Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 804: Delivering Trauma Treatment in the Wake of School Shootings with Deb Del Vecchio-Scully

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Episode 804: Delivering Trauma Treatment in the Wake of School Shootings with Deb Del Vecchio-Scully · The Trauma Therapist

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Trauma Therapist Podcast. Plus listeners can listen to episodes early and ad free right
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now. Become a Plus listener by going to Apple Podcasts searching for the Trauma
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Therapist Podcast and signing up today. All right, welcome back to the Trauma
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Thepist podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My mission is to help trauma therapist
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be their incredible selves, to be human, to be real, not just
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a clinician. I'm a big believer in who we are is more important than
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what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability,
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Let's get started, all right, Dev, here we go, Vibe
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or three, two and one, Welcome back to the podcast. Very excited
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to happens my guest today and she's back, Deb del Va Kio Scully,
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Deb, welcome back. Thank you for having me again. You're welcome.
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So Deb has focused her career on helping clients heal from trauma and educating therapists
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about all aspects of trauma, particularly the impact of communal trauma such as school
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shootings because too many do not recognize or identify their symptoms as being trauma.
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Debs devoted to professional work on engaging professionals and clients to better understand the impact
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of trauma. She uses analystic approach focusing on the brain and bodies reaction to
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trauma, while using EMDR therapy, neurofeedback, attachment focused trauma, yoga therapy
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therapy, and therapeutical roma therapy, and a relational approach to healing. And
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you're also focusing on, as we talked about before we started recording, is
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pre verbal trauma, and we're going to get into that. But welcome back.
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Before we go in here, share with our listeners where you're from originally
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and where you are are currently. Yeah. So I'm in Connecticut. My
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whole career, I've been in Connecticut. I now am the co owner of
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a group practice in Branford, Connecticut, the Center for neuro Potential. But
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you know, as you know, when we first spoke, I was trying
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to think about how long ago it was. It was several years. I
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was the clinical recovery leader in Newtown after the Sandy Hook school shooting there and
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worked in the school with just such a traumatized community and subset within the school
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of who had been there that day, and that's really informed a lot about
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my work. I've gone on to support other communities Parkland community, Stone in
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Douglas shooting, Oxford, Michigan, Michigan State. Wow. Yeah, I
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was in Orlando after that, I want to know, Pole shooting. So
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it's really it is a big part of my world. And I'm definitely a
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gun violence prevention advocate for sure, but I think it's also become such an
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epidemic in our society that it's it's a it's a public health crisis that's just
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simply not being acknowledged as one. Yeah. I mean, well that that's
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certainly a big part of the landscape and gun violence in school shootings. You
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said, however, that a lot of that work has has informed you and
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your work professionally. How so, what have you gleaned and learned and for
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the what's it like working in that situation in that environment. Uh, it's
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intense, it's intense demanding, h all. You just I just don't know
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what each day is going to bring what's needed. And I think the A
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cass An incredibly long shadow in everyone's life, whether you've been professionally connected or
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you are a survivor that shadow. Despite really good trauma therapy, it's just
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something. It changes a person. And you know, and going back to
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communities and Sandy Hook University was just ten years in December, and then I
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was in Parkland in February for their fifth anniversary. And so to watch a
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community over time and how it's changed, It's altered the very structure of how
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the community functions, how the individuals in the community function, and it's just
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the separation. I think that is one of the things about a communal trauma,
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is that it creates such separation between groups and where one group believes that
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this is the way we should be doing another believes this is the way we
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should be doing it, and we should what here all of the above,
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you know, remembering right, there's a lot of fracturing around do we remember
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every year? You know? Do we have public ceremonies every year? And
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that's just one of the areas where there's fracturing. And so I think it's
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I come back to again again. It's this concept of resilience and how as
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individuals, our work as therapists is to help our clients be more and more
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resilient to cope not only with the circumstances of whatever the trauma has been for
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them, but to find a way out of it in a way that helps
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them to really be stronger. And well, so when you look at an
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entire community impacted that, there's so many complicated layers to that, and you
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know how there is no moving on, but there can be a moving forward,
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right, we can take a step forward towards healing while always remembering those
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who died. You know, how do we move forward? I mean it's
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the essential tenant and grief work, right, how do we integrate this loss
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into our lives? And it's highly complex. Let me ask you something.
