Latest / Coaches Rising / 253 - Gregg Henriques: A Unified Theory of Psychology

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253 - Gregg Henriques: A Unified Theory of Psychology · Coaches Rising

• 0:01
  [UNKNOWN]: music playing
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  [SPEAKER_04]: Welcome back to the Coaches Rising podcast.
• 0:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Today I'm joined by Greg and Recaze.
• 0:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: This apologies Greg is one that's been set in the vault for a little while and Greg is going to let loose and share all about his new unified theory of psychology.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's it's beautiful.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Greg is a is a deep
• 0:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: and broad thinker who is revolutionizing the field of psychology and pointing out many of the faults within the field and how we can rectify those to create this new unified theory and we'll talk about what that affords well what actually does happen when we have a unified theory of psychology so of course this is a very relevant conversation for those of us who are coaches and doing
• 1:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: uh, transmission or work with clients.
• 1:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: So as I mentioned, Greg is the creator of the unified theory of psychology.
• 1:16
  [SPEAKER_04]: He's developed a highly respected blog on psychology today called Theory of Knowledge, which offers regular posts on a wide variety of topics including updates to his unified theory.
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  [SPEAKER_04]: He's also a full professor and core faculty member at James Madison University's combined integrated clinical and school psychology doctoral program.
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: All right, let's dive in.
• 1:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Here's the podcast with Greg and Reakers.
• 1:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Greg, wonderful to be with you today.
• 1:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm looking forward to getting stuck into your work.
• 1:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Really beautiful work and broad in its scope.
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_04]: And so, yeah, I think we've got a lot to talk about, particularly how it will apply to coaching as well.
• 2:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you?
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, absolutely.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thank you.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to be here.
• 2:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate your whole coach's rising perspective.
• 2:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, now I'm really excited to make the connection to you.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Learn from you because my vision right now is, yeah, I built sort of a knowledge system as a lot of implications for how we live in the world, how we educate ourselves, how we relate to nature, to technology, to each other.
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And educating and coaching people into that is sort of the next phase of life that I'm in.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to be looking to folks like yourself and another people who have that sense and building bridges is where I'm at right now.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's a great opportunity to be here.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, great.
• 2:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I'm excited about our future collaborations and mutual support and stuff like that.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: Wonderful.
• 2:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: And let me begin by asking you then give something you write about is the problem of psychology.
• 2:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's a really nice way to enter into your work.
• 2:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: So maybe that's a simple question.
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  [SPEAKER_04]: Like, could you tell us what is the problem of psychology?
• 3:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: Great.
• 3:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really appreciate you asking me that because, well, one of the things I want to shout out from a mountain top is this issue.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really wish that people would take a moment, but actually maybe right now if you're listening to take a moment, take a deep breath and say, hey, what are the real problems of understanding that we have in the world?
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 3:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you know anything about physics,
• 3:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll know, hey, you know, there was a revolution in modern physics.
• 3:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We thought Newton had to really solve a lot of problems.
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden in the twentieth century, we realized that's not right.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you go into the really small and you get quantum mechanics.
• 3:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You go into the really large and get general relativity and many physicists are continue to this day struggle with what they call a theory of everything.
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my gosh, there's a huge problem in physics, right?
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: They don't know how quantum mechanics and the way it describes the world.
• 3:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: fits with general relativity, so we'll unify physics.
• 3:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are movies on this, Stephen Hawking, and has a movie that they are about everything.
• 4:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone in educated culture is like, oh my gosh, you know, I know that that's a real problem.
• 4:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm here to tell you, when I try to tell everybody, there's a bigger problem that nobody even talks about.
• 4:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's called the problem of psychology.
• 4:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's as well documented, and it says clear,
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  [SPEAKER_00]: as a problem, and it carries a lot more implications.
• 4:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's face it, folks.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I don't know about you.
• 4:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am not a master or say mathematics of string theory, okay?
• 4:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if they actually figure out kind of the quantum mechanics general relativity, they'll be like, hey, it actually does fit together.
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: We kind of knew this, but at the technical arcane level, we now figured out, is your life a lot different, Joel?
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, hey, that's cool.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, not to those guys.
• 4:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But here's the issue with the problem of psychology, okay?
• 4:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we develop science, five hundred plus years ago, and what do we mean by that?
• 4:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, science shifted the way we try to know about the world, okay?
• 5:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And without getting into it, it shifted into what I call the modern empirical natural science perspective, which is the idea that we could take an observer view and start measuring behavior and develop laws and formulas for that.
• 5:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course this gives us Newtonian.
• 5:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: physics, right?
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Newtonian physicist is the super powerful model.
• 5:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And philosophically, we got kind of clear.
• 5:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, the matter world is operating this particular way.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, what about God and raised all sorts of different questions?
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we built a really cool model of the world from things like atoms down into particles, up into molecules.
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then across scale, all the way up to firms like stars and galaxies, and the physics came together pretty tightly, I just mentioned not all the way.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: We got quantum mechanics, general activity, Newtonian mechanics.
• 5:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We then get chemistry coming along and the periodic table, the elements that maps pretty good.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a structure of matter.
• 5:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: We then get biology, right?
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's called cell theory at the time?
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: People are like, well, of course, it's just facts.
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, they didn't know that all life was made up of cells.
• 6:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a theory.
• 6:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: They found that.
• 6:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, then you get ultimately genes and DNA, you get natural selection.
• 6:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And everybody knows that physics is about the science, that energy and matter, that notice the things in the world.
• 6:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Energy matter on the spacetime grid, that's what the science of physics is about.
• 6:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then chemistry, well, it's actually the structure of matter, astronomy or cosmology, the structure of the universe at large, are science and geology?
• 6:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Notice you know what those things are about in the world, right?
• 6:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Biology, hey, that's about cells and genes and how natural selection gives us the living world, biology is the science of life, the things in the world.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Neuroscience, that's about the science of your neurons.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Notice a pattern here, there's a correspondence between the sciences and the things in the world that they're about.
• 7:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we've gone from physics all the way up to neuroscience and that correspondence is pretty tight and that means all the scientists agree, all neuroscientists agree that yeah, we're about the nervous system in the brain.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's not hard.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what happens, Joel?
• 7:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know what's going to happen, Joel?
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go from biology and to neuroscience.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we're going to do this other thing.
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now we're going to go to psychology.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: My home.
• 7:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I spent my entire life.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we were going to say, well, what is psychology about in the world?
• 7:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you want to know what?
• 7:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's absolute consensus that we don't know what we mean.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, fascinating.
• 7:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 7:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's absolute consensus.
• 7:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like there's a historical documented, consensual agreement in my field that we don't know what we mean and Joel that we'll never know what we mean.
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's the consensus in my field.
• 8:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: And how come they think we'll never know?
• 8:02
  [SPEAKER_04]: We don't, how come the consensus as we don't know?
• 8:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: Because, I mean, how can we have in God consensus, basically?
• 8:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: A few questions out there.
• 8:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Before we said that, let's just, let's just everybody take one moment.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's my, just sit with that fact.
• 8:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why does science change at psychology?
• 8:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how would it be that we would go from a science to wherever there's obviously?
• 8:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Science is about shit in the world we want to understand.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you climb up the normal natural sciences.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: That's by the way, when the natural sciences, psychology and other science, what their act or a soft science, what they mean is they don't know what they're talking about.
• 8:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 8:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the really the criticism.
• 8:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's right.
• 8:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you get into the field, you actually realize that's right.
• 8:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then my field doesn't let you talk about this fact, even though it's documented.
• 8:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I just want everybody to know that we know this to be the case.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And other unlike physics, which tries to scream from the mountain tops, we should know what we're talking about in quantum mechanics.
• 9:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we want to tell everybody, it's a dirty little secret in my field that we bury and pretend it doesn't exist because we're embarrassed because we have physics envy.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And our job is to try to, what we try to do is we're a science over here, Joel.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we deny and hide the fact that we really have a hard problem with that.
• 9:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's that's what I want everybody.
• 9:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's with you.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you then realize, hey, Joel, do your feelings matter?
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  [SPEAKER_00]: Do your mind matter to you?
• 9:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Does the way your mind fits in the world?
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Does that matter to you on a daily life?
• 9:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, yeah, like actually, if we knew what psychology was Joel, it would be a lot more important to you than if we saw the theory of everything at the level quantum mechanics, your life's not going to change.
• 9:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you actually figure out what you are as a beam in the world scientifically, that's gonna change you.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 9:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the problems likeology, but much more relevant, much more important to our everyday lives and unbelievably hidden.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I, and I still to this day, I can't, when I discovered it, and then when I realized it, and I tried to tell people about it, and I realized everybody individually nods along with me, and collectively we can't seem, so maybe you can coach me, and how do we, how do we present our purpose and the possibilities and relationship to this fact?
• 10:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I've been invited.
• 10:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk to them.
• 10:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I just want, when I try to get on these things, I really want, if I'm going to let take all message, just sit with that weirdness.
• 10:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, that's my goal.
• 10:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Get folks sick with the weirdest and hopefully open up their curiosity and opening up the meaning of what that would be.
• 10:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of my real purposes.
• 10:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's go back and say, all right, well, what are you talking about right now?
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that really the case?
• 10:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, you can just go to the history.
• 10:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not really that complicated.
• 10:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: You shut to spend some time looking at it and I can summarize it.
• 10:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what happens is this science comes along.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it basically adopts this exterior perspective and gets a map of matter in the world.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's measuring matter in the world from a behavioral perspective.
• 11:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then psychologists, the early psychologists in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: and sensory changes.
• 11:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: When do you notice a difference in how much impact do I need to make out here to make you notice what's called a just noticeable difference?
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they start, and they get some really cool interesting what are called psychophysical laws, some of the best stuff that we do at the level of grounded in science, and to the state you have relevant.
• 11:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: They do some psychophysical laws.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: But here's an immediate problem with psychology faces.
• 11:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Most everyone agrees and we'll get to why there's all this disagreement.
• 12:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: At some level, psychology's got to take into consideration the ship behind your eyes as you experience it.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, science gets built as an observing behavior mechanism.
• 12:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's its language in its frame.
• 12:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that immediately presents something that's quite difficult when we say my subject matter is what you're observing behind your eyes.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: You want to know why?
• 12:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You probably discovered this as a kid.
• 12:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't see what's behind your eyes.
• 12:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Only you see.
• 12:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever had that conversation where like, hey, is the red that I see the red that you see?
• 12:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
• 12:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
• 12:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how do what I know?
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can tell me about it.
• 12:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I can't see your first person's subjective experience of being in the world.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can't see that.
• 12:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this weird epistemological, like how do you know?
