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The Truth About Fearful Avoidants: Why They Send Mixed Signals in Relationships | E2 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: People aren't random, They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
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  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
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  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
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  Speaker 1: you can finally change it. I'm doctor Sarah Hensley.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm Rana Butcher.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: You think your life is random.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: It's not. Welcome to the Doctor Sarah Hensley Show.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: What if the person that gives you the most mixed
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  Speaker 1: signals is actually deploying a very predictable survival strategy in relationships.
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  Speaker 1: In this episode, I really want to break down fearful
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  Speaker 1: avoidant attachment because it is the most common attachment style
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  Speaker 1: I see in my practice and also the one that
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  Speaker 1: people understand the least. Most people come in thinking they're
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  Speaker 1: anxious preoccupied. They're like, I have anxious attachment, and I'm like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you've been listening to some dude on the internet. And
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  Speaker 1: so no formal training and is still dichotomizing anxious and
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  Speaker 1: avoidant and leaving out an entire group of people that
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  Speaker 1: have their own unique wounds, their own unique needs, and
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  Speaker 1: who can be either anxious or avoidant. And it's really unfair. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: for fearful avoidance to just be lumped in to the
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  Speaker 1: other two attachment styles without any unique designation because they
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  Speaker 1: are so unique.
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  Speaker 3: Well, and that's what I was going to say. You know,
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  Speaker 3: it's interesting that that's the case because they're the most complex,
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  Speaker 3: definitely and the hardest to I think understand for sure.
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  Speaker 2: So because there is so.
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  Speaker 3: Much confusion around the ap anxious, preoccupied, and the fearful avoidant,
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  Speaker 3: break down the differences.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, Well, in order to be categorized as a fearful avoidant,
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  Speaker 1: you have to show both activating and deactivating behaviors. So
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  Speaker 1: people think attachment style is all about what you feel. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: I feel anxious. Dismissive avoidance can feel anxious. It's the
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  Speaker 1: strategy they use to get rid of that anxiety that
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  Speaker 1: determines what the attachment style is. So attachment is based
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  Speaker 1: in your behavior, not in how you feel. And social
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  Speaker 1: psychology is the science of behavior. So if a dismissive avoidant,
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  Speaker 1: for example, has anxiety, they're going to pull away and
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  Speaker 1: isolate and shut down in order to try to cope
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  Speaker 1: with that. They're going to go internal. They're going to
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  Speaker 1: go into themselves and try to cope, So that's actually
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  Speaker 1: deactivation from anxiety. Whereas the anxious preoccupied person activates as
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  Speaker 1: a result of their anxiety, the fearful avoidant can do
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  Speaker 1: either one. And so in order to be classified as FA,
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  Speaker 1: you have to have behavior that shows pursuit or activation
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  Speaker 1: or seeking closeness, and behavior that actively distances or deactivates
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  Speaker 1: pushes someone away, and a lot of very anxious fearful avoidance,
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  Speaker 1: because we have fearfuls that lean quite a bit anxious
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  Speaker 1: and those that lean quite a bit avoidant, and they
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  Speaker 1: just get dubbed avoidant or anxious, But it doesn't mean
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  Speaker 1: they can't switch sides, right, And so we can have
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  Speaker 1: very anxious fas that just don't recognize their avoidance. And
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  Speaker 1: I would say that is extremely common in my practice.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I have a question about younger people, right, So,
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  Speaker 3: say it's a younger person who's in their very first
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  Speaker 3: romantic relationship and they really haven't had a chance to deactivate,
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  Speaker 3: they've only lived in that anxious space. What's a good
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  Speaker 3: way to tell whether you're FA or AP.
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  Speaker 1: I would say, if you find yourself getting hurt over
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  Speaker 1: a lot of things and you really want to talk
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  Speaker 1: about it, but you don't. You hold it in and
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  Speaker 1: then you feel this urge to kind of push away,
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  Speaker 1: but maybe you know it's so new you're just kind
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  Speaker 1: of questioning that. APS don't really get the urge to
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  Speaker 1: push away. They get the urge to can continue to
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  Speaker 1: come close, explain themselves, want to settle it. If you're
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  Speaker 1: just like man, I really kind of want to run
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  Speaker 1: right now, but eventually you will, yeah, And I know
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  Speaker 1: eventually you'll run.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: In conflict, I think is always a telltalees on, you know,
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  Speaker 3: because I would think that.
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  Speaker 2: In any case, whether regardless of your age.
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  Speaker 3: Whether you're young or older, you know, in multiple romantic
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  Speaker 3: relationships or not, that it really does like, yeah, you know,
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  Speaker 3: conflict is the AP just wants to avoid it.
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  Speaker 2: In fun and the FA does the fighters.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk about byery wounds and needs,
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  Speaker 1: you know. So the primary wound for fearful avoidance is betrayal.
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  Speaker 1: And this really comes from this idea of the fright
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  Speaker 1: without solution paradox in childhood where there is a caregiver
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  Speaker 1: or both. Caregivers are a source of pain as well
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  Speaker 1: as a source of love and survival for their child.
