Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Jeremiah Frink (Dell) on Data Dunkers, AI, and Teaching Kids to Think Critically

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Jeremiah Frink (Dell) on Data Dunkers, AI, and Teaching Kids to Think Critically · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
0:25
and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:28
This at Tech podcast. I'm Jeremy Mikla, joined
0:31
by co -host David Berner. And we're joined with
0:36
us today, Jeremiah Ocalfrink. Jeremiah is a former
0:41
classroom teacher from Rochester. He also is
0:44
now currently with Dell. And Jeremiah, welcome
0:48
to the program. And we're glad to have you here.
0:51
Yeah, it's great to be here. Love to listen to
0:53
y 'all. I'm looking forward to having a chance
0:55
to chat. Yeah, why don't you kick off for us
0:59
just giving us a little bit of background of
1:01
your story You know, how did you go from being
1:02
a classroom teacher to where you are today? Yeah,
1:07
so yeah started as an elementary teacher never
1:09
thought I'd end up where I am but life takes
1:12
us interesting paths. Spent about 20 years in
1:16
public education, teacher, coach, administrator,
1:20
director, in many different organizations. I
1:23
worked in Rochester City School District. I worked
1:25
in some rural areas. So I guess I just always
1:28
liked a lot of variety. Had a chance to start
1:31
up and run an online program, a virtual school,
1:34
while I was doing some of that work. And then
1:37
an opportunity came to maybe work beyond education
1:42
and support it from outside and thought it sounded
1:45
like an interesting way to go and have had a
1:48
chance to work with Dell, work with STACD, work
1:51
with Intel some doing some different work. And
1:55
now I am with Dell and the process there was
1:58
really just looking at the fact that I had a
2:01
lot of time, 20 years in education. How could
2:05
I further impact and move the field forward?
2:07
And it seemed like this could be an opportunity
2:09
and have had fun doing it. Yeah, and I know as
2:13
part of that time when you were in the classroom,
2:15
you're also recognized for your work around innovation.
2:19
You know, what were you doing in the classroom
2:21
that you think caused, you know, that really
2:24
caught people's attention? this is going to sound
2:31
strange but I felt like I feel like one of the
2:33
things is that I was always looking at the kids
2:35
in their future and that's become a thing for
2:37
me all along but what that meant though is that
2:41
I was always trying to figure out how I was helping
2:44
them look to their next step and so we did some
2:47
things such as way early on, and this is going
2:50
to date me, but I guess the gray beard shows
2:52
that for those who can see on video or see my
2:55
picture, is that in 2000, so way early on, we
2:59
were connecting with people around the world
3:01
in my classroom to ask them questions, to do
3:04
some projects and that sort of thing. So I was
3:07
already trying to push how can we leverage technology
3:11
in a way that helps us do learning differently
3:14
and always looking for that authentic meaning
3:17
for the students. And I think that just connected
3:20
and that went into them standing up the virtual
3:22
program that I ran because it was we can do this
3:25
differently. We can think about this differently.
3:27
We can be more personalized and support the students.
3:30
And then that went into when I was a director
3:32
and we looked at new and innovative ways to try
3:35
and really, yes, use technology, but more stay
3:39
true to what we know good learning looks like.
3:42
and just find new and innovative ways to do it.
3:44
So that's I think that's where I kind of connected
3:47
in. Yeah, so that drive seems to kind of come
3:50
from wanting to find a better place for students
3:53
to be and improve their learning here. Was there
3:57
any single moment that kind of sparked that for
3:59
you or is it just kind of was a gradual build
4:01
up through your years in education? Yeah, I guess
4:08
a specific moment in time was You know, I had
4:14
the opportunity to work with lots of other people.
4:18
When I was teaching in Rochester City though,
4:21
I had students who hadn't had the opportunity
4:25
to even be outside of the part where we were,
4:30
the inner city neighborhoods that they had lived
4:33
in, in their entire life. And this was upper
4:35
elementary school, age of about middle school.
4:39
as we began to expose and connect them, two things
4:43
happened. One was to see their eyes just open
4:47
to the world has potential that I never thought
4:50
of. And that hits any, I think, educator's heart.
4:54
But then the other piece was that they began
4:56
to connect with these other people who valued
4:59
what they were saying in their experience. And
5:01
they said, not only can I connect, but what I
5:04
have has value to the broader world, I can actually
5:08
do something that impacts the globe. And those
5:10
two pieces was, it was a project that we were
5:13
working on. It was a global project. We were
5:15
connected with five different places around the
5:17
world and we were all working to better understand
5:19
each other. But the idea was what can we do and
5:22
learn from each other, but do something together
5:24
for good. And so that's what came out of it.
5:26
And that just hit me. But Jeremy, what we see
5:31
a lot too, and Jeremy and I have talked to a
5:33
lot of folks that. They you know, they've been
5:36
in the classroom and then they'll they'll work
5:38
with various organizations on different initiatives
5:41
that revolve around ed tech and What what is
5:44
that experience been like for you? Like knowing
5:46
what it's like to be in a district and maybe
5:49
why do you think that that's like a really important
5:52
Perspective to have as you as you make a transition
5:55
to working for a company like Dell No, that's
6:00
I actually struggled with my transition because
6:03
mine wasn't looking for something. It was this
6:06
opportunity came up and I said, that sounds too
6:08
good to be true. And so then did finally move
6:11
over and it's been proving out right. The opportunities
6:15
to really help move forward. But to your point,
6:18
I think a lot of times within industry, those
6:23
who've got who are in industry, whatever they're
6:25
doing, you spend time in the classroom as a student.
