Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of The Evil of the Daleks (7/7)

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Talks to Jason Thompson about his choice of The Evil of the Daleks (7/7) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:40
Welcome back to a hamster with a blunt penknife the Doctor Who
0:44
commentary podcast, the only Doctor Who commentary podcast
0:48
that spreads. The Dalek Factor all through
0:50
time. I am here with the person who's
0:55
going to be doing this mr. Jason Thompson.
0:57
Hello. Hello.
0:59
How do you feel about your mission?
1:02
My mission is well, you know I won't work for you and you can't
1:05
make me do it. You can't.
1:08
Hello what I need. You to do is assemble a bunch of
1:11
bubbling, that's okay, in a big laboratory.
1:14
So you can turn the dial, o factor into steam and then
1:18
disperse it for out the entire universe.
1:22
Okay, well, let's see, I can probably do that or sometime
1:28
next week. I don't know.
1:31
Jason, I don't know if I've ever thought in this much depth about
1:36
the plot intricacies of evil of the Daleks before.
1:39
It don't make a bit of sense, does it not a jot not a joke?
1:45
No, whole business with the whole, all the clues and the
1:49
Sherlock Holmes stuff in the first one and a half.
1:51
Roads leading up to getting to the house total nonsense.
1:57
The Daleks hunting the human factor by threatening.
2:01
Jamie with lethal traps in Mexico house.
2:05
Not a jot of sense. They're either the fact that
2:07
they let the doctor stick the human factor that they don't
2:10
actually want in three dialects and leave him unsupervised while
2:13
doing so allowing these dialects to get to skaro.
2:18
Not a jot of sense there at all. Then, can I ask you, why is this
2:23
also enjoyable? Because David Whittaker is a
2:30
great writer. Even when he's writing stuff,
2:32
that doesn't make any sense. He's writing it well and because
2:35
the cast and the acting is absolutely wonderful and the set
2:39
design is gorgeous, the skaro city sets are amazing.
2:43
The visual juxtaposition of the Daleks with the old house in the
2:47
Middle episodes is Absolutely superb.
2:52
So actually while I got this here, somebody said doo doo doo
2:57
doo. On Twitter, somebody said doo
3:01
doo doo doo doo. I'm just trying to find them.
3:05
I had it a minute ago. Alright Jim Allen be said, is
3:08
this a perfectly structured 7 parter, is it the best one and a
3:12
half episode set in the 60s? The Middle episodes in
3:15
Victorian? Well, not London, it's outside
3:17
Canterbury and one-and-a-half. Episode set on skaro, never
3:21
feels tired, never drags. And I think that's really the
3:24
key. The fact that we keep going to
3:26
different places and moving the story on is Is excellent.
3:32
It's true. And there are sort of constantly
3:35
new characters coming along every couple of episodes.
3:38
So the sort of the car shaken up a bit as well and Jesus Christ.
3:42
Our plot goes off in some pretty fucking bizarre.
3:45
Directions as well to keep your toes.
3:48
Doesn't it just doesn't it? Just so then are we coming to
3:52
the conclusion then that it doesn't matter.
3:56
The plot is a load of goblins and a doctor who story as long.
3:59
Is, well, made well active and fun to watch.
4:03
I think that that is part of what makes Doctor Who so much
4:07
fun is that the plot is quite often total gubbins.
4:11
There are so many elements that go into making not just Doctor,
4:15
Who any any television, serial series, whatever that I think
4:23
that to expect or to hope that every episode will be watertight
4:31
in its plotting and fantastic in its acting and beautifully
4:34
produced is unrealistic. This is mass entertainment.
4:39
They're churning this out an episode a week, but, you know,
4:42
it's not easy to do. They don't have any.
4:47
I mean, this time in particular, they don't have any standing
4:49
sets. I mean consider that now,
4:52
they're making Doctor Who the Tardis set is a permanent fix.
4:55
Her in the studio. So you can always go into the
4:58
Tardis because it's always there.
5:00
Even if they don't need it for episode, it's they're always
5:03
constantly no such thing in 60s or and classic Who at all.
5:07
There were no standing sets, it's not like Star Trek where
5:10
you've always got, the bridge of the Enterprise set up or
5:12
anything like that. So every week because of this is
5:17
one show out of God knows how many that are being made by the
5:20
BBC in any given week every week when they do the recording, they
5:25
have to put the sets up from scratch.
5:27
Take them down again and put them back up again.
5:29
The four-week if they haven't moved on in, you know, in plot
5:33
terms and set locations and things.
5:35
So, The fact that we get this stuff is brilliant.
5:41
And yeah sometimes it's not going to make any sense the but
5:46
you know, you can you can cover that with some excellent moments
5:51
and great production, some good acting, you know, some of the
5:55
best Some of what are generally regarded as the best Doctor Who
5:59
stories are not necessarily the best plotted.
6:04
They may not necessarily be the best.
6:05
Produced Tomb of the Cybermen is a classic story which I
6:08
absolutely love. But it has some really shonky
6:10
production values. Yeah, some terrible Direction in
6:14
places. I mean you know trout and Heinz
6:17
a holding the tomb door closed with their feet in episode 1 is
6:20
that you only had to move the camera a little bit and get
6:23
their feet out of shot to avoid that whole issue.
6:29
You know, things like that and the fact the body but it is so
6:33
well made that you can really enjoy it.
6:35
And as long as it can carry you along for the 25 minutes of an
6:38
episode that you need to watch. Yeah.
6:41
Great. And the fact that it was made at
6:44
such a speed, but of this quality, Especially as
6:52
something, not even though the Daleks honest honest, honest
6:55
thing, because it has no no, right?
6:58
Really to be as as top quality as it is.
