Latest / The Path Went Chilly / Bernd Goericke and Andrea Scherpf Pt. One

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Bernd Goericke and Andrea Scherpf Pt. One · The Path Went Chilly

0:30
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Pathway Chili.
0:32
Speaker 2: I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley.
0:36
Speaker 3: Let's dive right into this week's case.
0:39
Speaker 2: October sixth, nineteen eighty three, British Columbia, Canada, twenty seven
0:45
Speaker 2: year old Burned Erica and his twenty two year old fiance,
0:48
Speaker 2: Andrea Sharp are found shot to death next to a
0:51
Speaker 2: remote road. The couple hailed from West Germany and had
0:54
Speaker 2: been hitchhiking through Canada, but an unidentified man driving a
0:58
Speaker 2: pickup truck is he when using Andrea's travelers checks in
1:02
Speaker 2: the days following her death. Six years later, a suspect
1:06
Speaker 2: named Andy Rose is charged with the crime based on
1:08
Speaker 2: testimony from a former friend who claimed she heard him
1:11
Speaker 2: confess to the murders. After two trials and two overturned convictions,
1:16
Speaker 2: the charges against Andy are dropped when DNA testing excludes
1:20
Speaker 2: him as the perpetrator, but no one else is ever
1:23
Speaker 2: charged with killing Burned and Andrea.
1:26
Speaker 1: After that, the path went Chiley. So today we are
1:30
Speaker 1: going to be covering an unsolved cold case which led
1:32
Speaker 1: to a wrongful conviction. The nineteen eighty three murders of
1:35
Speaker 1: Burnt Gerica and Andrea Shirp. You know we love to
1:39
Speaker 1: cover wrongful conviction cases on a show because this is
1:42
Speaker 1: a topic that Ashley is very knowledgeable and passionate about.
1:45
Speaker 1: But this is the first time we have covered one
1:47
Speaker 1: of these stories from Jewels and I's home country of Canada.
1:50
Speaker 1: Our two victims were a West German couple named Burnt
1:53
Speaker 1: Gerica and Andrea Shirp, who have been making a lengthy
1:56
Speaker 1: two month trip through western Canada. They relied on hitch
2:00
Speaker 1: hiking as their primary mode of transportation, but unfortunately, while
2:03
Speaker 1: they were in British Columbia, it seemed like they hitch
2:06
Speaker 1: a ride with the wrong person, who fatally shot the
2:08
Speaker 1: couple and robbed them of all their personal possessions before
2:11
Speaker 1: dumping their bodies. It would not be until six years
2:14
Speaker 1: later when police finally charged a suspect named Danny Rose,
2:17
Speaker 1: a Newfoundland resident who had been living and working in
2:20
Speaker 1: British Columbia at the time of the murders. The problem
2:23
Speaker 1: was that the only evidence against Annie was the testimony
2:26
Speaker 1: of a woman who claimed that he showed up at
2:28
Speaker 1: her trailer one night while covered in blood and made
2:30
Speaker 1: a drunken confession to the murders. Even though there were
2:33
Speaker 1: a number of logistical issues which made it almost seem
2:36
Speaker 1: impossible that Andy could have committed this crime. He was
2:39
Speaker 1: found guilty by two separate juries at two separate trials.
2:43
Speaker 1: Andy was in the midst of going on trial for
2:45
Speaker 1: the third time in two thousand and one when the
2:48
Speaker 1: prosecution decided to drop the murder charges against him as
2:51
Speaker 1: DNA evidence from a pair of bloody genes found near
2:54
Speaker 1: the murder scene did not match him. Thus far, no
2:58
Speaker 1: one else has ever been charged with this crime. While
3:00
Speaker 1: the investigation did turn up a compelling alternate suspect who
3:04
Speaker 1: also allegedly confessed to the murders, the evidence does not
3:07
Speaker 1: really point towards him either. On this series of episodes,
3:11
Speaker 1: we're also going to be discussing a controversial police procedure
3:14
Speaker 1: known as the Mister Big technique, which was invented by
3:17
Speaker 1: the Royal Canadian Mountain Police and is actually banned in
3:20
Speaker 1: the United States, though it has played a role in
3:23
Speaker 1: some controversial convictions in Canada.
3:26
Speaker 3: Okay, I have two things I want to ask you about.
3:29
Speaker 3: First of all, I've heard of the Mister Big technique.
3:31
Speaker 3: Isn't it almost like the read techniques that's designed to
3:34
Speaker 3: elicit a confession from someone.
3:37
Speaker 1: It's very similar, but it involves undercover police officers, usually
3:41
Speaker 1: posing as criminals, and they try to use that as
3:43
Speaker 1: a means to get a confession out of a suspect
3:46
Speaker 1: by saying like, oh, we'll let you join our criminal
3:49
Speaker 1: gang if you tell us about all the murders you did.
3:52
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of controversy about it because you
3:54
Speaker 1: almost have to question the validity when they supposedly confess,
3:58
Speaker 1: because you're wondering, are they just tell the undercover officer
4:02
Speaker 1: what they want to hear by just bragging about a
4:04
Speaker 1: prime they did not commit, as.
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Speaker 2: You Americans call it entropment.
4:09
Speaker 3: Yes, sense, so basically where the read techniques are controversial,
4:15
Speaker 3: But it's a uniformed officer who's sitting in an interrogation room.
4:19
Speaker 3: This is a group of officers undercover who are making
4:23
Speaker 3: promises and offering something attractive to that person who doesn't
4:27
Speaker 3: know their law enforcement to solicit a confession.
4:30
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yes, Okay, well.
4:32
Speaker 3: Highly controversial, Okay, I can buy that. I'm also highly
4:36
Speaker 3: concerned about a couple of things that you've already told me.
4:39
Speaker 3: When we're talking about this woman who says he shows
4:42
Speaker 3: up bloody and confesses to a murder. You described her
4:47
Speaker 3: as a former friend. Do we later find out that
4:50
Speaker 3: that confession never took place, or that he actually did
4:52
Speaker 3: make a drunken confession.
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Speaker 1: He always denied making that confession, And of course it
4:57
Speaker 1: was very suspicious because she didn't actually come f forward
5:00
Speaker 1: herself to share this story. We're going to find out
5:02
Speaker 1: that it was shared kind of third hand by another
5:05
Speaker 1: friend of hers, who said that, by the way, she
5:06
Speaker 1: told me one time, someone came to her trailer, well
5:09
Speaker 1: bloody and confess to this double murder. So obviously there
5:12
Speaker 1: were a lot of credibility issues. And what was particularly
5:15
Speaker 1: problematic about this case is that this was literally the
5:18
Speaker 1: only evidence proving that Andy Rose was responsible, Yet somehow
5:22
Speaker 1: the juries found it convincing enough to convict him on
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Speaker 1: two separate occasions.
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Speaker 3: I'm really frustrated because I can put into my mind
5:31
Speaker 3: a million scenarios where this woman would have a reason
5:34
Speaker 3: to make Andy look bad. Let's say she had formerly
5:37
Speaker 3: been interested in him and he wasn't interested. Let's say
5:39
Speaker 3: they had had a fling and she wasn't happy with
5:41
Speaker 3: the way it turned out. Let's say that they were
5:43
Speaker 3: friends and he did something that made her mad. There's
5:45
Speaker 3: a lot of reasons why people would even let's say,
5:47
Speaker 3: well she was drinking and hanging out with friends, would
5:50
Speaker 3: throw someone else under the bus. And so that's really
5:53
Speaker 3: problematic that one he doesn't say like, yeah, I did it,
5:56
Speaker 3: or he doesn't confess to law enforcement, which in and
5:59
Speaker 3: of itself doesn't necessarily prove anything. Either, he has this person, who,
6:04
Speaker 3: like you said, third party, is saying that he's guilty
6:07
Speaker 3: and he did this and confessed to her. And then
6:10
Speaker 3: we also have some unidentified individual who was using Andrea's
6:15
Speaker 3: travelers checks in some pickup truck. Remember they were hitch hiking,
6:20
Speaker 3: so it makes a lot of sense that you would
6:21
Speaker 3: think maybe someone they ran into while hitchhiking, hurt them,
6:25
Speaker 3: took their belongings and started using their travelers checks. That's
6:29
Speaker 3: the person I want to know about. And somehow Andy
6:31
Speaker 3: gets tied into this just because some woman who could
6:34
Speaker 3: have been upset with him says he confessed to her
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Speaker 3: through a third party.
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Speaker 1: And when you look at the timeline, it seems impossible
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Speaker 1: that Andy could have been at these locations to use
6:45
Speaker 1: the travelers checks. It seems obvious it was somebody else.
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Speaker 1: So yeah, this is definitely one of the weakest cases
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Speaker 1: I've ever seen where someone went to trial and it
6:52
Speaker 1: still managed to secure a guilty verdict.