6:29
never really understood what it means to really
6:32
help support an organization around teaching
6:34
and learning. And so as someone who's come from
6:38
having to do that at multiple levels, I've had
6:41
almost every position within a school district.
6:44
And so from multiple levels coming over and being
6:47
able to help Dell or other organizations better
6:51
understand what schools really need. that we
6:55
need to be thinking differently about not only
6:58
the support and the solutions on the product
7:02
side, but even more, how do we show up in schools
7:05
differently than we might show up at a company?
7:08
And that's really important to have that mindset
7:11
in education when you're working at a company,
7:15
and bringing that over helps them. I think from
7:17
the other side, I... Everything I do is viewed
7:21
from that lens of how do we help our students?
7:24
And I think that's the core of what education
7:26
is. And so from the educator's side, the leader's
7:29
side, as I'm working with them, they're saying,
7:31
all right, this guy has sat in my desk at one
7:34
point and kind of gets what we're doing. And
7:37
so the conversations of what we can do and how
7:40
we can support really shifts very quickly from,
7:43
OK, what's the latest technology that you have
7:46
to provide to us to How do we really hit the
7:50
core mission together? And that's been the exciting
7:53
part of this position that I've had. Yeah. And
7:56
I want to dig into some specific things too,
7:59
or, you know, Jeremy will as well with you, but,
8:01
um, as you kind of, as you've been with Dell,
8:04
what are some of the big like categories that
8:07
you've spent time being involved in and researching
8:09
and things like that? Like from, kind of from
8:11
the higher view, like what are the categories
8:13
that you've been involved with? Yeah, so I mean
8:17
if you kind of throughout time obviously thinking
8:19
about technology in its role So how does that
8:22
shift what we can do with teaching and learning?
8:25
And that's from the planning side with the teachers
8:29
to yes the students to the leaders the administrators
8:32
How do we open up the way we structure? Things
8:36
in a school and support our teachers so that
8:38
they can be more helpful And I know that's a
8:40
broad piece technology, but if you think about
8:43
it It's shifted the way that we access information.
8:46
It shifts the way that we can create. And all
8:49
of those core aspects of just the way we do school,
8:54
we need to have the conversations and think differently.
8:57
And then think about, so what does that mean
8:59
for our teachers with professional learning and
9:01
that sort of aspect? So I think that's one large
9:03
category. Another is looking at the space. So
9:07
thinking about the classroom space. Not first
9:10
of all, as you've heard some of the virtual things
9:12
that I've done, not saying you're stuck in the
9:15
classroom. How do you use technology to connect
9:17
outside and to bring the outside in appropriately
9:20
and connect out so the students have authentic
9:23
voice outside of just their classroom space,
9:25
but also even the physically space within the
9:28
classroom. If we have certain ways of thinking
9:30
and doing and we're trying to encourage certain
9:33
global competencies, certain skills for our students
9:37
to develop, how do you set up your room? so that
9:40
it supports that. And that's a really interesting
9:42
conversation to have. And then, of course, right
9:46
now, everyone is talking about AI. And so that's
9:50
a big one that we've been looking at as well,
9:54
obviously. And then I'd say the one last category
9:57
is that whole piece of students and how we help
10:01
them become members of a global community. and
10:08
really thinking about, yes, the skills, but also
10:11
the dispositions, and how do we create opportunities
10:14
for that? Sometimes that's within a curriculum
10:16
with a unit. Sometimes that's a whole course.
10:19
Sometimes that's an after school project. Sometimes
10:21
that's a challenge. So there's different ways
10:24
that we make sure students have the opportunity
10:26
to engage with different careers, yes, but also
10:29
where they're constantly building up those skills
10:31
they're gonna need for their future. And I think
10:33
that's been a core piece too that we've really
10:36
looked at. and thought about. Obviously, that
10:39
lines up well with the company point of view,
10:41
because as they look at the students coming into
10:44
the company, they want to make sure these students
10:46
have the types of skills they need. But from
10:50
an education point of view, looking forward,
10:53
that's also saying, all right, we want to prepare
10:55
students for their future, not just the workplace,
10:57
but the life they're going to lead. How do we
10:59
do that? Well, so I think that's another core
11:01
area that we've really I've had a chance to really
11:03
focus on. Yeah, and as you you have worked with
11:08
different districts like different different
11:10
contexts so thinking about like rural suburban
11:15
urban districts one of the things that Obviously
11:19
we all have in common is we're we're being impacted
11:22
by technology in some way and especially now
11:25
with AI right as you mentioned but as you worked
11:28
with schools in those different Context have
11:31
you noticed anything that is like commonalities
11:34
between them? or, and differences as well, like
11:38
in how maybe they approach talking about technology
11:42
or integrating technology. Is there anything
11:44
that has stood out to you? I think you're right.
11:49
There's an aspect that all of us are grappling
11:51
with. Technology is shaping our society and therefore
11:54
the future we're going to live in. It does look
11:57
different per context, though, at times. What's
12:00
ironic is I mentioned some of the students I
12:03
was working with, and I grew up in Rochester
12:05
City, and so I kind of can somewhat relate to
12:08
this for part of my life anyway, which is you
12:12
kind of get that neighborhood piece where you're
12:14
sort of within, yes, this broader city, but you
12:17
only interact with that small neighborhood. That's
12:19
very similar to what often happens with rural
12:21
students, too. So there's actually some interesting
12:24
connections across that. In terms of the technology,
12:27
I think it's a lot of times helping to see where
12:33
it's already embedded throughout society. I don't
12:37
think students or teachers sometimes realize
12:40
the extent to which it's embedded, so that as
12:43
you think about, well, I'm going to work on the
12:45
farm, as I work with some of the rural communities,
12:47
you'd say, great, let's go look at the farm.