7:02
No. And when you think about things
7:04
like, I don't know the exact filming dates of some of the new
7:08
series. But you know, generally speaking
7:10
with the new series called it new.
7:13
It's now you can see 18 years old for crying out loud.
7:17
The the 21st century Doctor Who Generally speaking, I think
7:21
they've got the entire Series in the can before it puts out.
7:24
Episode one goes out, you know, they've got it to that.
7:27
So evil of the Daleks was still being produced while it was
7:30
being shown. Yeah, they were making these
7:34
episodes, like this really, isn't it?
7:38
They didn't, they didn't make evil of the Daleks polish it up,
7:41
and then broadcast it, they made episode 1 and then 2 weeks
7:44
later, or so, at this point, I think, I think there are only
7:47
two or three weeks ahead of this point.
7:49
They put it out and then they recorded episode 3 or 4.
7:53
Yeah, so it's a I think it's worth remembering as well.
7:57
There was just nothing else quite like this on TV.
7:59
There was nothing else where within the same, Or you're in
8:03
the present the past and the future.
8:07
You know, no wonder people flock to this.
8:10
Yeah, it's It's a waste superb, it's stood the test of time, you
8:17
know it's still being made. So the sad truth is is like the
8:22
only this only really exists in the memories of those people
8:26
that had the opportunity to watch it when it went out.
8:31
Yeah, I uh, I think the animation that we've got now, is
8:35
superb. And I am so grateful to the
8:37
people who recorded the audio, when this went out that we've
8:41
still got the soundtrack to all the episodes is amazing.
8:46
But, you know, you imagine nobody in 1967 watching this
8:50
would have imagined that. Even that we might be seeing a
8:53
tenth anniversary story, which he technically isn't.
8:57
I won't go into the details of that, but the three doctors is
9:00
not really a tenth anniversary. Nursery story.
9:02
But you know I mean let alone that we'd actually be gearing up
9:06
and getting excited for the 60th anniversary coming up and I
9:09
actually being a going concern at the BBC at the time.
9:13
Yeah, very few shows have that kind of longevity.
9:17
Jonathan you have with either the Daleks and it's astonishing.
9:21
It come comes at the end of a season, right?
9:23
Which started with William Hartnell and Ben and pulling and
9:27
he wills and Michael Christ. And now we've got battery
9:29
troughton and Fraser Hye ins and we've gone through, you know,
9:34
the introduction of the Cybermen, the Cybermen came back
9:37
is gone through pain and Polly leaving, you know, the Haslem
9:43
Aqua Terra back on contemporary for the faces was.
9:46
I've torn has happened in season 4 and yet with evil thoughts.
9:50
It almost feels like a season of Doctor Who with a season finale,
9:54
right? At the end.
9:56
Yeah. Yeah, it does.
9:58
So maybe they packed it in the no seasons in the 60s.
10:03
Thing is with television and with anything else, not just
10:07
television, you know, it doesn't have to be a masterpiece as long
10:11
as it's entertaining, and I think evil of the Daleks is
10:13
entertaining in Spades. It's only there are other
10:18
stories that are shorter than this which are less
10:20
entertaining. I'll for sure, we were talking
10:23
about underworld just earlier, you know, there are plenty of
10:27
shorter ones that I can watch evil of the Daleks in one
10:29
sitting. Easley ingested.
10:33
The the Dominate is only 5 episodes long, you know?
10:38
Yes and I love it and I can wait.
10:43
Well honestly we could wax lyrical about this all night but
10:46
we should probably watch episode 7 and see the final end of the
10:51
Daleks more importantly, we should remember that we actually
10:55
have to talk during this and not just sit and watch it because
10:57
yes, yes. At some of this animation in
11:00
this episode is amazingly good that the end sequences.
11:05
There's none of those little dab.
11:07
Hold up man. I went That whole what were
11:08
they? The Louis Marx darling.
11:17
Well, there anything Callison. Okay, briefly, I did consider
11:23
counting acid in the style of the saucer pilot in the Dalek
11:27
invasion of Earth. But that would have taken
11:28
forever. But my God, you started now 32
11:44
Okay, let's Go. Whoo, absolutely.
11:48
That's what you're gonna take. The Dalek Emperor at by.
11:51
This is a grave voice. Oh, it is a great booming.
11:57
Voice it is. It's great.
12:00
Yeah. I really love the voice of the
12:01
emperor in this. I don't know if you ever listen
12:03
to the big for this series, Dalek Empire.
12:06
I listened to the first one but the first series.
12:10
Yes and they brought in the Dalek Emperor in the last season
12:13
and honestly it's the same voice modulation.
12:16
It just sounds incredible of headphones in.
12:20
I'll have to keep an eye out for that thing because I haven't
12:22
heard that for a long time. Do you know what else you get?
12:27
At the end of the previous episode.
12:31
What else do you get for the very last time?
12:34
Da da, da, da dun, dun dada da da, dun dun.
12:46
Okay. Yeah, you will open these
12:50
terrifying. The experiment is wrecked while
12:55
about this, they've been talking about Max to ball, getting the
12:57
secret of metal into gold. And, you know, you think, oh,
13:01
it's all rubbish. The Daleks are going to do that.
13:03
Apparently they are. Yes, they are ruthless killing
13:07
machines of their word. Okay, apparently, so, Apparently
13:13
said is playing this recorder or flu, whatever it is.
13:17
Yeah, he is indeed, and this is the only scene in which the
13:21
doctor and Victoria actually have a conversation in this
13:24
whole story is true. But I have some lovely moments
13:27
in the next or even though they do.
13:30
But James HR asks, is this the shortest amount of time, the
13:34
doctor spends in the company of someone other than do do before
13:37
taking them on as a companion. And I think it's certainly up
13:42
there. Yeah, for sure.
