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Why Church Renewal Fails (and What Actually Works) · Future Christian

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>> Khris Vos: Foreign.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast. A
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conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas
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and the future of the church. Welcome to the
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Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond
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Jr. Is in conversation with Chris Boss and Larry
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Durenbos. Chris is the campus pastor of a church
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Restart in Lake Worth, Florida that is part of
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Sunlight Community Church campuses of South
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Florida. He is also the director of the center for
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Church Renewal. Previously he spent 20 years
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leading a church plant, Crossroads Community
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Church in Indiana. On his journey of church
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planting, he spent time learning from and training
0:50
other church planters. Currently in the work of
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renewal, he has come alongside other renewal
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leaders. His greatest passion is building
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relationships with people who don't know Christ.
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He is married to Deborah and together they have
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four children and four grandchildren. Larry loves
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and is committed to the local church. He is an m
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experienced pastor, church planter and leader. He
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began his ministry in New Mexico. In 1993, Larry,
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along with a core group of seven families, began
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Evergreen Ministries in Michigan. Evergreen is an
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outward facing church that serves its community
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and the world. Larry served as director of Vibrant
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Congregations, helping congregations discover
1:33
their God given, hope filled future. Presently he
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is president of Imagine Church and director of the
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New Horizons Project. In his free time, Larry
1:43
loves hanging out with his wife Linda, professor
1:45
at Oakland University, exploring cities and
1:48
viewing British tv. He also works out, but he does
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not enjoy that at all. Linda and Larry have two
1:56
children, Gail, a professor at Dort University and
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Chris, a special needs young man who inspires
2:02
many. A reminder before we start today's
2:05
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
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the podcast, leave a review and share Future
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Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren Martha
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and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
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email@laurensonediapro.com with comments,
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support and voice mean a lot to us in making this
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independent podcast possible.
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>> Loren: I suppose since there's two of you work how you
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look on my screen. So Chris, you're just to my
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side.
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So Chris, let's begin with you. Share kind of
2:48
about your journey of faith, what that looked like
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in the past and what that looks like today.
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>> Khris Vos: Yeah, it really started for me, uh, in early,
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early adolescence with uh, loneliness. I was
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really felt isolated. I had a severe case of acne
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that made me feel kind of like a leper. Uh, among
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my Pryse and through my parents, uh, their
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faithfulness and their brokenness, I discovered a
3:16
friendship in God and that really transformed my
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future and my life. Yeah, currently I think one of
3:26
the you asked about spiritual practices. I think
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one of the things that I'VE added to my spiritual
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routine is listening to the psalms set to music.
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And that's really been, uh, a great growing thing
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for me in my spiritual life.
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>> Loren: So, yeah. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Larry,
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how about you?
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>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah, I was blessed to be raised in a pastor's
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home. And so I'm a pastor's kid and, uh, walked
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that pathway of faith, uh, with a family that
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managed to do that balance of being kind of in the
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fishbowl and at the same time allowing us freedom
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to be who we were. And so we're really thankful
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for that, uh, upbringing in the faith. And when I
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think a little bit about spiritual practices,
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mine, um, constantly shift. And so at certain
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times I'm deeply into prayer, other times I'm
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deeply into the scriptures and, um, just all the
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different practices. And I'm a person who kind of
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needs that shift to kind of keep things kind of,
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uh, fresh and alive for me. Uh, and right now I've
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just started doing a read through the Bible using,
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uh, the Bible project materials. And uh, so, yeah,
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just that whole flavor of movement and so on in my
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spiritual life.
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>> Loren: Awesome. Thanks for sharing all that.
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So let's begin the conversation with this.
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Actually, I'm thinking, um, Larry and Chris,
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you'll have to correct me here or clarify, but
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they come from the Christian Reformed Church and
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the Reformed Church of America, or at least those
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are the contexts you both work within. So for our
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listeners maybe who are unfamiliar with those
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contexts, those traditions, uh, Larry, can you
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just share a little bit about those traditions?
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>> Khris Vos: Sure.
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>> Larry Doornbos: So the Reformed Church in America is actually the
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oldest denomination, Protestant denomination in
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the United States. Uh, and so if you go to the
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west coast or to the east coast, you'll find, uh,
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churches that have a history of more than 400
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years. Uh, and we've had the joy of working with
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some of those churches along the way. Uh, and the
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Christian Reformed Church is actually kind of an
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offshoot of the RCA in the 1800s, late 1800s. Um,
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and Chris and I have been part of the Christian
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Reformed Church that whole time. Um, I'm now an
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RCA pastor. Uh, but there's a lot of similarities
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between the two denominations. Uh, and we get to
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serve those denominations, but also, uh, through
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part of our project, we also serve non
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denominational churches and Pentecostal churches.
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>> Loren: Yeah, Chris, I have to ask this as someone who
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this podcast and myself, we are primarily situated
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within like the mainline tradition in America. And
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this is a question that I always ask folks. Like,
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I ask about folks who I know who are like LCMS
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Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. Uh, same
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question. Like D.O. c. Does. Does the RCA and CRC
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consider themselves part of the mainline?
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>> Khris Vos: That's a great question, and I think one we're
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continually wrestling with. Yeah, we like to see
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ourselves, uh, both, both in the mainline
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tradition as well as in the evangelical camp. So,
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yeah, we're. We like to ride the fence on that
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particular issue.
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>> Loren: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. I, uh, was just
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reading a book by, by a United Methodist author.
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Hopefully will be on the podcast soon. Leavitt
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Weems talks about how Methodism really, in many
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ways should be seen as sort of, I think, a bull
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fan, like you said there.
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Well, let's talk about this. I somehow came across
7:03
Yalls work and thought this would make for an
7:07
interesting conversation as, uh, this is a podcast
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where I'm always interested. Martha and I are
7:11
interested in the future of the church and what's
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happening to seek revitalization, renewal. So I
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Keuss begin by talking about the center where you
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all work, where you're all a part of, kind of how
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that came to be and what that, uh, emphasis is on
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now.
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>> Khris Vos: Yeah, um, I'll start with my, uh, own journey
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there, actually. Keith Doornbos, Larry's brother,
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was the, uh, is our founder and he's still on our
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teaching team, though he's retired. Uh, but I kind
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of came to the whole journey, um, not willingly. I
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was a church planter for 20 years, and God really
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blessed that church plant in Northwest Indiana
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where I was at. And I had a little bit of that
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arrogant edge of church planters that they
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sometimes have, and kind of never kind of bought
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into that, saying that we like the same church
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planting. It's easier to give birth than it is to
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raise the dead.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Khris Vos: And then, then God called me to a renewal work,
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really a, uh, replant here in South Florida. And
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then Keith and Larry invited me into the teaching
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team for what we call the Renewal Lab. That's kind
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of our flagship ministry of the center for Church
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Renewal. And I just, I began to see pastors and
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leaders who were really passionate missional and
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wanted to see renewal in their churches. And as we
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began to teach some of the principles that we do
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in the Renewal Lab, they were just eating it up
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and working in every way possible to apply these
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principles in their local setting. And my heart
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just was moved to say there are so many churches
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and so many local pastors out there that need
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encouragement, that need some guidance and some
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coaching along the way in the very difficult
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journey of church renewal. And that just really
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moved my heart uh, to be a part of it. And
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eventually God positions things so that I'm now
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the director of the center for Church Renewal. And
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it's been a blessing for me to be a part of it for
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the last two years.
