Latest / Live in the Lab Schools / Ep #9 - Inside ROE 17: Partnerships, Innovation, and Teacher Pipelines with Molly Allen

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Ep #9 - Inside ROE 17: Partnerships, Innovation, and Teacher Pipelines with Molly Allen · Live in the Lab Schools

• 0:06
  Ben Webb: Hey, welcome to the podcast.
• 0:08
  Ben Webb: This week we have Molly Allen from the Regional Office of Education number 17 talking about the laboratory schools, but also talking about our neck of the woods in terms of ROE 17 priorities and education in the future.
• 0:21
  Ben Webb: My name is Ben Webb.
• 0:22
  Ben Webb: This is Andy Cope.
• 0:24
  Ben Webb: Stick around.
• 0:24
  Ben Webb: This is Live in the Lab School.
• 0:34
  Ben Webb: With us today is Molly Allen.
• 0:36
  Ben Webb: Molly, how are you?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm well.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to be here today.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate the invitation.
• 0:41
  Ben Webb: Awesome.
• 0:42
  Ben Webb: So uh just for listeners at home, what exactly is your title?
• 0:47
  Ben Webb: What is your jurisdiction?
• 0:48
  Ben Webb: Because I know it's you've got all kinds of different school districts and school systems, and a couple of us that don't fit into neat little boxes.
• 0:57
  Ben Webb: So, like, what is your like realm?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: My that I love that.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: My realm, um, I am the assistant regional superintendent of schools for ROE 17, which serves DeWitt, Livingston, Logan, and McLean counties.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: That includes 30 public school districts and 17 private schools.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you're right, the lab schools are a public entity, but we do not think of them as a traditional public district, so to speak.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So they are in some ways and they are very different in others.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we include them in our count, but it is unique to our region and also um in Illinois.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's only three or four other lab schools in the state.
• 1:44
  Ben Webb: Yep.
• 1:44
  Ben Webb: There are there's three total, and I've I've emailed all of the directors, and we're gonna have all three of us hopefully have a director's round table at sometime soon where we have UChicago lab, uh UniHigh uh director Bob Fitzgerald, who former uh faculty associate here at UHI and Princip uh assistant principal over at Metcalf, and then uh Dr.
• 2:07
  Ben Webb: Jones as well.
• 2:08
  Ben Webb: So we'll hopefully fantastic.
• 2:10
  Ben Webb: We'll bring you guys over too.
• 2:11
  Ben Webb: It'll be a nice kind of like meeting of the minds.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 2:14
  Ben Webb: Okay.
• 2:14
  Ben Webb: And you kind of mentioned like there's a number of different school districts and school systems.
• 2:18
  Ben Webb: So you've also got within your boundaries, you've got because you've got Bloom, you've got RAS, you've got a couple of other, they're not laboratory systems, they're public schools, but they also have individual focuses, right?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: We do offer um alternative educational programming.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So those students, we are considered the serving school, and they are um from all over our region and in different locations.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we have um several locations for our alternative school, and then we also have Bridge Academy, which is relatively new, and um that serves students in sixth through 12th grades.
• 3:00
  Ben Webb: So um take us through your educational journey.
• 3:03
  Ben Webb: Like, how did you get to where you are now?
• 3:06
  Ben Webb: All that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good question.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I grew up in an educational family.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: My dad was a teacher, coach, principal, school superintendent.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I loved education, I loved uh kids, and um, but I was hesitant to be a teacher, I think, because I grew up seeing kind of all the both positives and challenges that my dad and others experienced.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I did not actually study education undergrad.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: My undergrad degree is um I double-majored in religious studies and humanistic studies, which humanistic studies is um a program at St.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mary's where we basically started with the fall of the Roman Empire and went to modern times.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we studied historical documents from that time period, and then um Tuesdays and Thursdays we read the literature of the time and then also looked at art and culture and things like that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I minored in business.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but I'm gonna do that.
