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With Great Power #289... 22 Panels with Rafael Scavone · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

0:01
Tad Eggleston: Good afternoon, everybody. My guest today on 22 Panels is Rafael Scavone.
0:09
Tad Eggleston: From Brazil.
0:12
Tad Eggleston: So, so, so we're adding a new continent… no, I can't remember. No, we're not adding a new continent, because I think I had a couple of Chilean cartoonish.
0:22
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
0:23
Tad Eggleston: But we're adding a new country. I think you're the first Brazilian that I've talked to.
0:29
Rafael Scavone: honored.
0:30
Tad Eggleston: First Brazilian that I've talked to in Brazil, because we were just talking about my friend Chris Cicada, and she's from Brazil, but living in Milwaukee, so, you know, it doesn't feel like I'm…
0:42
Tad Eggleston: I just, you know, we're checking countries off the list. We've been to half of Europe, we've been to Australia, we've been to Japan, you know, now Brazil. So, Rafael, how are you doing? Thanks for joining us.
0:53
Rafael Scavone: I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for having me, I'm good.
0:56
Tad Eggleston: Absolutely. I have spent, last night and this morning reading all sorts of your work, not quite as much as I had intended, because as I just mentioned, I have a…
1:08
Tad Eggleston: grandkids running around, but I got through Hailstone, both the original and the first issue of the new. I read Funny Creek this morning, and I'm halfway through Sliced.
1:17
Tad Eggleston: And I'm, and I'm loving, I'm loving, like…
1:21
Tad Eggleston: kind of the range of what you write. It's always fun when people don't do just, like, that one thing, but kind of…
1:30
Tad Eggleston: mess around. So, Hailstone's the new one, your second…
1:36
Tad Eggleston: Hailstone, what's the… what's the subtitle on this Hailstone?
1:39
Rafael Scavone: The devil… actually, it's Devil's look.
1:41
Rafael Scavone: Devil's Law. Right. Yeah, it's a hailstone story.
1:45
Tad Eggleston: Right.
1:46
Rafael Scavone: it's a kind of spin-off, because, Devil's Luck, because Harvest Stone was… was… was conceived to be, like, a playground for all her stories, so…
1:58
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
1:59
Rafael Scavone: This, this was the idea, since the… since the first vellum,
2:04
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
2:05
Rafael Scavone: the one in the Civil War. And… so the Devil's Luck is like a… it's a spin-off.
2:12
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. It's the same.
2:13
Tad Eggleston: It's, it's…
2:14
Rafael Scavone: It's been off.
2:15
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, but it's more Depression era, right?
2:18
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, isn't it?
2:19
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, so you jumped 60 years forward, same town.
2:23
Tad Eggleston: similar issues and weirdness going on.
2:27
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. The only rule I have for Hailstone is, like, is work with Jenner, or her, and the location, and Hailstone, and that's it. This is my rule. So, and these stories must be, like, a standalone story.
2:44
Tad Eggleston: Right. That's it. So, I'm fascinated that… a Brazilian writer chose Montana.
2:53
Tad Eggleston: As… as the site… a site of your horror universe. How did that happen? That's…
3:01
Rafael Scavone: Don't get me wrong, I've been to Montana, there are some horrific
3:07
Rafael Scavone: There's some cool things in… I mean, Missoula's kinda cool. Missoula's kinda cool.
3:12
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah. But the wide open spaces in the United States, where there's…
3:18
Tad Eggleston: Lots of guns and not many people.
3:21
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, this… I've never been to Montana, but the idea came from the first column, because I need an… how can I say it? A snowbound towel?
3:34
Tad Eggleston: Right. Isolated town.
3:35
Rafael Scavone: And… and I… I want to have, like, a Native American presence, and… and I want it to not, to be in the area of the Civil War battles.
3:47
Rafael Scavone: So, I needed to be…
3:49
Tad Eggleston: from D&D.
3:49
Rafael Scavone: Keep your way.
3:50
Tad Eggleston: Best.
3:50
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
3:51
Tad Eggleston: West and North. Yeah, no, I like it.
3:53
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it's not me, because I, I, I'm, I'm… I'm a historian by, by…
3:59
Rafael Scavone: by, I study history in university, but I don't want to have, like, a history
4:07
Rafael Scavone: heavy in the story I wrote. It's just a… it's just a background, because I want to work with the characters and the story itself, but not a history with age, you know? Right, right. That's the idea.
4:21
Tad Eggleston: No, I…
4:22
Rafael Scavone: the cues for Montaigne was more like, what's the cool landscape, and the mountains, the snow, and the Native American? I, I love, I love the Blackfoot and the, and the…
4:35
Rafael Scavone: And that kind of, how can I say, like, it is a horse, and like, you know, it's more a visual concept than, you know, because I've never been to Montana. I've been to several places in the U.S, but not Montana, so… Well, I mean, it's not the…
4:52
Tad Eggleston: First place that most people go.
4:54
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, but… It's not. I mean… I would love to visit, too.
4:58
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I like… I have to be careful, because I have friends in Montana, so I don't like to… I don't like to bash it.
5:05
Tad Eggleston: You know, wherever, wherever my friends are in Montana is cool.
5:13
Tad Eggleston: And it's very pretty.
5:15
Rafael Scavone: But it's… it's like… it's like a lot of things in the US, it's huge.
5:19
Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
5:19
Rafael Scavone: Here's the thing.
5:20
Tad Eggleston: I mean, it's…
5:21
Rafael Scavone: It's kind of the same with Brazil. Everything is, like, huge. When you travel to Europe, it's so… everything's so close, small, but the scale is so different in the US and Brazil as well.
5:32
Tad Eggleston: I mean, my wife is from South Dakota, which is on one level, not far from Montana, and on another.
5:40
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
5:41
Tad Eggleston: very far from Montana, depending on how.
5:43
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah.
5:44
Tad Eggleston: measure such things. But she always laughs because, like, people who aren't from South Dakota
5:52
Tad Eggleston: know about the Black Hills, Deadwood, and, like, Mount Rushmore, which are all on the western side of the state. So, like, she'll say she's from South Dakota, and they'll be like, oh, so you must go to Mount Rushmore all the time. And she's like, that's, like, 9 hours from where I grew up.
6:10
Rafael Scavone: It's so far. Yeah, yeah.
6:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it scale with something. It scale with something, yeah, yeah.
6:19
Tad Eggleston: So, I like it, so you're a historian, but…
6:26
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
6:26
Tad Eggleston: Bye. Do you have a particular, specialty?
6:34
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I work a bit with archaeology, Here in Brazil.
6:39
Rafael Scavone: I work with prehistoric archaeology and historical archaeology as well.
6:43
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
6:44
Rafael Scavone: But my, my, my, my… because I started working with comics professionally about 10 years ago, because before that, I worked with archaeology, and then I worked with design.
6:57
Rafael Scavone: for internet, I travel a bit, working.
7:02
Rafael Scavone: For that, and then when I come back to my hometown, where I live now, in Puerto Alegre, in south of Brazil, close to Argentina and Uruguay.
7:11
Rafael Scavone: I met an old friend that we used to make pomeca in my teens, like Fanzinis, and he's Rafael Obuketti, you know.
7:23
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
7:23
Rafael Scavone: Yep.
7:25
Tad Eggleston: I do.
7:25
Rafael Scavone: we are old friends, so we start to hang out again, and he said something to me that really marked with something like, that I had something unsolved with comics. Because I used to make comics, I can draw as well, so comics was my first medium.
7:44
Rafael Scavone: Because I think I started to read comics, so I'm really into comics when I was a thing. But I… you know, I had to study, and I stopped to read comics and making comics, but when… when I met Hafa again, that was, you know, like a…
8:04
Rafael Scavone: And I start to work with him like an assistant, art assistant.
8:08
Rafael Scavone: And then I work with, as editor, as translator, as letter. I, I made all the process, you know, like, all the…
8:16
Rafael Scavone: process of making comics, and at the same time, I will start writing, scripting, and then I start writing comics. So, I always loved to write, so it was quite natural, you know. I used all the skills I learned, special layouting, because I used to make a lot of layouts for him.
8:35
Rafael Scavone: You know? Right. For a lot of comics, really.
8:38
Rafael Scavone: And so was natural for me. But that was my background. I love history, I read a lot of things about history, but I used to work with more archaeology stuff.
8:51
Rafael Scavone: Okay. And Brazil is not so, it's something we need to… how can I say? We need to work more with our college here, because as the U.S. is a really, how can I say, is a really new country. It's not new, we know there's, like, a…
9:10
Tad Eggleston: Right.
9:10
Rafael Scavone: the native people, but the country as a country is so, so new, and archaeology is something starting to… to get bigger now, but I.
9:21
Tad Eggleston: Right.
9:21
Rafael Scavone: I hope to have time in mind.
9:24
Rafael Scavone: My…
9:25
Tad Eggleston: In your future?
9:26
Tad Eggleston: Once your toddler's not as much of a toddler.
9:28
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, exactly.
9:30
Rafael Scavone: to come back a bit to our college, I love it. It's one of my passions.
9:36
Tad Eggleston: I, I, I, I, I love that, that… Circle, and, and…
9:42
Rafael Scavone: It's a cycle.
9:43
Tad Eggleston: Well, but also, you know, the history shows… I mean, I've only read the 3 comics recently, and maybe only the three comics, period. I'd have to, like, dig through your catalog. I read so many comics, I can't always…
9:58
Tad Eggleston: them all.
9:58
Rafael Scavone: seller.
9:59
Tad Eggleston: I'm pretty certain that I read Sliced years ago, but I don't remember how I'm only halfway through it.
10:08
Rafael Scavone: It came, it came, it came 2 years ago? Yeah. Maybe?
10:13
Tad Eggleston: No, I'm pretty certain I read it when it came out, but I don't…
10:16
Rafael Scavone: Oh, awesome.
10:17
Tad Eggleston: But I'm rereading it today, and going, Kind of remember this.
10:23
Rafael Scavone: Oh, cool, cool.
10:26
Tad Eggleston: Because, cause that's just the, the, the… again, like, oh, and as I'm… yes, I've definitely read your hit girl.
10:34
Rafael Scavone: Oh, it's good, yeah.
10:35
Tad Eggleston: That was fun. I mean, this is, this is… I've read Study in Emerald.
10:41
Tad Eggleston: Oh.
10:42
Rafael Scavone: Cool.
10:44
Tad Eggleston: Probably read your Wonder Woman work.
10:47
Tad Eggleston: So, yeah.
10:48
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, that was my first comic. That was the first comic I published in the US.
10:52
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
10:53
Rafael Scavone: That was… yeah, that's cool.
10:55
Tad Eggleston: So…
10:56
Rafael Scavone: As well, it seems so, so… 10 years ago, I think.