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  Speaker 1: So most of the time the fearful avoidance that I
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  Speaker 1: see have some kind of big T trauma, not all
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  Speaker 1: of them, some of them have more persistently little TA
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  Speaker 1: traumas in childhood, but the majority of them have something
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  Speaker 1: like a nasty divorce and then they just never saw
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  Speaker 1: one of their parents again, maybe like very very infrequently, right,
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  Speaker 1: Maybe dad moved out and they only saw them every
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  Speaker 1: once in a while in the summers and holidays. Or
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  Speaker 1: a parent that was just really harsh in their parenting,
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  Speaker 1: borderline abusive, yelled, spanked, You never knew what their mood
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  Speaker 1: was going to be. Mood was very liable or unpredictable
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  Speaker 1: for the parent. Parent with a substance abuse issue abuse
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  Speaker 1: in the home. I've never seen someone experience sexual abuse
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  Speaker 1: and disclose that to me who did not ultimately get
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  Speaker 1: categorized by me as fearful avoidance. Sexual abuse is one
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  Speaker 1: of the most traumatizing things anybody can experience, and even
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  Speaker 1: if it happened outside of the home, the subconscious blames
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  Speaker 1: it on the parents because it's like, well, you should
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  Speaker 1: have been able to protect me from these bad things
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  Speaker 1: in the world, and you didn't, even though consciously they
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  Speaker 1: may know my parents couldn't have done anything. They couldn't
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  Speaker 1: have seen it coming. It still gets imprinted as a
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  Speaker 1: betrayal by the parents in the subconscious mind. So this
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  Speaker 1: idea of betrayal is just a really unique psychological injury.
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  Speaker 1: It's very unique, how so, because especially in childhood, your
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  Speaker 1: caregivers are your source of survival and they are supposed
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  Speaker 1: to love you in a safe way, and children inherently
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  Speaker 1: know this. They look at families, they understand what a
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  Speaker 1: family is supposed to be. There's a mommy, there's a daddy,
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  Speaker 1: and they're supposed to love me as the child, and
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  Speaker 1: they're supposed to love each other. And when that parent
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  Speaker 1: becomes a source of significant pain in the child's life,
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  Speaker 1: they both have to have an approach strategy which is
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  Speaker 1: rely on the caregiver for care for survival. They still
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  Speaker 1: want love from that parent, but also they have to
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  Speaker 1: withdraw at times to protect themselves from the dysfunction and
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  Speaker 1: the pain that that parent brings. So this unique psychological
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  Speaker 1: injury of I have to love them, but I also
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  Speaker 1: fear them at the same time gets transferred into adult
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  Speaker 1: relationships where I both want love from my partner, but
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  Speaker 1: I also deeply fear being hurt and deeply feel like
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  Speaker 1: closeness ultimately does bring harm.
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  Speaker 3: Gosh, when you explain this, I feel so many sensations
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  Speaker 3: in my body right, like I get goose bumps because
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  Speaker 3: I feel it's just so relatable to my life for sure,
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  Speaker 3: and I know yours too, just because we had, in
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  Speaker 3: your case, your dad, in my case my mom, who
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  Speaker 3: were wonderful people, God rest their souls, but they were
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  Speaker 3: these like my mom, for example, was extremely loyal. She
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  Speaker 3: never missed any event that we had. She always showed up,
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  Speaker 3: but she also was just teetering constantly on this line
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  Speaker 3: of when she was going to lose her temper or
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  Speaker 3: when she was.
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  Speaker 2: Going to be okay yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And that was my dad checked out.
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  Speaker 1: Which I think also was painful to have a parent
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  Speaker 1: that because the FA's deepest need is to be known, known,
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  Speaker 1: deeply known, heard, understood, seeing, validated. And so when I
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  Speaker 1: felt like my dad didn't know me, it was so painful,
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  Speaker 1: and I think that that is where all of my
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  Speaker 1: negative feelings from my dad came from. He didn't know me,
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  Speaker 1: and he didn't see the pain that he caused our family.
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  Speaker 1: He caused our family so much pain and distress. So
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  Speaker 1: it was very, very defensive of my mom.
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  Speaker 2: Because and lived in victimhoods.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, my mom victimhood love or to death. But in
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  Speaker 1: a lot of cases she was a victim of my
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  Speaker 1: bad She just didn't know how to set boundaries to
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  Speaker 1: get over it. And that's the paradox a lot of
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  Speaker 1: fearful avoidance end up in. See, either subconscious seeks the familiar.
