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Understanding Domestic Violence · Miles Behind Miles Ahead

• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is meant to be about the journeys from life-taking setbacks to restoration.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: This joke takes on many forms and encompasses many different stories and topics, including addiction, abuse, another setback.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: But rather beginning up.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's the title.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: Miles Behind Miles Ahead.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: The music is lasting memories, best got homes.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to our show.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Today I have a really, really special guest.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: A person who um who I who I think is probably one of the best people I've ever met.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: She's um I used to work with her.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh she's decided to be of service, and um, and I admire her for that, but I admire her for a lot of things.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just one of the things.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, I'm gonna introduce her.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Her name is Mary Peacock, and um, Mary, uh, how are you today?
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm great, Stanford.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad to be here with you.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, Mary, before we go any further, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um I am um by education a chemical engineer.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Stanford, you know, we met at a chemical company many years ago.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um I have left the corporate world and gone into um more of the social work world.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: As a domestic violence survivor, I decided I wanted to give back and be part of the community um that helps other women.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I am now the crisis services director at um the Durham Crisis Response Center.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, thanks, Mary.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh and that's admirable of you.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um talk a little bit, just a little bit about that after your presentation.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Mary has a presentation that that I want to step out of the way.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh typically when I'm when I'm talking with guests, there's a lot of back and forward, but this is a very important presentation, and I think it um it needs uh I need to um step out of the way.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And when Mary's done, I have a couple of questions.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So uh without any further ado, I'm gonna turn it over to you, Mary.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Stanford, and thank you again for having me and um being willing to talk about domestic violence.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's an epidemic in our country um that impacts everyone, and we need men especially um, you know, leading the charge and in making a change in this country.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: I like to take a minute when I start talking about domestic violence, um, and just everybody who's listening to take a moment and think about what they think about.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So observe their own thoughts when they think about domestic violence, um, how it is portrayed in the media, um, what we think about it in the culture?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do you think about a movie you've seen, or a politician you've heard about, or music you listen to because it's in all of that deeply?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you you think about movies where it's been glamorized, or music where it's been fetishized?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um is it a normal part of our lives?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is it justified?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, I all of those things are true, and um it's one of one of the things that keeps it so prevalent because it is so very normalized and accepted, but we don't have to treat each other that way, and I don't think it is you know how humanity is supposed to be or how we will survive as a species best, right?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um so as we work through this discussion, I want to talk about domestic violence and really understand what it is, because a lot of people think of it as a man getting drunk and punching a woman.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that tends to be the go-to of what people think about it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a lot, it is that, but it's a lot more than that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's talk about, let's define it a little bit better, um, how the different ways it can present and why it continues.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also gonna bring in some other concepts that are very related that maybe people don't realize how related they are, and then finally just give some ideas of what to do if you suspect it in someone else's life, or if you are dealing with it in your life.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk a little bit first just about understanding it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, first of all, I want to make it clear that domestic violence happens in every group.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: There isn't a religion that doesn't have it, there isn't a race or a gender that doesn't do it.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um there it's in every socioeconomic class.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's more um if you are in a marginalized group, it can be you can be more targeted.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um because the more marginalized you are, the more susceptible you are to being controlled by other people.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Mary, could you define just a little bit what you mean by marginalized?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that are, you know, the United States, this isn't going to be a surprise to most people, but some people still don't get it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: The United States has a very clear caste system.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: We have the people on top, the people in the middle, and the people on the bottom.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: The people uh who have been historically um oppressed.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, black people have been historically oppressed, um, and they continue, the oppression continues today, and and unfortunately getting worse, right?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um people with who are not documented are historically oppressed, the oppression continues today.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, women of all races historically oppressed, the disabled um extremely vulnerable to being controlled because they have less options to fight back.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the LGBTQI community, um trans women are the most likely uh demographic group to be uh uh victims of domestic violence as um they have so few legal options.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the less secure you feel about going to a judge is probably a good way of looking at the more likely you are to get in a situation of domestic violence.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you just you know that marginalization, that place where the um where you have less equal standing.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um the ultimately domestic violence, and I'll talk more about this in a few minutes, is a um crime of control.