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Episode 7: Willingness to be Imperfect · Generation F Podcast

• speaker-0: I a little bit of a sore throat. speaker-1: Just hammer that dinner down, huh? speaker-0: Yeah. I had I had ⁓ tuna fish sandwich. speaker-1: Ha ha ha. speaker-0: ⁓ did you ever listen to Yuri's podcast? speaker-1: I did not. This ⁓ Friday night we had ⁓ a ⁓ banquet. ⁓ it was actually a a ball, ⁓ St. Luke's ball. And then what were we doing Saturday? It was pretty much an all day thing, and then today was a blur as well. So it was two days of just craziness. And my I tried to reach out to my son too earlier in the week, ⁓ weekend, and just to even just to get a hold of him, just to talk to him. And they were up in New York pretty much the whole week. So it's like He is j they're just busy. You know what I mean? Their kids are right around that age and are trying to stay connected with ⁓ with her family as well, too, because they're all over the map. So it's don't take it as a slight I can't even get through to ⁓ man. speaker-0: No, I get I, you know, I can't even remember the questions I had asked them anyway. Yeah, it it was funny. You know, I had a lot of good responses to the previous episode and even the one before that. Yeah. But but the biggest ⁓ not complaint is people were like, We miss Phil. speaker-1: Come, Isaiah, come on, dude. speaker-0: I'm I'm serious. You you've amma you've amassed a little fan base 'cause speaker-1: You I'll s I'll say this and this is something that ⁓ There's several guys that that I'm just I've been there for ⁓ just just to listen to and learn. Cause I I th I think my generation, instead of opening our mouths and thinking we have the answers, it's it's definitely to our in our best interest just to listen to here what's happening. 'Cause so much is happening that we don't understand, we don't get. and a couple of gentlemen like yourself, you know, it it's late twenties, early thirties. And I'm just there for the same thing, new podcast, but it's like ⁓ I I think this is where God's got me. So I'm just listening. speaker-0: No, i you should be encouraged though, 'cause I mean you have a little fan club growing. speaker-1: Dude, I'd like to say three things in like a a forty-five minute clip, you know, and two of ⁓ are questions. speaker-0: Maybe I should start doing the same thing, maybe people like. speaker-1: You stop dude. ⁓ my ⁓ speaker-0: That's all right. That's why you have co hosts, right? Yeah. Let's distract you. They distract you from the host. speaker-1: Exactly why you have covers. Would you ⁓ my word, you're so bad, dude. It's that tuna fish, dude. It's trying to come back up, man. It's coming. speaker-0: Yeah, I used ⁓ Greek yogurt instead of mayonnaise and I think that was a problem. That's a speaker-1: Foul. You use Greek yogurt? speaker-0: Yeah, that's like ⁓ not a diet hack, but I don't know, people do that. speaker-1: ⁓ that's that's nest. And your stomach's trying to throw it back up. speaker-0: All right. Welcome to the Generation F podcast. F stands for faith. This show is about having real conversations on wrestling with faith between two different generations' perspectives. My name is Isaiah. I'm here with my co-host Phil. ⁓ today we are going into a new episode with the idea of willingness. I'm going to call it as a working title, willingness to be imperfect. And one of the things that I wanted to kind of cover today, Phil, with this episode is the idea of perfectionism. You know, this is actually based off of a ⁓ listener's question that was kind of submitted to us, ⁓ that kind of really kind of made this episode kind of materialize. And it's based off of the notion of actually I'll just read the question, it'll probably be easier. One second. Okay, so based off of the question for this episode below, what are your thoughts on the trendy term perfect perfectionism and how this may relate also to our human nature? I'll give you a little bit of a context before we break into it. So this idea with perfectionism is a viral idea within the past couple of years, I'd say, more so spiritually, but also psychologically, with holding yourself to you know, a higher standard. You know, I have a definition here of the issue. ⁓ perfectionism is the tendency to set unrealistically high standards for oneself or others, tr ⁓ tying self-worth to flawlessness, performance, and doing mistakes as failures. And this is kind of used in kind of like a spiritual lens, you know, one of the bigger scriptures that this movement is kind of looking at. Is in the book of Matthew and the New Testament. It's Matthew chapter five, verses 43 through 48. And I'm gonna start off by reading that before we kind of break into this idea of what perfectionism kind of means to us. And I also have some other supporting scriptures to kind of back up ⁓ you know, my answers, if you will. My children's Bible and Matthew chapter five. ⁓ verses 43. It says, You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemies. But I tell you, love your enemies. Pray for those who hurt you. If you do this, then you will be true sons of your father in heaven. Your father causes the sun to rise on good people and on bad people. Your father sends rain to those who do good and to those who do wrong. If you love only the people who love you. Then you will get no reward. Even the tax collectors do that. And if you are nice only to your friends, then you are no better than the other people. Even people without God are nice to their ⁓ even people without God are nice to their friends. So you must be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect. And that last line is really the crux to this. ⁓ I don't want to say movement, but definitely the problem. Where people are basing what I want to say, like an unrealistic expectation of their own faith, or wrestling with even attempting to have faith, with this idea of being perfect within the lens of ⁓ how Jesus, the you know, who was speaking in that passage, ⁓ had called us to be. And just to kind of give a little bit of a background on that scripture, you know, this is a part of what we call like the ⁓ you know, the Sermon on the Mount, like the Beatitudes, if you will, where he's giving a lot of different lectures and sermons to his followers, of people that are trying to hear more about what he has to say. You know, so that other passage is just like a snippet within this larger overarching theme. but that last little line is kind of basing this ⁓ you know, this movement, if you will. So, Phil, one of the things that I wanted you to talk about, if you will, again, this is probably very new to you. It's kind of new to me, but I'm kind of doing a little bit research on it. ⁓ the idea of spiritual perfectionism or even just psychological perfectionism, you know, what does that mean to you? ⁓ and later on we'll kind of break it down generationally. I don't want to cover that just yet, but just viscerally, when you hear those ⁓ definitions and that scripture, what are your first thoughts? speaker-1: So first thoughts for me while you were reading that scripture and then got to the end, ⁓ that last line. ⁓ it's a jolt, but it is definitely a reflection too on the two natures that we have if we're if we're followers of Jesus. ⁓ sin nature, but then there's also a heavenly nature that we get through adoption as sons and daughters. ⁓ And in Romans chapter seven, it talks about the conflict of those two natures and the fact that we are constantly at war. ⁓ with the the two natures are constantly at war within our star within our body, within our being. ⁓ and there's certain ways to have victory over that. But I think one of the key components as well, too, is is Satan, the enemy, very willing and capable to accuse us ⁓ And bring us back to this sin nature that that we were born into. and that's bet that was a struggle for me because when I was when when I was younger growing up, ⁓ we were taught, even in the church, ⁓ better to look good than to feel good, right? Better to the outward, the outward person is really what matters, the outward appearance. So if you have the appearance of being a spiritual person, if you have the appearance of following after God and do the right thing, say the right things. That's really what matters. And it that's so deadly. So deadly. ⁓ that's that's what I grew up with. ⁓ and so God, you know, had to start from the inside and renew and bring through certain ⁓ situations in my life to to bring bring that reality home. And some of them were difficult. They were painful. So that is my initial piece, ⁓ when you first read that, that that that very hit hit close to me. You know? speaker-0: Yeah, I like how you said ⁓ that you know that saying, you know, when you grew up where they wanted you rather look good than be good, you know, that's that's that's definitely an interesting angle that I didn't really understand generationally. But, you know, one of the things that I really want to kind of use this idea for is for people that you know, people that again like they're maybe on the fence about who Jesus is and and You know, they have friends that are believers or friends that you know are are trying to, you know, live by example, if you will. Yeah. And they come across that passage and they they don't know the Bible from from anything, right? You know, and their first visceral reaction is, well, I can't do that because it's unattainable, right? You know, that's kind of what I gather from a lot of the movement of perfectionism is It starts to kind of create ⁓ you know more of like a works-based mentality to things where like I have to physically be perfect because I'm measuring myself up to this line or to this idea that maybe I don't have the full context to. And I I do want to kind of break into the context that I have. I have something in the old and the new testament that I want to kind of use to support what you just said. ⁓ You know, but you know, for you, if if you had talked to someone and and maybe they were just kind of figuring out ⁓ how to navigate a Bible, or maybe they started even saying a few prayers at night, you know, in our last episode, you know, the guest that we had on did a really good job at kind of talking about that being the the first step to you know, a thousand miles, right? Like the ⁓ I I think he used the saying like You know, the the journey of a thousand miles begins with like one step, right? How would someone navigate that perceived obstacle within that line, you know? Yeah. speaker-1: Great, great question. ⁓ I don't have the answer to that right away. I just know I can I can share some of what ⁓ my experience was. And like I said, it was a it was a slow process of ⁓ and I'm gonna use the word transformation. So that's really changing from one person set of ideals to another. And the first set was definitely Almost almost like a a fake religion, almost like like a a cardboard cutout of of what it was supposed to be to to follow God. You know, and this is this is what I put up in front of other people. Almost like a wall. ⁓ so that's what people saw and it was definitely fake. ⁓ and then and then ⁓ I think the transformation, that change started when when ⁓ God brought, like I was talking about, some of those situations into my life that really challenged my understanding of who he was and really ⁓ allowed I allowed the Holy Spirit to come in and just start working in my life. And and and it's it is a daunting project too, because I'm talking in spiritual terms and a lot of a lot of people don't necessarily relate to that. But really, you know, you search for God, if you cry out to God, He is definitely faithful and He's not gonna leave you. ⁓ on the curb side. And that's kind of what I did. You know, I say I I was like, ⁓ this is not working. This cardboard cutout that that I put up in front of people ⁓ to make them think that I'm a believer, to make them think that I'm authentic and real, ⁓ it wasn't working. And then that started the process, this transformation that okay, well, what is real? What is what is the way to God? What is how do I how do I please Him? Or in your words from Matthew, there, how do I become perfect? ⁓ because that that's the command. ⁓ and it was a process. I I think a lot of things in myself had to come to terms with my inability to be perfect. And then God stepped in and that's really when the transformation started when I when I allowed God to take control ⁓ and really started to seek his his ⁓ presence, I think. And that's I don't know if that's ⁓ explaining it well or not, Isaiah. speaker-0: I I think it is. I mean it it I mean I feel like some people would say, you know, I don't necessarily fake it to make it, but you're almost going through the motions in a way until something starts to potentiate, you know. Yeah. Especially in the beginning. And I think that's it's a part of what we might call spiritual discipline, but also physical discipline. You know, if you're starting something new, you might not want to do it or you may not know how to do it, but You kind of go through the initial motions before it starts to make more sense, you know. It's like going for a run, like you don't know exactly how to run, but you kind of go outside and start moving your feet really fast and and try and figure out things on the fly. I wanted to go into this one part in the old testament, and we're gonna go into the new, and we're gonna kind of talk about how this kind of supports the idea of. I don't want to say diffusing the message, but giving clarity to how people should interpret it. So in the old testament, I have the book of Isaiah. ⁓ it's gonna be Isaiah 55. And again, most people, if you open your Bible midway through, it it kind of already goes to Isaiah because it's a pretty large book. ⁓ in Isaiah 55, verse 8. Again, this Isaiah the prophet's kind of speaking on behalf of, you know, God through him. He says, The Lord says, Your thoughts are not like my thoughts, your ways are not like my ways. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways. And my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. Rain and snow fall from the sky. They don't return without watering the ground. They cause the plants to sprout and grow. And the plants make seeds for the farmer. And from these seeds, people have bread to eat. The words I say do the same thing. They will not return to me empty. They will make the things happen that I want to happen. They succeed in doing what I send them to do. That passage might come off as poetic in nature. You know, a lot of you know the book of Isaiah has like a certain cadence to it. By how it was written. But one of the things that I really like about this passage is really that first line. You know, even if we can't even get that far into it without getting lost mentally, you know, your thoughts are not like my thoughts, you know, in my translation, that's what it says. And it's this idea that even though like the the Son of God, Jesus calls us to be perfect, there's this comparative lens that even if we're trying to be perfect like Jesus, we're still not as perfect as God could have been you know, could be, right? You know, there's like this notion that, you know, no matter how hard we try, there's still this divide, right? So that already kind of separates this notion that we are expected to be supernaturally perfect in everything that we do. at least in an unfair, you know, expectation, right? ⁓ you know, another thing that I really kind of see here is is this this idea that God is kind of using this comparison between ⁓ you know my thoughts are higher than your thoughts, you know that you know, he's using this like alliteration of the sky and rain and snow. Whereas even if we even if we shoot Towards perfection, we're still, you know, thousands of miles away from what it could be, right? And that's one of the things that I really get from reading that passage. And that's why I kind of picked it ⁓ or chose it. You know, Phil, what are your thoughts on that little, ⁓ little excerpt, a little eight, eight verses? speaker-1: Don't you think that brings perspective? I say you know because we're never gonna be perfect. We just aren't. You know what I mean? Because we're we've got a human body, we've got a human ⁓ a human thought process. There's really nothing in us that that would be able to achieve perfection, ⁓ in God's perspective but but the command is still there, right? Be perfect even as I am perfect. And and that's that's the tough one. I like your I liked your comment from before when you said, you know. ⁓ fake it till you make it. And and there's some there's some substance to that. You know what I mean? Because I th that that resonated with me because that was my experience a lot of once once I started this path on transformation said, away with the cardboard cutout and let's let's really follow God. ⁓ there was there was times where I'm like, ⁓ this is not going to work or ⁓ you know I'm not I'm not feeling it. I'm I'm just not it's not working. And and I just kept going, just kept going. And it was persistence. ⁓ and I really think that was God as well, too, just drawing me in. ⁓ but we're never I don't we're we're never gonna be perfect. But the command is still there, be perfect. And that's a tough one to reconcile. How do you how do you explain that to somebody? You know what I mean? And in ways that that are outside scripture or you know what I mean? That's a scriptural concept, you know. speaker-0: Yeah, I I think well, one of the things that I'm thinking in my head is, you know, the word fake it to make it probably wasn't the best choice because most people, if they fake it, they just fake it, right? They don't make it. So I think just so the the audience can kind of understand that difference is, you know, you're not expected to actually fake it. It's more so the idea that Whenever you're trying to create some kind of a transformation, even in the physical realm, there needs to be a you know a level of inertia, right? Where, you know, you know, momentum needs to kind of start from some fixed point, right? Where it's you're not just automatically at the finish line. There needs to be some kind of forward movement to get to that speed or get to that distance. And and very much the same spiritually, where it's You know, maybe the idea of faking it is more so doing so ⁓ without understanding of where you're going, maybe not having your whole heart into it because you don't know what to expect. But there is this difference between faking it and not truly believing in what you're doing, versus having some sort of faith in the idea. But you're just kind of going through the motions because you just don't know what's gonna happen next. Right. And I just kind of wanted to clarify that because I was in mind jail with that statement. but to kind of really just play the ⁓ the audience member. ⁓ I would even ask, like, why do you think Jesus said that? Right. You know, it's it when I read that, I have my perspectives and my thoughts based off of how how much of the Bible that I know, but You know, if I'm talking to someone and they ask that question, like, ⁓ well, Jesus said that I have to be perfect, you know, why do you think he said that? You know, why do you think he said that without some kind of immediate ⁓ description or breakdown like he would do in the later books where there was some kind of ⁓ you know allegory or you know, parable where there was some kind of ⁓ actual description of what he was saying? speaker-1: And I'm back to and I don't know if you want to edit this this part as well too, but I'm back to this Romans chapter seven, Isaiah. And the struggle between good and evil, the two natures. And at the end of that chapter, Paul says, Wretched man that I am, who's going to set me free from the body of this death? So there's a recognition that there's a lot ⁓ of struggling and warfare, even within our own selves. And that that's a hard thing to comprehend. It's like, okay, there's a good and there's an evil, but it's all wrapped up in the same person. And that warfare is just continual. That that alone is is a daunting thing to