• 12:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Problem.
• 12:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: is present in psychology, is like our subject matter at whatever you define it as at some level, you want to be touching, what is it like behind your eyes?
• 13:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: The methods, I'm trying, and modern psychology, definition of psychology, I use modern institutional psychology, which is we have to try to connect it to science, natural science, that's its task.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 13:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: You go back and say, well, psychology is about philosophy and about mind.
• 13:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, okay, well, that's a different kind of psychology.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: But really, the institutional psychology that I'm talking about is the psychology tries to jam itself into the context of modern science.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 13:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the institutional psychology starts modern and the institutional psychology.
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, you start trying to do observation of the observing part and you get serious problems.
• 13:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 13:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what happens is the first systematic approach to this builds off of what's called psychophysics and builds into an interspectionist model.
• 13:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Wilhelm Vunt.
• 13:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Wilhelm Vunt has a German brilliant German thinker who found psychology in eighteen seventy nine.
• 14:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, finds it as a lab.
• 14:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: He finds it as a journal.
• 14:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: He finds it as an institution.
• 14:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what he does is he thinks about psychology pretty much in a way that I think would be the most common sense of ways.
• 14:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's just ship behind your eyes.
• 14:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you see Phil here, experience the world?
• 14:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But he can't see it, but he wants to be scientific.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what he does is he trains you, he trains your researchers actually become expert introspectionous.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I train you to say, what do you see?
• 14:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we trains a bunch of people that are now looking at their own minds and reporting on them.
• 14:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the first systematic approach to like all of the introspectionist methods where I'm going to look at my own meaner subjective self-report on it and try to get an analysis of this.
• 14:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this ultimately the name that especially in America will not want doesn't call it this, but as student goes from there and comes to American Columbia University and builds structuralism.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So structuralism is the idea, what are the bits of structure, the qualia, we would call them now, that go into constituting your subjective experience.
• 15:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: At one time, the structuralist undertitioner identified forty-four different thousand different kinds of qualia.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they're trying to get a forty-four thousand.
• 15:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so like, okay, there's the kind of color here, there's a kind of taste here, there's a kind of, and these are seen as the little qualia bits that go into making up perception, okay?
• 15:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: You probably not heard of that, it's not a super successful endeavor at the time, though, in the nineteen tens, this is the major in America, Columbia, Titchner is an unbelievably influential figure.
• 15:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so structuralism, the subject matter for structuralism is human consciousness reflected on by an observer looking at their own
• 15:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: conscious system.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the definition of it.
• 15:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in American psychologist Adharber, you have the founder of American psychology, got by named William James, who spoke the philosopher, and he's definitely concerned with consciousness.
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: But he's concerned with the functional effects that consciousness have in the world in general.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he characterizes then functionalism as essentially a way animals and humans demonstrate functional awareness and responsibility in the world.
• 16:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he noted that, hey, unlike, he's got a famous little passage where he says, hey, you can take on iron magnet and stick it between a piece of paper and the iron magnets just stick there.
• 16:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you take a frog and it's trying to get to the top and you block it, it swims around it.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It moves towards something it seems.
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Likewise, if you take Romeo and Juliet and you put a fence between them, Romeo climbs the fence.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't just stick his lips up against the fence and hope to be next to Juliet that way.
• 17:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, the functional adaptivity of animals and humans is the way they adjust to the environment to seemingly get to certain goal states.
• 17:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's functionalism and it's mental life that's like, hey, and by the way, this is going to be closest to what the unified theory actually embraces.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: But functionalism is this mental life of both animals and human.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: which he believes which James believes is mediated by consciousness.
• 17:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so for James consciousness is the mediating structure that affords.
• 17:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you get structuralism just what is it?
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Functionalism then the mediating structure that we can then see in terms of the ways animals adapt and respond.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you get behaviorism.
• 17:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Behaviorism says all of the stuff about consciousness is woo, woo.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows about consciousness?
• 17:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't fit into the mechanisms or the methods of science.
• 17:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't fit, they say.
• 18:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: What fits is the experimental methodology of a stimulus and response.
• 18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the chaining of mechanism of the causal relationship between stimulus and response.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what really physics is about.
• 18:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We know, and this is Newtonian-esque type ideas.
• 18:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, Newton is going to be blown out of the water about ten years.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is nineteen ten.
• 18:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Watson, nineteen thirteen is this behavioral manifesto.
• 18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know anything about Einstein.
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know anything about quantum mechanics.
• 18:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's coming.
• 18:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but he just thinks it's a chain of reflexes and our task is experimentally connect the chain of reflexes.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: So he learns about Ivan Pavlov and the dogs and the salivating he may have heard of the bell.
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The bell causes salivation and there's just a pairing of reflexes.
• 18:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And all we are is a complex association of pairing of reflexes and the science of psychology has nothing to do with consciousness.
• 18:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: anything mental, it's just this analysis of the relationship of stimulus response behavior that's experimentally manipulated.
• 19:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's both the methods of science and physicalism, which we know really is the story of the world.
• 19:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everything's really physical.
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, so, ontology of physicalism attached to a mechanistic analysis, I mean, a methodological analysis of that physicalism through experimental stimulus response.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's called behaviorism, and it completely rejects anything that's mental and it's consciousness in particular.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's behaviors.
• 19:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then this other guy is coming along in Vienna, okay?
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he's working first actually with neuroscience of crabs and lobsters interestingly.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he knows his activation and inhibition, but he needs to also make a living.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: He knows this about hypnosis.
• 19:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then he discovers something really weird that, oh my God, that their underneath our self-conscious justifications, they're all these forces of activation and inhibition.
• 19:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I'm talking about Sigmund Freud,
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: and segment Freud realizes that on top of our self-conscious justified is an unconscious driving system of activation inhibition, the libidinal forces.
• 20:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the real way to understand psychology and all the problems that manifest and the way to slow them is through psychoanalysis, which is the analysis of the dynamic unconscious.
• 20:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now it's the consciousness beneath humans that really is over interested in and methods for addressing that.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I could go on here.
• 20:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: But these are the four dominant approaches.
• 20:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are others, methods-based approaches, other conceptions of what mind is.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Indeed, we're going to get one when we get to the cognitive revolution later, whether what really interested is the mind as a neuro-information processing device.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what you get is you get an infinite number of models
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, that then manifests itself historically in what Levi-Gotsky, great Russians, I call it.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Levi-Gotsky calls, wait for it.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: The crisis.
• 21:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: The crisis in psychology is what I'm just reporting to, in linting, twenty-seven, loves like, hey folks, even lay people can point this out to us, okay?
• 21:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, no disrespect to lay people, but even lay people can tell you that a stimulus response, a conscious experience reported on by somebody, a functional awareness of responsibility of animals and humans, an unconscious force, a relative to conscious rationalization, and dot dot dot.
• 21:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: are different things in the world.
• 21:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: A different thing in the world.
• 21:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And not the same thing in the world.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yet what we have are different psychological paradigm, schools of thought that are grabbing these very different things and trying to claim this is what psychology is.
• 21:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the crisis manifests itself.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the conclusion is you will never solve the crisis.
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the issue.
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so they said, you'll never saw this.
• 22:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what we need to do is we need to embrace the plurality of perspectives because there isn't any unity.
• 22:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then apply the methods of science through the plurality of perspectives.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 22:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: So then what you get is you get modern academic psychology, which is the science of behavior, which by the way behavior is the lensing structure and the method structure that we use.
• 22:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: That frames the methods of mental process, which is whatever the researcher says and whatever school of thought they're coming through as how they define mental processes will never define mental processes scientifically, but each school of thought will define and will let a thousand flowers bloom and all of that diversity will give us the richness of psychology
• 22:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the richest of psychology will be the application of scientific methods for a multiplicity of different schools that give us a plurality of what mental processes and causation might be.
• 22:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we will celebrate that diversity.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I let's leave.
• 23:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: And what is the problem with that?
• 23:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: Because I mean, people listing might be like, oh, OK, well, that's the best we're going to get.
• 23:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like, can we not go with that?
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is that closed down?
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay.
• 23:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So at one level, it depends.
• 23:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're thinking about art, if you're thinking about science, if you think about life, a wonderful multiplicity plurality of views is potentially great.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're thinking about science, okay?
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're basically, if you're thinking about knowledge, fundamentally, actually, John Vivek, you just gave a really nice talk at a conciliance conference that I was at.
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, what knowledge fundamentally is, is the polarity between a generalizing architecture and diversification in right relation to give you an overarching frame that then affords clarity about difference.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And indeed, this is really what all the physics, why are they searching for a unified theory in physics?
• 23:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because ultimately, they want the generalizable frame that then jumps back into the differentiation.
• 24:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the absence of that generalizing frame means you have chaotic uncertainty.
• 24:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's why all the great theories.
• 24:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you start with Newton.
• 24:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Before Newton, most physicists look at the science of physics before Newton, it's like pretty much bullshit.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: The reason is Newton consolidated across previously disparate efforts to see the generalities and then through his theories could explain a lot of the difference.
• 24:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and not made a lot of innovation possible that because it's like you have the same language.
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now all of a sudden you have these differential aspects on the same language that if all you have is difference.
• 24:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, let's put it this, so I could, I say this creates the sandcastle problem.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now what psychology basically did is what we do is we build unbelievably elaborate sandcastles in the terms of our method.
• 24:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, a sandcastle, you go out there, it's a beautiful thing, you look at that, that's really cool.
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: But sandcastles don't build on each other.
• 25:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: The tie comes in, they wash them out and then you build a whole another sandcastle.
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now sandcastles can be beautiful art, but sandcastles don't lead to cumulative knowledge.
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so what we have set up in psychology is a worshiping of the methods to build sandcastles.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you can't connect the sand castles together because there's no cramed ground that allows you to know whether or not you're building off of something.
• 25:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you an example.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So grit, have you heard a grit?
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: No?
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 25:33
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to let that go.
• 25:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll let that go.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 25:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, about you got to have grit.
• 25:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can actually understand kind of what it is that's going on.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you interpret losses?
• 25:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you interpret failures?
• 25:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you able to bounce back?
• 25:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 25:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you able to see what comes from you relative to what comes to the environment, adjust to it accordingly, so you have an adaptive structure being in the world?
• 25:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: If so, you have resilient grit.
• 25:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, do you know that Julian Rodder back in the nineteen fifties developed the concept of the internal versus external locus of control?
• 26:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, which basically said, hey, what Julian Rodderno says to people who could adaptively identify what was controlling them and what they could control and differentiate between the two had a lot better health outcomes, had a lot better mental health than those who saw essential and external controlling factors on them.