12:50
Let's go see what they're doing there. And all
12:52
of a sudden you realize, All right, there are
12:53
some phones that are using drones to oversee
12:56
the pasture land. They're using data chips in
12:59
the ears for the cows when they come into milk
13:01
to be able to track what they're doing. So yeah,
13:05
OK, you want to be with your hands on the farm.
13:07
That's true. Technology still impacts because
13:09
it's a useful enabler for us to reach greater
13:13
levels as humanity. But that does mean you have
13:16
to figure that out. So I think that's some of
13:18
the pieces that I see sort of the connective
13:21
piece, and it is different per context what that
13:23
actually looks like. You know, one of the areas
13:27
that you've done some really good work in is
13:30
around the idea of data literacy. And so I'm
13:35
going to kind of switch. towards that as a topic.
13:38
But I mean, I think it applies to your farming
13:39
example that you were just talking about here,
13:42
too. You know, the importance of being able to
13:45
take the data that you have and use that data
13:47
to implement better processes or to find, you
13:52
know, more innovative ways to make connections,
13:56
you know, and maybe improve people's lives or
13:59
at least to, you know, in a classroom setting,
14:01
maybe to help improve the learning that's taking
14:03
place for those students, you know, like, why
14:05
is it though that you know like and I know like
14:09
when I hear data I'm like oh you know step back
14:12
I can't that that goes way beyond me and I don't
14:15
want to try to dig too deep into that but but
14:18
you know I I see the importance of it and the
14:20
relevance of it and why is it though that you
14:23
think it's school still struggle to help implement
14:27
you know really strong data literacy programs
14:30
yeah No, it's a good question. All right, I'm
14:34
going to share a little bit of a secret about
14:35
my life. When I started out as a teacher, I never
14:38
wanted to be an administrator. Ew. I never wanted
14:41
to work for a vendor. Ew. And are you kidding
14:44
me? Data numbers like spreadsheets. I knew how
14:47
to use them, but. come on that's boring okay
14:51
so it's kind of funny that now you're having
14:53
me kind of look at this piece um but it really
14:57
was sort of that that aspect that as you look
15:00
to the future if we're really focused on our
15:01
students well forget about the future look at
15:04
the current world Data is almost the blood, the
15:09
lifeblood of technology. It's what helps things
15:12
flow. It's what informs, we talk about AI. It's
15:15
what informs AI. It's what AI is trained on.
15:18
When you look at within just the future that
15:23
students have, we have a whole aspect where,
15:27
yes, you can look at the, you know, when you
15:30
look at the reports, a lot of times what you
15:31
see around data is here are the jobs for data
15:34
and that these are gonna grow. That's good. But
15:37
what you don't see a lot of times in those reports
15:39
is this is how every job is going to be using
15:42
data or AI in the use of data. And so back to
15:46
your question, I know I kind of went a little
15:48
field, but I'm coming back. The whole answer
15:50
your question around why it is two things. One,
15:54
in education, unfortunately, we tend to lag behind.
16:00
where things are. And so our curriculum, what
16:03
we see needs to be in place. A lot of times does
16:06
lag behind a little bit. And so in our standards,
16:09
data is a piece, but it's a one off. It's a unit
16:12
instead of realizing that throughout in social
16:16
studies and science, we should be looking at
16:19
data. We should be creating visualizations to
16:21
be able to share. How do you tell a data story?
16:24
That should be a part of our ELA classrooms.
16:27
That I don't think many places are ready to see.
16:30
But if you look at the curriculum though, what
16:33
the issue is, as I said, it's segmented. Now,
16:38
how to get it going forward, the piece that I
16:41
said, oh, data, I think is how many people see
16:44
it. And so that's, you mentioned some of the
16:47
work we've been doing. We've really been trying
16:49
to help have different programs, different projects
16:53
where both educators, as well as students can
16:56
start to see the power of data, the way that
16:59
data impacts their own life, the way that they
17:01
can utilize data to help improve their own life
17:03
and their learning processes. So that's some
17:07
of the work that we're working on to try and
17:09
do. But I think there's where the roadblock has
17:12
come with school districts is just it's not yet
17:16
seen as critical to our education because we're
17:20
still figuring out what that looks like. And
17:22
rightly so. We should never just say, Here's
17:25
the future, throw it into school. We need to
17:27
take the time to process it. But it's time. Yeah.
17:32
And I think one of the things that I think teachers
17:34
have always done well is to find ways to make
17:38
their content relevant to their students, whether
17:41
in one of the ways is through real world examples.
17:45
And so really, if we're focusing on data literacy
17:49
as part of that, I think connecting it to. material
17:53
or content or examples that students can relate
17:56
to is also really important. So can you tell
17:58
us a little bit about data dunkers? Yeah, so
18:01
it is taking all of what we just were saying
18:03
around the importance of data. But as you said,
18:06
connecting it to. the students. And so Data Dunkers
18:09
is a program that we've been running for about
18:12
three, four years at Dell now. And what it really
18:16
looks at is, yes, combining data literacy and
18:19
as AI has become more prevalent, AI literacy
18:22
with dunkers, basketball. And so we work with
18:26
Pascal Seacombs Foundation, PS43, and we use
18:30
data from the WNBA and NNBA to really look at
18:33
those pieces. And what students are doing is
18:36
they're asking questions of the data, and we
18:39
help them do that. They are also using some coding
18:43
and data tools that professionals use right within
18:47
there. And we help them hack the code, as we
18:49
say. But the idea is to take apart how how technology
18:54
interprets the data and what you have to watch
18:56
out for when technology is doing that, whether
18:59
it's AI or just a program script that someone
19:02
has written. And we help them create data visualization
19:04
so they can then tell a story. But also what
19:07
we do is we, to your point, connect it back to
19:10
real world. So they're actually collecting their
19:13
own data around basketball about different attributes
19:16
that they have. And then they do that same thing.