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Speaker 2: And they did they go and do their due diligence
6:59
Speaker 2: with regards to testing the veracity of her statement. I mean,
7:02
Speaker 2: we know polygraphs are controversial, but did they give her
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Speaker 2: a polygraph? Did they talk to other people in her
7:08
Speaker 2: life to see if she was indeed a credible witness?
7:10
Speaker 1: Do you know, Robin, Well, we're going to talk about that.
7:13
Speaker 1: They actually had to wear a wire and have a
7:15
Speaker 1: conversation a phone conversation with Andy years after the fact,
7:18
Speaker 1: but he never actually made any incriminating statements to back
7:21
Speaker 1: up her story that he confessed to this murder.
7:25
Speaker 2: So our story begins in my home province of British
7:28
Speaker 2: Columbia in nineteen eighty three. Our central figures our twenty
7:32
Speaker 2: seven year old Burned, Gerica and his twenty two year
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Speaker 2: old fiance, Andrea Shirp, who originally hail from Bulga, West Germany.
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Speaker 2: Following his graduation from university, Burned received an extended trip
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Speaker 2: to Canada as a gift, so he and Andrea decided
7:47
Speaker 2: that they would spend nearly two months traveling through the
7:50
Speaker 2: western portion of the country. A good chunk of this
7:53
Speaker 2: trip would involve camping and backpacking, and they planned to
7:56
Speaker 2: use hitchhiking as their primary mode of transportation. The couple
8:00
Speaker 2: first touched down in Winnipeg, Manitoba, on August eighteenth, before
8:04
Speaker 2: going to visit relatives in the municipality of Roblin for
8:08
Speaker 2: the next several weeks. They proceeded to hitchhike their way
8:11
Speaker 2: through Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia, and when they arrived
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Speaker 2: in the municipality of Port Hardy, they boarded a ferry
8:18
Speaker 2: which took them to the port city of Prince Rupert.
8:21
Speaker 2: From there, they proceeded to travel north and cross the
8:24
Speaker 2: border into Haines, Alaska, before crossing the border back into
8:27
Speaker 2: Canada and continuing up north to Whitehorse, the capital city
8:31
Speaker 2: in the Yukon Territory. At some point, Burned and Andrea
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Speaker 2: started heading back south into British Columbia, as they were
8:38
Speaker 2: scheduled to return back home by boarding a flight from
8:41
Speaker 2: Vancouver to Frankfurt, Germany, on October seventh. The last confirmed
8:45
Speaker 2: sighting of the couple took place on October third, as
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Speaker 2: they were seen hitchhiking in Dawson Creek, nearly twelve hundred
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Speaker 2: kilometers northeast of Vancouver, but unfortunately they would not make
8:57
Speaker 2: their flight. On October sixth a low resident discovered Burned
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Speaker 2: in Andrea's bodies in a field next to an isolated
9:04
Speaker 2: road about a half kilometer away from Highway ninety seven.
9:08
Speaker 2: Burned had been shot once in the back of the
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Speaker 2: head and once in the face, while Andrea received a
9:13
Speaker 2: fatal gunshot wound to the temple. The location was about
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Speaker 2: thirty two kilometers west of the district municipality of chetwind
9:21
Speaker 2: and it was estimated that the couple had been dead
9:23
Speaker 2: about three days before their bodies were discovered. The investigation
9:28
Speaker 2: would be headed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka
9:32
Speaker 2: the RCMP, and they initially could not even identify the
9:36
Speaker 2: two victims because their identification, including their passports and driver's licenses,
9:40
Speaker 2: were missing. In fact, all of the items which Burned
9:44
Speaker 2: and Andrea had been carrying, including their backpacks, clothing, camping equipment,
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Speaker 2: and a guitar Burned owned, were presumably stolen by the
9:52
Speaker 2: person who killed them, and they were never recovered, which
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Speaker 2: makes me.
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Speaker 3: Incredibly suspicious of the person who was using the cashier
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Speaker 3: checks or the checks, because they obviously are unidentified. They're
10:02
Speaker 3: driving this truck. I could easily see them pulling over
10:06
Speaker 3: and talking to this couple and saying, hey, I can
10:09
Speaker 3: give you a ride, no problem. These are young kids.
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Speaker 3: They're just floating from place to place. They were known
10:14
Speaker 3: to be hitch hiking, and so to me, it makes
10:17
Speaker 3: the most sense that that truck pulls over says that
10:20
Speaker 3: they can take these kids somewhere and then when they
10:24
Speaker 3: execute them is basically what happened. They steal all of
10:27
Speaker 3: their belongings and I'm sure scattered them along the way somewhere,
10:31
Speaker 3: but those checks were used. Those had to be on
10:34
Speaker 3: Andrea's persons before she was killed, because I can't imagine
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Speaker 3: someone robbing them and them not reporting that or not
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Speaker 3: saying anything and saying, oh, someone took my checks, but
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Speaker 3: that's okay, We're just going to keep on going. That
10:46
Speaker 3: would be a major problem. If you were hitch hiking
10:49
Speaker 3: someone robbed you and took your money and access to
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Speaker 3: your bank accounts, you would have said something. So that
10:55
Speaker 3: had to be tied into the person who killed them,
10:58
Speaker 3: because everything else was this scene as well. So it
11:01
Speaker 3: makes sense that whoever had those checks also killed this couple.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think that's what happened. That they were
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Speaker 1: picked up hitchhiking by the wrong person who proceeded to
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Speaker 1: kill them, and that person continued traveling south and using
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Speaker 1: Andrea's checks. And cases like this are just a time
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Speaker 1: capsule of a much different era where no one thought
11:19
Speaker 1: too much about the dangers of hitchhiking, and you hear
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Speaker 1: stories about people traveling to foreign countries and hitch hiking
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Speaker 1: the entire way, and unfortunately, cases like this are pretty
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Speaker 1: much the ultimate cautionary tales and show why people know
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Speaker 1: these days that hitch hiking should not be done and correctly.
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Speaker 2: If I'm wrong, Robin, bit, aren't some of these areas
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Speaker 2: in which they were traveling and where they were found
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Speaker 2: close to the Highway of Tears. Isn't it Highway ninety seven?
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Speaker 1: Uh? Let me just double check that I should know this. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: because you live in the area.
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Speaker 3: I almost think you're right.
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Speaker 1: I almost think you're right, Jewels, Oh, it's Highway sixteen.
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Speaker 2: Actually, is it Highway sixteen? Okay?
11:58
Speaker 1: But yeah, this was the era of the of the
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Speaker 1: Highway of Tears, where a lot of people were murdered
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Speaker 1: hitchhiking in British Columbia.
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Speaker 3: Okay, I have a very important question too. Is the
12:06
Speaker 3: Dawson's Creek? You mentioned the Dawson's Creek that I fell
12:09
Speaker 3: in love with in my teen TV show. No, okay,
12:13
Speaker 3: I just had to make sure. I just had to
12:15
Speaker 3: make sure.
12:16
Speaker 1: Go on this to be clear. This is Dawson Creek
12:20
Speaker 1: without an S on the end, so it's totally different.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't own it. Okay, that's fair.
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Speaker 1: Fair. A forensic pathologist who conducted postmortem examinations on Burnt
12:31
Speaker 1: and Andrea was unable to determine the exact make and
12:34
Speaker 1: model of the bullets and guns used during the murders,
12:37
Speaker 1: but she fell it was consistent with either a thirty
12:39
Speaker 1: eight caliber or three fifty seven magnum handgun. The pathologists
12:43
Speaker 1: also suspected that the victims might be European, which prompted
12:46
Speaker 1: the RCMP to contact Interpol, and they eventually learned about
12:50
Speaker 1: a missing West German couple who had not returned home
12:52
Speaker 1: as scheduled from a trip to Canada. A friend of theirs,
12:56
Speaker 1: who lived in Edmonton, Alberta, had to be brought to
12:58
Speaker 1: British Columbia. To view the body, and they were positively
13:01
Speaker 1: identified as Burnt and Andrea on October the sixteenth, ten
13:05
Speaker 1: days after they were found. The most promising piece of
13:08
Speaker 1: evidence was a pair of PSI thirty four genes, which
13:11
Speaker 1: were discovered inside a waste disposal bin located alongside Highway
13:15
Speaker 1: ninety seven, about one kilometer south of the murder scene.