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when interpret the world is saying, this is just who I am.
• 26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now I'll ask laypeople.
• 26:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you cumulatively and differentiate relate?
• 26:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Rodder's internal locus of control concepts, which are not exactly the same, but at the same time, obviously overlap quite a bit.
• 26:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: With grit, like when do you know whether or not you're like, okay, I'm building off of Rodder.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, Angela Duckworth places grit in right relationship to Rodder, because Rodder was here.
• 26:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's not the way it works.
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Rodder built a sand castle of internal locus of control.
• 27:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lashed him, washed out.
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Angela Duckworth built the sand castle of grit.
• 27:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to wash in and wash out.
• 27:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: How are we going to know what we're going to build off of what other the core insights and the answer is you don't.
• 27:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just look at the field that I mean, it's just a series of what what's the latest research trying needs.
• 27:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the latest sandcastle.
• 27:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The system is not generating cumulative knowledge.
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's just as specializing another method to generate another sandcastle for us all to get excited and say the newest research findings say if you want overcome procrastination do this if you want
• 27:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, it's just, it's one frame in an ocean.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And while you grab a hold of that frame in the ocean, as soon as that tide comes in, it's gonna wash out and then you're gonna get another frame in another frame and then not gonna be tied together.
• 27:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And not gonna give us a cumulative ground of understanding where we know what's the general and what is the novel differentiation in relation.
• 28:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, it's just novel differentiation.
• 28:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 28:11
  [SPEAKER_04]: And perhaps a lot of repetition taking place.
• 28:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: We packaging of ideas in new shiny language.
• 28:18
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 28:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, thank you.
• 28:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Great description of the field.
• 28:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: What do we do, Greg?
• 28:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you're going to tell us now.
• 28:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so bottom line is, yeah.
• 28:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now basically,
• 28:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, is there a way fundamentally?
• 28:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a way to say, what in the world psychology fundamentally is about?
• 28:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: That becomes a motion.
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it can you do that in a way that then organizes the big picture theories, understands what their key insights are, and then turn them from the noise that they're currently playing as differentiated schools of thought into music.
• 28:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the key question.
• 28:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you can have a generalizing frame with the differentiation placed in a complexified relation.
• 29:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Meaning it's like, oh, that's what Freud was saying.
• 29:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what Skinner was saying.
• 29:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what Karl Rogers was saying.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what Aaron Beck was saying.
• 29:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I can, there's no inconsistency here.
• 29:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can pull that.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the question.
• 29:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what the unified theory of psychology, which is the first really major project that then ultimately evolves into what's called Utahc.
• 29:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm the founder of.
• 29:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Utahc's the unified theory of knowledge, really knowledge about reality.
• 29:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I figured out, ultimately, at the epicenter of this, is how do we know about reality?
• 29:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what I discovered, and you can see this, if you remember I talked about the promise psychology, of course.
• 29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: This block, the one I just wrote, is called a new synthesis for solving the problem of psychology and the subtitles addressing the enlightenment gap.
• 29:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I've been in psychology mostly, but I started to remember with science.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So science gets this epistemology meaning this method.
• 30:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it gets this ontology that says, oh, basically it's this matter stuff that's bouncing around.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the initial.
• 30:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what happens was as that emerges, it's becomes very, very difficult to place mind in relationship to matter in terms of a philosophical world view understanding.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 30:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this is we can see this on my body problem, the mystery of consciousness, all those other stuff you can actually see.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a huge gap between physics and consciousness in our basic scientific understanding.
• 30:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 30:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would also argue there's a gap between what scientific knowledge is and how it relates to social and subjective knowledge.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then indeed the modernist view, which is okay, you can factor everything out and develop pristine observation that doesn't change the world.
• 30:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: The postmodern view is no, its science is another system of justification like any other.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 30:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the Enlightenment cap says, we do not have a synthetic philosophy that allows us to zoom out, tell you right relation of matter to mind, and how scientific knowledge functions to map the world in a somewhat objective way, but is developed by a bunch of subjective inter-subjective human beings.
• 31:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: that are biased and situated in the world.
• 31:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So how is that both true?
• 31:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we don't have frames that enable us to see that reality.
• 31:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have consensus in philosophy that say, hey, yeah, this is how you make sense of shit.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, much like the problem of psychology, you get philosophy off.
• 31:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, go to philosophy of mind if you want another shit show of confusion.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those guys are, I mean, brilliant guys, but just like the science of psychology, that thing is completely chaotic.
• 31:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we don't know philosophy of mine.
• 31:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know the science nature of reality relation.
• 31:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You talk unified their knowledge about reality says actually we can.
• 31:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's that's good news.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually, you know, there is a coherency to be found in these great questions.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then once you get the coherency, it's like, wow, the world, and this is why it's rolling over coaching.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, does the world look different?
• 32:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, does the world look different?
• 32:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a great, it's a beautiful thing.
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a very happy, you know, lucky camper to be able to see the world this way.
• 32:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I hope to figure out how to help other people and a few other people can see the world this way.
• 32:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not talking like any of some sort of weird culture.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm simply saying when you tweak the world and put fixture lenses,
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, when you fix your lenses and then learn to see the world, you like, oh, that's where people were confused.
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now I can see clearly if anybody's had a smudge on their glasses.
• 32:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: They know how they pick it up.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, that's good.
• 32:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: That is.
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what that word is.
• 32:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is simple as that at the level of concept.
• 32:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, so let's now shift.
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 32:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's these are the problems in lightning gap promise psychology.
• 32:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you got by, well, how do we actually solve this thing, right?
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, how do can you cohere?
• 32:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Can you cohere things for us in terms of, yeah, exactly, solve that.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so here's what I like you to do, like to, okay, so remember we have, oh, there's matter, there's the physical and the mental, there's the objective, there's the subjective, there's these, we have these do, the enlightenment, both at the level of epistemology, meaning how we know, and at the level of ontology, gave us these dualities.
• 33:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even as it told us the world is monistic, meaning the world's one world, there's no disrespect.
• 33:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: But from a scientific perspective, no supernatural God hanging out there that's really problematic.
• 33:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's one world basically science says it's material.
• 33:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you have this thing called mind, and you get essentially matter versus mind, objective versus subjective.
• 33:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how to put that shit together.
• 33:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Essentially, what get?
• 33:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I'd like you to do.
• 33:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like you take a second, find yourself situated in the world.
• 33:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 33:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your situation in the world is your unique epistemological portal.
• 33:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It is the way you know about the world, the inside out.
• 34:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 34:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just want you to allow your attention to drift downward.
• 34:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 34:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Take out that go downward.
• 34:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Go into your rain.
• 34:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Huh, can't really see that, but you can kind of imagine it.
• 34:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to feel in of your body.
• 34:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Fail your body as a living body.
• 34:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Think about trying to reach into your organs systems, reach into your cells, go all the way into your genes, and go into your genes and see molecules, see atoms,
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: See inside of atoms, you have these particles, these particles are like these energy information waves.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And imagine trailing the wave all the way back, all the way back down from all the different kinds of matter, all the different space time, go all the way back to the big bang.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now think about that as just a spot, a dot, a pure energy information density.
• 35:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now explode that energy information density into differentiating energy into different kinds of matter.
• 35:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: It explodes into quarks and electrons.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It explodes then into different kinds of space-time formations.
• 35:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then you can trail your little particular something happened to Planet Earth fast forward ten billion years.
• 35:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now we're on the surface of Planet Earth fast forward another four billion years right before your parents are about to consummate you and all of a sudden genes and cells come together your born out of your mother
• 35:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your cells and your genes rise together.
• 35:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Your brain is collecting and organizing its informational structure into an energy representation.
• 36:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can trail yourself across time.
• 36:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here you are moving back up into the feelings of your body.
• 36:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is your felt sense of mindiness as a sensory motor loop.
• 36:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: That mindiness is pulling your body together through your nervous system.
• 36:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's organizing.
• 36:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is epicenter of witness.
• 36:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're a minded primate that can see out on the world.
• 36:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're not just a minded primate, you're actually a justifying person.
• 36:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, you and I are connected together through a dimension of justification.
• 36:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: That dimension of justification pulls our culture together.
• 36:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It organizes our society and technology.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: It allows us to be self-conscious beings.
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we can wonder how we're all connected under one web of energy information.
• 36:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we could coordinate that energy information toward the good.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a wave of energy information.
• 37:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: Can we tour in and it toward the good?
• 37:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, like you come back, huh?
• 37:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: What I'm inviting folks is that's the grammar we teach in school.
• 37:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what's embedded in that is a new model for how to think about where we are in the universe.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's completely consistent with modern science.
• 37:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's consistent with our experience.
• 37:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Could you unpack that a bit further in terms of like my experience was of kind of
• 37:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: going back into matter and the experience of the big bang and then the evolution of
• 38:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: out of matter in light life, you know, on earth, like my parents, and then from there used to, you know, word justification as well.
• 38:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: So it felt like culture or something was, you know, collect, could you, could you kind of articulate this journey in terms of how it cohes or reconcile things?
• 38:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 38:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was stone one night in nineteen ninety seven and I popped out of me popped what I then would later call the tree of knowledge system.
• 38:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: The tree of knowledge system is the core scientific ground of Utah.
• 38:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the core scientific ground.
• 38:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: This behind me is the thing called the tree of life and the first branch on the tree of life right here is called the tree of knowledge.
• 38:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And those of you that went to Sunday school are like, hey, that wasn't there a tree of life and the tree of knowledge and the Bible?
• 39:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
• 39:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a direct connection here.
• 39:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, the tree of knowledge is a map
• 39:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: of what's called big history.
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Big history, you should Google it, if you don't know what it is, if you have, it's a wonderful novel over the last twenty years, attempt for interdisciplinary group folks to get together and say, hey, we can put this together in a big origin story if we use the historical by complexity timeline, meaning that there's a time from past to present, and there's an evolution of complexity.
• 39:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Stuff from matter into life up into culture, okay?
• 39:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, and virtually every big picture scientific system now, especially since the discovery of the Big Bang, which happened in the middle of the twentieth century, or the Big Bang equivalent, there's technical issues, but they were pretty clear that this is the basic structure, okay?
• 39:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Give you an emergence of out-of-energy comes the matter dimension, okay?
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then over time it affolds and then life pops up and then culture pops up, okay?
• 40:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's a super well-known frame of reference.
• 40:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at least, but it's not integrated yet.
• 40:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what the tree of knowledge does is it marries big history to modern, to psychology as I see it.
• 40:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, so I bring the psychological, notice you go from life to culture.
• 40:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the way the big history models.
• 40:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: What they are missing is the dimension of mind.
