Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Kumar Vembu on Building a Culture of Happiness and Zero Follow-Ups (#014)

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Kumar Vembu on Building a Culture of Happiness and Zero Follow-Ups (#014) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: We want to be a zero follow-up organization.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because what is irritating for people is you know a manager to manage his own anxiety coming and asking every one hour what happened.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: So now you have to do the work and you have to keep your boss informed of what is the progress and what is the status.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have to be zero follow-up, then people have to know when to ask for it.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to another edition of ContraMind.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: In this episode, I have a conversation with command.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Command is a good thing.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's an absolute pleasure to interview him on this podcast.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Over to my conversation with Kumar Wimbo.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Kumar.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to have you as a guest in my podcast, and uh your accomplishments are absolutely phenomenal.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Building a product company which is respected globally, being one of the early founders who did that, then building a product company for India, looking at building a huge uh movement around startups.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think anything that you do, you take it up with a lot of commitment and conviction.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all something that people look up to you as uh mentor, as an advisor, as a guru, I would call it.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh thanks for joining.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, I'm sure this conversation is going to have a good lot of learnings for all of the people who are listening uh into this conversation.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Swami.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for uh the opportunity to be part of your uh podcast.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, Kumar, uh, what I wanted to really uh focus on first is really what I believe uh you've done phenomenally different and phenomenally uh you know something that others have not done is uh I was just looking at this uh early uh you know building of uh you know when you did Zoho, uh you know, one of the points that came up was you were running the India Development Center and uh you did something which is very contrarian, which is picking up people who probably you know would not uh you know want to join, say, a startup or a smaller Indian company, and uh you build it into uh you built it into a 200 uh you know member team, and uh that is something that I don't think many of many companies at that time did.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: What made you think differently and what was the reason why you did that?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because it has had a huge impact uh even today in Zoho, right?
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, and you were almost like a uh you know person who built the foundation for it, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, what made you do that?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that uh culture continues today in Zoho.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, what why what made you do that?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh there are two things, right?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: One is uh uh my own background, right?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: In the sense that uh uh like I I went to Tamil Medium School up to 10th.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I remember when I uh uh you know uh passed out of my tenth standard, uh all my teachers was were saying, you know, I wasn't good at English.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to barely pause in English.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: And at least uh one in five exams, right?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: The three midterm test and uh half yearly and quarterly, uh one in five five I will fail in English.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so all the teachers were saying uh you know in the higher secondary is in uh English and I won't uh cope with it.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I know I am better off joining uh polytechnic.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I actually joined higher secondary school, you know, because I I didn't get admission in the polytechnic.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So on the last day of uh closing admission in the school, you know, I uh I joined uh higher secondary.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh uh you know I did uh well in even in the higher secondary, but meaning in compared to the school standard, right?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I I I finished third in school in tenth also, third in school in uh uh twelfth also, right?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to engineering.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And engineering I spent more time playing cricket.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh but uh uh when I uh finished my engineering, when I got a job, I understood that uh you know uh while I was always a backbencher in school and uh I was never studious, I have probably never done homework, right?
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Always uh I would say a little bit of a nuisance in the class.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: But uh when I started working, uh I became a sort of a front bencher in the work, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where uh like people see me as a valuable team member in the cricket field, people started seeing me as a valuable team member in the uh at work, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So my own personal experience taught me that uh uh academic uh excellence or academic performance and how people behave and work at work are uh two different things.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I might have been a complete uh, you know, uh for the effort I put in, I should have been a complete flop in academics.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe because I had some uh you know uh exceptional memory, right?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can just uh uh read the book once before the exam and go and vomit it in the exam.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I could uh do well uh in the exams.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Without understanding, you know, I can transfer what was in the book to the answer paper.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: That was a skill I was blessed with.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: But when I came to work, I I started understanding everything because I was working.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I also realized without understanding you can't do anything, and that whole process was enjoyable.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say the whole uh thing about the company.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh when I came back from the US, I felt when I was working in the US, whether it was in Intel or in Qualcomm, you know, too much of uh resources were being wasted.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning uh I felt the four years I worked in India, I know I was uh contributing a lot, very busy and enjoying the work and things like that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: In the US, I wasn't uh doing much.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was very, very relaxed uh time and uh you know most days I used to cook three times a day.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's how much time I had in the US.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so uh when I started the company, I know that you know for every you know uh school first or uh the top three or top two in the class, there are 38 or 40 students who are luggage luggards like me in uh school in class.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So uh when I started the company, so it was not a thought-through decision, you know, that's what you are getting, and uh I wasn't complaining because I was one of them.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because I know that uh you know whether they have studied well or not studied well, if there is uh good common sense and good attitude and uh uh you know great willingness to work hard and uh you know and be a great team player, I think nothing can uh stop them.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Since I was one of them, you know, I know uh betting on people like me won't be the you know will never be the wrong thing to do.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the so the biggest point uh you know in one of the interviews that uh you know Sridhar Vembu talks about is he says you laid the foundation for the company.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh he says, I never believed that uh you know these people can ever do programming, and Kumar literally uh picked up people, personally did training till the development center became 200 people.