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I want to kind of dial in and get a little more specific here,
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because I believe there's a lot of learning in that. When are you usually
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brought into a situation, Well, that varies, you know, I think
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so with Stoneman Douglas shooting, I was contacted a few days later by a
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therapist who had come to a conference that I was a keynoteer at, and
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so she knew of my work in Sandy Hook and asked for an introduction,
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and so I very early on was influenced in helping to support. That is
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the ideal similar what do you do in that situation? So you go in
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and do what specifically? So you know, initially it was a lot of
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support, it was a lot of education. I think, yeah, yeah,
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this is what you need to think about. These are the things that
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are going to start to happen. This is how you kind of start to
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create some kind of structure to an organization to who who wants to respond in
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your community and what are the things to look for, what's needed. How
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do you that therapist to determine whether or not they have the skills to do
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this or not. Because there's a great outpouring, great outpouring of care and
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support after a shooting, as should be, but that desire to help right
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often overshadows the capacity to help. And so that's one of I think the
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big messages And one of my mentors described it as SUVs. Spontaneous uninvited volunteers
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visitors right, and how community gets overrun, you know, with the sandy
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hook that had to open up a warehouse to store teddy bears, lies all
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the things that just flooded that community. And it is that is an additional,
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additional layer of trammonization is just the community being overrun by people who want
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to help. Right. That's really good here, no doubt. But the
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bottom line we as a community of therapists, you have to have the skills
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to be able to help, you know, And that is one of the
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biggest learnings that I would say to any community that has to deal with that.
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So you said you were called in a couple of days, right,
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So that's much different than being called in three months down the line. We're
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talking about a cute and acute situation here at that point. And you know,
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just to clarify, I was, I was providing consultation and support my
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first trip. I think I went four or five times to Parkland. Wasn't
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until August. That shoulding happened in February, And but that early work is
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this is what you need to do, this is what I want to do.
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That's kind of what I'm trying to get at. What in that kind
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of situation, what does one need to do? And well, so that
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depends on who you mean by that, right, as an individual therapist,
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if you are not connected to some organization that has the infrastructure to respond,
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just don't show up right, find some way, some organization through which you
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can provide your services. I think that that's the biggest thing. So that
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initial response is often done through the Red Cross. That's very much a psychological
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first date approach. But I know as a Toronto therapist, I know as
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an Andrea approved consultant, that there's a role for desensitization immediately that can have
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a huge impact on the trajectory of healing for an individual and then individuals who
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make up the community. And so in the case with Parkland of the therapist
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that I connected with ultimately was a part of a group that formed a nonprofit
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that has had an enormous impact in that community in linking survivors to vetic therapists
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who had the skills who are actually trauma therapists. And so you know,
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that's one of the key pieces. It's like, you don't want to be
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part of the burden that that community has to bear. You want to be
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part of the solution, and that solution happens y responding appropriately and through the
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proper organizations. You said desensitization, Can you clarify more what you meant within
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the context that what you're speaking about there. Sure. So with desensitization,
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there are some really specific techniques that can take the layers of the distress that
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a person is experienced and sing and just just dial it down, okay.
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And so there's ways to do that immediately, and so there there's a role
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for trained therapists who know how to do that. What would they be for
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example, what would that what would that look like? So they're different techniques.
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So through the MDR lens, there's a few different ways to do that.
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There's a what we call recent event or a single event protocol that can
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be used. It's very kind of modified when you really zoom in on that
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specific event. There's also other approaches such as something called a flash technique.
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And with a flash technique, you can really bring say a thuds down from
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a ten to maybe maybe you get it down under five, but maybe you
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only get it down to a nine. But the difference between a nine and
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a ten is is tremendous for that individual. But you will allow their brains.