• 40:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Tree of Knowledge gives you four dimensions, not three.
• 40:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It says there's the first out of energy comes matter.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And matters a kind of complexification and also goes rice does a spacetime continuum, okay?
• 40:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Out of matter comes life.
• 40:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: What makes life such a different kind of thing is the way life self-organizes through information processing within the cell and then communication networks between cells to give life as a new complex adaptive plane of existence.
• 41:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll say that again.
• 41:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So life emerges out of matter and what makes it so different as a complex adaptive plane of existence is that it has these systematic capacities to metabolize information basically.
• 41:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Store, compute it, and what it does is they use that to predict where energy is going to be so it can suck up energy to do work for the cell.
• 41:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And maintain its organization.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what makes life so different than matter.
• 41:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when you're die, your little complexity bubble pops and you go down into and you just left over matter.
• 41:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what life does is through very issue selection retention that builds these models of information processing communication that works to maintain its complex adaptive organization.
• 41:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, look at culture, okay?
• 41:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Culture similar.
• 41:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the sense that what are we doing now?
• 41:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're generating communication networks and I'm engaged in linguistic information processing and virtually everybody.
• 41:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's tools and language and reasoning that seem to make us so different than other animals.
• 42:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so everyone's like, oh, we exploded.
• 42:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not out of there.
• 42:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know what?
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It turns out there's a whole other layer of that's obvious when you look for it, okay?
• 42:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the layer of the nervous system.
• 42:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: and the sensory motor loop that gives rise to the animal dimension of existence.
• 42:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: All the old pre-modern systems of understanding saw these four Aristotle call them the scales of nature.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: animate and a mole in rational human, okay?
• 42:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Every society across all different dimensions differentiates the animal spirits from the living spirits.
• 42:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why?
• 42:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because any damn four-year-old can go into the woods and look at it and see that the birds and the bees are behaving differently than the mushrooms and the trees.
• 42:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's that simple.
• 42:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what we call behavior should have been called mindiness.
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: We like, oh, just call behavior, the stimulus response, functional awareness and adaptivity that William Johns, and Watson, who called it behavior, he should have called it minded behavior.
• 43:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a particular kind of behavior.
• 43:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not behavior in general, Adams behavior in general, sounds behavior.
• 43:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Animals behave in a unique sensory motorway that should have been called mindiness.
• 43:29
  [SPEAKER_04]: And it reminded me, meaning also that there's a particular coherence to the way they move.
• 43:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like a lot of rapid isn't just randomly running, you know, it's it's it's fulfilling its own.
• 43:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 43:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mind your rest, you know, it's a rapid group as court, even BF Skinner said, yeah, a rapid group is coordinated singularities or coordinated holes.
• 43:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: They move as functional awareness units that operate as
• 43:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: coordinated singularities, okay?
• 43:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's the nervous system that's a faulty mat.
• 44:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole science called cybernetics, which is the process by which we control systems, govern systems.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: We could scientifically model all this, okay?
• 44:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so what I say is we should call the world of animals, minded animals, and they grow out of living organisms.
• 44:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the same basic process that allow mining animals to be one-dimension higher than life is that they have, of course, cells, so they're or living, but then the cells get tied together through a sensory motor network.
• 44:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what makes animals particularly unique.
• 44:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a sensory motor loop.
• 44:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And other animal living things and trust me, living things have a lot of intelligence in them, but they don't have minded intelligence.
• 44:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now the interesting thing about my goodness is my goodness.
• 44:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: I call that mind one by the way.
• 44:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's actually three really important different definitions of mind.
• 44:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mind one is the functional awareness and responsibility of animals.
• 44:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 44:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we can study this totally scientifically.
• 45:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you can see what this is called animal behavior is really minded behavior.
• 45:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: You see how animals respond to
• 45:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: act things in the world.
• 45:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 45:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if I have goldfish, I come on up and I bring their mind at activity.
• 45:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They see me.
• 45:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I turn the light on and they associate the light with being fed and they make the prediction that they're about ready to be fed.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So their bodies get all activated and they come to the top.
• 45:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's basic science.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can observe that.
• 45:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: their functional awareness and responsibility.
• 45:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We can also, you know, with ethical considerations, cut open their little brains and see the neuron structure and see how when I fed them, their neurons prune in tune to the particular environment.
• 45:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we can then say there's a neurocognitive mean in a neuro informational structure that then brain in particular nervous system in general is doing to regulate that and mediate.
• 45:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 45:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that by the way is behavioral cognitive neuroscience.
• 45:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 46:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's mind, mind cognitive science behavioral.
• 46:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: All together.
• 46:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 46:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, remember the first question I said, well, what psychology really cares about?
• 46:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what do I say?
• 46:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that ship behind your eyes.
• 46:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 46:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, that remains a bit of a trick.
• 46:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I call mind, too.
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so mind one is the neurocognome activity that we can easily study with standard science.
• 46:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Then there's a great question that says, well, wait a minute, how does the matter life
• 46:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: brain turn into subjective conscious experience of being.
• 46:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's mind one, life into mind one, then the question is, well, when does mind two pop?
• 46:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what does it look like?
• 46:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Animal consciousness question.
• 46:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's tricky.
• 46:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: The mind one to mind two issue is exactly, if you know anything about philosophy, you know the hard problem of consciousness,
• 47:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's really the hard problem of how mind one turns into mind two.
• 47:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the hard problem.
• 47:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: The word consciousness is very ambiguous, but mind one mind two isn't.
• 47:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, that's why much prefer mind one mind two.
• 47:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I listen to all these podcasts on what's consciousness.
• 47:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: They don't define what they're talking about.
• 47:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mind one mind two makes it crystal clear.
• 47:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: The hard problem is what are the mechanisms in mind one?
• 47:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: that, not correlate with, but cause mine too.
• 47:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the hard problem, that's simple as that.
• 47:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And to find mine too, again, mine too.
• 47:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mine too is this experience of what it is like to be from the inside.
• 47:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the first person experience of being, which as we started with, cannot be observed from the outside, it's the nature outside, I call the epistemological gap.
• 47:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Not to be confused with the Enlightenment gap.
• 47:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: The epistemological gap means I can't see what my dog is feeling, just like I can't even see what you're feeling.
• 47:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 47:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's mind one, mind two, and then as well, what about mind three?
• 47:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 47:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, mind three is what we're doing here.
• 48:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, mind one, you can observe behaviorally.
• 48:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mind two is subjective.
• 48:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mind three is inter-subjective justification and language.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 48:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which means you, so mind mind three has the talking that I'm engaged inside.
• 48:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, Greg, how's this going?
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my public narrative, hey, is Joel getting what I'm laying down.
• 48:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so your audience, all of us are now plugging into the mind, what I call the culture person, mind three space.
• 48:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is just talking.
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 48:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, talking.
• 48:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now notice that you're observing this directly.
• 48:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: You get to observe by talking directly.
• 48:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember I said you can't see what red looks like, remember that?
• 48:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you can see what I say red looks like if you speak English.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 48:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Notice your thoughts about red go right through the skin.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't change.
• 48:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's red.
• 48:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of cherry apple.
• 48:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Say it to yourself privately folks.
• 49:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Say it out loud.
• 49:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: The propositional network structure is exactly the same inside and out.
• 49:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 49:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're seeing people's minds all the time.
• 49:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: You see in mind three, all every time they share something with you.
• 49:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: As a coach, you say, hey, what brings you in?
• 49:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's mind three.
• 49:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're observing directly by virtue of your ability of speaking English and comprehend your exactly observing their mental process.
• 49:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if anyone tells you, you can't see mental process here.
• 49:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: What you mean is you can't see mind two.
• 49:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 49:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You see mind three and mind one.
• 49:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 49:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what this does, as it says, we've never figured out the right vocabulary.
• 49:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Vermont.
• 49:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 49:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it sticks right in between life into biology and culture into society.
• 49:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a way to plug it into our grammar and see it as clearly as day.
• 49:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Nice, nice.
• 49:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: So that's what I was about to ask.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: So basically by adding mind as a layer in there, suddenly we can then categorize mind into these three types of mind.
• 50:08
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then suddenly we've got a common kind of vocabulary, a common kind of understanding of how all our different perspectives inside of psychology would then
• 50:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: fit inside of this theory of knowledge.
• 50:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: Is this the theory of knowledge?
• 50:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: The tree of knowledge that grounds the unified theory of knowledge.
• 50:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's our science.
• 50:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the tree of knowledge grounds the science, which is your behavioral perspective, our shared interest objective agreement about behavior.
• 50:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll maybe we'll put up a, you know, there's a diagram of the tree.
• 50:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you do a lot of visual, I could pull that up.
• 50:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But basically, it's matter of life, mine, culture, evolving across the time dimension.
• 50:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's fifteen billion years.
• 50:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are two point eight billion years.
• 50:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then four billion years, your life starts to pop.
• 50:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then about five hundred fifty million years ago, which called the Cambridge Explosion, that's when mine do pops.
• 51:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's fairly narrow point where it pops onto the world.
• 51:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then about, between five hundred thousand and fifty thousand years,
• 51:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: culture pops, you know, in humans.
• 51:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so you can see these times popping in the world.
• 51:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this gives us our third person's perspective, which basically says, Hey, there's energy, and then there's material objects behaving, then there's living objects behaving, then there's animal objects behaving, and then there's person objects behaving.
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's our behavioral perspective.
• 51:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 51:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it says, well, actually, what we get to see at the mind levels, we get to see mind one B, that's behavior.
• 51:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: We can look at mind one A, that's the neural cognitive stuff.
• 51:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like if we do a functional MRI, we can look at that.
• 51:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't see mind two from behavior.
• 51:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's because there's an epistemological gap.
• 51:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we can humans, we get to see mind three if they talk to us.
• 51:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 51:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now we can be very clear what the behavioral perspective is.
• 51:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 52:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I started us, remember when I said, sit in the, in you, sit in you, Joel, right?
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember we took that, everyone, everybody be inside.
• 52:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what the unified theory gives you the tree of knowledge, it also gives you this thing called the coin.
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 52:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: This weird thing is called the I quad coin.
• 52:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're holding up a coin for people to listen.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 52:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 52:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And all those are a lot inside this coin.
• 52:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: The basic issue is if you blur, you can kind of see an H. There's an H there.
• 52:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if I rotate it, it becomes an I. Don't worry about the specifics, but just imagine a coin with an H and an I on it.
• 52:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 52:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's as high.
• 52:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 52:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What that symbolizes is human identity.
• 52:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It symbolizes your
• 52:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my unique particular human identity.
• 52:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: It says that each of us have a unique mind too, a epistemological portal that gives us our own insight out, subjective identity perspective on the world.
