Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Car Design | Sam Livingstone | S7 E7

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Future of Car Design | Sam Livingstone | S7 E7 · FUTURE OF XYZ

• 00:00:04:03 - 00:00:17:12 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of X, Y, Z. Excited to introduce our guest today, Sam Livingstone. Sam, thank you for joining us for future of X, Y, Z on the future of car Design. 00:00:17:14 - 00:00:20:15 Speaker 2 Thank you, Lisa. Nice to be here with you. 00:00:20:17 - 00:00:51:00 Speaker 1 Well, I'm really excited that we're doing this. We your car mobility expert specifically in design, you are the principal and director at Car Design Research based in Cambridge in the UK and England. You founded that in 2000. You teach, I believe, at the Royal College of Arts in the UK, as well as lecture at places like Art Center Pasadena, which has an amazing car design program as well as you may in Sweden and and in South Korea. 00:00:51:02 - 00:01:16:12 Speaker 1 But you also are an I have design award juror in transportation and cars alongside this year in Hamburg we had Albert Kissinger and of Volkswagen and Peter Schreyer, formerly of Volkswagen and now here and we started talking about cars and totally geeking out on cars, which I have a love for as well. And this is how we got here. 00:01:16:12 - 00:01:19:11 Speaker 1 So I'm thrilled we get to do this interview. 00:01:19:13 - 00:01:26:09 Speaker 2 Yeah. Now we're nice to have had that conversation with you and to shout out to Carla when we were in Germany. So that was good. 00:01:26:11 - 00:01:50:08 Speaker 1 In some I was. My mom used to make fun of me all the time. I think I've shared this with you. My mom would like be like, Why is such a snob? Like, she really, like starting young age, like, really hated the fact that I pointed out cars and has only been in my adult life that I've come to realize how much I've always loved car design and still have real heart for what's happening, especially on the vintage side, but not exclusively. 00:01:50:10 - 00:02:15:17 Speaker 1 And I think it's important. It behooves us to have this conversation because we played with like what? What are we talking about? Is it are we just talking about cars? Are we talking about mobility? We're talking about vehicles. But I think in the end, we got to this place where it's like the future of car design. Sam I want to use this time to always introduce like based on your expertise and in the context of today's conversation, like define car design for us. 00:02:15:19 - 00:02:33:02 Speaker 2 Yeah. well, and the thing I think when we think of design in most industry spaces, we that fashion or product or even interior, it is relatively tightly bound to the designer themselves. A practitioner will actually be able to touch many facets of what that is in car design. You know, it could be $1,000,000,000 to develop the entire car. 00:02:33:03 - 00:02:51:10 Speaker 2 There are hundreds, invariably thousands of people who, if you like, design that car in terms of actually get it from an idea to being something you can buy. So the actual design label within automotive is more specific. It is more about the esthetic, it is less about the wider idea of the vehicle, it's less about the technology or the materiality of it. 00:02:51:16 - 00:03:09:12 Speaker 2 So in automotive, car design tends to be a slightly narrow band, but you could argue it's also one which is got a bit more fidelity, a little bit more sort of nuance or subtlety. So yeah, I think that's the key distinction, sort of take it car designer that it has to do less, but they have a less broad remit than designers within other realms. 00:03:09:14 - 00:03:15:01 Speaker 1 That's interesting. Do you think that's partially because cars are just so complex? 00:03:15:03 - 00:03:31:04 Speaker 2 I think it's almost entirely that, Lisa, you've also got sort of a kissing cousin of that is the way in which the industry is so developed and has been sort of progressed over, what, about 100 years since the first car was on the was out there. So that it's now in terms of process and if you like, roles and responsibilities is really quite tightly defined. 00:03:31:04 - 00:03:47:03 Speaker 2 If even goals they've got different types of car designer fundamentally and if you like, simply you've got exterior design as interior designers, But also a body of designers called Kalamazoo, finished designers that tend to do the stuff that you can literally see and touch and enjoy inside the vehicle. And of course, a growing band of people who would be called you by design. 00:03:47:03 - 00:03:53:03 Speaker 2 And so even in the automotive design, you've got several distinctly different design types. 00:03:53:05 - 00:04:14:09 Speaker 1 It makes sense at car design research, the firm that you run, you you all claim to be fluent in car design to see things from a customer point of view, but also to embrace the connected, autonomous, shared and electrified future. I'm curious what you think the state of car design is today. 