13:44
That all also think I've got a cat climbing up my back.
13:48
Oh, but I do rather think he's sort of morally compelled to
13:57
take her along at the end. He's not going to leave her on
13:59
the on an alien planet. Well quite yeah, he doesn't have
14:03
much in the way of choice. But well, that was fun.
14:07
Victoria. See, I've you doing all right?
14:10
Yeah. Don't worry, once they finish
14:13
fighting things, will calm down a bit.
14:15
I'm kind of really got control of the TARDIS as he also say, he
14:19
could have just taken her back. Now, at this point, he doesn't
14:23
have control of the TARDIS. Jason, the pool player Gail,
14:27
she's utterly traumatized in the next couple of stories to the
14:31
point where she's actually baking to leave.
14:34
Yeah. The only companion, I think
14:36
besides Tegan in the classic series, who leaves because of
14:39
trauma. Basically.
14:41
Yeah, well, I'll take another understandable.
14:44
I am going to say because I know we've had a lot of very positive
14:47
things about this story. I don't think this is the best
14:51
introductory story for a companion.
14:54
I think she's mostly been a bit useless and a victim.
14:58
And she has a couple of moments in episode 6 and 7, but there
15:02
are way better examples of this sort of thing.
15:06
Yeah, there are, it's not a great introduction for a
15:09
companion. As you say, she's basically a
15:12
victim for the whole story, the doctor hasn't, this brief
15:15
conversation with her and then takes her on because the
15:18
alternative is leaving her on the middle of skaro in a civil
15:20
war. So what else are you going to
15:22
do? But you can see, for example,
15:25
the structuring of the faceless ones Sam Briggs is very much
15:28
more That's that's a companion, introduction story.
15:33
But Pauline Collins said no. So as we said earlier, Molly
15:39
Dawson in this story, that's a companion introduction of story,
15:41
you know, flirting away with Jamie up for the adventure.
15:46
Yeah. Yeah, but I mean she does have a
15:50
cup. Victoria does have a couple of
15:51
good moments in these in these episodes.
15:54
I like I like in episode 5 when she asked Jamie, why he risks
16:00
his life to save her and he just deflects the question and she
16:03
realizes, that's a silly question, really?
16:05
Because You know, as I said, well, actually I saw a picture
16:10
of you and fancied, you immediately So Jamie.
16:17
But I'd like the sweet scene she has with camel was well they're
16:20
they're quite gentle and quite nice and I love it when she goes
16:26
away. Yeah that's great.
16:29
And the bit where she's talking to the doctor when you know
16:32
she's He basically says, you know, they can threaten to kill
16:37
everybody in this room and I still won't do what they want
16:39
him to do. Because five live against the
16:41
whole planet isn't a choice and she realizes no, actually, it's
16:46
not and she kind of accepts that.
16:48
So that's good. Victoria is Badly served by a
16:54
couple of her later stories, especially the ice Warriors.
16:57
Nothing. She's terrible.
16:59
She's quite a suspect in the side menu.
17:02
No, she grabs a gun. She's pretty cool.
17:05
Yes. And I love her sake.
17:09
Take down a captain Hopper at the end of episode four.
17:12
It's all right. Captain, it's comforting to
17:14
know. We have your Superior strength
17:15
to call on. Should we need it?
17:19
You've been saving that line for someone and yeah.
17:23
Do you know? Here we go.
17:25
The Daleks have got there. Metal into gold and they are
17:30
they. So almost get the numbers right
17:31
on this as well as Max table reads off the numbers of the
17:36
atomic weight and specific gravity of iron and they're
17:39
about, right? So 55.8 for the atomic weight of
17:43
iron that's about right? Seven point eight for the
17:47
specific gravity or the density. That's about right as well.
17:52
But then they get to the specific gravity of goal.
17:54
No 19.2. Yes.
17:56
Yes, that's right. That's absolutely right.
17:59
Then the atomic weight, 69 point, what a though that's
18:03
nothing to do with gold whatsoever that's close.
18:08
This is the difference between you, okay.
18:11
Yeah, those numbers are accurate, sometimes they get the
18:17
science, right? I mean, I particularly enjoyed
18:19
the fact that in the sense, Lights William Hartnell
18:22
correctly, rattles off the melting points of iron iron and
18:25
molybdenum but apparently the effort of remembering those
18:28
numbers course in the fluffy line.
18:31
It can't get along right or is fabulous.
18:34
I do love Max Warrior when it's like go suddenly high-camp all
18:41
the way. I was going to say about the
18:45
Daleks rile, how they're portrayed in this.
18:48
Obviously the emperor's the big boss in charge.
18:52
Obviously this is long before davros came along, are we
18:54
completely rewrote the Dalek story?
18:58
So where does that fit in once Genesis he is Well, I think we
19:07
really wobbly timey. Wimey.
19:10
That's a good answer though. Having said that actually I I
19:14
will I will cite the discontinuity guide.
19:18
One of my one of my favorite Doctor, Who books ever.
19:22
I'm still got my copy from when I when I bought it in the noise
19:25
is terrible. Stay you know but it does have a
19:27
section called double entendre. So as you can imagine, I was
19:29
very keen, I'm sure I'm sure and I'm pretty sure that.
19:33
Look at the size of that thing. Dr. It's a big one is mentioned
19:36
in that in that volume for this entry but they have a they have
19:40
a couple of little essays in there about their speculations
19:44
and one of them is Dalek history and how it works.
19:48
And their idea is that Davros originally was killed by the
19:55
Daleks at the end of the events of Genesis, right?