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we think about domestic violence and oppression, um it is a form of oppression, and so that plays into you know what rights you have.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um the other thing I want to make it clear about domestic violence is a lot of people tend to separate the types of abuse, and that may help to understand your situation, but it doesn't make the difference people think it does in survivability, in getting out, and in the impact it does to us.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for example, um there's been a lot of academic study on what we call um failed femicide cases.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that is where in a domestic violence situation um a woman has experienced attempted murder and survived.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um thirty percent of failed femicides, the woman was not hit before.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in thirty percent of failed femicides, the abuser went from never hitting her to attempted murder in a single step.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so we we tend to rationalize that somehow emotional abuse or psychological abuse isn't that bad, um, but it's extremely dangerous and um has an impact, a long-term impact on your mental health as well.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then lastly, in understanding domestic violence, so it happens to everyone, all domestic violence is dangerous, and the other thing I want to point out is we talk about this as a women's issue, but we know it happens to everyone.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: So is it a woman's issue or is it an everyone issue?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and the answer to that is yes, it's an everyone issue because all genders, all demographics have people in them that want to control other people, and that is never a good thing.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when it comes to emotional abuse, it goes both ways.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are women who want to control their partners, there are men who want to control their partners, um, all of that.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say it's about 50-50.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when that escalates to violence, when it escalates to um fatal violence, 95% of the people are who are killed are women killed by men.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the answer to that question is yes, it's an everyone issue when it comes to relational dynamics, but when it comes to fatalities as a woman's and is specifically a genderized issue because it is women being killed and men killing.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that is an issue with our culture, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's not saying men are inherently evil.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's saying it's there's an issue with our culture.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk a little bit about what the pattern is and how domestic violence works in many different parts of our lives.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so we don't look at domestic violence in the field as physical abuse or emotional abuse.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: We look at domestic violence as one partner gaining power and control over someone else, over their intimate partner.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe they use technology, maybe they use money to control them, maybe they use physical abuse, maybe it's psychological, sexual, emotional.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, it is an attempt to leverage control.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is why I think you see things like so much isolation and um shame and fear, um frightening, coercing, threatening.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: These are all ways people control.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna take a step up and take a step back from this and say, where else do you see isolation, intimidation, humiliation as an attempt to control?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I think about what's going in our culture right now.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um our government, and I don't want to get too heavily into politics, but I see a lot of isolation, humiliation.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I am seeing, you know, we're all seeing what's happening with undocumented people.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: We're all seeing uh the lynchings going up, being ruled suicide.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is intimidation, this is threats, clear humiliation.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um when a state wants to control its citizens, they use intimidation, humiliation, frightening threats, coercion.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: When a church wants to control its, or a cult, I guess it's a better word.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: When a cult wants to control its people, they use coercion, isolation, manipulation.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: When a person wants to control their partner, they use the same tactics.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So think about those tactics.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Why does the everyone use them from an abusive partner to the state?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And think about that, those tactics work.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: They work.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Intimidation works, isolation works, and people behave in the way that they're expected to because they're afraid.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why you see such consistency throughout the globe on everything from domestic violence to authoritarian states and systemic oppression.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um so bringing it back down to the family level, um, one of the tools that we use in the field is called the power and control wheel.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the power and control wheel is um was studied only from a very specific gender um view, um, because it was developed in the 70s and 80s.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is really looked looking at what happens in the you know standard nuclear family of an abusive male partner to a woman's uh victim or survivor.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and basically, I'm gonna talk through a little bit of these um types of uh abuse.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you as I go through them, there are eight of them, I want you to think about both what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna start with economic abuse, um, controlling the money, um, sometimes giving someone an allowance, maybe making sure that allowance isn't quite enough.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Using coercion and threats, even to the point of threatening to kill yourself.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um using intimidation, smashing things, punching a hole in the wall.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, that intimidation is effective, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, emotional abuse, putting them down, calling them names, may again over time.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: We used to say six and stones won't break my bones, but words will never hurt me.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right, if you remember that childhood rhyme.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But words do hurt, and when they're from someone you think you can trust, you start believing them.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um using isolation, that is the number one.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: For me, that's the number one red flag because that's one that almost every abuser uses.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um minimizing, denying, and blaming.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, you're just being sensitive.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're you're just you, you know, you can't take you seriously.