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The brain is so traumatized in that moment, it is on such high
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alert, it is producing and over producing like a million times over. You
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know, all of the stress hormones cortisol, epinephrine, adrenaline, and that
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degree of high alert. There's a way to relieve that. And I think
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that's a really key message that the right types of therapy is used immediately afterwards,
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as quickly and as soon as possible, can bring great relief. And
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that's not really in the talk therapy realm. But you know, talking isn't
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going to get deep enough into the brain where all of this dyscuption is happening
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in the limbic system, right, So if you keep bringing someone up into
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the neo cortex, right, keep functions of the brain go dark during traumatic
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moment. So you know, brokers area, which is very responsible for encoding
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language information, encoding that into memory, is offline during a traumatic, stressful
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event, and so a person cannot tell you a cohesive story and that effort
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to keep asking for one is likely to be triggering. And in that trainering
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moment, which we can do in a heartbeat, like we can trigger a
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client very easily, getting them to a regulated state is a lot more work.
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So there is this elevated path to I think emergency response that we haven't
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fully embraced yet. But we have to be the message for that I think
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in the world that there's a way to help people get better faster, and
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the sooner we're that we're allowed to do that, the better for the clients,
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you know, being very aware of how to how and what kind of
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treatment to provide. Here in the immediate aftermath, say even the two days
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when you were called in there at that time, are you talking about providing
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this type of treatment as opposed to even more of what even comes before that,
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just kind of trying to stabilize, trying to comfort, right, I
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mean, even before you're delivering any kind of thing like that. What I'm
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saying is that those treatments can be provided immediately right away, Okay, And
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there's absolutely supportive therapy is very helpful, like if someone's just been through a
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traumatic event, absolutely, but there's ways to start to down regulate what the
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central nervous system is doing and with the brain, how the brain is functioning
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in those moments, simple simple little things that can be done that can make
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a huge difference. But as we know, right with Masslow's hierarchy of needs,
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basic needs need to be met and then depending on what that kind of
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communal trauma is. So if we're talking about something that's what more weather related.
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For example, you know, someone may need housing, they may need
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food, they may need medication, and that is going to take precedent before
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you know, any kind of intervention that might be done. So it really
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depends on the circumstance for sure. But I think the message that I really
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want to communicate is that there's ways for us to intervene, intervene quickly and
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well, and that no one needs to tell and retail their traumatic story,
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regardless of the reason for it, in order to get well. I want
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to start talking about kind of shift gears here, and I started talking about
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preverbal trauma. But before we get there, how did you become this go
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to person for these school shootings? Yeah, so you know where I live
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in Connecticut, I actually treated a lot of nine to eleven survivors very early
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on in my career because where I'm located was a you know, just a
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train ride away from New York. So, you know, my entire career
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has been influenced for the eyes of trauma and I'm a trauma therapists just how
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I identify myself and so that was really that first piece, that introduction that
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really started to show me that you know, people's lives are altered in an
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instant, and we have ways to help them regain a sense of equilibrium and
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even well being, even peace. And I will say that my clients have
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taught me a tremendous amount about how to do the work that I do.
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Each one of them is a teacher to me and what they bring, and
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so, you know, I think that was the first piece. And when
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you have something that life altering, as the school shooting happened really in my
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backyard. For me, I knew in that moment that I was going to
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respond. I didn't know how, I did not know what it was going
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to look like, but that I knew I had to do something. That
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my world had changed in that moment, and so there was no looking back.
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And really from that moment on, it was just for me to fig
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sort out figure out what that was going to be and where I was going
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to do it. Yeah, I mean, as you're talking about that,
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I'm thinking there's so many layers to this, these school shootings. I mean,
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the co communal aspect of it and of itself is just mind blowing.
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How a whole community and obviously the nation too, and more I was just
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thinking and more right, and those are like the inner circle is that you
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know those who are there in that moment, and then you've got their families,
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and then you've got the people that love those families, and then you've
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got the other schools, and then you've got this just the community at home.