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, so what's the kind of training you did to those people at those stages?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh literally uh you know you're picking up people who you yourself say were Lagards, and uh and what I what I saw in those interviews was uh I believe you did the training yourself, you built a culture, and this is really very, very critical uh you know uh tenet of how you build a company, which the culture then stays on for decades, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, what is really the important thing that you did to build that kind of a culture?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think see I didn't say you know, I said I was a Lagarde in the academics.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I did not say they were Lagards, right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of them did brilliantly well in uh uh academics also.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't know.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, uh like uh so my point is uh uh the academic qualification, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning whether they were school first or school second, whether they scored centum in mathematics or 60 in mathematics, right?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: That what did they score in science, whether they got first class or second class, whether they can talk in English fluently or not?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, these things did not matter, right?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: So what matters is can they work as a team, right?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can do they have uh uh the empathy and do they listen, you know, do they follow instruction, do they talk back when things matter?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and uh do they commit, right, and uh do whatever it takes to get the work done, right?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and are they able to learn?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the most uh important things, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: So because in my view, from the day we hired them, I would say most of them who are still with us and most some of them who left to pursue other opportunities, I have found many rock stars among them, even though they were not uh you know they were never toppers in their life or whatever, however they did in academics, because even I wouldn't know for almost uh most of the cases whether they did well or not in academics, because we just didn't uh uh care about them.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now uh in terms of uh uh the coaching or uh you know training and other things also, I think uh uh there are two, three things I learnt in my first job in IET Madras in the TNET group.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, uh two, three things of what to do and a few things of what not to do.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: So both I learnt in my first job.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the fundamental, you know, and the most important thing is to trust.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh, you know, um uh for example, from the very beginning uh we had a leave policy like uh nobody needs to come and inform their manager or me when they are taking leave.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right, you don't need permission, you just uh send a mail to the entire team because the team you are working with is the ones who are expecting you to be available at work, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So and uh in every action you show trust.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe people respond to trust.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, and so that is one thing uh you know we did uh well in the beginning, and uh second thing is uh you know uh all of us are together to learn.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the sense that uh it is not like uh I know everything, I have been there, done that, or something like that, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh see remember I was only 25 or 26 at the time, so I was not uh you know, uh like there, it was not I have never been a manager of people or manager of project in the four years I have four and a half years I had worked in the industry.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh, you know, uh in fact one thing I used to tell repeatedly is uh uh if we are going to make a mistake, let's do it now.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because uh when we still have when the cost of the mistake is low and when we still have the energy to get up and run.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that means we sort of uh uh you know uh you can even say celebrated, making mistakes and uh uh you know we we were uh every month or every two, three weeks, you know, when something important gets done, there used to be retrospections.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something I learned uh in my experience with uh Hewlett Packard, right?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Doing retrospection meetings where everybody can express themselves freely and openly, you know, sets the culture.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So in the retrospection meetings from the beginning, you know, uh, in fact, I used to joke in the office that uh you know we always uh plan to catch a monkey, but we end up capturing uh Ganesha, right?
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning uh, so we will uh start like start with uh very poorly articulated goal sometimes also, but because we are so engaged, right?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: We keep uh uh working on it, we find so many improvements that we end up uh uh you know exceeding our expectation of what we wanted to do.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that kind of bonding, that kind of you know working alongside people with that single-minded goal of uh you know uh wanting to do uh uh the best job and having this retrospection where people can openly talk about uh, you know, like I did the planning, people can say my plan uh missed many things, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and where the teamwork was missing, where collaboration was missing, where we made mistakes in understanding requirements or design.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: So people can uh you know talk very openly in those retrospections.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember uh even uh uh documenting you know in a 10-member team, having uh 10-12 pages, you know, printed pages of A4 sheets of retrospection feedback, which we categorize, analyze, and put together the improvement plan for the next uh uh you know uh next sprint, that kind of a thing.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that whole thing of trust, transparency, you know, mutual respect and uh you know uh openness, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we are all together to learn, right?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the mistakes are okay as long as we learn from it and we won't repeat it again.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is that kind of thing that ended up uh you know having a huge impact.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: So uh as I uh as I was looking at your current venture, which is GoFrogal, and uh I went back and looked at some of the Glassdoor ratings and I compared it with uh Zoho.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, GoFrugal is largely an India-based product company, while Zoho is a company which builds products for the global market.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, when I looked at the overall uh culture and ratings, uh it was very, very close to the Zoho ratings, right?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, here there is an Indian company, and I've always heard you say building a product in India, delivering a product in India is very difficult.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I saw the work life balance rating, which was slightly lower than uh Zoho, but uh right from you know the fact that uh you know uh all the ratings, if I if I were to look at it, uh, were pretty much the same as a company that's building a global product.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, what did you do in GoFrugal and what levers did you apply differently in a product company which is actually doing it in India?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because the engineers' expectations are very, very different uh because everybody expects you know the infostists or the TCS or you know a global culture which is there, while building a product for India is very, very tough.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: As you rightly said, the return on effort okay is far more lower.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so therefore, when I looked at that ratings, it was very, very stark for me, right?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that tells a lot about the way you have built that culture.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So, what levers have you used uh in building GoFrugal?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I think uh see, I'm I'm glad you are doing this podcast now because maybe if you had done it five years back, the Glassdoor rating would not have been the same.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh second thing is uh uh you know, I I if you see our uh what I had written in the Glassdoor about company overview, right?