think about. And then his question who's who who will set me free or who's going to win this battle? ⁓ thanks be to God. ⁓ who through through Christ Jesus our Lord, ⁓ who set me free from, you know, this battle between the good and evil. And I and I think that's for me, that was the start point of understanding this whole idea of perfection, because it's really not our perfection that we put on. You know, when we become believers, when we accept Jesus, ⁓ we accept his personhood, his, you know, who he is, and that's perfection. And so we get that just by being sons ⁓ or and daughters of his. That's something that's that's his nature that's that's kind of handed over to us. ⁓ so that's what I would stand on. You know, if somebody asks me that or where's your perfection, that's in Jesus. Because in this body there's there's not a whole lot of perfection. speaker-0: Yeah, I also think ⁓ it's okay to just not have the answer. You know, and yeah. And that's that's something that I always try and do as a coach. If if someone asks me a question, I'll just tell them, like, I don't know. Like I'm gonna find out for you somehow. And and I you know, I have my theories, but one of the things that I try and be very careful of, especially externally, is overusing my own interpretations for things, you know, because I could be right, I could be wrong, but I don't want to have to make someone else's mind up for them. And when I read that line and I understand the context to that kind of a movement, at least virally or you know online, where people are afraid of of faith because they just don't feel like they can ever amount to what's expected of them to be like quote unquote holy. I would just say I don't know. You know, I like You know, I I don't know exactly why he said that, but there are like you said, you know, s scriptures that we're using to kind of give a comparative to what he could have meant. But you know, why he actually used that word, you know, if you if you had to ask me, you know, I would I would see it more as this idea of ⁓ You know, there used to be this saying by this one coach that I kn knew he would say, ⁓ you know, if you if you shoot for the stars and miss, you'll end up on the moon, right? Yeah. And so it's kind of that notion where if you have such a high goal as perfection and you come short of it, you're still in a better spot than you are currently. But one of the things that we'll talk about in a later segment is how people are just really struggling with this idea because it becomes, you know, triggering in a way and it becomes self-defeating to have that ⁓ expectation of perfection. But one of the scriptures that I picked in the New Testament that is kind of similar to your ⁓ you know to what you kind of grabbed onto was in Philippians. It's actually Philippians three, ⁓ verses twelve through sixteen. And again, Philippians is a very, very small book. It's only like four or five chapters and it's The very end of the Bible. So if you if you kind of move too fast, you'll miss it. ⁓ but I'm gonna read. And it says, ⁓ there's like kind of a title header and it says continuing toward our goal. This is Paul again. This is an epistle of Paul. It says, I do not mean that I'm already as God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal, but I continue trying to reach it and make it mine. Christ wants me to do that. That is the reason Christ made me that made me his. Brothers, I know that I have not yet reached that goal, but there is one thing I always do. I forget the things that are past. I try as hard as I can to reach the goal that is before me. I keep trying to reach the goal and get the prize. That prize is mine because God called me through Christ to the life above. Another highlighted verse is all of us who have grown spiritually to be mature should think this way too. And if there are things you do not agree with, God will make them clear to you. But we should continue following the truth we already have. Right. I think that's like in my opinion the biggest ⁓ you know lightning bolt when I read that last little verse. You know, the it's the nature of If there are already things that you just don't understand, right, you know, God will make them clear to you, right? Because they weren't clear to me when I read it initially. ⁓ and and they might be completely difficult for anyone else to understand unless they've kind of spent the time to wrestle with these ideas. But, you know, that is, you know, Paul, you know, I mean, obviously he came from, you know, a life of ⁓ oppressing the church and doing horrible, heinous things, and then he became this amazing ⁓ you know person to be used for growing the faith. But even, you know, in the church, we kind of model ourselves ⁓ after how Paul kind of did a lot of different things, right? You know, he's kind of he he he's a role model, if you will, you know, at least in in certain denominations. But even he says that. ⁓ like I I didn't even do what I was supposed to do. Right. And so there's this nature that, okay, we have in the gospels, Jesus gives that command of okay, I want you to be perfect. And then we have in the Old Testament, there's a lot of different things I could have pulled from, but there's this idea that God's saying it's all right, no matter how high you shoot, I'm still above that. Right. And then we have Paul saying, like, hey, listen, I'm not even coming close to where I'm supposed to be. And you're supposed to be modeling yourself after me, right? At least in a physical, I mean more attainable way, because you know, to those people he was a little bit easier to model after, you know, given the state of the church. You know, so w how how does that kind of tie into this idea if you if you if you could, Phil? speaker-1: I I would like to read one verse further, ⁓ in Philippians three there, verse fifteen. So ⁓ my version says, Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude, and if anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also. So he's he's referring to there, there is what what is that word perfect? What what what does that mean? You know what I mean? I don't know. Right. He just got done describing himself as less than perfect. And then and then he says, ⁓ by the way, everyone who's perfect I I don't I don't Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, and and that's why I love this podcast is because we don't have the we don't have to have the answers to wrestle with these ideas, right? Yeah. But we clearly see the answer ⁓ in real time being resolved if we know how to navigate ⁓ the Bible. But it still leaves room for, you know, difficulty in some people when they're reading some of the some of the gospels because they're trying to, you