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Speaker 1: The genes were heavily stained with blood spatter, particularly below
13:22
Speaker 1: the knees, and a forensic rologist determined that the blood
13:25
Speaker 1: was consistent with the two victims. There was also a
13:29
Speaker 1: bloodlike substance underneath Andrea's fingernails, which may have belonged to
13:32
Speaker 1: her killer. Investigators would also learn that on October the
13:36
Speaker 1: fourth and fifth American Express Travelers checks belonging to Andrea
13:40
Speaker 1: were used to purchase gasoline at no less than five
13:43
Speaker 1: service stations in Prince George Quinnell Mickley's Lake Lach Lajash
13:48
Speaker 1: and one hundred Mile House, which were all located hundreds
13:51
Speaker 1: of kilometers south of the murder scene. According to the
13:54
Speaker 1: various clerks at these stations, the individual who used these
13:57
Speaker 1: checks was a white male who appeared to be fed
14:00
Speaker 1: foot nine and approximately forty years old. And spoke with
14:03
Speaker 1: a slight American accent. He was also described as having straight,
14:07
Speaker 1: collar length, brown hair and slumped shoulders, and he was
14:10
Speaker 1: dressed in work clothes. The witnesses said that the man
14:13
Speaker 1: had a pleasant demeanor and did not do anything to
14:16
Speaker 1: arouse suspicion, which is why he agreed to accept travelers
14:19
Speaker 1: checks from him, and even though these checks had a
14:22
Speaker 1: woman's signature on them, the man was able to provide
14:25
Speaker 1: seemingly plausible stories to account for this. For instance, the
14:29
Speaker 1: clerk at the gas station in Mcleis's Lake said that
14:31
Speaker 1: the man told him he had bumped into a lady
14:33
Speaker 1: who ran out of gas up the road, so she
14:35
Speaker 1: gave him a signed ten dollars travelers check in order
14:38
Speaker 1: to fill up a gas can to bring back to her.
14:41
Speaker 1: The man was reportedly driving a green late nineteen sixties
14:44
Speaker 1: model pickup truck, which may have been a Chevrolet, but
14:47
Speaker 1: unfortunately none of the witnesses took down the license number.
14:50
Speaker 1: Even though a number of pickup truck owners from British
14:53
Speaker 1: Columbia were questioned by the RCMP, they were unable to
14:56
Speaker 1: find a match, and while two separate composite sketches were
14:59
Speaker 1: created and circulated for the mail driver. He could not
15:02
Speaker 1: be identified.
15:04
Speaker 3: I love how what threw them off was a quote
15:06
Speaker 3: lady's signature, because you know, I mean, most guys don't
15:10
Speaker 3: have a real pretty signature, but us women, I don't
15:13
Speaker 3: know that we have a distinct gendered signature. But Andrea
15:17
Speaker 3: is right at the top of the check as well.
15:19
Speaker 3: And so when he goes in and he's saying, hey,
15:22
Speaker 3: I have this traveler's check one A traveler's check is
15:25
Speaker 3: kind of an odd form of payment, maybe not so
15:28
Speaker 3: much back in the eighties, but you would think they'd
15:30
Speaker 3: scrutinize the check. It says Andrea at the top, and
15:34
Speaker 3: then he has to come up with these stories of hey,
15:37
Speaker 3: this woman gave me this check. She wants me to
15:39
Speaker 3: bring her car back. I'm just gassing it up for
15:42
Speaker 3: and like you said, because he seems pretty pleasant, which
15:45
Speaker 3: means he doesn't appear to be this kind of criminal
15:48
Speaker 3: mastermind or some gang leader or anything like that. It
15:51
Speaker 3: seems as though people just believe him and doesn't really
15:55
Speaker 3: register until it's called into question that these two kids
15:58
Speaker 3: died and Andrea happens to be one of them. So
16:01
Speaker 3: really interesting because it almost seems like this person so
16:04
Speaker 3: calm and cool and collected. Could they have done something
16:07
Speaker 3: like this before? Is it something that he just had
16:10
Speaker 3: enough time driving hundreds of miles to kind of be
16:12
Speaker 3: calm and regroup and think of stories he could tell
16:15
Speaker 3: to use her money? And do you think that was
16:17
Speaker 3: the main motivator behind the crime itself, just to get
16:20
Speaker 3: their stuff?
16:21
Speaker 1: Possibly? I mean, they never specified just how much money
16:25
Speaker 1: was the travelers checks were worked, because obviously we know
16:27
Speaker 1: he used one ten dollars one, which isn't a lot
16:30
Speaker 1: of money. As possible that he wasn't even planning to
16:33
Speaker 1: kill anyone, but maybe he made sexual advances on Andre
16:37
Speaker 1: or something and things escalated into violence. Or maybe he
16:41
Speaker 1: was just a serial killer who just loved to pick
16:43
Speaker 1: up random people and rob them while traveling through the area.
16:46
Speaker 1: Because they described him as having an American accent, So
16:49
Speaker 1: if he was from say, Washington State, and he went
16:52
Speaker 1: up to Canada to kill people, he might have just
16:54
Speaker 1: had the mentality, well, if I crossed the border and
16:56
Speaker 1: go back home, they'll never figure out that I was
16:58
Speaker 1: responsible for these crimes.
17:00
Speaker 2: I don't know, like I've got nothing to go on here,
17:02
Speaker 2: but I almost get a gut feeling that you're right, Ashley,
17:06
Speaker 2: that this is somebody who's done this before, and that
17:09
Speaker 2: they are like a chameleon, and that they can fit
17:12
Speaker 2: in in any scenario and come off seeming decent, so
17:16
Speaker 2: that people don't take down his license plate and they
17:18
Speaker 2: allow him to pay with these travelers checks that say
17:21
Speaker 2: Andrea sharp on them when he is clearly not an Andrea.
17:26
Speaker 2: And it almost feels like there's a possibility that the
17:29
Speaker 2: robbery element could just be a secondary motivation, like if
17:32
Speaker 2: your motivation is to murder, and then well, why wouldn't
17:36
Speaker 2: you then take advantage of the situation and take whatever
17:39
Speaker 2: belongings you could.
17:41
Speaker 3: That's very true. I mean you have this idea that
17:43
Speaker 3: one he could have been making sexual advances. One it
17:45
Speaker 3: could be a power control thing. He sees a couple,
17:48
Speaker 3: just like we know several killers have targeted couples, and
17:51
Speaker 3: what he does is he, let's say he kills the
17:53
Speaker 3: young man first and then kills the then kills Andrea.
17:58
Speaker 3: It makes sense and like you said, maybe just taking
18:00
Speaker 3: all our things as a way to erase their identity
18:03
Speaker 3: temporarily so he can get away further. Because if he's
18:06
Speaker 3: done it before, he knows you don't leave that kind
18:08
Speaker 3: of information. It makes the police very easily able to
18:11
Speaker 3: identify who the victims are and maybe gets them a
18:14
Speaker 3: jump start on the investigation. Oh question, do I have
18:18
Speaker 3: an American accent?
18:20
Speaker 2: Yes?
18:22
Speaker 1: I mean America is such a big country that I
18:25
Speaker 1: liked more specifics about which kind of region that your
18:28
Speaker 1: accent is from, because listening to your voice, I can
18:31
Speaker 1: tell you're American, but I wouldn't be able to guess
18:32
Speaker 1: where you're from.
18:34
Speaker 2: I love it, Jules, you said, yes, I hear American accent,
18:38
Speaker 2: but I also like, this will sound weird. When I
18:40
Speaker 2: hear Robin talk, I hear a Canadian accent that we
18:43
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have out here.
18:45
Speaker 3: So people think I'm from New York, which makes no
18:48
Speaker 3: sense because I'm from Florida and I've never been up
18:50
Speaker 3: in New York. But I don't have the typical Southern
18:52
Speaker 3: draw unless I've I don't know, unless I'm really tired
18:55
Speaker 3: or something. But I'm a Southern girl and people are
18:58
Speaker 3: always like, are you from New York? So we are
19:00
Speaker 3: very vastly different. Depending on what region you're from, people
19:03
Speaker 3: think they can identify where you're from.
19:05
Speaker 2: I get refined Southern from you. Yay.
19:08
Speaker 3: Thank you, God, bless you.
19:13
Speaker 2: Over the next several years, the RCMP collected around nine
19:16
Speaker 2: hundred tips, but none of them led the case any
19:19
Speaker 2: closer to a resolution. However, a major development took place
19:23
Speaker 2: in July of nineteen eighty nine, when the RCMP detachment
19:27
Speaker 2: in Gander, Newfoundland was contacted by Tom Martin, a drug
19:31
Speaker 2: dealer who acted as an informant for them. Martin claimed
19:35
Speaker 2: that months earlier, he'd been living in the town of
19:37
Speaker 2: Grand Falls, Windsor and sharing a house with a woman
19:40
Speaker 2: named Madonna Kelly. According to Martin, Madonna told him that
19:44
Speaker 2: she knew the identity of the person responsible for the
19:47
Speaker 2: murders of two German tourists in British Columbia. The RCMP
19:51
Speaker 2: eventually brought in Madonna for questioning, and she recounted this story,
19:56
Speaker 2: confirming that she'd been living in a rented trailer in Chetwyn,
19:59
Speaker 2: British Columbia, back in nineteen eighty three. At the time,
20:02
Speaker 2: Madonna was working at a sod farm and befriended another
20:06
Speaker 2: employee named Andy Rose. Like Madonna, Andy also hailed from
20:10
Speaker 2: Grand Falls, Windsor, Newfoundland, and was one of thirteen siblings
20:14
Speaker 2: in his family. Over the years. Andy had worked and
20:17
Speaker 2: lived in a number of different places, including Toronto, Edmonton,
20:22
Speaker 2: and Thompson, Manitoba, and had one failed marriage under his belt.