11:00
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. No, this is just…
11:01
Rafael Scavone: 16.
11:02
Tad Eggleston: I, I, I always, I always laugh when I, when I under-prepare, like, and I apologize, I under-prepare today. It's the holidays.
11:09
Rafael Scavone: My kids are… It's okay.
11:10
Tad Eggleston: You know… And then I, like, pull up the list of stuff, oh, I know that, and I know that, and I know that.
11:19
Rafael Scavone: Oh, that's that. It's cool! That's cool.
11:23
Tad Eggleston: But, like, in the work of yours that I know, you can feel that love for history, you know, you don't…
11:31
Rafael Scavone: Thanks.
11:31
Tad Eggleston: you don't…
11:33
Tad Eggleston: as you pointed out, you don't have… you don't like the… you make it about the characters, you don't… you don't make it about the history and whatnot, but… but at the same time, you get the period right. I mean, it really feels like you've got that archaeologist, anthropologist…
11:51
Tad Eggleston: eye to it.
11:53
Rafael Scavone: Thank you.
11:53
Tad Eggleston: Even in, even doing, even doing, I, I read, what's the TV one?
11:59
Tad Eggleston: the Funny Creek…
12:00
Rafael Scavone: You are a funny, funny, funny creek this morning.
12:03
Tad Eggleston: Well, and, and like… you managed to both capture 50s US and, like, the…
12:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
12:15
Tad Eggleston: the early cartoon era of TV.
12:18
Tad Eggleston: In a really kind of interesting way.
12:21
Tad Eggleston: You know, that I just… I really.
12:25
Rafael Scavone: Jesus.
12:26
Tad Eggleston: So, so, like.
12:27
Rafael Scavone: Dang, thank you.
12:28
Tad Eggleston: This is all my way of saying, when you said history, I just… it, like, clicked in my head like a puzzle. Oh, that makes sense to me!
12:38
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, history… I think history is fascinating, because it's like… we used to… I had a teacher who used to say that history is like the mother of all science.
12:49
Rafael Scavone: My class is not… a science per se, but it's, like, everything… when you start to study a subject.
12:57
Rafael Scavone: like, bless. Probably the first chapter of a book would be, like, the history of class, you know? Because you need to know where things come from. So, this is the cool thing about history. It gives you a cool background to play with a lot of subjects, so…
13:15
Tad Eggleston: My autistic brain that likes to bring everything together, like, the thing that I want is the history book that has more science in it, the history book that has more math in it, the history book.
13:27
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
13:27
Tad Eggleston: You know, because I think that… I think that sometimes by siloing so much of our… Learning.
13:35
Tad Eggleston: You, like, we're missing the big pictures?
13:39
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Yeah.
13:40
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean, there's something significant about the fact that Beethoven and Franklin were on Earth at the same time.
13:50
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:51
Tad Eggleston: You know what I mean? And that's not something that people think about very often, is, oh, 9th.
13:56
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
13:56
Tad Eggleston: Civil War… er, Revolutionary War?
13:59
Tad Eggleston: I mean, never mind thinking about histories countries to countries, which we often don't do. It's like, nobody…
14:07
Tad Eggleston: even with my crazy brain, half the time, I can't tell you what's happening… what was happening elsewhere in the world during major times in the United States. You know, and it's like…
14:19
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
14:21
Tad Eggleston: But all of that matters. It all interplays, you know, there's a…
14:26
Tad Eggleston: Reason why, you know, this follow…
14:30
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I don't know…
14:31
Tad Eggleston: That's also why.
14:32
Rafael Scavone: Before you tell me.
14:33
Tad Eggleston: is so cool.
14:34
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you… it's not about comics, but it's a bit about.
14:40
Tad Eggleston: Oh, we talked about everything, so…
14:42
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, so there's a book, there's a book, I read, like, 2 years ago. It's, The Down of Everything. I don't know if you heard about this.
14:50
Tad Eggleston: Yes!
14:51
Rafael Scavone: Oh, wow.
14:52
Tad Eggleston: I love that book.
14:53
Rafael Scavone: I've read it like that.
14:53
Tad Eggleston: Three times. And, and found out about it from another comic book guy, because Dave Chisholm was all over that.
15:02
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That book's amazing. Oh, it's amazing.
15:07
Tad Eggleston: Oh!
15:07
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
15:08
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean, it just… I mean, aside from having me rethink so many things that I knew to be true…
15:15
Tad Eggleston: or knew to be true.
15:17
Rafael Scavone: Oh, bid.
15:18
Tad Eggleston: Big air quotes for those listening at home.
15:22
Rafael Scavone: Take it.
15:24
Tad Eggleston: Again, it's the interplay that we so often…
15:28
Tad Eggleston: I mean, and this is where I, like, I'm aware that I come from the most myopic culture in the world. I'm a white American male of European descent.
15:40
Tad Eggleston: We're really, really good at not believing, or at least not thinking very hard about whether or not things…
15:49
Tad Eggleston: that aren't directly in our line of descent may have influenced us in age.
15:54
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
15:56
Tad Eggleston: How many Americans think rock and roll started with white people?
16:00
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, things… I think I have a rule, I think almost always work. It's like, the older you get.
16:11
Rafael Scavone: If you, if you were not with more doubts than certainty, You will get things wrong.
16:18
Tad Eggleston: You're… yeah, you're not.
16:19
Rafael Scavone: Not paying attention. Yeah.
16:21
Tad Eggleston: trusted.
16:21
Rafael Scavone: This, this is the thing, this is the thing.
16:23
Tad Eggleston: Yes, and this is… this is… I mean, I forget if I… I think it was off-air that I was mentioning that I think you're the first person I've talked to in Brazil. We've talked to people.
16:33
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, sad.
16:34
Tad Eggleston: In Chile.
16:35
Rafael Scavone: Besides Chris, yeah.
16:37
Tad Eggleston: Right, right. One of the things I love about the number of different people that I've gotten to talk to.
16:44
Tad Eggleston: And the number of people I read, you know? More and more, it's like, I want to read stuff that's outside of my perspective.
16:53
Tad Eggleston: But what's also great about getting to talk to people who have lived those different lives is, like, it's great to see the things that are very much the same. There's a lot of humanity that is humanity no matter where you are. But then there are other things that is, like.
17:08
Tad Eggleston: Mind-blowing to see… How just a little bit different of a perspective goes…
17:18
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
17:18
Tad Eggleston: No, I get it.
17:21
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
17:22
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it's, it's, it's…
17:24
Rafael Scavone: It's… it's a… I think it's a shame… it's a shame you want to think about Western culture. I put myself inside the same culture, even as a Latino, because in Brazil, we're very cultured. We have a lot of influence from the US and Europe, so…
17:42
Rafael Scavone: I grew up reading comics, like Marvel DC, and comics from Brazil as well, and Europe, but,
17:50
Rafael Scavone: We have so many… so many… the variety of things, you know? We can… we can…
17:58
Rafael Scavone: understand and learn from the world today with internet and no boundaries, are so great, and… but we are narrowing.
18:07
Rafael Scavone: Right. We're like, narrate our vision. This, this is something that anguished me, you know? Yeah.
18:13
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I went to… something… something curious, because I went to…
18:18
Rafael Scavone: five years, before the pandemic, I went to the Amazon. I've never been to Amazon, but I went to the Amazon with my wife, and we spent, like, one month traveling in Amazon, and it's a so different country, because I'm.
18:31
Tad Eggleston: Right.
18:32
Rafael Scavone: south of Brazil is so Europe stuff.
18:34
Tad Eggleston: Right, right.
18:35
Rafael Scavone: And when I, when I arrive in the Amazon, and it's, wow, it's, it's, it's, it gives me goosebumps, because…
18:42
Rafael Scavone: Whoa, it's amazing.
18:44
Rafael Scavone: It's another world, you know, it's so different, everything's different. Not the accent, but the… it's a different country, it's a different world.
18:52
Tad Eggleston: No, I, so… I mean, this is obviously,
19:00
Tad Eggleston: a European lens on it, but my family has a…
19:07
Tad Eggleston: Like, a number of us watch a movie together every… weak.
19:13
Tad Eggleston: Or we watch it, and then we get together and we talk about it. And…
19:16
Rafael Scavone: Oh, that was awesome!
19:17
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, and, like, a month.
19:18
Rafael Scavone: Altogether?
19:20
Tad Eggleston: Well, we talk… a number of us get together on Zoom and talk about it. We watch it separately, but then get together…
19:26
Rafael Scavone: God, that's.
19:27
Tad Eggleston: Right. But, but, but recent, er, probably a month, two months ago, we did a, a Gehre, the Wrath of God, which is,
19:36
Tad Eggleston: So we're not.
19:37
Rafael Scavone: hurts.
19:37
Tad Eggleston: luck.
19:38
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, yeah, her dog.
19:40
Tad Eggleston: But it was… but it was filmed in the.
19:41
Rafael Scavone: Amazon.
19:42
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, this move was…
19:44
Tad Eggleston: And… exactly, you know, what you were just describing, you know, I mean, what I loved about this movie more than anything was the fact that it wasn't overproduced at all, so you had this real feeling of…
20:03
Tad Eggleston: Amazon wilderness, which as much as, on one level, it's like, oh, you know.
20:10
Tad Eggleston: wilderness has similarities, you know? Also, it has, you know, a very unique feel to it, and… and, like…
20:20
Tad Eggleston: So…
20:21
Rafael Scavone: Yay.
20:21
Tad Eggleston: You're talking about the goosebumps. I haven't been there, but I still got the goosebumps a little bit, just from thinking back to… to watching a movie that had gone out of its way not to…
20:32
Tad Eggleston: not to put too much of a shine on it, I guess, is what I'm looking at. You know, movies sometimes… movies, they sometimes, like, they try to put the absolute best version out. I mean, for that
20:45
Tad Eggleston: I even compared it… we watched African Queen recently, too, and while that was shot on… on location…
20:55
Tad Eggleston: In Africa,
20:58
Tad Eggleston: it never, you know, it felt like John Houston was trying much harder to make it seem like a movie, whereas Herzog was making it
21:07
Tad Eggleston: Trying to make it seem like you were there.
21:11
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, like, more of a documentary. Right. Yeah.
21:14
Tad Eggleston: Right.
21:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
21:17
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, that sequence in the boat with the monkey? Yeah. It's, it's… oh, it's…
21:23
Tad Eggleston: So, yeah, no, I…
21:26
Rafael Scavone: I want to rewatch that again, that now you…
21:31
Tad Eggleston: It's really good!
21:32
Rafael Scavone: I gave.
21:32
Tad Eggleston: do this.
21:33
Rafael Scavone: It's good, it's good, good.