• 53:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what the unified theory says is, hey, science is one third position in the world.
• 53:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's an epistemetic third-person general.
• 53:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: But it turns out there's an epistemological gap between third-person general and first-person particular.
• 53:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's obvious, right?
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this is an opening really disputes that.
• 53:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we would need a model of knowledge that includes both our third-person general behavioral view and our first-person observer view.
• 53:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there aren't any.
• 53:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are no models that do that.
• 53:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you talk comes along and it not only maps the mind system, it maps the difference between the tree of knowledge and the coin.
• 53:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: The coin is you in the world.
• 53:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The tree of knowledge is science in the world.
• 53:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the, so you talk towards this a way to marry the coin.
• 53:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: to the tree, to conform our subject of experience of being in the world, with what science says the world is.
• 54:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's sort of what I was doing before when I was like, hey, see yourself as a matter, as a life, as a minded animal, as a culture person from the inside, does that drive with your human identity?
• 54:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Fuck yeah, I can see myself, I talk, I feel like no-no-no body, I'm obviously a material object, but wait a minute.
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's inside and out now, Joel?
• 54:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 54:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you talk gives us a tool that says, Hey, when we were talking about your unique position, you're talking from the coin perspective.
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: When we're talking about science, we're talking from the tree.
• 54:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And with the unified theory, we can marry the coin to the tree or the tree to the coin.
• 54:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And finally, finally, bridge the epistemological gap and have a grammar of energy, batter, life, mind, culture inside and out.
• 54:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: And what do you think the implications are for this?
• 54:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: For example, if we keep it to the field of psychology, what do you think the implications are?
• 55:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know you've been saying that, yeah, we can actually then connect what we're doing.
• 55:07
  [SPEAKER_04]: We can build it off of what's already taken place.
• 55:10
  [SPEAKER_04]: And like in practical terms, what do you think that might afford?
• 55:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lovely.
• 55:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 55:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, let's shift gears a little bit because that's a great time to shift.
• 55:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go from this side of the tree of life to this black dot over here.
• 55:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: All right.
• 55:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: So you'll then people listening.
• 55:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you'll point on one side of the joint side of the tree of life to the other which by the way, the true that tree of life sits on the other side of the eye quite clean.
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 55:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 55:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, flip the coin over the tree of life on the other side of the icon.
• 55:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 55:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Joel, let me ask you.
• 55:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, as a coach, you ever experienced anybody in sort of feeling stuck feeling like they're having a emotional conflicts feeling like they're heading their heart.
• 55:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just don't get along.
• 55:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
• 55:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: Of course.
• 55:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: That's, I never thought that myself.
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, enough.
• 56:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 56:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when you're, do you then try to help them gain awareness of their sort of different parts of themselves, the different forces inside themselves, their different wishes, spheres, etc.
• 56:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.
• 56:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 56:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 56:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 56:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you ever notice that then people sort of have, uh, they get situated and negative things happen to them.
• 56:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have a body, emotional reaction.
• 56:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have clear images, feelings, wishes, and then they start talking to themselves and trying to justify what's going on, try to justify with others and often the way they then try to justify to themselves and others get some all even tangled up inside and get some sort of like stock and frustrated because they don't have good sort of flow and relating to these parts.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the core human dilemmas, isn't it?
• 56:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
• 56:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 56:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna, one of the, he incisely unified theory basically takes the key incites of Freud, it's been Freud, and updates them.
• 56:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 57:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It says, if you listen to me, it says that we are both cultured persons and have a mind-three that gets socialized into the cultured person world.
• 57:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're also primates.
• 57:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: animal, mammal, primates, and we live in the animal world.
• 57:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like we're like animals or alike apes, folks.
• 57:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are in eight.
• 57:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's you are in eight.
• 57:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you're like apes.
• 57:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're in eight.
• 57:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're an ape.
• 57:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a person.
• 57:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're not a human being that's like an ape.
• 57:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: You are an ape.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's also a person.
• 57:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you're also an orgasm.
• 57:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're also a material object.
• 57:38
  [UNKNOWN]: Okay.
• 57:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're all that.
• 57:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the ape living in the world operates on a different timeframe and through a different length of information system.
• 57:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: The ape operates through mind one and two.
• 57:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it allows you to do things.
• 57:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like if you can play basketball, that's actually your ape.
• 57:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 58:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 58:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: It lives it allows you to be in the world as an embodied animal.
• 58:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 58:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you also have your reasoning, justifying system.
• 58:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's trying to make sense out of the world, propositionally, and trying to explain to the world what you are, what you've done, why you've done, and how you maintain status and identity.
• 58:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Freud basically said, we have a chitcho of conflict between what the animal is doing in the world, what he called the id, below the eye, below the justifying ego,
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have this all this, and above the justified ego, the super, which is really the cultural authority, is telling you how you ought to be.
• 58:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 58:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he basically says, this is going to be a conflict between what society says is ought and what the animal wants.
• 58:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, if we go to Freud in Victoria in Europe, we can see totally Victorian Europe is all about trying to suppress the animal's urge to fight
• 59:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And create a justified polite society.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so Freud then sees, oh my God, there's a super ego that is repressing the crap out of the immediate urges of that animal.
• 59:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then that drives all sorts of conflict as the ego tries to engage in defense and repress some of this and rationalize it.
• 59:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's right about the basic dynamics here.
• 59:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Freud's had a brilliant observer of human behavior.
• 59:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know?
• 59:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's all sorts of different reasons.
• 59:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens to people is this, they get hit by negative situations.
• 59:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: The most classic thing is what I call, what I help people diagnose if we're now in the con, is the epicenter of what brings people to psychotherapy and certainly life and emotional coaching is what I call neurotic loops, neurotic loop.
• 59:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 59:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Neurotic loop is can, I technically call it, and if you're coaching with me, I will tell you, you have to learn this.
• 59:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to spend some time getting the right basic mechanics.
• 1:00:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a triple negative neurotic loop.
• 1:00:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Triple negative rock loop.
• 1:00:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what happens?
• 1:00:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Negative situation.
• 1:00:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Boom.
• 1:00:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: You got an email.
• 1:00:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I need to talk to you from your boss.
• 1:00:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That negative situation hits your primate system and it pulls negative feelings.
• 1:00:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh God, okay.
• 1:00:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna get anxious.
• 1:00:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna project various threats.
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna probably potentially be like, oh no, am I in trouble?
• 1:00:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, my boss is an asshole.
• 1:00:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, what's going to happen in relationship to this?
• 1:00:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: What did I do?
• 1:00:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does he think I do?
• 1:00:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Who did all of this?
• 1:00:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna get flooded.
• 1:00:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:00:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: With a bunch of negative feelings that then start to branch out in terms of negative possibilities that you're gonna have to try to respond to.
• 1:00:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the immediate narrating self-reaction of your primate.
• 1:00:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:00:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and what it's doing is it's running through various simulations.
• 1:01:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right?
• 1:01:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what you do here is super key.
• 1:01:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:01:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because now the person will come online and be like, person party like, oh God.
• 1:01:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now what do I do?
• 1:01:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what follows for many people is that they will have systematic ways of trying to navigate the negative situation, negative feeling that makes sense often in the short term or historically, but ultimately track them.
• 1:01:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So one is a void.
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm not going to think about this.
• 1:01:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just go in there and see.
• 1:01:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm sure nothing's fine.
• 1:01:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: No problem.
• 1:01:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing at all.
• 1:01:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:01:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's happening there is the anxiety is such that I can't look at it.
• 1:01:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I just pretend it's not true.
• 1:01:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's called repression, suppression, or denial.
• 1:01:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the culture person.
• 1:01:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just if I any goes in, I'm sure it'll be fine.
• 1:02:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if you do that and you go in, you're not going to be prepared at all and you're not going to know how and if that stuff really has happened, you're going to get overloaded and when the denial thing bursts, you're going to freak out and panic.
• 1:02:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're going to try to keep all the stuff at the closet.
• 1:02:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to hit you and if you're not prepared for it, you're going to get overloaded.
• 1:02:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Other things, other really common strategies are to blame.
• 1:02:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, my boss is such an asshole.
• 1:02:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, who's against me?
• 1:02:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So blame other.
• 1:02:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Blame self, blame the fate.
• 1:02:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: What is this happening to me?
• 1:02:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am horrible, so you're blame, okay?
• 1:02:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing?
• 1:02:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're trying to make sense out of the world, you're blame.
• 1:02:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or you'll engage in misguided control.
• 1:02:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, I need to go talk, I need to do this, I need to do your, I need to gain absolute control over this so I can predict what's going to happen.
• 1:02:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Avoidance, blame, and control when I call the ABCs,
• 1:02:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Of the second Nary reaction.
• 1:03:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you engage in it, they often make sense.
• 1:03:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to be clear.
• 1:03:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you should never avoid blame a control.
• 1:03:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But often they are like bringing water to a grease fire.
• 1:03:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:03:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: If there's a fire, that's a negative situation.
• 1:03:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to have negative feelings.
• 1:03:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do something.
• 1:03:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 1:03:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And often you want to bring water to a fire, sometimes avoidance blaming control, maybe appropriate.
• 1:03:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: But very often avoidance blaming control, though, negative situation, negative feeling are like, bring water to a great fire, you're going to make the situation much, much worse.
• 1:03:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
• 1:03:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So all of a sudden you're going to create a, and if that's the case, you are now trapped in a loop, which means that you're going to create more negative situations, have more negative feelings and engage in more ineffective coping, only to try harder.
• 1:03:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: as you try to clamp down on avoidance playing a control.
• 1:03:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:03:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's you trap you in a negative neurotic loop, which is like a train that drags you into what I call the cave of behavioral shutdown.
• 1:04:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because eventually, you're basically going to get stuck, you're going to get rigid and you're going to get shut down.
• 1:04:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: First, you'll panic, you'll get anxious, you'll frustrate it.
• 1:04:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: If that stays for a while, your system will shut you down in a cave of behavior, shut down.
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I deal with that all the time.
• 1:04:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the expert in depression.
• 1:04:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Over and over poor people get stuck into this and they get driven into a nightmare cave.
• 1:04:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the triple negative neurotic loop is negative situation, negative feeling.
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the secondary negative reaction of void and spling control.
• 1:04:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what the hell do we do about this, Joel?
• 1:04:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is, I mean, I'm all of the unified theory came out of psychotherapy.
• 1:04:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: So all of this comes from, not from physics, it comes from me talking to people, okay?
• 1:04:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then thinking about what kind of thing a human being is and what kind of problems do they have, okay?
