Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Honesty, Respect & Responsibility: Choosing Your Values Without Religion — Ryan Liston
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (01:06) Hey Rye, how are you doing tonight? Ryan Liston (01:08) Hey, Bryn. I'm doing amazing. Thanks. Thanks for having me on here. How are you? Brynne Erickson (01:13) Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm excited for a conversation about human qualities and words Ryan is my brother. I've interviewed him a couple of times now in the early startings of my podcast. And he has since distanced himself from organized religion. And he mentioned that in this process he's kind of had to decide who he wants to be and what he wants to guide his life. And he brought up the word honesty and what it means to be an honest person and kind of his figuring out if that's something that he wants to be and do in his life. So there are a couple of words we're going to be talking about tonight. our thoughts about them. and those words are honest, respect or respectful and responsible. But before we dive into those words, Rye, do you want to give any more little like background on kind of your process of figuring out who you want to be and what you want to be guided by? Ryan Liston (02:23) no I I think it'll come out while we're talking. I think it'll Brynne Erickson (02:26) Mm. Ryan Liston (02:26) it'll all come out while we're talking. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (02:29) Okay, then let's do it. So let's start with honest. I thought that was so fascinating that that was the first word that you brought up. You're like, do I want to be an honest person? Like what does that even mean? What would that look like? Ryan Liston (02:38) Yeah. Well, I think to your question you just asked, and this is maybe where where I feel like that we'll get into this. I mean when I when when faith was something that I needed to reevaluate in my brain, the faith that I had, and I was letting go of the religion that I'd grown up with. I was changing what God looked like for me. And all these different things. Well, both of those entities, God and the religious system that I'd grown up with, they they essentially told me how to be a person, at least in my frame of reference. I had decided that they were the ultimate decision makers for me. Not society, not the people around me, but God and the organized religion. I can talk deeper on that, but that's not today. but anyways, like they were they were my my main sources of all knowledge. All decision making, everything in that one of those things was values. And I would say that the words we're talking about today are values, are value-driven, especially honesty. and I remember essentially what happened was I no longer had these value makers in my life, and I didn't have anything to replace them. I remember walking down the steps one day in the business school at BYU, and I had the thought. Why should I not lie? Why should I be honest? And I didn't have an answer. I just I had no answer. I I couldn't answer that question anymore because no no other force was telling me why that should be for myself be for me, why I should be honest. And I I was very taken aback at the time and it's been something that I've I guess the the process of recreating those values, recreating those words. into something that means something to me is has just been a journey. It's been slow, it's been sure, it's been an evaluation, it's been a choice. It's been very choice based. but yeah it that that's that's how I've dove into values or what why I dove into values is because I didn't have a source giving me values anymore. And I It felt necessary it has felt necessary as a human being to choose values. And and yeah, honesty has been has been one of them that has been near and dear to my heart 'cause the first one I questioned. Brynne Erickson (05:11) Yeah, and I love values. I think even outside of religion, it's important to acknowledge what guides us in the type of human, in the person, in the type of person that we wanna be for ourselves Ryan Liston (05:26) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (05:27) and for humanity. And as we make choices, making sure that our choices align with those values and reflect the kind of person that we wanna be. And our Aunt Colette, which I have another episode with, she taught me about this system that she uses to help make things happen and essentially make choices. And the first thing you do is acknowledge what your values are and like what is going to guide you in making this decision and making sure that you embody those throughout the whole process. So I think whether you're part of religion or not. we have this system of values that kind of keep humans in check with who they want to be or who we think people should be. And that's an interesting Ryan Liston (06:25) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (06:26) one too, because at the end of the day we get to choose like, is this a value I'd want to admonish or it doesn't really matter to me. Like honesty. There's plenty of people that that's not something that they Strive to be for whatever reason. Ryan Liston (06:43) No. Brynne Erickson (06:43) That would be an interesting conversation to have with