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I actually don't respect anonymous feedback because if somebody is a professional, uh it requires that they have the guts to share feedback openly, right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we we actually honestly we don't take Glassdoor very seriously because I found a lot of uh, you know, I can say it's very easy to, for example, you can give a rating for Microsoft or GoFrugal very easily, and those guys don't even detect it and remove it, right?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Kumar, I think I totally agree with you, and uh I also don't believe because anonymous feedback doesn't give you anything, but for me it is an indication of what happens inside the company, right?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh, for me, the difference that I'm seeing is the expectation of many of these engineers is I need to have a you know global culture, you know, what happens in companies, but it is not real.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: The expectation is not real, but the fact that you have been able to do that to me is a very, very clear indication that setting expectations right is something that you have done very well, and therefore I wanted to understand the levers.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, see, there are uh I think three, four things we have been focused on for probably close to ten years now, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one the first and the most important thing is we are a happiness first company.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: That means I uh I measure happiness every day.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, by in the sense that uh uh we have a daily reporting system, right?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that uh people spend 15-20 minutes reflecting about the day's work.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and uh the first thing they report about in their daily report uh is uh how happy they are at work, emotion of the day.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right, how did they feel?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I uh in the induction also the first thing we tell every new joine is you know, professionally we want you to start the day happy and end the day happy.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning nothing that happens in the company should make you unhappy.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so that means uh we you know I believe this is very, very important, you know, uh because people spend 10 to 12 hours of uh uh their uh you know time every day during working days in the office, and we don't want friction in their work.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh you know this is uh helping us, you know, but just by measuring happiness, we are able to understand the challenges people are facing, we are able to understand you know where people are less productive or where their effort is going waste.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we are able to learn more on all aspects of uh all aspects that leads to productivity, right?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And uh improve.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: So every one of our team leads and managers also look at the daily report of every individual.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if there are uh frictions and challenges and things like that, you know, they go and uh uh address that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that so that happiness being happiness first and reporting this happiness in uh every project they engage with in a day has really helped us, you know, uh improve a lot of things.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh second most important thing we care about is uh uh you know uh whether we are providing a psychologically safe environment for everybody.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: That means uh to offer that psychological safety, you know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: We are very transparent and open.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: So even when uh uh things don't go well, right?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we uh no we we used to have monthly all hands meeting before the pandemic and now we do fortnightly all hands meeting, so one hour uh every week, right, and a few weeks there are uh question and answers also in that.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh you know whether we do well or we don't do well, whether we fail or uh we are facing some challenge or we fall down or whatever, we are very transparent about what has happened, and we also discuss about how we can pick ourselves up because we we we are real, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like uh you know we only you know uh face success in whatever we do and we don't fail, right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that sense, I would say you know, uh I also conduct myself as a human.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I will say.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not like uh you know uh the because some some places I have seen, you know, the bosses behave like they are invincible and they will never fail, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that is where creates stress for everybody.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the moment you are real, you know, I think more and more younger people also want to work with people who are real, right?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Who see people, other people also, you know.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: My boss also has these shortcomings, and he is also openly admitting it.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he also, you know, for example, I I I used to tell I don't know to people at least once a day.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that none of my managers think because they are managers, they are supposed to know everything.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I remember one of my first jobs in the industry when I was working in HCL, I used to feel some of the managers are afraid of facing people because they don't want to admit that they don't have power to fix something, or they don't have authority to fix something, or they don't know something.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the first lessons I have you know I learned and I have started practicing is let us be open.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I can do this, I can't do this.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: We can afford this, we can't afford this.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know this, I don't know this.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: So those things make a huge difference.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think you know I can really see our people becoming more and more engaged and happier and happier, and that is leading to more and more success, also.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, mainly I would say because of this happiness first, the psychological safety we want to offer, and uh what we call a social connectedness.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you know all the work is done as a transaction, right?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get to know people?