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  Speaker 1: Always doesn't matter if that familiar is good for you
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  Speaker 1: or not. The subconscious is going to seek it. So
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  Speaker 1: if the familiar to you is that love is pain,
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  Speaker 1: you are going to seek that out. And that is
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  Speaker 1: not going to change just because you know that it's there. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it only changes when you change those patterns deep in
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  Speaker 1: your nervous system. That is why I try to pound
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  Speaker 1: it into the ground. But you have to do the
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  Speaker 1: deep work at the level of the nervous system to
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  Speaker 1: change these imprints in order to be able to attract
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  Speaker 1: someone secure. Fearful avoidance are notorious for attracting very dysfunctional people,
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  Speaker 1: really bad boys. Yeah, if anybody's going to attract a narcissist,
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  Speaker 1: it's going to be the fa and I create the
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  Speaker 1: most pain.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I find it interesting that people get this
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  Speaker 3: wrong too, that most of the time people think the
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  Speaker 3: DA is the narcissist, but most of the time efays.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the base attachment for narcissism really is FA because
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  Speaker 1: it comes from it comes from significant dysfunction in childhood. Now,
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  Speaker 1: I will say this, das with trauma overlay can develop narcissism.
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  Speaker 1: So FA isn't the only attachment style that can turn
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  Speaker 1: into narcissism. DAS can too, It's just that it's less likely.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about I don't know, I don't want
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  Speaker 3: to say your theory, but you've talked about it in
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  Speaker 3: the past on other episodes. But I find it very
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  Speaker 3: interesting and very spot on about your theory, your in
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  Speaker 3: quotations because you can validate that, but about the narcissist
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  Speaker 3: and how narcissism is formed.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think there's a number of conditions where
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  Speaker 1: narcissism can be formed and it can look a little
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  Speaker 1: bit different, and that can end up determining whether it's
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  Speaker 1: more covert narcissism that somebody has or more overt narcissism
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  Speaker 1: that someone has. Specifically around overt narcissism, I think they
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  Speaker 1: most of the time, not all the time, but most
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  Speaker 1: of the time had a parent that was dysfunctional or
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  Speaker 1: very neglectful and disconnected with a parent that overvalued them
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  Speaker 1: or overpraised them. So there was sort of this, I
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  Speaker 1: have this one parent that is rejecting me, but I
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  Speaker 1: have this other parent then that I run to who
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  Speaker 1: soothes me. And in the case of particularly male narcissists
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  Speaker 1: that are of the overt type, that are chronic cheaters,
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  Speaker 1: because that is a very typical overt narcissism profile for men,
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  Speaker 1: they tend to be serial cheaters, serial liars, master manipulators.
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  Speaker 1: They usually had a female caregiver in their life that
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  Speaker 1: could be Grandma, could be mom most of the time,
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  Speaker 1: mom that really overvalued them, and a father that rejected them.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, over critical father.
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  Speaker 1: Over critical father. So my father criticizes me or he
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  Speaker 1: neglects me, and that wounds me. So but then I
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  Speaker 1: can run to mommy and she praises me and she
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  Speaker 1: soothes me. So that makes them absolutely dependent upon the
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  Speaker 1: validation of women to feel okay in the future.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes so much sense. When you've talked about
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  Speaker 3: this in the past, I was like it clicked. I
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  Speaker 3: was like, that's it. Yeah, And just in reference to
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  Speaker 3: my own experiences, you know, with specific people.
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  Speaker 2: It is.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is set onto my experience as well. But
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  Speaker 1: again there's a lot of different sort of narcissistic presentations,
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  Speaker 1: and newer diagnostic criteria focus a lot more on vulnerable
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  Speaker 1: narcissism or covert narcissism, which I think is something my
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  Speaker 1: father struggled with. I don't know if he would have
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  Speaker 1: made the criteria for full NPD. I debate that within
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  Speaker 1: myself all the time. You know, was he fully NPD?
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  Speaker 1: May be, but he's definitely had strong, vulnerable narcissistic traits
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  Speaker 1: in his mother. In my opinion, my just personal lay opinion,
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  Speaker 1: not clinical diagnosis, I don't do that. It was a
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  Speaker 1: full on vulnerable narcissist, and so he was raised by
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  Speaker 1: a narcissist. Therefore he had some narcissistic tendencies, and that
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  Speaker 1: can be how narcissism has passed down as well. You
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  Speaker 1: have a parent that's narcissistic, And of course we always
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  Speaker 1: either observe and then seek out the behaviors of our parents,
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  Speaker 1: or we absorb them and we actually act them out ourselves.
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  Speaker 1: So we either seek it or we become it, and
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  Speaker 1: that has that is true for attachment as well as narcissism.
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  Speaker 1: That is why it's so important to do the work,
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  Speaker 1: because you can't just know I should do better and
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  Speaker 1: then do better. But yeah, fear full avoidance are particularly
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  Speaker 1: prone to attracting narcissists and are most likely the ones
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  Speaker 1: to become them eventually.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to go back to the FA.
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  Speaker 3: A difference, Okay, I know the wound around betrayal is
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  Speaker 3: more prevalent in the FA, Yes, And I really want
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  Speaker 3: you to break down the biggest differences between that betrayal
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  Speaker 3: wound versus the abandonment way. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: For the FA, betrayal is you don't know me, you
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  Speaker 1: did something that hurt me, and you did it because
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  Speaker 1: you didn't know that would hurt me, or you did
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  Speaker 1: know even worse, you did know that would hurt me
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  Speaker 1: and you did it anyway, So betrayal is really any
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  Speaker 1: disappoint to the FA, any disappointment.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, any.