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Larry, maybe can give you a little bit more of the
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early beginnings.
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>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Great.
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>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah. So, uh, we started in about 2013. Uh, I was
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working at the time for something called Christian
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Reformed Home Missions, um, and my brother was
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beginning this journey, and we began to think
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about what's it look like to create churches that
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follow renewal Pathway and make their way towards
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a healthier future. And so we worked on that
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together about 2013, 2014, uh, when we began, we
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were connected to Calvin Theological Seminary in
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Grand Rapids, uh, and were there for a few years
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and then became, uh, an independent organization,
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uh, under, uh, what's called 222 multiply. Um, and
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so we've served about 120 churches and over 1,000
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leaders, uh, over the years we've been together.
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And, uh, it's just been a great journey. Uh, we
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work with wonderful people. And, uh, kind of our
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big move right now is we're working with Native
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American congregations and Latino congregations in
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renewal and with groups in, um, Michigan, Florida,
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uh, Los Angeles and New Mexico.
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>> Loren: So, Larry, I'm curious. Like, my hunch is that
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regardless of the context or regardless of the
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tradition or denomination in America, especially
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amongst like, uh, predominantly white
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congregations, like, I imagine many of the
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challenges are the same. And I'm curious, is that
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suspicion accurate regardless of tradition?
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>> Larry Doornbos: You know, I think it is. So as we've gone through
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this journey, uh, we talk about, uh, the big three
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and the hidden one when it comes to almost all
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churches we work with. And so the big three are
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most churches lack either a vision or a calling.
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Uh, they lack a discipleship pathway. And they
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haven't figured out how to bridge people from
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their community back into the life of their
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congregation. And then we talk about a hidden one,
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which is, uh, what's the culture of the church?
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Because culture will destroy almost everything
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else into a real process. And so there are. So we
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found that along the way, um, that really when we
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start talking to congregations and work with them,
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that it's these big three things that they need to
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focus in on and then also discover the culture of
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their church, which is either blocking the way of
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the renewal journey or giving them, uh, health
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towards that renewal journey.
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>> Loren: What was that third one you said?
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>> Larry Doornbos: Um, the third one is connecting people from their
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community back into the life of the congregation.
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>> Loren: Tell me More about that.
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>> Larry Doornbos: So what we find, often these churches do a really
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good job, if you will think about a bridge that
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they bridge to their community through all kinds
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of things. You know, they. They have a food
12:15
pantry, they do vacation Bible school. They, uh,
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have some events or something like that. Right.
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But they've not figured out how do we take that
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bridge and not only go this way, but have it come
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back this way so that people become part of the
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life of the congregation. And so that's the really
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difficult thing. Most congregations do a really
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great job of things in their community, but they
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never figured out how do we actually build the
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relationships and the connections that move those
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people from where they were into the life of the
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congregation and into faith.
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>> Loren: Let's stay on this for a moment, Chris, because I
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find this. I'm definitely seeing this or, uh,
12:53
recognizing this trend too, because obviously
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people understand, broadly speaking, lacking a
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vision. Most people, I think, understand lacking
13:02
discipleship. And I think anybody who's tried to
13:04
lead a church, an unhealthy church, understands
13:06
how much culture can make or break your efforts.
13:10
But this, this. I'm intrigued by this point about,
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uh, if I'm thinking about it visually of like, you
13:19
know, like you said, the bridge back to the
13:20
church. Because tons of churches will do lots of
13:24
stuff for outreach. But certainly depending on
13:27
the. The context, I mean, there is certainly, I
13:31
want to acknowledge, within some traditions, some.
13:33
They might even have some angst. I'll just be
13:36
frank. In some of the conversations I have with
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different church leaders in different contexts,
13:40
there might be some angst about expecting any kind
13:43
of, uh, return or folks to come from the
13:47
community. Uh, but what have you seen? How have
13:50
you helped churches think intentionally about, um,
13:55
making pathways, like you said, back to the
13:57
church?
13:59
>> Khris Vos: Well, nothing transforms a culture like genuine
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relationships with people who are far from Christ,
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whether, uh, those people come to the church or
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not. Uh, if we can encourage and train people to
14:14
build relationships, intentionally build
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relationships and be in environments where they're
14:22
with people who are far from Christ and really
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listen to them and understand their perspective,
14:28
their worldview. Man, that does wonders to
14:32
transform the culture of a church. To say, wow, I
14:37
never thought about that. Uh, you know my good
14:41
friend Pat, uh, who I talk about in the lab a lot,
14:44
he is not a Christian. Uh, his wife gets into our
14:48
church, so he's a regular part of it. But after
14:51
about three years of attending our church, he said
14:54
to me, chris, I gotta tell you, I don't hate
14:56
church anymore. And it was like, wow, that was
15:00
just a. It was so encouraging to me. But at the
15:02
same time, it's like, man, you've come a long way.
15:06
What's going on in your head when it comes to
15:08
church? You know? And how do we begin to shape men
15:12
ministry in a way that addresses some of those
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concerns or those misconceptions about what church
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is? And if you can get more and more people in the
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church to have those kind of relationships, it
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really begins to change their thinking about
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what's important and what's a priority in the
15:30
church. So hopefully that answered your question.
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>> Loren: Yeah, I'm thinking, too, about, like, I was just
15:37
at a church that past week that has a ministry. It
15:41
sits right next to a big high school, and they
15:43
have an intentional ministry effort where they
15:46
welcome kids come over from the high school during
15:49
the lunch break to hang out, get snacks, whatever.
15:53
And the church is very explicit that they said,
15:56
like, we're not expecting, you know, immediate
16:00
attendance in youth group or Sunday morning. Like
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they said, we recognize this is a long game. So
16:07
how much. How much is that important, Larry? Just
16:10
to set maybe realistic expectations, like, I mean,
16:14
gosh, Chris, three years and the, you know. Three
16:18
years.
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>> Khris Vos: Yeah,
16:23
>> Larry Doornbos: I think. Sorry about that. I had a little
16:25
interruption on my computer.
16:27
Um, a couple of things come to my mind. One is
16:31
that, um, when churches talk about, um, bridging
16:35
back into the church, um, my first thought about
16:40
that is we bridge people back into the church. Not
16:43
for something that we're getting or getting their
16:45
attendance or getting their, you know, time or
16:47
getting their money. We're bridging them back into
16:50
the church because the church has good news and
16:52
good life.
16:53
>> Loren: Yeah, Right.
16:54
>> Larry Doornbos: And so when we talk to people, what we want to be
16:57
able to say is, we invite you in, not because, in
17:00
a sense, we need you here. We need your money,
17:03
your time, but we believe this is a place of life,
17:07
and we want to make sure that you find this place
17:09
of life. And Chris has this in his congregation.
17:13
Uh, one of the congregations that I served had
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this.
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>> Khris Vos: Uh.
17:16
>> Larry Doornbos: But we have had a strong recovery ministry. Right.