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But then you've got the world, and you know, and there's a
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huge difference between twenty twelve and that Sandy Hook shooting happened and five years later
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when Stoneman Douglas happened because of social media. So you know, back in
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the days of Sandy Hook, there wasn't social media just wasn't the thing that
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it is in our lives today, and but five years later it absolutely is,
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and even now even more so. And so it is the immediacy with
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which we receive information. We see images. You know, there's that iconic
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video clip from nine to eleven of the airplanes flying into the towers in New
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York, where anyone from our generation has seen. So there is this sense
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of that vicarious traumatization that gets spread out into the world. And and I
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think if you're a human being, if you are a resident of the United
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States, this is happening far too frequently, but outside of the United States,
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they just do not understand. Why is it that in the United States
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we have so many school shootings and you know, this has become a norm
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that we have to change. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I
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can I can go on with this topic, but I do want to.
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Given the opportunity to talk to us about preverbal trauma. What is it specifically?
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You know, so you asked me what did I learn? And that
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alone, you know, could be hours to discuss. But one of the
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things that I've learned is that someone can have this big thing that happens to
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them, but that's likely not the only thing that's happened to them for most
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people, and it's learning to like broaden our field to look at what else
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has happened in this person's life that's impacting how they are in this moment.
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So, for example, a lot of Sandy Hook residents commuted into the city,
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into New York City and had been impacted by nine to eleven as well.
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So they've had this double hit of this huge communal traumas. But what
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about you and your life and what else is going on? And that's where
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we have to look at the whole person, and what are the other experts
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speriences, And when you know you're working with someone and you just see that
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things aren't moving the way you think they should, they're not getting better.
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And we know that the childhood timeframes were just not well, they were not
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healthy. There was some form of abuse, there was some form of abandonment.
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It is the difference between explicit memory. Explicit memory is what'd you have
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for breakfast today? You're going to be able to tell me, right,
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that's a memory. Implicitly stored information is in the body. It's in our
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senses, what you see, what you hear, what you smell, what
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you taste. Implicitly stored experience is what preverbal trauma is. And there's there's
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really no way to get to that without working through the body and without working
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somatically. And so you know, when you're working with an adult now and
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they've been divorced a few times and their relationships in general aren't going well and
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they're just disregulated on an ongoing basis, and you know they've had a really,
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really not great childhood, you know, it raises the question what else
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is there? They're never going to be able to tell us right, because
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they don't have that explicit memory. It's impossible for a baby to develop memory.
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And it's that probing looking through the lens of the body that's just so
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powerful and can really stabilize and help to create a sense of a secure self
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that oftentimes is missing in complex trauma. Wow, you know. And the
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reality about complex trauma is that most trauma is complex trauma. It is rare
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to have somebody who has a single event trauma. I mean, it does
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happen, but it's just not that comment. So it's really looking through the
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whole lifespan to really to get a full idea of what's happening. I want
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to put you on the spot here and ask you to share with us an
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example of when you were working with someone and your frievable trauma came in to
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the situation. Sure, and so working with a client had been working with
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her for a while, very complex trauma, new childhood wasn't great, and
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we would get to a place and she'd be saying, like, get this
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sensation, my body tightens up. She's but there's no memory, okay,
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and that's repetitive, right, So that's a red flag that there's likely pre
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grabal trauma. If someone comes in and you, you know, you're asking
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some of the attachment focus and take questions, and you're seeing that their relationship
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to mother was interrupted for some reason. Interruption is going to happen for good
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things and for bad things. It could be for abuse, it could be
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for neglect. It could also be simply because mom had to go back to
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work at six weeks after birth, or mom was sick and needed to go
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back into the hospital for surgery and there was a gap and that attunement between
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you know, the baby and the mother. So any breach in connection between
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baby and mom creates preverbal trauma. Wow, so that's something that happened at
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that age. Is yes, showing up to a certain degree throughout the lifespan.