• 4:12
  Ben Webb: So you did a double major and then another minor?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: I did.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, thanks to good old AP credits, right?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, from high school times, which uh I absolutely loved my high school AP T English teacher.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, when I was graduating from college, I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: I had a strong ethic of service, so I did a programming in conjunction with AmeriCorps and the University of Notre Dame.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I graduated in May.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: In June, I started as a full-time grad student and um studying education.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then in August, I was a full-time teacher in Memphis, Tennessee.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so for two years, I was a full-time grad student and a full-time teacher, spent my summers in South Bend.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I mean, this is before Zoom and online classes, so to speak, but um had very intensive um educational experience in terms of lots of support in the school I was in.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I lived with five other people from all over the country doing the same thing in Memphis, and then our professors would come watch us teach for pretty significant chunks of time, and then um finished that master's program in two years, and that's how I became a licensed teacher and really through that fell in love with education and wanted to be a teacher.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: So then went back to central Illinois where I'd grown up and taught, got to start an AP English program at Dunlap High School.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then I really liked school, and so I swore I wasn't going to be an administrator.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I wanted to keep going to school, so I went back for a master's, and that was my first time as a red bird at ISU and got my principal's license and a master's in education there, and finished that in December of 2007, and then in January of 2008, I became an assistant principal at Dunlap Middle School and had the really unique, great experience of opening a brand new middle school.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So moved from Dunlap Middle to Dunlap Valley and opened this brand new building, and it was really um a formative educational experience just to get to build everything from athletic schedules from the ground up to that culture and climate from the beginning, and also just you know, the logistics of starting a new school.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that was a great experience, and then um wanted to become a principal.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: I very much have a passion for literacy.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So going from being a high school English teacher, as I'm sure you can relate to, just understanding the importance of formative literacy skills.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: So as I moved on, I really was interested in elementary school and wanted to have that experience, and was um an elementary principal for six years in a rural district in uh Fieldcrest, which was a really great experience.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my great-grandparents actually had immigrated from um Italy to Lucca, and so um it was kind of a full circle moment in that sense.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 2018, I came to the regional office working on a federal grant to improve principal instructional leadership, and then the opportunity came up in 2020 and I became the assistant regional soup, and that's where I am today.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And um I've just really been impressed with our regional superintendent, Mark Johntree, and all that happens in our region and all that our office does.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really exciting, um, comprehensive view of education, and it's been fun and challenging to get to see all those different pieces in play.
• 8:10
  Ben Webb: It really seems like a busy place.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's math happening right outside my door.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's youth mental health training going on as well.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um last week I spent some time walking buildings for health life safety.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we do there's bus driver training tonight.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's so much that goes on, but it's also really um gratifying work, I would say, because it from very nuts and bolts to more um exciting, kind of bigger picture things like math instruction.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a connection here.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it really connects to my view of service because I our office very much sees ourselves as service to our schools, teachers, students, and communities.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um that really is something that's very near and dear to my heart and always has been.
• 9:07
  Ben Webb: I joke with Andy a bunch about like the other duties as assigned.
• 9:12
  Ben Webb: I can only imagine the list of things that are not on the job description, but these are the things that I do on a given week.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and that's exciting and challenging.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it's it also we in particular I think serve um a lot of students and others that um don't have opportunities in more um traditional settings, or for example, we oversee um the educational program at juvenile detention.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, so it's it is uh pretty exciting and but also it is hard to get kind of uh what an ROE does in a sentence because it is so vast.
• 9:59
  Ben Webb: Well, and and you kind of you kind of transitioned me a little bit already in that so like what is the ROE's relationship in terms of the ISU laboratory schools?
• 10:08
  Ben Webb: I mean I I assume we either have a good reputation or we're in trouble and we're on the naughty list.
• 10:14
  Ben Webb: Um, but what like what's the relationship like?
• 10:16
  Ben Webb: Because we uh we have the university affiliation, we have rules and school code that we do and don't have to follow.
• 10:24
  Ben Webb: Either we're a thorn in your side or we're the ones that you know are just quietly down the block and you know trying not to like stir the pot too much.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't I don't see it as that at all.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think um with all of our districts, we really do see ourselves as service and as partners um with the lab schools.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: We have a unique relationship, even in that our office is the fiscal agent for HILIA.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we work closely with um the HILA group that is um both part of the lab schools, but also its own entity as well in some ways.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um the lab schools are unique, and like you said, there are certain parts of school code that apply and certain parts that don't.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: For example, um the health life safety, you know, every year we inspect every school building in our region.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: We do not inspect the lab schools because in school code they fall under um the university's purview for that.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So the lab schools are being inspected and monitored for health life safety, but that is happening through the university versus um our program and our system.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we really do see ourselves as partners with all of that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think because the lab schools are unique, a lot of our relationship sometimes is helping each other navigate that uniqueness.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if a new law is passed or regulations, sometimes it's um navigating like, well, does this apply to the lab schools or does it not?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think part of the excitement of the lab schools and that partnership is they um you do have more flexibility in some ways.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it's exciting to kind of see how that works.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then also you are such a you provide service to ISU in a way that um because ISU produces more teachers really than I think any other university in the country, um, that's an incredible responsibility and an incredible opportunity.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the lab schools um have that unique aspect as well, um, in terms of how you can add value to our our community and our schools as their own entity, but also how that interacts with our other districts as well.