17:19
And we could literally say, in our church, there
17:21
are people alive today that wouldn't be because
17:24
they're part of that recovery ministry. And as
17:27
they became part of that recovery ministry and
17:29
they found life there, they also began to find
17:31
life in the church. And so I really want to say,
17:35
um, you know, for those high school kids, no,
17:37
we're not. We're not trying to get you here
17:38
because we want your bodies in pew.
17:40
>> Loren: Right, Right.
17:41
>> Larry Doornbos: We want you here because this is a place of Life.
17:44
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:44
>> Larry Doornbos: And. And so part of the, the work of the
17:47
congregation is to make sure that it's a place of
17:50
life, uh, and that it becomes a draw because of
17:55
that life, rather than saying, oh, you ought to be
17:58
here, but there's no life here.
18:01
>> Loren: Yeah. I'll say this because this is my podcast and
18:04
I can offend my listeners, um, who, you know, I
18:08
tend to have a lot of folks on the mainline side
18:12
and the main line, there are some, certainly some
18:15
liberal sides to the mainline. And I think this
18:18
can be a challenge, is that there's a doubt of
18:23
whether the church has life. Uh, I'll just be
18:25
frank. So I think, like, that's hard, you know,
18:28
that's gonna be hard to overcome, especially
18:30
because inevitably when that is doubted, it
18:34
becomes the first part. What you said it's because
18:36
we need you. Like, we need you to prop up our
18:39
dying institution, which never works. So, you
18:45
know, I want to clarify, I want to emphasize that,
18:48
but I think that's such an important point is
18:51
like, if you don't really believe that you have
18:53
something to offer, like, it's not going to work.
18:56
Mhm.
18:58
>> Khris Vos: And that takes me to one of the challenges I
19:01
thought of that I think a lot of churches faces is
19:04
that they're more eager to survive from the
19:08
mission than they are to die for the mission. M.
19:12
And that's a struggle. You know, it's a tension
19:15
that I. That we deal with, with people and we, we
19:18
try to get to that place where we want to do
19:21
whatever it takes to bring the gospel to our
19:25
community. And if that means our death, so be it.
19:29
But that's not an easy place to get to.
19:33
>> Loren: Yeah. Because like, I'm sure y' all see this all
19:36
the time, where it inevitably that the unstated
19:39
mission becomes just survival. Like, it's not like
19:43
we're trying to share the gospel or reach our
19:45
community, whatever. It's just like survival is
19:47
the mission.
19:48
>> Khris Vos: Yeah.
19:49
>> Loren: Which certainly is not helpful or healthy for
19:51
anybody.
19:53
I'm curious, I'm curious about this, Chris. Like,
19:56
where do you see churches most often misdiagnosing
20:00
their problems. So I mean, certainly there's some
20:03
like, lag measures, to use that word, I would
20:05
think. Like attendance is a lag measure. Uh, you
20:09
know, lacking of leadership is a lag measure. But
20:12
like, I'm convinced it's probably more lead
20:15
measures. Uh, what, like, what do you see? Like
20:19
what churches. They're pointing the wrong thing is
20:23
a problem, I Keuss is what I'm saying.
20:25
>> Khris Vos: Yeah. I think it is so easy for A church to have
20:31
no indication that we're making disciples. And yet
20:37
we have good attendance, we have good finances.
20:40
You know, we have good worship on the weekends.
20:43
And, uh, yet we, we can look back at our history,
20:47
and there's no evidence that we're making more and
20:50
better disciples. And that's part of our mission
20:53
statement at the center for Church Reform Renewal
20:55
is we want to help churches may be intentional,
20:58
intentionally, missionally, and make more and
21:00
better disciples that transform lives and
21:02
communities for Christ. And I think it's amazing
21:05
to me, even in my own ministry, I've spent a lot
21:08
of years measuring, uh, the wrong things. And like
21:13
you said, we, we use that language of leading and
21:16
lagging indicators in, in the renewal lab. And I
21:20
think we try to help churches say, let's measure
21:24
the right things. How are we raising up more? So
21:28
we're adding, you know, new people from, to the
21:33
kingdom who were far from God. Uh, so we're adding
21:35
more, but we're also bringing people deeper. And
21:38
that's one of the things that Covid just exposed
21:41
in the Western church, right? Is that all of a
21:44
sudden we cut millions of people from the church
21:47
who said, uh, I Keuss I don't need church. And,
21:49
uh, it was so clear that we are focusing on the
21:53
wrong things. And so we try to say discipleship
21:57
and growing people deeper. More and deeper is the
22:01
center. And how do we measure that? And we try to
22:03
help give churches tools so they know, are we
22:07
making more and better disciples?
22:10
>> Loren: Larry, let's stay on this discipleship thing,
22:12
because this is something that I've been thinking,
22:14
thinking about, about even more generally. Like, I
22:18
saw this. I'm trying to pull it up on my phone. I
22:21
saw this tweet or post, Gosh, oh, yeah, here it
22:27
is. And as someone was saying again, the bugaboo
22:30
of church attendance you guys probably encounters
22:33
all the time travel, sports. And I want you to
22:37
listen to this. This guy gives some, like, uh,
22:41
bullet points about travel, sports, guaranteed
22:44
family time every weekend, tour the entire
22:47
country, see the sights. Kids gain athletic skills
22:51
and priceless memories, chance at scholarships.
22:55
Kids stay out of trouble, make friends with people
22:58
in town. And he says this is supposed to be,
23:01
quote, unquote, bad, asking a question. And I just
23:05
thought like, wow, is that, uh, not just so
23:09
perfectly summarized that more and more families
23:15
are looking at other things to form or disciple
23:19
their kids?
23:23
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah, we had that a lot. Uh, as I was, as I was
23:27
pastoring, right, we were kind of at the front end
23:30
of that whole movement, which has gotten more and
23:32
more uh, over the years. And, um, one of my fellow
23:37
pastors on, uh, staff, uh, would say to me, he
23:39
was. He was a guy who got a scholarship playing
23:41
basketball and all this kind of stuff. And, and he
23:44
said, you know, he could talk. Talk all they want
23:46
about scholarships. You know, how many of those
23:47
kids are actually going to get a scholarship? M.
23:50
And so it's a little bit of an excuse, but I
23:53
think, you know, one of the things the church has
23:55
to figure out is we can say what we want. Uh,
24:00
families are going to do what they're going to do.
24:02
And so in that context, um, how do we disciple
24:06
people who are there intermittently and kids who
24:12
are there intermittently? And, um, there's a book,
24:17
ah, called Imagine Church. And he talks about
24:22
recognizing that when we're at work, God wants to
24:24
disciple us at work. And he begins to talk about
24:28
how do we work that, um, how do we think with
24:31
people in their jobs towards discipleship. And I
24:36
would say that if we're going to wisely live into
24:39
this reality, we're not going to shame people
24:43
probably out of it.
24:44
>> Loren: Right, right.
24:44
>> Larry Doornbos: Uh, so how do we then, ah, begin to say, so how do
24:48
we disciple families that are living that reality?
24:52
Because we're not going to force them to change.
24:55
But just like, we start talking about what your
24:58
work is a place of discipleship. So if your
25:00
weekend's a place of discipleship and you're gone
25:03
20 weekends a year, um, how do we disciple you and
25:07
disciple your kids in that context? And that calls
25:10
for, you know, a whole different way of us looking
25:13
at this. And, you know, this as well, Loren But,
25:16
you know, most people now, if they show up to
25:18
church once out of six weeks, they say, you know
25:21
what? I'm a member of that church. I'm faithful.