19:18
They analyze it. using these same tools, and
19:22
then they tell their own story or the story of
19:24
their team or their group. And so we have a lot
19:27
of fun with it, but that idea of where does it
19:30
connect? How do you see that when you went in,
19:33
you collected this data, and then you went back
19:35
and collected more data, how does that look different
19:37
now? And then we do spend some time looking at,
19:41
and so what does this mean for your future? And
19:42
we have some fun times with students kind of
19:45
digging into different careers that they might
19:49
be interested in and then as they look at those
19:52
finding out this is how data impacts that career
19:54
and the surprise that's on their face around
19:56
that I never realized that oh well I'm gonna
19:58
be a chef okay let's talk about how much data
20:02
actually impacts what you would do as a chef
20:04
really you know so those sort of things are just
20:07
fun to do within it but that's the program at
20:09
its core Hey, I really love hearing how you,
20:13
because literacy just seems to, in my mind, have
20:15
been a buzzword for the last couple of years
20:17
and everything has a literacy attached to it.
20:19
AI literacy, data literacy, reading literacy,
20:22
learning math literacy. I mean, it's all right
20:25
there. And to hear you describe it, you're putting
20:27
into this, the data dunkers program, like it
20:31
wraps and encompasses all of these different
20:33
types of literacies in it. Yeah. I'm laughing
20:37
because I agree with you. You forgot digital
20:39
literacy and digital media literacy. There you
20:43
go Information literacy. Yeah, we could keep
20:46
going but I think so often to your point a lot
20:49
of times literacy becomes Within those different
20:52
areas a specific thing The use of technology
20:55
is what digital literacy means. Well, hang on.
20:57
No, that's not what it is. You know, and so I
20:59
think with a program like this, what we're trying
21:02
to do is really get into this is how you actually
21:07
become literate with data so that you are aware
21:11
of it. You're able to use it and you're actually
21:14
able to tell a story with it because data is
21:17
more than just numbers. As we always say in our
21:19
program, it is about how can data be useful?
21:23
If it's not, then it's just numbers. Otherwise,
21:27
this is how it can impact lives. And we tell
21:30
great stories. Mind if I do a quick one? Yeah,
21:34
go right ahead. All right. So one of the things
21:35
we do is, I mean, this gets into those who are
21:37
more basketball geeky, but we tell about how
21:40
early on as they began to analyze data, they
21:42
began to see the aspect of where you shoot on
21:45
the court. between the three -point line where
21:48
you get three points versus two points within
21:49
the three -point line. If you're a step within
21:52
the three -point line versus at the three -point
21:56
line, the percentage of likelihood that you're
21:58
going to make the shot is pretty much the same.
22:01
And so you can see as from like early 2000s to
22:05
now where people are tending to take their shots
22:08
has changed dramatically. It used to be spread
22:11
across that court. Now it's either under the
22:14
hoop or at the three -point line. And that was
22:17
because they started to analyze the data. And
22:20
that kind of powerful story, especially for the
22:23
kids that like basketball, is meaningful. It
22:26
shows that it changed the whole sport. It's kind
22:30
of interesting because I oftentimes will tell
22:32
my wife something very similar when it comes
22:33
to buying Powerball tickets for the lottery.
22:36
Whether I buy one or 100, my statistical odds
22:40
of winning are about the same. But I have to
22:42
buy one. If you don't play, you can't win. All
22:46
right, was that just an ad? We shouldn't have
22:48
done that one. I was going to say too, I'm not
22:52
too big on data, but when fantasy football season
22:55
comes around, then I get into data quite a bit.
22:59
So, yeah. So, Jeremiah, I want to talk about
23:02
another thing here. We're a little bit removed
23:04
from ISTE now, a little over a month, and we
23:07
had a chance to meet briefly at ISTE, but you
23:10
had something going on there for the last couple
23:13
of years now. with the ISTE plus ASCD innovator
23:17
challenge. Can you talk a little bit about what
23:21
the innovator challenge is and what that provides
23:23
for students? Yeah, you bet. So yeah, I had a
23:27
chance to, even before working now with Dell,
23:30
work with ISTE ASCD, as you were just saying,
23:32
and helping to stand up and run this program.
23:34
And we have similar ones at Dell now that we're
23:37
looking to stand up as well and that we've done
23:39
in the past. And the core piece of that is really
23:42
saying Look, AI is out there. We do want students
23:46
to become, sorry, I'm going to say AI literate.
23:50
We do want them to be able to, though, beyond
23:52
that, how can we look at its use for good? So
23:57
how do we use it ethically and appropriately
23:59
for something good? And that was the core idea
24:01
behind the challenge. And then what we began
24:04
to do is put out this global challenge. OK, so
24:07
as a team, can you create, identify a problem
24:11
that's either in your community and whether that
24:14
community is local or global, and then come up
24:17
with something using AI that would help to address
24:20
that issue. And that at the core is what we were
24:23
doing. And we have seen some amazing things from
24:26
around the world, things such as how do you help
24:31
others understand sign language, either to learn
24:34
it, that was one piece, or another, these students
24:38
created a glove that would automatically recognize
24:42
as the sign was happening and then would read
24:44
out so that it became, yeah, I know, right? The
24:48
amazing things these students are doing and read
24:51
out what was being signed. We had other ones
24:54
that were looking at helping build financial
24:57
literacy. There you go. There's another one.