19:59
The activated them. They took over, they killed him
20:02
and then we get the Dalek Empire that we see. in the future
20:07
stories but the doctors interference in Genesis caused a
20:11
brass to be a bit paranoid and upgrade his chair a bit so that
20:15
he could survive. And the survival of davros is
20:18
what keeps the Dalek Empire off balance for the rest of the
20:20
series, which is why we constantly have all those
20:22
factions and dab, Ross trying to take command and they are not
20:25
accepting it and things. Yeah.
20:27
So I think there's two separate timelines involved.
20:31
So Joy Doctor Who fans and with us.
20:35
Thank you travelling, through time.
20:37
Yeah, time is a mess. You know, the idea that you can
20:40
have a The idea that you can have a solid fixed timeline,
20:45
that makes perfect sense in our show will show for 60 years and
20:50
that makes a big point of time. Travel and has destroyed and
20:53
rebooted the universe at least. Once there's no point in
20:58
worrying about that. And you know, when people say oh
21:01
this, this breaks Cannon, it's like seriously the show's been
21:04
doing that since 1964, but the weird thing is, is the
21:07
discontinuity between other load, the emperor.
21:10
Dalek be in charge and davros. Being in charge here.
21:14
It doesn't bother me at all. And I'm not one of those people
21:18
that needs to fear story into a certain place or two for all to
21:22
make sense. I'm like, okay, so one point it
21:24
was the emperor and another point it was davros fair, dues?
21:28
Yep, that'll do me. I mean, Dad Ross was frozen for
21:32
90 years between the events of Destiny and Resurrection.
21:37
Plus God knows how long he was on the in the bunker on skaro
21:40
for before they dug him out indistinct Destiny.
21:42
So there's plenty of opportunities for those 70
21:44
years, that's what the emperor took is Charles, yeah, could be.
21:51
We will work together. It's all scary.
21:57
The doctors turned into a garlic.
22:00
Does he do an impression? Yeah, so we've had our legs
22:07
acting like humans. Now, we've got student acting
22:11
like the olives. It's totally bizarre, but it's
22:15
great. It is it's weird and wonderful.
22:20
Do you know another Doctor Who story that did exactly that.
22:25
Both those things dialect acting like humans and humans acting
22:28
like Daleks Not off the top of my head, but I'm sure once you
22:34
say I'm going to go, yeah, Daleks in Manhattan and
22:37
evolution of the Daleks, you have garlic that became human
22:41
and then you had in the second episode.
22:43
Those soldiers in the theater that were acting like Daleks.
22:47
Of course, I noticed this in the animation, I don't know if it
22:51
was actually a common from the Telly snaps if it was actually
22:54
in the set in the set as well. But one of the Dalek machines in
22:57
this is the space station from The Faceless ones. that thing
23:01
that he's working on now, on the on the screen or sad to say
23:05
below, And it wouldn't surprise me if that was actually used.
23:10
I know that one of the Cybermen spaceships from The Invasion
23:13
pops up. Repeatedly through the Pertwee
23:15
era as well as a prop in the sets.
23:18
I'll go talking about in the the actual live show.
23:22
Yeah I'm wondering if I can't remember from the Telly snaps
23:26
whether that's the case but I suspect it probably was.
23:28
It wouldn't surprise me. Yeah.
23:29
And bear in mind that was You know what, seven episodes ago,
23:35
six episodes ago, you know we yeah we haven't seen that but
23:38
you know, over a month at this point.
23:40
So Here's another bit. That's weird.
23:43
Where did the doctor get another capsule?
23:45
Why does he have four hits. Three of them were in The
23:48
Darlings. Well yeah.
23:49
That back up one you know just in case.
23:51
Yeah. Oh okay, lots of whispering with
24:00
Jamie. Yeah, bring everybody through
24:03
the door or oh yeah. This is because what it's like,
24:06
trust me or we urge our national Jamie does Jamie know you can
24:09
trust the doctor now. No he doesn't.
24:13
No. It's so weird because totally,
24:19
this is so different from those own Middle episode.
24:22
Something It is, it's almost a completely different stories.
24:29
I stopped. Hey, that was the day.
24:31
I started a nutshell that weird juxtaposition.
24:34
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's Jamie wondering,
24:41
how do we know we can trust him? Well, you don't, I love this bit
24:45
with the going in the emperor's, like, ticked off at.
24:47
What do you want? He looks great.
24:56
Yeah. Well because I don't take
25:00
doctors are convinced him to throw all these dialects through
25:02
an archway. Does it really?
25:05
Because I always I used to make a bit of a connection between
25:11
dialects and the emperor and the ball and the ball.
25:15
Queen that sort of that kind of so-so.
25:19
He's like yeah so it's like drones like bees and then like
25:23
the king or queen bee. Yeah.
25:26
It's that kind of thing. Isn't it with the emperor
25:28
sitting in the middle and I like the all the cables and
25:33
everything is kind of echoed in The Magician's Apprentice and
25:36
the Witch's familiar as well with Dave Ross sitting in the
25:38
thing with all those Jason Jason I was having a good time yet to
25:42
go and bring that story up tr02. The only story you know where
25:48
Dalek shit Saves the Day Yeah, I got there's a lot wrong.
25:55
It's not one of my favorites. There's some good bits in it but
25:58
overall, yeah, we've got a marvelous time by Julian bleach
26:02
in there. Oh he's brilliant he's
26:05
absolutely fabulous and you know, we are mass conversion of
26:08
dialects into humans. Yeah, I love this sort of
26:14
double-dealing, you know, we're gonna send the Dalek Factor
26:16
through time and the doctors like do I'm going to turn all
26:19
the Daleks into it to Cubans. I love you.
26:32
But yeah I love the human Daleks in this and the fight that ends
26:36
up and I love the fact that the animators did something which
26:40
will happen in a minute or two. But I was really surprised
26:44
everyone in the cinema went oh is it one little darling?