• 12:50
  Ben Webb: And it's just really hard to like put a you know, kind of put a finger on what is uniqueness because we've got the HILIA piece where it's like HILIA is its own thing and our and the teachers in the HILIA program are faculty associates within the university system, and yet they are in D87, they are at Unit 5, they are and when we have a snow day, I'm thinking about like we just got our first big snow of the year when we're recording this.
• 13:16
  Ben Webb: Like uh we follow the home district's uh plan if or if it's a snow day or if it's uh e-learning day, but yet we don't have e-learning ourselves as a lab school.
• 13:28
  Ben Webb: So it's it's kind of we we are the big question marker.
• 13:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a good question, right?
• 13:34
  Ben Webb: Yeah.
• 13:35
  Ben Webb: Um so like what are some of the shared, like shared resources or shared like partnerships, the things that you've seen in our area where you see schools working together, whether it's with lab schools or even with within each other, like what are some of the things that are happening right now out of the ROE or things you're just seeing in general in terms of like in the face of education, what's some of the big newness that's coming down the pike?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think education does have a lot of opportunities inherent and also new ones that are coming.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think examples of strong partnerships are our alternative learning spaces where um we have RAS, the different RAS locations.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: We have Bridge, Bloomington Career Academy.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are great partnerships that exist already.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I've found in our region is um people are very collegial and willing to help out with each other.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's great relationships among other administrators and teachers across district lines that help in some informal ways to share expertise and opportunities.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then there are the more kind of formal pathways as well, where um our alternative programming, for example, where you know that's really helping schools problem solve and leveraging resources so that students who need um a more unique or specific environment can access that in a way that um works for them and their families.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: We also do a lot of professional learning in RROE.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mentioned there's math training happening right now.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've had over 400 teachers in our region and actually beyond our region that have participated in creating this math curriculum framework that it goes from kindergarten all the way up to algebra now, and they host monthly meetings.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, yesterday was K1, today is second and third grade, and we have teachers that come once a month, all day for professional learning, engage with our math coaches, and then they go back, implement, work with their students, and they come back a month from now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's really creating that shared expertise and shared knowledge.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, our math coaches also go out and push into those schools at times, too.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um that's an example of a shared service model where we have um a school improvement person, we have two math people, we have a um PBIS, and also um, I would call her a behavior expert, um, and also a science coach that districts create contracts with, where sometimes they're coming to our office to work across those district lines with other people, and other times they're specifically saying, hey, I need you in this building or in this classroom and working um at that level as well.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's um a strong example, I think, of us being able to leverage expertise throughout our region.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and also when you're one of those coaches who are frequently in different buildings, different places, um, you can really help share those resources.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's you know, actually, I can connect you with this teacher who's doing something similar or had a similar situation, and this is how they are are working on that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just a great example of I think the collegiality and the willingness to partner that we do see throughout our region.
• 17:16
  Ben Webb: So, what I'm kind of hearing is kind of from the hundred-mile view that you've got uh in your office, we're less of a ROE 17 that's a bunch of little cubicles doing our own thing.
• 17:28
  Ben Webb: There's there's more working together on shared priorities than might be expected.
• 17:35
  Ben Webb: Like this district might be working on this project and going and working in tandem with a neighboring district, or is it kind of like the ROE is kind of like the central point and then air traffic controlling to say, hey, you you three should really get together and brainstorm and work together on this thing?
• 17:53
  Ben Webb: I guess which of those metaphors do you think is more of more accurate?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe the air traffic control, but I but I will say we also do have people come to us sometimes and say, um, you know, we have this really niche thing that we want to work on.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: How can we bring that to everyone else or leverage or make those connections?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but it is really interesting to see how a lot of those connections come together and um and I think it's a lot of helping people develop their own expertise.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, we have teacher mentor programs, or we have we even have someone who's really um excellent with data and helping people unpack their data.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's still go out with a district and meet with teachers and or admin and kind of help just have different eyes at their data and say, here's what I'm seeing, what are you seeing?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then how can we build a plan from that information that's gonna better serve all your students?
• 19:00
  Ben Webb: Makes sense.
• 19:01
  Ben Webb: So kind of looking at the face of education in this uh year, what would you what do you want to see from schools in today's day and age?
• 19:14
  Ben Webb: Like is there a focus?
• 19:16
  Ben Webb: Is there an initiative?