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  Speaker 1: Misattunement, right, So they're hypervigilant to like being hurt at
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  Speaker 1: all in any way. The AP is like, I'll take
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: whatever you give me, just don't leave me. So they
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  Speaker 1: are much more hypervigilant to just cues of abandonment versus
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  Speaker 1: cues of all harm yeah, so, and they have this
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  Speaker 1: un ending I always equate it to like the energizer,
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  Speaker 1: but effect of I can get you to love me,
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  Speaker 1: just give me another chance, if you let me, If
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: you let me have a chance, I'll try harder, I'll
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: do better, and we can make this work. Where's the
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: FA's like, I don't even know if I want to
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  Speaker 1: make it work? Yeah, Like, yes, I want you, but
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  Speaker 1: then I also debate because you've hurt me, I don't
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  Speaker 1: know how I could love you back. So there's this
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  Speaker 1: constant push pull with the FA, even if it's just internal,
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  Speaker 1: Like if we have a very anxious FA, they might
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  Speaker 1: constantly be pursuing, but it doesn't mean internally they're not
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  Speaker 1: suffering over But I don't know because you've hurt me
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: so much. Where's the APIs always like, no, I definitely
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: want to be together.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Right no matter what.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, an AP only ends a relationship under a few
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: finite circumstances. One they have somebody else lined up that
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: they are very sure they can walk into a relationship with,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: so they don't have to have any gaps in having
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: a relationship. Because the AP gets a lot of validation
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: from being in a relationship. A lot of their self
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  Speaker 1: worth from being in a relationship. So if they have
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: somebody else lined up, like maybe it hasn't been technical cheating,
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  Speaker 1: it's been close enough, right, and they know, Okay, I
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  Speaker 1: can walk straight into this other relationship.
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  Speaker 2: That's not feel abandoned because of the other.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Ways they get broken up with and they don't really
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: want it to end. The third option is it is
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  Speaker 1: so bad, It is so abusive, it is so horrendous
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that they just even they have reached a limit. And
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: I would say that's the most rare situation.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but it exists.
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  Speaker 2: It makes me.
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  Speaker 1: Sad anfa is much more likely to run. Yeah, don't
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  Speaker 1: regret it. And when I get back together. That's what
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I used to do. I used to break up with
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: people and then immediately.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Report no, no, I'm just kidding, I'll.
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  Speaker 1: Put you bad.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So I would be like solid in it for like
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a week. But I was really as an anxious efa,
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: desperately hoping that they would come back, apologize, make it.
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  Speaker 2: Right, wanting to chase you, chase me, yeah, chase me.
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  Speaker 1: And if that didn't happen, then I was psychologically just
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: I would just break down, right and I would be
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: miserable and anxious and obsessive. And I don't know how
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: many times I did that. I broke up with somebody
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: because they hurt me in the moment and I was like, fine,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: this is over yep, only to be like, oh crap,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: what did I do?
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Yep? Done the same thing and.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Then be like I shouldn't have done that, you know,
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  Speaker 1: But then there would be a part of me again
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  Speaker 1: that would be like no, but I had a rite
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  Speaker 1: to because they did this thing that hurt me.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So it's definitely more of a push pull with the FA,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: whereas the AP it's just the push.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: And since we've talked a little bit about the AP
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: and FA differences, let's talk a little bit about the
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: FADA difference.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, this is I think even more confusing for people.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, every this is crazy. So my Tuesday
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: and Wednesday, or my coaching days where I see individual clients,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: I only see individual clients on those days. Every single
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: client I had on those days came to me and
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: said I have a DA partner And I was like,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: are you sure, and they were like, I think, so,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: let's talk about it. And then they totally described an
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: FA and I was like, I really don't think you're
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: dealing with the DA here, and they're like, oh, well,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: it's because you know they pull away. Well, fas can
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: absolutely pull away, and they act in opposition to their
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: partner's attachment style. So those clients were the more anxious
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: one in the relationship, which is automatically going to put
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: the FA in the more dismissive or avoidant position in
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the relationship. Right, So they're going to act very DA.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: But there's some characteristics. Das aren't huge fighters. Yes. Can
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: they get defensive, frustrated, irritated, Yeah, but they're not going
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: to you generally, be screaming at you and low blowing
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: you unless they have major trauma overlay, which is a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: small percentage of das. FA absolutely will do that.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they're fiery.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: They're not going to come running and chasing you when
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: you pull away. That is that is like the key
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: if you pull away in the relationship, do they automatically
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: activate into their anxiety and come seek you out characteristic
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: textbook FA das don't do that. They're going to wait
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: it out and then they're going to mosey around and
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: maybe kind of like start normal conversation but still be
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: pretty distant. Yeah, this is why it's the slow the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: DA's a slow fade.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is why it's so important too. I
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: think to not take some online quiz.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Right because God gets such a bs.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: People get it wrong more often than not.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Do you know every person comes to me and goes