26:49
Because I don't up. There's one that gets blown up
26:52
but then it's Suppose looks at it and sort of pokes, the dead
26:58
casing a bit. Like what do you think of the,
27:04
the existing footage of the making of the end of this cause
27:08
that's really all will get to say of well, I assume.
27:13
Oh yeah. That was it a 8?
27:15
Mm, film footage that somebody took the last Dalek that was on
27:19
one of the DVDs. Yeah, I think that was, that was
27:23
great. And it looks very impressive
27:25
with all the explosions and the blown up dialects and all the
27:28
mess. Coming out but episode 7 is one.
27:32
I'm in two minds about, wanting it recovered because I know that
27:36
a lot of the battle sequences were done on a model with those
27:40
little toy Daleks. Yeah, yeah.
28:00
Well, if you want scale, there's a trade-off.
28:12
Oh yeah, look. Oh, you should have said, stop.
28:17
See mate. This is something that Dalek
28:20
stop doing as well. They scream when they get
28:23
killed, it's great in the 60s, they did that a lot and they
28:27
kind of gave up with that in later stories, which is a shame.
28:31
Really you say that bubbling goo?
28:33
Oh yeah, that's big close-up of it there.
28:35
Yeah. Yeah probably do a survey that
28:39
better on average got very right in remembrance of the, Daleks
28:42
are a big claw coming out and grabbing the doctors neck.
28:45
Yeah. So, can I ask you about this
28:53
climax morally? Look at the I know I've asked
28:57
many men that question, but basically the doctors sent those
29:02
three dollars into get murdered. He.
29:08
Yeah he's basically just triggered a civil war on skaro
29:12
but yeah, it's unfortunate that Elvis, he hasn't watched eyeborg
29:21
and I when they when they find out that separating Hue from the
29:24
collective made him turn into a person's, I don't use him as a
29:28
weapon anymore. Doctor is created some children
29:31
that enjoy playing games and he's like, no, you go and kill
29:33
all the other dialects and you'll all get blown up as well
29:38
as you. I think you actually see, do you
29:39
see one of the good dollars get killed?
29:42
Yeah, it just happened. A couple of them.
29:43
Get that shot. So yeah, how many I love the
29:48
black garlic with water Fields coat over its, I mean, how many
29:56
human dikes are there now though?
29:59
Oh, loads loads. He sent loads of them through
30:01
that, Archway. So there's four kids.
30:10
There's water-filled, he's dying.
30:13
I know that. I'm just like, please be alive.
30:15
I thought to be saddled with Victoria.
30:18
You know, you know, he's the main character because I think
30:21
he's the first person to get shot by a Dalek, who didn't
30:23
immediately die. He's got a long enough life left
30:26
in him. For a few last words.
30:30
Save Victoria take her with you, as you Embrace death in homes
30:34
and Diamond, when he goes alert alert, we're being invaded.
30:40
They just come in with our whole lives and I think, I think the
30:44
special effect misses him, but he falls over anyway.
30:48
It doesn't surprise me. He's a little more moving than
30:50
that. Oh my God.
30:53
I love the anime shots of all the Daleks and I love the the
30:58
emperor realizing the floor in his whole design.
31:03
He's stuck in the room going? No, no, don't fight in here.
31:05
Don't don't fight in here. No, go away.
31:10
Not here and when you actually go to you are not obeying me in
31:15
the corridor, right? I think this is one of those
31:21
times now where they've taken a few liberties with the amount of
31:24
dollars on offer. I think they probably are.
31:28
Yes, I mean, to remember that sequencing Barrel, the dollars
31:31
where we pull back to all the Daleks that were assembled.
31:34
Hmm. Yeah, lots of cardboard.
31:40
Oh my God, this is fabulous, animation.
31:43
The animation is great. And I mean, they've took they
31:47
taking liberties with the number of dialects.
31:49
But from that film footage that we do have, we know, they
31:52
haven't taken that many liberties with the destruction
31:54
of the emperor. Nice way that got blown up in
31:57
the panels were missing and all the circuitry inside it and the
32:00
smoke and the Flames. Oh it's gorgeous.
32:02
Gosh, this looks good. Did did the empress Dome have
32:07
Lies like that. Yeah.
32:14
I really genuinely feels like, like this is a definitive climax
32:20
for the Dalek story. Doesn't it right?
32:23
Definitely. It does feel like the end.
32:25
This is the really clumsy bit, though.
32:27
Every time I see it, I think this is, this could have been
32:30
better written with maximal. Just going to kill kill kill,
32:33
kill kill, kill kill, kill kill, kill kill and randomly throwing
32:37
camel off a cliff because basically the hawk has Noble
32:40
need of camel anymore. So we have to get rid of him.
32:43
I see this shit isn't it was a shit way to Sarah lose a great
32:47
character. It's terrible.
32:49
Yeah, absolutely terrible and you know, we camel was
32:54
introduced as a really physically strong individual And
33:00
yet he was defeated by maximal. Yeah, I think I think the
33:05
novelization or something gives it.
33:07
The idea that the Dalek factor is given him some kind of
33:10
superhuman strength. But really that was just oh
33:14
crap. We've got a character left over.
33:15
We can't actually take any further.
33:17
So we've just got to shove them off a cliff, literally believe
33:19
it's called the Eric's award approach.
33:25
I could have seen Cameron Victoria having a life in skaro,
33:28
you know, Setting up house. Yeah, but you know there was it
33:34
was just clumsy. Yeah, that is very clumsy.
33:39
And what does Max of all go down with the city?
33:42
Yeah, he goes back into it to fight because he's a Dalek now
33:46
so the Daleks will live and Rule forever.
33:51
Our score is the Garlic City being destroyed is gorgeous.
34:01
Again more so than the model shots?