25:23
Right. And, you know, in years past, I mean, you
25:26
know, in Chris, in my tradition, it was Sunday
25:29
morning and Sunday evening.
25:30
>> Loren: Right.
25:31
>> Larry Doornbos: And. And then you had oncers. Right. And they just
25:33
came once a week, and now it's once every six
25:36
weeks. And so we have a whole different pathway
25:39
that we have to think about when it comes to
25:41
discipleship and how we work in the realities that
25:44
we're doing ministry in. And sometimes I think we
25:48
always tried to battle against that, and I think
25:50
eventually we said, we're not going to win that
25:52
one. So how do we do this differently?
25:54
>> Loren: Yeah. First of all, as someone who grew up
25:56
independent Baptist and had evening church on
25:59
Sundays, I'm thrilled to hear I'm not. Was not the
26:01
only one. Who else? Who else what other tradition
26:05
did that? So I Keuss you all.
26:08
I want to ask about Chris, like, what's the
26:12
biggest thing? Because I think this is so often
26:15
what happens in. In struggling churches or
26:17
churches seeking renewal is just like. It just
26:20
becomes like a. Let's throw some things at the
26:22
wall, see what sticks. How do you move from trying
26:25
new things to actual transformation in culture and
26:29
identity?
26:31
>> Khris Vos: Yeah, well, we do encourage them to try new
26:34
things, but at the core, core of what we encourage
26:37
is, uh, that the gospel is at the center of
26:40
everything. So that it's not innovation for the
26:43
sake of innovation, it's innovation for the sake
26:45
of the gospel. And that we really begin, uh, with
26:51
helping them understand. How do we put the gospel
26:53
at the center of everything? In our preaching, in
26:56
our relationships with people, uh, in our
27:00
decision, discipleship, how does that shape who we
27:03
are? And so that the forms, whatever the forms
27:07
might take, you know, whatever program or idea we
27:10
might have, that it's grounded firmly in the
27:14
gospel. And in some ways that sounds. Yeah, I
27:18
mean, we're rediscovering the first love, as John
27:22
would say in revelation. Right. It's like you've
27:25
held on to you, not forgotten your first love. And
27:28
that is the gospel at the heart of everything. And
27:30
I think it's amazing to me that everybody knows
27:35
that. I think, uh, at least most of the churches
27:38
that we work with, I think that's. That's, you
27:42
know, that's not surprising to them, but it's how
27:45
they apply that and how that really looks on a
27:48
practical basis. We really. There's some real
27:53
transformation that we see happen in the lives of
27:56
leaders and, uh, elders and deacons that come
28:00
alongside the point leader, because we work with
28:03
both in the renewal lab. So, yeah, just bringing
28:07
them back to that core piece, I think, is really a
28:10
huge part of what we do.
28:13
>> Loren: Larry, let's stay on this. I'm thinking about.
28:17
Oftentimes I've seen where a church wants to try
28:20
this big sort of moonshot thing, and I think there
28:24
can kind of be this sense that a struggling church
28:28
will try something big and bold, and it doesn't
28:32
succeed, doesn't land, and then they're even more
28:36
reticent to try something again in the future. So,
28:40
like, practically speaking, what does your
28:42
suggestions, uh, look like for churches and trying
28:46
new things?
28:47
>> Larry Doornbos: So we do a couple of things. We talk about
28:49
creating a healthy church culture, which is a
28:52
culture of grace and permission that we treat each
28:54
other with grace that God and Christ treat us
28:57
with, but also a culture, um, of permission where
29:01
we are permitted to try new things and fail at
29:04
them. Um, but we also probably more connected to
29:09
that, but we talk about short term wins, so we
29:12
don't, we don't talk about moonshots. We talk
29:15
about building a number of short term wins that
29:19
give people confidence, um, that they can try new
29:22
things. And some of those things will work, and
29:23
some of those things won't work, but it's not the
29:25
end of the world because they haven't done a
29:27
moonshot. You know, I mean, you know, one example
29:30
of this is that we were working with a church that
29:32
wanted to increase their hospitality. Um, they
29:35
served poor coffee back in a fellowship room. You
29:39
had to walk to the front of the sanctuary through
29:40
a six single door to get into. You know, it's very
29:43
intimidating for guests in particular. And they
29:46
said, you know what, we're going to serve better
29:48
coffee and we're going to serve it in the narthex.
29:50
Well, ah, that's just a little thing. Right. It
29:52
cost them a couple hundred bucks to do better
29:53
coffee and so on. But for them, for the
29:56
congregation, they said, oh, something's changed,
29:58
something's happening. We, uh, had another church
30:00
that said, we're going to invite our neighbors to
30:02
come at Christmas time and just decorate the trees
30:06
outside our church and, and we'll have hot
30:08
chocolate and cookies and that kind of stuff. And
30:11
so we don't say shoot for the moon. We say find
30:15
some short term wins that build some confidence
30:17
that if they fail, you can say we're a place of
30:19
grace and permission. If they go, well, you can
30:21
say, let's celebrate. So we're, we're more
30:25
incremental rather than shoot for the moon kind of
30:27
people.
30:28
>> Loren: Yeah. I want to stay on this culture of grace and
30:31
permission, especially the permission part,
30:35
because I imagine I'm making assumptions here, but
30:38
I imagine in churches you work with that have been
30:41
around for a while, or like many churches that I'm
30:44
familiar with, been around for a while, like a lot
30:47
of like, committees and structure and complicated
30:51
processes for like traditionally running things
30:54
through to make things happen. Like is a
30:59
restructuring or reallocation feeding of like
31:03
permission giving, like, what does that look like?
31:05
What do you advise churches to do for that?
31:08
>> Larry Doornbos: We actually spend, uh, one, uh, entire session of
31:12
our lab talking about structures.
31:14
>> Loren: Yeah.
31:14
>> Larry Doornbos: And Right. And talking about, uh, what makes for
31:18
healthy structures. What makes for permission
31:20
giving structures? Um, what size is a good size
31:23
for your board? Right. A lot of people think the
31:25
bigger the board, the better the board. And our
31:28
response is no, no, the smaller the board Usually
31:31
the better the board. And so we do spend time, uh,
31:34
walking through that and encouraging, uh, along
31:39
the pathway from the very first moment for
31:42
leadership to go back, uh, to the church and start
31:45
talking about becoming a permission giving
31:47
community and structuring themselves so that
31:50
permission can happen. And we know that's a real
31:53
struggle. We had somebody walk into our church,
31:57
uh, a number of years ago. We were building
31:59
something out and uh, the guy said, that looks
32:02
like a really great thing. What did it take to
32:04
have that done? And I said, well, it was in the
32:07
budget and we built it out. He said, that would
32:11
have taken three committees and five months at my
32:13
place. Right?
32:13
>> Loren: Yeah.
32:15
>> Larry Doornbos: And I said, wow. I said that's a structure that
32:18
isn't going to be a very healthy one for you to be
32:20
able to move forward.
32:21
>> Loren: Forward.
