Latest / UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell / UnchainedTV: How To End Injustice Everywhere!

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UnchainedTV: How To End Injustice Everywhere! · UNCHAINEDTV'S Truth Files with Jane Velez-Mitchell

0:00
Here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell.
0:03
We are so excited and honoured to have
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Dr. Melanie Joy on Unchained TV, the famed
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social psychologist and best-selling author talking about
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that new book, How to End Injustice Everywhere.
0:14
Let's do it.
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Dr. Joy is an internationally recognised speaker who
0:18
wows her audiences and has written many other
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books, including my fave, Why We Love Dogs,
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Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows, which was a
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huge bestseller.
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She's got so many other books under her
0:29
vegan belt, but today we are talking about
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her very latest.
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I love this book, Dr. Joy, How to
0:38
End Injustice Everywhere.
0:40
I think it's something we all strive for.
0:42
You said you wrote this book in order
0:44
to give people who are trying to end
0:46
injustice everywhere, the information and the tools they
0:49
need to be more effective.
0:50
So for example, how does your book help
0:52
animal activists become more effective?
0:55
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you, Jane,
0:58
and thank you for that incredibly warm welcome
1:01
as always.
1:02
And I just, I love talking to you
1:03
and I'm so happy to be here.
1:05
So yeah, I wrote the book for several
1:07
reasons.
1:08
So one, I wanted to shed light on
1:12
the common structure of all unjust systems, as
1:16
well as the common mentality, most importantly, that
1:19
drives these unjust systems.
1:20
So unjust systems like racism, patriarchy, speciesism, carnism,
1:26
environmental degradation, and so on.
1:29
So one of the goals of the book
1:31
is to help advocates from all justice movements,
1:34
right?
1:35
Who are working to end any injustice to
1:37
really understand the interconnectedness of all injustices, because
1:42
with this understanding, then advocates for humans, animals,
1:47
or the environment are better able to support
1:50
each other's efforts rather than to get in
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the way of each other's efforts.
1:54
And also to unify across causes.
1:57
And another goal is to help those who
1:59
are working for progressive causes like vegans, more
2:04
effectively advocate to others, to really attract supporters
2:08
to whatever cause they're working for.
2:10
And this will become clear when we talk
2:12
a little bit, but a little bit later,
2:14
but the same mentality that, you know, drives
2:18
all forms of injustice is the mentality that
2:22
also drives people away from our cause when
2:26
we're not advocating effectively.
2:28
And finally, I wanted to provide practical tools
2:31
to help advocates reduce infighting and build more
2:35
resilient and impactful groups and movements for justice.
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And infighting is, I know we'll have time
2:42
to talk about this today, but it is
2:44
bleeding a tremendous amount, a massive amount of
2:47
resources from the vegan movement.
2:50
And so, you know, these are just a
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few of the ways that I feel the
2:54
book can help us to be more effective
2:56
at helping to end animal exploitation.
3:00
Yes, and we just asked you to move
3:01
your mic a little bit away from the
3:03
camera so we can see you.
3:04
Oh, can you see that now?
3:05
There we go, perfect, absolutely perfect.
3:08
You know, you mentioned the infighting and I
3:10
have been a follower of yours for so
3:12
long.
3:12
And I saw you at the International Animal
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Rights Conference in Luxembourg way back in 2018
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and you spoke about this.
3:22
So let's play a little clip and then
3:24
we're gonna talk about that on the other
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side.
3:26
How are you?
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I know it's amazing to be here in
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a sea of vegans, a room full, a
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large room completely packed with people working to
3:37
make the world a better place for animals.
3:39
Nothing inspires me more.
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So thank you so much.
3:43
And I love having the opportunity to stand
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up in front of a group of vegans
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who are often so committed and working so
3:52
hard to make the world a better place
3:53
for animals and being able to share good
3:55
news like how the vegan movement is growing
3:59
exponentially all over the world, which it is.
4:02
The movement is growing all over the world
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and that's amazing.
4:06
Today, I'm actually gonna talk about something else
4:08
that's growing and it's growing within the vegan
4:11
movement.
4:12
And this is a virus of sorts.
4:17
It is a virus that is contagious.
4:22
It is debilitating and it can be potentially
4:26
even deadly.