• 19:19
  Ben Webb: Is there kind of like the next big thing?
• 19:21
  Ben Webb: One of my favorite things to do when I go to conferences is try and anticipate what is going to be the next big thing.
• 19:27
  Ben Webb: And sometimes you can kind of when you're at that conference, you can see the gimmick versus the real priority.
• 19:33
  Ben Webb: So I guess what would what would you like to see from from any school, not just a lab school, but like what what is the thing down the pike or the thing that we should be looking ahead to as like, all right, this is Molly Allen's next big thing.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I don't think it's my big thing, but to your point about seeing what's in kind of the zeitgeist at conferences, I feel like everything is AI right now.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and And that's of value because I think that that tension with technology has always existed in schools.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I remember when we went from, you know, kind of when Wikipedia as an English teacher was like, oh my gosh, we can't have kids using Wikipedia.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's, oh my gosh, we can't have kids using AI.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Or how do we have, you know, the better question is how do we have kids use uh Wikipedia or AI in ways that helps them develop as individual learners instead of um, you know, just shortcuts for getting work done or that sort of thing.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think what I would love to see coming from schools is just innovation and um literacy and also student voice, I think are the great opportunities.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, innovation, one of the challenges we have in education is there's a lot that's very traditional, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's we still typically run a Monday through Friday, classes are roughly 45 minutes, um, structure that follows kind of the um August to May calendar.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I think, and frankly, our schools are expected.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they have to meet certain criteria in terms of how much seat time students get, you know, traditional Carnegie units, where there's some some people are starting to look at more competency-based models.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think one of the things I'm really excited about is just innovation.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does what would it look like to schedule things a little differently?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Or how can we maximize opportunities for students through scheduling, even if it still falls within that August to May piece?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, how can we give kids more opportunities that maybe adjusts schedules or looks at their opportunities differently?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we do have a lot of challenges too, where you know, there's a teaching shortage.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can we leverage um veteran teacher expertise to help onboard and promote and support newer teachers?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, literacy, like I mentioned earlier, it has been a passion of mine.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think I had the great opportunity of Illinois has a literacy plan that came out um a couple years old now.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, they're we just have we're in the drafting phase of a numeracy plan.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: But Illinois is a local control state, which means districts and schools have a lot of local autonomy in terms of um what materials and things like that that they use.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But there was a law that was passed that said, you know, the state board of education needs to write a literacy plan.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I got to be uh a representative that was included in writing that plan and through its um different iterations.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think even as both a parent and an educator, we're all we're all navigating that role of technology because ultimately we do want kids to have the opportunity to engage appropriately with technology in ways that helps their learning, but we also want them to have those foundational skills when it comes to um literacy, math, um, all of the subjects really.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's an opportunity.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's it's a challenge, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I used to joke when I was teaching, I went from the traditional overhead to PowerPoint.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, they're the same notes, but they seemed brighter and shinier.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so now, you know, we have kids that because of social media sometimes are their attention spans are maybe even a little shorter than say when I was a kid.
• 23:55
  Ben Webb: Um wait, we're talking about the kids or the adults.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we're all right.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's the that's the question, right?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've all kind of wholeheartedly accepted having phones as these core parts of our lives, and yet we don't have tons of data or enough time to really say what are some of the long-term implications for all of this.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I think we've seen that, right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have some schools that um have been allowing phones, and now even several of our local schools this year have removed phones from classrooms, and that's an interesting ongoing opportunity.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, so I think that piece of what does it mean to have um literacy in this day and age?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: What do innovative opportunities look like?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I also think um opportunities for student voice.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if we want students to become engaged, thoughtful citizens in the future, what are ways that we can have them as engaged, thoughtful citizens now so that they feel some agency and can give us some input?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think crafting crafting opportunities for that to be genuine and not just kind of perfunctory, like we invited a kid to a meeting, but um, how do we find opportunities to engage students in their learning and in caring for their school communities?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had a great when I was thinking about this podcast, I thought um I had a really great mentor, um, Doc Doyle, we called him Dr.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Doyle.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: He he really hammered into me that you know you have to be very clear about why you are asking a student to do any task, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: You have to really have crystal clear understanding of why you are asking the student to read this or write this or create this or take this test or answer this question.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I honestly think today's kids are probably even more skeptical than previous, where if you are asking them to do something, they want to know why, what's the purpose.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so um I think that's an exciting opportunity for us as educators to think about what is compelling work for today's kids, you know, what um what tasks and things do we want them to be prepared for um and excited about.