34:04
Yeah, yeah. But you know Arthur before, if
34:07
you can make this more accessible to people watching
34:10
now and they can't watch the original.
34:12
Why wouldn't you do that? No, I absolutely agree.
34:17
You know, that would be, that be nothing to be gained by exactly
34:20
reproducing, the model shots, because frankly, the model
34:22
shots, they're okay. But the problem with any kind of
34:27
explosions and fire is, it doesn't scale properly.
34:31
So when it's on fire, it looks like a model on fire.
34:34
Yeah, that is a problem that dogs and Benny are classic
34:38
Doctor Who story it is. Absolutely.
34:41
Even when they blew up suit X spaceship in pyramids of Mars
34:46
and that's clearly a model shot with model planes.
34:49
Yes. Yeah is unfortunate.
34:52
My God. We came back.
34:54
Two more. There's Daleks shells Twisted.
34:57
There's sparks flying everywhere.
35:00
But there's a light coming back on again hard or what others are
35:04
but we don't know. Is it a good or a bad one?
35:08
Who knows? Is that question?
35:12
You know, I think we've been a little spoil in the future by
35:16
the the potential of the Dalek Civil War, obviously Revelation
35:21
and Remembrance and then later into the new series.
35:24
But this is such a novel idea at this point or is definitely?
35:28
Yeah, this is the first time. Daleks fighting Daleks it.
35:33
That's brilliant. It's still leaning into the
35:36
racial Purity as well as Nick because Summer Daleks and some
35:39
are Dalek Daleks and they hate each other.
35:43
Yeah. The racial Purity side isn't
35:45
really played up for this. Is it though, because it's the
35:47
human Daleks, but the biggest problem with them is that
35:50
they're questioning orders rather than their human eyes,
35:53
right? Yeah, it's not quite the same,
35:57
they do it more in the new series.
35:59
Do you remember when I think it's in Revolution of the Daleks
36:02
where they say, you're not pure Dalek and blast the shit out of
36:05
it. Oh yeah, that happens a lot.
36:10
Victory of the Daleks revolution of the Daleks.
36:12
Yeah, all of them. But yeah, so on Twitter, David
36:18
Gillespie Pratt asks with the toy Daleks use the bulk out.
36:21
The big battle scenes. Are we better off?
36:23
Not knowing how much they were used on screen I'm inclined to
36:29
think. Yes.
36:32
I want to see it though, but I want to but I do want to see it.
36:41
Probably. Yes, I imagine.
36:42
It's gonna be a bit of a disappointment.
36:45
I don't think. I think a lot of the story
36:47
isn't, but I think that b is I think, quite possibly.
36:51
But I think also, we have the benefit of knowing that that's
36:53
what was used. So I think the expectations will
36:56
be low to begin with. If we hadn't had those behind
37:01
the scenes shots and we didn't know that all those toy Daleks
37:03
were used. It might have been a bit of a
37:05
shock but Knowing it's coming, I think and Daniel rawnsley asks,
37:11
if this truly turned out to be the final end for the Daleks,
37:15
how would the show be different now?
37:16
Would it have survived? As long as it has?
37:19
Would it still be Doctor Who even I think it would I because
37:23
I think the show reinvented itself without the Daleks I
37:28
completely agree, especially it's it's hard to imagine now
37:34
especially for anyone who's coming at this from the new
37:36
series angle where they basically seem to have to appear
37:38
every season. But whatever reason I've seen
37:43
conflicting I've seen people have said that there's a
37:45
contractual obligation that the Daleks have to appear every
37:48
year. I've heard other people say
37:50
that. That's actually a myth.
37:52
It's not true at all. I don't know.
37:54
But either way the Daleks are and it's so often these days.
37:58
But if you think about the classic series that was the last
38:01
time we saw the Daleks until 1972.
38:03
That's five years. They don't appear in season 5 6,
38:07
7 or 8. We then get one a year for
38:11
purpley and then in season 12 then there's another five-year
38:15
Gap. Yeah.
38:19
And then off the destiny of the Daleks another five-year Gap
38:23
because we don't see them again until 1984.
38:25
And then we only get them once each for the the 80s doctors So
38:30
there's plenty of scope for Doctor Who without the Daleks,
38:34
so I think. Yeah, it could.
38:35
Well, have continued. It wouldn't be the same.
38:38
Now, the new series wouldn't be that involves about this a lot.
38:42
It's so often now. But, yeah.
38:46
I mean, the Daleks were big in the 60s.
38:49
I mean, they kept coming up every year and, of course, there
38:52
was Dalek Mania. So, in the expecting, you know,
38:54
in the media, there's always a doctor who in the Daleks, in the
38:56
movies, in the books and magazines in the comics,
38:59
Darlings, Darlings, Darlings Darlings.
39:01
But after this, we don't see them again for five years apart
39:04
from a brief mention in the war games.
39:07
But I think the answers for me for that question, is in the
39:12
classic series? No.
39:13
In the new series? Yes.
39:15
I don't think the first season critics and season would have
39:19
been as successful. Had they not use the dollies
39:23
because I think there was interest for Rose and then I
39:26
think there was a massive interest Spike for Dalek and
39:29
then I think the end of the season was really celebrated and
39:33
sort of the Daleks and the doctor became this sort of.
39:37
Anonymous thing, then that went together.
39:42
Yeah, I think that's fair. But I have to say, I've been
39:47
upset, I think I've said it in other places too.
39:49
I don't think the Daleks work in big numbers.
39:53
Not often I think occasionally but not often.