20:26
Speaker 2: Even though Andy was described as being a nice guy
20:29
Speaker 2: when he was sober, he did have issues with alcohol
20:32
Speaker 2: and had become something of a drifter who had a
20:34
Speaker 2: hard time holding down steady employment. After arriving in Chetwynd
20:38
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty three, Andy lived with one of his
20:41
Speaker 2: brothers for a month and moved into a motel once
20:44
Speaker 2: he got the job at the Sad Farm. According to Madonna,
20:47
Speaker 2: during the early morning hours of October fourth or fifth
20:50
Speaker 2: that year, Andy suddenly showed up on the doorstep of
20:53
Speaker 2: her trailer while he was intoxicated. Madonna described him as
20:57
Speaker 2: wearing blood stained jeans and having blood stained hands, and
21:01
Speaker 2: she also said he appeared to have scratches under his eyes.
21:05
Speaker 2: Andy then told Madonna that he had murdered two German
21:08
Speaker 2: people by blowing their heads off and leaving their bodies
21:11
Speaker 2: by the side of the road. The female victim had
21:13
Speaker 2: apparently fought back and caused scratches on Andy's face, which
21:17
Speaker 2: is why he wanted to borrow some makeup from Madonna
21:20
Speaker 2: in order to help him cover them up since there
21:23
Speaker 2: was a full moon that night. Madonna also described Andy
21:26
Speaker 2: as quote howling like a werewolf when he shared a story.
21:30
Speaker 2: She claimed that Andy threatened to kill her and her
21:32
Speaker 2: infant son if she ever told anyone about what he did,
21:36
Speaker 2: which is why she remained silent for nearly six years.
21:40
Speaker 2: Madonna then left Shetwynd and moved back to Newfoundland only
21:43
Speaker 2: weeks after this incident took place.
21:46
Speaker 3: Okay, let's look at his behavior. He seems like, like
21:49
Speaker 3: she talks about, he had an alcohol problem, he had
21:52
Speaker 3: become a drifter. It's kind of like he had this
21:55
Speaker 3: huge family, he started working on this farm and his
21:58
Speaker 3: life just started to kind of unravel.
22:00
Speaker 1: His mental health.
22:00
Speaker 3: Seems to be a little bit an end question here.
22:04
Speaker 3: And then you contrast that with the individual we know
22:07
Speaker 3: was caching these checks of Andrea's. That's someone who's calm,
22:11
Speaker 3: who's well put together, who arouses no suspicion, who can
22:16
Speaker 3: very calmly tell you stories about what he is doing
22:19
Speaker 3: and how he got these checks in his possession. Does
22:22
Speaker 3: not seem like the same person to me whatsoever.
22:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's what I'm thinking as well, And as we're
22:28
Speaker 1: going to talk about There is nothing to indicate that
22:30
Speaker 1: Andy ever traveled south during that time period, hundreds of
22:34
Speaker 1: kilometers to even use these travelers checks at these different locations.
22:37
Speaker 1: In fact, he was so poor that I'm not even
22:39
Speaker 1: sure he had access to a vehicle during that time period. So,
22:43
Speaker 1: I mean, I can understand investigating him after hearing this
22:46
Speaker 1: story about his so called confession, But when you look
22:50
Speaker 1: at like his movements and the timeline of when these
22:53
Speaker 1: murders took place, it just seems impossible that he could
22:56
Speaker 1: have just traveled one hundred kilometers south and then just
22:58
Speaker 1: suddenly returned act to chatwind and then moved on with
23:01
Speaker 1: his life.
23:04
Speaker 3: And think about too, if he's this person who's struggling,
23:06
Speaker 3: let's say, financially, who has an alcohol problem, who's a drifter,
23:10
Speaker 3: and these two kids are hitch hiking, don't you think
23:13
Speaker 3: there's some awareness when you're hitch hiking, Like if a
23:16
Speaker 3: really like I don't know, dishoveled individual pulls overs like
23:19
Speaker 3: get in the car, like you have the right to go, eh,
23:23
Speaker 3: we're okay, we're okay, we're gonna wait a little bit.
23:26
Speaker 3: You know, you don't have to get in the car
23:27
Speaker 3: with that person. So I also think there's a lot
23:30
Speaker 3: to say about who people choose to get in the
23:32
Speaker 3: car with. Even in the eighties, when you have someone
23:34
Speaker 3: who's charming, well put together, who is you know, kind
23:38
Speaker 3: and clean, and their car is clean, those kinds of
23:40
Speaker 3: things go a really long way to allow you to
23:43
Speaker 3: make assumptions of safety, Whereas if someone was just shoveled,
23:46
Speaker 3: let's say, had a really beat up car, those kinds
23:49
Speaker 3: of things, maybe you say I'm okay, no, thank you,
23:52
Speaker 3: especially when you're not just as you know, one individual,
23:55
Speaker 3: there's two of you, so two brains thinking. I would
23:59
Speaker 3: think that the person who pulls over and picks them up,
24:01
Speaker 3: both of these kids are looking at ho they were going, yep,
24:03
Speaker 3: let's get in the car with them.
24:05
Speaker 1: That totally makes sense because when you hear the description
24:08
Speaker 1: of the guy using the travelers checks, who seemed like
24:10
Speaker 1: a pleasant, charming guy, he sounds like an individual that
24:13
Speaker 1: the couple would have been comfortable climbing into a vehicle with. Well.
24:18
Speaker 1: Upon further investigation, it turned out that Andy had left
24:21
Speaker 1: Shedwyn around the same time Madonna did, and traveled to
24:24
Speaker 1: the town of Courtney to look for work before he
24:26
Speaker 1: relocated to Edmonton and got a job moving furniture for
24:29
Speaker 1: U Haul. By nineteen eighty nine, Andy was forty years
24:33
Speaker 1: old and finally achieved a bit of stability in his life,
24:36
Speaker 1: as he had spent the past three years living and
24:38
Speaker 1: working in Sun Dance, Manitoba. In fact, on October the
24:42
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, while the RCMP were building a case against him,
24:45
Speaker 1: Andy's common law wife gave birth to their first son.
24:49
Speaker 1: Even though Andy had once been arrested for public intoxication
24:52
Speaker 1: and spent the night in a drunk tank, he had
24:54
Speaker 1: no serious criminal record or history of violence, but the
24:57
Speaker 1: RCMP still felt he was worth pursuing as suspect. On
25:01
Speaker 1: September seventh, just ten days after Andy's child was born,
25:05
Speaker 1: the RCNP requested that Madonna phone him and Sun Dance
25:08
Speaker 1: while they secretly recorded the conversation. Their call lasted for
25:12
Speaker 1: about an hour, but when Madonna brought up Andy's alleged
25:15
Speaker 1: murder Confashion from nineteen eighty three, he completely denied that
25:19
Speaker 1: the incident occurred or that he had ever killed anybody.
25:22
Speaker 1: During the call, Andy did provide a potential alternate explanation
25:26
Speaker 1: for Madonna's story, as he acknowledged getting into a bar
25:29
Speaker 1: fight in Chetwind during that time period in which he
25:31
Speaker 1: was punched in the nose and wound up bleeding onto
25:34
Speaker 1: his own clothing. Andy recalled there being a full moon
25:37
Speaker 1: on that particular night, so if he had shown up
25:40
Speaker 1: to Madonna's trailer after the fight, perhaps this was the
25:43
Speaker 1: incident she recalled. And he also maintained that he did
25:47
Speaker 1: not own a gun or a car while he was
25:49
Speaker 1: living in Chetwind and would not have had the means
25:51
Speaker 1: to acquire them. He told Madonna, quote, I couldn't even
25:55
Speaker 1: buy my own breakfast. I drank every cent I had
25:58
Speaker 1: I end quote. Regardless, even though Andy did not make
26:01
Speaker 1: a confession or reveal anything incriminating during the recorded phone call,
26:05
Speaker 1: the RCNP still believe that Madonna's story was strong enough
26:08
Speaker 1: evidence to charge it with Burned and Andrea's murders. Andy
26:12
Speaker 1: was quickly arrested in sun Dance and eventually extradited into
26:15
Speaker 1: British Columbia to stand trial for the crime.