21:35
Tad Eggleston: It's weird, because I think it was filmed in South America, where most of the actors spoke…
21:48
Tad Eggleston: because I think it was… it was filmed mostly in Mexico and Peru, so… so most of the actors spoke either… either Spanish or…
21:58
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, we're ordering…
21:59
Tad Eggleston: native language, because, right.
22:01
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
22:01
Tad Eggleston: And, and, and,
22:04
Tad Eggleston: Kinski was speaking German, but I want to say the first language… er, no, I guess German was the first language, but had to be dubbed into German.
22:13
Rafael Scavone: And now… and now it's most available in Spanish, even though it was dubbed in… Yeah.
22:20
Tad Eggleston: Do you read it? How do you have to read the English.
22:21
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
22:22
Tad Eggleston: It's like, I don't even know how this all worked.
22:26
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah. Her song is a really interesting filmmaker.
22:30
Tad Eggleston: He is.
22:31
Rafael Scavone: There's… I know, I can't remember the name of that movie. He used, like, a huge boat.
22:39
Rafael Scavone: And he… yeah, it's… it's… it's record… The one that… the one that's in the tree?
22:46
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, the wonderland, they…
22:47
Tad Eggleston: That, that's Aguirre.
22:49
Rafael Scavone: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Different one?
22:52
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it's a different one, like a huge boat, like a modern boat.
22:56
Tad Eggleston: I remembered Nate.
22:58
Rafael Scavone: But he's a really interesting filmmaker. Have you seen The Cave of Forgotten Dreams?
23:03
Tad Eggleston: Cave of Fr… I haven't.
23:05
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, he should… this is… it's more recent from Herzog, and he… he got,
23:12
Rafael Scavone: to… yeah, he had exclusive access to a cave in southern France.
23:18
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
23:19
Rafael Scavone: The cave was still, like, a thousand years.
23:21
Tad Eggleston: With…
23:22
Rafael Scavone: It's like.
23:23
Tad Eggleston: No, no, see, there are some of us who believe that this cave is the first comic in the world.
23:31
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Oh, this is what I was about to tell him.
23:34
Rafael Scavone: it's… you should see, it's amazing. And when… when he… when he… he shows the… the paintings with the light effect, with the flame effect, you understand, like, a mo… it's like a… motion, like a, animation. It's… it's amazing.
23:51
Rafael Scavone: It's amazing.
23:52
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
23:52
Rafael Scavone: It's hard to believe that it was made, like, 50,000 years ago.
23:57
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, that just went… that just went on my list.
23:59
Rafael Scavone: It's linked with the donor for Everything, you know? What we're talking about, you know, yeah.
24:07
Tad Eggleston: It's just all over the place. You know,
24:11
Tad Eggleston: A Brazilian comic, I was talking to Eric Reynolds from Fanographics yesterday.
24:18
Tad Eggleston: Brazilian comics came up because they've done a decent number of Brazilian translations, but… but he…
24:26
Tad Eggleston: But they were actually kind of late in the game. He talked about he'd recently visited for the first time, and just was like.
24:33
Rafael Scavone: Oh.
24:34
Tad Eggleston: blown away with how… You like it? Yes, but the comic culture and, like, you know, so they're hoping to do…
24:41
Rafael Scavone: I have something, I have something to show him, because this book, I just launched here in Brazil.
24:46
Tad Eggleston: President and Antarish?
24:48
Rafael Scavone: is like the Antares. Antares is the name of a city. Incident. It's like the Antares incident.
24:55
Rafael Scavone: And it's like the first zombie… it's like the first zombie story in Brazil.
25:03
Rafael Scavone: It's awesome. It's like, it's a literary adaptation from a very famous writer in Brazil. His name is Eric Coverissimo.
25:11
Rafael Scavone: And this book, the, the book, the real, the written book, it's, it's what launched, like, 50 years ago, is a great key to, the dictatorship here in Brazil, and we adapted to comics this, last year.
25:29
Rafael Scavone: And I, I want to, to, to…
25:31
Rafael Scavone: to publish it in the US. And I was thinking about Pentagram.
25:35
Rafael Scavone: So, because they publish a lot of things, so…
25:37
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, no, I will not…
25:41
Rafael Scavone: Because, Lisa.
25:41
Tad Eggleston: I see it right there, and, and, like, send me a message, I… I have… Yeah, yeah.
25:48
Tad Eggleston: I have no claimed influence or anything like that, but… I, I, I…
25:56
Rafael Scavone: No, okay, but I…
25:58
Tad Eggleston: anything looks cool, I'm always willing to say, hey, I think this looks cool.
26:03
Tad Eggleston: But, yeah, no, and…
26:08
Rafael Scavone: So, but, but…
26:09
Tad Eggleston: Good historical comic.
26:10
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, well, and actually, the reason it came up with Eric yesterday is… is on their publishing schedule right now is their third book with…
26:26
Tad Eggleston: Oh, I'm drawing a blank on his name, but I'm certain I'll have it soon. Give me just a second.
26:34
Tad Eggleston: The marvelous… internet, I can do research while I'm.
26:37
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
26:40
Tad Eggleston: The, the…
26:55
Tad Eggleston: Blah blah blah.
26:58
Tad Eggleston: This is great radio, isn't it?
27:01
Rafael Scavone: It's a… it's a… it's an outer you are trying to remember? Audio, yeah, it's an audio podcast.
27:10
Tad Eggleston: Oh.
27:10
Rafael Scavone: Okay.
27:11
Tad Eggleston: Theodora's Letters, an enslaved Woman's Fight for Family and Freedom by Marcello Dassilette?
27:18
Rafael Scavone: Oh, Marcelo de Saleche, yeah, yeah. He's great, he's great, yeah. He's also a historian.
27:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah? He's also starting… Yeah, who walks?
27:27
Tad Eggleston: All three of his books that Phantographics have done have been histories. Yeah.
27:33
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, he works most of Black history, like African-Brazilian history, and he's a really cool guy, he's awesome.
27:43
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. He's very…
27:45
Rafael Scavone: He has a really unique style, art style, as well.
27:48
Tad Eggleston: Yes.
27:48
Rafael Scavone: So it was… But.
27:50
Tad Eggleston: No, I, I, I, I have, I have, I have read,
27:55
Tad Eggleston: his first two books, that Angola, Janga…
27:58
Rafael Scavone: Runaway slaves.
28:00
Tad Eggleston: And.
28:01
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
28:03
Tad Eggleston: What was the other one? Of course it's not coming up right away.
28:08
Rafael Scavone: It's, remember. But yeah, I have, I have this book here somewhere.
28:17
Rafael Scavone: Well, but, but, yeah, but he, he.
28:20
Tad Eggleston: Run for it.
28:20
Rafael Scavone: It's really good.
28:21
Tad Eggleston: The stories of slaves who fought.
28:22
Rafael Scavone: Room for it, yeah.
28:24
Tad Eggleston: Yes.
28:25
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
28:27
Tad Eggleston: But, but yeah, no, so, so, like, I, I, I, talk to me about, first, the Brazilian comic scene, because it, it, it's clearly so much…
28:38
Tad Eggleston: deeper than… like, every time I turn around, I'm learning a little bit more about it.
28:44
Tad Eggleston: You know, cause, there was… there was an, again, Phantographics did their, their anthology, what was it, Brava, I think?
28:53
Rafael Scavone: Braba, yeah, yeah, with Rafael Grandpa, yeah.
28:56
Tad Eggleston: Right.
28:58
Rafael Scavone: He's one of the organizers. Yeah, he's from my town.
29:02
Tad Eggleston: Oh, okay.
29:02
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Okay. All the Raphaels, the grandparents.
29:06
Tad Eggleston: All the hot bails.
29:07
Rafael Scavone: It's me.
29:07
Rafael Scavone: All the help files are from here. It's weird.
29:10
Tad Eggleston: So… For Rafael, we go to which town?
29:13
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. It's Porto Legger. The name is Porto Legger. It's like Hep Harbor.
29:18
Rafael Scavone: That's it. But Brazil has a really cool story of comics, because one… there's a lot of claim for the first published comic, and a lot of people say he's Brazilian, because there's a guy named Angelo de Agostini.
29:35
Rafael Scavone: He was a Brazilian back in the beginning of the 19th century, and he used to make comics. But, like, Politico won, you know, one panel, two panels… Right.
29:46
Rafael Scavone: he probably was the first comic book… comic maker in Brazil.
29:53
Tad Eggleston: And…
29:54
Rafael Scavone: We had a… we have a great tradition with political comics, especially
29:59
Rafael Scavone: dictatorship, and we also have some hits, like, real best-selling comics. I don't know if you heard about Monica's Gang?
30:09
Tad Eggleston: I don't think so.
30:10
Rafael Scavone: Monica's gang… you can research that in the internet. Monica's gang, it's a phenomenon in Brazil.
30:17
Rafael Scavone: It's from an artist named Mauricio de Souza.
30:21
Rafael Scavone: And it's a kind of, okay. It's a… it's a…
30:27
Rafael Scavone: kids comic, like, in a neighborhood, and it's really old. They're more than 50 years now.
30:33
Rafael Scavone: And it sells a lot. It sells a lot. It sells like, sometimes they made the issues, like, sell millions.
30:41
Rafael Scavone: books. There are some years it's sold more than Batman, you know? It's… yeah…
30:47
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I believe it.
30:48
Rafael Scavone: It's a phenomenal. I believe it.
30:50
Tad Eggleston: I mean.
30:52
Rafael Scavone: It's different.
30:52
Tad Eggleston: has, it has that, that, just a glance, I'm, I'm like, it's reminding me of…
30:59
Rafael Scavone: Mauricio Yosoza, he's from Japanese accents, so his style is a bit of Japanese, you know, more Astro Boy, more of.
31:10
Tad Eggleston: Astroy Souls got a little bit of Astro Boy, and a little bit of, like, Peanuts Dennis the Menace.
31:16
Rafael Scavone: You put those things…
31:16
Tad Eggleston: together, and yeah, that's gonna sell. As long as it's not dumb. All it has to… all it has to be is, like, mildly intelligent and funny, and that's gonna sell.
31:28
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it sells a lot, it's a phenomenon in Brazil.
31:31
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
31:32
Rafael Scavone: the guy, the guy, the guy now is really old, most… it's also his… I think he has 19-something, almost 100 years old, and… but he… he's still alive, and he… and his books are… sell a lot, so… he… he works with,
31:49
Rafael Scavone: themed, you know, it's like, there's a lot of comics, like, graphic novels, it's not just the Monica's gang, but it's huge. It's huge. There are movies, there are a lot of things. And they're published in the US, they are published in Europe. In Japan as well, they're publishing in Japan.
32:05
Tad Eggleston: Right.