00:04:14:11 - 00:04:36:13 Speaker 2 I mean, I had some idea you might ask me that question, and it's a pretty big sweeping question. So I'll do my level best to sort of somehow on the state car design, I suppose simply in one word, the anxious, you know, within the car design space, it's a sort of a lens, if you like, for the wider industry, which is kind of under duress, it's it's slipping from internal combustion engines for petrol and diesel powered vehicles to electric ones. 00:04:36:15 - 00:04:58:04 Speaker 2 There's all sorts of machinations. But the headline there is an economic one. It's really tricky to make these things at a price point in which people are cannot easily swallow. But there's a variety of other things which are just fundamentally about how an industry is changing and in the heart of what actually delivers. But then parallel and separate to that is the sort of emergence of China based as a consumer of cars and a producer of cars. 00:04:58:06 - 00:05:24:22 Speaker 2 The related point in which they can make these vehicles. So cheaply. And then I guess you got wider geopolitical things at bay. So there's actually a whole lot of stress and strain and what is essentially massive organizations that straddle many different regions and are inherently unable to be as agile as perhaps most other sectors might be. It's a really interesting challenge, but one that's so exciting because of that change, I suppose. 00:05:24:24 - 00:05:44:09 Speaker 1 Well, I mean, you touched on a bunch of different things in there, Sam, that I want to pull on the thread. Well, I think one is the difference between different regulatory markets as well as consumer demand regions. I mean, how do car companies account for all of that? I mean, what is it? What is the model in design? 00:05:44:09 - 00:06:04:15 Speaker 1 You can't make different designs. Well, I mean, you can you can have small releases. I mean, I know Volkswagen as, for instance, the DTI in the US, in the Gulf, still in Europe. And that's a tiny little example. There are market specific designs, but their regulatory conditions also that needs how do car designers account for those differences in in today's world and looking towards the future? 00:06:04:17 - 00:06:22:08 Speaker 2 I mean, there have always been some degree of those regulatory differences in different markets. Simplistically, you've got Asia, you've got Europe, you've got America, but even then you've got some divisions that sit in there and they sit around emissions and stuff, which is, if you like, on the technical side. So not something that most designers are able to affect or have bearing on. 00:06:22:10 - 00:06:43:00 Speaker 2 But then you've got other things which would be more potent like so for example, in Europe we have a thing called pedestrian impact legislation, which means if a car drives into it shouldn't cut you into a thousand small pieces, which maybe a cybertruck might do, which is certainly why you can't buy one of those in Europe. So there is so there's instances where regulatory requirements prevent a vehicle from being sold in one country or other. 00:06:43:00 - 00:07:04:02 Speaker 2 But many countries, of course, as very many car brands are developing vehicles which conform to those in most or all of those sectors. And some of them, of course, choose just to focus on the home territory. So many Chinese designs are only designed for that market. I mean, there is distinctions there. Lisa, and is a factor for design, but it's probably one of the less large or chunky or if dare I say it, most interesting ones. 00:07:04:07 - 00:07:22:21 Speaker 2 I think the difference is when you look across an international thing is the nature of how people are different and also how they're so similar and the ways in which they're the ways in which they flex their muscles that they want it to affect the nature of what a car design could or should be. And I think that's the most interesting thing is the rate of change is so fast. 00:07:22:23 - 00:07:29:18 Speaker 2 And yeah, it's just fascinating to see the subtle distinctions between different regions in what they want and their appetite for different vehicles. 00:07:29:20 - 00:07:51:08 Speaker 1 So so it's a great answer. And so interesting because every industry has its versions of this, but cars for the answer that you gave on what is car design, I think this is like quite an interesting challenge, but something that may be juicier, meatier, more interesting than that is, of course, the role of brand, which of course is my favorite topic. 00:07:51:13 - 00:08:18:09 Speaker 1 I mean, you have so many car companies now with the EVs in China and all the rest of it. I mean, can you guys at car design research work with Toyota and Bentley and Polestar and Honda and Ford and Honda and Volkswagen Group and McLaren and Kia and I don't even know where it stops, Volvo. And like you guys have a very broad portfolio and that doesn't even begin to kind of touch the tip of the iceberg in terms of car companies and brands that are out there. 00:08:18:11 - 00:08:29:05 Speaker 1 What is the role of brands in design like? Let's talk about it, like differentiation, customer loyalty, preference. I don't even know, like there's so much happening on that space. 