32:21
>> Larry Doornbos: So we try to work as best we can with
32:23
congregations to think about their structures, to
32:26
be able to move them forward in a place of
32:28
vitality.
32:30
>> Loren: Okay, Chris, uh, I gotta ask this then because I'm
32:33
thinking of a, uh, conversation I had with. So I'm
32:37
ordained in the Christian Church Disciples of
32:39
Christ, and I had a conversation with one of my
32:43
fellow, uh, uh, colleagues in the tradition Jared
32:46
Longbond's in. He uses words like, it's hard to
32:50
argue. Like our denomination, speaking for Jared
32:52
and I, is not structured for growth. Like, it's
32:55
just not. Because like you said, the structures
32:58
and the polity and the governance is just, I hate
33:02
to use the word backwards, but it's just, it's
33:04
meant for another time. Right. So, Chris, what is
33:09
thinking about the unique specifics of uh, you
33:13
know, CRC and rca, Whether it's theological,
33:16
whether it's historical governance practices.
33:19
Because this is like again, in my tradition, the
33:21
disciples. This is something I hear over and over
33:24
again where it's like, oh, we can't do that. Like,
33:26
that's not disciple, that's not our tradition. So
33:30
certainly, like there's some institutional, um,
33:34
friction, inertia. What is how, like. Because, uh,
33:40
I think this is something many traditions wrestle
33:42
with. So Chris, how do you help, how do you help
33:45
churches overcome that when it's like, oh, no,
33:47
this is not, we can't do this. This is not us.
33:50
>> Khris Vos: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question, Loren I think
33:54
we try to hold up examples, uh, you know, of what
33:59
it looks like when structure is designed for
34:03
function, you know, and for mission. And I think
34:06
we also acknowledge the challenge that a lot of
34:10
leaders face that that is not going to be an easy
34:13
thing to all of a sudden change uh, their
34:17
structure. And we acknowledge that our polity does
34:21
not lend itself to that kind of change, as you
34:24
said already, even though, you know, we in our
34:27
reformed tradition acknowledge, hey, polity is
34:32
changing all the time. We want it to be helpful,
34:35
and ordinarily is a word we use a lot in our
34:38
church polity. And yet, uh, it's as much the
34:42
history and, uh, the way we've always done things
34:46
that hold people in that place of we have to do it
34:49
this way in terms of structure. So you're not only
34:52
fighting church polity that was dissolved,
34:55
designed, as you said, ours too, for another age.
34:57
Right. For a certain size for his church. And so
35:02
we're, you know, it's an uphill battle to try and,
35:05
uh, help churches see a different vision for what
35:09
a missional structure looks like. Because we often
35:13
say to them, you know, structure doesn't promote
35:17
mission, but it will kill it. You know, generate
35:21
missional thinking, but it'll kill missional
35:23
thinking. So we try to give them good models of
35:27
what that looks like when structures are designed
35:32
for mission.
35:33
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah, if I can just throw something, too.
35:36
Um, we also talk to church, uh, leaders about
35:40
things that their people need through a change
35:42
process. Um, and I'm playing from memory, so maybe
35:47
Chris can help me a little bit here. But, you
35:49
know, we talk about things like, they need to know
35:51
that you care about them.
35:53
>> Khris Vos: Yeah.
35:53
>> Larry Doornbos: So as the process goes on, they need to know that
35:55
you care about them. Uh, they need to know that
35:58
certain things won't change, that there are poor
36:01
things in the life of the congregation, uh, that
36:03
won't change. Right. And so the gospel will be
36:06
preached, uh, you know, in our tradition, the, uh,
36:09
creeds of confessions will still be there. Uh, so
36:12
there's. There's some stability in the mix of
36:14
change. They need to know that there's hope. So
36:17
you need to be a person of hope. So you can say to
36:19
them, uh, we talk about, you know, you can't stay
36:21
here, but we can go here. So there's hope. Right.
36:25
And so one of the things we want leaders to be
36:27
able to do is to know what they need as leaders,
36:31
uh, as they step into a change process, um, what
36:34
things their congregation are going to need in
36:37
order for that change process to go forward. So
36:39
congregations that feel, uh, left behind, put out,
36:42
uh, ignored, whatever it may be.
36:46
>> Khris Vos: I think when churches understand the why, you
36:50
know, that it's not just changing our structure
36:53
because we need a more modern. It's really about
36:55
the mission, uh, then I think we see leaders
36:59
really step up and say, okay, we need to get
37:02
serious about making some changes because it's
37:04
going to make a difference for the kingdom.
37:08
>> Loren: Okay, this is not really off topic, but I got
37:10
asked for curiosity, like, what's the craziest
37:12
church structure you've seen? Like, I can't
37:16
remember which context I saw this in or read about
37:19
this, but I remember reading about one church
37:20
where like, I think it was like an elder based
37:24
structure, but elders, like, they would, they
37:28
would transition off being an elder, but then they
37:30
could reactivate for a lifetime, like their
37:33
eldership to come on and vote, which was just, you
37:37
know, uh, who could ever see that being a problem?
37:39
I mean, so, uh, for maybe help some listeners or
37:43
pastors commiserate that theirs actually is not
37:45
the worst. Like, what is the craziest structure
37:48
you have seen?
37:50
>> Larry Doornbos: So I'm not sure if it's the craziest one I've ever
37:52
seen, but one of the things we experience is that
37:54
churches hold onto the structure they had when
37:57
they were 200 and now they're 175 or they're 50 or
38:02
they're 50. And so one of the, one of the
38:04
churches, um, we were working with had an elder
38:07
board and then a pastoral care elder board and
38:11
they had about 60 people left at worship. And
38:14
their pastoral care alder board was 15 people and
38:17
their regular board was 10 people. Right. And so
38:20
they had 25 people involved in this leadership
38:22
structure. It was just insane because, I mean, how
38:26
do you get anything else done in the church? First
38:28
of all, when you got 25 people, how do you get
38:29
enough people to even fill those positions?
38:32
>> Loren: Right.
38:32
>> Larry Doornbos: Um, and it was just a completely broken structure.
38:36
Uh, but they had been 500 at one point, and so
38:39
they structured themselves for 500. And one of the
38:42
things we talk about is structuring yourself for
38:45
the size you are maybe one size larger. But, um,
38:49
that was one of the crazier structures I've seen.
38:53
>> Loren: I'm curious, do you, like, I kind of imagine like
38:56
once you're able to kind of help these leaders
39:00
process through and grasp the change that you're
39:03
offering, that there can almost be like a sigh of
39:06
relief because to me, like, there's nothing more
39:10
exhausting or, or even like energy sucking than
39:17
just especially for a new person who's like
39:21
engaged in the church, wants to be part of it, and
39:23
then it's like, oh, go sit in committee meetings
39:26
for three nights a week kind of thing.
39:32
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah. So, but one of the things, uh, again, uh,
39:35
Chris and I are both church planters, so Chris
39:38
planted in, um, Indiana, I planted in Michigan.
39:41
And we had the gift of creating our own structures
39:43
to a certain extent.
39:44
>> Khris Vos: Extent.