32:05
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
32:06
Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, I have such a appreciation for the fact that Europe and Japan will publish anything good. It's only in the U.S. that we seem to not like to have to translate things.
32:22
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, but it's getting better now.
32:24
Tad Eggleston: Getting much better.
32:25
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
32:26
Tad Eggleston: I'm getting much better, but…
32:28
Rafael Scavone: young guys.
32:29
Tad Eggleston: I know the market.
32:30
Rafael Scavone: the Japanese…
32:31
Tad Eggleston: It was one of the jokes that I was making with Eric yesterday, and one of the reasons that I love Fanographics is, like.
32:38
Tad Eggleston: the United States and Great Britain, so, like, the two…
32:43
Tad Eggleston: English-speaking countries have also historically been the most
32:50
Tad Eggleston: if it's not ours, it can't possibly be important cultures in the world. So, like, so, like, English stuff is translated into everything, but finding good literature or good comics from other languages is much harder
33:08
Tad Eggleston: for me, then it… like, again, like, if you live in… and again, you know, I view this as a cultural flaw on our part, not like, oh, we've got such great culture. I mean, there are people who will say that. We have such great culture, why would we translate from French? They should just read Shakespeare.
33:29
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
33:31
Tad Eggleston: get me wrong, Shakespeare's great, but so is Proust.
33:35
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is, it is great.
33:38
Tad Eggleston: You know, so yeah, no, that's… that's… Fascinating.
33:45
Rafael Scavone: It, you, you don't have the, you don't have the, the, the, the…
33:49
Rafael Scavone: Habits to… to… to watch movies with subtitles, though. Yeah.
33:54
Tad Eggleston: I do some.
33:55
Rafael Scavone: Oh, that's great.
33:56
Tad Eggleston: I mean, my biggest problem is that I don't really have the habit to watch movies, period.
34:03
Tad Eggleston: I have such a tendency to listen to the movie while reading a comic.
34:09
Rafael Scavone: So…
34:10
Tad Eggleston: if I have to read the movie while I'm watching the movie, and it means I can't read a.
34:16
Rafael Scavone: Wait, wait, you were reading a comic and watching and listen to movie? At the same time?
34:21
Tad Eggleston: Yes, often.
34:22
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
34:23
Tad Eggleston: How are you doing?
34:24
Rafael Scavone: do that.
34:24
Rafael Scavone: Move to task, man!
34:27
Tad Eggleston: A little bit, and a little bit, there just aren't that many movies that actually
34:34
Tad Eggleston: Steal my attention that way.
34:36
Rafael Scavone: Oh, okay.
34:37
Tad Eggleston: Makes sense.
34:38
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it makes, yeah.
34:40
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean, I have less trouble… I have less trouble stopping and reading if it… like, we did Rashomon this week. It was… it was my pick. I was in a Rashomon movie. I have no… I have no problem stopping and reading subtitles for Rashomon.
34:55
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
34:56
Rafael Scavone: This is the thing, because in Brazil…
34:58
Tad Eggleston: a problem.
34:59
Tad Eggleston: you know, there was zero problem stopping and reading subtitles for Aguirre, because I, like…
35:05
Tad Eggleston: I mean, the biggest problem reading the subtitles was sometimes I was just so lost in…
35:10
Tad Eggleston: In the visuals, period.
35:12
Tad Eggleston: Like, oh yeah, I gotta read the words, too.
35:15
Tad Eggleston: But I also…
35:16
Rafael Scavone: Because it was really, really, really common to have subtitles, because you often doesn't have the translation.
35:25
Tad Eggleston: Right.
35:25
Rafael Scavone: So, I grew up reading subtitles, so… Right. Reading, reading, reading subtitles, so it's really…
35:32
Rafael Scavone: Really common for us. No, now we have more to… yeah, I get used to that. Yeah.
35:37
Tad Eggleston: No, my grandma, went to a lot of operas, so I think, I think.
35:42
Rafael Scavone: She does.
35:43
Tad Eggleston: so used to… The subtitles on stage that she had no.
35:48
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
35:49
Tad Eggleston: And I wish I did more opera, because I love opera.
35:53
Tad Eggleston: But we're go…
35:54
Rafael Scavone: We're just going…
35:55
Tad Eggleston: off on… we're just going off on really random subject.
35:59
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it's okay, it's okay, it's nice. Love it.
36:04
Rafael Scavone: So, have you… there's a movie, there's a movie I watched, two days ago, no? Yeah, it's, Begonia? Begonia?
36:13
Tad Eggleston: Begonia?
36:15
Rafael Scavone: begonia.
36:17
Rafael Scavone: Then move it from… The Begonia, it's a movie with, Emma… Emma Watts.
36:26
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I don't think I've seen this, no.
36:28
Rafael Scavone: Oh, this movie's great!
36:33
Rafael Scavone: Take a look, you'll like it, it's cool.
36:36
Rafael Scavone: It's cool.
36:37
Tad Eggleston: Is it…
36:37
Rafael Scavone: It's weird.
36:39
Rafael Scavone: Begonia, begonia.
36:44
Rafael Scavone: It's quite safe.
36:44
Tad Eggleston: It's the same guy that… it's the more recent movie from the… I saw Poor Things recently.
36:51
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, yeah.
36:52
Tad Eggleston: Same direction.
36:54
Rafael Scavone: Okay. Same director, yeah.
36:55
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, he's… I think he's Greek.
36:58
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
36:58
Rafael Scavone: It's Greek, yeah.
37:00
Tad Eggleston: He, he…
37:00
Rafael Scavone: It's really good.
37:01
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I'm gonna have to… I mean, that was already kind of on my list, because…
37:07
Tad Eggleston: I still haven't fully decided what I think a poor thing… Poor Things, I had so many…
37:14
Rafael Scavone: So many things I liked, and so many things that I… was uncomfortable with that I had to go read the book. Yeah.
37:21
Tad Eggleston: And.
37:22
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, the director…
37:23
Tad Eggleston: I don't know, and I don't know if reading the book made it…
37:27
Tad Eggleston: more or less uncomfortable, or made me like it more or less, it still got me thinking about it.
37:33
Rafael Scavone: Really? I didn't read the book, it's a cool book.
37:36
Tad Eggleston: It is a cool book, but some of the things that were different, it's like, I don't know if this makes it better or worse.
37:44
Tad Eggleston: Because, like, the biggest, the biggest, rightful…
37:49
Tad Eggleston: like, easy knock on Poor Things is like, okay, yeah, but she's essentially 5, and… and…
37:58
Rafael Scavone: It's a French thing.
38:00
Tad Eggleston: What?
38:02
Rafael Scavone: Fine.
38:03
Rafael Scavone: It is Frankenstein, but… but still… It is Frankenstein, yeah.
38:06
Tad Eggleston: But still.
38:07
Rafael Scavone: From a female perspective.
38:09
Tad Eggleston: He's essentially 5 years old, and Mark Ruffalo's using her as…
38:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's…
38:17
Rafael Scavone: It's a hack.
38:17
Tad Eggleston: So…
38:18
Rafael Scavone: movie, but… Yeah.
38:20
Tad Eggleston: But, and, and, like, in the book, it…
38:26
Tad Eggleston: Well, I'm not really spoiling anything, because A, we're a comics podcast, so we're a comics podcast, so I don't care if I spoil a 25.
38:35
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I don't mind, I don't mind the spoiler.
38:37
Tad Eggleston: Right. Well, yeah, if you, if you, if you minded the spoilers, but I meant for the audience, I don't care, it's too old.
38:43
Rafael Scavone: But the same approach.
38:45
Tad Eggleston: No, well, with the book, very similar approach, except that… Like, the main…
38:53
Tad Eggleston: Part of the book, and most of what got filmed, is the… the…
38:57
Tad Eggleston: The… the novel from… or the story from her… her husband's point of view.
39:04
Rafael Scavone: Like, the final husband.
39:07
Tad Eggleston: But then there's an addendum on that, which is her writing after he died.
39:13
Tad Eggleston: and essentially just, like, blasting it all. She's, you know, she was the doctor, she was the, like…
39:21
Tad Eggleston: All of this is fantasy. Is this really what he wanted our life to be?
39:27
Tad Eggleston: Oh. Wow. You know, essentially making him out to be, like.
39:33
Tad Eggleston: only a little bit more than a bum, kind of a lovable bum, but like…
39:38
Tad Eggleston: Kind of disappointed in him, because it's like, oh, he could have been a doctor, but as soon as we had money, he just decided to putz around and be rich.
39:49
Rafael Scavone: Oh, I went to read it now.
39:52
Tad Eggleston: It's… it's good, but it, it, like…
39:55
Tad Eggleston: Now I have this whole other set of questions.
39:59
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I really like it when I finish reading a book or watch a movie, and I kept thinking and, you know, chewing that. This, for me, is a thing that defines if it's good or not.
40:13
Tad Eggleston: And that's definitely the biggest thing that The Poor Things definitely did for me, is, like, we watched it, like, a month ago. First of all, I wound up immediately…
40:25
Tad Eggleston: writing to a friend of mine that I knew would have
40:29
Tad Eggleston: A, it seemed like her sort of thing. B, I knew that she was gonna have a much more feminist perspective, and, like.
40:36
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
40:37
Tad Eggleston: it's definitely the type of thing that's like, okay, I'm not saying I'm not allowed to have an opinion, but before I dig in too deep on my opinion, I want to go, I'm an affluent white male, and let's hear from.
40:51
Rafael Scavone: Somebody else. Yeah. And she like it?
40:56
Tad Eggleston: She… she was the one that immediately went, you know, this part was icky, but I kind of also see what you're talking about, maybe I'll have to revisit it, I haven't read the book, and we haven't… we haven't written again, like, because I wanted to read the book, and I've been chewing on it, so, like, I'll probably write again at some point in the not-so-distant future, because I've, like.
41:16
Tad Eggleston: I might watch the movie again, you know, because I watched the movie once and decided, okay, I gotta read the book before I watch it again, because I wanted to… and actually, I was both reading and listening to the book, so I finished listening to the book, and I want to finish actually reading the book.
41:32
Rafael Scavone: Oh, God.
41:33
Tad Eggleston: Because I, you know, I'm really kinda… again, it's…
41:38
Tad Eggleston: I think overall it's brilliant, and I think overall I'm okay with the fact that it was written by an old white man.
41:46
Tad Eggleston: But it certainly would be easier to say that it was brilliant if it was written by
41:52
Tad Eggleston: Anybody but an old white man.
41:55
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
41:57
Tad Eggleston: Does that make sense?
41:59
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, this, yeah, this, yeah.
42:01
Tad Eggleston: just because intent and experience matters. I actually…
42:05
Tad Eggleston: A great conversation I had with a friend of mine once, like, about why…
42:11
Tad Eggleston: You know, he's like, every time you talk about, appropriation, though, like.