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You complain about everything.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um the child using children, if there are children in there.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then finally, um the the original power control says using male privilege, and I and I think that's true, um, making her you know, be submission submissive and all of that from especially from a um religious perspective.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think it's also using any privilege, you know.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You see it a lot also in um, you know, whether it's a racial privilege or a um, if you have a fully able-bodied person with a disabled person, they'll use that privilege.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um if it's um, you know, I've seen um in couples who are gay, one couple being the abuser being out and the victim being closeted and the abuser threatening threatening to tell their family.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you that type of privilege is pretty pretty strong.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons why when I talk about marginalized population, that that privilege is a form can be the the people who aren't in the marginalized population will use their privilege as a form of abuse.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did I not say in any of that?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I didn't mention was physical and sexual violence.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, I go back to abuse is tools used to control.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um an abuser will often use the easiest tool they can to control someone.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: If they can control them by words, they'll use words.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you if the um abused partner starts fighting back with words, they may then go to sexual and physical violence.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it the the point is to not lose control.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from the abuser perspective, it they're never gonna say, I want control of her.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to say things like She never shut ups.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: She should try to, you know, make the house more peaceful.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that is that control coming out.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So what do all of these tactics have in common?
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously control.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I love that song in um uh The Little Mermaid that Ursula sings when she's trying to get the little mermaid to go into land, go onto land, and all she wants is her voice, and you'll never even miss it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it is such a perfect example of abuse.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, when an abuser takes control, the victim or survivor loses autonomy, they lose their voice, they lose their agency.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's loss of voice, loss of agency, loss of autonomy is what the survivor suffers.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna give a couple examples, um, because I think they help put some of this into um clarify some of this.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I punched the wall, not you.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I would never hurt you.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you being so sensitive?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when you think about those words, there was minimizing, denying, and blaming.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're being sensitive.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't hurt you, I just punched the wall using intimidation because they punched the wall.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can see where any where sentences can be very minor words can can turn something from normal into painful and co and and controlling.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: In this situation, I think punching the wall is always, you know, obvious, but um I like this this one.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think you should quit your job and you can focus on the kids.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: We'll put all my salary into a shared account.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I have a lot of friends and family who are very happy, very safe, very secure, stay-at-home moms.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, why is this sentence abusive and not, you know, a family making it work and doing the best for their kids?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a very small phrasing differences.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I think you should.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And how different is it when someone says, have you ever thought about would you be interested in?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something you would like?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, sweetie, is that is it, have you ever wanted to be a stay-at-home mom?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because we if that's something you want, we we may be able to make it work.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: And see what that difference in agency, the difference in autonomy, the difference in security.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, my dad, my mom was a stay-at-home uh mom, and my dad was an amazing dad and an amazing husband.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things he always told her is, everything I have is yours, and everything you have is yours.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my dad innately understood the vulnerability of having no income, and a hundred percent dependent on him financially, and the hell of a lot of work she did in the house and to keep us safe and secure and fed, and the value, the financial value of that.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he he purposely countered the vulnerability that she was living in.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's a great example.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Another one I think if you ever left me, I couldn't continue to live.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: But that's a one we hear a lot.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, going back to the study about the failed femicides, um one of the red flags we look at is um threatening suicide by the abuser.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make it very, very, very clear.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: When people are depressed and they are threatening suicide, you need to take that seriously.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: So nothing that I'm saying is saying ignore suicide threats.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: And when an abuser threatens suicide, in reality, that's a murder threat.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that raises the red flag significantly that they are going to kill their partner.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't a manipulation.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that so separating the if a person is depressed, if they're not an abuser, take that seriously.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: If they're an abuser, also take it seriously, but it's pointing at the victim, not at the abuser.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we do?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do we do when we suspect someone is in this situation?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the first things that I encourage people to do is help the survivor go from being controlled to having agency to having autonomy.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: What that means is you can't go to them, shake their shoulders, and say, get the hell out of there.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you want to, you can't, because all you'll be doing is replicating in the survivor's mind that they're not capable of making their own decisions.