• 26:24
  Ben Webb: So we'll even just one like one of the words that you brought up there is compelling.
• 26:30
  Ben Webb: Like sometimes I think people they say education is, you know, part entertainment and part making some kind of show and dance to like keep them engaged, but like give them a compelling reason to not only uh listen to what you have to say, but accept the challenge that you're putting forward to them.
• 26:52
  Ben Webb: Like it it shouldn't it doesn't have to be a chore.
• 26:56
  Ben Webb: And at the same time, if you're giving them a compelling reason to insert their voice, and I love I love just the idea of in this digital I mean, because they're going through a digital adolescence faster than some of us adults are.
• 27:10
  Ben Webb: Um so as they are going through that digital adolescence and how do they find their voice among an AI-driven, like the AI the AI can write a paper for my class with the prompt and the rubric.
• 27:26
  Ben Webb: And quite honestly, I have uh tools that allow me to, as a teacher, uh convert those rubrics, build those rubrics, make those better.
• 27:34
  Ben Webb: Like so like all of that going on, uh their voice is so important.
• 27:39
  Ben Webb: And just having a voice among all of that that can kind of speak louder than the tool, I feel like that's kind of going back to like your Wikipedia example earlier.
• 27:49
  Ben Webb: It's like, uh, you can't use the Wikipedia, you can't use the internet, that's uh that's diabolical, that's evil.
• 27:55
  Ben Webb: And yet uh these tools that get inserted into our classrooms or into our learning environments, uh they always have been the new thing that gets added, but uh there's always that apprehension at first, and then there's the acceptance, and then we go through the stages of grief of like, oh well, I really missed those overheads that I made.
• 28:14
  Ben Webb: Right.
• 28:15
  Ben Webb: I miss the light bulb that goes out every other year with my overhead.
• 28:18
  Ben Webb: But eventually we then I mean, I think I use the SAMR model about technology reintegration and replacement.
• 28:24
  Ben Webb: Like eventually you get to something where it's redefining what is possible, and that could be compelling.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um one of the things, even from my first years of teaching, were um how you documented, you know, in English classes you were supposed to always use MLA documentation and which is the greatest of the formats, by the way.
• 28:45
  Ben Webb: Chicago manual garbage, APA.
• 28:49
  Ben Webb: Yeah.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it was um, you know, there were structures even when I was a student where they wanted you to memorize how you do documentation.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And kids were getting tested on, you know, where does the period go and what's italicized and what's underlined.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then in my first couple years of teaching, I actually had students that were like, hey, there's this, you know, bib, I can't even think of the names anymore, but um, you know, there are these internet engines that will do it for you.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of really quickly was like, oh, this is fantastic.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is a great example of work smarter, not harder.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like knowing you have to know enough to check to make sure it's accurate, but also it's not super compelling that you memorize how you format a document when it is so readily available to use a tool.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of that energy, you can put your energy into your voice, your thoughts, um, that part of writing a paper versus you know the formatting piece, so to speak.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but yeah, so those challenges I think have always been um there, but they do look different and they get a little scary, right?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the idea of the internet being so vast and kids' images and access and um their data about themselves that they're you know creating, whether purposely or not, exists.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but we have to frame it as an opportunity and we have to also help kids understand those compelling reasons of, you know, if we want quality AI, we have to have quality inputs going in, and that's what's happening in your minds and classrooms.
• 30:41
  Ben Webb: I think depending on the day, I'm either a transcendental optimist where I'm like, oh, well, these children who have been around fake imagery gener image generation and like questioning the bias of news articles since they were born, like that's their entire existence has been questioning authority and whether that but then on the other hand, I'm like a transcendental pessimist where I'm like, oh gosh, they're gonna they're gonna use some kind of Sora 2 in order to generate this thing that's even worse than 6'7.
• 31:10
  Ben Webb: And yeah.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that's I mean, one of the things, and I I definitely get this from my dad, is um being an educator is hopefully inherently a hopeful endeavor, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, by choosing to be engaged in education and being a teacher and an educator, it's because we believe that this next generation hopefully will do better than we have.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, those days, it doesn't always feel like that every day and every minute, but inherently connecting to that joy and excitement and um getting to go with kids on that learning journey, I think is is really exciting and seeing those successes.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that's some of the currently some of the most exciting things that I get to be a part of is even in our alternative programs, um witnessing kids and their families sometimes who, you know, maybe aren't excited that they're gonna be engaged in this alternative program, and then getting in the alternative program and being like, this is awesome, this really works well for me, and I'm excited.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and the opportunities that come from that I think are incredible.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it is it can be a challenge, but that joy and excitement has to, as much as we can center that, right?