42:18
Tad Eggleston: turn it around and go, oh, well, so… but you can write a white male character, and I can't write… and they're like, yeah, cause… cause, see, I had to figure out how white males work to survive. You didn't have to figure out how black males work to survive.
42:36
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, it was part of my survival to figure out… Yeah.
42:44
Tad Eggleston: It's a requirement!
42:46
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
42:47
Tad Eggleston: That's kind of the… that right there is the privilege!
42:52
Rafael Scavone: Have, have you, have you, have you watched, one battle after another?
42:59
Tad Eggleston: It's on my list. I haven't watched it.
43:01
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah.
43:02
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, there's a really interesting theory about that. When you watch that, we can talk, because…
43:09
Tad Eggleston: I'll send you an email.
43:10
Rafael Scavone: about politics, yeah. It's interesting, yeah. There's something about Obama there. You probably will figure out, yeah. Keep it in mind when…
43:20
Tad Eggleston: What's that?
43:21
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean, U.S. politics, even… I mean, nobody who listens to this show doesn't know I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, but…
43:32
Tad Eggleston: But… but even… even among my favorite… U.S. politicians, like…
43:37
Tad Eggleston: I mean, one of the reasons that, like.
43:44
Tad Eggleston: it's so hard to be an American right now, is like…
43:49
Tad Eggleston: Obama and Biden have done some great things, but they also didn't shut down Guantanamo. They also.
43:57
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
43:57
Tad Eggleston: Shut down the drone programs.
44:00
Tad Eggleston: they left these things in place that are now… I mean, A, they kept using these things.
44:07
Tad Eggleston: Hopefully?
44:08
Tad Eggleston: More thoughtfully than their predecessors and their successors.
44:14
Tad Eggleston: But… But, like, there are certain… have you seen Eye in the Sky?
44:23
Rafael Scavone: Eye in the sky… It's another one we've watched.
44:28
Tad Eggleston: It's another one we watched recently. It's got.
44:31
Rafael Scavone: Anyone?
44:32
Tad Eggleston: 2015, actually, so, so it's, it's, it's, it's older. It's, it's Helen Mirren and Alan Rickman.
44:41
Rafael Scavone: I don't think so. For me, just came, that, that band, Alan Parcels, you know?
44:49
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
44:50
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, this is the… I understand!
44:52
Tad Eggleston: So, essentially, the entire movie is about one drone strike.
44:57
Tad Eggleston: And, like, all of the deliberation that goes into it, from the legal side, from the tactical side, you know, everything. And, like, the biggest thing that I came away from is, oh my god, drone strikes are terrorism.
45:14
Tad Eggleston: They're terrors.
45:14
Rafael Scavone: Damn.
45:15
Tad Eggleston: They just are.
45:16
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
45:17
Tad Eggleston: There isn't, like, by the end of the movie, I, you know, and it wasn't even what everybody, you know, because it was another one we watched as a family, it wasn't what everybody came away with, but what I came away with is there is no acceptable drone shrink.
45:30
Tad Eggleston: That's what I've been convinced. There is no acceptable drone strike.
45:34
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
45:36
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
45:37
Rafael Scavone: Actually, international law was something so messy by now.
45:43
Tad Eggleston: Right.
45:43
Rafael Scavone: Which… Everything's… what's going on, so, yeah.
45:48
Rafael Scavone: There's a movie about drone strikes, but I think it was with Ethan Hong?
45:53
Rafael Scavone: That one, he was, like, the pilot.
45:56
Rafael Scavone: And in all the movies, like in Thai, in the, in the, in the…
46:01
Rafael Scavone: in the cockpit of a… you know, like, the cockpit is staying in the ground, when the drone pilot… and there's… I don't… I don't know if this is this movie, because all the things, like, about when I… when I… he had to… he's the pilot, and there's a…
46:17
Rafael Scavone: His… his colleague is, like, the woman's… she's like the… the artillery. She's, like, the one to pull the trigger, and they had to make a decision.
46:27
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I mean, those, those two peop… I mean…
46:29
Rafael Scavone: Those two people in the same place, one's the pilot, the other…
46:33
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, in Eye in the Sky, you had those two people, but you also had, like, their colonel, you had the person who had to figure out what the collateral damage was.
46:42
Rafael Scavone: There's a child.
46:44
Tad Eggleston: Yes!
46:44
Rafael Scavone: I saw this movie, I saw the movie. Okay.
46:46
Tad Eggleston: Yes!
46:47
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, so the…
46:47
Tad Eggleston: Oh!
46:48
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
46:49
Tad Eggleston: Oh!
46:49
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, yeah.
46:50
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.
46:53
Rafael Scavone: Decision, yeah? Yeah.
46:54
Tad Eggleston: Oh…
46:55
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, it's great.
46:58
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah.
47:01
Tad Eggleston: But yeah, no, it… but again, like, and I wasn't a fan of them before.
47:08
Tad Eggleston: But, like, having watched it, I'm like, oh…
47:11
Tad Eggleston: No, there's… there's no such thing as a… as a…
47:15
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
47:16
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, and Obama was… was… he used a lot of drones.
47:20
Tad Eggleston: He did.
47:21
Rafael Scavone: He did. Yeah. And like…
47:24
Tad Eggleston: I mean, one of the things that, that, that…
47:27
Tad Eggleston: A number of his staffers have their own media organization.
47:34
Tad Eggleston: Now.
47:35
Tad Eggleston: And one of the things that I love is when stuff like this comes up.
47:42
Tad Eggleston: particularly the ones that were involved in national security, etc, will be the first ones to say, look, I know that you're gonna jump into the… in the comments about… about…
47:54
Tad Eggleston: Obama and drones, and you have every right to. Mistakes were made. You know, some of us were telling him that they were being made at the time. Some of us weren't, but can see it now.
48:07
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
48:08
Tad Eggleston: You know, no, our hands are not clean.
48:13
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
48:13
Rafael Scavone: It's, it's so…
48:15
Tad Eggleston: I think that that's so rare in global politics, period, to have anybody willing to say, I made a mistake.
48:24
Tad Eggleston: that…
48:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
48:26
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
48:26
Tad Eggleston: It's just so much more credence to their thoughtfulness.
48:31
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
48:32
Rafael Scavone: There's a… I don't know if you know a writer named Jonathan Katz?
48:38
Tad Eggleston: Yes!
48:39
Rafael Scavone: Have you read Gangsters of Capitalism?
48:42
Tad Eggleston: I have. I have. And I also, I also, I also subscribe to Jonathan's newsletter.
48:49
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, me too. You see the racket, yeah.
48:51
Tad Eggleston: do you know, and this is, this is along the same, same lines, do you know Spencer Ackerman?
49:00
Rafael Scavone: No, no.
49:02
Tad Eggleston: Spencer Ackerman.
49:05
Rafael Scavone: interacting.
49:06
Tad Eggleston: He does.
49:09
Rafael Scavone: Ackerman. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
49:13
Tad Eggleston: his…
49:13
Rafael Scavone: It's huge. But I… Spencer, I can…
49:16
Tad Eggleston: his… his, his newsletter is Forever Wars.
49:22
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, yeah, no, I don't remember that.
49:24
Tad Eggleston: And his…
49:24
Rafael Scavone: I didn't associate the name.
49:26
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, and his, his, his book was, War on Terror, Yeah.
49:34
Rafael Scavone: I didn't read the book, but I… Oh, no, the book is…
49:38
Tad Eggleston: I mean, Forever Wars is outstanding, and must-read, so is War on Terror, but this is where we pull it back to comics. Spencer also, and these are must-read, wrote
49:55
Tad Eggleston: Waller vs. Wildstorm at DC.
49:58
Rafael Scavone: Oh, awesome.
50:00
Tad Eggleston: and 10 issues of Iron Man, at Marvel, Including during the Doom War, Where… where he very… very much…
50:13
Tad Eggleston: Based a lot of… things on… Reporting that he's done.
50:23
Tad Eggleston: He, he…
50:24
Tad Eggleston: he was on the team at the Guardian that handled the Snowden papers, so he's got a Pulitzer Prize.
50:32
Tad Eggleston: He… he… Yeah, he… He… he's covered some shit.
50:41
Rafael Scavone: Wow. Yeah.
50:43
Tad Eggleston: For that matter, his next book is gonna be required reading, but not… not easy reading.
50:51
Rafael Scavone: It's an outside driver.
50:53
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, his next book is going to be,
50:58
Tad Eggleston: Oh, God, what's it called? I'll just pull up his most recent newsletter, it'll say down at the bottom.
51:05
Tad Eggleston: oh, his most recent newsletter is today, so I'll have something to read soon.
51:13
Tad Eggleston: The torture and Deliverance of Majeed Khan, who was…
51:18
Rafael Scavone: Mmm.
51:19
Tad Eggleston: in Guantanamo for… Yeah. 10 or 15 years.
51:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
51:25
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, the last time he was on 22 Panels, he described
51:31
Tad Eggleston: writing Tony Stark and… and his essential… essentially deal with the devil in terms of, like, how… how to…
51:41
Tad Eggleston: oppose doom, and one world under doom, the whole…
51:47
Tad Eggleston: as his relaxing time, when he took time off from writing the Torture and Deliverance. And he was kind of sad that he didn't have a comic to write anymore to get away from the harrowing writing.
52:04
Rafael Scavone: It's an interesting thing, I think Tom King was the former CAA agent.
52:09
Tad Eggleston: Tom King was in the CIA.
52:11
Rafael Scavone: be fine.
52:13
Rafael Scavone: Look at Porsche.
52:14
Tad Eggleston: Tom King was in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
52:19
Tad Eggleston: In fact, if you've ever read his Sheriff of Babylon…
52:23
Rafael Scavone: Yay.
52:23
Tad Eggleston: There's a lot of auto bio there.
52:27
Tad Eggleston: For that matter,
52:30
Tad Eggleston: Tom will be the first one to admit that even his superhero comics are a lot of him working through his own mental health stuff.
52:37
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
52:37
Tad Eggleston: we have… I'm friends with a group called Psychocomicology, they actually use comics in their psychology practice.
52:44
Tad Eggleston: And while we're on hiatus right now, because they bought a comic shop, and as it turns out, that takes a lot of work.
52:51
Tad Eggleston: We've been reading through… Tom King's work in order.
52:58
Tad Eggleston: And discussing it from a psychological perspective.
53:01
Rafael Scavone: That's awesome!
53:03
Tad Eggleston: Which, when I told him this the last time I saw him, he's like, that sounds fantastic, I hope you don't mind if I never, ever listen.
53:11
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Safer for him to do that.