24:59
And then we just had these amazing pieces. And
25:02
what we found with that is that not only for
25:05
the students, These were great opportunities
25:08
for them. But then as we showcase this work,
25:12
it became no longer this, okay, how are the students
25:16
going to use AI to cheat, right? That's so often
25:19
the conversation or education became the, how
25:21
can we help our students be able to do that or
25:24
do things like that in their future? And so that's
25:27
really the work that we're looking to do is how
25:30
do we help build these skills? Yes. but in a
25:34
way that is meaningful to students and has them
25:36
focused on how do we better our community with
25:38
the skills that we're developing. Yeah, and you've
25:43
been kind of around. I mean, you went to the
25:46
UK as well, right? And with that UK in early
25:51
2026, and then you're at ISTE in the middle of
25:53
the year here. Probably something else big coming
25:56
up, I'm sure. But as you as you've been going
25:59
through that process and being involved with
26:03
Like the innovator challenge and kind of getting
26:07
the word out on some of those things. What to
26:10
you, how would you describe classroom ready AI?
26:14
Like what actually works for a teacher when they're
26:18
engaging with AI or trying to, you know, going
26:21
back to you mentioned AI literacy, trying to
26:24
help students understand. how to use AI. Is it
26:27
just the exposure through the innovator program
26:30
and things like that or are there other ways
26:32
that you think are really important too? No,
26:35
good call out. So we also recognize that the
26:39
exposure is good. even with a challenge. But
26:41
again, some of the programs that we're doing
26:42
at Dell that looks at how do we surround the
26:46
experience with the support where it's a purposeful
26:50
building of skills and understanding. So a lot
26:53
of times districts, teachers look at the efficiency
26:56
side for teachers. They look for students, the
26:59
ways in which students can use some of these,
27:02
get some coaching, get some feedback, that sort
27:04
of thing. All good. Like I don't want to say
27:07
that those aren't. But if we're really looking
27:10
to humans being the ones that continue to be
27:14
creative, curious. push the forward thinking,
27:18
then we need to have them creating. And I think
27:21
that's a piece that a lot of times is missed.
27:23
And that's what the challenge is meant to be.
27:25
How do we have them develop these skills of innovators?
27:29
How do we change the world and how do we create?
27:31
And so what we created this past time around
27:33
was actually a studio. So it was 15 lessons that
27:38
really helped take teachers through a process
27:41
that built in things like just the whole, how
27:46
do I create? How do I develop prototypes? So
27:48
that whole design thinking process was built
27:51
right in. But also, how do we think about design
27:54
thinking, not just from that sort of Western
27:57
world way? How do other people around the world
28:00
think about looking at and get that exposure
28:03
to different ways of doing designing and thinking?
28:06
And so that's what we built in. So they began
28:08
to have a scaffolded approach to then moving
28:11
it forward so that students are actually creating
28:15
with the AI and not just responding to something
28:20
that's already been put out there and created,
28:22
which is a lot of times the way that we do technology
28:25
as a whole, unfortunately. Yeah, and I think
28:30
so from your perspective then you would say that
28:33
Innovation is definitely a learnable skill that
28:36
students just need the chance the opportunity
28:38
to have a real -world Problem to apply it to
28:43
but then also the practice with it And as teachers
28:47
scaffolding it up. So absolutely in multiple
28:51
opportunities, too And I think that's one of
28:53
the things we're seeing this shift with AI is
28:56
a real shift to a more authentic You know, we
29:00
call it project based at times, problem based.
29:03
You can call it whatever you want, but it's looking
29:05
at students really addressing the world around
29:10
them and becoming a part of it and applying their
29:14
learning to it. You know, we talk about AI literacy
29:18
and so much of it is teach the prompt. The prompt
29:21
is just the way we communicate with AI. Really,
29:25
what we're needing to do is say, how do you define
29:28
a problem or the AI to then address, and then
29:32
how do you refine the solutions that an AI might
29:35
come up with? How do we think through that process?
29:38
And that is, to your point, something that we
29:40
can teach in a classroom and have done to help
29:46
them begin to develop those skills. We're very
29:48
worried that AI is going to take away critical
29:50
thinking. And that's one of the things I hear
29:53
a lot. I'll tell you the truth, before AI really
29:56
became as prevalent, that was still one of the
29:59
concerns we had. The students just weren't critical
30:02
thinkers anymore. And so I think we need to provide
30:05
opportunities in the classroom that pushes them
30:08
a bit to think critically. And if we don't have
30:11
those opportunities there, then no wonder they're
30:15
having a hard time being able to apply that skill.
30:17
They haven't had a chance to build up that muscle.