• 32:29
  Ben Webb: It's gotta come from somewhere.
• 32:31
  unknown: Yes, it does.
• 32:33
  Ben Webb: What are the challenges that you see coming down the pipeline for like a laboratory school?
• 32:38
  Ben Webb: I say that with an understanding of there are so few of us and there's fewer of us in the world, but at the same time, not not to kind of twist the question towards like, are we gonna be here for a while?
• 32:50
  Ben Webb: But like, what are the challenges that you see for our type of school where our priority and our mission is teacher preparation and research and you know, service to the profession?
• 33:02
  Ben Webb: Like, what are some of the challenges that are specific to us?
• 33:06
  Ben Webb: And I'll take really good notes so that I can make a to-do list or a shopping list for later.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, like you said, um, because ISU is such a um it's the place for teacher prep, especially in Illinois.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um they do it well and they have for a long time, and there's a lot of pride um in both our community and throughout the state for people that um have that educational background.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think looking at um what does teaching look like in the future, um, we are witnessing and experiencing very real teacher shortages.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that puts a pressure on all of our systems where um, you know, if somebody needs a high school Spanish teacher, they need a high school Spanish teacher now.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need one four years from now or three years from now when they finish a program.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So um that pressure, I think, also does create a chance for us to think a little differently about teacher prep or what are ways that we can engage um the traditional college student that wants to be a teacher, but also um, you know, our office typically gets a lot of outreach from um people in the community or others that say, you know, hey, I have a bachelor's degree, it's not in teaching, but I really um, you know, I subbed at my kids' school or I just really want to go back and become a teacher.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so that creates um a place where we can think differently about that pressure to fill those teaching positions, but also um how can we maybe leverage places like the lab school to um help people engage and think about uh, well, I do want to be a teacher, or even it's not just teaching, frankly.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, school psychs, school social workers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, all of those people that support schools, principals, assistant principals.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think where there's lots of options there where we can think about engaging people to think about that career.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then back to the idea of student voice, you know, what does um part of the reason I went back to school when I was um a younger teacher was I I didn't, I couldn't project what I wanted to do for the next 30 years.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, and now the job market is so different.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I was first a teacher, it was kind of like you you got a job in a district and you probably were gonna stay there forever because there wasn't a lot of mobility.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: And one benefit of the teaching shortage is we are seeing people move, um move, you know, make even making lateral moves across districts for different challenges and opportunities.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the lab schools, um, because of that, you know, they are a public school and they are beholden to a lot of the same regulations, but not all of the regulations.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I think the lab schools do a great job of always kind of trying to navigate that line.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, where is it advantageous to utilize that flexibility?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And where does that take us too far afield from being a public school that it's not helpful anymore?
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that's a a place where our lab schools can really think innovatively about um how can we model some things or try some things that can help us address the problems that all of our districts are seeing and all of our the challenges and um and hearing what you know what do today's teachers want and what opportunities do they see for themselves in the future.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, I instructional coaching is a great example of I can't remember when I was a student, I don't think we had instructional coaches.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd say it's still a relatively new concept, and yet those are great opportunities and experiences for people.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um there's and ultimately the lab schools in ISU, because of their proximity um to each other and because of that relationship, they're also kind of a touchstone.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think so many teacher candidates at least have been at Metcalf or UHI and had an experience there that it creates kind of a commonality through all so many of our teachers throughout the state because they've probably had an experience at Metcalf or UHI.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then just opportunities for to really be cutting edge in terms of what we can do to help our profession and also our our lab school students.
• 37:56
  Ben Webb: Not sure that translates into anything like a to-do list, but I mean so I got a tangent and then I have a question.
• 38:03
  Ben Webb: So the tangent is you talked about like they've had an experience at UHIRE Metcalf.
• 38:09
  Ben Webb: So true story, a couple of years ago, I'm walking down the hallway at the third floor at university high school, and I hear someone call me by my first name.
• 38:17
  Ben Webb: And the kids don't call me by my first name.
• 38:19
  Ben Webb: The adults don't call me my by my parents don't call me by my first name.
• 38:22
  Ben Webb: I'm literally called Webb by everyone in the theater program, kids in my freshman level, like all of them.
• 38:28
  Ben Webb: And someone says, Hey Ben, and I turn around like, How dare, who is it was my cousin.
• 38:34
  Ben Webb: Um she came to observe my class and she sat through my nine o'clock freshman English class.
• 38:39
  Ben Webb: She got me to sign her form.