53:18
Tad Eggleston: Because, yeah, it's… you know, I think comics is a great… I mean, comics is the best medium, period.
53:26
Rafael Scavone: Not because my work… So… So many possibilities.
53:33
Rafael Scavone: With so little, so… Yeah.
53:38
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. But… but, like, because it's the best medium period, it's… it's that much…
53:46
Tad Eggleston: More of a great medium in terms of… Really, looking at… Different levels of…
53:58
Tad Eggleston: a story, you know, bringing in the history, bringing in the psychological side, and this is… this is where I'll bring it back to your book. I can't speak as much with the new one, because we're only an issue in, so it's kind of a teaser, but in the first Hailstone.
54:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
54:15
Tad Eggleston: I really appreciated how…
54:21
Tad Eggleston: you know, I mean, it was a horror story, and primarily, we're trying to figure out, okay.
54:27
Tad Eggleston: these people are getting lost, etc. But, like, kind of the underlying theme is, oh, This sheriff lost somebody.
54:38
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. You know, they're… they're acting from this point of grief, from this point of trauma.
54:46
Tad Eggleston: as well as having the history of, oh, those savage Indians, and oh, you know, sure, you're starving to death, but the war effort, you know.
54:58
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
54:58
Tad Eggleston: I mean, all of those layers, all in one story, is something that's just…
55:03
Tad Eggleston: When a movie tries to do that.
55:07
Tad Eggleston: People will complain that not enough
55:11
Tad Eggleston: That things aren't… aren't followed through on enough, that… that we don't get…
55:16
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
55:17
Tad Eggleston: oh, you teased this, but we don't really get to learn about it. Oh, you teased that, but…
55:24
Tad Eggleston: In a novel, you can kind of do it, but you can't…
55:30
Tad Eggleston: There's something about having the visual element that…
55:34
Rafael Scavone: That's the thing, I think you…
55:36
Tad Eggleston: Particularly, emotion comes through… You know, empathy works better with some level of visuals.
55:46
Tad Eggleston: You know, for that matter, in the… in the… funny… Funny Creek. Yeah.
55:55
Tad Eggleston: You know, I mean, I'm certain that some people would complain that they figured out that something happened to the kid early on. It's kind of telegraphed. But, you know, I mean, I've always hated that complaint to begin with, because not everything should need to be a surprise to be good.
56:15
Rafael Scavone: Yeah?
56:15
Tad Eggleston: And I thought it was brilliantly laid out as, oh…
56:21
Tad Eggleston: were getting… and where I got, you know, at the risk of ruining it a little bit for some people listening, where I was killed was when it turned out that she waited for him.
56:32
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
56:33
Tad Eggleston: When it turned out that she didn't, you know, after treating him so badly, and leading him to that…
56:43
Tad Eggleston: tragic… happening, rather than…
56:51
Tad Eggleston: going to the costume contest with the other guy, like she told him that she was going to do, she continued waiting on the bench for him, which just made it that much more tragic. That, like, for whatever reason, she'd felt the need to behave this way, and then…
57:09
Tad Eggleston: Even before she knew there was reason to regret it, regret it, she was regretting it.
57:18
Rafael Scavone: Creek is a very controversial book.
57:21
Rafael Scavone: People… there are people who…
57:24
Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, it… it's… Like, if you go into it thinking it's a kid's book, I mean.
57:30
Rafael Scavone: I could see.
57:32
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I could see somebody, like, oh, I think that this is… I'm gonna read this with my… oh, wait a minute, I was reading this with my 7-year-old Raphael.
57:44
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
57:44
Tad Eggleston: I mean, it's kind of like, I still haven't forgiven George Lucas for… for Revenge of the Sith.
57:51
Tad Eggleston: I know a lot of people think it's the best of the prequel trilogy, and maybe it is, but my thing is…
58:02
Tad Eggleston: My son was 5 when it came out.
58:06
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
58:06
Tad Eggleston: And he loved…
58:10
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
58:10
Tad Eggleston: Jar Jar, and Young Anakin, and Phantom Menace. He loved…
58:19
Tad Eggleston: Attack of the Clones. And I didn't want him to watch Revenge of the Sith.
58:26
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. It's like… it's like, you took the two most childlike Star Wars movies.
58:34
Tad Eggleston: And you follow it, with the first PG-13 Star Wars movie.
58:42
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. And, like, a hard PG-13. Not a, like, borderline PG-13.
58:48
Tad Eggleston: You see Anakin burning.
58:53
Tad Eggleston: It's like the only gore in all of Star Wars. It belonged in Indiana Jones. You know how there's a scene in every Indiana Jones movies where you have to cover your eyes?
59:04
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
59:05
Tad Eggleston: that scene!
59:07
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
59:08
Rafael Scavone: But, you know,
59:12
Rafael Scavone: There's a dead sad about the vehicle. This is the key. And one other thing is, it's about the…
59:21
Rafael Scavone: you are.
59:23
Rafael Scavone: partner at Adventure. Because, of course, English.
59:28
Rafael Scavone: Because it… Ready?
59:31
Rafael Scavone: It's, it's active. You, you, you are not… patient.
59:38
Rafael Scavone: The magic of comics is… between us.
59:42
Tad Eggleston: Right.
59:43
Rafael Scavone: the thing.
59:44
Rafael Scavone: So you… Super cool meetings.
59:52
Rafael Scavone: We've changed… X.
59:55
Rafael Scavone: Nope.
59:56
Rafael Scavone: sont defense.
59:58
Rafael Scavone: This is the… Comics for me.
1:00:00
Rafael Scavone: So, I… oh my… for example, the first vulnerable
1:00:09
Rafael Scavone: overall is a… for the, the UX, like, a complex.
1:00:15
Rafael Scavone: That was built in the war.
1:00:19
Rafael Scavone: the West… the business…
1:00:22
Rafael Scavone: weapons in the US. Right. I did a big historic theory, but all that factory stuff, all that thing, you know, the gore, it…
1:00:33
Rafael Scavone: It's in the U.S. industry.
1:00:36
Rafael Scavone: So, to do that, because some readers will get it, some don't, but it works great.
1:00:44
Rafael Scavone: This, this, this is the magic thing.
1:00:47
Rafael Scavone: You can… can… You know? And some people…
1:00:51
Rafael Scavone: In some one, but that's great.
1:00:54
Rafael Scavone: And this is the thing, because you can re-read it, you get different things. Like, you know, as we said before, it's like, it's stuck in your mind, why that? It doesn't make sense, but if you read it, you make sense, or maybe you want, you know?
1:01:12
Tad Eggleston: No, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that's… Comics are… are… good comics, because…
1:01:21
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah. Like every medium.
1:01:24
Tad Eggleston: not…
1:01:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, there's…
1:01:25
Tad Eggleston: Parts are equal, but good comics, one of the things that makes them, to me, greater than all other storytelling mediums is that
1:01:37
Tad Eggleston: they're infinitely re-readable. You never reach a point.
1:01:40
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:01:41
Tad Eggleston: I'm not.
1:01:41
Rafael Scavone: Yes.
1:01:41
Tad Eggleston: see another layer.
1:01:43
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:01:45
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I agree, I agree.
1:01:47
Tad Eggleston: Eventually, you start seeing layers that even the creators didn't see. But then you say them, I mean, the number…
1:01:53
Rafael Scavone: It happens a lot.
1:01:53
Tad Eggleston: Sometimes, the number of times I've said to a creator, like, when you did this, and they're like, I had no idea that I'd done that, but now that I see it, I can't unsee it.
1:02:03
Rafael Scavone: It happens a lot. One of the things I think it's so hard when we're writing a pitch for a publisher. Usually, you have to fit an elevator pitch, you know, like that short pitch, like one sentence or two sentences.
1:02:20
Tad Eggleston: Right.
1:02:21
Rafael Scavone: line explained in the book.
1:02:25
Rafael Scavone: And sometimes, most of the times, the reader gets it much better than you.
1:02:32
Rafael Scavone: After the book is read, the reader gets it all. I can, I can, I can,
1:02:39
Rafael Scavone: fit this book in one line much better than me, you know? Right. This is the thing, I would love to have a time machine to go in the future, and get a… read that, and give me an elevator pitch, you know?
1:02:55
Tad Eggleston: Because what I'll often, what I'll often,
1:02:59
Tad Eggleston: often ask people to do with their book is, give me the front counter pitch. You're working the comic shop, you're selling your book, how do you do it? And the number… number of creators that, like, stumble over how to do that is just insane.
1:03:11
Rafael Scavone: partners.
1:03:12
Tad Eggleston: It's really hard. Yeah. Well, it's not an easy thing to do. I mean, I've worked…
1:03:16
Rafael Scavone: We shop.
1:03:17
Tad Eggleston: and, like… I develop pitches for the comics that I love, because, like… Yeah.
1:03:23
Tad Eggleston: to… I mean, do you read Saga?
1:03:28
Rafael Scavone: Saga, yeah, yeah, the first films, yeah, yeah.
1:03:31
Tad Eggleston: Okay, so, so, I mean, yeah, but how do you… how… I mean, I can do it, because I spent a long time figuring out
1:03:40
Tad Eggleston: hundreds of copies of Saga, but, like, to manage, you know, to manage to distill that into, okay, it's a Romeo and Juliet love story, against the backdrop of intergalactic civil war, except that it's not really that at all, it's more a family coming-of-age story, and…
1:03:59
Tad Eggleston: With weird aliens, and bounty hunters, and… and… and… A-phones!
1:04:06
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
1:04:07
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:04:08
Rafael Scavone: It's…
1:04:09
Tad Eggleston: It's.
1:04:10
Rafael Scavone: it's hard. There's a thing, when you usually are writing something, when you finish that, when you finish writing, sometimes when the comics are ready.
1:04:22
Rafael Scavone: you really think, this book is about death, you know? Right. Because sometimes you don't even know what this book's about.
1:04:29
Rafael Scavone: Because I think you are so, so into that.
1:04:33
Rafael Scavone: You know, think about the tales and characters and lines, and you are not taking the… you are not… you don't have the eye in the sky, you know, as a… you don't have the… to see the big picture. But when it's ready, you can… you can, it's about that. And the readers get it much better than us.
1:04:53
Rafael Scavone: No doubt.
1:04:55
Tad Eggleston: I mean, hopefully. Hopefully.
1:04:57
Tad Eggleston: Doing our jobs properly.
1:05:00
Tad Eggleston: Alright.
1:05:02
Tad Eggleston: We're starting to run up on… I can kind of hear my grandkids getting excited in the background, so we're gonna… we're gonna get to the… there are two questions that I'd like to close with.
1:05:12
Rafael Scavone: Shit.
1:05:13
Tad Eggleston: The… the first is, I…
1:05:19
Tad Eggleston: I have been doing this podcast for… going on 5 years now.
