Latest / Radically Genuine / 107. Psychology of Freedom, Groupthink and Fragilization w/ Dr. Chloe Carmichael
Transcript
- Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. The dangers of censorship and the stifling of free speech are insidious threats that corrode the very fabric of our interconnected society, the suppression of diverse voices, whether by governments, tech giants, or self-appointed moral gatekeepers, not only shackle the essential tenets of free thought and expression, but also cast a sinister shadow. over our collective mental wellbeing. Censorship is a Trojan horse that once unleashed ravages not only our individual freedoms, but also our shared capacity for meaningful dialogue, social harmony, and psychological equilibrium. Censorship along political lines tends to wield a profound and often divisive impact on societies when those empower curtail dissenting voices and manipulate information to serve their political agendas. They undermine the very essence of democracy. Citizens are deprived of the right to access diverse perspectives and make informed decisions, leading to a polarized and uniformed electorate. Such censorship fosters a climate of distrust, where the government's actions are shielded from scrutiny and alternative viewpoints are suppressed. It can also exacerbate political polarization as individuals retreat into echo chambers, reinforcing their preexisting beliefs and deepening ideological divides. The impact of political censorship therefore goes beyond stifling free speech. It jeopardizes the very foundation of open democratic societies and can lead to a fracturing of social cohesion and political stability. I believe that we live in perilous times where it's been proven that our government has censored medical experts, journalists, and big tech have colluded to restrict the flow of information. It's nearly impossible to find too many psychologists out there speaking on this issue, but we found one. Her name is Dr. Chloe Carmichael. She's a clinical psychologist. Sean (02:27.311) author. She has an extremely diverse background. She's the author of Nervous Energy, Harness, The Power of Your Anxiety and has been featured on VH1, Inside Edition, ABC Nightline, many other television programs. She's been quoted in New York Times, Forbes, Vanity Fair, Shape, Cosmopolitan, Rolling Stone, and other print media. Dr. Carmichael is also a consultant at Baker McKenzie, the third largest law firm in the world. She's on the advisory board member appearing for Women's Health Magazine. She's a featured expert for Psychology Today. She's also a certified yoga instructor and has also completed coursework in Buddhism and meditation and studied underworld renowned experts. And Sean, after reading her accomplishments in her bio, I've come to the conclusion I'm a profound underachiever. Dr. Chloe, welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (03:27.136) Roger, it's so funny to hear you say that because I feel like a profound underachiever whenever I listen and watch what you are doing. So I was just saying before we came on the air that I really admire just your courage and clarity to say the things that it feels like we're not supposed to say. And as you said, as psychologists, there's so much reason why we should talk things through. have our open dialogue for reasons I'm sure we'll get into. Thank you for all that you do. Sean (04:00.743) Now you're so kind, thank you. I'm really curious to start with maybe better understanding your own personal motivation and decision making to take on this issue from a different lens. When we talk about in particular, the psychology of freedom in general, but in particular censorship and free speech, you kind of stand out as someone who's willing to take on those issues. Tell me about your motivation. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (04:24.468) Yes. Okay. So it's been like a free speech journey for me. So when I was eight years old, I told everybody that I was going to live in New York and be on television. I was growing up in a small town in the Midwest and that was my dream. Yeah. And so I did in 2001 as a young woman, you know, moved to New York. And as you mentioned, I was a yoga teacher and then Sean (04:38.563) Check. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (04:51.472) Through that work, I realized I was very interested in the body-mind connection and the human mind. So I got my PhD in clinical psychology. I always had a fair amount of just insecurity as well about finances. So when I wanted to start building my business and I started getting media attention, which was a great surprise to me, I... was very much aware that the media is going to be super duper liberal. Like that there would be certain things I could say, certain things I could not say. I had the same experience trying to get. I graduated, you know, Phi Beta Kappa from Columbia University and then, you know, from a very good PhD program in clinical psychology, which again, I could never have gotten through those programs with the grades and relationships I did. If I didn't laugh at the jokes that I didn't think were funny about, you know, I mean, it's amazing what people in academic environments that are supposed to be, you know, sensitive to different viewpoints, diverse viewpoints, they make it very clear, you know, which viewpoints are okay and which are not. And I had very little power. I was a marginalized person, you might even say. And so I just, I knew I didn't have the power to speak at that time. Sean (05:50.796) Heh. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (06:13.172) Same thing, you know, when I'm trying to build my business, started getting some media attention, I'd never went in the media, said anything that I didn't think was true, but I also would only kind of speak in spaces and topic areas where I knew I wasn't going to step on any toes. So I was ultra, you know, judicious about that. And that worked fine, you know, I mean. My practice, I started it in 2012, it's 2023 now, and that's great. And everything was going fine pretty much with that little routine. And then in 2020, they wanted, my son was three at the time. I still get involved talking about it because it was, he had stayed home with me and my husband for his first few years of life. That was really important to us. But we also knew that he was getting close to age four. And so it was time we had planned, you know, for him to start going to kind of a preschool type place that September of twenty twenty. And as we all know, March of twenty is when the pandemic hit. And New York, especially, I mean, you know, like it was pretty intense in terms of the lockdown. And they wanted, you know, the school. I remember the woman calling me and saying, I'm really sorry, but the governor is going to make us mask. Even the three-year-olds, he's going to have to wear a mask. Everyone in the class is going to have to wear a mask. And for me, as a clinical psychologist, I was like, OK, there's so many reasons why that's wrong. They're developing speech and language. They're learning to read sh**. Their self-esteem is developing. So if nobody notices or responds to their sh**, nonverbal facial expressions, which at three is like huge. You know, he's not going to have a process about why that's happening. He's going to feel that he doesn't matter. And so I'm just getting started. I'm sure we all know why it's incredibly foolish to, you know, just start masking all those children. It really irritates me to this day. But so anyway, I knew I couldn't do it. I couldn't have his first time out of the house, you know, be in this. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (08:32.336) crazy scenario. And at the same time, you know, the lockdowns were so intense that I also couldn't really bring him into any true normal community, even going to the grocery store. People do double masks, double gloves. I mean, at that time, it was nuts. And so we frickin moved to Florida. So this was, you know, October of 2020. that we moved to Florida. And it was in August that this very nice woman, she felt bad too from the school. She was like, I completely disagree. I would never wanna do this, but we have no choice. It's the law. So by October, we moved to Florida. And I wrote to answer your question of like how I sort of came out of the closet as having heterodox viewpoints. I needed to just put it all down on paper. All the reasons why masking children, little children, just unmasked like that is just wrong. And so I wrote it all down in an organized format and I sent it to a few psychologists that I knew because honestly it was so clear to me but nobody else was saying it. And in fact, we all heard that bogus line where they would say there's been no studies that have proven that masks are bad. And then they don't tell you that's because no IRB would ever give approval to mask little toddlers en masse for months indefinitely. You couldn't even have gotten that past the proposal stage in research because of the obvious problems, you know, failure to stimulate mirror neurons, you know, just so many reasons. So anyway, I put it all down, sent it out to a few psychologists to be like, Sean (10:00.845) Fff Dr. Chloe Carmichael (10:23.024) Okay, am I missing something? Because to me, this feels really obvious. Before I go share this with the world and maybe embarrass myself, can you tell me, what am I missing? And I got the weirdest responses. Okay, so, and these are friends, trusted colleagues, people I'm still friends with. And they said, and because as you know, the psychology profession is ultra left. And so they had the weirdest response. They said, you know what, there's nothing in your article that I disagree with that actually all makes sense, it's all factually true. However, I really don't think that you should publish this. And I would say, okay, why? And they would say, it could discourage the people from masking, it could discourage masking. And I'm like, okay, this totally doesn't make sense. Like, I mean, and that stimulated some of my further thinking about groupthink, right? Which is where, you know, of course we're doing things that are completely irrational. Sean (11:06.023) Oh. Ha ha ha. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (11:17.612) I mean, the idea that they would say, yeah, this paper about why masking kids is totally messed up makes sense. It's factually true, but you shouldn't publish it because it could discourage people from masking kids, right? Like it's like the Twilight Zone, right? So I went ahead and published the paper anyway, just blog. It's actually at maskharms.com if anybody wants to. I made an easy URL of maskharms.com. And the, you know... Jay Bhattacharya and different people like that, like retweeted it. And, you know, it was really validating for me. But also it felt like a public service because I also had a lot of parents and people I didn't know. Because remember, there was all the school board issues and stuff at the time, parents contacting me saying, thank you for giving me the, again, I just, I get choked up talking about it because thinking about this happening and the way parents were being shamed. And so they would say, thank you for giving me the vocabulary to explain what I felt as a parent was just intuitively obvious. And I needed to be able to have, you know, a psychologist, you know, say like a few of these, you know, scientific facts, you know. So thanks for that, Dr. Chloe. And I would say, oh, it's like so much my pleasure. So it started with that. And then by moving to Florida, where there is more of a culture of free speech, a culture of freedom, I was no longer having to, quote, pass as somebody that would fit in a New York City media academia environment, which was my domain for 20 years. And so when I got to Florida and I just in that one case speaking my mind and being around other people that were speaking their mind, I started to realize how my own thought process on a variety of issues was deepening and being enriched. And I started thinking about free speech and how it does, talking things through, helps us to clarify our ideas, develop our ideas, even to discard bad ideas when we have the chance to talk them through. And I'm happy to go more into all of that, but. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (13:39.64) Basically, it was just through the experience of realizing myself how free speech was really important. And then at the same time in the news, it was always being vilified. OK, I was like, well, we have to worry about free speech because of bullying and hate speech. And it is presented like, well, free speech is OK, but what about people's mental health? As opposed to saying, free speech is good, especially for your mental health. But free speech is not the enemy of mental health. So I started then, I wrote for the New York Post, and I wrote for Fox, and currently, maybe gonna be doing some stuff with some other publications. So yeah, I just, the more I wrote, the more I thought, and the more my thoughts developed through conversations and open dialogue. Sean (14:30.411) Well, we appreciate you stepping outside the matrix. You brought up this interesting concept of group think. Now New York City, Los Angeles, where Sean was from. Sean came. Yeah. Your story is very, uh, very similar to mine where my child was an infant. So I was protected from the school environment, but I had moved from Los Angeles to Pennsylvania for many reasons, but one being in a better environment for him to grow up. But it's kind of those, those two. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (14:53.808) Oh my goodness. Yes, I'm sorry, but California. Oh, like, I mean, what they're doing there now. I mean, sorry, Roger, but yeah, like, what they're doing there with kids is even crazier now. Sean (15:08.099) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean it's interesting because those two areas are we're kind of ground zero for that for this and obviously the national media those are hubs and You and I have obviously experienced Similar educational environments and whether we use the word woke culture or political correctness identity politics Whatever that may be there was just a general censoring of information with an ideological agenda that's just bred in academic institutions. I'm curious to know how the left has shifted to such an extent. So typically liberal causes included areas of free speech and free press and freedom. It seems like somewhere in our lifetime, Dr. Chloe, that it has had a profound shift from that typical historical liberalism to environments of groupthink. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (16:05.368) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean exactly how that, you know, was accomplished, it's hard to say, you know, I mean there's in some way people talk about the feminization of academia, you know, that might play a role. You know, I've certainly, you know, seen people write about, you know, introduction of Marxism and plans for that over periods of time. you know, the feminization I mentioned because there, I think, can sometimes be a misguided female tendency of nurturance to assume that, you know, it's always best to protect, right? That's one of the things that psychologists, good psychologists, are trying often to explain to parents, you know, or especially to mothers, like, let your sons play fight, like, you know, it's part of how they develop empathy, you know? And so, you know, maybe, I don't know, as to your point, like, how on earth did a place like Harvard get to be the worst in terms of free speech, right? And I went to Columbia, I can tell you, it wasn't much better. And that was years and years ago. I can only imagine what it's like now. And they're having racially segregated graduations and whatnot. So yeah, I mean, how on earth did we get here? That's probably outside of my scope of expertise, but I can see that we are here, that's for sure. Sean (17:33.507) It's interesting during the time of 2020, and I've told this story in the podcast before, I was doing research into the efficacy of mRNA vaccines because I was already a skeptic. I knew the history of the pharmaceutical industries with psychiatric drugs and how trials can be manipulated. Academics can be hired as ghost writers and how information that could be disseminated that is unscientific. And mRNA technology was new. It's never been anything that's been. tested on a human population. We clearly do not have any long term studies. For almost all of us. COVID was a very mild flu, if anything. And so the risk benefit analysis never really made sense to me. And so I was doing some comparison on social media, Twitter, for example, and I was building a bit of a following on Twitter at the time. And I got a private message from an academic from Brown, somebody that you know, Sean (18:32.831) concerned about my influence as a psychologist, where I could potentially dissuade people from getting a COVID vaccine or even wearing a mask based on some of these principles that Chloe, you're, you're talking about, but as well as kind of from a scientific background. So I did engage her in some professional conversation to try to get a sense of, you know, what the critical analysis of this was. And what was returned to me was the lack of critical analysis. It is, I think, the definition of group think and just following what was presented to them. And that's what I'm concerned about with the psychology profession in a lot of areas, which we can definitely get into. But this idea of like following authoritarian ideals, like somebody Someone's a medical authority, someone's an academic authority, someone's a government authority, they proclaim something to be true, and we follow it blindly. What is your understanding of group think and how it actually even develops and why it develops? Dr. Chloe Carmichael (19:44.244) Right. So the piece I wrote for Fox has the most detail on this, just in case anyone's looking for deeper detail on this. But the way I think, and it's interesting you mentioned Twitter because there's a few elements there. So with groupthink, Irving Yanis, his name is J-A-N-I-S, but I think it's pronounced Yanis. He is the psychologist who kind of coined the term back when he was trying to make sense of what happened with the Bay of Pigs situation in Cuba many decades ago. And he studied that whole interaction. He looked at the transcripts of the meetings and things because he was trying to figure out how on earth this happened. And one of the things, interestingly, that he mentions prominently. as some of the conditions that could lead to groupthink is actually a condition of self-censorship, right? And that can happen, as you said, when we have some kind of a sacred cow or some kind of incredible expert that we're not allowed to question, which was super weird because science is, by definition, supposed to be able to be questioned. It's supposed to be... you know, subjected to testing and, you know, proof and revision. And then when that became something that we were not allowed to do, then we had a situation of that, you know, kind of top-down expert situation. And if you disagree, you cannot say so because, you know, you'll be made to look like a fool or you'll be ostracized. But then one of the additional things that was happening in the Twitter file situation that I think really contributed to the group think as well is that there was a false sense of social consensus. There was a manipulation. As we all know clearly, it's not even a dispute at this point. You know, that government agencies were colluding with teams, quote, trust and safety teams at Twitter to, you know, censor, visibility filter, like whatever they call it. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (22:02.992) to the point where your average user who's on Twitter would essentially walk into the town square, look around and say, oh wow, it looks like 100% of the people feel that anyone who doesn't mask and vax is killing grandma. And so good humans, to a certain degree, actually do take social feedback and community. belonging, a sense of belonging and social norms. And so when Twitter, pre-Ela and Twitter did that, they were really setting the stage for groupthink because they colluded with, first of all, this expert class that you weren't allowed to question, Fauci, I am the science, right? And anybody that dared to question him, they silenced. So they created this false, you know, social consensus and they started messing with our reality testing. And as you know, as a psychologist, reality testing is absolutely key to mental health. And so it's destabilizing when they mess with your reality testing and they mess with your sense of social consensus. And they give you quote, scientific information, which we've been trained to respect. as something that comes from a place of rationality and transparency and testing, but then it wasn't that. It was almost like just calling it by that name, but that's not really what it was. So 100% group think recipe, basically, is what that was. Sean (23:47.123) I think it also demonstrates the power of fear and how fear can interfere with reality testing and getting grounded because that uncertainty and that fear provokes a sense of like profound realization of our own limitations and our pending death. So, I mean, we did see as a culture a profound fear of our own mortality. And in that you can see how we are, you know, raised tribal, we've evolved tribally. And there was just so much profound, strong, intense anxiety reactions of stepping outside what has been established as normal, even though you might have these concerns and you'd be critically thinking and engaging in conversation at some point, their eyes would just gloss over and go back to exactly what the messaging was, almost like they couldn't trust their own intuition or their own analysis. And that is, it scares the hell out of me because I'm a little bit of a history buff. And so anyone who takes time to learn about World War II, Nazi Germany, you can see how societies can fall to an authoritarian leader who is charismatic. And we can even harm each other in that respect. That was the irony of a lot of these measures and lockdowns and the information that was provided is. It was done out of a belief of protection, but actually the measures that we all took created harm. I mean, I really do that. It interfered with our ability to get through the pandemic. I mean, one of the worst things to do is to vaccinate during a pandemic in the middle of the pandemic. when you start reading kind of scientific history and so forth, because then you see these variants continue to increase at a different rate, not to mention just the adverse reactions to those vaccine. But what we began to experience was a mental health crisis. We experienced a profound concern with being able to trust each other. There was isolation, there was anxiety, and we saw. Sean (26:07.643) increases in psychiatric hospitalizations, the utilization of the mental health system, it just has profound consequences. Sean, I mean, you were actually in that mindset for a little bit. I do think you've been able to evolve past that. But can you look kind of like look back now and maybe do a deep dive on your on your own on how you kind of fell into that similar group think? Yeah, I would say Even if I look back in the decisions that I made at the time, if I would do anything differently, I don't think I would, I