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: I took an online quiz and it said I was secure,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: but I just really don't think I am. Or my
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: partner took this online quiz and it said they said
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: that they were secure, so they don't want to do
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: your program. Heavy sign major heavy size. I'm like, you
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: mean those psychometrically invalid quizzes that are for educational purposes
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: only and actually measure nothing, And might as well ask
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you your favorite ice cream flavor and say that measures attachment.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: There's just sometimes no replacement for human Yeah, for having
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: the human or the coach or the therapist.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I do an interview because I can poke where I
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: need to pop, I can find the nuances, I can
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: find the.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Complexities, and you can tune in real time.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Right and I'm submitting a paper right now to Psychological
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Review that we need an updated assessment, an updated qualitative assessment.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: The AAI just doesn't capture everything. So that's why I
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: use like a lot of the primary components of the
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: adult attachment interview, but I also ask some of my
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: own questions. And I really want that to get into
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: public domain science because I think I have great theoretical
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: justification for it. So I'm submitting that paper right now.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And we'll see, we'll see if where it's it's journal
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: home is going to be. But I think we need
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: a new qualitative and we also need a new updated
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: quantitative measure as well, and so I'm creating one of
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: those goods as well, so that way we can have,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: you know, validity. There's certain types of validity where we
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: look at two measures and see how they correlate, you know.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: And I think we need a new qualitative measure and
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: a new quantitative measure. But those online quizzes aren't it now.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: A process of creating an assessment for attachment is years.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it requs tons of research.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, you have to give it populations over time. Then
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: you have to do validity analyzes, reliability analyses, do factor
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: analysis to see what underlying factors are there. Then we
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: whittle down the questions and we give it to another
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: population again, and we do this process over and over
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: until we have a final set of questions that we
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: think tap into that construct the best. Right, You don't
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: just make up questions that sound like they measure something
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and then we expect it to measure that psychological construct.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: That is not science, and unfortunately people use it as
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: clickbait to get people in the door, and it's not
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: it's not science. Yeah, this podcast is partially brought to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: you by the Verified app. Verified is the first relationship
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: registry that aims to make cheating impossible. You should get
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: on the app, register your partner and know that you
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: are protected from cheating.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: So I want to go back to the fearful avoidant,
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: and let's talk about the fearful avoidance.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: Nervous system very chaotic, extremely chaotic. They're very deep feelers.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: The more anxious ones are like an M five Mac
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: or an M six math. I don't if an M
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: six exists, but like an M five Mac processor, which
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: is a very new Mac computer. They know exactly why
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: they're feeling what they are. They can describe it accurately.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Doesn't mean they will act appropriately, but it does mean
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: they understand what they're feeling and why they're feeling it,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and they can put words to it, like very very quickly. Yeah,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: the more avoidant FA they still feel very deeply, but
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: they can't necessarily articulate it as well and as eloquently
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: as the more anxious fearful can, and they might not
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: be as comfortable with the vulnerability as the more anxious
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: FA is. And again, people can from anxious to avoidant,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: but generally if they lean one direction, they have sort
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: of that more inherent dichotomy of I can process really quick,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: I can say it really quick, and I expect everybody
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: else to do that. That's what the anxious FAY is
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: sort of expecting out of others.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Step me, same, this same, But I know other fays
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: that lean the other way. I thinking of others, And
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys, as you listen, are
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: you thinking about the people you know in your life?
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: So you're like yep, yep.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: So the more avoidant ones can be equally as difficult.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: High emotionsfas are fighters. They may hold it in, hold
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: it in, hold it in, but eventually it's going to explore.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: They're going to crash out.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: They're going to crash out and have a grievance list,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: or they can kind of come out of the gate hot.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Those are the more anxious effays. They tend to come
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: out of the gate hot.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: It takes me a while.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but as I get older, you know, I tend
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: to I've gotten better about, you know, keeping it, keeping
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: that fight, that fire under wraps a little bit. Just
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: don't wake me up, right, babe, don't wake me up,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: because then you know, if you wake me up, I'm
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: gonna fight.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna fight you.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: It's gonna get you. A few are eleven, but I
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: guess that's probably from being in the army. Yeah, when
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: he had to sleep, when he could sleep, and he
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: didn't want to be woken. No, but fas are fiery,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: they're spicy. They can be coercive, they can be controlling,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: they can be manipulative, not all of them. Yeah, there's
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: a degree, right, It's always on a spectrum. The more
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: milder fays may not be coercive and manipulative, the more