know, do I take this literally? Like what does he really mean? And I think it's important to have that lack of clarity because that is, in my opinion, where where where God kind of comes through, right? If you have this ⁓ sincere unawareness about what you're you're trying to learn, you know, you would you would ask God, you know, to give some kind of guidance through these words or an idea. and like the my previous guest said on the last episode, it's you know You're gonna get an answer, but it's not gonna happen in the timeline that you want or it's not gonna show up in the way that you think it's gonna show up. It's not gonna be use the analogy, ⁓ you know, like ⁓ like like speed mail or or something very quick. You know, it's it's gonna come in a different form and and you have to be willing ⁓ and aware enough to kind of keep your eyes out to see how it comes to you. One of the things that I wanted to kind of transition to is I feel like we could spend a lot of time on this conversation because I I really don't completely know how deep this ⁓ movement kind of goes into. I was reading some articles online about psychological analysis on perfectionism and how it pertains to ⁓ you know, the religious world. ⁓ I'm not I'm not like read up enough on it, but I think one of the biggest things that I've seen in the question below that I have here, and with the nature of the scriptures that we were reading is this idea that, okay, like, you know, perfection, you know, is contextual in some way, right? Depending on who's saying it and how they're using it to to gauge our understanding of like what's being asked, right. You know, Jesus called us to be perfect like him because he wanted us to model ourselves after him. You know, because that was the only exposure that those people had to, you know, God in the flesh, right? God on earth, right? And in the old testament, there is no physical manifestation. So there's a lot of poetic language used to give an understanding of. how to endure and how to persevere, but still know that you're you're you're not there yet or you're you're nowhere near there. Right. And then in the New Testament, when you go further down, you know, the books, you see Paul, he even kind of reiterates that in almost like this ⁓ this book ended version of that thought where he's like, Hey, like listen, I'm with you guys. Like I'm right beside you. And I don't even haven't figured out. You know, so it If anything, it's kind of encouraging, depending on how you look at it. Yeah. And when you see that spiritual perfectionism, it's you know, when we go into this generational ⁓ analysis, I'm actually gonna kind of go over it first because this is gonna tie into that idea. You know, when I see the millennial, you know, Gen Z, even to some degree, Gen X, and then I guess you have Gen Alpha, who I'm not really that in tune with. ⁓ you know, the idea of perfectionism, you know, becomes psychologically triggering because everything about the world that we live in has expected expectations for us, right? You know, it's like, ⁓ like you have to have you know, X amount of degrees for you to be financially debt for the rest of your life, or you have to ⁓ you know, work eight hours a week to not be able to afford a house, you know. So it's like these expectations are just ⁓ you know, insurmountable to some people, right? And when you have something like faith, which to most people they perceive as as a help, right? It's it's something that makes their life better. It makes makes their ability to kind of handle situations better. ⁓ even though that's just very surface level faith. when you throw that wrench in there, like that idea of perfectionism, it almost separates people from the idea that God is attainable. Right. You know, because okay, like my boss, my family, you know, my girlfriend, my boyfriend, whatever, you know, my spouse, like they have all these expectations of me. And now I have to align myself with this supernatural, like walk that has even more expectations for me. Right. Because that's how they're they're perceiving it as is like a external stress, right? Where it's like, okay, I have to fulfill physically ⁓ these things for me to be good enough, right? To be valued. Right. And that and that's what I kind of see amongst my peers is it's this ⁓ it's this value thing where it's I need to ⁓ you know either go to church or donate or do this or you know ⁓ sell my house or whatever it is like there's this physical action that is required of them to win favor in the eyes of God or in the eyes of their peers, right? ⁓ how does your generation kind of press receive that message? Like what are some ideas you know that you can kind of ⁓ use You know, kind of similar to how I spoke of that. Yeah. speaker-1: I I would as you were talking there, I'm I'm trying to think of ⁓ how I would say it because I think the the tenets are kind of the same. The th you know, some of the things that we struggled with, the expectations, definitely vastly different, you know. ⁓ we dealt with our fathers and grandfathers saying, you know, you're never gonna be able to work eighty hours a week. You're never gonna be able to do what we did when we were, you know, we were the greatest generation or we were, you know. We worked so hard and you guys have it so good ⁓ because of that, you know. And so there was this almost ⁓ a counterpunch where, you know, we kind of had to deal with that, ⁓ the older generation for us ⁓ telling us that we were never good enough. ⁓ and then along came my relationship with God and like I talked about earlier, there was definitely some missteps early on where I was trying to be ⁓ the perfect person on the outside. And the reality of the transformation was me coming to grips with ⁓ there's other people around me that are struggling with the same things. There's other people my age that that have been told, ⁓ here's what it looks like or here's what it means to be a follower of God, and that that's not necessarily accurate. And so I I came to a point where I had to say, ⁓ those things are wrong. And and I wanna I wanna I wanna step away from that, but I also wanna step into something of a real faith in God. ⁓ and how do I do that? You know, I I wrestled with that because I'm you know, in the same way, that you know, you're finding this out for yourself. And until I recognized that, you know, and there was a question from me, how do I do this? ⁓ and it was scary, and I came face to face with ⁓ this is gonna require a life change for me. ⁓ and there's gonna be a lot of scary things because of it. There's gonna be people are gonna think differently of me because I've made this choice to follow God. I'm not gonna be doing certain things, ⁓ not