00:08:29:06 - 00:08:46:20 Speaker 2 It really is. So it's very hard to have a sort of short conversation with you about that, I suppose. I think in design there's a lack of appreciation for just how significant brand is. Obviously, designers recognize that they are designing a vehicle which needs to imbue and express the character, which is consistent with or derives from that brand. 00:08:46:20 - 00:09:12:00 Speaker 2 So, you know, we can all think as we listen to you and I talk now of a particular car brand, maybe it's when we own or we particularly love, and when we think of that, there's all sorts of associations of meaning that we have, which we've got from that companies communications and that are embedded in our head. But a lot of it also comes from the nature of what those vehicles are and fundamentally from their design, you know, you see a Bentley on the street and it speaks of being a Bentley, or least it should also have a bearing on how you receive it. 00:09:12:00 - 00:09:26:15 Speaker 2 You know, when you see it, if you like. And you know what, that doesn't look like a Bentley should do. So design is such a communication tool. And in automotive design, this three dimensionality and the way in which we've got proportions, we got scale, we've got the type of design, we've got the surfaces, we've got the details, we've got the graphic. 00:09:26:21 - 00:09:43:01 Speaker 2 So many facets of automotive design have this purpose of communicating meaning. And a lot of the work that we do is about establishing, okay, what is the meaning of that brand should have? But also then what is the meaning of that model within that brand should have that's distinct to the core? And then how should that be communicated? 00:09:43:06 - 00:10:17:00 Speaker 2 Made evident and sort of delivered and realized in a positive way that it should be through design. So design three dimensionally, automotive exterior predominate, but also the interior to communicate is such a massive thing. I'm always a little bit frustrated why in the way that which it may often be presumed to be communicated, it's actually through communications and to the to the advertising and PR and so forth when actually the product itself and it's visual, but also how it feels and all sorts of other facets of your consumption of design really is the core of the communicator of the brand. 00:10:17:02 - 00:10:46:10 Speaker 2 But there's all sorts of other ways. Of course, I shouldn't just wrap it on. I should hear what you should ask me, but I'm also mindful of how much important it is as a as a signifier, a brand. So we already we're familiar with the sort of logo marks and how they signify brand. But as you really see, there's so many new brands out there that increasingly when you're competing in certain regions, particularly China, where you've got a fairly young audience, shall we say, they're not accustomed to vehicles and they don't navigate brands with the other long period of heritage that we have most in the West. 00:10:46:12 - 00:11:00:14 Speaker 2 So the need to assert yourself and your brand through the three dimensionality as well as the logos, and to do that in a way that's both distinct but also consistent and to understand the values of consistency and distinction. I know that that's another realm. But well, I mean. 00:11:00:16 - 00:11:24:10 Speaker 1 As a brand person, like, all of that makes perfect sense. And to many of our listeners, they who aren't brand people, they probably will intuit what you're saying. But I mean, I think one of the things that's interesting, I mean, just use an example that went viral and then kind of fell off a cliff, it seems to me, is the Jaguar are also known as Jaguar Rebrand relaunch that happened in December at Art Basel Miami. 00:11:24:12 - 00:11:46:11 Speaker 1 And kind of there is question in this fear is like is this a spoof, is this a meet like what is this I have no idea what happened with the design of cars, but the idea was that it was going younger and taking back the Jaguar heritage. But that's one example. The you know, the the bulks wagon like, you know, rerelease of what we call it in Southern California. 00:11:46:11 - 00:12:04:22 Speaker 1 Growing up like the van, again, the classic, you know, van. I mean, these are design pieces that are really putting the brand first and foremost and putting the brand on the line in some ways. I mean, design really is actually like, as you said, it's not only communication to it, but it's kind of like the manifestation. 00:12:04:24 - 00:12:29:14 Speaker 2 Yes, totally. I totally agree. I'm not sure if there's a question in there, but I will still respond, which is it's hard and tricky to talk about the Jaguar thing just because I don't I, I struggle with what they have done. And I feel like there's there's a there's some marked missed opportunities there which seem to me to be writ large and something sad, I suppose also about what I would feel quite confident is a misstep. 00:12:29:16 - 00:12:47:23 Speaker 2 But anyway, that's maybe just pushing things a little bit further. I would suppose I'd need to. But you're talking also I think about the sort of the way in which Jaguar to an extent by setting an instance of Volkswagen sort of using that heritage to convey a story and the meaning which is rich and deep and goes back over time and reasserts itself in the contemporary. 