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: How can we accommodate their aspirations and their uh context and the situations?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the things I think uh that are helping.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I have a follow-up question on this, uh Kumar.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when you measure happiness first, you yourself in one of the interviews uh I heard you say that it's very difficult to satisfy an Indian customer.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and you use the word that sometimes the self-esteem itself is questioned.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and uh when that happens, your happiness first takes the beating.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh how do you address those issues?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, when you work for a global back end, if I were to call it, uh it's very easy because uh the client on the other side is mature and things like that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But here the the rigor and the hard thing that they go through will be very, very tough.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when you measure this every day and when you find something like this, can you give me some instances of where you saw unhappiness?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: How did you address it?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore, how did it help?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's uh it's something that I would like to know.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: See, I will first address this uh uh you know uh challenges in servicing customer and uh the the self-esteem point you talked about, right?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I I I would say you know uh is that something we have control over and we can fix it?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely yes.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh you know from the beginning we have tried to you know take control of that.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do we uh you know, if uh these are all the customer expectations, how do we make sure we don't put ourselves in a situation where we have to compromise our dignity or self-esteem and we have to be yelled at by customer?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give you one example.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh in a retail environment, consumers are uh uh picking up the goods or they are getting serviced and they have to be billed.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: If for some reason billing stops, the retailer is going to be wild because it is his livelihood and he cannot serve his customer.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the 99% of the time the billing will stop because there is no disk space, the bill cannot be saved, or there could be a loose contact between the printer in the printer cable connected to the computer, or a mouse would have uh you know bitten the cable, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so many other reasons are there where it is an environmental problem rather than a problem on GoFrugal software, right?
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we did is how can we identify, you know, like uh okay, this is something which is going to trigger customer and he is going to be wild, and they don't have control over what they speak when it happens, but after they know that it is a disk space problem and we service them, 90% of them even apologize, saying uh you know, we went out of the way, but they should not have yielded, but you know, the words spoken cannot be taken back, right?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, what we did is how do we identify this one week, you know, one week or even two weeks ahead?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: How can we send an SMS or notification, you know, and show in the application itself so that the owner will not miss it, the IT head won't miss it, IT SPOC won't miss it, the shop boy won't miss it, right?
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly, uh we also know how many times we raised this with the customer, right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if there is a breakdown happening, we made the customer come to us and request.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: So every single situation we looked at it as an engineering problem.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how do we proactively inform the customer?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do we even proactively remind the customer?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes uh three days before we will even call the customer and tell.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where we tell them, okay, if you come after disk is full, you know, and you want us to service, you have to pay.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: It will not be free service.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: You go and clean it up.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is the one minute video that is there on how to create a free disk space, right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that, we have solved a lot of the issues so that such breakdowns don't happen.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right, wherever breakdown possibilities are there.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can we proactively identify it?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Can we proactively communicate that?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Can we proactively communicate the impact of that?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Can we proactively communicate the service cost if they come after the breakdown for that?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that there is more you know awareness to address it before the breakdown situation arises.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the way we have you know we have reduced our work, we have you know uh significantly lowered the incidence where we put ourselves in a stressful situation and put customer also in a very stressful and frustrating situation so that we are able to proactively manage that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And uh coming to your question on uh you know this uh unhappiness and uh how do we manage it, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so for example, uh uh you know we are closed on the weekends, right?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So but uh our customer's peak business is in the weekends, right?
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: While we provide a 24 by 7 service, our support uh team alone, you know, some part of the support team which have a holiday roaster is actually working during the weekend, right?
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So now uh uh there may be support instances where the support guys need the help of some other experts or somebody in development or somebody in implementation who does not have you know uh the duty on the weekend, right?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Our engineering, sales, implementation.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Every for everybody it is a holiday on Saturday and Sunday, except the fourth Saturday now, right?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the support people who are on duty during those times, sometimes they need the help.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I noticed that many times, you know, in few occasions, people have people would have scheduled family engagement, you know, an outing or a movie or something like that, and uh, because of a customer escalation, they have to cancel that, and uh you know they also miss that family outing, but they also sort of uh they have to face the music from the family members, also, right?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we started a project called Project Peaceful Holidays.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that means why would some you know somebody who has to work on that day, he has to work.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: But whoever is on a holiday on the weekend, you know, they should never be disturbed.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the reasons for which uh they will uh you know they have to be called?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a knowledge issue of the agent?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a skill issue of the agent?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is it uh you know, a problem that can only be looked at by you know troubleshooter by a more skilled person or only by a developer?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And how can we eliminate that?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we did this for a few months, you know, and analyzed.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when we started, if uh you know, in a weekend, if there are six or eight times in which somebody had to be disturbed, we brought it down to one or two times and we we put in motion a plan where you know maybe it will be eliminated.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because so when somebody first is we have to uh make people comfortable expressing their emotion, even if that emotion is a frustration due to how their team lead is running the project, right?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because many times uh you know uh I have the power to create most stress to my team, right?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So whether I exercise my power that way or not is the question.