39:45
>> Larry Doornbos: Um, and so the structure that we created, that I
39:48
was at, had no committees. Um, and, uh, and. And
39:53
we turned. That turned out to be in many ways
39:56
largely a gift. Um, but at the same time we
40:00
started talking to our staff and saying, you don't
40:02
have a committee, but you need advisors. You need
40:05
to hear from the voice of the congregation. Right.
40:07
So you don't have to create a committee around
40:09
education, but you. But you should have a few
40:10
people out there who you can listen to and trust,
40:14
uh, their voice, uh, in that area of education.
40:17
But, um, yeah, too many churches. Um, I think it
40:22
was Rick Warren who said, you know, we have a
40:24
staff that administers so people can minister.
40:27
>> Loren: Yeah.
40:27
>> Larry Doornbos: And so our goal was always to say, how can we slim
40:31
down the administration enough so that people are
40:33
opened up for ministry.
40:36
>> Loren: Chris, I think what, uh, Larry shared there about
40:38
having not necessarily education committee, but
40:41
trusted advisors, even informally, is a great
40:44
point. Any other good kind of tips you'd add
40:47
there, relatedly?
40:49
>> Khris Vos: Yeah. I think one of the biggest challenge in our
40:52
structure is that there's this attitude that the
40:55
pastor is the employee of the council. And, um,
41:00
there's truth to that and there's good account
41:02
there. There should be accountability for the
41:04
pastor, but there needs to be a leader. And I
41:08
think in our structure in the crc, and maybe to a
41:11
lesser extent in this rca, but also there, there's
41:15
this attitude of, uh, you work for us, you're here
41:18
for a short time. We're going to be here long
41:20
before after you're gone. And I've heard of
41:23
pastors horror stories of being denied their. They
41:27
put in for vacation. Nope, that's a bad time. You
41:29
can't go then you can't go to that conference.
41:32
It's like, wow, that. But that's just a small
41:35
symptom of the problem of leaders are not allowed
41:39
to lead. And I think they're given all of the
41:42
responsibility and none of the authority. That is
41:46
a huge challenge when it comes to structure. If
41:49
you've got tons of responsibility but no
41:51
authority, that is a remedy for disaster.
41:55
>> Loren: Yeah. Burnout and dissatisfaction. I mean, at
41:59
minimum for the pastoral leader.
42:03
So, Chris, let me start with you here and then
42:06
Larry, you can follow up too. Like, what is one
42:10
truth that about church renewal that either a
42:15
pastor doesn't want to hear or the congregation
42:17
does not want to hear?
42:21
>> Khris Vos: Yeah. I think one of our teaching, uh, team Pastor
42:24
Scott Vanderplug who, uh, also designed a
42:28
discipleship process called 222 Disciple that we
42:31
use as a really good model in our lab, uh, that
42:35
really measures discipleship. But I think it's
42:39
difficult to hear. You have to go slow to go fast.
42:43
In other words, you're going to have to make
42:46
significant investments in the community and your
42:49
relationships in the community to build a
42:52
missional heart for yourself and for the church
42:56
and you. So that's, and that's, you know, you
43:00
don't see a lot of dividends from that. You, I
43:03
mean, you can, but it's slow going, you know, uh,
43:06
when you're building relationships with people in
43:08
the community, it's going to be a slow journey for
43:10
that, to bring people to church. And the same is
43:14
true for discipling people that, that are a part
43:17
of your church. That's a slow process, uh, when
43:21
you're. But if you're able to build into an
43:25
individual, multiple individuals as a pastor and
43:28
you disciple people who then in turn disciple
43:30
others, uh, that's going to pay dividends in the
43:34
long run. But it's going to be a slow process.
43:37
Process. And none of us want to go slow. Right.
43:40
It's a microwave culture.
43:42
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good, that's good.
43:44
Larry, how about you?
43:45
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah, and I'm going to play off that just a little
43:46
bit because one of the things we say to churches
43:49
is thousand days to renewal. And uh, the idea
43:53
there is that to shift your culture to begin to
43:56
think differently, to change that structure, all
43:58
those pieces, it takes at least a thousand days.
44:02
And our process is, is about a two year process.
44:04
And so we say to people, when you're done with us,
44:07
you still have three to 400 more days to go. And
44:10
most churches, as Chris is saying, you know, it's
44:12
a microwave culture. They want to say, well, if
44:14
we're going to renew, we're going to renew like
44:16
in, you know, six to eight months, right? And
44:18
everything's going to turn around and things are
44:20
going to go great and all that kind of stuff. And
44:21
we say, no, no, this is a long, you know,
44:24
obedience in the same direction. And uh, most
44:28
churches don't want to hear that. In most cases,
44:30
pastors don't want to hear that. And I think
44:33
leaders, as they go through this process, start
44:35
getting pushback because people saying, you've
44:37
been doing this for eight months now. Where are
44:39
the new people? Why aren't there? Why, you know,
44:41
why don't we have, you know, 73 new families and
44:43
all that kind of stuff and one of our responses to
44:46
them often is, how long did it take you to get
44:49
here?
44:50
>> Loren: Yeah, right.
44:51
>> Larry Doornbos: 30 years, 40 years, 50 years, uh, that brought you
44:55
to this space, um, and you want to get out of it
44:57
in five months. That's not how this works. And so
45:00
you need to have patience to continue the process
45:03
for that thousand days and actually beyond those
45:05
thousand days. So that's one of the hardest
45:08
things. It really is. We've got to go slow, to go
45:10
fast, and I think it's really difficult for
45:13
pastors and congregations to grab that.
45:16
>> Loren: So I mean, three years, let me just say that,
45:18
like, that's no joke. Like that's a legitimate
45:22
length of time.
45:23
So Chris, I've got to ask, and certainly Larry,
45:26
you're, you're welcome to chime in here too. Like,
45:32
how often do you find churches connecting with
45:34
you, wanting help when it's just, I don't want to
45:36
say too late because let's be frank, like, we
45:40
believe nothing is ever, you know, with God,
45:43
nothing is impossible. Right. But also, like, I'm
45:47
sure you encountered that, right, where there's
45:49
eight people left and no money in the bank.
45:52
>> Khris Vos: Mhm. Yeah. I'm working with a church in Homewood
45:55
right now that it's a Mennonite church that is,
45:58
ah, facing some of that, that reality in terms of
46:02
finances and numbers and yeah, that's not an easy
46:05
hill to climb. I don't want to sugarcoat that in
46:09
any way, but I think there is a hopefulness. We
46:13
also have what we call the Legacy Project as part
46:16
of the center for Church Renewal, where we help
46:18
churches that are facing that unique challenge of
46:23
should we renew or should we what we call complete
46:26
and bless? You know, in other words, how do we
46:29
leverage what we have right now for the kingdom in
46:33
the future? And Keith leads that. And it is one
46:37
of, it's a great ministry and we've been able to.
46:40
To come alongside a number of churches and not
46:44
come to them and say, here's what you should do,
46:46
but help them in a discernment process. We have
46:49
what we call a congregational assessment tool.