someone. Ryan Liston (06:47) Yeah, no kidding. Brynne Erickson (06:48) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (06:48) That would be. But for me it it's something that that has mattered clearly since some I talk about. And I I would say that my my direction of evaluating some of these more we'll call them common values, I guess. common values, societal values, if you will, even like honesty. my direction in doing that evaluation has been what type of world do I want to live in? And what what actions and what views do I personally feel like help lead towards that type of world. You know, and and I feel strongly about wanting to live in the type of world where people care about each other, take care of each other, respect each other, which is a word we'll probably get to. but those that that matters to me. And so I've really tried to evaluate what types of qualities potentially, in my opinion, help us get to that type of that type of world. And I do think honesty is one of those. I think it's nuanced. I think that there's different ways to be honest and and whatnot. But I do think on average honesty helps us deal with one another in a way that that brings about goodness, brings about trust. and trust is very useful in building a society of care. And so I I think honesty matters. Brynne Erickson (08:16) I love that. I love I didn't even think about that. That our values could guide us to the world that we hope to live in. Not just the person that you want to be, but the person Ryan Liston (08:29) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (08:30) that you want to be for everybody. Like that's so beautiful. I love that, right? Ryan Liston (08:35) Yeah. Be what is what is the phrase? Be the change you want to see in the world, right? Well it's I guess it's the same thing. Be the person that you feel like is embodying the type of world you want to live in. And I'm I'm not perfect by any means. I I I think about all the things I do wrong, but this is one that I've thought about and said, Yeah, that's one I can really I can embody, I can work on, I can try is to be honest. And I think that that that is helpful. Brynne Erickson (09:01) What do you think about the concept of withholding truth? Because you believe that it would hurt somebody. Ryan Liston (09:08) Yeah, I wondered if you're gonna ask this. that and that's one I I mean, just one minute ago I said that honesty is nuanced. This is why honesty Brynne Erickson (09:14) Yes. Ryan Liston (09:15) is nuanced, is because I do think that there are instances in which withholding can actually be more helpful than harmful. Now, who gets to decide that? Brynne Erickson (09:25) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (09:26) I I don't I don't know. I don't think I get to be the person to choose for everybody like what is the line. I can just say that there are moments when I think It is useful. I've experienced them, I guarantee it. I could probably come up with some examples if I had to, but or even just like general examples. But yeah, like it's totally it's totally fine. Actually I've I've got an example. one time when I was in high school, I was driving around at night with with a gal and a deer ran out and jumped right into my car, right in the side of it. And unfortunately I ran over the leg of the deer. Like I it jumped at me in the dark. I was only going thirty, I wasn't even on a fast road. But I got its leg, called the cops, called animal control, they came. And they told me and the gal in the car was was quite distressed about this happening and the deer was laying in a yard and they came up and told me they're like, We're gonna have to put the deer down. Like unfortunately it like it can't do anything with a broken leg. And and I got back in the car and she was like really distressed and was like, my gosh, like, do they have to kill it? And I in that moment was just like, No, actually it's gonna be okay. Did I have to say that? No. do I actually think that was the right decision at this point? I don't think I needed to say that. But at the mo in the moment I thought it was more helpful. do Brynne Erickson (10:59) Mm. Ryan Liston (11:00) I do do I think it created something bad? No, I really don't. Do I think it was harmful? I also don't think it was harmful. so there are there are times in which I think that it isn't a bad thing. Brynne Erickson (11:15) Yeah, and I think it's when we're on the receiving end and when we find out the truth and we f maybe feel angry or upset about that. I think it's important to come to realize at some point that it was out of like love and genuine Ryan Liston (11:33) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (11:34) like there was a genuine loving motive behind the reasoning. Not always, sometimes it's a manipulative motive. Ryan Liston (11:43) Very many people. Brynne Erickson (11:43) Hence the term narcissism is such a hot thing right now. But Ryan Liston (11:47) Sure. Sure, yeah. Brynne Erickson (11:50) yeah, I think because I had someone ask me once, they're like, Yeah, we've stepped away from the church and I don't really want to tell my parents and they're kind of getting old. And I just I don't know if I should tell Like that's up to you. Like how to navigate that and what your motive is and you get to own