• 1:04:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what actually you want to learn how to do is you want to learn how to get right relation of your person and your primate.
• 1:04:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: You want to get the person in prime in right relation.
• 1:05:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so what we can do, the beauty of our person system, is that it affords us as much more what's called perspective of flexibility.
• 1:05:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: It can be, it can basically, hmm, that's one view of the world.
• 1:05:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's my primate self is doing the world.
• 1:05:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's, and even my ego then is justifying what my prime itself is doing.
• 1:05:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we humans have this remarkable capacity and I get into why, but we can shift perspectives.
• 1:05:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and we can change our perspectives in relation.
• 1:05:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the first things that I want to help people learn how to do is shift perspective from being in the world and having to grip it this way, from watching yourself, being in the world and gripping it this way.
• 1:05:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, oh my god, my boss just sent me a message.
• 1:05:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I even teach my boss, oh my god, Greg's boss just sought him a lesson.
• 1:05:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Notice when I turn, when I say Greg, there's a shift.
• 1:05:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:05:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now all of a sudden it's happening to somebody else.
• 1:06:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:06:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I developed, ultimately, and I'll be this along, it's called the comm ML.
• 1:06:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: This little black dot is a picture you can't see it from here, but it's a picture of an eye looking from above.
• 1:06:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a little eye that looks down on you.
• 1:06:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's a meta observer.
• 1:06:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: It means that you shift outside your perspective and see yourself from the vantage point of a meta observer.
• 1:06:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it asks, then the meta observer, then is watching what you do.
• 1:06:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what I train people is to put attention energy into the meta observer.
• 1:06:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And see yourself and do things like, hey, Greg, just got to note from his boss.
• 1:06:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're whole host of other techniques that enable you to shift out from the subjective to where the subjective becomes the object of your attention.
• 1:06:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: When whenever you somebody comes to you and you say, hey, what brings you in?
• 1:06:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Joel, you're bringing a meta observer.
• 1:06:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're saying, hey, let's step outside you and ask and share and narrate about the experience rather than being in the experience.
• 1:07:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's calm, calm.
• 1:07:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, the word that says, hey, pay attention to negative reactivity.
• 1:07:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then ultimately, that is an acronym and it breaks itself down into curiosity.
• 1:07:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't it interesting that Greg's getting a note from his boss?
• 1:07:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: How can we wonder about that?
• 1:07:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: It also emphasizes openness and awe.
• 1:07:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you're going to do acceptance.
• 1:07:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Identify what is instead of avoiding out of fear.
• 1:07:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you do that?
• 1:07:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that takes a lot of training, distressed tolerance, capacity that you can train.
• 1:07:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Instead of engaging in blame, engaging in loving compassion towards self and other.
• 1:07:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, be motivated toward valued states of being, understand your purpose, understand the possibility, which I know you can appreciate, as you behave, are able to be present in what it is.
• 1:07:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, ComMO Fundamentally is about a presencing system.
• 1:07:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's about a purposeful orientation for the possibility of what ought to be and about committing your person's self to that as your primate is doing what that wants to win.
• 1:08:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not the managing of those relations fundamentally.
• 1:08:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: So KOMMO is about unidentifying and untangling, triple negative rock loops and dispelling the final and replacing the ABCs with the curious accepting loving motivates for value.
• 1:08:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a being attitude.
• 1:08:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: It's really beautiful because I'm thinking now about a lot of coaching approaches.
• 1:08:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: And this might actually lead us into a conversation about how we cohere different psychological approaches or coaching approaches or therapeutic approaches it inside of what you're talking about.
• 1:08:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: Because I think a lot of coaching is about
• 1:08:47
  [SPEAKER_04]: how do we recognize when we become reactive, when we become triggered?
• 1:08:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: And what, what, what shift do we need to make in that moment?
• 1:08:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: in order to become more regulated or to kind of calm down again, in order for a higher functioning capacity to come back online.
• 1:09:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: And even, I can then situate a lot of coaching around, if people come in and they're like, there's something not right in my life, it's not quite what I'm not leaving the life I want.
• 1:09:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: So then there's even a metacognitive capacity on top of the habituation
• 1:09:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: of being a human being, which is an adaptive function, so it's a good thing that if we didn't habituate or adapt, then we would be living in a kind of world of extreme novelty all the time, and that would be, we probably wouldn't be functional, so we've adapted and become functional, but
• 1:09:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, at some point in our lives, that functionality is just not right for as anymore.
• 1:09:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: So even on that level, which is probably maybe different from the immediate being becoming triggered and reactive, there's actually inviting people into a meta cognitive moment.
• 1:10:04
  [SPEAKER_04]: to then reflect on their lives and what might want to change.
• 1:10:09
  [SPEAKER_04]: And all of that kind of fits inside of what are you talking about around, if you include the matter and life, biology and then these different levels of mind and culture, I can see how it all
• 1:10:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: start to fit inside of that basically that you can come at coaching from a different, you know, there's this coaching which is more embodied, that's kind of a more physiological and then there's coaching which is embodied, but it's looking at how you've been shaped by culture and what have you been imbued and imbibed.
• 1:10:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, that's kind of like I just wanted to share like that's some of the reflections that I hear you talk.
• 1:10:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful reflection.
• 1:10:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's exactly the point that out of the cacophony, there's an opportunity for much more symphony, and that we can then say, oh, when you do habits stuff, actually habit down regulates mine two into mine one.
• 1:11:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so when you learn to tie your shoes, it's all as a five year old, everything's a damn surprise.
• 1:11:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, I hold this, I hold this and you have to bring you what's called your taskory and a network and mind to and you and the reason mind to is it deals with uncertainty and surprise.
• 1:11:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually what your consciousness does.
• 1:11:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, by the time you're raw age, you know, probably you just pop your shoes on, you know, and occasionally you screw it up and then that will bring attention, but most of the time you just do it.
• 1:11:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So these are operating systems that we then download.
• 1:11:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We learn them.
• 1:11:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But what we know is therapists and coaches is people build operating systems.
• 1:11:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: They do it for relating to dad.
• 1:11:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: They do it for their jobs.
• 1:11:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: They do it to drink.
• 1:11:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But once these operating systems get in grain, they're then you can start to pull against you.
• 1:11:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: But you become sort of blind to them.
• 1:11:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Both because of habit issues.
• 1:11:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then there's also psychodynamic defense issues.
• 1:11:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I teach people and what's called the habit system, the experiential system, relationships system, defense and justification.
• 1:11:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: These are actually the systems of mental adaptation, character adaptation that we can then shine the light on, and pull from lots of insights and see they actually aligning up trying to influence different systems of adaptation.
• 1:12:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again, from noise comes music when you actually are able to see the whole picture.
• 1:12:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: because that music's the part that I'm fascinated by here is, you know, like, do we, are we then, yeah, we see, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:12:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say like assessing people and what might be an appropriate approach to coaching for that person in the moment, depending on, you know, now we've got kind of, you know, a field, a coherent field.
• 1:12:42
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm kind of wondering whether, like, for example, in therapy, if there's like an evolution in the way we treat people or in coaching, you know, that people are able to then receive really specified
• 1:12:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
• 1:12:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: It types of interventions.
• 1:12:57
  [SPEAKER_04]: Right.
• 1:12:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because of now we've got this coherence.
• 1:13:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
• 1:13:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what in what the unified and I was going to do this, but then my system just kept growing and I really used like it's not about the professions about society.
• 1:13:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: But but it's exactly where I was headed.
• 1:13:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So when I started to build what's called the unified approach, that's the unified approach of psychotherapy, which basically is going to take the insights from behaviorism, optimism to psychodynamic humanistic family systems anchored to a bio-psychological
• 1:13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, social architecture and they've put them all together and do psychotherapy.
• 1:13:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was like, well, okay, but to do that, what you need to do is a comprehensive assessment.
• 1:13:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:13:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I actually built what's called the well-being screen and checkup system, which affords a big picture view of the individual as a whole and a developmental context and specifies the different domains of adaptation.
• 1:13:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: the different domains of coping that they engage in and allows us to elucidate the various who they are as a person and the kind of problems that, well, the situations that will pull them in and the kind of reactive problems that may be problematic in the active problems that actually afford them gross so that they can see the ways in which they behave differently in the areas that they're going to have to gain some insight into new skills and other areas of strength and growth that they can really channel to compensate in other ways.
• 1:14:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's so I built the unified approach to assessment.
• 1:14:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it's like, and we're looking at this is like, you know, actually, we should have this just as part of our, and it's not clinical.
• 1:14:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of like, hey, how are your habits, how are your emotions?
• 1:14:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we talk about it clinically, but it should be the kind of stuff that's, as this is handled, sensitively in families and in schools and in the business room.
• 1:14:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a basic understanding just to how people are and what it is that they operate on as primates in persons, in relationships across history.
• 1:14:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I hundred percent agree, and this is absolutely the vision.
• 1:14:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Remember I talked about instead of sand castles, we should actually have a building.
• 1:14:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as you understand where the rooms are, when we add new furniture, it goes in at a particular place.
• 1:14:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't just erase the whole building so we can then say, somebody's got a really interesting unique approach to somatic experiencing.
• 1:14:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: We could play somatic experiencing in the mind to to mind one embodiment, where the valence qualia on whatever's happening in the, in the proprioceptive notions of the body and how associations have been made and how can individuals access that?
• 1:15:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: not through narrative, but through embodied experiences.
• 1:15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what kind of gestalt's that bring to mind, too?
• 1:15:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: How would we want to set up mind free for that?
• 1:15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how would we, after that rise, how would we want to cultivate mind-threative metabolism of that?
• 1:15:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 1:15:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a immediately affords your particular kind of language.
• 1:15:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You go to somatic therapy, you go to motion-focused therapy, you go to psychodynamic therapy, et cetera.
• 1:15:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: and a huge amount of potential harmony between those sets of insights, emerges, and how to differentiate them.
• 1:15:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Member John Berwick is a generalized into differentiation dialect.
• 1:15:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
• 1:15:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: Which I could imagine would allow for a high level of kind of creative synergy and innovation to take place too.
• 1:15:55
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm just wondering, have you, you know, because I, you know,
• 1:16:01
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just thinking of some of Dave Snowden's recent criticisms, Nora Batesons around, you know, the notion of like a unified or like an assessment, a unified assessment.
• 1:16:12
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have you thought about, right?
• 1:16:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly, Dave Stone and Norbids and others are raising serious questions about a simplistic developmental stage theory.
• 1:16:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We absolutely want to be very, I totally support
• 1:16:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: the general criticism, going to be very careful.
• 1:16:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: The way in which people justify, we want to be very careful.