26:19
Speaker 3: Let's say he actually had confessed to exactly what Madonna said.
26:23
Speaker 3: He was such an inebriated individual at the time, and
26:26
Speaker 3: he's even saying, Man, I'm drunk all the time, every
26:29
Speaker 3: dime I have goes to drinking. He wasn't going to
26:32
Speaker 3: be sober enough to go hundreds of miles to pick
26:35
Speaker 3: them up, to go cash these checks, those kinds of things.
26:39
Speaker 3: He says he didn't have a car, but if he did,
26:41
Speaker 3: I highly doubt that someone who's struggling that hard with
26:44
Speaker 3: an addiction that they would prefer to buy beer or
26:48
Speaker 3: booze over let's say, shelter car, those kinds of things,
26:53
Speaker 3: holding down their job, having stability with their family, that
26:56
Speaker 3: alcohol was that important to him. I just don't see
26:59
Speaker 3: him being able to be one the person who presents
27:02
Speaker 3: as a safe driver and someone who is able to
27:05
Speaker 3: concoct these stories and go hundreds of miles casting these checks.
27:08
Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense. I would more likely, as a
27:11
Speaker 3: police believe that someone who's struggling with addiction like this
27:15
Speaker 3: would tell a fabricated story how at the moon and
27:19
Speaker 3: be in some drunken stupor where he's reiterating some news
27:22
Speaker 3: story he saw in the newspaper or on the news.
27:26
Speaker 3: So it's perplexing to me that her telling this story
27:30
Speaker 3: and not even being able to corroborate it on these
27:32
Speaker 3: recordings that he has with Madonna, they went forward and
27:35
Speaker 3: charged him anyway. It doesn't make sense. There's no evidence
27:39
Speaker 3: to match it, and it actually goes against what we
27:42
Speaker 3: think we know about this individual who was so calm
27:45
Speaker 3: and collected, so well put together. It is not someone
27:48
Speaker 3: who's struggling with alcohol addiction.
27:51
Speaker 2: There's an incongruity there, for sure. If it was a
27:54
Speaker 2: crime that she was talking about and it was like
27:56
Speaker 2: a smash and grab or a home invasion or something
27:59
Speaker 2: that would involve just him quickly getting money to feed
28:02
Speaker 2: that addiction, then that would make sense. But this seems
28:05
Speaker 2: to be like well thought out and like you said,
28:07
Speaker 2: he didn't have access to a vehicle, or he didn't
28:09
Speaker 2: own a vehicle. It just doesn't seem to be in
28:12
Speaker 2: line with the person that's described. Andy's trial would take
28:16
Speaker 2: place at British Columbia Supreme Court in Prince George in
28:20
Speaker 2: March of nineteen ninety one, and his defense team would
28:23
Speaker 2: attempt to poke holes in the Crown's case against him. Obviously,
28:27
Speaker 2: one of the biggest issues was that, in the days
28:29
Speaker 2: following the murders, Andrea's travelers checks were used at various
28:33
Speaker 2: gas stations located hundreds of kilometers south of chetwind The
28:38
Speaker 2: composite sketches of the man seen using the travelers checks
28:41
Speaker 2: did not have much of a resemblance to Andy, and
28:44
Speaker 2: employment record showed that he'd worked an eight hour shift
28:47
Speaker 2: at the sod farm in chetwind every single day between
28:50
Speaker 2: October third and October sixteenth, nineteen eighty three. And like
28:55
Speaker 2: we just mentioned, Andy did not even own a vehicle
28:58
Speaker 2: during that time period, so how would he have even
29:01
Speaker 2: driven to all of those gas stations. There was also
29:04
Speaker 2: no physical evidence linking Andy to the murders, and even
29:07
Speaker 2: though he did wear size thirty four Janes back in
29:09
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, there was nothing to conclusively prove that
29:13
Speaker 2: the blood stain thirty four genes found in the trash
29:16
Speaker 2: bin near the murder scene actually belonged to him. While
29:19
Speaker 2: Madonna had described Andy as wearing blood stained jeans while
29:22
Speaker 2: confessing to the murders outside her trailer, the trash bin
29:26
Speaker 2: was located only about one kilometer south of the crime scene,
29:29
Speaker 2: so there was some question about why Andy would have
29:32
Speaker 2: traveled over thirty kilometers to Chetwynd while wearing the bloody
29:36
Speaker 2: jeans and then make another thirty kilometer trip back to
29:39
Speaker 2: that particular trash bin in order to get rid of them.
29:42
Speaker 2: Another potential hole in Madonna's story was her description of
29:46
Speaker 2: Andy howling like a werewolf at the full moon. His
29:49
Speaker 2: records showed that there was actually a crescent moon in
29:51
Speaker 2: the night sky during early October of nineteen eighty three,
29:55
Speaker 2: and the full moon did not appear until two weeks
29:58
Speaker 2: after the murders. Regardless, even though Andy took the witness
30:02
Speaker 2: stand to testify in his own defense, the jury still
30:06
Speaker 2: found Madonna's testimony to be more credible. On March eighth,
30:10
Speaker 2: they wound up finding Andy guilty on two counts of
30:12
Speaker 2: second degree murder, and he received a sentence of life
30:16
Speaker 2: imprisonment with no possibility of parole for fifteen years.
30:21
Speaker 3: Well, let's go to the pants real quick. When you
30:23
Speaker 3: look at Min's jeans, thirty two thirty fours, though that
30:27
Speaker 3: waste size is the most common waist size rebel wears
30:30
Speaker 3: of thirty four. So I mean, when you look at
30:33
Speaker 3: these thirty fours were found on evidence that could have
30:38
Speaker 3: been a million people's pair of jeans. So unless you
30:42
Speaker 3: had said, hey, it had you know, some card that
30:44
Speaker 3: linked it back to him. There was a wallet found
30:46
Speaker 3: in it, there was initials, you know, sewn into the
30:50
Speaker 3: waistband or something that didn't happen. It's just a size
30:53
Speaker 3: thirty four pair of jeans, and he says he didn't
30:55
Speaker 3: even he did wear that size, but he didn't even
30:59
Speaker 3: have a car to be in that location in the
31:01
Speaker 3: first place. So when you think about him being put
31:04
Speaker 3: up on the stand and in Madonna, clearly Madonna seems
31:08
Speaker 3: to be stable when she's presenting, You've got to remember
31:11
Speaker 3: this is a man who's had mental health issues with
31:13
Speaker 3: addiction and those sorts. He's been a drifter. He clearly
31:16
Speaker 3: has had a really difficult life. I wonder how intelligent
31:21
Speaker 3: he comes off to the jury versus how Madonna comes off, because, genuinely,
31:26
Speaker 3: whether the facts are congruent or not, when you have
31:28
Speaker 3: two different personalities up on the stand, someone who seems
31:31
Speaker 3: articulate and stable and grounded, even if they're not saying
31:36
Speaker 3: facts that make sense, they're going to be believed over
31:39
Speaker 3: someone who's sputtering off these truths but don't seem to
31:43
Speaker 3: be a very reliable human being just in general. So
31:46
Speaker 3: I think he was set up to fail by testifying
31:48
Speaker 3: in the first place.
31:49
Speaker 1: I mean, I know Andy had some previous mental health
31:52
Speaker 1: and alcohol issues back in the early eighties, but he
31:55
Speaker 1: seemed to be in a good place by the time
31:56
Speaker 1: he was arrested, so I'm not entirely sure he came
31:59
Speaker 1: across that badly on the witness stand. But I haven't
32:02
Speaker 1: seen footage of the original trial, but I would be
32:04
Speaker 1: curious to see Madonna's testimony because all I can think
32:07
Speaker 1: was it must have been pretty damn convincing, because there
32:09
Speaker 1: are just so many holes in the prosecution's case, But
32:13
Speaker 1: on Madonna's testimony alone, the jury just seemed to think
32:16
Speaker 1: that proved Andy's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and that's
32:19
Speaker 1: why they decided to find him guilty. But I guess
32:22
Speaker 1: we just got to put ourselves in the shoes of
32:25
Speaker 1: a potential juror back in nineteen ninety one, when issues
32:28
Speaker 1: with wrongful convictions were just not general knowledge with the public,
32:31
Speaker 1: So they probably just had the mindset, well, why would
32:34
Speaker 1: this witness get on the stand and lie about this story.
32:36
Speaker 1: She must be telling the truth. Therefore, Andy is guilty.
32:41
Speaker 3: Question for you guys, when you look at America's justice system,
32:44
Speaker 3: it's you know, you're innocent until proven guilty beyond a
32:48
Speaker 3: reasonable doubt. You need to be ninety nine point nine
32:50
Speaker 3: nine nine percent sure that this is the true account.