that. And if some You know, if they figure it out one day, then that's a further discussion that you get to have, right? And you can say why you did what you did. Ryan Liston (12:18) Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (12:20) Yeah. So yes, nuanced values can be nuanced, right? I I find that fascinating, right? Like, Ryan Liston (12:25) Values are nuanced because they're subjective. Brynne Erickson (12:29) yeah, they totally are. In some circumstances it's black and in some circumstances it's white. Like it's so interesting. Ryan Liston (12:38) Yeah. Yeah, it is. subjectivity is is certainly one of the things that makes words I mean we kind of started this off with words, it makes words so fascinating. Is like we'll even come up with a definition for a thing, for a word. Brynne Erickson (12:54) Mm. Ryan Liston (12:55) And the way that everybody practices that definition looks very different. Or the ideals or the the stories that get placed along with those those words is completely different for every single person. And so it is very seldom black and white. And people well, in in my opinion, people try to project black and white onto things that are hard to be black and white, even though we some people may want it to be that way. We just don't function in that kind Brynne Erickson (13:28) Can you think of an example? Ryan Liston (13:29) of world. I mean, yeah, I can. Let's talk about let's talk about That's the one I wanna do right now. Let's talk about responsibility, for example. and I'll I'll share something with myself. And actually, you started off with the fact that I I I have been on a faith transition. There was a time in my life where I felt personally responsible to a duty to God and to a church and to be a certain way, to do a lot of certain things. There were very specific things I should, shouldn't do, and I felt a responsibility to do those things, to be that kind of person. And other people would also think that I had that responsibility. Well, now I've gone, I've changed, my own life journey has taken me other directions, and I no longer feel the responsibility for many of those things. And yet I guarantee that there are some people who look at me and say, Wow, Ryan is still responsible for all those things because Yada yada, X, Y, and Z, you know, like he served in LDS mission. He used to say that he believed a certain way, or he thought a certain way, or he felt a certain way. Therefore, he is responsible, or he was baptized. So he is responsible for these different things. And I guarantee there's a whole other camp of people who have also who either have no affiliation with religion or have have taken a journey that's taken them away or or in different places with religion who would look at it and be like, Absolutely not. The guy changed. Like he just did. People change. It's what they do. And and also have different views on religion and what it is and whatnot. And so they just wouldn't view it in the same way. That right there is one more personal personal example. And I and I'm not gonna say whether I'm right. I'm not gonna say whether anybody's right. I don't but that's the subjectivity of this, right? Where some people within both of those spectrum, both camps, probably see things quite black and white. Is it? Well, again, if you're a black and white thinker, you're gonna be tell saying to me right now, listening to this podcast, yeah, Ryan, it is. And that's and also I don't that's okay. If you feel that way, if you're the kind of person if you're listening to this podcast and you're feeling that way, like you have the right to feel that way. And I don't. And I hope that you respect the fact that I also have the right to feel that way, and to believe in the way that I do and to change and whatnot. And so anyways, there's there's nuance. There's subjectivity. Brynne Erickson (16:00) Okay, a couple of things. What is the definition of responsible then when you're using that word? Like when you say I am responsible to the Ryan Liston (16:08) In that Yeah. Brynne Erickson (16:11) baptism that I had, the mission that Ryan Liston (16:13) Yeah, what is that definition? Brynne Erickson (16:15) I served, in what context does that mean? Ryan Liston (16:19) Yeah, I would say I would say that it's it's an obligation to do something based on based on a role that I've had. You know, like I was I was a devout Mormon. Brynne Erickson (16:32) Mm. Ryan Liston (16:32) And so it is certainly at the time it was an obligation to do certain things. Brynne Erickson (16:39) Mm. Ryan Liston (16:40) At least I felt that way. Now again. It's it's not it's nuanced. It's it's subjective. But I that's the phrase that's what I would say it is. It's an obligation to do something because of a role that you are playing. I think that that that goes along with like being a manager, a manager of people. Like it is probably a good it is responsible for a manager to keep tabs on their employees. Do they have to? No, but it's it's an obligation that due to the role that they're in. So as a as a Mormon, I had an obligation is so the question becomes well, I guess that's a whole different thing. That's a tangent on Mormonism and changing religions, but yeah. It it's just can you change and can you change responsibility? Is responsibility