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Absolutely absolutely, And in fact, this can be in utero. It
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can be at conception, right if the circumstances of the conception or say out
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of violence where there wasn't consent, that's something that your adult client may still
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experience and not understand. It just certainly widens the scope of how many of
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us have experienced trauma of one sort or another. It absolutely does, and
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it's a part of you knows as I really start to get into this part
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of my work. It answered so many questions. It answered why there was
26:33
incomplete you know, treatment outcomes at times, why you know, clients weren't
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moving along in the way that I had hoped for. But it has also
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given me the tools to change that trajectory, and I you know, I'm
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now training other therapists how to do this right. How do you work these
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pre verbal time frames? What needs to be done, what kind of ego
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strength of work needs to be done to set up for success. There is
27:08
an EMDR approach. It's called the Early Trauma Protocol, and it's really sensory
27:14
based because it's implicit. It's not explicit memory. That incredibly powerful work that
27:22
really I think every trauma therapist really needs to understand and wanted to really be
27:29
doing your job is fully and to the you know, the best outcome for
27:33
your client. And so this is I'm very passionate about its developed training.
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I'm training other therapists so that more of us are out there really looking through
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the entire lifespan. When did you become interested in this topic of pre verbal
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trauma? At least certainly when I was in Sandy Hawk because the way that
27:59
people were presenting, and then you know, you get a few years out
28:03
after the event, and why is it that certain people are still so symptomatic?
28:08
Right, That's the question I would ask, not why are you like
28:12
this? But why is this happening? What are we missing? What else
28:17
is going on? And that's why you have to step back from that single
28:21
event and look at the whole story of their life. And you know,
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I was an intake with a gentleman a couple of months ago nine to eleven
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responder, and it's twenty two years later and he is still highly symptomatic.
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And so my first question is what was missed? What hasn't been addressed?
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And I said, so was your childhood? Like? Oh, it was
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horrible? My mother was an alcoholics. She almost burned the house down.
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I said, have you ever worked on that? It's like no, Okay,
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well maybe we need to do that in order for you to heal whatever's
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remaining from what you experienced on nine to eleven. Now, let me ask
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what might too. A lot of our listeners seem like a an enlightened question,
29:17
but why would that possibly be important? Because that's the foundation for how
29:22
a person developed, Right, So, the mindset is that you need to
29:26
go to the earliest possible space that you can go to to heal as much
29:32
as you can and as because it isn't where there's neglect, where there's abuse.
29:37
You know, the want of neglect is what someone didn't get. And
29:40
so that if you didn't get the love that you needed at a very tender
29:45
age, you will not develop a sense of a secure self. You don't
29:49
develop a sense of a secure self that's going to impact that person throughout their
29:53
life in all forms of relationships. And so we we want to get to
30:00
those foundational traumas to heal those, clear those, we process those, you
30:07
know, reset the brain for those, in order to allow whatever else might
30:12
be happening in the here and now to start to shift. Yeah yeah,
30:15
wow, yeah, but you are amazing. You know we before we got
30:21
on here, like what are we going to talk about? Obviously there's you
30:25
have. You're like one of those people who don't know or maybe you do,
30:27
but you certainly you don't, not aware of how much wisdom you have.
30:33
I mean, I could be talking to you for for so many hours.
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Yeah, what's okay, let's wind down here. What's the best way
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for people to get in contact with you. Sure, so, my website
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Center for Neuropotential dot com. Okay, is a great way email contact at
30:52
Center for Neuropotential dot com and uh which and also I do have an coming
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training in September September fifteenth, which can be found on Neuropotential Academy dot com
31:08
New Potential Academy dot com. All right, we'll have that link up here
31:11
at the show notes page at the Trauma the Business Podcast dot com. GEB,
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come on, you're amazing, my god, so inspiring. Thank you
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so much for coming back here. You're welcome back anytime. Thank you.
31:23
That's very kind. I appreciate it. All right, take care, all
31:27
right, so you'll send me a link once this is ready you have enough,
31:32
we'll definitely send you a link. All right, take care, thanks
31:34
yep, by bye