32:53
Speaker 1: All of that's the same in Canada pretty much. Yeah,
32:56
Speaker 1: Like they still have the same mindset that you should
32:59
Speaker 1: not find someone guilty unless you feel that they have
33:01
Speaker 1: proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt. I mean, there
33:03
Speaker 1: are some differences between the Canadian and American justice systems,
33:08
Speaker 1: but the basic essentials of a trial are pretty much
33:10
Speaker 1: the same.
33:11
Speaker 3: Okay, so he would have had many rights himself as well.
33:16
Speaker 1: Andy was sent to the Matsque Institution in Abbotsford, but
33:19
Speaker 1: his defense team immediately appealed his conviction. Just under two
33:23
Speaker 1: years later, on November twelfth, nineteen ninety two, the British
33:27
Speaker 1: Columbia Court of Appeal ruled that Andy was entitled to
33:30
Speaker 1: a new trial as they believe that the original trial
33:32
Speaker 1: judge had given inadequate instructions to the jury about the
33:35
Speaker 1: burden of proof and reasonable doubt. During the ruling, the
33:39
Speaker 1: three justices wrote, quote, experience tells us that while very
33:43
Speaker 1: few innocent persons are convicted, it does happen end quote.
33:47
Speaker 1: Andy would return to British Columbia Supreme Court in Prince
33:50
Speaker 1: George for his second trial in April of nineteen ninety four,
33:53
Speaker 1: and once again the only real evidence against him was
33:56
Speaker 1: the testimony of Adonna Kelly, who continued to maintain that
34:00
Speaker 1: Andy had confessed to her about his involvement in the murders.
34:03
Speaker 1: But even though the defense attempted to poke hole as
34:05
Speaker 1: a Madonna's story, the jury still seemed to think that
34:08
Speaker 1: she was a believable eyewitness. So on April the twenty sixth,
34:12
Speaker 1: Andy was found guilty on two counts of second degree
34:14
Speaker 1: murder for the second time. When sensing took place, Andy
34:18
Speaker 1: told the court quote, I didn't kill those people. I
34:21
Speaker 1: don't know what else I can say. There is no
34:23
Speaker 1: evidence I didn't kill them end quote. He received the
34:27
Speaker 1: same sentence of life imprisonment with no possibility parole for
34:30
Speaker 1: fifteen years, and was subsequently sent back to prison.
34:34
Speaker 3: I don't get it. In nineteen ninety one, and in
34:37
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, we definitely didn't have the technology we
34:40
Speaker 3: have with DNA. Remember Andrea had had blood evidence underneath
34:44
Speaker 3: her fingernails. Supposedly he was scratched. If we had that technology,
34:49
Speaker 3: we could go back and say, hey, look had this happened.
34:52
Speaker 3: But at the time, Andy saying I don't know what
34:55
Speaker 3: else to do. How do you truly prove your innocent?
34:59
Speaker 3: Your job is to prove that I'm guilty, you didn't
35:02
Speaker 3: do that, and it's almost impossible. I've told you I
35:04
Speaker 3: didn't have a car, I didn't have any money at
35:06
Speaker 3: the time. I sure wasn't driving hundreds of miles. I
35:09
Speaker 3: didn't say that I wasn't at Madonna's house confessing to
35:13
Speaker 3: that I was in a bar fight, which it would
35:16
Speaker 3: explain scratches and blood on me. But I don't know
35:19
Speaker 3: how else to prove I'm innocent. I've thought about that
35:22
Speaker 3: a lot before. If I had to prove my innocence,
35:26
Speaker 3: you know, you can prove I have receipts for this,
35:29
Speaker 3: I was here, But there's a lot of ways that
35:31
Speaker 3: people look the other way and say, like, I just
35:33
Speaker 3: don't buy it. I believe you're guilty. So it's very difficult.
35:37
Speaker 3: Andy found himself in an almost impossible situation of saying,
35:40
Speaker 3: prove that I did it. You didn't prove it, and
35:42
Speaker 3: yet the jury said, yes, they did.
35:46
Speaker 1: Andy was just unlucky because, as we're going to talk about,
35:49
Speaker 1: DNA testing does become a part of this case within
35:51
Speaker 1: the next few years. So I think that if Andy's
35:54
Speaker 1: trial had taken place just a couple years afterwards, he
35:57
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have been convicted because they would have been
35:59
Speaker 1: able to use DNA evidence to pretty much prove beyond
36:02
Speaker 1: a shadow of a doubt to a jury that he
36:03
Speaker 1: could not have committed this crime.
36:06
Speaker 2: I'm curious, Robin, do you know in Canada if we
36:09
Speaker 2: have with the equivalent of in America's a bench trial.
36:14
Speaker 1: Let me just look that up. I seem to recall
36:16
Speaker 1: some examples of this happening in Canada, but I just
36:19
Speaker 1: want to double shu murder trial.
36:21
Speaker 2: Make sure you look in the Yeah, because it would
36:23
Speaker 2: be advantageous. I would think for Andy's defense to say, like,
36:27
Speaker 2: let's do a bench trial because the evidence was so weak.
36:31
Speaker 1: Yes, they do, because let me just look this up here. Yes,
36:36
Speaker 1: you've heard of the Richard Olin murder from New Brunswick
36:40
Speaker 1: that took place in twenty eleven. Yes, yes, where his
36:43
Speaker 1: son went on trial for murder. And I do know
36:45
Speaker 1: that his conviction was overturned and he got a retrial,
36:47
Speaker 1: and I think they did ask for a bench trial,
36:49
Speaker 1: and the judge pretty much ruled that I don't believe
36:51
Speaker 1: the evidence is strong enough to prove his guilty on
36:54
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt and found him not guilty. So yeah,
36:57
Speaker 1: those do exist and are definitely better if the prosecution
37:01
Speaker 1: is presenting a weak case, because most of the time
37:04
Speaker 1: the judges will act objective and say that I don't
37:08
Speaker 1: I'm not going to decide if you're guilty or innocence,
37:10
Speaker 1: but if I don't think the evidence is strong enough,
37:12
Speaker 1: I will acquit you.
37:13
Speaker 2: Because I think the judge is more likely to actually
37:16
Speaker 2: weigh the evidence in the case, whereas I think the
37:20
Speaker 2: jury is more likely to be swayed by who's telling
37:23
Speaker 2: the best story or what is the best narrative.
37:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's probably what happened in these
37:28
Speaker 1: two trials.
37:31
Speaker 2: So Andy's defense team appealed his conviction, alleging that the
37:34
Speaker 2: trial judge had once again misdirected the jury and there
37:38
Speaker 2: were too many inconsistencies in Madonna's testimony. On February fourteenth,
37:43
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, the BC Court of Appeals announced that
37:46
Speaker 2: they had originally been planning to dismiss the appeal, but
37:49
Speaker 2: we're now going to reserve judgment until new forensic testing
37:52
Speaker 2: could take place. Well, DNA profiling and criminal investigations was
37:57
Speaker 2: still a relatively new thing. When Andy was for charged
38:00
Speaker 2: with the murders in nineteen eighty nine, the defense was
38:03
Speaker 2: hoping to perform DNA testing on the blood stained genes,
38:07
Speaker 2: as well as Andrea's fingernail clippings, which had traces of
38:10
Speaker 2: blood on them. The Court of Appeal ordered the Crown
38:13
Speaker 2: to release these exhibits for testing, and Andy even agreed
38:17
Speaker 2: to provide the RCMP with a blood sample so as
38:20
Speaker 2: DNA could be compared with the evidence. The results would
38:23
Speaker 2: later show no trace of Andy's DNA on the genes
38:26
Speaker 2: or the fingernail clippings, though it was determined that the
38:29
Speaker 2: blood under Andrea's nails was likely her own and may
38:32
Speaker 2: not have been the result of her scratching her killer.
38:36
Speaker 3: This is really fascinating. So even though he agrees, Andy
38:41
Speaker 3: agrees to go ahead and give this blood sample, we
38:44
Speaker 3: find out that Andy's DNA's nowhere. It's not anywhere that
38:48
Speaker 3: it probably should have been. Remember, Madonna says that he
38:52
Speaker 3: had these scratches on his face. If Andrea had truly
38:55
Speaker 3: scratched him with her nails, and you had looked at
38:57
Speaker 3: that blood and the DNA evidence of skin cells that
39:00
Speaker 3: were underneath her fingernails, they would have matched the perpetrator.
39:04
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming they run that evidence through other databases
39:07
Speaker 3: and they can't find a hit anywhere.
39:10
Speaker 1: I actually haven't heard that it has been clarified how
39:12
Speaker 1: thoroughly they have run this DNA to try to test
39:16
Speaker 1: it and see if it matches any other offenders. But
39:18
Speaker 1: I do know for certain that they have never attempted
39:20
Speaker 1: to use genetic genealogy on it, even though that is
39:23
Speaker 1: probably the best chance they have of figuring out who
39:25
Speaker 1: this DNA belongs to.