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But in this, there is also good news
4:30
because when we recognise this virus, then with
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awareness of this virus, then we're in a
4:35
position to prevent it from spreading, to reverse
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its course and ultimately to heal our movement.
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And the virus I'm talking about today is
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toxic communication among vegans.
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Now, before I talk about toxic communication and
4:52
define it, what exactly it is, I'm gonna
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just show you a few examples.
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Can you see this to read yourselves?
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Is it people in the back, large enough
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on the screen?
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Okay, I had a lot of examples to
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choose from, unfortunately, and just chose four of
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them to give you a sense of some
5:16
of the problems that we're talking about today.
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And I'm just curious before moving on, how
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many of you have witnessed toxic communication?
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This is vegan to vegan.
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Okay, I didn't even finish the question and
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all the hands went up.
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So you know what I'm talking about.
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So there you were in 2018, an incredible
5:36
speech, but yet here we are in 2024,
5:39
we're still talking about infighting.
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So tell us a little bit about the
5:43
problem with infighting and what's behind it.
5:47
Well, that's a big question and a really,
5:50
really important question.
5:51
So infighting is, so I was talking then
5:55
specifically about toxic communication, which is the primary
5:58
way that infighting is actually manifested or expressed.
6:03
Infighting, I spent about a year and a
6:05
half doing a deep dive into all things
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infighting.
6:10
And the last chapter of my book, How
6:12
to End Injustice Everywhere is about infighting.
6:15
And I really wanted to understand, number one,
6:20
like what exactly is infighting?
6:22
How would we even define it?
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Everybody that I talked to in the movement
6:25
and people from other justice movements as well
6:28
were very, very concerned and everybody knew that
6:32
this was a big problem, but nobody knew
6:34
what was causing it and how to end
6:35
it.
6:36
So I wanted to look at the causes
6:37
of infighting, the consequences, how much financially is
6:41
this actually costing the movement?
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How much is it costing the movement in
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other ways as well?
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And most importantly, what the tools would be,
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what are some practical tools that people, vegans
6:52
in this case, could become like immediately use
6:56
so that they could become proactive in helping
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to end the problem.
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And this is what led me to write
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the final chapter of How to End Injustice.
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And it also is what led me to
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establish infighting.org, which is our new website.
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And this is a very, very comprehensive website.
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And basically, infighting is fighting.
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It's no different from what we could call
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outfighting.
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It's like any kind of fighting, except it's
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directed toward members of one's own group.
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And the very same mentality that causes us
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to fight others outside of the movement is
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the mentality that causes us to fight each
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other within the movement.
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It's also the mentality that causes us to
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communicate with people we're reaching out to in
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a way that drives them away from our
7:44
movement.
7:45
And it's the same mentality I write about
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in the book, How to End Injustice Everywhere,
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that actually drives injustices and lots and lots
7:53
of problems in our lives.
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So, I mean, the good news is that
7:56
really understanding this mentality and knowing the tools
8:00
of how to work to shift it can
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make a tremendous difference, not only in our
8:06
activism, but also in our movement and also
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in our personal lives and beyond.
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Well, I have to tell you, I have
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a whole bunch of questions for you, but
8:13
so does our audience.
8:14
We've got callers on hold.
8:16
Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or
8:19
thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.
8:20
Hi, it's such a pleasure.
8:25
One of the major risks in the animal
8:27
movement is rights versus welfare.
8:32
It's probable that the welfarists have added gains
8:36
to big ag under the guise of the
8:38
humane stamp, e.g. K3 free-range, pasture
8:42
-raised, organic, grass-raised, certified humane, and animal
8:45
welfare approved.
8:46
What are the chances of attracting welfarists to
8:52
abolitionist animal rights after reading the book?
8:56
Wow, that is quite a question.
8:58
Take it away.
9:00
Well, you know, in the book, I do,
9:03
let's say on the website, I actually address
9:06
this more because as I said in the
9:07
book, the final chapter of the book is
9:10
on infighting, but the entire website is dedicated
9:12
to infighting.
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And if we were to basically take all
9:16
of the pages of the website and turn
9:18
it into a book, it would be close
9:19
to the length of the book itself.
9:21
So there's a lot of information on there.
9:22
And what I wanna say is that infighting
9:24
very often takes, it takes various forms, but
9:28
there are two areas in particular that vegans
9:31
tend to argue about the most when we're
9:33
talking about infighting on the movement-wide level,
9:36
not within teams and organisations, which is another
9:38
form of infighting, which we can talk about
9:40
later.