00:12:48:00 - 00:13:05:23 Speaker 2 And I think it's something very powerful about. Of course, it won't work in all instances for all brands, not least those without a back catalog that they can easily do that from. But we're seeing much more evidence of mainstream brands recognizing the equity of things they had in the past. And the story that they can use in that to bring it forward to modern context is the challenge, of course, to consist to keep doing. 00:13:05:23 - 00:13:38:23 Speaker 2 So, you know, how many times can you do that? There's also a question mark over the degree to which everybody has appetite for something which has, if you like, a lot of its equity. In the past, it sort of almost frames it is not necessarily is somehow contradicting the idea of being immediately relevant for today. But I think there's many instances of brands that have not yet and yet could and should perhaps go forwards to use the equity of their past, not just by regurgitating it, but also in a way to present themselves as more than something of the moment, but to present themselves as having such a breadth that they're not just a Polaroid 00:13:38:23 - 00:14:06:13 Speaker 2 snap or an Instagram snap, stationery, little snapshot, if you like, of time. But they're actually they're almost like a film. They have a richness and a debt because of the story and the meaning that goes beyond that. So, I mean, I think maybe you and I riffing off each other a bit here as petrolheads or gearheads maybe, But yeah, for sure, there's a real equity there and it's something we are seeing more and more of this a lot of instances and new designs which are in different ways leveraging aspects of, of, of heritage and or of store ification that they have from their brands. 00:14:06:16 - 00:14:07:16 Speaker 2 So fascinating space. 00:14:07:22 - 00:14:22:21 Speaker 1 It's a totally fascinating space and there are lots of places we can go, but I would kind of want to like move us towards the future. But one of the things that, you know, you said at the outset, car design is really kind of the envelope in the materiality and finesses of kind of the the consumer experience of it, not the tech. 00:14:23:02 - 00:14:43:19 Speaker 1 But there is this kind of dynamic in car design specifically, which is it's very technical but is also sophisticated and very emotional as well. I mean, how in car design, like what are some of the unique challenges, I guess, in balancing these seemingly competing and complex parameters? 00:14:43:21 - 00:14:48:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, again, I mean, I'm sure at some point you ask me an easy question. That one is right up there because. 00:14:48:19 - 00:14:50:20 Speaker 1 I doubt it, Sam. 00:14:50:22 - 00:15:11:00 Speaker 2 I mean, there is something fascinating for me as an individual, which is why I guess I love my job, which is that you've got possibly the world's most complex, technically sort of consumer durable. You know, you think of just the sheer number of bits, if you like, the have to go into a car. Clearly that walks over any any other artifact that that one actually spends money on. 00:15:11:02 - 00:15:28:15 Speaker 2 So on one side, clearly you have that, if you like, technical, tangible complexity. But yeah, as you're alluding to as well, you've also got this incredible emotive, layered set of meanings and symbols and status. And for the most part, most people who own a vehicle do actually own something, which is more than it needs to be because of that reason. 00:15:28:15 - 00:16:01:03 Speaker 2 And they will claim perhaps not to. But I don't think it normally takes too long to dissuade people that that's necessarily the case. You know, the way in which people, even if they don't choose to have a very high status item or certainly not, will certainly choose to not have a low status car, shall we say. So yeah, the whole symbolism that the vehicle has, as if you like, the world's most sophisticated consumer, durable, and the way in which this sort of evidence is more about who people are in a more sort of complete manner perhaps than many other things, maybe this people would suggest that architecture or what we wear does that. 00:16:01:03 - 00:16:24:09 Speaker 2 But I would you know, I'm happy to have an argument with them because I think there's so many facets as to what constitutes a vehicle and a modern car design that do that in a more evolved manner than any other discipline. And so much that, of course, is just due to the dollars that are being spent on this craft as space, you know, the amount of money that goes into conceiving a single piece of machinery that we see parked inside the road. 00:16:24:11 - 00:16:43:16 Speaker 2 It's unparalleled. You know, you've got just millions of dollars invested in talent to make that how it is. So the density of talent and that's been renumeration, if you like, to to conceive these things is there is no there's no there's no parallel. So it's a fascinating thing to consume in that respect. 