would think that in the same situation, I would probably make the decisions that I made. Why is that? Because I haven't been through this process of, um, I'll call it a transformation where it usually takes something you have to be harmed in some way or misled or lied to. And once you feel like you've been through that and it's happened to you personally, then you have your guard up next time and you start looking at things a little more critically. And so under that logic, why would you say that Dr. Chloe and myself were different because we weren't we weren't harmed in necessarily, I would say, well, Dr. Chloe, I don't want to speak for you. But you start off talking about recognizing the potential harms to your child going to an environment where masking was going to be required. And that was personally affecting her, which then got her to then start critically evaluating other things. For you, Roger, it was recognizing the harms of the antidepressant medications and SSL rights and things that have happened in the past that you already had your guard up and you, you were in a protective state of like, I don't know if I should trust this without actually looking at a clinical study that is going to show effectiveness. Now for me and go ahead. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (27:47.329) I was just going to say I agree with you, Sean, and I would also add, I don't know your training, Sean, but I think... Sean (27:55.128) Oh, I'm not trained. I'm a marketing person. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (27:55.536) Yeah, so one reason why I was able to be somewhat skeptical is because of my training, you know? I mean, like I said, the reason that I felt so strongly about the masking thing and took action on it, to be honest, I don't know if I would have taken action on it if I didn't also have, you know, an arsenal of information about why this was, in my opinion, sinful to do, you know, to children. And it's an interesting thing as well, going back to some of this whole gaslighting thing. And as you said, Roger, where they're forcing people to repress and suppress themselves because of fear of ostracization. And as psychologists, we know that when people are not able to express themselves directly, they will resort to passive aggression. And interestingly, passive aggression, like social exclusion, that's actually more of a female trait. And it's an interesting thing as well to me, like one of the ways that women show dominance is through almost like pathological nurturing, right? So with men who are going overboard on dominance, it's kind of easy to see. It looks like a kind of a classic obnoxious macho man situation, right? But with women, it's that have another bite of soup, dear. Eat another bite. And you're like, no, I don't want it. And they're like, you have to have it, or you'll get sick. And they're dominating you with their nurturance. It's like a wolf in sheep's clothing situation. And I do think it was, I don't know. I mean, it is also when we saw the rise. I think the word Karen can have so many connotations and meanings. whatnot, you know, but I mean, we did see, you know, a lot of women. And again, women are also very socially sensitive, right? So maybe on some level, we were also very vulnerable, you know, to this false sense of social consensus and, you know, more prone to repression and suppression. So yeah, just to say to you, Sean, like, Dr. Chloe Carmichael (30:20.2) I might have been in the same situation. I don't know if I didn't also have, you know, just years and years and years of training to back up my common sense, which is again, why those parents were so thankful. Cause they said, this is like what we know, but we just needed the vocabulary. If I didn't have that vocabulary, I don't know. Sean (30:41.343) Yeah, that's why I think it's so important that there is freedom of speech regarding any subject matter. So when it comes to psychologists or people working in the mental health field, having platforms where you can speak out about concerns is important for anybody who's not in that field to be able to critically evaluate from both perspectives and make the right decisions for themselves. Sean (31:05.995) Dr. Chloe, you brought up some interesting points about the feminization of psychology, our field, academia in itself. And I've seen the same thing. Even the APA, which recently published guidelines for the treatment of men and boys, kind of refers to traditional masculinity in terms of almost like it's toxic, competition, stoicism, things of that nature are harmful to the... developing male, which is really concerning for me. As you know, some I grew up in, in sports and played college football and just see the value of competition in athletics when it's done in a manner to teach cooperation and teamwork and respect for opponents, as well as to foster courage and pushing yourself past your own personal limits, but I have kind of witnessed a steady decline in American society where we do treat everyone as if they are extremely fragile. That even words are violence, which boy, does that have some real potential for unforeseen consequences when someone else can judge another person's words as potentially violent. Do you have the same concerns for me about the fragilizing of the American mind? Dr. Chloe Carmichael (32:29.56) Oh, yes. OK, so you're like touching on a million things here. Dr. Rogers, seriously, like I just I have to write notes to keep up with you because yes. So actually, I recently participated in a documentary by Prager University about the myth of toxic masculinity. And it will be releasing, I think, sometime this year or maybe early next year. And as a woman who you know, loves men, I'm married to a man, I don't want to be married to like an effeminate man and I'm raising a wonderful boy who is all boy and I love him for the boy that he is. I think that the whole thing where we're making men afraid to be men is obviously harmful to men, but I think it's also harmful to women, you know, that we're depriving ourselves. And you know, to your point about the fragility. that idea that words are violence, you know, it's wrong on so many levels. So, for example, just simply rationally and factually to just look at that statement, words are violence. Well, then why is it that as a clinical psychologist, if a client tells me, I'm going to tell my neighbor that she's ugly and I hate her, it would be illegal? for me to pick up the phone and start yapping to the police about what he said. That would be a total breach of confidentiality. On the other hand, if he said, I am going to take a gun and shoot my neighbor, I would absolutely have to call the police on him. I wouldn't have a choice. I'm a mandated reporter. So to me, it's an obvious fact that words are not violence. And I think that teaching the general public that, allowing that statement to be spoken at universities, Of course it creates fragility because if people actually start to believe that, then sure, they begin to feel fearful and stressful and fight or flight responses when they're around someone who's just simply speaking disagreement with them. So of course it's bad for the mental health of society to make us feel as if we're living under some kind of a constant... Dr. Chloe Carmichael (34:50.34) atmosphere of terrible violence, which we know is of course bad for mental health, you know, when that's actually not what's really happening. And we're discouraging people. I mean, which is so crazy for psychologists to do of all people. I mean, I don't know how many jokes there are, right, about psychologists. And we just want to talk it out, you know. And so for psychologists of all people. to be down on the idea of people having open dialogue and speaking their mind and getting confused about what's actually violence and what's actually