9:41
The focus tends to be on ideology.
9:45
What does it mean to be vegan?
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How should we be vegan or define being
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vegan?
9:53
And also on the second one is on
9:54
strategy.
9:55
How do we reach the goal of creating
9:58
more vegan world?
9:59
And so we do see this sort of
10:01
this argument of what some people refer to
10:05
as welfare versus abolition, which is not everybody
10:08
uses that terminology, but as being sort of
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prominent in the global discussion when people think
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about infighting.
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And in my book, I don't talk about,
10:23
break down the specific nuances and differences between
10:28
different sort of groups within a movement because
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the problem is not necessarily, the problem that
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I'm addressing is not our differences.
10:39
People in all movements have differences because people
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are different and people have different ideas about
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how to interpret and practise their own ideology.
10:48
So Christians and Democrats and Republicans and Marxists
10:52
and so on, they all have differences in
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how they understand and interpret their respective ideologies.
10:59
The problem is not our differences, it's how
11:01
we relate to and communicate about our differences.
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We'll never reach a point, in my opinion,
11:06
where we really have the kind of robust
11:09
understanding and strategic decision-making that we need
11:13
if we are not able to reflect on
11:16
our own opinions and our own choices and
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communicate about our opinions and choices and our
11:23
differences in a way that helps deepen our
11:25
understanding.
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Right now, when we have differences from each
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other, it can be the whole idea of
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vegans being different from each other can be
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very triggering.
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And the idea, the way that we approach
11:38
our differences is very often to attack each
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other and to say, I'm right, you're wrong,
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and my goal is to get you to
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be more like I am.
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And so it's really, really important that we
11:50
learn how to take a different approach to
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communication with each other so that we can
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learn from each other.
11:56
Absolutely.
11:57
Well, we've got more calls.
11:59
Paige in Los Angeles, your question or thought
12:01
for Dr. Melanie Joy.
12:04
Hello, thank you for your work.
12:05
It's been so insightful along the way.
12:08
Absolutely, my goodness.
12:10
Beyond Beliefs has saved my marriage.
12:12
Let me just put that in there.
12:15
How would you say, and I know I
12:17
need to get the book and read the
12:18
book, but how would you say then to
12:21
start, like I'm friends with a lot of
12:23
folks who are just coming into the animal
12:25
rights space and are curious and, you know,
12:31
open, right?
12:33
And there's many of us that have been
12:35
around for a while that we're a little
12:36
bit more closed.
12:37
How would you say to merge those two
12:40
mindsets, so to speak?
12:43
When you say merge those two mindsets, what
12:45
two mindsets are you referring to?
12:48
Open and closed.
12:51
I mean, how do you find a middle
12:53
ground without painting the new energy of new
12:57
people with maybe some old thought patterns?
13:01
So you mean, how do you approach, so
13:03
you have new people coming into the, you're
13:06
saying, can you, sorry, rephrase your question because
13:09
I'm not sure exactly what- Well, I
13:11
find myself not wanting to bring up the
13:14
old and just stay forward thinking, but I
13:18
do find myself holding my tongue to say,
13:21
oh, well, there's been some challenges along the
13:23
way.
13:24
In other words, how do I, I guess
13:26
what I'm saying is how do I stay
13:27
open without, but also educating?
13:31
Does that make sense?
13:32
Maybe I'm not- What I'm hearing, Gauge,
13:35
is that you do a lot of advocacy
13:36
work and you bring people into the movement.
13:38
And a lot of times they don't really
13:40
know all the facts.
13:41
Like I've worked with people who are vegan
13:44
but have no idea of the way animals
13:46
are being tortured.
13:46
And when you show them the image, they're
13:49
shocked beyond comprehension.
13:51
I'm like, yeah, we're seeing this every day.
13:53
There's sort of this disconnect between people who've
13:55
been deeply entrenched and those who are just
13:58
coming to the movement and they have two
14:00
totally different perspectives.
14:01
Maybe that kind of summarises what you're getting
14:05
at.
14:08
Okay, we'll go with that.
14:10
So you want to help educate, are you
14:13
saying you want to help educate them without
14:15
feeling like you're indoctrinating them?