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's what control does, right?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Control wears down that um self-confidence that I have agency, I have autonomy, I can make my own decisions.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so we um we as advocates, as friends, as family, when we see someone who's being abusive, if we go and try to force them to leave, we are replicating that belief system.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Granted, not, you know, not in an intentional way, but we're replicating that belief system that they're not capable of making their own decisions.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So instead, we need to start building up their confidence that they have agency and they have control.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: So be a friend to them, be there for them.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you're counteracting the isolation.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Isolation is one of the number one things, so be there for them as much as they can.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um counteract the emotional abuse by being encouraging, trustworthy, you can do this.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Counteract intimidation and threats by being a collaborative.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you're interested in going to the domestic violence center, I'll go with you.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to go alone.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if you're not, that's okay too.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: No pressure.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Counteract that denying and blaming, you know, blame, putting blame in the right place is really critical for no for a survivor to learn that they are not to blame for their partner's actions, they feel like they are to blame for their partner's actions, but everybody is in control of their own body, and abusers um like to blame their bad behavior on their partner that helps them control them, and so very often survivors have that belief system ingrained in them that they're responsible for this.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So continue to empower them.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not responsible for anybody's behavior but your own.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if you suspect it, you know, you can also get help um by calling the hotline, which is um www.thehotline.org or 1-800-799-7233.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's 1-800-799-7233.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think Stanford's gonna put it below.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but what's really nice about calling the National Hotline is they have advocates on the phone.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you don't have to be the survivor, you don't have to be the one who's being abused to call.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at Durham Crisis Response Center where I work, we get we're all very happy when um a friend or family calls us.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that gives us the opportunity to give friends and family tools to help them help the client, right?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: We can, you know, any domestic violence center is going to do the same thing that we do.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: We give you tools, we can help case manage.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: For an example, I had um a mom call in one time, very concerned about her daughter.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: The mom came in, we did safety planning, we worked on you know, tools she could give her daughter, we talked through how to recognize it, how to empower her daughter instead of just yell at her to leave.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, six months later, her daughter left.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: She got a protection order through our agency and um counseling and you know, free counseling, free support group through our agency.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's all because the mom was willing to come in without the daughter and get the tools she needed to help her.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the type of success stories we love seeing.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: So do not feel like you have to get what we call the primary victim to call first, as anybody who, if you know someone who's going through this that you love, we consider you a secondary victim, right?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: That means you are seeing someone you love being tortured.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we want to help.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So secondary victims are encouraged to call us, um, get the tools you need.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we can help you talk to the people you love.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um most DV centers provide full spectrum from protection orders to case management.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would say um Durham Crisis Response Center does carry have a lot for secondary survivors that not all centers do.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um we also have free counseling, um, and not all centers are have the finances to do that, so we're really thankful we can.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but a lot of centers do.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we have all lost money in the current amount administration.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to donate to your local domestic violence center, please do.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: But just a little flag.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, they run on grants and um from the Department of Justice, and um yeah, things are different uh in the past two years.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the center is there for you and the people you love.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um domestic violence isn't about a fight between a couple, domestic violence is about one person controlling another person, and that person loses agency.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're ever like, you know, I think they're both abusive.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: They may have a bad relationship, they may have a crap relationship, you may never want to be in a relationship with that way, but abuse doesn't go two ways because it's one person controlling another.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: So look for who's being isolated and who's being intimidated.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes the survivor may seem like the crazy one, because if you lived in torture, you would be a little crazy.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is crazy making.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't always just tell um without looking for things like isolation and intimidation.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, if you ever suspect, feel free to call an advocate at Durham Crisis or the National Um Hotline, and we'll be happy to help you.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Mary.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate that for a couple of reasons.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in a household where there was domestic violence and childhood abuse.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, um, as a child, I was severely affected by that and led over into my adult life.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I get it, and my mom was a victim, and she was in love with my life, so yeah.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um here's a question.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: I have a couple questions I want to ask.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh are there red flags, like when dating somebody, um, are there red flags to say this person could probably or possibly be an abuser?