39:57
It's yeah, I mean the last time we saw them in Eve of the Daleks
40:03
the fact that they were only a few, I thought made the story
40:05
work. A lot better revolution of the
40:08
Daleks. Took it to extremes by having so
40:10
many of them. And it's like, oh this massive
40:14
massive, Dalek Army and then the whole threat is ended because
40:18
they all clutch the idiot. Born every single one of them
40:22
goes into that second Tardis. Not a single one goes, maybe
40:26
I'll just stay out on guard is a great visual but yeah, it's
40:33
fucking stupid mind you. It's just like dialects firing
40:36
at all those other dialects around Gallifrey and blowing.
40:39
The shit Outta gyro me. I don't buy that old wind Day of
40:42
the Doctor. so, you know, to end time I could sort of by it
40:48
accept it rather overlooks the scale of a planet.
40:52
The idea that they're all firing on the planet from opposite
40:54
sides and they can't see each other in the planet suddenly
40:56
disappears. Yeah.
40:58
Okay. It except every single one
41:01
though everyone. Some of them must have missed,
41:05
you know, I think the most interesting Daleks from the new
41:08
series are the Dalek indolic. It was brilliant.
41:12
Yes. Rusty the darling in into the I
41:15
like you are well, thought was really interesting and then the
41:17
single Dalek mutant in rev resolution.
41:22
Yeah. Yeah, I think they work much
41:27
better when there's just one or two of them.
41:29
I think they bring the best out of it even when you have whole
41:36
armies you have to kind of find increasingly improbable ways of
41:39
defeating. Yeah, loads of them at once.
41:43
Bigger is always better as we learned with the Scaris on what
41:50
I have. You have, we ticked off Twitter.
41:53
That's something that's everything from Twitter.
41:55
Yes, you managed to have a couple there for every single
41:58
episode. We've got quite a few responses.
42:01
Wow, I mean about Twitter. You know, you get, you may not
42:04
get many likes or, you know, replies on some of the stuff.
42:06
But when you put something out, sometimes you surprised, how
42:09
many people respond? Good response.
42:11
Yeah, people are very generous with their time on this.
42:13
Parker, I said, never sees her and I hope everyone's enjoyed
42:17
listening and enjoyed our answers.
42:20
Well, Three apiece start with you.
42:25
Oh yes. That would mean why do you
42:28
recommend evil of the Daleks? Why do I recommend evil of the
42:32
Daleks? Because It's so unique.
42:41
It has so much going for it. It's got the three different
42:44
time settings. It's got the Fantastic cast.
42:47
It's got the weird and wonderful plot it did.
42:50
There is nothing else like it. Hang on your listing, everything
42:54
here. So meekness is one thing.
42:58
One thing I recommend recommend it for okay, then my first one
43:04
is going to be so we discussing episode 3 and that is the
43:09
unusually interesting use of Jamie throughout, but if it's an
43:14
action hero as an opposition to, the doctor is very unusual.
43:19
And I think Frazier Hines responds really well too.
43:22
Material that he's given, and that's always best acting in the
43:26
role. Oh, absolutely.
43:28
Yeah. Well, now, that now that Ben and
43:30
polly have gone, and properly gone, as he had a bit of time in
43:35
the faceless ones, but then he got kidnapped and played
43:38
somebody else for a while now. He's properly carrying the
43:41
companion role basically in throughout this story because
43:44
Victoria isn't really a companion till the next story
43:48
and he rises to the challenge superbly and yeah it's some of
43:51
his greatest work, I think so. so, Yeah, definitely agree with
43:54
that one. So my second thing would be that
44:00
marvelous Cliffhanger at the end of episode 5 or Choice, human
44:05
Daleks playing a game and just the human dialects in general
44:09
because I think they're fabulous.
44:10
Are they man? And now over you know, I can't
44:12
think of another Cliffhanger like it.
44:15
No, I pass rare that most mostly things in dogs who are fairly
44:19
they're playing to a formula. Hmm.
44:21
Very much so. Okay.
44:23
Well, my second thing then is going to be the thing that I
44:27
have been denied but remains one of the strongest, things about
44:31
that, the story, and that's the score.
44:35
It feels to me. It feels almost like a movie
44:39
score is doing a lot of heavy lifting in some episodes.
44:44
Just love that. Riff on the Doctor Who theme.
44:46
I won't do it again, but I love it.
44:49
Yeah, that the music in this in this story is fantastic.
44:55
So my third one, a my final one would be the season finale - of
45:04
this cereal. It's you know, Doctor Who didn't
45:06
do season finales, I mean, You know they mean the last serial
45:12
of the various Seasons we've got is the reign of terror nothing
45:18
particularly finale is about that but I'm meddler apart from
45:22
the funny little Montage of faces in the stars that they did
45:25
at the end, there was nothing particularly special about that
45:27
nothing was building to those events.
45:32
The war machines. Not really as he neither.
45:37
Yeah, but not really because it just doesn't, it doesn't?
45:40
It's so out of step with the rest of series three.
45:44
We going back to contemporary Earth, rather than all the other
45:46
alien planets and times and things.
45:48
And then you get this, and this feels like a big dramatic end
45:53
to. I mean, this, I mean it could
45:56
almost I'm glad it wasn't, but it could almost be the end of
45:58
Doctor Who Yes, what is chalk and tastic way to finish the
46:03
series of going out on a high. If it's celebrate everything the
46:07
show can do, plus the Daleks, plus a big bang at the end.
46:11
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and, and
46:14
subsequent stories again, the subsequent Seasons, they don't
46:17
really have a finale as such. You know, I can only think of
46:21
one and I think you might disagree with me, I don't think
46:25
it works in execution, but I think it works in concept.
46:30
That the spiders know, the time monster.
46:34
But I think they going for something.
46:36
Yeah, Atlantean destroyed. You know, they had a massive
46:41
movie budget that they probably could pull off something
46:43
spectacular, you know. Ya know, I can I can get on
46:47
board with that as an idea. And I think planet of the
46:50
spiders is kind of supposed to be a, I mean planet.