00:16:43:18 - 00:17:09:12 Speaker 1 It's I mean, I've so many things I could could say, but I want to I want to ask quickly as we start moving from the from the emotive to the technical, I mean, there is there is this argument now that, like, you know, our cars are just big computers. And so that you mentioned about UI design like UI, UX, you know, this kind of user interface, user experience, the apps like every car now has a computer in it. 00:17:09:12 - 00:17:32:17 Speaker 1 And frankly, I went from an older car to a, you know, a newer car and I have to say like I liked my older car from a car perspective, I appreciate the technical aspects of this UI, but it's very frustrating. Like as we're going from today into the future, like what is that evolving role of, let's call it digital or technology in car design? 00:17:32:17 - 00:17:34:13 Speaker 1 And how do you account for it? 00:17:34:15 - 00:17:48:08 Speaker 2 Yeah, well, you know, you and I could have a separate conversation about the frustrations of modern in-car attack, but I get this to call things, I guess to sort of respond to your point that if you think of the auspices of the car, it was kind of like a horseless carriage. I mean, that's literally what they were called. 00:17:48:10 - 00:18:07:20 Speaker 2 And I think a lot of the semantics and meaning, an idea of a car actually stems from, if you like, the idea of the horse and the idea of riding a horse and the sort of the associations thereof. And then on the other side, of course, you've perhaps, as we say, got a modern contemporary smartphone and broadly the car sits somewhere on that spectrum and is fundamentally traveling from the horse to the phone. 00:18:07:20 - 00:18:27:10 Speaker 2 And right now, particularly with electric powertrains, but also the things you're alluding to within the vehicle, it's getting much, much closer to the smartphone. And I would put it to you that if you jumped into a car in Shanghai, you would you know, you'd go another level further than the vehicle used to in the states. So there is that sort of migration in what the car actually is, is a technical aspect. 00:18:27:10 - 00:18:57:16 Speaker 2 But along with that, and I think this is one of the most interesting design challenges, is the way in which that shifting the identity of the car. So the actual nature of how we should see and understand a vehicle. And briefly to sort of touch on Jaguar again, Jaguar, if you like, it is that automotive form and to an extent some of the other classic brands like I'm from here, they, if you like, speak to more of the horse, the sports car, the idiom of the romantic idea of a dynamic vehicle traveling through space than they do to the sort of technical element that can enable you to have an amazing experience within the vehicle. 00:18:57:16 - 00:19:17:23 Speaker 2 So there's a challenge there. There's also connects to brand and this movement as to the nature and the identity of what a car is and how that's moved. But just as of the second element of my answer to your question is about how it's used as well and the way that these things at the minute may make our journeys easier or better and occasionally, of course, frustrate us with how we're not able to make something happen. 00:19:18:00 - 00:19:32:03 Speaker 2 But increasingly the vehicle will be used more when it's stationary, not exclusively. There'll be no point in just buying a vehicle and parking up. But actually the value that we get when they're stationary, if it's electric, you know, you'd be strange to sit there for a long time. Your vehicle with an engine running, just looking at the view in a nice spot. 00:19:32:03 - 00:20:00:05 Speaker 2 But if it's electric, that stops being strange. So the way in which the electric vehicle unlocks the use of the vehicle as a third space off of the home of the office really is an interesting one. It's not going to become the central reason that the cars use, but it unlocks a totally new scenario. And then, of course, the UI, the delivery of UX within the vehicle is a new chapter which is quite different to the one that maybe you're experiencing as you're driving along, trying to, you know, make something happen that's not immediately apparent whilst looking at the road at the same time. 00:20:00:05 - 00:20:05:16 Speaker 2 So really interesting shift in the nature, what it is, but also how it will be used. I think. 00:20:05:20 - 00:20:28:14 Speaker 1 It's fascinating. I mean, actually the request is kind of that we're following in a marching time. So you've nicely, Sam, kind of consolidated into one, which is definitely going to be too big a question, but I'm going to try. You touched on a couple of things. You touched on like electric vehicles. And obviously as we move more into EVs and away from combustion engines as well as into hybrids, there are a lot of opportunities. 