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good question.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um there can be, but not always.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the hardest things to understand is, or not even under not even understand, but to accept.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably a better word.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: One of the hardest things to accept is that um survivors don't fall in love with abusers.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Survivors fall in love with this amazingly charming person who swept them off their feet.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of times there aren't red flags because abusers fake it and they lie well.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I remember people when I left the um my abusive marriage, people would ask me, Well, what were the red flags you missed?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that is a subtle way of victim blaming, and not out of maliciousness.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: We want to believe it wouldn't happen to us if we had enough tools.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: We want to believe that that can't happen to me, and I understand that.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I make suggestions, they're not foolproof.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Take time, set boundaries and see if those boundaries are consistently respected.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: If they are be if they erode even slowly, if they get pushed, that's probably your best bet.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so much about seeing someone when they're mad, because seeing someone when they're mad before they think they have you, they're gonna be fine.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, abusers will often not start abusing until after marriage, or not start abusing until after living it, leave living together, or not start abusing until after the first child was born.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there was one case where they didn't start abusing until after the second child was that I that I've you know done the case management on uh was born.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it can change and it can change over time.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: So your your best option is when you're dating someone, if you're interested in them, set some boundaries and observe.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are they are those boundaries being pushed?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um another question, what are some of the issues faced by women leaving?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um what are some of the obstacles that that they face when when leaving a relationship or an abusive relationship?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the first obstacle of leaving is danger.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: If they're scared to leave, there is a reason for that.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is the number one reason people don't leave is they are afraid to leave.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um seventy-five percent of the women who die leaving.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: So think about it in form of control.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: If the abuser wants control and the survivor is leaving, the abuser is in the greatest danger of losing control.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, they have nothing to lose.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why that's why that's that happens.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So having a good safety plan for leaving is really important.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, go go to a center, think through a safety plan, um leave when they're not home, or have people with you when you leave.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had people come to my house, men come to my house when I left, um, you know, so that there is witnesses, and they typically behave better with witnesses.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's probably um a lot of it.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then I had a lot of privilege in leaving.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I at the time had a very good income.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have children, I was financially independent, and it was terrifying to leave.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of women do not have this privilege, they are economically dependent.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: They may have, you know, two, three, four children.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they literally may have nowhere to go.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes families will ostracize someone who is being abused.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, we can't believe you married him.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't come, we told you not to, don't come asking us for help.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: And all that does is create a trap for the abused person.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So here they are, they have several kids, they are have been forced not to work, they have no income, no credit score, nothing.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that is that's our hardest cases.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, finding shelter space is hard.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: The more children you have, the harder it is.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there was a time where centers would have emergency funds for hotels.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't that all that funding's been cut.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um so.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, we do have shelters, and um you know, if someone calls looking for shelter space and we don't have any, we'll call the 90 other shelters in North Carolina looking for them to help them find a place.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely space, but it's not always in the city you want to be in.