fluid? Is it not? I mean that's that's another question, but that's a little bit different from just the nuance of words. Brynne Erickson (17:35) Yeah, I was looking into the etymology of all of these words before we started. I love how words have changed over time. in what they mean. And responsible Let's see. Yeah, the responsible modern definitions are accountable. So have a duty to look after someone or something, having good judgment, trustworthy, being capable of rational thought and moral decision making without guidance. Ryan Liston (18:14) That's fascinating. Brynne Erickson (18:15) right? a responsible position, a job or role that involves important decision making. Being a responsible person. And then the ethical framework suggesting that individuals or businesses have an obligation, there's that word, to act for the benefit of society at large. So yeah, it's it's an interesting word when I think about it as a parent, right? We look at other parents like that was not very responsible parenting, you know. When you let your child do something and then Susie down the street is like, I would never let my child jump ten feet off the ground on the playground as my son is jumping off with Spider-Man hands and landing in the Spider-Man position on his feet, you know? And yeah, it's it's so interesting. And I guess the question for me becomes where we don't see things eye to eye, like how do we have How do we respect each other's decisions? Like how does someone respect my parenting style? How do I respect other parent people's parenting styles? How do we how does one respect your decisions regarding religion? And how do you respect their viewpoints and perspective on religion? Any thoughts on that? Like, how do we have opposing perspectives and opinions and yet still have respect for one another? Brynne Erickson (19:51) Hey, really quick, if you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance you're in the middle of something. Questions you haven't said out loud yet, a faith that feels different than you used to. And I've actually built a community. It's called Faith in Process. It's exactly for people like you and like me. It's actually the space I wish I had when I was in the middle of my big questions and when my faith was shifting. It's a membership community. Specifically for Latter-day Saints who are expanding their faith and want to do it in good company. And if that sounds like you, come and join us. The wait list is open at Bryn Erickson.com/slash wait list. I hope to see you there. Ryan Liston (20:35) Yeah. I you know I think for me, I'm I think I can only speak for myself in this in this scenario. And so I'll speak for myself. I actually did look up a definition of of respect before we hopped into this conversation. and I actually there's two different definitions that I think I I like both of them, and so I want to quickly read them off. the first one is a feeling of deep. Admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements. So it's a deep admiration for someone or something based on who they are and what they do. Brynne Erickson (21:18) Mm. Ryan Liston (21:19) That's essentially what that is. And then number two is due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others. And I think I think both of those essentially in for the way that I've distilled what both of those are is a feeling of admiration for who a person is and what they do and due regard for a person's feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions. I have distilled that down to The fact that me being a person is equal to another person being a person. And I know that that can be its own topic. I know that people can debate deep into that area, but but I'm I'm going to use that and say that because because I recognize that I'm a person, other people are people, that that is a basis. for respect because I admire who someone is just by being a person. Like that's enough. Brynne Erickson (22:24) Mm. Ryan Liston (22:25) And then the other the other thing for me, and this is this is one that becomes my own quite frankly, this is where this is where nuance and this is where subjectivity comes in is that I also place some other things with it. Like it's not just good enough for somebody just to be a person. I wish it was, but I have other things like one of the things I think I closed out the last podcast episode with is I am I feel strongly that people can make what people can live the lives they want and choose things based on three conditions, as long as they are happy, peaceful, and doing as little harm as possible. Harm in itself is subjective. Happiness and Brynne Erickson (23:03) Yes. Ryan Liston (23:04) peace are both subjective like again, I I fully understand Brynne Erickson (23:06) Mm. Ryan Liston (23:06) those things, but but I have my own definitions of harm. And people who Brynne Erickson (23:12) Yeah. Ryan Liston (23:13) are doing certain things do not fall into the realm of I guess not doing harm, you know? And But for me it's basically distilled down into that. Like if they're people and they are doing a lack of harm, then respect. Respect is due. and even maybe people who are doing some sort of harm can have some respect in some ways and in other ways have no respect. I also think that may be part