14:18
Exactly, yes, yes, exactly.
14:21
And pushing all my agenda on someone to
14:24
say like, oh, do it this way, or,
14:26
you know, and just really staying open to
14:29
letting them find their own processes.
14:30
And yet we have so much work to
14:32
do.
14:33
Right, I mean, there's never any harm in
14:36
sharing your perspective as long as it's, you
14:39
know, very clear that you're simply sharing your
14:41
perspective if they want it.
14:43
I mean, you can even ask them, you
14:44
can say you've been in the movement for
14:46
so much longer, they might be really grateful
14:48
for your mentorship.
14:49
And, you know, just coming at the conversation
14:52
without being open to their choosing to do
14:57
things a different way.
14:58
You know, as long as you have that
15:00
openness inside of you, if you approach them
15:03
and say, oh, you know, I remember when,
15:06
you know, I tried doing such and such
15:08
this way and I found that it actually
15:10
is a lot more effective.
15:12
And share your experience.
15:15
If you share your story, right?
15:17
Oh, I tried this, or I saw somebody
15:19
do this and it was really effective.
15:21
Nobody can make your story wrong.
15:23
And then you're not sort of talking at
15:25
somebody, but you're sharing your experience.
15:27
And you can also ask them questions, you
15:29
know, like, is it helpful for you?
15:30
How can I help you?
15:31
How can I support you in this process?
15:34
I wanna jump in and go to the
15:35
next caller.
15:36
We've got an unusual situation here.
15:38
The lines are busy because so many people
15:41
are calling in to ask questions.
15:42
That's what I call a high class problem.
15:45
All right, Michael in Los Angeles, your question
15:47
or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.
15:51
Yes, hi, Dr. Joy.
15:53
You know, as an animal rights activist, I
15:55
really struggle with intersectionality because I see humans
15:59
as the oppressors and animals as the innocent
16:02
victims.
16:03
So what advice can you give me to
16:06
reconcile this conflict that I feel?
16:08
Thank you.
16:10
Yeah, wow, that's a really great question.
16:12
And I really appreciate your openness.
16:15
I think that, you know, awareness is really
16:18
key.
16:19
Do you, if you, I think if you
16:21
have a deep enough understanding of intersection, what's
16:27
sometimes referred to as intersectionality, you know, or
16:30
I would say the interconnectedness of oppressions, human
16:35
and non-human oppression, we can talk about
16:37
here.
16:38
I think that that will help you to
16:41
recognise the ways in which these, what you
16:45
might see as incompatible actually are fundamentally unified
16:51
in a sense.
16:51
I actually wrote a book called The Vegan
16:54
Matrix and the goal of The Vegan Matrix
16:57
is a really small, skinny book.
17:00
The goal of The Vegan Matrix was for
17:02
exactly this purpose, to provide sort of an
17:05
overview of the interconnectedness of oppressions and why
17:10
this is important for anybody who is working
17:12
for animal liberation, you know, particularly through veganism,
17:16
to be aware of.
17:19
I'm gonna go to the next caller, Lindsay
17:22
in Woodland Hills, your question or thought for
17:24
Dr. Melanie Joy.
17:27
Well, Dr. Joy, I am so pleased to
17:31
have come across your work and your two
17:34
books, The Vegan Matrix and How to End
17:37
Injustice Everywhere.
17:39
I can see the second book applying to
17:42
politics, applying to corporate infrastructure and dynamics and
17:49
I have so many friends that are telling
17:51
me, basically everyone feels like there is so
17:55
much injustice going on in the world.
17:58
And I think that this can be applied
18:00
in so many ways.
18:01
That's my one comment.
18:02
The other thing I wanna say is, I
18:04
think this is a great tool for people
18:06
that are just becoming vegan.
18:08
I'm coaching someone, just a friend that wants
18:11
to become vegan and I can see this
18:14
person's coming from a very meat eating background
18:18
where this is like a whole paradigm shift.
18:21
And I just think that everybody is different
18:23
and each person when you're coaching or helping
18:26
has to be approached in a very special
18:28
way.
18:29
And I think this book will be very
18:30
helpful.
18:31
I wanna thank you, thank you very so
18:32
much.
18:33
Wow.
18:34
Thank you so much for that.
18:36
Such praise.