30:21
Yeah, I think I read somewhere or heard you say
30:24
I can't remember which it was that One of the
30:28
things that you love doing at Dell is having
30:32
brainstorm sessions where you can just let your
30:34
imagination run wild Is that something that we
30:37
can provide for kids? But then you know at then
30:39
that's just the starting point I think of that
30:41
design process that you're talking about. Well,
30:43
maybe recognizing a problem first then the the
30:46
ideation around it right then thinking theory
30:48
design thinking literacy skills here right but
30:51
um uh you know that's really what you're talking
30:54
about here right is providing those opportunities
30:56
for students to have some of those same sessions
30:58
like you're talking about just bring it to the
31:00
classroom you know repeat those at different
31:03
activities just applied to different courses
31:05
or content or or problems yeah Well, and I think
31:09
to your point of using brainstorming as a good
31:12
example, I think we talk about this with collaboration,
31:15
too. A lot of times when we think of how do we
31:18
be creative, we say, well, you brainstorm. What
31:21
does that mean? Come up with all the ideas you
31:23
can and put it on board. Collaboration. What
31:26
does that mean? Well, you just do something in
31:28
groups. And in both of those examples I just
31:31
gave, it's more than that. If you're trying to
31:34
be creative, it's more than just brainstorming.
31:36
And so understanding that and providing students
31:38
with an opportunity. And to your point, not just
31:41
saying what's crazy, but pushing their thinking.
31:44
Take two really crazy ideas. I've done with this
31:46
with leaders even. And mash those together. See
31:50
what works and doesn't work. And out of that
31:53
process, you're going to be able to better understand.
31:56
the problem, you'll define it better, but also
31:58
the potential solutions we have. We'll do one
32:00
activity that is just, what's the worst possible
32:03
solution to this problem? Wait, why the worst
32:06
possible? Because in defining the worst, you
32:08
start to define why is it the worst, and you're
32:10
defining what is actually going to make a good
32:12
solution. But it's fun to do the worst possible
32:15
because you get crazy with it, but it also pushes
32:18
your thinking outside of our sort of, okay, here
32:21
it is, now let's figure it out, move on, kind
32:23
of scenarios that we tend to do. Oh, I want to
32:30
address just a little bit more about you and
32:34
your background. And you have, I believe, you
32:39
have five kids, right? Yes. So, you know, and
32:44
I think one of your bios said your list is as
32:47
a father first there. So, you know, obviously
32:50
that's role number one. What's it been like,
32:52
you know, interacting with your kids and as you've
32:55
kind of gone around and you've... Worked with
32:57
all these different technologies and you know,
32:59
they've got their own school experiences and
33:01
things like that. And especially with AI, what,
33:04
what have some of those conversations been like,
33:06
or has it provided you any different insights
33:08
on things? Yeah. And especially the span of kids
33:11
at one point I had the oldest was leaving K -12.
33:15
and the youngest was just entering, so you kind
33:18
of get this spectrum of just seeing the changes
33:21
happen. It obviously, you know, around the dinner
33:24
table, wherever we have the conversations, I
33:26
think what's been most interesting is that times
33:28
have actually recorded them, with their permission
33:30
of course, because they'll say things about school
33:34
and they'll say... can I record that because
33:37
we need to hear from a student's perspective
33:39
in this presentation I'm about to do. And so
33:43
it's really good to have that kind of piece that
33:47
grounds me throughout to really see this is impacting
33:50
real kids. And also is the reason I do the work
33:53
I do. I think to your point of AI, it's been
33:57
interesting to many people say, well, yeah, technology
34:00
is a whole and even AI kids just do it because
34:03
they know it. What's been interesting is to see
34:05
I have two of my boys who don't want to use AI,
34:10
you know, for fun little things. Yes. But the
34:12
one he's into art and he's like, I get what AI
34:17
can do and how it can change, especially like
34:19
the movie industry is very much into that. But
34:22
at the same time. This is taking away creativity
34:26
from people and this is taking away what they
34:28
can do and he's kind of, I don't know if I like
34:31
AI, my other wants to become a programmer and
34:33
he's saying, it's going to steal my job. I don't
34:36
want to criticize it. Did you do that with AI?
34:40
because they asked him to take away my job. He's
34:41
14, by the way. So these are the kind of conversations
34:45
that I think sometimes are important for us to
34:47
have because we kind of put students all together.
34:50
So I think that's that's for me where it's been
34:52
grounding is to see the piece where, you know,
34:58
our students are kids. Yes. And they are looking
35:01
to their future too. And sometimes they almost
35:05
better understand the impact of this technology
35:07
on the society in which we live. And sometimes
35:09
we recognize and give them credit or we ourselves
35:12
are realizing. Yeah. And that's a really important
35:16
point. You kind of described yourself too as
35:19
a lifelong learner. And have you, I don't know
35:24
how much you've kind of thrown this one in, but
35:26
if you've looked at some of the screen time conversations
35:30
that I've gone in. What's your thoughts on the
35:34
impact of that? Like still trying to retain being
35:38
a lifelong learner, knowing that there's potential
35:42
disruptions to that, you know, maybe for overuse
35:46
of screen time or not for, you know, using it
35:50
as a kind of a more of a babysitter as opposed
35:54
to like something that really helps with learning.
35:57
Do you have any thoughts there just on like Trying
35:59
to retain those two things like knowing the importance
36:01
of technology and keeping that at the front as
36:05
well, because it is important for our students
36:07
future. But then at the same time, making sure
36:09
it's not disrupting the lifelong learning process.
36:14
It's a good call out and especially working now
36:16
for a technology industry. But I look back about
36:19
a year ago, I was working with early childhood
36:21
and how we bring STEM into that and help them
36:23
really understand that. And I think to your point.
36:27
One of the conversations we were having is, hang
36:31
on, yes, technology can do a lot, but where is
36:34
the appropriate use that's going to move forward
36:36
what we're trying to actually do with the students?
36:38
How do we ensure that technology is a connective
36:41
and not a siloing type of interaction that the
36:46
students are having? So we began to look at what
36:48
is core to good learning and could core to students
36:51
just being able to grow and develop as humans.