of it. I I'm now rambling, it feels like, but Brynne Erickson (23:43) You're doing good. Ryan Liston (23:44) I Yeah, I mean another thing too is you don't have to agree with everything. You Brynne Erickson (23:49) Mm-hmm. Ryan Liston (23:50) just you just don't. I can have a political conversation with somebody and I'll be like, Wow, yeah, I just I don't agree with you at all. Like I totally don't. But I like you as a person. I Brynne Erickson (24:01) Mm. Ryan Liston (24:01) agree with who you are and how you act and how you treat other people and the way that you show up in the world. And I really don't understand the way that you feel about X. And I actually like don't agree with you and I think that the way you think is not great for society, but also you as a person are good for society. and the way that you are treating others, kinda like I said, if you're being the kind of person who's building that society that we want. maybe your thoughts and decisions and your opinion maybe aren't leading towards the society I think we should have, but I also think that you're a good person, therefore I don't think you're trying to do harm. and I yeah, I That's n that's gonna be hard. There's g it's gonna be a case by case basis, but that's I think that's been respect for me is just still still down to person and as little harm as possible. And then it unfortunately I I couldn't just tell you what those things are. It's more of a case by case basis. Brynne Erickson (24:54) Yeah, I've kind of honed in on that too. Like, are you intentionally trying to take advantage of somebody and harm them? Ryan Liston (25:03) Mm. Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (25:05) to hurt them, to take away their agency and to act upon them for your benefit, your gain. Like Ryan Liston (25:12) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (25:13) to me that's that's a no no. Like I'm gonna fight against you on that one. But Ryan Liston (25:18) Sure. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (25:20) other than that, like politics opinions on yeah, how to be a human as far as your sexual preferences, your finances, yeah, politics, religion. If you're not hurting people intentionally to take advantage of them for your gain, then yeah, I I respect that, I suppose. I could put it in that way. but I love how you said like I think it's so important to look at people as a whole. Like, pull in the scripture by their fruits, ye shall know them. Like Ryan Liston (26:02) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:03) I think that's a good one. There's so what are they doing in the world? How are they trying to contribute to light and good and peace and love? Even if you don't see how you're both trying to get there in different ways, is that the end goal? So I love that you brought that up. That's such an important thing to look at when we look at people is not to just unfriend them because they voted for someone different than you and disregard all of the other awesome things about them or discredit a relationship just because of one choice or one thing that someone said or did. And remember Ryan Liston (26:46) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (26:46) that the perspective is bigger and obviously. Yeah, case by case. Like this isn't just an overall general statement I make, but I think sometimes we can be too quick to put put people aside because of something we don't agree on. And rather than trying to find common ground, which I think we usually can. Like I said, I I'm learning that most of the time we're all all aiming for the same outcome and the same Ryan Liston (27:13) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (27:13) goal. We just have different ways of getting there. And I've even re learned Ryan Liston (27:17) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (27:18) that with religion, like Pretty much all religious practices are striving for the same things. They're just going about it different ways. And to me, that's beautiful. And I love that. And it makes it so accessible to so many different people and what resonates with them. And I I love it. And and from a religious perspective, for me, I've come to realize that because like it was divinely made that there are so many different ways of being human. Because to me, that was the whole point was to be able to learn and grow and it creates empathy and compassion. And if we just always agreed, there would never be a need to try and see someone else's perspective. And you wouldn't ever have to grapple with that. And you wouldn't grow and have to challenge your own thoughts if we just agreed all the time. So I love I love that it's actually an essential part of this human experience to not agree and not be on the same page. But then my big question is is how do we do that? How do we get along and respect each other even when we don't agree? So I think you gave some good good advice. Ryan Liston (28:35) Thank you. It's a hard topic. It's a hard thing to to figure out. Brynne Erickson (28:40) Yeah, I know this is kind of funny and petty, but in the beginning of my faith journey, I felt like a rebellious teenager and I was like, I'm just gonna do what I want, and I don't understand why I have to do these things. So this is gonna sound this might sound awful to some people, but I remember being at a scenario where we were doing the pledge of allegiance, and I was wearing a hat at the time and we were outside and it was super hot and sunny, and we were doing the pledge of allegiance, and I didn't want to take my hat off. I was like, this is stupid, like. Ryan Liston (29:07) Ha ha. Brynne Erickson (29:08) I shouldn't have to do this. And if I don't take it off and people don't like that, that's their problem. Like I have my reasons and I like my reasons. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just truly don't want to take my hat off. Even though I know I should. And one Ryan Liston (29:22) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (29:23) of the ladies I was with was like poking me like, Brain, take your hat off. And she was like so insistent. And that like fueled my fire, but I did take it off eventually. But I was just Aunri. And I was just mad about it. And I've thought about things like like that, like tradition, respect for people's rights, traditions, beliefs. And just because I don't choose to live that way or to participate in that thing like every day or embody it or embrace it Doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be a pill about it or rude about it or be like, you guys are dumb. Like, I don't get why you choose to do it this way. This is so inefficient. Ryan Liston (30:08) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (30:09) This is so unnecessary. Like can embrace it for what it is with them or just choose to not participate in it. obviously when it's a part of what your country does, when you go to every event, you get to decide. And again, you get to let the people around you choose what they're gonna think. about it and do what they're gonna do about it and say what they're gonna say. But you have to be willing to take that on if you're not gonna do what the tribe is doing. And yeah, I don't need to go in too deep about that. But it is interesting as a part of my journey of trying to claim my sovereignty and my agency that I've been like, why do I do the things I do? Not even in religion necessarily, but even I said like our cultural traditions as the United States of America and even things that people might expect you to do as a parent and you're like, I actually don't know that I want to do that. I don't wanna raise my child to think that or believe that or do that and Ryan Liston (31:16) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (31:18) Interesting. A lot of it I'm learning is coming up with the reasons, intentionally coming up with my reasons and what I want to do and believe, and then letting people have their own thoughts and feelings about the way I'm doing life. But because I'm so secure and confident in how I've chosen to live, it almost doesn't matter as much. how people receive it because I'm not doing it for them, even though I am doing it for kinda like you said, the world I'm wanting to create, the family I'm c trying to create, the relationship I'm trying to create with my Ryan Liston (31:59) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (32:01) kids and what I'm trying to teach them, even if people don't agree with me. Ryan Liston (32:08) Yeah. That's really beautiful. Brynne Erickson (32:11) Thanks. Ryan Liston (32:12) John. I love that. Well, it's f it is it is it is funny to me how you talked about like not taking the hat off and the rebelliousness of that and And yeah, I've I've learned a lot over the last few years of my life that letting people or I guess well yeah, letting people choose what they're gonna choose is important. and having the the self esteem to do so is hard. Brynne Erickson (32:40) Mm. Ryan Liston (32:40) It's very hard. but it but it is important. And it's important to realize that people get to make their own choices. again, like if you're doing the least amount of harm, that would be the goal. But yeah, I mean I I had a period of time where I thought I needed to run away from Utah and run away from everything that was around here because I needed to get away from Mormonism, quote unquote. So I ran away to New York City and I was there for three months and I had a great time, but I came back and I realized Well, A, I realized I didn't want to live in New York City, so I came back to Utah. And I just realized, man, the people here love me. I have friends, Mormon and non Mormon, who just totally accept me as I am and are very okay with where I'm at. And And I feel like that that was that was respect in that that definition. Like we we admired who each other were and each other's rights and traditions and And that was good. That was good for us. That was good enough for us. and I still I still feel that way. I still feel that way about the people around me. they love me and I love them and we don't see eye to eye on everything, and that's okay. And that's been good enough. Brynne Erickson (34:05) I still think it's important to like keep in mind that everyone has a reason and they typically think it's a good reason for the things that they do. Ryan Liston (34:18) Yeah, that's true. Brynne Erickson (34:19) So like even if I were to see someone not wearing a hat during the Pledge of Allegiance, I could get all upset about that and offended by that. Or I can