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it is true of every level of managers, right?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh so this is one example, you know, how can we take control?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, whatever we can control, we want to give priority and control that.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing is we emphasized on you know a lot of unhappiness is because people have to do a lot of unplanned work.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when they do more and more unplanned work, their planned work is taking a beating, their planned work gets delayed, and uh they have to give an excuse for delayed planned work, and that is affecting the self-esteem of people.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we come up with a better and better plan?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that these are all one week, two-week plans.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: In a one-week period, if we can't do 90% of the time only planned work, we cannot anticipate what unplanned work will come in a one-week window, two-week window, then uh you know it's not a healthy thing.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: We are only reacting and uh you know jumping up and down, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we put a lot of emphasis on planning so that you know uh 60-70% of the people can work and complete their work as per the plan, and they have a say in the plan from the beginning.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: So these things improve engagement, increases ownership, increases uh the commitment, right, and uh by and large make people happier.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen that work in uh you know GDC, which is a global development center, but uh typically uh you know the client on the other side in India, your retail customer, you know, retail client or whatever has to be as planned like you because uh you know the unplannedness of somebody else affects money planning, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Which is where this unhappiness or peaceful holidays project typically has an issue.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, how do you uh you know how do you address that?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is real in India.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: What you are talking is real in India.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh if you're running a global process, it's great, but when you do it every day in India, uh, you know, the fact that it is amazing that you have done something like this, uh, how do you plan that?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because the client is unplanned, the your retail uh you know client is unplanned.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you really uh build that bridge to ensure that it happens?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, actually, see, uh there are two things, right?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: One is people who are in the role of uh uh responding to customers.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if I have a support team member, you know uh their job is to respond to customers.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know what sub who is going to come for support, what they are going to come for today.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: But we know that our uh based on historic uh averages and how the support lead is support uh incidents or trending, right?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is uh whether it is in an increasing trend or download spiral, what kind of things are coming.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, today I know for this product, you know, uh time-wise, hour-wise, if I plot this is how the graph will look like.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, today is a Friday, right?
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we have done the shift roster to handle that load.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we know the typical average service times to we know how many customers will come and things like that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we have uh, you know, uh we know, for example, if today current shift is having eight people, we know six people are enough to handle the support volume, and we will have two people to uh do some uh you know uh you can say some uh identifying or making us more proactive for certain other incident or eliminating certain support incidents or doing making something as a self-service, those kinds of work, these two people will be working.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And uh if there is a critical issue that shows up, or if there is a uh you know there is a long something that takes a very long time comes up and one guy is engaged, these guys can be asked to drop what they are doing and go and attend to support.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that is one plan for how do we manage development and marketing kind of work.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: There is another plan for how the sales guy and support person and customer success person work.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because in customer success and sales, you know, while they may do some inbound will be there, their work 60% will be outbound engagement that is already planned, and 30-40% will be the inbound call that customers may be calling, which they have no control over.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, in support, maybe 100% of the time they react or respond to what is coming.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we know the load in both the cases, so we manage that.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: So uh one thing that I'm picking up is uh the way you therefore manage the company uh literally is data driven, right?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because it looks like uh you look at the number of support incidents that come in, then uh you know you look at agile product development, so a lot of things is data driven.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, do you bring different sets of data together and then look at it on a regular basis?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And how often do you look at it?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: And how do you ensure that people are aware of these issues?
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I would say we are number one emotion-driven, uh, number two data driven.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, what uh and we use we we validate one with other, right?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because, for example, uh, like I have had this conversation with people who are in pre-sales, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: When I they say I have made you know every day I have to talk to 60 different customers, and each call is about 15 minutes.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: But when the data says they have actually made 30 calls and each call is only two minutes, right?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a gap between this perception and reality, especially when you know, so we make every individual actually face the truth like this, you know, because if you if you do 30 calls at two minutes average and you think you have done 60 at 15 minutes average, then your job is a burden for you.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the burden is not on the call you are making, but the burden is in your mind, right?
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: So either you have to correct your mind so that you can actually acknowledge the real truth and real experience, or you basically, you know, if it is too much of a burden, then find something else.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the interview, people say they love talking to people, but after one or two weeks in the job, their love is shown in the perception or the feeling they get about how many people they talk to and how long they talk to with each one, right?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what the data says.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the the most important thing for me always been how do people feel rather than what that the data say.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because a lot of insights you get when you ask people how do they feel, right?
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: The data can be used to validate that, right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: See, finally, I would say uh one of the most important things we do, in fact, uh to even our glass door rating or all the other things is making everybody more self-aware.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, when uh some uh something happens, the first thing we ask is whether that individual understands where the mistake happened without me telling.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, am I able to do a root cause analysis myself?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Am I able to come up with what I should have done differently?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, if that self-awareness is there and the commitment to improve that is there, we don't have to manage them at all.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: We just have to give them the time and space and the coaching that is required.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we focus on building the self-awareness uh in uh all aspects of the work we do.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh the management is number one, you know, how do they feel, right?