46:53
The spiders and logopolis is supposed to be finales because
46:55
they're ending an era of the doctors and things.
46:59
But yeah, I don't think any classic.
47:03
Siri will any Classic series season ends on something that
47:07
feels as much like a season finale?
47:09
As this one, does a scan for Life.
47:11
Spectacle when a massive escalated threat, isn't it?
47:15
Just like the new series? Yeah.
47:18
Yeah. It's very, very much in that
47:19
kind of vain then my last thing is going to be kind of ties into
47:24
a little bit. It's one of yours but not that's
47:26
Dalek incongruity. If I said that properly and that
47:31
is putting Daleks in. Your positions.
47:35
So making them behave like human beings or children, putting them
47:40
in the manor house. Like all of that, I love all of
47:43
that. I don't think the series does it
47:47
enough? I think ultimately we lean on a
47:49
formula of having him in jungles and cities and spaceships and
47:53
things like that. And actually we could do with a
47:55
bit more of just plopping them down in unusual places.
48:00
Yeah, I agree. I can think the only the only
48:02
visual example of that. I can think of immediately in
48:05
the new series is when those three dialects enter, Harriet,
48:09
Jones is housed in the stolen earth.
48:12
Oh yeah. The three of them standing in
48:15
front of the fireplace and we're here a subtle way that to party,
48:21
you know and this commentary I mean, I think there is some
48:27
weird imagery in Revelation of the Daleks as well, you know,
48:34
where they're sort of that going down the catacombs, and things
48:36
like that. So, Smoky catacombs, or when
48:39
you've got them on the screen and the DJ's playing his music
48:42
and they're coming down the corridors.
48:45
Yeah, yeah. But that, again, that's such a
48:47
weird setting in itself that it kind of doesn't think it's
48:51
putting the Daleks in something familiar.
48:54
It's what makes it work. Yeah, and the only other, the
48:57
only other case I can think of off the top of my head where
49:00
that kind of thing really happened was, I can't believe it
49:02
took so long for this to happen, but it's in doomsday with the
49:08
Cyberman breaking down the door and the family home and then one
49:11
at the top of the stairs, how did it take that long to get the
49:15
Cybermen in a standard setting? I mean, you know the, but we
49:20
always said there was nothing more frightening than coming
49:22
home and finding a Yeti sitting on your loo in Tooting, Bec,
49:26
Which was a reference to how many times we bring the aliens
49:29
to Earth, but every time they did that pretty much, they would
49:32
have the aliens in the streets somewhere or in some kind of
49:37
research center that isn't the average home.
49:40
You know, we get to deal with the military, or the government
49:42
types, dealing with it or the secret base or something like
49:46
that. I base Under Siege, you know,
49:48
that kind of thing. We never got in the classic
49:50
series, we never got the aliens invading a home.
49:54
Not and as I am A massive oversee, our I was doing that
49:58
episode with Toby Halo and we were just celebrating the fact
50:01
that Rusty Davis know that a scared a fucking keeps because
50:04
some, you got the monsters banging on the door, you know.
50:08
Oh yeah. Ice just gold.
50:10
Just got well, look, we've discussed seven episodes of evil
50:15
of the. Daleks are normally.
50:17
Ask you where we're going next, but I already know where we're
50:20
going next. Because we determined this in
50:22
the first half. Do you remember?
50:26
You know, I've completely forgotten about it was a
50:29
two-week gap between episodes 1 and 3 and episodes four and
50:33
seven, don't know, I don't remember what we said in episode
50:35
one, two, three at all. And to be fair, there's probably
50:38
a two-week gap between when they listen to episode one on this as
50:41
well. We are going to be joining the
50:45
master in prison and potentially seeing a takeover by a load of
50:52
scaly Turtles. Oh my God, are we oh, it's
50:58
coming together? Yeah, it's brilliant.
51:07
It's one of my favorites. Love it.
51:09
I don't think you and I have talked her way before.
51:12
No, we haven't. Did you, did you meet your power
51:15
away? Once very briefly at the
51:19
convention, in 1993 for the hotel, make sure you save it for
51:23
the episodes. All right?
51:25
I'll save it. I'll show you wanna do, is go
51:29
one or two ways is either. He was the most Charming, man in
51:32
the world, or what a prick. I'm curious to see where you
51:37
land on that. But I just leave me to say thank
51:43
you very much for your time. You given the grief three to
51:47
four hours of your time on this commentary.
51:50
I hope we've done enough marketing for your own podcast.
51:53
We've talked about it a couple of times, but one more time
51:56
before we go. One more time, if you're
51:59
interested in, I hate to use the word vintage but I suppose it is
52:04
now cartoons that we used to watching our childhood do look
52:09
out for robots in your eyes. So podcast, where we're talking
52:14
about 80 these cartoons 90's cartoons, we've done mostly
52:18
Transformers, but we've also branched out into such wonderful
52:21
titles as Thundercats Battle of the planets Rainbow Brite.
52:27
And the samurai, man, the a samurai Pizza Cats.
52:31
I've never heard of it, but I've that's lodged in my head from
52:34
what you said here. Yeah, let me imagine what I say.
52:39
Yeah, that's all. That's, that's still going
52:41
strong. We just recorded last weekend.
52:42
We recorded the Transformers, the movie amazing country.
52:47
So, yeah, it's it's good fun. I'm enjoying it very much and I
52:52
hope that people come along and listen to it.
52:54
So give it a listen Jason. Thank you very much for your
52:58
time. It has been an absolute
53:00
pleasure. Thank you very much for having
53:02
me back again. Joe and I look forward to
53:04
visiting the master in prison with you at a future date
53:08
do-do-do-do.