• 44:49
  unknown: Gotcha.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, speaking of, I mean, when I heard heard you talking about um getting away, uh, I remember my mother, my father was at work, and uh, and she had planned it, planned it, and and we came home from school and everybody was headed to North Carolina.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: We were in Buffalo, everybody was headed to North Carolina.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: There was he had no idea till he got home from work, so yeah.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I she's a brave woman.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: There was some there was some distance, right?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um that was very wise.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: That was very, very wise, and you know, I also want to remind people too, because you had we had talked about this when we talked about this, and when we talked about doing the um podcast, and I didn't have it in my talk earlier, but I want to remind people about the cycle of abuse.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's a link I can also send you Stanford to put in the notes.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um because abuse isn't really a rage issue, it's not really an anger issue, it's a control issue, right?
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when when abuser gets angry and they're at church, they don't go hit the pastor, right?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um abuse is control related.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so part of that whole brainwashing experience of abuse is what we call the cycle of abuse.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: It starts out, everything's wonderful, and then tensions start rising, the abuser looks for things to blame on the victim, so that the victim will walk on eggshells and will accept the blame.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the abuser blows up and often blames the victim for the blow up, and then comes around and says, I'm sorry, and gives them flowers, but they've already been blamed.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a real head trip, right?
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then everything's really good for a little while, and the um and the abused person really starts believing that they are the reason for the abuse, that if they did everything just right, if they cooked the right meal, if they the kids were quiet and in bed, if they didn't bring up those things that annoy him, it wouldn't happen.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that cycle of abuse keeps the survivor always guessing, and that gives a lot of control over to the abuser.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's that's a tough, tough cycle.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I do remember that.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I when you're talking, like I see it in my childhood, I see that.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's another question.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because I think sometimes we blame survivors, like you shared.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, how often do victims get out and then return?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm sure that happens.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: It happened with my mother a few times before she finally decided to leave.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um how often does that happen and what what what is behind that?
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um is that a part of the process?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Can we uh because I I'm thinking maybe this time you go back, you won't get out.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: What do you how do you inform people when they leave?
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: To stay leave, stay left, stay gone.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, you touched on something that is really really hard that we deal with all the time.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: The average survivor leaves seven times before they stay gone.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Seven times.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and there's a lot behind that.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: The economic abuse kicks the butt of survivors.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um the you know, the financial dependency.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, our country does not have a good security net.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you know, sometimes are you going to let your children be homeless or are you gonna take a punch?
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: Most moms are not gonna let their children be homeless.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: So Sanford, when I said I had an amazing amount of privilege when I left, I'm not, don't minimize that because I know people in my job who actually had to make the choice between homeless, starving children and going back to the abuser because we had nowhere to put them, and they had no one else to go to.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, it is a horrible decision to have to make.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um boy, that makes me sad.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is it it's from an advocate's perspective, we call it um moral distress of knowing what needs to be done and but not having the resources to do it is a huge cause of burnout in the field.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's moral distress.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: The emphasis uh I think uh and and knowing you like I do, like I have, I I I can hear that, right?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're a good person and you care about people, and you and ever since I've known you almost over a decade ago, that's been my Mary.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's it's it's a lot.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: It is a lot.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's I also want to emphasize it's not about the advocates, right?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, they're not the ones having to make the choice, it sucks, and we suffer, but what the abused person suffers is so much.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and you know, add to that the children, right?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: Growing up in that environment.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are lifelong uh emotional consequences for that.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I speak to that from a first person perspective, right?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's been suicide rates are higher, school failures are higher, um, going into abusive situations are higher.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: All of that is um, you know, it's definitely considered an adverse childhood experience or an ace that um that we look at that gives children the you know the potential of you know which what which road their life is gonna take, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um my um my therapist, um, we we talk about this from time to time, like the parent uh that's your genre, your genre, gender, gender, um, is is that you grew up with most of your life is the is the person you're gonna mirror that that increases, not you're gonna absolutely mirror, but the chances are increased that you will mirror that person.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: So if your father was an abuser, chances are you're gonna be an abuser.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: Your mother was a survivor, chances are you're gonna walk into that kind of relationship.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so um um and and the and the and and speaking of the children, the tough part about that is that they are now they're set back, right?