be like, you know, they probably think that they have a really good reason. Or Ryan Liston (34:36) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (34:37) or maybe they forgot. Like, maybe like maybe it's not even a great reason. But it's a reason and I get to make meaning of that. And so often we choose to take the offended, like taking a personal route. When I I'm learning a lot of the times, it's I it actually wasn't and we made up this whole huge story and made it about us when it actually had nothing to do with us in the first place. So it's been really helpful to me when I'm an observer of someone. To get curious and be like, I wonder why they said this thing or did that thing. Maybe it's because they are having a bad day, or they didn't have resources, or they, you know, rather than turning it back and making it personal, getting stepping into compassion and like. what could maybe I do to lighten their load when they behaved in such a way or said such a mean thing or did something that was unkind. And like that shifts it for everything and for everybody, including more for myself, because one, I'm not putting myself through that pain and that discomfort of like, they hate me and this was a personal attack and how dare they and then we start to feel more love instead of Fear and anger, which is a really cool thing. And I that served me a lot, especially with like just church drama. Like when p someone says something at to me at church or doesn't say something to me, or when I could step into thinking that they're ignoring me on purpose, or like all the petty thoughts that come into our mind that cause drama. Like we don't have to, we don't have to step into that drama. We can be like, no, actually Ryan Liston (36:42) Yeah, we don't have to. Brynne Erickson (36:44) I'm gonna choose to see it in a more enlightened, loving, compassionate way. Even if I'm wrong. But until they tell me their real reasoning behind this, I get to make up whatever story I want. So I'm gonna choose an empowering one instead of a disempowering one. Ryan Liston (37:02) That's really cool. That's really cool. Brynne Erickson (37:04) That's a life coaching thing I've learned. It served me well. Ryan Liston (37:08) My mission president. See, I still have great things I learned from Brynne Erickson (37:10) Yeah. Ryan Liston (37:13) people. But my mission president, he would always say, always assume innocence and good intentions first. That's Brynne Erickson (37:20) Yeah, I love that. Ryan Liston (37:22) what he said. And I'm like, yeah. That it just made sense. It may still make sense. It's exactly what you're saying. Hard practice. It is a it's a Brynne Erickson (37:29) Mm-hmm. Yes. Ryan Liston (37:31) practice, it's a choice. But it yeah, it it's a it's worth the endeavor. It's worthwhile. Brynne Erickson (37:37) Mm-hmm. I'll never forget my friend Katie in high school. We were driving on the freeway and someone cut us off. And she I'll never forget, she said, I hope they get to where they need to go safely and that they have a great day. And that was so impactful for me, especially as a teenager, where I was like, That guy just cut you off. Like, that was so rude. What a jerk. And I didn't say any of that out loud because she was so quick to step into compassion. And that was so beautiful to me, even as a kid. And I've tried to admonish that, especially on the road, because that's where I tend to get the meanest, is in the comfort Ryan Liston (38:17) Thanks. Brynne Erickson (38:18) of my own car yelling at people who can't hear me, right? But now I have kids that I'm accountable accountable to. So I'm trying to be a little bit better, but Ryan Liston (38:26) Responsible for. Brynne Erickson (38:28) I use responsible for. yeah, I think that's really beautiful advice. Will you say that again? That your mission president said assume. Ryan Liston (38:38) Yeah, always assume innocence and good intentions first. Brynne Erickson (38:42) I love it. That's a great thought to end on, unless there's anything else that you want to add to this discussion. Ryan Liston (38:49) No. No, I think this was really lovely. I think I think for anybody who's who's listening to this We all have a choice. Like that's that's kind of my that's gonna be my takeaway from from today's discussion is that we all have a choice. And that Brynne Erickson (39:06) Always. Ryan Liston (39:07) choice is nuanced, it's subjective, it's all those things, but we have a choice. And we can choose to try to build the world the way that we want it to, which I hope that your view of the world is one that is beautiful and kind and helpful and caring. But again, that's not it's not my choice for you, whoever you Brynne Erickson (39:31) Yeah. Ryan Liston (39:31) are, but I do hope that. Brynne Erickson (39:34) Yeah. Same. What can we do to bring each other closer together rather than further apart? Well, thank you, Ray. This is beautiful. And it's been really helpful because I just sit in the car and think of words all the time. And Ryan Liston (39:46) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (39:46) I'm like, I just need to talk about this with somebody. So thank you for talking about words with me tonight. Ryan Liston (39:50) It's been so fun. Thanks for thanks for inviting me on, Brent.