1:05:24
Rafael Scavone: Ow.
1:05:25
Tad Eggleston: And, and I'm…
1:05:28
Tad Eggleston: blown away every day at just how different my life has become. How many… how many surreal conversations and experiences I get to have because I just do a podcast in comics. You know, the number of times that I get to
1:05:44
Tad Eggleston: to do something that if you told me when I was 15, hey, you're gonna do this when you're 45, or even if you told me when I was 35, hey, this is gonna be part of your life 10 years from now, I would have gone.
1:05:56
Tad Eggleston: Fuck you, you're insane.
1:05:59
Rafael Scavone: No way.
1:06:01
Tad Eggleston: But, I've found that, like, That's…
1:06:07
Tad Eggleston: common for people in comics. All of us have that surreal experience where it's like, somehow we…
1:06:16
Tad Eggleston: we have these things, these… that happen, or multiple things that happen, that it's like, oh my god, how did I get to live this life?
1:06:24
Tad Eggleston: So I've started asking people, share one of your crazy.
1:06:29
Tad Eggleston: Things that you got to do…
1:06:31
Tad Eggleston: Because you work in comics, you know, whether it's meeting somebody, or a conversation, or…
1:06:38
Tad Eggleston: Or seeing something come to life, whatever.
1:06:41
Tad Eggleston: But, but something that, like.
1:06:43
Tad Eggleston: You just, you still kind of pinch yourself to go, oh my god, that happened.
1:06:48
Rafael Scavone: Oh, well, one thinks…
1:06:52
Rafael Scavone: I had… sometimes I had to… it's a really, really small thing, but sometimes I… and to research things on the internet, I really…
1:07:01
Rafael Scavone: need an anonymous computer, because, you know, something like beheading people, and something weird, you know? Right. I never, never thought, I need to research that. And I had, I had a…
1:07:17
Rafael Scavone: cool opportunities to meet people, and to work with people I always admired, you know? I had the opportunity to work with Hoger Cruz, I don't know if you know the artist. Yeah, I grew up.
1:07:31
Tad Eggleston: I mean, I haven't… I haven't… Is that power occurs, but… Oh.
1:07:35
Rafael Scavone: Jajir Cruso, he's Brazilian. He, he, he, he…
1:07:39
Rafael Scavone: he used to draw, he won… he was one of the first Brazilians to… to draw, X-Men.
1:07:48
Rafael Scavone: Back in the 90s, so I grew up reading that, his books, and I had the opportunity to work with him in a book called Red Tag. It's come out of Comixology. It's set in Brazil, you may like.
1:08:01
Tad Eggleston: Okay. No, I haven't.
1:08:02
Rafael Scavone: Red tank.
1:08:03
Tad Eggleston: I have, I have it, I have it loaded on my… I have it loaded on my…
1:08:08
Rafael Scavone: I give it a read. It's a cool thriller, political thriller.
1:08:11
Tad Eggleston: I was working on getting to it, but, you know, I also played with my grandkids this morning, you know?
1:08:17
Rafael Scavone: Oh, yeah, yeah, no.
1:08:19
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, first things first. Hi! And I had the opportunity to work with Hafe. I always admire his work, and I met so many cool people. I think one of the cool things about comics, usually the creators are so
1:08:35
Rafael Scavone: cool people, you know? They agree, they, they…
1:08:39
Tad Eggleston: No.
1:08:39
Rafael Scavone: So did.
1:08:40
Tad Eggleston: I, I am I mean, I have.
1:08:42
Rafael Scavone: I think I…
1:08:42
Tad Eggleston: I mean, obviously, we've had a handful of bad actors, particularly in recent years, we've heard about.
1:08:47
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:08:48
Tad Eggleston: But, I have a theory on why there are so many good people, like, genuinely just…
1:08:54
Tad Eggleston: Kind people in comics, and it's because You either make comics as a team.
1:09:02
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. With not enough money to go around, which means that if you don't enjoy working together, you won't do it again.
1:09:12
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:09:12
Tad Eggleston: There's almost nobody in comics that, like, makes enough money to have people be.
1:09:19
Rafael Scavone: willing.
1:09:19
Tad Eggleston: To work with them if they're a jerk.
1:09:22
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:09:24
Tad Eggleston: Or, if you're an independent cartoonist, you generally have to do a lot of hand-selling of your comics.
1:09:31
Tad Eggleston: Whether it's at cons, or to the comic shops, or whatnot. So again, like, Actually being kind
1:09:39
Tad Eggleston: Is somewhat necessary to succeed.
1:09:43
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my theory. I agree. Yeah, I agree. I met so many… I met Frank quietly, he's so, so nice, he's great. I've heard good things.
1:09:53
Tad Eggleston: I haven't met him yet.
1:09:54
Rafael Scavone: Oh, he's amazing. And Mark Miller, he's great, he's so fun. Yeah, he's fun, he's a funny guy. And I met Grant Morrison, and…
1:10:06
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, I met… I, I, I went to, I went to a masterclass… DC,
1:10:11
Rafael Scavone: to this economics masterclass for Writing.
1:10:14
Tad Eggleston: Okay.
1:10:15
Rafael Scavone: in 2018, in New York, and he was one of the… one of the teachers was so cool, and…
1:10:22
Rafael Scavone: But Neil Adams still the show, because he's… he used to be… he was a funny guy.
1:10:30
Tad Eggleston: K… Neil Adams?
1:10:32
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, because he was the one. But he was funny.
1:10:36
Tad Eggleston: I,
1:10:36
Rafael Scavone: He was a funny guy.
1:10:37
Tad Eggleston: I don't mean that in any negative way. He stole the show… No, no, yeah.
1:10:44
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, his new autumn. Yeah, yeah.
1:10:46
Rafael Scavone: But that's a cool thing. I think the cool thing about comics is people who work with comics are so nice, and, you know, I think the readers can get it, too, you know?
1:10:57
Rafael Scavone: So, it takes a lot of work to do that, so… I think… I think different from a movie… I… I… I don't mean that movies are easy to… to make, but usually you have more money in movies, you have more people, a lot of people, and come see… Well, I think you have so much.
1:11:14
Tad Eggleston: There's much money, so much money involved that… that people start believing that they can be jerks.
1:11:20
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's this factor too, but I mean…
1:11:24
Tad Eggleston: It doesn't always work?
1:11:26
Tad Eggleston: Doesn't always work, but… Again.
1:11:31
Tad Eggleston: You're way more likely to have a situation where people don't feel like they can walk away.
1:11:37
Rafael Scavone: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:11:39
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, that's a thing.
1:11:41
Tad Eggleston: There just aren't…
1:11:42
Tad Eggleston: Where, like, they'll finish the comic because it looks bad for them if they don't, but it'll be like, yeah, we're not working again.
1:11:51
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:11:53
Rafael Scavone: But I think that's it. I think comics, you, as you said, you need to love it to do that, to make it.
1:12:01
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:01
Rafael Scavone: Interior.
1:12:02
Tad Eggleston: I mean, it's a shame. It's such a great art form that there needs to be more money in it.
1:12:07
Tad Eggleston: A, I think more people should be making comics. B, I wish we lived in a world where
1:12:15
Tad Eggleston: And it's ironic, because this is actually, like, theoretically, this is how capitalism is supposed to work, it just never seems to actually work that way. I wish that we worked… lived in a world where the people that did the jobs that nobody else wants
1:12:30
Tad Eggleston: Were the people that did the jobs that the most people actually get enjoyment out of whatnot.
1:12:37
Tad Eggleston: Actually got paid like it.
1:12:40
Tad Eggleston: But instead, instead, it seems like…
1:12:44
Tad Eggleston: No matter how good you are at your job, if you're an artist, nobody thinks you deserve money. And no matter how good you are at your job, and how little they want to do your job, if you're, like.
1:12:54
Tad Eggleston: A nurse's assistant, or a garbage man, or any number of jobs that most people would never, ever, ever want to do.
1:13:05
Tad Eggleston: they also don't pay you well. And it's like, that's not how capitalism is supposed to work.
1:13:11
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, capitalism is, is, is, is a, is a concept.
1:13:17
Tad Eggleston: Like, have you read Adam Smith? Have you read Adam Smith?
1:13:22
Rafael Scavone: That is me to be shocked. He would be very upset with this. Yeah.
1:13:26
Rafael Scavone: Shocking, yeah.
1:13:28
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:13:29
Tad Eggleston: Alright, my last question, this is my favorite question to ask everybody. Tell me something you love.
1:13:37
Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic, but we don't have rules.
1:13:40
Tad Eggleston: Preferably storytelling, but again, with the rules. But something that you love.
1:13:47
Tad Eggleston: Not cook?
1:13:49
Tad Eggleston: No, no, preferably a comic, but…
1:13:51
Rafael Scavone: comic?
1:13:52
Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic, but… but, like, we don't have rules, so if you want to pick something else, I don't care.
1:13:58
Tad Eggleston: But…
1:13:58
Rafael Scavone: But something…
1:13:59
Tad Eggleston: That you love, let me finish, that not enough people around you have experienced, and you want them to, so you have more people to talk about it with.
1:14:09
Rafael Scavone: Let me get… it's a comic, especially a comic, something I love.
1:14:15
Tad Eggleston: Comic would be fantastic.
1:14:17
Rafael Scavone: Well, a comica I love a lot. It's a stereos polyp.
1:14:22
Tad Eggleston: Oh! Oh!
1:14:25
Rafael Scavone: It's a masterclass.
1:14:26
Tad Eggleston: Shelly!
1:14:28
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, Mazika Ali. It's a masterclass in coming.
1:14:32
Tad Eggleston: Everything he does is a master class in comics, but yes.
1:14:38
Rafael Scavone: And I think it's not… it, of course, is a… is a…
1:14:43
Rafael Scavone: He's a rea… he's a famous author, but I think most people doesn't know.
1:14:49
Tad Eggleston: No, he's… he's… I mean, it's… it's…
1:14:52
Tad Eggleston: I can't remember if it was this one or City of Glass that Joe Illage said for the same question, but I don't know if you know who Joe Illage is. Joe Illage was one of the editors at Milestone, and then DC.
1:15:09
Rafael Scavone: He still does some writing as well. No, no, no, no.
1:15:11
Tad Eggleston: Great guy.
1:15:14
Tad Eggleston: But, no, he gave me one of the greatest quotes I've had on my show. He said, yeah, David Mazzicelli shows up every decade or so, drops the mic, and goes away again.
1:15:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
1:15:25
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, that book was something… was… for me, is a masterclass in comics, because there's almost everything you can… you can play with comics, there's in the…
1:15:36
Tad Eggleston: Well, and we were just talking about, like, a great comic you can read over and over and over and over again, and it's fresh and new, and you feel… I've probably read that book 30 times, and every time I get something different.