because I don't want to or not because I wanna try and put up a facade, but because that's what God requires of me. And once that once that initial reality hit, it was hard. You know, it was like coming to grips with yourself and saying, ⁓ okay, I'm I'm I'm done with this person, this fake person. I'm done with it. ⁓ I I need to make a decision. ⁓ I don't know how to get to point B. ⁓ and that that's God, obviously. But I'm just gonna I'm just gonna make the decision and start walking. ⁓ and and that was a hard thing. And that's something that's that's different for each person, I think. You know what mean? ⁓ 'cause there's no roadmap, you know, it it requires faith. ⁓ when when you're following after God. And it's hard. I would say that. It's not it's not ⁓ you know, I think a trigger point or, you know, trigger triggering is a is a big word now where people are, you know, struggling with something and and don't know how to deal with it. ⁓ we had the same thing. We just didn't call it triggering. It was it was just a struggle or it was it was it was a difficult situation. and you had to make a decision. Well th this is not going to derail me. You I'm gonna I'm gonna keep moving on. ⁓ gonna keep following after God. Don't necessarily know what that means, but and and the further I got into that following after God and there a relationship started where it wasn't just me screaming for help. It w it was him reaching out and it's like the direction slowly started to come ⁓ and faith started to build. ⁓ I don't know if that's helpful or not, Isaiah. speaker-0: No, I I think it was. Yeah. I mean, I just have a lot of thoughts going in my head right now. I i yeah, when I hear like that word triggering, like one of the things that always kind of comes to my mind is ⁓ like something that's programmed. Yeah. Right. You know, it's you think of like Pavlov's dog, it's like that bell, right? Yeah. And and I think it's it's different now. And and I give that word ⁓ you know respect in the sense that it's different now than it was back then because there wasn't this repetitious cycle of information that's just constantly bombarding you. You know. speaker-1: But I can't I can't relate to that. I I I that's totally new to me, you know? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, and you a lot of the people that I talk to that are, you know, boomers and or what have you, it's you know, when they grew up, they had like the six o'clock news, they had a newspaper and that was it. You know, it was kind of out of sight, out of mind. And you know, I live in a world where, you know, my phone, my laptop, my my TV, you know, my my watch, everything's telling me something's wrong's happening, right? So it's like it's very Pavlovian in the sense that no matter what's going on at any given point. there is some kind of physical, spiritual, emotional reaction I'm getting from it. Right. And and that's why I think the nature of perfectionism is such a a younger generation ⁓ division to faith is because we already have so much sensitivity to external stimuli, right? We're already so conditioned to have knee-jerk speaker-1: This is speaker-0: you know, doctor's office reactions to things because of our programming, because of how things have evolved over the past ten, twenty, twenty five years, right? ⁓ and I think I mean speaker-1: ⁓ think God was surprised by this information age and the rapidly intensifying availability of information. Do you think that caught him by surprise? speaker-0: No, I don't think so. ⁓ more so because I think we have like a skewed perception of like what history is in the sense that what we see information they also had in their own day, but it was just in a different form, right? Yeah. And that's my opinion. I mean I could I could be a crazy person, but you know I like you know, that's the way I kind of see it is we we like to kind of give ourselves this kind of weird ⁓ pat on the back for the technological age that we live in and we think that nothing has ever come close to that. But you know, I I just don't really believe in that. ⁓ but I I think one of the things that is different from other generations is how ⁓ how we interface with things. You know, and I feel like in the past Maybe you have to walk a couple of blocks to get, you know, your indoctrination or your or your programming. You know, now it's like right in our pocket. So there is this difference between ⁓ you know, how we interface with technology versus not having the technology thousands of years ago. Yeah. ⁓ But I again I don't think he's surprised. And and I think that's why it takes conversations like this in this age, to kind of reach people that are feeling the same thing where they're they're realizing listen, like I I tried church, I tried opening the Bible, I tried praying, but you know, it it triggered me. It triggered me because of XYZ, you know, and and the biggest questions that I would have is like, okay, like, ⁓ you know, wh why and how? And like is there something that, you know, can be, you know, contextualized for you. Because I think that's the big thing. It's the difference between a dog whistle and another noise is the fact that the dog knows it's a whistle versus another noise, right? So a lot of times when we have like these visceral reactions to things, it's it's based off of the fact that we're associating it to something. You know, so I think having having the conversation where okay, if you're having this very difficult reaction to something, whether it be in the Bible, like Much like Jesus did, right? Like he used ⁓ you know, parables to talk to people. Like, what's what's the parable for my neighbor? What's the parable for my my friend at the gym? And maybe it's not a story, maybe it's just some other way of communication that we've talked about in the past, you know? It's like the negotiation aspect of communication. It's what do I have to do to allow you to ⁓ receive this information without it feeling ⁓ Like it's too much, you know. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ that one from my experience, it is it is a weighty thing to follow after God. 'Cause you're you're basically handing over your life, you know, and and that's a scary thing, you know. ⁓ but well worth it. Well worth it. You know, I I wouldn't have ⁓ looking back, wouldn't have traded that for the world. It gives it gave me so much peace. It gave me in the in the midst of the tough times. in the midst of the not knowing ⁓ and and relationships crashing down, it it it sustained me. It it definitely held me up. So I th I think that it's sometimes we need to be willing to wade into those moments that trigger us, you know, or or are make us afraid. and that's where we lean into God all the more. And I th that that was my experience. it it hurts going through it. And it r it it's not I'm not I'm not trying to sugarcoat that at all. I think Isaiah, you would you would say the same thing. It's it's definitely not fun at times, but it's worth it. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, and and I definitely agree with that. I think one of the most important things that we can do ⁓ in general is giving, you know, a sense of encouragement, you know, because my job is to ask questions and maybe have commentary, but I try and reserve opinions as much as I can. But the biggest thing that I feel that we are in the position to do, I wanna I don't wanna say call to do, but in the position to do. Is give some kind of an actionable step that would be of some kind of encouragement or be something positive, right? You know, so one of the biggest things that I've kind of been listening to over the past couple of episodes and hearing everyone kind of talk and and say very common things. You know, as we kind of wrap up this ⁓ short series on willingness, it's you know, you do have to be willing to Make the change even if you're not ready for it. Right. And and much like Yuri said, you know, it's it's a one step at a time kind of an idea. And I think in most cases, ⁓ the biggest takeaway that I have from everything, it's you know, you know, you know, Jesus kind of says to come as you are, right? And I think people take that idea and they think of it in a f physical place where maybe they think that they can go to the church and dress up how they normally dress and and that can mean that too but I also believe that it means to just try to insert something that you feel you can you can reach out for exactly in the position that you're at, right? In in the safety of your own apartment or in the safety of your own home, you know, come as you are, you know, you know say a prayer that doesn't make sense. You know, say a prayer that doesn't have structure. Right. Read a verse that has no like connection to a chapter that you understand. Maybe just open the book randomly. It's not, you know, it's it's not something that I feel is a is a negative you know suggestion to you know to most people. You know, it's sometimes like the the best way to create, you know, you know, some kind of ⁓ you know, order in your life is through some kind of spontaneity. And I think that ⁓ God will understand that because he understands that you're trying to find order, you know, and he's try and you're trying to find him. You know, so just using that ⁓ that willingness to just go through that next step, whether it's ⁓ a few words at night, you know, while you're eating, you know, while you're driving, you you're reading a verse or two a day, you're trying to ask questions about it, you're Google searching it. I don't I don't really care. So you're you're trying to figure out who God is. And I think that's what God wants us to do is is to wrestle with the idea of who He is. speaker-1: Well said. Well said. Yeah. I like hearing you talk. I really do. ⁓ let me let me ask you something. You're you're you're not recording any or you can, yeah, it doesn't matter, but I I speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: This the generational angst. S some of some of the things that we had to deal with when I was growing up. Dude, you were dealing with emotional stress. There was no counseling. There was no people that understood psychology. Not that that's pertinent, but as far as the helps that are available today. And we didn't have anything else. You know, we were just like you you you needed. You know, you need to depend on God. And I think it really brought about that authentic faith that it was just like, This is real. This is this is this is my lifeline. It doesn't look pretty, but this is this is what's gonna get me through. Do you think that's out there today? Or do you think there's many other options, many other paths that that are more easily accessed? speaker-0: I think it's a difficult question, ⁓ not to answer, but just to You know, the difficulty with it comes with the idea that just because there's a lot of options for something doesn't mean that it's good for you. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. It's it's kinda like when you go to a restaurant and the menu's just too big. Like you just you you never get anything you want. speaker-1: Right. That's the point that I'm trying to make, dude. That's that's exactly ⁓ and it's your information overload where this word triggered comes from. It's like wow, that that that's a real thing, dude. That really is. speaker-0: Yeah, and I don't wanna be dismissive of of certain things because obviously ⁓ certain certain things do help other people. But you know, when I look at ⁓ a lot of the resolutions at large, whether it be medicinal or psychological or ⁓ you know therapy based, you have to kind of ask yourself like where's the proof? speaker-1: Да speaker-0: that this is truly helping a lot of people. It might be out there. I might be completely ignorant and I'm very willing to eat my words. But you know, it's just like the notion of, you know, I I have experienced a lot of these different ⁓ realms, if you will, whether it be, you know, you know, psychiatry, psychology, therapy, rehabilitation, all these different things. And when I've been through these realms, you see more people like fall fall off the the ship versus you know making it to dry land. speaker-1: That needs that needs to be said in some format at some point. 'Cause I think that's that would be highly beneficial for a crowd that's that's struggling. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I I think it kinda lends with the idea of what's you know, how do you actually become free from something? Right. And that is kind of the the elevators, you know, sales pitch of faith where it's like, okay, I can give you something that can really ⁓ have a lasting, you know, impression on on your whole entire life. but it's solely dependent on what you do with it. Right. It's it's not just like a a potion where if you say a couple of prayers and go to a couple of services, then everything goes away. It's yeah, it's something where you have to work on growing. It's like a garden. Like if you don't water the plant, it will die. speaker-1: Definitely not that. ⁓ I had another piece and it might be where you want to start. I don't know, just look at it's it's the woman at the well. You know, did I talk about that last week? ⁓ you know, he's he's coming in, has perfect knowledge of who she is before he even talks to her and yet leads with questions and compassion and saves saves his admonishment for the end. You know, go