• 1:16:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here's a rainbow ladder to enlightenment.
• 1:16:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, get to, you know, do three four steps and you are now moving into turquoise and you will be more enlightenment in your fellow man.
• 1:16:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if you know anything about justification and you know anything about character structure, that is a very dangerous thing to hand people.
• 1:16:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So in terms of you, you know, it may have certain kinds of validity, but there's a big issue, what's called the double hermeneutic between in social sciences.
• 1:17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: A double hermeneutic is you can build interpretive systems about how things are, how you describe and explain things.
• 1:17:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: But if you also then try to use that to train people, people then buy the concepts and then start doing shit with it.
• 1:17:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the way in which those concepts then feed back into the system, you have to be attentive to.
• 1:17:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: So one of my big criticisms of the will-barion version of reality is it's interesting at the level of description.
• 1:17:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it's weaker at the level of explanation, but it is very dangerous even at the level of prescription where that you can hand a neurotic, a narcissist, sort of, you talk about spiritual bypassing, you do psychological developmental bypassing.
• 1:17:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I took an assessment and I'm a Keegan level fiber.
• 1:17:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh my god, that just tells me you're not.
• 1:17:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's hardly self-authoring, buddy.
• 1:17:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: But how do people know how to, you have to be a pretty sophisticated person to know what's bullshit and relationship to this?
• 1:18:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, I appreciate them.
• 1:18:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think they overshoot.
• 1:18:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what I like to say is, all right, let's just take at least a Zoom view back.
• 1:18:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: A safe stage model is this at the level of development.
• 1:18:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Animal, child, adult, sage.
• 1:18:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
• 1:18:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's enough.
• 1:18:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:18:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: And and let other people tell you if you're on the sage domain.
• 1:18:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:18:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there you go.
• 1:18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's it.
• 1:18:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's and that and they're absolutely, of course, is certain kinds of, you know, egoic development.
• 1:18:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Watch a child.
• 1:18:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: A child doesn't talk at all.
• 1:18:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then it gets frag, I mean, to PSA.
• 1:18:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: You basically can look at PSA.
• 1:18:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you could clearly see stations in life.
• 1:18:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not whole stages.
• 1:18:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not like, oh my God, we found the whole thing about how to be a whole person.
• 1:18:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, you're a multi, and of course, alcohol, and, you know, Wilbur gets this.
• 1:18:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But their criticisms of a simplistic version of this and the damage you can do and all of that, I generally support, I think they overshoot and some of the analytic criticisms of it in the sense that it's got certain analytic value.
• 1:19:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly, what I, here's what I want to say.
• 1:19:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: this, okay?
• 1:19:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want everybody to believe this, okay?
• 1:19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: That there has been an evolution of complexification in the universe.
• 1:19:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we can talk about entropy or whatever, but who cares?
• 1:19:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: The universe has gone from energy to matter to life-mind culture, okay?
• 1:19:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Culture persons, I want to say, have the most value.
• 1:19:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm a humanist in that regard.
• 1:19:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what I say, if you're like, well, that's anthropomorphic.
• 1:19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, well, drive down the street.
• 1:19:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you see a squirrel on one side and a child on the other, you swore to miss the squirrel and decide to run over the child.
• 1:19:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to be in trouble.
• 1:19:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I think rightfully so.
• 1:19:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you run over a child over a squirrel and I'm not happy with it.
• 1:19:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Especially if it's my kid.
• 1:19:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love squirrels, but run over the in squirrel.
• 1:19:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, so there you go at a base level of value.
• 1:19:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's my basic claim.
• 1:19:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the other thing that I want everybody, we should all know, especially should be salient in terms of chat GPT.
• 1:20:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: What the unified theory says is that complex adaptive planes of existence are sustained, emerge, metabolize, and hold their complexification as a function of information processing systems and communication networks.
• 1:20:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Say that again, life-mining culture, merge, and maintain their self-organizing structures through information processing system and communication networks.
• 1:20:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: When I discovered this in nineteen ninety-seven, for me a little while, figure out exactly what the hell life-mining culture were, and then I realized their information processing and communication network structures mediated by genes and cells, nervous system animals, language, cultural mediation systems, etc.
• 1:20:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: When you see that, you're like, ah, hey, yo, Joel, have we seen any novel information processing communication networks emerging as a plate?
• 1:20:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you look at the twentieth century, like holy shit.
• 1:20:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're developing a digital globalization network.
• 1:20:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We were laying down like jellyfish in the, in seven hundred million ago, years ago, they were jellyfish.
• 1:21:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then they pop into the Cambridge exposure because they get network, they get control, and they get information interface.
• 1:21:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we just now, we did the network, then we did crawlers, web crawlers with things like Google.
• 1:21:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, we built up an information interface system with chatGPT.
• 1:21:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: OK.
• 1:21:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the last thing that needs to happen is a centralized control structure around that thing.
• 1:21:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have a higher order.
• 1:21:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, whether it's better or worse, it will be a higher order of merge complexification.
• 1:21:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are right in the chirotic moment when I call the fifth joint point.
• 1:21:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: In this moment, as we move into what I call digital matter of culture, we're in digital matter culture.
• 1:21:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So what I will say is, and that may be much worse than the culture, you know, I, well, there are a lot of reasons that things are worse, but it will be more complexified, and we better be aware of it, okay?
• 1:21:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So to me, the issue is there are sages, there's is wisdom, we better grab the wisdom of the ages.
• 1:21:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:21:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And tie that to this unbelievable networking power structure.
• 1:22:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or else it is going to topple towards chaos and break the whole goddamn thing or topple towards totalitarianism and turn us into, you know, board like cyber, scottal windows.
• 1:22:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: The best hope through is to recognize those two nasty alternatives and wisely connect ourselves to nature because we're not doing wise on Mother Nature to each other and to the digital as we try to build the structure.
• 1:22:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the developmental system that I see.
• 1:22:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of evidence for that, that doesn't, that's not like we're praying any, you know, gods here in any meaningful and specific concrete way, but it's like, hey, there's a wisdom of the moment.
• 1:22:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a chyrotic moment, better be aware of the developmental processes, and we can actually see them when we look through the lens of a tree of knowledge very clearly.
• 1:22:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's obvious.
• 1:22:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so we need to get on the same page.
• 1:22:50
  [SPEAKER_04]: Do you have, as we move towards the end of our comment, I mean, I'm quite, how do I put this touched?
• 1:22:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I can feel that chaotic moment, you know, within it, you know, we're totally in it.
• 1:23:05
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I don't like it, Greg, you know, and I kind of like it, but I don't, you know, like, I remember be scared.
• 1:23:13
  [SPEAKER_04]: Be scared, Joel.
• 1:23:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: Be scared.
• 1:23:15
  [SPEAKER_04]: Like five, six years, seven years ago, I remember with all my friends feeling like, okay, the future's coming, you know, there is a popable sense of the future's coming, you know, and I actually felt
• 1:23:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: quite excited by that.
• 1:23:26
  [SPEAKER_04]: And then I don't know about two, three years ago, it just felt like the future was here and it was happening now.
• 1:23:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: And that was actually disturbing as well.
• 1:23:35
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, I'm willing to go back to that feeling of the future's coming.
• 1:23:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: So as you talk about this chaotic moment, I can resonate with that.
• 1:23:43
  [SPEAKER_04]: And I meet with my friends and we're all going like, yeah, how are you doing?
• 1:23:46
  [SPEAKER_04]: And we're like, yeah, I'm kind of good.
• 1:23:48
  [SPEAKER_04]: But I'm also, you know, I'm also like not
• 1:23:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, not good as well.
• 1:23:52
  [SPEAKER_04]: I'm just feeling a bit anxious or like freaked out.
• 1:23:56
  [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, so you know, you serve connections in nature and to people that just to me and I see that in people too.
• 1:24:06
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, everywhere I look people are like, hey, I'm just feeling called to be back in nature more and, you know, I just want to hang out with people and being connection.
• 1:24:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: I know it's how good that is for me.
• 1:24:17
  [SPEAKER_04]: You know, so
• 1:24:20
  [SPEAKER_04]: I guess I'm wondering if you have like invitations, you know, like in these, how do we orient to these chaotic moments?
• 1:24:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Part of things, yeah.
• 1:24:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, right.
• 1:24:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, right, according to the unit right there, we are right in it.
• 1:24:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, this is the cost of this is happening right now.
• 1:24:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And chat GPT is just a nice reminder.
• 1:24:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And COVID is also a nice reminder of how vulnerable we are.
• 1:24:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're, and so if you're not feeling anxious, you're not paying attention.
• 1:24:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, and then how to get right relationship to it is something that I've been working hard to do because because the, how we have achieved resonance with the large scale, so it's called the garden fractal problem.
• 1:25:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yet at the same time, stay also right resonance to my little life, because obviously I ain't changing climate change.
• 1:25:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if this thing's going off a cliff, I ain't stopping it.
• 1:25:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and when is it going?
• 1:25:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And how am I going to be?
• 1:25:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I mean, these are a wonderfully rich question.
• 1:25:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the bottom line is is that this is called in Utah's language is called the fifth joint point.
• 1:25:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so after five billion years ago, I'm a fifteen billion years.
• 1:25:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's only four others.
• 1:25:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Matter, life, mine, culture, and we are on the cusp of a digital, better cultural joint point.
• 1:25:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a big, fucking deal.
• 1:25:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so that's what you're feeling from a unified their perspective, okay?
• 1:25:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the question and the analogy that I say to people, you know, and, you know, I don't know about you, but I still feel a little anxiety on a regular airplane.
• 1:25:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like when they're when it's taken off and landing, I still get the little, oh, God, are we going down?
• 1:26:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Even though my culture of persons like you don't have safety things are, these things are like your bedroom.
• 1:26:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're about as likely to die on this as you are just in fact like they went several years and the only years in die life.
• 1:26:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can do you die as a hard attack, you know, and then other people around that they could save you.
• 1:26:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you're safer on a damn plane when you get.
• 1:26:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:26:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, here's what I think our global spaceship Earth at least at the culture of person plane level is, you know, my estimates is we got about a five percent chance of going down in the next thirty years.
• 1:26:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's my estimate.
• 1:26:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, how to put a subject investment on.
• 1:26:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I've tracked this a lot.
• 1:26:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a lot of global risk people.
• 1:26:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here's my sense.
• 1:26:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you were on an airplane and I would tell you, well, this is a long flight.
• 1:26:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a thirty year.
• 1:26:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: But and it's got a five percent chance of going down.
• 1:26:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: like as in down down so that your kids are in deep trouble.
• 1:26:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see how you don't feel impacted by that.