36:55
And then you say, and what are the tools and
36:57
resources to help me? And I think that's the
37:00
core of what the screen time conversation should
37:02
be. You look through sort of technology into
37:06
education history and so much what happens is
37:09
it's a new technology. Let's buy it. Let's throw
37:11
it in the classroom. Oh, it's not really working.
37:14
Well, that's because of the technology or that's
37:16
because of this teachers or that's because of.
37:19
And we never took the time to say, where does
37:22
it make sense? Yes, it provides us with a lot.
37:25
But where does it make sense for what our mission
37:27
and our core piece is? And so I think that's
37:30
the piece that is missing. And so tying it back
37:33
to the lifelong learning, you know, I'm still
37:35
going to use my technology to learn without a
37:37
doubt. And I think we should think about that
37:40
as well. For students, we need to help them also.
37:45
What is it that you want to learn and what are
37:46
some of the best ways to do that? Is it to go
37:50
to another human and have a conversation? probably
37:54
at some point in the process, you better do that.
37:57
And so realizing that that same thing that we're
38:00
grappling with as adults, it's not about banning
38:04
or increasing screen time, it's helping the students,
38:08
our children, better understand what is it you're
38:12
trying to do and how can technology help and
38:14
where is it gonna get in the way? Where will
38:16
it do like my son said, take away your job? No,
38:19
but where will it? make it so that you aren't
38:22
doing the thinking anymore. And that's the way
38:24
I shifted the conversation with him, where you're
38:26
not doing the thinking anymore and you're just
38:28
giving it to AI. Yeah, that's a problem. So I
38:31
think that's the piece that we need to work is
38:33
how do we help our students and ourselves continue
38:36
to be that lifelong learner and the focus on
38:39
the learner. And then how do we do that? Well,
38:41
of course, it's going to involve technology at
38:43
some point, but it's not all about the technology.
38:46
No, definitely not. I mean, even if you're going
38:48
to use technology to advance your own learning
38:51
in an area that you're interested or passionate
38:53
or curious about, it's really going to mean nothing
38:56
unless you can share that with other people.
38:59
And that is where, you know, you have to still
39:02
be able to connect with other people, you know,
39:05
to have those conversations where you can beyond
39:09
just show what you know, but actually engage
39:11
in meaningful, thoughtful dialogue. Well, and
39:15
that's why you have this podcast is how do you
39:17
take all that you've learned and help spread
39:19
out and connect with others? Yeah Yeah, absolutely
39:24
I think this is some of the best professional
39:26
learning that I've ever had is just being able
39:29
to bring on people like yourself And the other
39:31
guests that David and I have been fortunate to
39:33
have on our podcast. So that's that's really
39:36
great So I'm gonna kind of walk you into our
39:39
lightning round then if you are ready here, Jeremiah
39:42
and let's do it, you know You know, you can elaborate
39:46
as much as you need to on these first few questions.
39:49
But I'm going to kick it off with the first one.
39:52
And I know David had mentioned that you've been
39:53
to bet in London and this last is the live in
39:57
Orlando. What was the best part of each one of
39:59
those for you? The people, you know, and as you
40:06
kind of look at. people coming from all different
40:08
walks. I mean, over and back, that's amazing
40:11
to hear multiple languages, multiple cultures
40:13
all happening. And yet we're all trying to figure
40:16
out education. And so I think that's the biggest
40:20
piece is just to your point, the connection to
40:23
one another and being able to think together
40:26
about the future, what we're trying to do in
40:30
education and how technology can help. Doing
40:32
that together is great. What's a technology that
40:37
you were really excited about initially and it
40:40
blocked? Huh, that's a good one. Um, I Don't
40:50
know if it you know, I don't know if it quite
40:54
flopped But I would say a lot of the what you
40:58
would call the web to also the way in which you
41:01
could create and students could create right
41:04
on the fly. So your wikis your blogs, all of
41:07
that. I think that that was something I was extremely
41:11
excited about. And then it kind of got taken
41:15
over in a not so great direction. So it's not
41:18
that it flopped, but it went askew. All right.
41:21
I just remembered one other. I'm going to hit
41:23
the other. The other one I was super excited
41:24
about was like the VR, the 3D virtual. Again,
41:28
I wouldn't say it flopped, but in education,
41:30
we finally found maybe where it's niches. I don't
41:32
even know if we still have yet. So that's one
41:35
that I'm not sure we've quite figured out yet,
41:36
but I was super excited. Still think it's cool,
41:39
but yeah, not there yet. What one word would
41:42
you use to describe the moment in education you
41:46
think our schools are in right now? Not doing
41:50
so good. I'm being lightning on these sorry about
41:52
that Lightning this is where it's random Chipping
42:01
point And and I feel like we've been at those
42:04
before but it's I realize that's kind of a hyphenated
42:08
word But I'm gonna use it. I just feel like We
42:11
say we've been there before, but the world really
42:14
is quite changing. The pressures come to such
42:16
a point and we see the way in which students,
42:20
teachers are shifting out of more of our formal
42:24
or our sort of public education systems even
42:27
globally and recognizing the need to say we need
42:31
to figure out the way learning looks now and
42:34
into the future. What's your favorite thing about
42:37
living in Rochester? that it has the value of
42:43
a city but not so much that I can't get from
42:45
one side to the other in like 30 minutes. So
42:50
what's the population of Rochester? I'm just
42:52
kind of trying to draw a comparison to Rochester,
42:55
Minnesota, which is the Rochester that's closest
42:57
to us Mayo Clinic and all that. And I kind of
43:00
think the same thing about that is you can kind
43:02
of go back and forth across that city pretty,
43:05
you know, relatively easily. I think in the greater
43:09
Rochester area, so not just the city court itself,
43:11
we're at about a million, I think is what we're
43:13
at. So it might be smaller than that. Someone's
43:16
going to fact check me and say you're completely
43:18
wrong. You don't know your own city that you
43:19
live in. But I think that I've heard that at
43:22
one point or another. But yeah, it's the culture
43:24
that's there. All of those great pieces, the
43:27
food. Sure. you know you touched on this here
43:32
a little bit you know besides recording your
43:34
kids at the dinner table what's conversation
43:36
like around for your family when you're when
43:38
you're sitting down to dine together i find that
43:43
we are either having these really um deep conversations
43:48
that seem to just that's what and maybe they
43:51
get it for me i don't know but they will all
43:53
of a sudden come up with these things and they
43:55
will go deep on any topic you want. We've got
43:58
the one that's the expert on any animal you could
44:01
ever believe in. It used to be he'd make things
44:03
up sometimes, now you fact check him he's always
44:05
right. It's just amazing. Either that or we've
44:08
got the others that we're gonna just start singing.