39:27
Speaker 3: Also that in phenotyping too, being able to run it
39:30
Speaker 3: through and having it pop up basically an image with
39:33
Speaker 3: about ninety eight percent certainty of skin color, eye color,
39:37
Speaker 3: you know, freckles are not dissent, all of those things.
39:40
Speaker 3: It'd be fascinating for them to have a true I
39:42
Speaker 3: know they have composite sketches, but a true image of
39:45
Speaker 3: what they think this person would have looked lying.
39:49
Speaker 1: Well. A surprising new development would occur in September of
39:51
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven when the RCNP was contacted by the
39:54
Speaker 1: police in pall Up, Washington, who shared information about a
39:58
Speaker 1: potential alternate suspect, Vance Hill. Hill originally hailed from California,
40:03
Speaker 1: but moved to Canada in nineteen sixty seven and eventually
40:06
Speaker 1: settled in Prince George. Vance and his wife, Willadeine Hill,
40:10
Speaker 1: had three children together while he worked in construction, but
40:13
Speaker 1: he also struggled with chronic alcoholism. In April of nineteen
40:17
Speaker 1: eighty three, the Hill separated and Willadeine decided to move
40:20
Speaker 1: back to California with their children, while Vance remained in
40:23
Speaker 1: Prince George. On October the twenty first of that year,
40:27
Speaker 1: three and a half weeks after the murders, Vance was
40:29
Speaker 1: arrested by the RCMP on two charges of obtaining lodging
40:33
Speaker 1: by false pretenses. After a brief stint in jail, Vance
40:37
Speaker 1: decided to leave the country and return to California so
40:40
Speaker 1: he could move into a new place that was closer
40:42
Speaker 1: to his family. In January of nineteen eighty four, Vance
40:46
Speaker 1: supposedly confessed to Willadeine that he was responsible for murdering
40:49
Speaker 1: a male and female hitchhiker he had met at a
40:52
Speaker 1: bar in Chetwynd. He claimed that the couple had asked
40:55
Speaker 1: him for a ride in his pickup truck, but while
40:57
Speaker 1: they were driving, Vance began to harass the woman when
41:00
Speaker 1: her male companion began to protest, Vance stopped the truck
41:03
Speaker 1: and both men climbed out. They proceeded to have a
41:06
Speaker 1: heated confrontation until Vance reached into his truck, pulled out
41:10
Speaker 1: a rifle, and fatally shot the man. The woman started screaming,
41:14
Speaker 1: and when she refused to shut up, Vance shot her
41:16
Speaker 1: as well, before dumping both victim's bodies by the side
41:20
Speaker 1: of the road. At the time, Willodeine apparently did not
41:23
Speaker 1: believe her husband's story and thought it was nothing more
41:26
Speaker 1: than one of his quote unquote drunken fantasies. But shortly thereafter,
41:31
Speaker 1: Willodeine found a suicide note that Vance had written inside
41:34
Speaker 1: her garage, in which he expressed his intention to kill
41:36
Speaker 1: himself because he didn't want to go to jail. Since
41:39
Speaker 1: Vance did not actually go through with ending his life,
41:42
Speaker 1: Willodeine never told him that she found his note. However,
41:45
Speaker 1: on July the twenty eighth, nineteen eighty five, which happened
41:48
Speaker 1: to be Vance's fifty seventh birthday, he finally did decide
41:52
Speaker 1: to kill himself ya a self inflicted gunshot wound. Vance
41:56
Speaker 1: left behind two more suicide notes, one for his wife
41:59
Speaker 1: and the other for his landlord, but neither of them
42:02
Speaker 1: made any mention of the murders. It was not until
42:05
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven when Willadine told her nephew about her
42:08
Speaker 1: late husband's alleged murder confession, and he decided to share
42:12
Speaker 1: this information with the Pialla Police Department. Once they contacted
42:16
Speaker 1: the RCMP about this, will Adeine was brought in to
42:18
Speaker 1: be formally questioned and she confirmed the story, well.
42:23
Speaker 3: This one surely seems more probable than what Andy's convicted on. Again,
42:28
Speaker 3: what a struggle is is that you have someone who
42:30
Speaker 3: has an alcohol addiction and who clearly has some mental
42:33
Speaker 3: health issues, as he's been suicidal multiple times, and then
42:36
Speaker 3: eventually does take his own life. It's really sad when
42:39
Speaker 3: you think about it. You know, his wife finds this
42:42
Speaker 3: note that he's going to kill himself and here's why,
42:45
Speaker 3: and then he doesn't follow through with it, which is
42:48
Speaker 3: really distressing. So you know that there was this fight
42:50
Speaker 3: of you know, almost begging him to save his own
42:52
Speaker 3: life and not hurt himself, and then all of a sudden,
42:56
Speaker 3: she does complete suicide and will Adein goes to find
43:00
Speaker 3: these notes and she says, well, it's interesting because these
43:02
Speaker 3: don't mention that, so is that not why he wanted
43:05
Speaker 3: to complete suicide the first time, so very confusing grief
43:10
Speaker 3: wise for her. I can imagine her sitting back and
43:13
Speaker 3: trying to process, like, what caused this? Why did he
43:15
Speaker 3: decide to take his own life? He has his kids, Yes,
43:18
Speaker 3: we weren't working out, but he had his children. What
43:21
Speaker 3: was it? And talking to her nephew about hey, you
43:23
Speaker 3: know once he had mentioned in this suicide note that
43:26
Speaker 3: he had killed this couple. So, you know, I feel
43:29
Speaker 3: like she's almost just trying to process her grief and
43:31
Speaker 3: the nephew shares with the police and they bring her in.
43:34
Speaker 3: It does seem like a story that's again, way more
43:38
Speaker 3: believable than what Andy's was.
43:40
Speaker 1: And I can give Willodeine some slack for not coming
43:43
Speaker 1: forward and telling the police because he never shared any
43:46
Speaker 1: specific details when he made this so called confession. He
43:49
Speaker 1: just mentioned murdering a couple, but he didn't give any names.
43:52
Speaker 1: He never said where the murders took place. And for
43:55
Speaker 1: all we know, will Adeine, because she was living in
43:57
Speaker 1: the United States at that time, probably had no idea
43:59
Speaker 1: that Anne d Rose had gone through two trials for
44:02
Speaker 1: a crime that her husband may have actually committed. So
44:05
Speaker 1: she's just casually mentioning this to her nephew years after
44:08
Speaker 1: the fact, that I think he was the one who
44:10
Speaker 1: put two and two together and thought, wait a minute,
44:12
Speaker 1: there's a big case in Canada involving a murdered couple
44:15
Speaker 1: and an innocent man might be in prison. So that's
44:17
Speaker 1: why I'm going to contact the police. But yeah, overall,
44:20
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not going to say it's one hundred
44:22
Speaker 1: percent true, but will Adeine's story does seem more believable
44:25
Speaker 1: than Madonna Kelly's.
44:27
Speaker 2: On the basis of this new information about vance Hill,
44:30
Speaker 2: Andy's defense team filed an application to reduce fresh evidence,
44:35
Speaker 2: and in June of nineteen ninety eight, the BC Court
44:38
Speaker 2: of Appeal ruled that this was enough grounds to overturn
44:41
Speaker 2: Andy's conviction for the second time, and he was awarded
44:44
Speaker 2: a new trial. Andy was subsequently released from prison on
44:47
Speaker 2: bail and would move in with one of his brothers
44:50
Speaker 2: in Thompson, Manitoba to await his third trial. But since
44:54
Speaker 2: the RCMP was concerned about whether the evidence against Andy
44:58
Speaker 2: would be strong enough to secure another con they felt
45:01
Speaker 2: they might need to strengthen their case before the trial began,
45:04
Speaker 2: so in October of that year, they decided to launch
45:07
Speaker 2: a Mister Big sting operation and if you're not familiar
45:10
Speaker 2: with a Mister Big technique, we'll be sharing more details
45:13
Speaker 2: about it in our next episode, and we covered it
45:16
Speaker 2: a little bit in this one early on, but needless
45:18
Speaker 2: to say, it's considered to be one of the most
45:21
Speaker 2: controversial elements of the Canadian justice system. It usually involves
45:25
Speaker 2: undercover police officers posing as criminals who attempt to befriend
45:30
Speaker 2: and gain the trust of suspects in cold cases. These
45:33
Speaker 2: officers give off the impression that they want the suspect
45:36
Speaker 2: to join their so called criminal organization and get paid
45:39
Speaker 2: good money to perform jobs for them, but only if
45:42
Speaker 2: they disclose their full criminal history. Of course, this is
45:46
Speaker 2: often used as a ruse for the suspect to make
45:48
Speaker 2: a full confession to the crime that they are believed
45:50
Speaker 2: to have committed, and if the undercover officers managed to
45:54
Speaker 2: secretly record or videotape the confession, then this can be
45:58
Speaker 2: the one final piece of evidence for required for them
46:00
Speaker 2: to make an arrest. Following his release from prison, one
46:04
Speaker 2: of the conditions of Andy's bail was that he was
46:06
Speaker 2: required to sign in at the RCMP headquarters in Thompson,
46:10
Speaker 2: and while there he was approached by a man calling
46:13
Speaker 2: himself Fred. Fred claimed that he was an ex convict
46:16
Speaker 2: and quickly befriended Andy and wound up developing a close
46:20
Speaker 2: relationship with him. But in actuality, Fred was an undercover
46:24
Speaker 2: RCMP officer and the whole endeavor was a Mister Big
46:27
Speaker 2: sting operation.