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh uh and what does the data say?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we then talk about the one truth.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: Which brings uh brings me to the next question that I had, which is there is uh you know something we talk about, which is the education work gap, where you really say that uh you know college does not teach what happens at work, and therefore uh the work ethic itself uh is a real issue that you face uh you know in in an organization where uh the person has not been taught in his life prior to starting work about responsibility and accountability itself, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, uh that itself is a I think I thought was uh quite telling when I heard it.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so therefore, how do you build this responsibility and accountability for somebody who is not being taught this for 18 18 years, suddenly at the age of 21 they come into work and they are talking about responsibility and accountability, the person has to kind has to change his mental makeup.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you uh uh how do you build that because this is very very important in building that culture that you have built.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: See, the thing we do is we give them the responsibility on day one, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, in every role, for example, one uh thing we have uh even in our induction, right?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh first of all, the word training is banned.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: So from day one, the person will be treated as a professional.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: So and from day one, you know, they have to contribute something to the team.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody joins in a new role, it is not like uh they will not face a customer for three months or something like that.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or if a developer joins a new role, it is not like they will not start contributing to the product for the first two months or something like that.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so we bring that responsibility by asking them to contribute on day one.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that way what happens is uh uh you know, since there is an environment of helpfulness, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: So the moment uh uh they want to contribute, they may need to know certain things.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: They may need to ask help with certain people.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: So then they start asking for help.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: They see other people doing, then they do it, they understand where they are.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So because we give them that responsibility on day one, you know, the environment is more sort of self-selecting in the sense that uh uh people who enjoy that responsibility and can handle that responsibility are with us on the 181st day.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh people who don't want that responsibility and people you know who think they can come in and do what they are told to do and get.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right, they find this place to be a wrong place.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: But having said that, you know, in our interview process also, uh, we give a lot of importance to the ownership mindset in assessing whether somebody has that ownership mindset.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you find that?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, we uh we have what is called a skill assessment and uh uh learning capability assessment around.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for example, uh uh if it's a salesman, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we ask them to sell whatever product they can best sell, you know, if they have experience, right?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever product they can best sell, we ask them to sell that to us.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: So during this, we actually push the person, right?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: And ask various questions.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: For example, you know, uh I'll tell you we have one question, you know, like uh it's an angry customer uh sending a mail, and it comes to you, you are the person who have to respond to that question, right?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So when we give this kind of question is part of the test we give to all the college graduates, freshers, right?
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Surprisingly, you know, uh that question, you know, it's a four-line by the customer, upset customer, but that four lines, in my view, they are asked there are six things for which a proper response will include six things, you know, six points of response are there in that.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: But uh 80% of the college freshers will actually say there are some problems in my support team.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Our management is hiring another support team.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: Once the new support team is hired, you will get a better service, and another 10% will say, you know, we appreciate your problem.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: We are working on a new release of the product.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, please hang on, we will give you the new version free to you.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Only 1% of the students will actually say, you know, I take responsibility, and I will come up with a plan or I will come back to you on by when we will address your concerns, but I am responsible from now on.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can reach me.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a simple four-line you know escalation mail by a customer.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I have read probably 2,000, 3,000 responses by students, and it's hilarious to read some of the responses.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: How can people think like this?
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Great, great.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh uh you know one of the uh things that uh I found interesting, Kumar, is uh you talked about digital transformation of your own company, and uh you said we had five levels in our company, and uh you know, once we did the digital transformation, uh we have broken it down to three levels, and there is no full-time manager in the company today.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: So there is only uh uh you know uh there is only a player, a coach, a mentor, and uh that's really how you have changed it.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so talk to me about uh how digital transformation affects the culture and how this change has been enabled in the organization.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very, very important insight that I got.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: I wanted you to talk about it.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: See, I think uh there are two, three things, right?
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when we started doing this, so this along with that measuring the emotion and addressing challenge and all the happiness first, everything happened parallelly.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: That means the stated intent is that you know every team member in the company should have a frictionless experience.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want friction in doing your job.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: And only if internally we are frictionless, we can give a frictionless experience to customers.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot have a lot of obstacles and challenges and huge friction in how we do the work internally, and for the outside, we cannot give a totally frictionless experience.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that means this ownership mindset is important, identifying where there are frictions.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we did a lot of process re-engineering and how to empower the people, right?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because many times friction is cost or work is paused because uh I'm not empowered, I have to go and take approval, or I am waiting for somebody to tell me the go ahead or something like that.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we make people empowered?
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, how much additional responsibility or authority can we give people in responding to a situation?
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, we looked at all that, and uh, how do we make sure information is available at fingertips for people to make decisions, you know, in our mobile app?
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, how can we what are all the things we are doing outside of the system?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right, for example, certain communications are kept in emails or certain things shared with customers or in Excel sheets or you know, Zoho sheets, how can we bring those into the system so that there is one version of truth in the system?
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and how can we bring clarity or simplify the rule?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where the role is too broad, how can we narrow down the role and create multiple roles?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: How can we create focus?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: And most importantly, how do we help all the people make decisions to say no?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if I am doing something which is very high priority, somebody is coming and asking me to do something else, right?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage people all the time to say no, right?