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_02: They they have this um this growing up in that environment that they have to uh and sometimes overcome and sometimes don't.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and and you know, I just I wanted to talk about that because I think it's important.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um it absolutely is.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: What happens?
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: Is there is there um unless if a person say for example a person doesn't have coverage because they've left the house and um and they don't have the insurance coverage to to for the counseling.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: Does is that is that a place where where systematically we fail, or or is that a service that that is provided through nonprofits?
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of potential for services there.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um DCRC, um Durham Crisis specifically offers counseling to adult survivors.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um we don't have child-specific counselors.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um there's another partner organization we work with in Durham called Stand Up Speak Out, um, that offers um you know child group therapy for children and teenagers, which I think is an art therapy, which is an amazing thing.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um obviously a lot of your people, your listeners probably aren't in Durham, but you know, check with your local DV center and see what they offer.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if they are on um Medicaid, a lot of times you can get child counseling for this through Medicaid.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's important if you're comfortable to talk to your doctor, to let them know what you've been through, um, and get that help with um child counseling and adult counseling.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_02: What about the police?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Are they so when I was a kid, I went to the police station and I said, My father is beating me with an extension cord.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: He's taking my clothes off, beating me with an extension cord, and then pouring alcohol on me.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the and the officer said, Um, I remember this vividly, he said, Um, sometimes fathers have to do that to make sure that you behave.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this was in the 60s.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but what about the police today?
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: Are they um, in your experience, are they um better prepared to to address these kinds of things?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a complicated question.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um the police are trained in um what we call lap assessment.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know in Durham and most most state, most uh county and city police are are trained in lap assessment.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the lethality assessment when they get called to a domestic violence um situation.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: They should be doing a lap assessment.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: That all came around in the 80s and 90s and has really been brought out in the past 20 years.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um so they should be doing a lap assessment, which is 11 questions to like determine the chances of lethality.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the chances that this abuser is going to kill their partner.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, is that always done?
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is it always done correctly?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, do police have a depth of understanding of domestic violence that I wish they had?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Is it done sometimes?
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: And there are, you know, when I used to work our lap phone because the the police would do the assessment and then call the advocates in the county, the county advocates that they worked with, which was us at Durham Crisis.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so there were police officers that were amazing that really had a good understanding of what the lap test was for and how to use it.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were some that didn't.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um anything like what happened to you, you know, the police are required to call CPS nowadays.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, so there's that.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um there is stress in that as well.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um I can speak more to Durham than I can everywhere else.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I know Durham has a very high percentage of taking children away from the homes, and it is racially disparate.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there much more black children are taken away from the homes than white children, um, and they're less likely to get the children back.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that um those are statistics available on the internet um that you know make me cringe a little bit at the idea of calling CPS, depending on who I'm talking about.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you know, it's it like any state system, there are those within it that do a great job, and you know, as a black man, I think you understand more than most what I'm talking about.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I do.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of my existence for the last 68 years, so yeah, I do.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, Mary, we listen, we're out of time, and I just want to tell you, I want to thank you so, so much.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: It is um it's been an amazing session.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it is my hope and prayer that our uh that we are somehow helping someone um get to the other side of this issue, helping a survivor, or as one of my other guests calls it, a victor.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, to the other side of this this uh this abuse.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate it.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um and thank you so much.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Samford, for helping me on and being willing to hear and talk about um and even share your experience with such a heavy subject.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate y'all.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: You got it.
• 59:18
  unknown: Thank you.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're a good friend.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, absolutely.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: As we discussed earlier in the podcast, these are the numbers or the contact information for domestic violence situations.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: The first one is www.thehotline.org.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: You can also call 1-800-799-SAFE.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's 1-800-799-7233.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: And you can also text the word start to eight eight seven eight eight.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's text the word start to eight eight seven eight eight.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: Once again, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: We hope that this was helpful for someone, and we will see you next time on Miles Behind, Miles Ahead.