1:15:51
Tad Eggleston: and new, and fresh out of it.
1:15:54
Rafael Scavone: It's awesome. But I also love, I also love…
1:15:57
Rafael Scavone: I'm also a huge fan of Bill Waterson. I love carbon cops.
1:16:02
Tad Eggleston: Oh!
1:16:03
Rafael Scavone: I have all the books, I re-read and re-read, and I'm waking my son to get old to read it, so…
1:16:11
Tad Eggleston: A near-perfect comic.
1:16:14
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah. And I also love… I also love his, his, his posture of not, sell it, you know, not sell the brand and the characters.
1:16:28
Tad Eggleston: Here's what I'll tell you, because he also didn't sell any of the art.
1:16:33
Rafael Scavone: Yeah.
1:16:34
Tad Eggleston: He's given away pages. He's given away pages, but he hasn't sold any of the art.
1:16:41
Tad Eggleston: The con you want to go to, the con you want to even… you want to get invited, because then maybe you won't have to pay to get there, and you're coming from Brazil. But even if you don't get invited, the con that you want to go to
1:16:54
Tad Eggleston: is… Comics Crossroads Columbus.
1:16:58
Rafael Scavone: Columbus comes…
1:16:59
Tad Eggleston: which is Jeff Smith.
1:17:01
Rafael Scavone: phonics.
1:17:02
Tad Eggleston: Who did Bone.
1:17:03
Tad Eggleston: It's his con. He was one of the founders.
1:17:07
Tad Eggleston: And it's in conjunction with the Billy Ireland Cartoon Art Museum at Ohio State University.
1:17:14
Tad Eggleston: Which, among other things, has every page of Calvin and Hobbes that Bill hasn't given away.
1:17:22
Rafael Scavone: Wow. Wow, I'd love to see it.
1:17:25
Rafael Scavone: So… Wow.
1:17:29
Tad Eggleston: Just going to Columbus and saying, I'd like to seek out.
1:17:32
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I will.
1:17:34
Tad Eggleston: They'll bring it to the reading room.
1:17:37
Rafael Scavone: Well, you know, you gotta go to the middle.
1:17:39
Tad Eggleston: Ohio. You'll have to go to the middle of Ohio, but…
1:17:44
Rafael Scavone: I definitely want to go there. Wow. I love watching work.
1:17:50
Tad Eggleston: It is, it is the.
1:17:53
Rafael Scavone: Funks cross.
1:17:55
Tad Eggleston: It is the largest collection of comic art.
1:18:00
Tad Eggleston: in the United States.
1:18:02
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
1:18:02
Tad Eggleston: Ireland Museum.
1:18:04
Tad Eggleston: In part because they actually started, you know, milk caniff.
1:18:08
Rafael Scavone: Yeah?
1:18:09
Tad Eggleston: Terry and the Pirates, Steve Canyon.
1:18:11
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:18:11
Tad Eggleston: He's an Ohio State alum, too, so they started their collection when he gave them all of his papers
1:18:20
Tad Eggleston: And the stuff he had.
1:18:22
Tad Eggleston: So that's how they started, and they've got…
1:18:26
Tad Eggleston: all the stuff from Watterson, they've got a lot of stuff from Jeff Smith, but because… when you start with that, you start… actually, one of my favorite things that they have, and they're still working on cataloging it almost 20 years later, have you ever heard of a guy named Bill Blackbeard?
1:18:45
Rafael Scavone: You black bird. No black bird? No.
1:18:47
Tad Eggleston: Bill Blackbeard was actually, like, a comics historian?
1:18:51
Tad Eggleston: who… When they started converting all old newspapers to microfilm.
1:18:58
Tad Eggleston: And therefore throwing them out from the libraries. He went, oh no, comics are in color, they won't show up on microfilm the way
1:19:08
Tad Eggleston: They should. So he sent teams of people all across the country to libraries that were converting their stuff to microfilm to collect the comics.
1:19:19
Rafael Scavone: They…
1:19:21
Rafael Scavone: He is a wise guy.
1:19:23
Tad Eggleston: And he had his entire…
1:19:28
Tad Eggleston: I'm gonna, let me… I'm gonna… they have the… Billy Ireland still has a… a…
1:19:36
Tad Eggleston: Digital exhibit for this, so let me drop it into the chat, because you'll just love it.
1:19:40
Rafael Scavone: Oh.
1:19:40
Tad Eggleston: Aw.
1:19:41
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, definitely.
1:19:42
Tad Eggleston: But…
1:19:43
Tad Eggleston: But, so he… he put together, like, he collected… filled his entire condo, but then when… when he…
1:19:55
Tad Eggleston: Lost his lease, he had to find a place for it all, and he wanted it to stay together.
1:20:01
Tad Eggleston: And… and it was the Billy Ireland that was able to… to keep it all together, so they… they took it, and… and one day, like…
1:20:11
Tad Eggleston: 25, 30 years ago, 8 semi-trucks pulled up to the museum, filled with… Comic strips.
1:20:22
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
1:20:23
Tad Eggleston: Nope.
1:20:24
Rafael Scavone: Wow! That's awesome.
1:20:26
Tad Eggleston: That they are still cataloging. They find things that they never knew existed on almost a weekly basis.
1:20:34
Tad Eggleston: Because, I mean, There was an era where, you know, before…
1:20:41
Tad Eggleston: I think we might… I can't hear you, no. Did you… did your… Did your battery die?
1:20:53
Tad Eggleston: Oh, no, I can't hear you.
1:21:17
Rafael Scavone: Or no.
1:21:18
Tad Eggleston: Oh, now I can. But maybe your battery's dying, so we should… we should wrap it up. But check this out, because… because, yeah, in the era before photographs in newspapers.
1:21:29
Tad Eggleston: There were also comics…
1:21:32
Tad Eggleston: Not just for the comics page, but for, like, the front page, for the arts page, for the sports pages.
1:21:39
Tad Eggleston: You know, in this… in the online exhibit includes some, Windsor McKay front page art.
1:21:49
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
1:21:49
Tad Eggleston: Awesome.
1:21:51
Tad Eggleston: Not Nemo, front page.
1:21:54
Rafael Scavone: Wow, wow, I would definitely check it.
1:21:57
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, check it out. And, like I said, that's… that's the con that I recommend to everybody and anybody. This is… You love comics.
1:22:05
Tad Eggleston: And the other, the other upside is it's… it's free.
1:22:11
Rafael Scavone: Well, great. What is freedom? Yeah.
1:22:15
Tad Eggleston: You have to, you have to get there and pay for, like, Lodging, but, like…
1:22:22
Tad Eggleston: It's free to the public.
1:22:24
Rafael Scavone: Oh, that's awesome.
1:22:25
Tad Eggleston: Wow. Crazy. And it takes part all… I mean, they kinda… they kinda… they kinda modeled it after European cons, so it actually takes place across town. There are parts that are at the Billy Ireland, there are parts that are at…
1:22:40
Tad Eggleston: like, the keynote addresses are at the art center auditorium. There's another keynote address at the art museum. They generally have, like, a mangaka come and do a speech at the art school, and then, like, the artist alley and more programming takes place at the public library.
1:23:01
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
1:23:01
Tad Eggleston: like… Five different buildings.
1:23:04
Rafael Scavone: Boss.
1:23:05
Tad Eggleston: town. Awesome.
1:23:07
Rafael Scavone: Wow.
1:23:07
Tad Eggleston: Comics Crossroads.
1:23:09
Rafael Scavone: Is it like LUCA? Like, the LUCA convention, something like that.
1:23:13
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
1:23:14
Rafael Scavone: Wow, that's awesome.
1:23:15
Tad Eggleston: Exactly. Awesome.
1:23:16
Rafael Scavone: I'll definitely check it in. I don't know when I'll be able to go back to you.
1:23:21
Tad Eggleston: Well, no, I mean, it… It's not safe.
1:23:25
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. For us. You might wait until we have a new president.
1:23:33
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah.
1:23:34
Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Actually, they had an issue with that this year. They had somebody that they thought was gonna be able to come in because he had a French passport, but he got…
1:23:44
Tad Eggleston: stopped in… perish. I'm not allowed to get on the plane, because…
1:23:50
Rafael Scavone: Yeah…
1:23:51
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, a lot of Brazilians, a lot of Brazilians used to attend to the convention this year, just keep it, you know, went to Europe or Japan, something like that, because it's not safe for us. I don't want to, you know, to end in El Salvador.
1:24:08
Tad Eggleston: No, I mean, I mean, seriously, you know, I mean, when a British cartoonist backpacking winds up in a detention center for two weeks, I certainly wouldn't want to be brown. I mean, that was a young blonde girl.
1:24:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, I saw it. Yeah.
1:24:26
Tad Eggleston: There was a young… I mean, I hate to say it that way, but in the United States, like, generally, young blonde girls don't have trouble like that. So, if we're harassing young blonde girls like that, I certainly wouldn't want to be brown.
1:24:40
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a thing.
1:24:43
Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
1:24:45
Rafael Scavone: But, I still hope…
1:24:47
Tad Eggleston: I'm sorry.
1:24:49
Rafael Scavone: I apologize for my entire nation. No, no, you don't need to apologize. I know, nations… nations are a completely different thing than people, I know that.
1:24:59
Tad Eggleston: They are, they are, but, like, I'd like my nation to be cool enough that you could come back.
1:25:05
Rafael Scavone: I will, I will. Things will improve. I hope so.
1:25:08
Tad Eggleston: And we'll have to talk again, because I feel like we went all over the place and nowhere, so, so there's…
1:25:15
Rafael Scavone: We may try with Eduardo, when you have time. Maybe, as you said, I think Devil's Luck will be finishing around May?
1:25:24
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, so…
1:25:25
Tad Eggleston: with 5 dishes.
1:25:27
Tad Eggleston: Let's shoot.
1:25:27
Rafael Scavone: Yeah, for, like.
1:25:28
Tad Eggleston: May or June. Yeah, yeah.
1:25:30
Rafael Scavone: Edward's a cool guy.
1:25:31
Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, she's cool. Yeah, well, and I know, I know Chris would love to join us. It just wound up…
1:25:38
Rafael Scavone: That'd be great. Not being a good… Yeah.
1:25:41
Tad Eggleston: morning for her, so… Yeah.
1:25:43
Rafael Scavone: I hope.
1:25:44
Tad Eggleston: I hope.
1:25:44
Rafael Scavone: react.
1:25:46
Tad Eggleston: Thank you so much.
1:25:47
Rafael Scavone: Thank you, thank you for having me.
1:25:49
Tad Eggleston: And for 22 panels, we will see everybody on the next… oh my god… Okay, good.