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning uh, you know, uh, and then we can have a conversation whether what is you know, this request that is coming is more urgent and higher priority, or what you are doing is higher priority.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right, but uh just like that, because your uh coach is telling you, or I am telling you, don't drop what you are doing and jump into what I am asking you to do.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right, understand, and uh if you have to drop it, go back to the other guy who told you the earlier work, discuss why you are dropping, what is the urgency of this other work, right?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Keep the people informed.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and in the process, uh we came up with uh you know, I came up with a concept called zero follow-up.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: That means we want to be a zero follow-up organization.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because what is irritating for people is uh you know uh a manager to manage his own anxiety coming and asking every one hour what happened, right?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: So now you have to do the work and you have to keep your boss informed of what is the progress and what is the status, right?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have to be zero follow-up, then people have to know when to ask for help, how to when to update status, right?
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, in many of these things, we have we have made significant progress in the last few years, but we are uh we still have you know many things to improve on, also.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give ourselves a seven on ten or you know, eight on ten, and uh and the ten get keeps getting redefined because of our experience, the depth we can go and things like that.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: So so this whole thing about uh zero follow-up and uh this whole thing that you talk about, uh when you really go about hiring and looking for people, you don't get these kind of people so easily uh because 99% of the market does exactly what you don't do, right?
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, uh how do you therefore uh get these skills into the kind because you are a large organization today, you are probably the largest uh you know retail ERP company in the country.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so how do you really uh get these skills into people because you don't get them ready-made, right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, how do you do that?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh see uh I would say there are many people who want this, right?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it is uh so when we do lateral hire, uh for some of them there is a cultural shock, right?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because they have always you know, see one thing with uh uh many experienced people is that uh they they want somebody else to make the decision, right?
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, but uh uh uh for example over the last seven, eight years, you know, if somebody has a problem, you know, I have a policy that what is your recommended solution?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you you know you have to tell me three recommended solutions and which is the best solution and why.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you are not able to decide between the three, or you want a validation of which one you recommend is the best, then we have a discussion.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, surprisingly, 90% of the problems don't come to me now.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Last five years, I would say.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because uh uh the moment we tell them, no, don't, you know, in fact, I say don't be a victim, be a victor.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: The victim mindset is to come crying saying I have a problem.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: The victor mindset is uh find the solution, talk to the people who can help you implement that solution and get the uh you know, solve the problem.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh we talk about this cow in the ditch story.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so basically, you know, uh like uh you know, when when you see a cow in the ditch, right, there are three, four kinds of people.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: People walk past the cow in the ditch as if they didn't see it.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: And there may there are people who may call others to help or inform others that there is a cow in the ditch, help and move on.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: And third set of people are uh they put in the effort to lift the cow out of the ditch.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the fourth set of people are those who not only take out the cow out of the ditch but also make sure they cover the ditch so that no more cow falls in the ditch.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we tell people we want all our people to be the fourth type.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many ditches here, and there are many cows in those ditches also, right?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: So for God's sake, don't just walk past the ditch, you know, as if you have not seen it.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Report it, right?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you want this place to be better, you know it's not going to happen by magic, right?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: One year later, if you say this race is still bad, you are equally responsible.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the ownership mindset, that is the attitude we want to see in people, right?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for all problem, in fact, I tell them, you know, every problem that is there in the company, I am not the only one responsible for it.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of us are equally responsible because you have uh poor sensitivity.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: If the problem is so damn important, we have all the resources, all the time, all the energy.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, everything is there.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't we then say it is it is it has to be fixed?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that that is a helping in uh you know uh so the moment people come in, they see that.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: We try to assess this in our interviews also.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: We tell them about our culture and this everything.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: And but when people join, we also make sure the first time they report a problem, we ask them for solution.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: The first time they share information, we ask them for recommendation.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: So don't share information with me, share your recommendation and why.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you share information, I make the decision after analysis, you put in all the hard work, I get all the experience.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something I tell repeatedly to people.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to translate your effort into experience, you have to come up with the solution.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, effort and suffering are yours yours and the experience is mine.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: So these things are helping in people you know uh understanding.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, some people also, when they interview three-year, five-year experience in the industry, uh and they come back and say, you know, this guy is like a one-year experience to only, that also gives them pride that whatever rigor we are doing, even if sometimes it is tough, you know, they they can actually, when they talk among their friends, college friends or school friends, you know, they feel they have actually grown up as a professional a lot more than the average industry.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, one of the points that uh you said, you know, digital transformation, uh, you did not uh today you don't have a full-time manager.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so therefore, what does say a senior person in the company uh when you say mentorship versus coach versus uh you know uh a player, uh how do these uh you know start playing uh in in a in a in development, in product development, in uh you know support, in uh you know marketing, uh sales.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, uh how does this change?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think this concept of a manager almost sounds like uh you know, I I if I manage 3,000 people, I'm supposed to be competent, right?