18:36
We're gonna go to Kush in Texas, your
18:39
question or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.
18:44
Kush?
18:45
Thanks for taking my, yeah, can you hear
18:47
me?
18:47
Yeah.
18:48
Thanks for taking my call.
18:50
And before I ask my question, I really
18:53
thank Dr. Melanie Joy for bringing up this
18:57
new book and I'm a huge fan of
18:59
her literary work.
19:01
So thanks again.
19:02
My question is how can an awareness of
19:04
the psychological mechanisms that contribute to infighting within
19:08
social justice movements, including veganism, help activists foster
19:13
a more inclusive and collaborative environment to collectively
19:17
address various forms of operation?
19:21
Yeah, great.
19:22
Thank you so much.
19:23
And that's a great question.
19:25
And that's what we're here to talk about
19:27
tonight, which is really understanding.
19:30
And I know once we take a few
19:32
calls, we can start to unpack this and
19:34
talk about this mentality that drives all forms
19:37
of injustice.
19:38
Because when you understand this mentality, what I
19:42
call this non-relational mentality, it's at the
19:44
core of all injustices, all forms of injustice.
19:48
And it's also what drives infighting.
19:50
And it's also what drives people away from
19:51
our message.
19:52
When you understand this mentality and how it
19:54
gets manifested, and when you have access to
19:57
the tools to shift this way of thinking
20:00
and build more effective communications, so much changes.
20:06
You can become really proactive in helping to
20:10
heal your groups and your movements and much
20:13
more effectively communicate the vegan message the way
20:16
that it's intended to be heard.
20:18
And I think this is the kind of
20:21
thing, the reason I wrote this book for
20:22
all activists, not just vegan activists, is because
20:26
all of us struggle to communicate in a
20:30
way that really increases the chances that our
20:33
message will be heard the way that we
20:34
intend it to be.
20:35
Okay, we have three more, two more callers,
20:38
and then we'll cut off the calls.
20:40
Karen in Venice, California, your question or thought
20:43
for Dr. Melanie Joy.
20:47
First of all, I'd like to say that
20:49
I'm looking forward to reading your books.
20:51
I am really excited about that.
20:54
My question is, I know there are many
20:57
different motivations for infighting, but what about the
21:01
jealousy factor that perhaps one group is, one
21:05
person is perhaps, they don't even realise it,
21:08
actually just jealous of perhaps the other group
21:12
is getting a lot more funding or exposure.
21:18
Is that one of, I'm just curious, do
21:20
you think that that is also one of
21:21
the causes of the infighting?
21:23
I mean, I wouldn't rule it out because
21:24
vegans are people and people fight for a
21:27
whole variety of reasons and people fight each
21:29
other because they're jealous and they have vendettas.
21:33
So that surely is within the realm of
21:35
possibility.
21:36
When I looked at the really key causes
21:40
of infighting, I had a list of eight
21:42
of them actually that wasn't in the top
21:44
eight.
21:45
And we can talk about maybe the top
21:46
three or so tonight, but certainly that's possible.
21:51
And I'm sure that that has happened and
21:53
does happen in some places.
21:55
All right, now we're gonna go to Tiffany.
21:59
Your question or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.
22:03
Yes, hi, I'm coming from Los Angeles and
22:06
I'm fairly new to the movement.
22:08
I'm very excited to order your books ASAP.
22:12
And I just had a question.
22:13
I have a lot of friends recommending nonviolent
22:16
communication courses to me.
22:18
Do you have any thoughts on that or
22:20
any ideas about?
22:23
Yeah, I would say, so nonviolent communication, what
22:27
I talk about in my books on what
22:30
I just refer to as effective more generically
22:32
as effective communication is based on the principles
22:35
of nonviolent communication.
22:37
I prefer the work of the people who
22:42
put down, it's Matthew McCain, his colleagues who
22:45
created an approach to nonviolent communication that's a
22:48
little bit more, I think, a little bit
22:51
more practical and a little bit less, a
22:54
little bit more practical, easier to apply and
22:57
applicable to all different circumstances than I believe
23:01
that the nonviolent communication is.
23:04
There's less, nonviolent communication has a strong focus
23:07
on needs and personal needs underlying a communication.