• 38:41
  Ben Webb: It was her first time in a high school classroom.
• 38:44
  Ben Webb: And you talk about the experience of well, well, she changed her major the next day to elementary ed.
• 38:51
  Ben Webb: So like she had that experience where it's like, I don't want to do high school anymore.
• 38:55
  Ben Webb: I want to do the littles and I want to I want to teach uh a younger group.
• 39:01
  Ben Webb: Like she had that experience, she had that moment where it was like the light bulb went off, and it was like, oh yeah, high schoolers are gross.
• 39:08
  Ben Webb: And I I think I think with Andy and I do that all the time, where it's like he talks about the things he does in middle school, and I'm like, oh, I could never I could never do a younger group.
• 39:16
  Ben Webb: And then he's like, oh yeah, I uh once I hit once I hit ninth grade, like gross, I don't want to talk to them anymore.
• 39:22
  Ben Webb: So I have that tangent, but I also then okay, so the question then is so how bad is the teacher shortage in terms of like I imagine you have connections throughout the state and with all of the other ROEs in the state.
• 39:36
  Ben Webb: So like uh how bad is the teacher shortage?
• 39:38
  Ben Webb: Because I feel like we always hear about it.
• 39:42
  Ben Webb: And I'm just curious from like from your perspective, like I I see the teacher shortage and I see the people who are coming through the teacher prep program and leaving with a certificate.
• 39:54
  Ben Webb: But I guess uh in your mind or from your view, like how bad is it right now?
• 40:00
  Ben Webb: Also, the to-do list for me then is okay, what do I have to do to change that?
• 40:05
  Ben Webb: And I think you kind of spoke to that in terms of like, well, we've been doing school the same for so long.
• 40:11
  Ben Webb: So maybe we need to find a way to do teacher prep different in order to then create those pathways towards you're in the classroom and you're doing great at it.
• 40:22
  Ben Webb: So I guess how bad is it?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what so ROEs are part of a statewide organization called IARSS.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And for the last several years, we have partnered with the state board and others to sponsor um a shortage survey.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think it's interesting because you know, we had um for the previous school year, there were um almost 2,000 unfilled teaching positions in the state.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so that impact can feel really different.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of those were special education teachers, a lot of bilingual teachers, um reading teachers, um, things like that.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there's kind of that bigger statewide view of yeah, I mean, that's a lot of um unfilled positions.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think of, you know, even one of the things I do frequently is I train substitute teachers, and I always start with telling them, like, hey, when you think of how many days in a kid's education they have a sub, it's significant.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: So even like good substitute teachers matter.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so there's this kind of bigger picture of the state of like, yeah, and I will say too, you know, that's something even I mentioned my dad before, like, he'll ask me, you know, kind of a similar question, like, is the teacher shortage real?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, yeah, it's real.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's real not only in that um unfilled positions that occur, which if it gets to an unfilled position part, I mean, that means the school year has started and it's underway, and that spot is not filled by um an appropriately licensed person.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and the other reality then is when jobs are open, you know, I remember early days as an assistant principal, sometimes we'd have 60, 70, 100 applicants for one position.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: And now I think even in places where they're able to fill those positions, the applicant pool is not as deep.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I even as a principal one year I had an open position and I interviewed like 10 people, and you know, we spent a lot of time figuring out who is the good, who is the you know, first choice candidate, second, et cetera.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I ended up hiring um like the sixth choice because they had competitive offers.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so it's changed not only the landscape of what's happening in those shortages, but also what it means to hire and retain people.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh there it happens where you hire someone in January to start in August and they resign before they even start because they got another position.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that um that is real.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we better prepare them?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: But also um again, kind of I and we do have several schools in the region that are looking at different ways to schedule schools or schedule um classrooms so that you know they can pair people together so that the more veteran teacher is supporting the newer teacher and all of those students.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think it it is kind of an opportunity to see um what that looks like, but also um helping, I think, student candidates understand they they're living in a time where they actually have lots of choice, right?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they can um through the interview process really think and be reflective about what school community they want to be a part of.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so now obviously they can't just pick and say, I want to work there, but um when they're applying places, they can think about that.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and sometimes for veteran teachers too, we're seeing more of that, like I said, where they can they can have years of experience and make a move, and that can be um really you know invigorating or just a new opportunity uh as well.
• 44:31
  Ben Webb: So are you seeing I I don't I I don't remember the statistic, but there was a statistic about like uh if a person makes it past like year five, the likelihood that they will maintain and keep that job for a much longer career.