46:53
It's one of the first things you see when you come
46:55
to our website and it really helps churches
46:59
assess. Okay, here's where we're at. We've got
47:04
great concern, but there's hope for the future or
47:06
we're doing great or we're at a score where it's
47:10
like, maybe we should consider how we can complete
47:13
and bless. So we try to walk with churches through
47:17
that journey and be. Have honest conversations
47:19
with them. Uh, to face the reality. That's one of
47:22
the things we talk about in the renewal lab as
47:25
well is leaders, uh, need to define reality. What
47:28
is the current reality? Yeah, tell that story. And
47:32
then the next one is, what's our default future?
47:36
If nothing changes, what is our future? And then
47:40
finally, what is our God preferred future? What
47:43
does the future look like if we can implement
47:46
renewal in this context? So, Larry, anything to
47:50
add?
47:50
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah, I think that we find this all the time.
47:54
Churches have waited too long. Um, and one of the
47:58
challenges that we have actually is, is recruiting
48:01
churches into this process of renewal. Uh, because
48:04
most of them say, well, it's not that bad yet.
48:06
Right. I Keuss we're doing okay. And then, you
48:09
know, 18 months later they're going, oh my, this
48:13
is not good, we've got to do something. Um, and
48:16
the truth is that as we've gone through, you know,
48:19
these last 10, 12 years of being, uh, in this
48:22
renewal process is we've actually closed churches
48:25
down in the middle of their renewal lab. So
48:27
churches get to the point, they say, you know,
48:29
what we are recognizing now that we can't, we
48:33
can't go on. And so we've actually closed down
48:36
some churches. Um, one of our churches uh, decided
48:39
to be, uh, taken over by another church. Um, and
48:43
so the process also kind of unintentionally, uh,
48:47
in the renewal lab leaves some churches to just
48:49
say, yeah, we see where we're really at. And this
48:52
too late.
48:53
>> Khris Vos: Yeah.
48:54
>> Loren: Yeah.
48:55
Well, this is such an important and you know,
49:00
complicated topic in some ways. Anything else,
49:03
anything else that you'd want to share for, for
49:06
churches or leaders out there going through
49:09
wrestling with renewal, praying for renewal in
49:12
their churches. Chris, let's start with you again.
49:16
>> Khris Vos: Yeah. Just piggybacking off what Larry said. We
49:18
don't begin the renewal lab with jumping in
49:21
saying, here's what you need to do in terms of
49:23
mission, vision, value setting goals, strategic
49:25
planning. We begin with, let's start with
49:28
listening. Let's listen and we give them some
49:32
practices that they can do to listen to God
49:34
through scripture and through prayer. But we also
49:38
say, let's listen to our community. Let's do some
49:40
interviews with folks in our community that know
49:44
our community well, teachers, law enforcement,
49:47
community leaders. And let's hear, and let's see
49:51
as we listen to the community what bubbles up in
49:56
that process. And also we uh, say let's listen to
49:59
our people that are in our church. So we listen.
50:03
We call it four directional listening. And a lot
50:07
of churches and leaders, uh, don't want to Take
50:09
the time to do that. Right. Let's jump to what we
50:12
need to do. And we try to, you know, say to them,
50:16
let's. It's vital that we take the time to listen
50:20
first and then see where God leads.
50:24
>> Loren: Yeah, Larry?
50:26
>> Larry Doornbos: I think one of the things, uh, it's helpful for
50:29
churches to do and that I really want to encourage
50:31
churches to do is to, as Chris said earlier, to
50:35
name the present, we. And one of the ways that we
50:38
do that, um, is we use something called the church
50:40
life cycle, which you've probably seen, Loren
50:42
Right. Uh, but for churches to see in that life
50:48
cycle where they are, so they know they need to
50:50
act now. And the reality is, you know, in that
50:54
church life cycle, um, before you head over the
50:58
top and start going down the side when you're at
51:01
the top, is the time you start thinking about
51:03
renewal. If you're already down the side, you've
51:06
got a lot of work to do. And we say it's kind of
51:08
like, you know, when a rocket takes off, it takes
51:10
all kinds of energy to go, but once it gets going,
51:12
it's okay. But if it starts coming down again, it
51:15
needs a whole lot of energy to get back going. And
51:18
so one of the things I'd say to pastors and to
51:20
church leaders is, have you checked your church
51:23
life cycle? Because that's going to tell you where
51:26
you are and where you need to be going, uh, and
51:29
some next steps to take.
51:32
>> Loren: Well, this is great conversation. I appreciate
51:34
Yalls wisdom and insights here. Um, let's take a
51:39
quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
51:42
questions.
51:44
All right, we're back with Chris Voss and Larry
51:46
Dornbos. So thanks for this conversation. All
51:50
right, some closing questions. We always tell
51:51
folks you can take as seriously or not as you'd
51:54
like to. Uh, Chris, we'll start if you're pope for
51:59
a day. And again, you can take this seriously or
52:03
not you'd like to. What would you want to do with
52:05
that day?
52:07
>> Khris Vos: Well, I think, uh, for me, I'm going to take it
52:10
seriously. I'm going to say we're going to die on
52:12
the hill of church planting and church renewal.
52:16
>> Loren: Okay.
52:17
>> Khris Vos: I say that in the midst of a little bit of
52:18
frustration in the CRC where we've recently the.
52:22
Our agencies made a decision to cut funding for
52:24
church planting. Not m funding for the staff in
52:28
that agency, but funding for new church plants.
52:31
And it's like, man, for me, I just want to. Let's
52:34
cut everything but that.
52:36
>> Loren: Yeah.
52:37
>> Khris Vos: And so that. That would be Mine. That would be my
52:40
papal decree. Yeah.
52:42
>> Loren: Larry, how about you?
52:44
>> Larry Doornbos: I think if our quote for a day, uh, I want to have
52:48
churches, uh, grab a vision of full orbed
52:52
ministry. Um, I think sometimes, at least in the
52:57
context that Chris and I work in, uh, it becomes a
53:01
ministry of, you know, how do we get, um, either
53:04
going to talk about fire insurance or a pass into
53:06
heaven. And I want to see how do we help people.
53:10
Imagine a full orbed ministry that touches issues
53:14
of, you know, life for people, justice in the
53:17
world, uh, hope in the world. How do we make our.
53:20
How do we make our communities places of life, um,
53:23
rather than just places of fire insurance.
53:26
>> Loren: Love it. Yeah. Uh, okay. Theologian or historical
53:30
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
53:32
to life.
53:34
>> Khris Vos: St. Patrick has always been one of my favorites.
53:36
Okay. I mean, what a story. A guy enslaved and
53:41
then he is called God calls him to go to the
53:44
people that had enslaved him. And he's one of the
53:47
only missionaries, uh, in history that we know
53:50
that transformed a whole people group. And so I
53:55
would love to sit down and have a conversation
53:57
with, uh, St. Patrick.
54:00
>> Larry Doornbos: I would love to talk to George McDonald, who was,
54:03
um, one of the precursors of Caesar, C.S. lewis
54:06
and others. And uh, the way that he thought and
54:09
wrote, um, I'm just intrigued by that. And so I'd
54:12
love to sit down with George McDonald.
54:14
>> Loren: Yeah, I don't think I've ever gotten any of either
54:17
though. So this is good.
54:20
Uh, what do you think history will remember from
54:22
our current time and place?