and sin no more. Was that a you know you talked about it, which I thought was right on dude. that was in context, go and sin no more in that particular area. Because there w the the the notion that we're gonna not gonna sin anymore is is not not realistic. speaker-0: Yeah, and it that's like interesting you sa you should say that because that was a that's the second part of the question that was asked, ⁓ which could be like another episode at some point, but they had asked me, Is it possible to be free from sin? Right? And it's a difficult thing to answer because you have to define how you're interpreting sin. Like is it are you talking about a collective sin or are you talking about an individual sin? You know, the idea of it being an individual sin, like there's something that you're specifically struggling with, yes, yes, you can be delivered from it, of course. But if we're talking about the whole entire nature of sin, that like every morning you wake up and you look at your neighbor and you just want them to fall down the steps, like you know, it's it you can't avoid That aspect where like you're in like an ever-changing climate where and and I think that's where like the perfectionism thing kind of stems from is this idea that people are wrestling with the idea of like obviously sin is this bad connotation that we do, whether you acknowledge that it exists or you don't, and they kind of kind of assign it to this idea of perfectionism because they're afraid of the ramifications of it or they're afraid that, you know, well, I want to be perfect because I don't want to sin. I don't want to do wrong. I don't want to be not, you know, see is, you know, seen in the eyes of God in, you know, a certain way. And I think that can be very difficult unless someone understands what grace really means, not just by definition, but but what it means biblically. And also ⁓ how God uses like our brokenness for his benefit, right? ⁓ and it's a very speaker-1: You're gonna talk about that? speaker-0: Yeah, I think so. I I I think so. Like it it's it's nuanced. It's nuanced because people want these very black and white answers. You know, they they want to have a yes or no to things. In most cases, like yes and yes. It's like you know, it's like, okay, these two things can coexist at the same time. It just kind of depends on like how we're looking at it. And I I I liken it to the idea that If you can conceptualize God being infinite and he lives outside of time and space, like how is that possible? ⁓ but in in our world, we only see things in like three dimensions. There's other dimensions than three, right? Absolutely. Science science will back that up. You know, they've they've counted up to like 20 plus dimensions. So if you have that idea that there's like multiple, you know, you know, dimension, you know, dimensions two things. There's also multiple dimensions to doing raw where it's like there's the things that are the controllable and the uncontrollable. And there's the things that you can be completely free from. And there's the things that just kind of evolve and morph into different things as you grow up, right? Where maybe you're not a drug addict, but maybe you ⁓ have resentments in your heart towards your spouse because they didn't wash the dishes, right? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: You know, these are still seen in the eyes of God as the same thing. So I I think in another episode or maybe a couple of episodes from that we can kinda go down that path 'cause It's very inside baseball. I'm trying to make sure that a lot of the episodes that we do can be almost like if someone didn't know anything about God they can listen to get something from. speaker-1: And I I heard that. But don't you think this is an entry point to God? You know, because if people immediately grapple onto this sin. They they know that God is dealing with sin and that's the first point of interface. You know what I mean? Okay, I I'm I'm I have I've no understanding. Therefore speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite like descriptions of sin is like sin is actually like a Greek word. and it's it's a term that comes from archery, right? And essentially what it means is missing the mark, like you're missing the bullseye, right? And I think when people think of this word sin, it it has like this like instant you know satanic connotation, which it definitely is connected to it, right? I'm not gonna say it's not. But I think what people misinterpret sometimes is the idea that if we all sin, like we all kind of fall short of something. Even if you don't believe in God, like you fall short every day. You know, maybe you go to work five minutes late, like you fell short of being there on time, right? You know, so there's just this complete nature that people reject when it comes to ⁓ a religious, you know, lens for them doing wrong, even though they can admit that they do wrong outside of religion, right? Yeah. It's like a little philosophical debate, but ⁓ yeah, I'm I'm willing to have it. speaker-1: I think I think it'd be worth it, dude. Yeah. I'm listening. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, no, I I I think it'd be good. I just I have to kinda I gotta organize some thoughts on it 'cause I don't wanna just kinda go into it dry. speaker-1: will require some brain weights because that that's a that's a tough one. That's a tough one. speaker-0: Yeah I I think I have the ability to do it. It's just more so I want it to have some kind of structure to it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. All right. We're gonna wrap it up this ⁓ week. You know, I've done two shows back to back, which is ⁓ a nice little PR for me. ⁓ definitely gonna pivot into a new series next week, which I'm kind of wrestling with right now because there's ⁓ I have to make sure I structure it properly or else I'll probably end up getting ⁓ a lot of flack for it at some point or another. But we'll we'll kind of cross that road when we get there. I I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. I feel as if we're getting a little bit more comfortable with the format. And yeah, hopefully it's it's an enjoyable show for most. It's enjoyable for us because we get to we get to talk, you know, we get We get to kind of wrestle these ideas. I hope you guys enjoyed it. You know, if you do have any questions, feel free to email at us at generationfpodcast at gmail.com. This can be comments, ⁓ suggestions, questions, anything at all. ⁓ you know, we do use some of the questions that I get from outside sources for the episodes. So that is very helpful and topical discussion. I hope you guys enjoyed listening and we hope to see you guys next week. Bye.