just a disagreement. Ironically, we're shutting down safe spaces, I think, by doing that. And again, I have to admit, as a woman, I think there may be some twisted aspect of like... that female nurturance slash dominance, I'm going to make a safe space where nobody can say anything that I disagree with, just because I'm so nice. And again, for me, actually, as a woman, if somebody say things that women are stupid and shouldn't work, I would rather know it. I feel safer knowing how people feel. than actually creating a circumstance and saying, you know, keep your, keep your viewpoints completely subverted and maybe even suppress them enough to the point where you act them out and you have, you know, kind of irrational forms of aggression against women that you don't even fully understand yourself because you've repressed, you know, your disagreements with the feminist movement because you're not allowed to talk about them. I don't see how that's really creating safe spaces. And as psychologists, again, part of what we do in session is we try to get clients to take their interior life and put it into a system of language, put it into words, because it helps to decrease anxiety when you can put something into a system of control. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (37:02.752) It actually helps to build and raise your awareness and your ability to be insightful and examine your process when you can put it in words and lay it out on the table and talk about it and think about it. That actually promotes safety. And to your point as well about resiliency, what an insulting thing actually to say to someone. You'll fold like a cheap tent or whatever the saying is. If somebody says, calls you a name, Boy, it's over for you, you know? I mean, that's actually like a really insulting thing to say to someone. Sean (37:40.927) That's such brilliant commentary. It's so true. And as you know, that our podcast is radically genuine, radical genuineness in dialectical behavior therapy is actually a way of being with a client. Not fragilizing them, not using therapy speak and talking to that person as if they are less than or overly too sensitive to be able to handle an actual conversation because we believe there's value in being able to. have that open and honest conversation and it actually builds trust. There's something that happens in society when we're virtue signaling or we have just kind of superficial guardedness in our interactions that leads to a pervasive sense of distrust in others because we don't really know where you stand. And I always thought from a management perspective in business and how I manage my center and how I relate to my employees is just a downright open honesty. So they always know. where they stand, there's no guessing. You know, there's no opportunity for it to say, well, I thought you meant something different. And what does that say about how we think about other people if we're walking on eggshells around them? Which is kind of what is happening in our culture is we've just lost our ability to be genuine because we've been told that word's hurt or that it's violence and people can't even tolerate or handle. disagreement or someone having a different viewpoint without name calling. I don't know how many people are afraid to venture into discussions around topics like race or gender or other hot button issues because they're just afraid of being called a transphobe or a racist. We've lost our ability to have nuanced discussion. I think the transgender issue is a great one. In my heart, I believe people should live any way that they choose, unless it doesn't infringe on the personal rights of another. So you can actually say, identify in the manner in which you want, live free. And at the same time, if you're invading women's spaces, that infringes on the rights of the others and we have a real critical and you know, there's an argument there that we can have a discussion around that doesn't have to border on hate. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (40:00.7) Doesn't have to border on hate. Thank you. Yeah. Sean (40:05.696) Yeah. I think intent is what's always misconstrued when it comes to that topic. Cause if you do get something wrong, it doesn't mean that your intent was to harm or attack that person. It's just a lack of understanding because that's not the world that you live in. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (40:16.344) Well, what's interesting to me is that I think that some people are more prone to feel it as an annihilating attack of their, you know, kind of a survival level again, because when we can speak freely, when we can have free speech, we increase our mindfulness skills and our metacognition to learn, you know, that these thoughts are separate from ourselves and that our thoughts can change and evolve over time. And it's different from our core self. But when people don't understand that and they actually are holding things inside so much that their viewpoints almost become, you know, mushed up and merged against, you know, their sense of their core identity to the point where, you know, when you do say, you know what, you don't belong in the women's locker room, it actually does feel, you know, on some level to them, I actually believe them. when they say that it feels as if they are quote dying. Dr. Roger, I actually did some work with dialectical behavioral therapy in my training as well. I was part of some research programs with that. And there does almost seem to be kind of a borderline irrational quality, I think, to a lot of this thinking, which I think is really exacerbated again. by the idea that we're in this gaslighting situation where we can't speak the truth because we've been told that words are violence, you know? And then ironically, what we're actually doing, which is, again, it's so weird, this whole thing about, quote, safe spaces and being kind, so to speak. I say that like being kind because I don't think it really is kind, you know, to lie to people. about who you are and what you think, or to suggest that they are so incredibly fragile that they would go to pieces if somebody disagreed with them. And so ironically, what that does is it actually degrades our sense of social support when we cannot be authentic, genuine with each other. We're actually having less authentic, less close relationships. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (42:33.388) and we have less durability in our relationships. We can't trust that our relationship, you know, can weather or even be enriched by disagreement. And as clinical psychologists, it's literally required, as I know you know this, I'm just sharing for your audience, when we're assessing a patient, we are literally required as part of that to assess and understand that person's social support because social support is considered such an essential part. of mental health. So I think there's a lot of reasons why we're having a quote mental health crisis. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with big pharma and the commodification of mental health and the fact that the more people have a quote diagnosis then the more money that is made by the healthcare industry. I think there's actually a lot of actual genuine factors that are truly messing with people's health. And I really think a lot of it traces back to free speech in this particular case, in terms of the fact that we're degrading people's social support and we're making them feel as if, they're walking around in a war zone because they might walk through a public area where people disagree. And so naturally they're unraveling mentally if that's the world in which they've been convinced that they live. Sean (44:02.219) I do want to do some reality testing. So both Dr. Chloe and Sean, want to make sure that this isn't just some my conspiratorial mindset, I'd like to always kind of engage with people to make sure my mind isn't going off in directions that don't fit reality, which I think is healthy. I believe this whole commodification of our health care system or mental well being is purposeful, as well as the political polarization of American society. just saw an article, the richest 1% of people amassed almost two thirds of new wealth created over the last couple of years. So there has been a huge power grab and money grab through the COVID crisis. And we see it in the way that we are changing how we live. I personally believe that top 1% filters information that benefits them. And if we're divided, it benefits them. If we are sick, it benefits them. The pharmaceutical industry, the sick care system, the medical system in United States, you're talking about a multi, multi-trillion dollar industry. When those beds are full, they do better. When we're even getting a flu vaccine, when we choose to get a flu vaccine, that's a billion dollar product for the pharmaceutical company. So I personally believe this is around major industry in the top 1%. enacting their own personal agenda. And we're too dumb to be able to understand it. So we fight each other and then we feed right into it. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (45:38.188) Well, to be fair, OK, I don't know if it's that we're too dumb. That was, I think, part of what was so ugly and sinister about the Twitter files, Twitter government collusion, where they were falsely manipulating of social consensus and cutting off our ability to communicate. I mean, we all know that there were certain news stories that you literally couldn't even share. Like you were physically. prevented from direct messaging them or certain types of material or opinions that would literally get you banned. And so that really does handicap our ability to exchange information, which again, our gift of language, I'm sorry to bring everything back to free speech, but I do just think it's so key. Evolutionary psychologists have speculated that part of the reason that our society developed to such a sophisticated species. is in part because of our ability of language to exchange ideas and form alliances and learn information from one another. And that was not only messed with, but it was done in secret. So it was like a double whammy of interrupting our ability to function and form bonds and exchange information. So I don't entirely think it's just that we're too dumb. I hope not. I really think that a lot of people are starting to wake up. I mean, look at the stuff that's coming out now about SSRIs and how ineffective it sounds like. A lot of them may actually be. And I mean, I personally received a vaccine injury. And that really, that changed a lot of my... you know, thinking about like how much can I really trust, you know, just the FDA and all that kind of thing. So I don't think it's that we're too dumb. I do think maybe we did get too comfortable and then it was exacerbated by the censorship, especially because it was covert. So I have faith in us as humans still. Sean (47:53.235) Yeah, I guess you can't deny that there's something happening in terms of who's controlling the messages. I was just having this thought. It's a little, not in the area where you're speaking, but when it comes to like education and learning skills for the first time ever in human history, you have the ability to get interested in a topic and you can learn about it. You can take online courses. You can read whatever you want. It's all in your palm of your hand at the time in history, there would be books. And books would be withheld from people to keep the information with only those at the top. Now to, to say that you're being held back to me is not a true statement. So now there's pushing out this narrative about social justice, you know, that. That don't even bother putting the effort in to learn these things because you're going to be held back because of who you are, where you come from, what you look like. And I think that is, that is. causing a new level of harm because now more than ever, the truth is you can learn something, you can get really good at something and you could benefit from it and start your own company and just thrive. But we're putting these, these the language out there to tell people that don't even bother doing it because you can't overcome these barriers that exist quote unquote. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (49:13.292) Yeah, I think that's one of the, it's really disempowering, right, to tell people that they, that they're going to be held back or promoted or anything, you know, because of their personal characteristics, right? Like I'm so thankful that affirmative action is, was at least overruled in the Supreme Court. You know, but to your point as well about just the, finally, education itself becoming free, right? That we can go on YouTube and we can learn so much, right? However, on the other hand, Dr. Roger, to your point about maybe, have we gotten too dumb? One of the concerns that I do have though is, okay, we all know that ridiculous amounts of people have gone through these total BS, quote, college programs and master's programs where they are being taught exactly the kind of identity, politics. oppression, social justice stuff, you know, that Sean was just talking about. And to the point where this is like the part that really confounds me is that all of this loan forgiveness is happening. And many of those private colleges had to like refund the money because the students were like, Hey, look, you know, we were given a BS education. This education isn't really worth anything. We were robbed and we want our money back. OK, fine. but then they still want to parade around the same knowledge, supposed knowledge that they acquired and say, well, I have my degree and I know these things and all of this makes sense, right? So I do think that, you know, degrades our general knowledge base to some of the kind of ridiculous conversations that we now have to be having. So, you know, I'm trying to stay optimistic, Dr. Roger, but I do see your point. Sean (51:08.971) Well, I'm in the middle of the book, The College Scam by Charlie Kirk right now, because considering us doing a podcast on this subject, it hits home for me because I have my oldest daughter is at Temple University down in Philadelphia. She's in a doctoral program for physical therapy. And I have a son who's a junior who's actually looking at Ivy league schools. And when you start reading a book like The College Scam, you begin to to really kind of look at the dollars and cents of it. The economics of it. The economics of it and whether it's the same investment and for many of these, it is not. Not only do you have to be able to enter into a specific professional career that's gonna lead you to some return on investment, but you're also gonna have to move beyond groupthink and you're gonna have to develop the skills to be able to be innovative or you're going to unfortunately just fall into line. with what the market is going to pay for a lot of these jobs, that's never gonna make your college education a worthy investment due to what I think a lot of people have had to take out so many student loans and put us in debt. But I wanna move beyond that because although it always does fit, when we talk about this general sense of fear, I think we can transition into just the topics of your book. We do reside in a climate where mental health professionals generally discuss anxiety as if it's a disease to rid yourself of. And of course, that's like filtered into the lexicon of younger generations. You know, they say, I have anxiety, I have depression, like it's herpes or something that you just caught. And it seems like your book is offering a more grounded and scientific and evolutionary kind of perspective around the role of anxiety. And I do believe if we're going to transform our culture, we have to be able to transition past fear in order to be able to face the challenges that exist in front of us. But why don't you tell us a little bit about your book and the role of fear and anxiety and how we kind of are, I think at this point, taking the wrong perspective. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (53:25.884) Yes, of course they'd be happy to do to talk about my book, of course. Though I just, I have to say in agreement, you know, with what you were saying about how a lot of clinicians, you know, look at, say, anxiety as, you know, like the bogeyman or something. I can't help but again notice and think about the feminization of our field. And it's so interesting because, you know, there's, I think it's, I don't know, 70, 80%, you know, female at this point. But I don't see any programs, you know, holding out signs saying, we'll pay free tuition for any man that wants to come here, you know, the way that they do for other minorities in the field and connecting that with the toxic masculinity conversation, the way that they're pathologizing, say, stoicism, which would actually, you know, be a great antidote to somebody who's completely skittish, right? With anxiety, they actually need to learn, you know, to develop. some stoicism. So my book, Nervous Energy Harness the Power of Your Anxiety, is exactly that. It's actually about looking at anxiety not as some kind of a liability to be managed, but like potentially actually as an asset. The healthy function, I know you're aware, but the healthy function of anxiety is to stimulate preparation behaviors. And my practice in New York on Park Avenue, tends to get a lot of type A people, very successful people. I noticed that basically almost all of them would come in dealing with issues of anxiety. And while they wanted help, learning to kind of make sure they were pointing it in the right direction and they are managing the anxiety rather than the anxiety managing them. They also, on some level, were aware that they didn't want to get rid of that anxiety completely. You know, the saying, only the paranoid survive, right? And we're talking about the mean streets of New York City finance and law, right? So they knew that on some level, this was giving them some kind of an edge, and they didn't want me to just get rid of it. And so I found myself teaching a lot of techniques. There's actually nine specific techniques in the book. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (55:50.108) that teach people how to do exactly that, how to notice that there are certain times, like just to be super simple. Suppose that you're really anxious about a big interview that you have coming up. That actually is going to give you a boost of adrenaline and a boost of energy. And for some people, if they don't know what to do with it, they'll just sit there stewing in that energy, running. And when I say energy, I mean literal physical energy. running negative scenarios, negative cognitive rehearsals and maladaptive thoughts through their mind. And they're using that gift of energy in a very maladaptive way. And so I would teach them instead to say, okay, well, whenever you feel anxious about that interview, let's have a list of 10 things that you can do, behaviors that you know are going to actually help you to improve your chances of success with that interview. And then we can start to look at that anxiety. almost as more of a drive that's going to be there to help you. And also noticing how, on some level, anxiety can signal that you have an investment in your outcome and an investment in your situation. Anxiety is not apathy. So the book was endorsed by Deepak Chopra, which, as a former yoga teacher, meant a lot to me. I think because there's a whole chapter on mindfulness, but not in the honestly stupid woo-woo. be in the moment way that like I hear it talked about so often. Really what it is, is it's metacognition. It's having the observing ego as we call it in psychology. So that if you are with your son and you're feeling distracted, to be able to not only notice that the goal isn't to just say, let's get back into the moment with my son. The goal is also to say, okay, well, why am I distracted? Is it because I have a pressing work issue that actually really needs my attention? Is it because I need to learn skills in learning how to connect with a six-year-old and that would engage me better? Like really learning how to have that meta awareness of the context of why you're feeling what you're feeling. And so I think that's what led to the Deepak endorsement. But like I said, the book has nine techniques and it's available in audiobook, which I insisted on with the publisher because... Dr. Chloe Carmichael (58:10.136) I think a lot of people, they want to take a walk, which I also encourage, and to be able to just listen to the book, but of course it's also in paper and Kindle as well. Sean (58:24.203) curious with your dialectical behavior therapy, kind of like education and in the past and some maybe some practice, did you incorporate a lot of your learnings from that into your tips for the nine steps? Dr. Chloe Carmichael (58:36.948) Yeah, on a certain level. So I was a yoga teacher before I, you know, got into the field of psychology in any way at all. So I had a lot of mindfulness training already. And then, as you know, there's a lot of mindfulness and wise mind perspective in DBT. I think that actually helped me to secure the positions that I was able to get within that field because of my background and experience with mindfulness. And then just continuing to work and study is what led to the chapter in the book about mindfulness as metacognition. And it's really, I love teaching it to people. I do a fair amount of corporate speaking, corporate workshops now these days. And it's really fun to be able to open it up to people because you talk to executives, they're intelligent people, and I don't blame them that when they hear that you're gonna talk about mindfulness, they're like, yawn. This is the thing where someone's gonna tell me to, you know, look at a raisin and be in the moment. And when I explain to them, it is so much more than that. It is really metacognition and teaching them what that is and how it can help them. It's exciting. Sean (59:37.437) Meh. Sean (59:55.391) Yeah, it seems like you do a great job of being able to adapt concepts to the individual based on who they are, their personality, their life goals. And I think that's such a key to the work we do as psychologists that we have to have that level of flexibility to be able to adapt to whoever's in front of us to motivate them in a way to live better. And to do that, we really have to know who they are. And so if you misapply some of these concepts in a way that doesn't fit their worldview. practically how they live or even how they want to live, it's just gonna fall short. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:00:24.124) Yeah, yeah, which again, for us to be able to be, as you said, radically genuine, we have to be really in touch with ourselves first. So being able to have those real conversations definitely helps us to do exactly that, to really tune into each other and understand what motivates each other and learn and grow together. Sean (01:00:49.035) Yeah, speaking of anxiety, I put out a tweet today where I said, when you realize that help for anxiety should have nothing to do with finding ways to decrease anxiety, but rather develop a new relationship to your fear, everything changes, but there is no drug for that. And I think what I mean by that is that if your own fear becomes a guide, a partner with you, that it's indicative of that there's something that's meaningful potentially. There's something that you, as you mentioned Chloe, about being prepared for something that's performance related. The stakes might be high, it's something you value. Or at the same time, you're also, you're working in a way to protect yourself from potential threats that are legitimate and they exist. And in that way, anxiety is a critical and important partner as long as it doesn't run the show for you, it doesn't run your life. You know, it falls on a spectrum here where anxiety is something that can create such a level of disconnect from reality that you're unable to function anymore. And that degree of fear is absolutely debilitating and controlling. At the same time, the absence of any fear at all is sociopathic. It's problematic. You know, so we have to be able to communicate differently the role of human emotions. I feel like we've become more and more emotionally illiterate. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:02:05.298) Mm-hmm. Sean (01:02:16.975) in American society and part of that is the medicalization of distress. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:02:19.272) Yeah, very true. As you said, a lot of people will look at feelings like, oh my gosh, I have anxiety, as you said, as if it's something that they caught. And people even use that phrase, I'm going to catch some feelings. And to your point as well about how they can just get paralyzed in fear, because if they have this misapprehension that anxiety is this bogeyman, then they start to get anxiety about anxiety. Sean (01:02:35.133) Yeah. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:02:48.628) And it just totally snowballs instead of, you know, realizing, oh, okay, I'm, I'm engaging in a little defensive pessimism about my interview right now. I'm nervous about it. And so for anyone who doesn't know, defensive pessimism is actually a healthy thing to a certain degree. It's where you kind of think about certain things that could go wrong so that you manage your own expectations and you maybe stimulate yourself to try to potentially solve for future problems. So when somebody realizes that they're anxious and having some defensive pessimism about their interview, instead of just spiraling into anxiety about anxiety, they can actually say, okay, great, what is this springboarding me to do? Let me open up my nervous energy book and see which one of those nine techniques would be helpful or whatever is in that person's toolbox. Sean (01:03:43.735) is so true. And I'm thinking of the business world, my previous career, I would over prepare for meetings, anticipating questions, objections to whatever we're going to talk about. And I would be up the night before and like ruminating over stuff and they would wake up the next day and start jotting down more things. And I'd go into that meeting, still nervous, still with a level of anxiety. And I look at somebody else and I'll be like, you know, a little anxious about this. And they'd say, No, not really. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:04:11.056) They're blasé. Yeah. Sean (01:04:11.487) And I would be like, well, you should be. You should be. Yeah, that means you don't care. And you always talk about under promise over deliver. Under promise over deliver. To be honest, I hate that attitude. I hate that entire approach. I think it's like an energy zapper of the spirit of, I wanna over promise and I wanna deliver. I think we're limited by our beliefs. We create our own realities. And so I want to create a reality of something that extends beyond your level of consciousness that what you know, it can always be better. And that, and that energy is, you know, we have a short time on this planet, short time to live. And so that's where I, you know, fear is something that I think inhibits people in their unwillingness to take appropriate level of risks to live fully. And, uh, you know, so that kind of attitude I think is kind of problematic. Doctors. Dr. Chloe, we have kept you for a while. So I think it's a good time for us to probably conclude. I am fascinated by you. You are super smart. We have to be able to connect again and get you on the podcast. There's so many relevant cultural issues that exist today that we need somebody who can think about it from this perspective. It's the value of, and I've always said this, what I love about psychologists, is it's this interesting mix between philosophy and science. You know, when someone is just purely science and purely data, sometimes it's like you're talking to a robot, you know, but we have this need for philosophers in society, because they balance the engineer, you know, so to speak. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:05:47.632) Well, do you know the etymology of the word psychology? It's kind of very to what you're saying. So psychology comes from the Greek word psyche, which is the word for spirit. And so it's kind of like the logic and the study of the spirit. So as you said, it's kind of a science and a philosophy. And it is a soft science, which a lot of us like to forget. And we walk around spouting, you know, I don't mean you and me necessarily, hopefully not. Sean (01:05:54.046) No, I don't. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:06:17.636) But when people start spouting off some of these psychology studies as if it's like, OK, well, now this is the gospel forever, especially for me having worked in labs and seeing how the sausage gets made sometimes, I think people should have a lot of skepticism about some of those studies. But thank you for what you said about me. And of course, I would love to join and talk any time, as you know, for me with free speech and open dialogue. I think it's good for everybody, so thanks for the chance. Sean (01:06:53.347) course, at this point, I want to just remind our listeners. So we I mean, we have, we've gotten onto the top of the Apple charts because this audience willingness on particular episodes to share it, to like it to comment. And that's how we've been able to grow a global audience at this stage. And so I'm we're at the end of this podcast. And I thought it was just a fascinating conversation that we have to have more of because I do think we're walking down a path in society where we're going to be faced with some pretty strong challenges. And a lot of what we hold dear in American culture around the concept of freedom, I think is being targeted. And I think it's being targeted by people in power in our own country. And it is going to be a situation where we're going to have to come together as people. to be able to respond accordingly to any risks to our personal liberty, our freedom, our freedom of speech. And groupthink is what I think puts it all at risk. Fear is what places it all at risk. And this is right under your purview, Dr. Chloe. You know, when we talk about freedoms and we talk about fear, this is definitely an area where I want this podcast to be able to continue to move forward. So with that being said, How can people get in touch with you, view your work, download your socials? Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:08:20.908) Yeah, sure. They can go to nervousenergybook.com and that will take you to a page in my website that will have more about the Nervous Energy Book at nervousenergybook.com and there are also links to all of my socials. You can also go, I have a page, you can go to drchloe.com slash independent and it will give you links to like, for example, this podcast episode will go there, like wherever I get the chance to. you know, step out of the box and talk about this kind of stuff on drchloe.com slash independent and then nervousenergybook.com is for the book and other stuff like that. Sean (01:09:06.135) Dr. Chloe Carmichael, we want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. Dr. Chloe Carmichael (01:09:09.305) My pleasure.