54:26
>> Khris Vos: M. I think it's a time in history when the church
54:32
had an incredible opportunity for influence. And
54:37
instead it is withering. And that's not, you know,
54:42
that's, I Keuss just our time, um, in recent
54:46
history that we're seeing decline when we had
54:50
incredible, uh, status and influence. And that is
54:54
withered. And I think. I think nationalism is
54:57
going to play a part in that too. When people,
54:58
people look back on history, how nationalism, uh,
55:02
had such a significant role in the church and with
55:06
devastating effects.
55:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
55:09
>> Khris Vos: But a remnant rose from the ashes.
55:15
>> Larry Doornbos: Yeah. I think about Phyllis Tickle and uh, how she
55:17
talks about the shift every. I think it's 500
55:20
years m. Of what the church is and what it does.
55:23
And I think that this, uh, she saw this as a
55:26
tipping point, uh, in what she wrote. And I wonder
55:30
that as well, um, what will this moment be as a
55:34
tipping point. As Chris is talking about churches
55:37
that have kind of given themselves over to a
55:38
Christian nationalism and to that pathway, um, and
55:44
kind of sold themselves out to get power.
55:46
>> Loren: Um, ah.
55:47
>> Larry Doornbos: And how will this become a tipping point where
55:52
there's maybe even a divergence in the church
55:55
between a church that says we're after power and a
55:57
church says no, we're after the uh, good news of
56:00
life giving communities.
56:01
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. What do you hope then for the future
56:05
of Christianity?
56:08
>> Khris Vos: For me, first thing, I mean you've heard it a
56:11
number of times in our conversation, but renewed
56:14
discipleship?
56:15
>> Loren: Yeah.
56:15
>> Khris Vos: I think that the local church would have a clear
56:20
and intentional understanding of what biblical
56:24
discipleship looks like and that we would live
56:27
into that and lean into it.
56:31
>> Larry Doornbos: So to play off just a little bit, I think one of
56:34
the things we talk about, um, in our context is
56:38
um, restoring the practices of the early church
56:42
from Acts 2. And I would love to see a church that
56:45
reflects, reflects that Acts 2, 42, 47 context.
56:49
Um, and then we, we also talk about, uh, the
56:53
passage in Luke, uh, where Jesus says the spirit
56:56
of the Lord is upon me. And so I would love to see
56:58
a future of Christianity that reflects the
57:02
practices of Acts 2 and the ministry call of Jesus
57:05
in Luke 4.
57:07
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, great, great. Well, share how folks
57:10
can get in touch with the center and connect,
57:12
connect with you all, uh, share all that
57:15
>> Khris Vos: churchrenew.org that is our website and you can
57:19
find uh, everything that we do at the center for
57:22
church renewal@churchrenew.org and I know Loren
57:26
you're a fan of Andy Root. Ah, so we have Andrew
57:29
Root coming to our Church Now Cafe in Holland,
57:33
Michigan coming up in August. Uh, this will be
57:36
Larry, I think our third time hosting Andy. Yeah,
57:41
yeah, we uh, we've got so much out of those Church
57:45
Now Cafe conferences that we have in, in West
57:49
Michigan. And I should let Larry say that because
57:52
he, he knows Andy better than I do.
57:55
>> Larry Doornbos: I was just going to say, uh, every time Andy comes
57:58
out with a new book, we have him in for a
57:59
conference. That's kind of what it comes down to.
58:01
And so his latest book on evangelism, uh, uh, has
58:05
just really captivated us. And so he's going to
58:07
come in and talk about that. And it's a. We call
58:11
Church Now Conversations or Church Cafe, uh,
58:14
because Andy does some talking, but then we have
58:17
uh, church leaders gathered around tables and they
58:19
have conversations about how to implement that or
58:21
how to have those ideas come into the life of the
58:24
congregation. Um, so that's there. And the other
58:27
thing I'd like to just mention, Loren is that,
58:29
yeah, uh, we have, um, a Lilly Grant, uh, that
58:33
allows us to work with Native American, Latino
58:35
congregations. And, um, sometimes those
58:38
congregations, um, uh, sit a little bit outside
58:42
the renewal process. Uh, they don't have the
58:44
resources and so on. And so Lilly Grant allows us
58:47
to engage those congregations. And at the same
58:50
time, for us it's a learning process because we've
58:53
worked largely with Anglo congregations over the
58:55
last 12 years. So they're teaching us and we're
58:58
learning and we're teaching them. Um, and it's a.
59:00
It's a wonderful, wonderful space. And so if there
59:04
are congregations that are out there that are
59:06
either Latino or Native American interested in the
59:09
renewal process, um, again, churchrenew.org they
59:12
can find us. But we'd love to have a conversation
59:14
with them.
59:15
>> Loren: Okay, I have to ask then. Sorry, uh, to cut you
59:17
off, Chris. I have to ask then a. Uh. I'm trying
59:20
to get Andy on for his latest book again. So if
59:24
you talk to Andy Root, like, tell him I'm, like.
59:27
He is in his email sending his inbox from me,
59:31
trying to get another one scheduled.
59:33
Um, but seriously, I do want to ask this, even
59:36
though we're running along on time, so, like, uh,
59:39
I want to ask this in your work with. What do you
59:42
think your Anglo congregations could most learn
59:45
from your non. Some. Some from these non Anglo
59:49
congregations that you've worked with.
59:52
>> Khris Vos: One of the things that comes to mind with the
59:54
Native Americans especially is, uh, a more of a
59:58
storytelling structure, you know, that it's a non.
1:00:01
Linear. You know, we're so steeped in Western
1:00:05
culture in a. Linear. Okay, we do this, we get
1:00:08
this. And I think the relationships and the
1:00:11
storytelling kind culture has. And Larry did a
1:00:15
great redesign of some of our m. Material based
1:00:18
more on a, ah, storytelling culture. And that's
1:00:22
been really a beautiful thing for us and helping
1:00:24
us, uh, reshape some of what we're doing with
1:00:27
Anglo churches. Yeah.
1:00:30
>> Larry Doornbos: And I would add to that both, um, in the Native
1:00:33
American and Latino cultures, um, one of the
1:00:37
surprising things to us is that we go and we speak
1:00:40
and talk to them and say, would you like to join?
1:00:42
And for the most part their answer is yes.
1:00:45
>> Loren: Right.
1:00:46
>> Larry Doornbos: Um, and we say, well, don't you have to run it
1:00:48
through, you know, these, you know, 27 committees
1:00:50
to get you to this place? And they're going, no,
1:00:51
no, we want to be part. And so one of the things
1:00:54
I'd like to say that at, um, least in the
1:00:56
recruitment phrase is that what Anglo churches can
1:00:59
learn is to be a whole lot more willing to jump in
1:01:02
and participate in a renewal process. Uh, like
1:01:05
these other churches are and their willingness.
1:01:09
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, this is, this has been a great
1:01:13
conversation. I appreciate your time. And uh,
1:01:16
yeah, we always leave folks with the word of
1:01:17
peace. So may God's peace be with you. Thanks for
1:01:24
joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
1:01:26
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1:01:29
Media. We love love to hear from our listeners
1:01:31
with questions, comments and ideas for future
1:01:34
episodes. Visit our website@ahfuture-christian.com
1:01:38
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
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1:01:51
>> Larry Doornbos: Thanks.
1:01:52
>> Loren: And go in PE.