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, that is the thing that has actually been built into people's head.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so uh I don't need to have any competency, but I have to manage people, right?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, therefore, for me uh it uh it struck a bell, and therefore uh I want you to spend some time saying why did you remove this full-time manager role, and therefore, how what do you do to ensure that this happens right in the company?
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: See, the moment you remove follow-up, you know uh what is left in the manager's job, right?
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: We have to look at that component, right?
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because a significant uh portion of see why you know um middle management people see every time there is a trimming of the workforce or layoff in our software services, people always talk about the middle management people getting laid off.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of those middle managers are unemployable in the industry because they might have been rock star programmers before becoming a middle manager, but if they have spent five years as a middle manager, they have become an expert in Excel and they have become expert in following up.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: So that is why you know the problem comes.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about it openly to people.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to be like that, right?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: We whether you are uh 10-year experienced manager or 20-year experienced manager, you know, any day you are not happy here, you must be able to find a job within a day.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's an insult to me.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that is the theme we continue to talk about.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that means it is very, very important, right?
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you reduce the follow-ups, because follow-ups create stress, follow-ups create unhappiness.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_00: So now uh we try to make everybody, in fact, we follow this, everybody manages something.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in a development team, if there are uh uh five projects scheduled for this weekly sprint, you can say most of those five projects, all the five projects will be owned by some team member or the other, right?
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the reporting manager kind of a person is only a facilitator there.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: The projects are owned by different team members, they do the project plan for that project, they contact the stand-up of that project, whether it is a cross-functional team or within the team or whatever, right?
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh things like that.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now this uh the traditional manager's job is to coach.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: That means if there is a critical challenge, how can he do joint work with the team member?
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: How can the manager review the plan and make sure the plan is very good?
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's responsibility is very clear, you know, the milestones are very clear, the plan is very agile, right?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the manager spends in you know uh contributing to every project by reviewing the plan, by working as a team member in some of the projects, by doing joint work with some of the people in the plan.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right, maybe by reviewing the requirements and giving feedback, reviewing the test plan and giving feedback.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: And these reviews and feedback are actually coaching, right?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that is how because you know most of the projects also get front loaded.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: We spend more time in the requirement stage and planning stage and use cases review or what we call as BDD or TDD reviews, the later stage follow-ups can be totally eliminated because the team is very confident of executing, and there is visibility on what needs to be done during the execution phase, and this coach can take his eye off in the execution phase.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: So the the coach actually spends on, you know, uses experience to front load every part of the work.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, same thing happens in sales.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: So our sales managers uh listen to recordings of demo, like recordings of calls and uh coach the person, or they go to the customer calls where they observe how the person is doing and help him you know get coached.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say uh the joint work is very important.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so uh I'm going to ask you a last question, though I had lots of questions.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think I have overshot the time.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: So this is largely a culture discussion, which, in my opinion, is absolutely gold as far as I'm concerned.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_02: What you have said.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you said as a CEO, as a founder, uh you resign every night and reappoint yourself every morning so that you don't defend your decisions.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me a little bit about it and why is it important for senior leaders to do this?
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think uh see, many times we get attached to uh you know uh what we already know or what we have already done.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the market is changing so much.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_00: The customer expectations are changing so fast, new threats are new opportunities are emerging every day.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you you know uh I take my responsibility as you know, there are let's say today 350 team members with us, right?
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: My responsibility is to their career, right?
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that means uh uh my first responsibility is any day they are not happy, are they able to find a job next day?
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: That means we have to uh continuously make sure we are aligned to the market, not only as a company, as a team member is also what we do.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right, so that is very important because that that confidence is what will help us build better and better products, offer better and better service.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if we have to be relevant in the market all the time, right, I think we have to spend some time looking at where is the market going, and if I am an outsider, how do I see myself in this new market?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I I love a quote by Narayana Murti, right?
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: He says, progress is the distance between the mind and the mindset.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: So even when you know a reality, right, your mind can acknowledge the reality, but your mindset will fight it.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: So when you resign in the night, right, you basically put your mindset to a little bit of a rest, right?
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: You you openly look at you know uh where are you?
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are you going to be relevant six months from today, one year from today, five years from today, ten years from today?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have to be relevant five years from today, I know if I am going down the same path, I will be obsolete in three years.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if I have to be relevant in five years from today, what should I do differently?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: What course correction I have to do?
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: What new initiatives I have to start, what investment I have to do.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it becomes easy to make those decisions, right?
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because we keep reading a lot of things, so the mind does acknowledge the reality, right, and the future.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: And by resigning every night, I make sure you know I also act on what the mind is acknowledging as the reality and new future.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: On that note, uh Kumar, uh, thanks a lot.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I actually uh loved some of the points that you said.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's been a brilliant session, and thanks a lot for your time.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_02: The key tenet of any company is really culture, and uh, you've really put a lot of thought and uh I would say a disciplined thinking into how do you really build this.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's it's been a fantastic conversation.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: And thanks a lot for your time.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Scotty.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the