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: you know, that's the what I'm looking for here. The
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: more significant the FA attachment, the more severe the FA attachment,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: the more fiery and spicy.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about that, talk about that because you know,
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: in terms of maybe some new listeners that we have
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: talk about the spectrum of attachment.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we do have categories and unfortunate. So in statistics,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: we have types of variables, like categorical variables. Like if
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I ask you what's your favorite ice cream flavor and
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: you say chocolate, Well we could have vanilla, we could
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: have strawberry, we could have Rocky Road, right with a.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Baseball nut from Baskin Robins.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: If y'all are wondering, Okay, yeah, that's categorical variable. Right,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: there's no like number spectrum, we can put that on, right, Okay.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Then we have what we call continuous variables. Continuous variables
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: mean there's this sort of unlimited amount of measurement numerically, right,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and then we can chop it up as finite as
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: it could possibly go up to infinity. So like if
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I say, for example, age, like age is a continuous
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: variable where it's like you could be zero years old,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: you could not exist. Therefore, you could be like if
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: you could have been negative four years old, right, because
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: it's four years before you were born, that that's you
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: being negative four.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Right, Interesting, Yeah.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: And then you could be zero years old and then
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: you could be one to potentially the potent. It's not
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: about how long you will live, it's the potential right
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: to go to infinity. Right, we know you won't live
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to infinity, but like it just keeps going. And then
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: we can break your age down to like milliseconds, right
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: you are forty four years, two months, three weeks, five days,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: sixteen hours. I don't know all the way to like sgonds, yeah, exactly.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: So that's a continuous variable. And then we have like
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: this discrete sort of variable where it's like it's I
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: only give you a finite amount of responses, but it's
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: still on a spectrum. Okay, this is kind of what
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: attachment is. Yes, there are these categories, but within these categories,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: we have so of mild to severe right, which it's
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: like you can be kind of close to secure. It's
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: what I call pseudo secure, where you can understand what
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: secure attachment looks like, you can even employ some secure behaviors.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: But if you're triggered enough, you're going to slide up
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the spectrum and your attachment dysfunction is going to start
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: to show. And so and then we have people who
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: kind of inherently are very severe so they just always
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: sort of exist more on that severe side. So it's
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit more fluid than people make it
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: out to be. Yeah, Yeah, And what's happening at any
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: given moment in the relationship can change that fluidity. It
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: can change how you sort of slide among that spectrum.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: So it's sort of especially oh gosh, fearful Wood. It
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: has the whole spectrum right right. They can be one
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: hundred percent avoidant and then come and be like crazy anxious. Yeah,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: it just depends. Yeah, and so the fearful avoidant, Yeah,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the fearful avoidant can just be all over the place.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Their inner world tends to be very chaotic. They would
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: score higher on what we would call neuroticism, which is
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: a personality trait that really is sort of like unstable mood.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: So they tend to have more unstable mood then the
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: other two attachment styles. And again they have this disorganized
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: pattern of relating, and so it used to be called
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: disorganized attachment when describing infants, and then that term kind
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: of got you know, mapped to adults, where sometimes they
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: can really come close and other times they can push
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: you away. So I think the more anxious fearful avoidance
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: act a little bit more ap like where they want.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: They want closeness, They want deep intimacy. They want to
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: be deeply seen and known. They want people to kind
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: of split them open, see the inside of them for
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: who they are. They want people to study them, to
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: know them, to meet their needs without having to ask
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: their partner to meet their needs. The more avoidant ones
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: are both hurt and will withdraw because of being hurt,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: so they can get hurt very easily, but also are
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: more likely to withdraw from being hurt than the anxious ones.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: The anxious ones will maybe it'll take a couple of
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: times for them being hurt in the same way before
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: they withdraw.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: The more avoidant ones are more likely to withdraw like
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: immediately yes, after being hurt. And then also they're more
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: prone to the overwhelm, which is a characteristic they share
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: with the DA right, So intimacy in and of itself
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: can be overwhelming for the more naturally leaning avoidant.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: Fearful avoidant, Yes, I see it in the person that
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking of. I want to ask you too, what's
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: the what do you see with do you see most
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: neurodivergens with the overlay.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Of FA, yes, but I don't think it's true neurodivergence.
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: I think it's a factor coming from complex post traumatic
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: stress disorder, which inherently overlaps with fearful avoidant attachment. Complex
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: CPTSD creates executive dysfunction. It does. It creates executive dysfunction,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: and I think we label that as ADHD, especially sometimes
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: even mild ASD. And I think the DA sometimes gets
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: labeled as mild ASD because they have problems relating to people. Yeah,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: for sure, but it's coming from a different mechanism. So
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I think attachment and neurodivergence overlaps and we need a
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: lot more research on that.