• 44:46
  Ben Webb: Are you seeing any improvements in teacher burnout in terms of like I'm new to the profession, I'm getting my classroom to myself for the first time, I just graduated.
• 44:58
  Ben Webb: Are you seeing any improvements in that piece or is that kind of a separate component to this whole shortage?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think no retention is important, and I think we have at the state level seen um that improve in part because I think we've come to understand that better, that um our new people really need to be thoughtfully onboarded and supported.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, our districts do a really nice job of um for the most part, I think creating those kind of programs and support so that people feel like they have a go-to person and um can get set in that because uh retention does matter.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we're also starting to understand, too, that um a lot of people who persist in education tend to um, I forget the statistic exactly, but they end up working pretty close to where they grew up or wherever they would call home.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of focus on um grow your own kind of initiatives.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's a great opportunity for the lab schools, and even we've seen it at Bloomington Career Academy and Unit 5 and our other districts do a good job of it, where we start talking to high school and even junior high students about you'd be a great teacher.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you can have, you know, your point where you said, you know, your cousin said, Oh, I don't want to do high school.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually a really great thing where we want kids to identify.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's um there's a superintendent up north who, you know, he kind of posits the question of how many iterative experiences does a high school student or does a student have to have between K2 K12, how many different experiences do they need to have so that by the time they graduate high school, they're about 90% sure of what path they want to go on.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: So by the time they're 18, what what can we have done or exposed them to so that they can say, you know, I'm pretty sure I want to be a teacher, I'm pretty sure I want to be in the health field.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: They might not know exactly, you know, as your cousin, you know, I want high school or middle school, but they know that's where they want to land because um frankly, college is a really expensive experiment.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was a good example of that with my um religion and uh humanistic studies double major and accounting uh or business minor.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I went straight into grad school.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: Luckily, I was able to have that paid for.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um those kind of experiences I think are important.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we're seeing more of that um regionally and statewide, where people are, you know, what kind of back to that idea of what's compelling, you know, are when we're talking to um even elementary students, helping them understand what careers could be potentially connected.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even our local children's museum does a really good job of um their exhibits are fun and focused on play, but also, you know, kids can imagine themselves in a health field or farming or agriculture or um working in an energy field.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those kinds of opportunities and questions are even more important because um we can encourage kids to have an idea of what they like and what they want to do, um, and also see where to go.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where our um local ISU, Wesley, and Heartland are all fantastic assets that um kids can actually see that up close.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ISU physics is frequently at our local children's museums.
• 48:45
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:46
  Ben Webb: I'm just happily happy you kind of turned it back towards hopeful because the last question was kind of concerning, and I was like, oh darn.
• 48:54
  Ben Webb: Um so Andy's not here this week, he's off, but he always has us do the fast five, which is five questions basically just to know who you are really quick.
• 49:04
  Ben Webb: Okay.
• 49:04
  Ben Webb: And so he would yell at me if I didn't do these.
• 49:07
  Ben Webb: So here we go.
• 49:09
  Ben Webb: You kind of already answered a few of these.
• 49:11
  Ben Webb: Who is the person that led you most into education?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I would say um a combination of my my dad and just some absolutely fantastic teachers I had as kids as a kid.
• 49:23
  Ben Webb: So what is your go-to caffeine to get through the school day?
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I I just am pretty traditional with the you know, brood at home in the coffee pot, coffee, couple, couple to go in the day, or I won't sleep at night.
• 49:39
  Ben Webb: Favorite subject when you were a student?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: English and literature.
• 49:46
  unknown: Okay.
• 49:46
  Ben Webb: What are you reading, watching, or listening to right now?
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um reading.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: I actually am currently reading a um John Grisham kind of light series.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I met my reading goal for the year.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so now I'm cruising a little bit, and our local bookstore just did a challenge too.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I was I did put my English teacher hat back on, and um one of the books was uh a classic.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I read uh reread Jane Austen's Persuasion, and that was fun to go back to as an adult.
• 50:26
  Ben Webb: Okay, and last one, what's your favorite thing about being a part of the ROE?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think just the we are a really great place to work, and we really put relationships and people and service first, and that is a real joy to get to be a part of every day because um, you know, even things like compliance, we see that as we're helping our schools do what they need for students, and so um that brings a lot of excitement and joy because we get to be problem solvers.
• 51:04
  Ben Webb: Thank you, thank you.
• 51:05
  Ben Webb: Everyone, Molly Allen from the ROE17.
• 51:08
  Ben Webb: Thank you so much for being on the podcast, and we'll see you next time.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Live in the lab schools production of the IST laboratory school.