• 1:26:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's like real anxiety.
• 1:26:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: My little neurosis at a plane thing.
• 1:26:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my protoperson is like, all right, Greg, you're safer than you are in your bare plane.
• 1:26:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Go to sleep, you're fine.
• 1:27:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I do, because I can talk to my gut and thankfully my gut will listen.
• 1:27:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: But my talk, my gut now, my gut.
• 1:27:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the one in twenty.
• 1:27:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: You played Dungeon and Dragons, you know, twenty pops up pretty regularly.
• 1:27:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, oh my God.
• 1:27:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we should be anxious, okay?
• 1:27:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, the analogy is we're like on a by plane and while the sudden we're hitting the hurricane.
• 1:27:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and we have a buy plane.
• 1:27:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the question is, how do we understand our relationship to technology and each other?
• 1:27:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: You and I are the buy plane, and then multiply that.
• 1:27:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there are all these dials about what we are, what nature is, what this tidal wave of chaos that potentially coming is, and how we actually going to fly through it and get to the other side.
• 1:27:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you talk as be a good ancestor.
• 1:27:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to be part of the systems that sort of get together, recognize what the dials are and maintain the ships, direct oriented toward valued states of being through the chaos.
• 1:27:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the fundamental and how do we do that?
• 1:27:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we do that with the garden fractal?
• 1:27:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like how do we do it in this conversation?
• 1:28:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we do it in policy?
• 1:28:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we do it across all sorts of different ways of being at different magnitudes or radiuses of impact?
• 1:28:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the great question.
• 1:28:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: We can get oriented to where we are and we can have values about where we ought to be.
• 1:28:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what the fifth joint point is.
• 1:28:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is, in fact, the entire mission of the coin is what's the isness
• 1:28:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, both subjectively and objectively, and then what's the art?
• 1:28:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's ultimately, you rotate the coin to get is, you flip it to get odd.
• 1:28:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the work trying to do.
• 1:28:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to try to wake up to what is.
• 1:28:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, and then get oriented to what ought to be.
• 1:28:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And the great terror, and I don't know, you know, coaches tell me how to fix this.
• 1:28:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: People are not paying attention to the right things to.
• 1:28:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, okay.
• 1:28:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're not paying attention to the right things.
• 1:28:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 1:28:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: That mean, to just orient it and then misinform and then there's all of this polarization stuff around that, you know, and I mean, put it this way.
• 1:28:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If aliens were to show up tomorrow, everyone would be like, especially if they were threat, we would all be like, oh my God, and we all get together.
• 1:29:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are on a by plane.
• 1:29:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:29:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a chance it's going to go down.
• 1:29:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's all hands on deck cooperating to maintain this thing.
• 1:29:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: So if you ever want on one of the political polarization sites that's a good spreading misinformation because you know the other side is evil, that is not contributing to coordinating this by point.
• 1:29:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: You got to find out how to continue to at the distance level.
• 1:29:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: First off, I tell everybody, live in your own private garden, nurture beauty, good distance truth there.
• 1:29:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing to do that.
• 1:29:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if you have impact outside of that, how are you coordinating to orient towards being a good ancestor on the backup the twenty-first century?
• 1:29:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we should be asking ourselves.
• 1:29:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that to do that, we got to get in right relation to isn't odd.
• 1:29:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So ultimately, you talk is fundamentally about giving some framework, oriental stores isn't odd.
• 1:29:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are in a serious time.
• 1:29:59
  [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, as we come towards the end of our conversation, this, you're right, like people, there's so much, you know, I mean, I've heard John Vicki use that word bullshit and I can't remember specifically how he refers to the defiance bullshit, but there's a lot of bullshit around and, you know,
• 1:30:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: at least in the field of coaching what's happened.
• 1:30:28
  [SPEAKER_04]: One of the things that's happening is what is our duty or how much should we be a provocateur or bring in these
• 1:30:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: dynamics that are a play in the world into the coaching conversation.
• 1:30:45
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, either already there anyway, but yeah, and I think that's an ongoing conversation and people have different opinions on that.
• 1:30:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: Some people are like, yeah, we shouldn't bring any of that in.
• 1:30:58
  [SPEAKER_04]: And of course, you have to be careful about the agenda that you might impose upon a person.
• 1:31:03
  [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I don't want to do that, but at the same time,
• 1:31:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, well, that's why it's starting.
• 1:31:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: You talk philosophical coaching.
• 1:31:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't impose an agenda, but it says, okay, I want my commitments to cut through the bullshit.
• 1:31:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: It has three core values, dignity, well-being, and integrity.
• 1:31:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, integrity fundamentally is about honesty, honor, true seeking.
• 1:31:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it also tells you very much humans are justifying creatures that are trying to legitimize themselves in investments and influence so they're very vulnerable to bullshit.
• 1:31:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Me number one.
• 1:31:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right.
• 1:31:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: I was going to say I was going to name myself.
• 1:31:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 1:31:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, here I am.
• 1:31:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here folks.
• 1:31:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I built a unified theory of knowledge.
• 1:31:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on, you know, the first thing you should look at me is you that that's a fucking cartoon and you're a fucking quack.
• 1:31:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:31:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you should say to me.
• 1:31:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I embrace you for saying that.
• 1:31:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: And even bring Dave Snowden on and have him call me a fucking quack.
• 1:31:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
• 1:31:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm cipped by the way in academia.
• 1:31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: I live with the old convergence.
• 1:31:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: The whole point is that you want, you need a hard stealing structure.
• 1:32:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: or else you're going to be promoting bullshit, especially if you're going to do it large scale.
• 1:32:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have looked in the mirror, I have analyzed this, left and right, I do every day I wake up and say this thing is bullshit.
• 1:32:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And every day is actually, no, it's not actually energy matter like mine and culture.
• 1:32:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on, that's not bullshit.
• 1:32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
• 1:32:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not.
• 1:32:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we do need.
• 1:32:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: We do see things inside and out versus outside.
• 1:32:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And that is what science is.
• 1:32:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Come on.
• 1:32:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it is quantum mechanics in general relativity.
• 1:32:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it is chemistry.
• 1:32:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it is biology.
• 1:32:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And it is minded animals.
• 1:32:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are culture persons.
• 1:32:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I am just to find, and the digital is here.
• 1:32:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are potential trouble.
• 1:32:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's not bullshit.
• 1:32:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, relative to the political, I turn on CNN, I'm a leftist, turn on CNN, it's like, ah, the whole goddamn thing I just get, I don't watch anymore.
• 1:32:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean, a higher structure is just misguided.
• 1:32:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's misguided in relationship to what we need to be doing.
• 1:32:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're just straffiness from flying the plane.
• 1:32:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a plane folks, and we're all in.
• 1:33:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're all part of, we have to figure out how to fly.
• 1:33:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I don't know how you frame it, but you talk is like, listen, if you're going to come into you, you talk coaching.
• 1:33:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: I need, and this is why I don't do psychotherapy anymore, because I need you to see.
• 1:33:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can only operate from a philosophy that is oriented toward non-bullshit.
• 1:33:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: I can't because I can't enter in other philosophies.
• 1:33:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: I need, and now it's the time, there's too much at stake, there's too much risk, and we have to be.
• 1:33:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So that's where my life is.
• 1:33:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: My soul and spirit is basically like, well, this is what I have to do.
• 1:33:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now I'm right other people.
• 1:33:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to join this, and of course, I'm not like a culture or anything.
• 1:33:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if whatever aspects of this are bullshit, they're going to be disintegrated in replace because integrity is absolutely central.
• 1:33:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Fundamental.
• 1:33:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 1:33:51
  [SPEAKER_04]: Hey Greg, I have to bring this to a close because I've got something coming up in a minute, but I'm totally enjoying your passion and your dedication to this, you know, obviously it just shines through you and you know, I'm disturbed by our conversation and yet, you know, in a way I was already disturbed so in a way I feel kind of
• 1:34:14
  [SPEAKER_04]: strangely empowered because of the contextualization that you're providing for what's happening right now.
• 1:34:23
  [SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I just want to thank you and it feels like we could probably talk for another three or four hours about the different aspects of
• 1:34:32
  [SPEAKER_04]: of what you're doing and I'm really, I'm really open to and really interested in how you formulate or begin to form, you talk coaching and I think that's a really rich conversation so yeah I look forward to hearing more about that and I'm really open to hosting
• 1:34:53
  [SPEAKER_04]: You've been that as well on the podcast again.
• 1:34:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I really appreciate that tool.
• 1:34:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I will look for your wisdom.
• 1:34:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I deeply feel a scene here and feel a held and seen here.
• 1:35:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate your hosting.
• 1:35:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I mean, I'm a theorist and a clinician.
• 1:35:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 1:35:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Those are the two things that I'm excel at.
• 1:35:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of leading in terms of cultivating societal change in terms of having coaching, rising visions and moving people.
• 1:35:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am looking to people of those kinds of talents.
• 1:35:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I look forward to us.
• 1:35:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: have additional conversations along those signs and building bridges between the systems because it is.
• 1:35:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are in a major, we interesting time, and I mean that with all of its layers.
• 1:35:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's an enormous amount of hope on the other side.
• 1:35:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that we can upgrade our operating systems and fly through this storm if we do it right.
• 1:35:39
  [SPEAKER_04]: Amen to that.
• 1:35:40
  [SPEAKER_04]: Well, then one other thing, Greg, where can we find out more about your work?
• 1:35:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so Unified Theory.org, you can go to that.
• 1:35:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll send a link.
• 1:35:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's also, please, I'll send another link.
• 1:35:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're just starting what's called a circle community.
• 1:35:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You talk circle.
• 1:35:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: So your circle is sort of like an advanced Facebook.
• 1:35:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've got about two hundred members there.
• 1:35:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We just launched it.
• 1:36:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But we really are trying to bring folks together from all walks of life who basically are sick of the bullshit, interested in integrity, well-being, and dignity, and the chaotic nature of the moment, and think that, hey,
• 1:36:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: energy matter like mine culture into the digital sounds like a reasonable frame of reference for moving forward.
• 1:36:19
  [SPEAKER_04]: Wonderful, wonderful invitation.
• 1:36:21
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thanks Greg.
• 1:36:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
• 1:36:22
  [SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
• 1:36:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: Here we are.
• 1:36:24
  [SPEAKER_04]: We're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:36:25
  [SPEAKER_04]: Just do a heads up again.
• 1:36:27
  [SPEAKER_04]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising.com.
• 1:36:34
  [SPEAKER_04]: Put your name in the sign up box there.
• 1:36:36
  [SPEAKER_04]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
• 1:36:41
  [SPEAKER_04]: And just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.