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I agree with that. That's just a question I
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: see so often. Oh yeah, and your messages, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: a neurodivergence and attachment and the overlays between the two.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: So if you're the partner of a fearful avoidant, like,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: what are the most like what are the most often
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: mistakes you see of people that come into your practice
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: other than thinking that maybe they have an more dismissive
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: avoidant versus the fearful avoidant, Like, what are the mistakes
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: they're making with that fear full avoidant partner that they can,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Work on getting defensive.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Number one thing. Defensiveness will make the FA go crazy
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: because their deepest need is to be understood. They want validation,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: They want to be known. They want their pain to
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: be understood by their partner. They want their position to
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: be understood by their partner. They want their reality to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: be acknowledged and understood, sometimes even to the point of
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: being agreed with. Like the fearful avoidance, they have this
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: toxic trait where it's like their reality is the only reality. Yeah,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: and it can really be hard for them to let
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: go of their reality. And then they can be very
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: defensive because if they feel misunderstood, they want to jump
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: in there and correct the story. No no, no, no, no,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: here's here's how it is. It's tough. They get defensive
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: for a different reason than the dismissive avoidant does. Right,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: But they can still get very defensive. But your own
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: defensiveness is really going to trigger them because they want
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: you to understand them. So being able to validate acknowledge.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: What I teach people all the time in conflict resolution
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: is that you don't have to agree with your partner's reality,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: but you do have to try to understand it, empathize
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: with it, and accept that it exists in the first place.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And what does that usually look like.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: It looks like being like, hey, I understand your position
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that when I said or did X it made you
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: feel why and that that did not feel good to you,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: and that you have interpreted it as I was rejecting
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you or I was blank, And I know that feels
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: really bad to you. I know that that it doesn't
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: work for you. That is not you saying, and I
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: agree I rejected you, and I agree you should feel
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: this way. It still provides so much comfort it does right,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: And then you can say and in my experience, my
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: intentions were XYZ or I apologize for that impact. I
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: didn't mean to impact you that way. And in my experience,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I feel something totally different because the other person's reality
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: is valid, do sure. And most of the time what
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: we're arguing about is subjective reality. There's no answer right
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: or no, he's right and she's wrong or vice versa.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: It's here's how you viewed the situation and what you
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: felt and what you experienced, and here's how your partner
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: viewed the situation, and here's what they felt and what
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: they experienced, and then fearful avoidance will get so caught
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: up and just claiming their reality as the winner. Yeah,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: and we've got to have an opportunity for both people's
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: reality to be absolutely laid out on the table. Both
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: deserve equal attention and acknowledgment and understanding. But then what
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: you actually have to agree on is what are we
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: going to do to move forward in a way that
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: works for both people. So maybe you don't agree that
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: your partner should have been hurt by what you said.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: You don't have to agree with that, but would you
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: be willing to say it differently next time because that
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: would feel better to them?
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you think it would be worth it, right,
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Like it is worth it, It's absolutely worth it. And
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: speaking of that, like you know, for the fas that
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: maybe do have really deep trauma, you know, healing, let's
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: talk about healing a little bit in that space, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: you know, is it possible?
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: It is possible. I wouldn't be sitting here if it
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: wasn't possible. And do I have little FA behaviors that
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: sneak up and then I have to correct them? Yes?
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: That is part of earning your security. Nobody's one hundred
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: percent perfectly secure after their healing journey. It's a matter
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: of can you catch it, can you correct it, can
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: you try to take accountability for it? And can you
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: try to keep working on it moving forward. That's what
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: makes somebody quote unquote healed right, is that they're on
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: a continuous healing journey, and so yes, absolutely, the hypervigilance
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: will get them in the most trouble and that is
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: something that lingers it does. It's just can you can
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: you be like instead of being like, no, I know
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: you're mad at me. You took a deep sigh, can
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: you just do a check in, Hey, just curious if
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: everything's okay right.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Curios city is your friend.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Curiosity is your friend, but you have to be regulated
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: to have curiosity. You have to be regulated in order
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to be open to somebody else's perspective. You have to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: be regulated to be mindful of the words that you're using.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: That's polyvagel theory, and that is why people can know
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: that they need to do those things but not be
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: able to execute them in real time, because their nervous
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: system is still responding in a threat state, and you
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: have to condition that out of somebody. Yeah, you have
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: to condition it out of them, and you have to
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: also simultaneously work on their cognitive and effective schemas, their
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: thoughts and emotions that are driving those things. So that's
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: where my capacity building tools come in. And then that
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: is why we also work on reconditioning behavior in that program.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is great, And I know that you probably
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: see the f You've said this at the beginning. You
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: see fas probably more than you see any of their actions.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: It's a selection bias because they have the most pain.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: The people that are in the most pain are the
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: most most likely to reach out.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: To me right, the most emotionally aware, so they're more
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: likely to seek help right.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: And they're the most likely to go how can I
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: fix myself? The anxious ef phays, the avoidant fays are
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: a little bit more resistant. I actually think fearful is
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: that lean, dismissive or the hardest attachment style.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I could see why, because see why, but.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: Only if because again, fearful avoidance have such high trait variability,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: meaning one does not look like the other. So one
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: fearful avoidant who leans dismissive might not look like the other.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: One might be mild, the other might be more severe.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: One might have more manipulative trades, the other might not.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: And so there's kind of this special category of fearfuls
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: that lean avoidant, that are the hardest. If they have
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: high manipulation, high defensiveness, high likelihood to withdraw, they share
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: more of a defectiveness wound. Then we have somebody who's
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: both high conflict and high resistant to change. But they're
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: only a small category because again, fearul of woidnce widely diverse.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: But if I get one of those, I'm like.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, I've seen them.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: High conflict, high resistant to change. DA is just high
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: resistant to change?