00:20:28:14 - 00:20:46:06 Speaker 1 I would imagine are opening on the design side. I mean, I just read an article yesterday about Ferrari's like, you know, redesigned V12, which is oval shaped, which then can sit nicely next for battery for a hybrid Ferrari at some point in the future. I don't know. It was it was a press release from from Ferrari but I think about that from a design side. 00:20:46:06 - 00:21:13:03 Speaker 1 Again car designers don't design the engine in this context of this conversation, but you've got to fit the engine in, into the into the box and then the UI and all the rest of it. But obviously there are other opportunities being opened by like autonomous and semi autonomous vehicles. You think about like the driverless trucks, you know, like long haul trucks and things like is a car going to be a car or and you talk about third spaces and things like, is a car going to be a car? 00:21:13:03 - 00:21:28:04 Speaker 1 Is a truck going to be a truck? Is a scooter going to be a scooter or a motorcycle motorcycle? Or like as we move into the future, is electrification and autonomous vehicles opening the way to something completely different than what we currently understand? Car design to be? 00:21:28:06 - 00:21:44:20 Speaker 2 Okay. So the questions will get harder, I think is what you're saying. So that's you you have covered a huge bandwidth. I think that when we looking at what the future is going to be, so many of us have sort of got some sense of the sort of sci fi portrayal of it. And autonomous cars, of course, have been the science fiction for 50, 60 and 70 years. 00:21:45:01 - 00:22:06:13 Speaker 2 And our shortcut of that is that we're on a highway going at some speed and we're all playing Scrabble or something. My understanding of autonomous travel and I'm no technical expert on this, so I need to sort of qualify it with that to some degree. Is that actually this this idea has almost confused expectations and what people are seeking to accomplish with autonomous, because autonomous travel has existed ever since the taxi was invented. 00:22:06:13 - 00:22:22:21 Speaker 2 You know, you're not driving that vehicle. And we think how a taxi is different to our normal car amount, that kind of isn't different really at all. So autonomous actually in many respects is quite a mundane thing, unless we look at the fact that the taxi driver has to charge, be charging a lot of money and actually an autonomous vehicle. 00:22:22:21 - 00:22:40:03 Speaker 2 The distinction with a taxi is that it's cheaper per distance. It's not necessarily, but by but in terms of usage per minute is ostensibly much cheaper. So what that really means is unlocking use scenarios where it's being used at low speed and clearly autonomous technology is work in a way at low speed that they just cannot do reliably at high speed. 00:22:40:09 - 00:22:57:16 Speaker 2 So my view is that it's actually more on the mundane fringes in the immediate and future scenario for autonomous where, you know, you rock up at your destination, you can't find a parking space, but you just abandon the car and let it just very slowly sort itself out. So you got sort of small stuff like that, which actually won't rock everybody's lives. 00:22:57:21 - 00:23:10:18 Speaker 2 But when they come in, you'll be like, you know, that's good to have. I don't have a vehicle without that in the future, but it's not going to actually blow your mind and you won't be playing Scrabble to 80 miles an hour on a motorway. So I think that is a bit of a misnomer in some respects. 00:23:10:23 - 00:23:32:14 Speaker 2 We worked on a program with Volvo, we did the 360 CE concept and this idea, we can design them. They did that and that was an idea which was to instead of taking short haul flights, which are obviously environmentally the worst form of flight you can do, you get into a vehicle at bedtime, you go to sleep. It would drive very slowly through the night when street streets are not busy, when electricity is readily available, and they would get you to your destination. 00:23:32:14 - 00:23:42:06 Speaker 2 So the coupling of the technology to a use scenario, I feel like is the sort of richest driver of design innovation. And that might be a moderately good example of how that could be. 00:23:42:08 - 00:24:13:03 Speaker 1 I love that as an example. And it brings us back to this third space concept. I mean, I mean, we're going to use the Volkswagen van again, again, this Californian that they're calling it, you know, which has this pop tent and all the rest of it, But there is some kind of interesting socio cultural postpandemic, perhaps trend that, you know, the love of the outdoors, the desire to be with family, like what's happening in this space for cars and is this going to stick or is this like a moment. 00:24:13:05 - 00:24:27:01 Speaker 2 I think it's a really interesting one later, and it's kind of fascinating for me to hear you speak it back to me. It's something we've been held out to clients for three or four years. These days, if you're out in on the streets, you'll see people running. If you're out in the streets, 50, 60 years ago, something was running on the street. 00:24:27:01 - 00:24:47:03 Speaker 2 You know, that's an odd sight. Fundamentally, as people we're spending much more time outdoors and doing relatively active pursuits, sightings taking off everywhere, and these sort of groundswell of social cultural trends, not just in the states or Europe, it's also in China. They're perhaps younger on this outdoor active, certainly countryside bandwagon, but they're jumping on it quite hard. 00:24:47:05 - 00:25:03:15 Speaker 2 And we are seeing evidence of, you know, we all know the world is being taken over by the crossover and the SUV and it's not. And one of the reasons and the several but one of the reasons of that is that the image it portrays is that we are people who engage in outdoor active pursuits to some degree, that we have an affiliation for the countryside. 