23:11
And I think that, especially if we're talking
23:13
about advocacy and some of the kinds of
23:15
conversations that we'll be talking about tonight, learning
23:19
the principles of effective communication is, I think,
23:23
going, taking a course in nonviolent communication can
23:25
never hurt because it's a great tool.
23:27
And it's not necessarily a necessity if you
23:31
really want to improve your communication.
23:33
Okay, don't be mad.
23:35
We have two more and then we're cutting
23:36
it off.
23:37
Absolutely last.
23:38
So Jose, quick question from Arlington, Texas.
23:44
Hi, can you hear me?
23:46
Yep.
23:48
Okay, well, first off, I would just wanna
23:49
say, thank you, Dr. Mallon-Joy for all
23:51
your incredible work in the animal rights movement.
23:54
And my question for you would be, if
23:57
you had to like write a part two
23:58
to your new book, what topics would you
24:00
dive deeper into or like expand upon?
24:04
Ah, if I had to write a part
24:06
two, well, I did kind of write a
24:08
part two, which was infighting.
24:11
What became the infighting.org website was actually
24:16
written in the format of what could have
24:19
become a book.
24:20
And as I said, it was as long
24:21
as a book.
24:22
I decided that it was better to put
24:25
that in the format of a website.
24:27
So I feel that that is a really,
24:30
really critical issue and deserves to be, I
24:34
think for this book, one chapter is fine,
24:36
but it needed a lot more space than
24:38
one chapter gave it space for.
24:40
Honestly, I think it's hit a nerve because
24:42
we've never had quite this many callers.
24:45
And I think people are really interested in
24:46
the subject.
24:47
Last caller, Jeff in Los Angeles.
24:51
Calling from Los Angeles, then we'll cut it
24:52
off.
24:53
Jeff, your question or thought?
24:55
Hey, Jane and Dr. Joy, thanks for taking
25:00
my call.
25:01
So my question is, I've observed a lot
25:05
of something related to infighting, but it's about
25:07
dismissing some protests and some activity in favour
25:14
of others.
25:15
And it's, in social media, this is so
25:18
prevalent.
25:19
Like, oh, well, why did you do that?
25:20
Who cares about Starbucks charging a few dollars
25:23
a few cents more, right?
25:26
And all, I feel all protests, all of
25:29
the activities that we take on are important.
25:32
And how do we respond to those things?
25:37
Right, I mean, it's like I said earlier,
25:39
it's not our differences, it's not our differences,
25:42
it's how we relate to our differences that
25:44
matters.
25:45
And I mean, it is true that not
25:48
all strategies are equally powerful and impactful.
25:51
And we are in a race against time.
25:55
And we do, I think, have a responsibility
25:58
to do our very best to choose the
26:01
tactics, activities, and strategies that are gonna have
26:04
the most impact and to reevaluate those and
26:07
to learn from others who are giving us
26:10
feedback about those.
26:11
So, and we need to be able to
26:13
talk about this.
26:15
So sharing feedback, there is a way to
26:17
share feedback without triggering people.
26:21
And that's what we'll talk about tonight.
26:24
Rather than diving into it here, I'll talk
26:26
about it with, we have some, I'll talk
26:29
about that with Jane in a couple of
26:31
minutes.
26:31
But there are methods and strategies for sharing
26:36
your opinion in a way that reduces the
26:38
chances that the other person will get defensive
26:39
and increases the chances that they'll be open
26:41
and receptive to your message.
26:43
And this is really what I think all
26:45
of us need to be learning in the
26:47
movement.
26:48
Well, I'd like to end with a positive
26:51
on this subject.
26:52
Thank you for all the callers.
26:54
I was at the UCLA VegFest this past
26:57
week and it was a collaboration from a
27:00
lot of groups, a lot of groups, vegan
27:02
groups, animal rights groups at UCLA got together
27:05
and pulled off this amazing UCLA VegFest.
27:08
And as I was talking to one of
27:09
the organisers, I was so inspired.
27:12
Let's listen to what she had to say.
27:14
What we have done this entire week, we
27:16
have eight events.
27:17
We put on this VegFest, it was only
27:18
because we were working together.
27:20
We combined our numbers, we found strength and
27:23
unity and solidarity.
27:25
And even though we all have very diverse
27:28
backgrounds, we all wanna do different things within
27:30
the animal rights field.
27:31
We're here today because we're still ultimately working
27:33
towards the same goal.