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: They're not. They hate conflict. They don't want to fight,
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: so they don't always have that spicy, throw it back
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: in your face manipulation below the belt punches that can
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: feel very devastating.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: I know there's been at least twice the side story
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: that you've had to fire clients and it's guys, this
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: is okay, like sometimes yeah, but.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Twice it's happened twice.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: And they were that coat person that you're describing. It
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: high conflict, high conflict, resistant change.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does say, in my terms and conditions,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: if you start screaming, cussing at your partner or at me,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: I end the session. Yeah, your behavior has to remain respectful. Absolutely,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: get upset, right, but you can't scream and cuss and
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: throw things, all right. I had one person punch the camera.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: That's great, punch his computer, like, punched me through the computer.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Oh my god.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: That so I to fire that client.
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's worth it to fire clients sometimes for your
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: own well being.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in my terms and conditions. You can't have to,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: you have to. Yeah, I can't put myself in a
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: position to be abused.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I won't.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: I refuse those of my boundaries, right, I would be
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: a hypocrite if I didn't do that. And then I
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: had another client that was just verbally he wouldn't let
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: his partner get a word in. He was cursing, he
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: was demanding that I give and that I make his
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: opinion my opinion, and I disagreed with him, and he
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: was like, if you don't tell her this, blah blah blah,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: like he was trying to manipulate and force me into
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: telling his partner something that I didn't agree with, and
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: I just had to say I don't think I'm a
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: good fit for you.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was my choice absolutely.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, were they both have faced for sure?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: It's fair. Yeah.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's funny because Sarah, our lives are so different,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: even though we're so enthralled in this business.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm like.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: You know, maybe I would like to go back to coaching,
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: And then I hear stories like that and I'm like, no,
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: I'm good.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I'm good right.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: Here, I am.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: I'm good.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: Like should we switch places for a day?
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: No, I'm good, I'm totally good, because that would be
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: really I would feel so disregulated after if I had
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: a coaching session like that, I would really struggle afterwards.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: See I have I always say I don't have great
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: associative ability, but maybe I do when it comes to
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: those types of situations because or maybe I've just I've
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: learned to process it and just realize that that's not
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: my fault. That I show up as the best version
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: of myself and my goal is to always help the
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: client to my maximum capacity. But sometimes people don't have
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: the capacity to even be regulated enough to engage with me,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: and that's not my problem, right, They're my fault, So
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: I can go true. Let it go so true, because
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: if I know that I showed up with respect, with professionalism,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: with a good heart, I'm off the hook.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Amen's sister, Amen. So for all of our fearful
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: avoidance out there, we love you guys so much.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: We do. And just because you might move the goalpost.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah's and you remember, like an elephant, you never forget.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: You never forget. Maybe you keep score in your relationship.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe you bring up the past. Maybe you beat the
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: dead horse in conflict. Maybe you will protest and pull
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: away and give people the silent treatment and simultaneously want
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: them to poke at you and find out what's wrong.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: We see you, Yeah, we hear you.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Gosh, I feel you. I feel and see you in
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: the depths of my soul.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Maybe you run when something starts to get really close
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: and you feel overwhelmed by the very thing you think
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: you want. There's all sorts of fa presentations out there. Yeah,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: and we're here to help.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And so if you're looking for help.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: First off, we got to give a shout out to
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Rachel at the on Jeweler.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about beautiful.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: She's a listener and she sent us the most beautiful
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: bracelets guys. So they're curated with little specific statements on them.
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: I have mine on right now. One says you are
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: loved and the other one says let go let God.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: That one's always such a good reminder for me. But yeah,
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: she sent us these beautiful bracelets. She sent me to
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: and doctor Hensley too, And we're just so appreciative Rachel,
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: that you sent us your art and your creativity beautiful.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: And we're just so grateful for listeners who are willing
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: to send us little gifts. So check out the Honest Yes,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: the Honest Jeweler at the Honest Jeweler dot com. All right, guys,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: thank you guys so much as always for tuning in.
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: We love each and every one of you. We are
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: so excited again for season three in our new studio.
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: There's so much more to come. You know, we are
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: getting everything just top notch for you guys.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: We're gonna have top notch guests. We're gonna figure out
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: how to do call. Yeah, we're working on that technology
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: right now, yes, which is going to make things really fun.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: My husband's in the studio or the network room right now, going,
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: oh gosh, okay, I got to figure that out.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to figure that out. I'm going to
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: figure it out. Josh has time and you don't have
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: to be tomorrow.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, And we figured out so much to this point. Like,
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: I'm just so incredible of us. I'm just so proud
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: of us too. I'm so incredibly proud of us. I
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: told you when it all began, I was like, if
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: there's four people that i'll that I'll bet on it's
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: the four of us, That's right, sis. Yeah, So I'm
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: super proud of us, and I'm super proud of each
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: and every one of you for tuning in every week,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: for listening, for trying to heal yourselves. So please continue
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: to tune in until next time, Peace, love, and perspective