00:25:03:15 - 00:25:20:00 Speaker 2 It may be that we cans and at that as an identity is more appealing than the sort of large on a business executive sedan, which you associate with the city perhaps, which is maybe what the status symbol would have been 20, 30 years ago. So you've actually got an automotive design trend which aligns with what you're talking about. 00:25:20:02 - 00:25:42:07 Speaker 2 I think this is going to extend. You asked about third place. I think there's so many opportunities as well for instead of the vehicle just taking to the countryside and taking your canoes or a mountain bikes there, then you get out of the vehicle and you do do your thing. I think third space in the context you're talking about means the vehicle gets its destination and then becomes part of that experience that it's you know, it's that base that you sleep in, possibly setting the point that you sort of rest and recuperate some degree. 00:25:42:07 - 00:25:58:18 Speaker 2 You get changed. It's a place to share space if you're in the UK to stay out of the rain, do you know what I mean? So I think the opportunity for vehicles to play a slightly greater role in that trend space you're identifying is really marked and I would generally suggest that not many brands are really running towards that in the way that they could do that. 00:25:58:18 - 00:26:17:18 Speaker 2 Some real opportunities there that we're seeing quite a lot of people not fully recognizing it is perhaps because it's not quite as grand as the extreme sports side and the sort of extremely macho off road sides that sort of like is a center of the identity of these brands. That is really important. I think it's really a good one that you held up. 00:26:17:20 - 00:26:37:03 Speaker 1 Is fascinating to me because there's so much there. And I mean, you think about the rugged I just the rugged like Jeep, for instance, or Range Rover or Land Cruiser or any of these kinds of like hardcore, you know, outdoor vehicles. And you see the rise of the SUV even in Europe, which, of course, if they're not electric, they're using a lot more gas. 00:26:37:03 - 00:26:53:17 Speaker 1 And if they are electric, I use a lot more electricity because they're bigger and bolder. So that that the hypocrisy in some ways of all of us, like, you know, buying these SUVs that are in fact destroying the nature that we claim to enjoy in them. But that's that's a common sin for a different day as we kind of come up on time. 00:26:53:17 - 00:27:13:19 Speaker 1 The one thing we haven't had a chance to touch on yet, before I get into our final questions, is the role of AI in car design. And I'm curious, and maybe it's in car design because of UI, or maybe it's in car design because we're replacing designers. But like, how do you see AI coming in to car design and where do you think it's going to be going? 00:27:13:21 - 00:27:32:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, you've almost alluded to the two answers there at least, which is helpful. Perhaps it's both within the design process. It is there really very much as an augmentative tool. It's not one you know, I think people have used this or flippant expression of that car design by computer, which I think everybody listening to this podcast will know is not the case. 00:27:32:00 - 00:27:51:22 Speaker 2 You know, the design community knows that these are tools. And I think, you know, the informed world out there knows that too. But there is this expression has I been inside my computer? And maybe that expression is battery. Has that has that been designed by AI? And of course, it will play a role. But fundamentally, it's not going to take away the the core creative intent and the way we see it being used. 00:27:51:22 - 00:28:13:15 Speaker 2 And we're not this is not our specialist area of expertise is, if you like, almost as a filler in the middle of the conversation. You've got the creative ideas that are coming from designers to the left and the right peripherally. You've got some things riffing off that, which will, if you like, give you a bit of filler, give you a few alternatives at a very easy, a fundamentally low cost and very quick way to give you a more complete and full picture. 00:28:13:17 - 00:28:32:20 Speaker 2 So it's helping, but it's not actually in the middle of the conversation with regard to, you know, the creation of new things in the automotive design space. But then also you alluded to how it's coming to car. And yes, it is. We're seeing it a step behind what we're seeing in the best wearables, but it's going to come in simplistically in the form that we've got already used to serving those people. 00:28:32:20 - 00:28:51:00 Speaker 2 The modern car screen, which will have apps on it, very much like your phone, very much like a iPad that's now in the car. What we will increasingly see is a reduction in the way in which we have to access separate apps, because I will work across the different systems. So it's something we're already seeing in the consumer tech space and it's coming through to automotive. 