46:29
Speaker 3: Let's hear it? How did this meeting with Fred go?
46:32
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, here are the details. The Mister Big operation
46:35
Speaker 1: would last over eight months, as Fred made Andy believe
46:38
Speaker 1: that he was part of a criminal organization which would
46:40
Speaker 1: pay him substantial amounts of money to assist them with
46:43
Speaker 1: their illegal activities. On July sixteenth, nineteen ninety nine, Fred
46:47
Speaker 1: brought Andy to a hotel suite in Winnipeg to meet
46:50
Speaker 1: a man named Al, who is the alleged head of
46:52
Speaker 1: this organization aka mister Big. But of course Al was
46:57
Speaker 1: also an undercover RCMP officer and na and over the
47:00
Speaker 1: course of two days, all of his conversations with Andy
47:03
Speaker 1: in the suite were secretly videotaped. Al told Andy that
47:07
Speaker 1: he was aware of his upcoming murder trial, but warned
47:09
Speaker 1: him that the police were pressuring Willadeine Hill to recanter story,
47:13
Speaker 1: which meant there was a major risk Andy might get
47:15
Speaker 1: convicted again. However, Al assured Andy that his organization had
47:19
Speaker 1: the influence to alter the evidence against him and guarantee
47:23
Speaker 1: that he would never even have to go on trial.
47:26
Speaker 1: But Al said that he could only offer this assistance
47:28
Speaker 1: if Andy officially became a member of their gang, which
47:31
Speaker 1: meant he had to come clean and disclose the full
47:33
Speaker 1: details about the murders he had committed. Even though Al
47:37
Speaker 1: told Andy that he did not care if he actually
47:39
Speaker 1: committed the crime and would fix the situation for him,
47:42
Speaker 1: Andy continued to maintain his innocence. During their meetings, Andy
47:47
Speaker 1: was told no less than twenty four times that he
47:49
Speaker 1: did not confess to the murders, he would go back
47:51
Speaker 1: to jail, but he still refused to admit any culpability.
47:55
Speaker 1: Given Andy's past struggles with alcoholism, the undercover officers decided
47:59
Speaker 1: to take a bane of the situation by bringing him
48:02
Speaker 1: to the hotel bar to drink beer for around two hours.
48:05
Speaker 1: When they returned to the suite, Andy finally stated quote, well,
48:09
Speaker 1: we'll go with I did it okay. He then made
48:12
Speaker 1: a full confession to the murders, unaware that the whole
48:15
Speaker 1: thing was being videotaped. Needless to say, Andie's defense team
48:19
Speaker 1: were a gas when they learned about what happened. But
48:21
Speaker 1: he maintained that his confession was false and he had
48:23
Speaker 1: been coerced, as he claimed that he only told the
48:26
Speaker 1: officers what they wanted to hear. Indeed, even though Andy
48:30
Speaker 1: admitted to the crime during the recordings, he did not
48:32
Speaker 1: reveal any exclusive details which were not already public knowledge.
48:37
Speaker 1: For instance, when asked about how he obtained the firearm
48:40
Speaker 1: used to commit the murders, and he never went into
48:42
Speaker 1: any specifics and simply said, quote, oh, I had it,
48:46
Speaker 1: I had it.
48:47
Speaker 3: Oh that's dirty. I think when you get somebody under
48:50
Speaker 3: the influence and you start to plan to something that
48:53
Speaker 3: they've struggled with, Like you said, it's controversial to say
48:56
Speaker 3: the least. But you know, he had maintained his innocence
49:00
Speaker 3: multiple times, twenty four times. He's being told you're going
49:03
Speaker 3: to go back to prison, you know that, right, and
49:06
Speaker 3: he's saying, yeah, but I didn't do it. Yeah, but
49:07
Speaker 3: I didn't do it. And this is to a group
49:10
Speaker 3: who's promising him thinks he's never had financial security protection
49:15
Speaker 3: in the legal system, which clearly he hasn't had and
49:17
Speaker 3: so it's really troubling when you think of this idea
49:20
Speaker 3: that they say, Okay, we're not getting the information we want,
49:23
Speaker 3: so let's actually get him intoxicated. Let's play into an
49:26
Speaker 3: addiction he has. And I wonder if he was actively
49:29
Speaker 3: an addict at the time, which is really stressful to
49:32
Speaker 3: think about too. But then he starts just unloading this
49:35
Speaker 3: very generic explanation for what he did, Like he can't
49:38
Speaker 3: even name how he got the gun. Remember he said
49:41
Speaker 3: he didn't own that, he didn't own a gun, he
49:43
Speaker 3: didn't own a truck, any of those things. And so
49:46
Speaker 3: here he's just going like, oh, yeah, I had I
49:47
Speaker 3: had it. Man, he's so drunk, who knows what he's saying.
49:50
Speaker 3: He's simply basically telling them a very watered down story
49:54
Speaker 3: so that he can check the boxes off and get
49:56
Speaker 3: what they're what's being promised to him. Worse than the
50:00
Speaker 3: read techniques in the United States, you think it can
50:05
Speaker 3: elicit a false confession. That's basically the only thing that
50:09
Speaker 3: I see coming out of this is that people are
50:11
Speaker 3: using a criminal enterprise and people's weaknesses and addictions to
50:15
Speaker 3: manipulate them mentally. That's pretty bad.
50:19
Speaker 1: I will acknowledge that there are some documented cases where
50:22
Speaker 1: the Mister Big technique did work successfully and help put
50:25
Speaker 1: guilty people away because some of them were stupid enough
50:28
Speaker 1: to make a confession to a crime they did commit.
50:30
Speaker 1: But there are also other cases, just like this one,
50:33
Speaker 1: where it just seemed obvious that the subject was just
50:36
Speaker 1: saying what people wanted to hear and that they were
50:38
Speaker 1: being manipulated. And they always seem like the Reek of Desperation,
50:42
Speaker 1: where the police are pretty much at their last resort
50:45
Speaker 1: and are thinking, well, we can't find any other evidence
50:47
Speaker 1: against this person, so we're going to do this elaborate
50:49
Speaker 1: sting operation and just hope we get the making a
50:51
Speaker 1: confession on tape. But of course the circumstances of how
50:55
Speaker 1: they do it are pretty problematic, and I think that
50:58
Speaker 1: Andy Rose's case is when of the very worst examples.
51:02
Speaker 1: So I think that about brings an end to Part one,
51:04
Speaker 1: and on our next episode will reveal how the Mister
51:07
Speaker 1: Big technique affected Ay's case when he went on trial
51:09
Speaker 1: for the third time. So join us next week as
51:12
Speaker 1: we present part two of our series on the murders
51:14
Speaker 1: of Burnt Gerrika and Andrea Shirt.
51:18
Speaker 2: Robin do you want to tell us a little bit
51:19
Speaker 2: about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?
51:21
Speaker 1: Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three
51:24
Speaker 1: years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like
51:28
Speaker 1: early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers
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Speaker 1: and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up
51:34
Speaker 1: with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars
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Speaker 1: tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in
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Speaker 1: which I talk about cases which are not featured on
51:44
Speaker 1: the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to
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Speaker 1: Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier free
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Speaker 1: the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer
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Speaker 1: is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries,
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Speaker 1: where you can download an audio file and then boot
52:00
Speaker 1: up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or
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Speaker 1: the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about
52:10
Speaker 1: the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very
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Speaker 1: first episode that I did a commentary track over was
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Speaker 1: the episode featuring this case. So if you want to
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Speaker 1: download a commentary track in which I make more smart
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52:26
Speaker 4: So I want to let you know a little bit
52:28
Speaker 4: about the Jules and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad
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Speaker 4: free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our
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Speaker 4: Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so
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Speaker 4: they're not very mini, but they're just too short to
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Speaker 4: turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.
52:42
Speaker 2: So we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link
52:44
Speaker 2: them in the show notes.
52:46
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