44:11
We're into musicals and everything as a family
44:13
so they want to talk about all of that sort of
44:16
thing. Or honestly, I do have this one daughter
44:18
that will just break into song and we'll just
44:20
start singing and get the rest of us to try and
44:22
sing too. So that's that's what our dinner table
44:25
looks like. It's pretty lively, especially with
44:27
when all seven of us are there. Well, good. This
44:31
next one here is going to stick with that musical
44:32
theme here. So David and I are going to have
44:34
a conference tomorrow. You're going to be our
44:37
keynote speaker and walking out on stage. What
44:40
do you want that walk up song to be as you're
44:43
getting in front of the people and you want to
44:46
energize them ready for a spectacular keynote?
44:51
All right. And be careful here because David's
44:54
going to take the song and he's going to add
44:55
it to our integrate this playlist that we have
44:57
of all of the choices of our guests. That's okay,
45:01
that's okay. I think this is one is good. Although
45:03
you want to start it about mid song, I would
45:06
say so I'll go with the musicals theme. So come
45:10
alive from greatest showman. Right in the middle
45:13
of that is where it says, you know, we're going
45:16
to go into the future with eyes wide open. And
45:20
the whole song is really talking about taking
45:24
who you are and being okay with living that out.
45:28
And I think that right now in education, students,
45:33
teachers, they need to be seen, they need to
45:35
be supported right now. And so I think if we
45:37
can do that and then face our future, eyes open,
45:40
not trying to hide, not saying we're not ready
45:42
to face that yet, but say, Let's figure this
45:45
out together. I think that would just be phenomenal
45:48
to just have that kind of energy to start out
45:51
the conversation so we can move forward with
45:53
it. Yeah, I love that choice. Just the message
45:56
of it is kind of the impactful part of it, right?
46:00
OK, so this next little section here, we are
46:02
going to limit you here to just one or the other
46:05
hits of this or that. OK, OK. All right. And
46:08
the first one here, you have to choose one of
46:10
these two things that is going to cease to exist.
46:13
Which are you going to give up? Sports or technology?
46:19
Sports. Okay. Would you rather communicate via
46:24
text or on a call? Call. I'm old school. Do you
46:31
prefer the mountains or the beach? Mountains.
46:36
If you're traveling in the car, are you listening
46:39
to music or a podcast? One. Podcast. I am on
46:48
a podcast. I got to do that. There you go. Would
46:53
you rather take a road trip across the country
46:55
or fly to get to where you need to go? All day
46:58
road trip. Love them. Awesome. And an NBA game
47:03
with the kids or a quiet weekend at home? quiet
47:07
weekend at home. Perfect. Well, Jeremiah, thank
47:11
you so much here for joining us on the podcast
47:13
here. But before we let you off the hook, we'd
47:15
love to give you an opportunity here to plug
47:18
anything that you have coming up or give a shout
47:20
out to any particular thing that you would like
47:24
to highlight or add your socials or anything
47:27
like that. Yeah, I just say, you know, Adele,
47:31
we just expanded with this team that we have
47:33
of educational strategists, my type of role.
47:36
connect with yours in your region. We all came
47:39
from education. We're all trying to figure this
47:41
out together with our schools, our districts.
47:45
So I'd say that that's sort of the plug, because
47:47
we do have programs like Data Dunk Girls, Girls
47:49
Who Games, Dell Student Tech Crew, that we're
47:52
really wanting to move forward, as well as just
47:54
our support of what you're trying to do. So I'd
47:56
say that. Connect with me on LinkedIn, Jeremiah
47:59
Frank. You'll find me there. Fortunately, not
48:02
a ton of Jeremiah's and very few Franks. So you
48:05
put those two together, you usually find me.
48:08
Well, perfect. We'll make sure to link any of
48:10
those things in the show descriptions here as
48:12
we release them. But again, thank you so much
48:15
for joining us. Yeah, great. Thank you for having
48:17
me. This has been good. Thanks for listening
48:22
to integrate this. Want to take your learning
48:25
further? Head over to our YouTube channel for
48:28
quick tutorials, deep dives. and more EdTech
48:31
tips you can use right away. Don't forget to
48:34
subscribe and catch new podcast episodes every
48:37
Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
48:41
your podcasts. Until next time, keep exploring,
48:45
keep innovating, and keep integrating this.