00:28:51:04 - 00:29:00:16 Speaker 2 There is clearly a lot of opportunity to go further because within the car, back to your brand point, there's the curation of how that's done in a way that's distinct for that vehicle and that brand and that. 00:29:00:16 - 00:29:07:07 Speaker 1 Hopefully safer for the driver because that's the that's part of my beef, right? I mean, that's that's a big opportunity for safety. It seems to. 00:29:07:09 - 00:29:10:09 Speaker 2 Yes. Should be looking the right. 00:29:10:11 - 00:29:36:20 Speaker 1 That ideally so Sam we're we're I mean I as I as we knew the geek in me is totally inspired but we're almost at time so I'm going to throw out the last two questions. The first of these last two questions is for listeners and viewers who are interested in learning more about car design in general, are there one or two iconic references that you would point them to? 00:29:36:22 - 00:29:52:20 Speaker 2 You know, if you go to a bookshop and you look at the design section, it's not the biggest section. You're going to the car section, it's not the biggest section of the car. That section doesn't exist. There's no overlap. So it's kind of tricky to just get a book down as the width. Well, yeah, you know, you will find them, but they are thin on the ground now. 00:29:52:22 - 00:30:16:17 Speaker 2 You will find online, of course, a thing called car design news. A long time ago that was part of what I did, and that is the default point of entry for most of the community to find something out and or go from that. So that would be the obvious place within that empire, which it is now, albeit a small one, is called Design Review, and that is a dedicated publication and yeah, that's really strong. 00:30:16:17 - 00:30:26:12 Speaker 2 It's an annual thing, but there's a little bit more depth, it's a bit more, shall we say, broadsheet to maybe use an English term than tabloid. So yeah, those would be two places I would hold up. 00:30:26:14 - 00:30:48:11 Speaker 1 That's awesome. I love that. And because no one can get a hold of except for the muckety muck that these big car companies can get a hold of. You are all car design research trend report which I got a sneak peek at, which was pretty amazing. Last question. I mean I think about you know your work stems from this future perspective and really through the lens of the customer. 00:30:48:13 - 00:31:08:12 Speaker 1 And we've talked a lot about brand, but also the technical. There's this piece of like what will consumers want in five, ten, 50 or 100 years in terms of the car design. But what is your personal greatest hope for the future of car design and let's call it 25 years in 2050? 00:31:08:14 - 00:31:35:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, so the way you phrased it and I'm not in any position trying to correct or adjust that, but my inference was that car design is reactive to what customers want, and it's my firm view that car design should not always be that, that it should actually seek to hold something up, which makes sense and that people come to it, that in other words, it's in a position, as I think maybe all disciplines of design are, is to land something which makes sense, which hasn't happened before, which people wouldn't ever have known. 00:31:35:23 - 00:32:02:02 Speaker 2 They want it because it's literally box fresh. So doing something in that realm is always what gets me out of bed. And I suppose on a sort of slightly mony whingeing level, I would love to work with more clients who are interested in making something that's better, not just different. And I have a gentle, nagging concern that with the speed of development, the, the sort of reduced profitability of all sorts of things as well, people are really running fast and it seems to be increasingly about can we do something quickly? 00:32:02:02 - 00:32:27:08 Speaker 2 Can we do something different, less about purpose, less about making things a better, different world? So in a broad brushstroke, what I would like to see, I would love to see would be some proper step, big changes for something which is creative, which is clearly an attractive and amazing and aspirational and fun thing, but also that actually makes a difference and which we didn't see coming and it would be truly useful and as a consequence of course a real commercial hit. 00:32:27:10 - 00:32:32:10 Speaker 2 So that's, that's the exciting thing for me. In the end, it rather generally they say. 00:32:32:12 - 00:32:43:08 Speaker 1 Sam Livingstone In principle director at Car Design Research in Cambridge, UK. Thank you so much for this conversation that I can't wait to continue meeting. 00:32:43:09 - 00:32:46:04 Speaker 2 Lisa Thank you very much. Great. Stay with you. 00:32:46:06 - 00:33:02:06 Speaker 1 For all of our viewers and listeners. Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of Future of X, Y, Z. If you don't already subscribe, be sure to do so and be sure to leave us a five star review for this or other episodes wherever you get your favorite podcast, because that's how people find us. Thank you. 00:33:02:06 - 00:33:06:05 Speaker 1 We will see you again in two weeks. And Sam, thank you again for your time. 00:33:06:07 - 00:33:07:19 Speaker 2 Thanks, Lisa.