27:34
And that allows us to collaborate and push
27:36
our passions forward and bring incredible things like
27:38
a VegFest to a college campus, which is
27:40
something that not many people can dream of
27:43
because it just takes so many hands and
27:45
it's hard to find the time when you're
27:46
a college student, but we were able to
27:48
do it.
27:48
And so you could teach the adults something.
27:52
Yeah, I mean, I've been in the animal
27:55
rights space for nearly four years now and
27:57
I have noticed the infighting.
27:59
And I think at times there's always different
28:01
theories of change and people have different backgrounds
28:03
and reasons why they're here, but ultimately we're
28:05
all here for the same reason.
28:07
And I think we all wanna see at
28:09
least a similar angle.
28:11
And if we can collaborate to make large
28:13
impacts like this, I think we should at
28:14
least consider it or explore it because there's
28:18
no need to make enemies.
28:19
We're all allies.
28:19
We're allies with the animals, with humans, with
28:22
the environment.
28:22
And so we should be allies with each
28:23
other as well.
28:25
When I heard that, I thought I have
28:26
to play that clip when Dr. Melody Joy
28:29
is on, your thoughts.
28:31
Yeah, I mean, and it's so inspiring and
28:34
I just love seeing clips like that.
28:35
I love seeing clips like that.
28:37
And we all know, I mean, most of
28:40
us are very, very clear.
28:41
We all have the same goal.
28:44
We all need to be working together and
28:46
we can be very clear about what we
28:49
need to do and what our goal actually
28:51
is.
28:52
And nevertheless have trouble working together in a
28:55
way that's more collaborative, in a way that
28:57
creates connections rather than divisions.
29:00
And to be fair, I wanna say that
29:03
I think that people in this movement are,
29:05
I am so deeply inspired by people in
29:08
this movement.
29:08
It's what gets me out of bed in
29:10
the morning.
29:10
It's what motivates me to do the work
29:13
I do.
29:14
It's seeing the compassion and the commitment and
29:17
the tirelessness of people who just care so
29:22
deeply.
29:23
And a lot of people are doing just
29:25
really, really great jobs.
29:27
So I'm not here to talk about how
29:29
like, oh, we're all cannibalising ourselves, the movement's
29:32
imploding, we're falling apart.
29:34
I don't feel that that's true at all.
29:36
I do, however, feel that there's a lot,
29:39
a lot, a lot of saved resources and
29:43
increased impact that we could have if we
29:46
just became a little bit more aware of
29:50
some of the things that we need to
29:51
become aware of and built just a few
29:53
of the tools or built out just a
29:55
few of the tools that would really help
29:57
us to reduce our, the infighting that does
30:01
exist.
30:01
And when I'm talking about infighting, I wanna
30:03
just like kind of have a caveat here.
30:06
And I should, I did say earlier, I
30:09
was defining infighting earlier and saying it's the
30:11
same as any kind of fighting except that
30:13
it's directed against members of one's own group.
30:17
Infighting can be expressed on the movement-wide
30:19
level or you could see a lot in
30:21
teams, like working within an organisation, for example,
30:25
or people even in the same team.
30:28
I wanna say that infighting is not in
30:31
disagreeing.
30:33
It's really important to appreciate that disagreements about
30:36
various issues, right, from philosophy to strategy to
30:39
values, they're absolutely essential for creating a diverse
30:43
and impactful movement.
30:44
Our differences are our power in many ways.
30:47
Some of these disagreements are particularly important, like
30:50
when women or BIPOC and so on challenge
30:54
imbalances of power in the movement.
30:56
So we need to be really careful not
30:58
to refer to healthy challenges that are helping
31:00
a movement evolve as infighting, or we could
31:03
be weaponising the concept and silencing critical voices.
31:08
Also, I wanna say that a lot of
31:10
what we call infighting is actually in bullying.
31:14
A fight implies that there are two or
31:15
more sides attacking each other, but often what
31:18
we see happening is one individual, you know,
31:22
using their platform or their power to attack
31:25
another, and this is a form of bullying.
31:27
And there is, unfortunately, a lot of bullying
31:29
in our movement.
31:30
I think it might be useful for listeners
31:32
if we sort of jump in so that
31:34
people really understand when I talk about this
31:36
mentality that drives us to fight each other,
31:39
so that I can actually explain what this
31:41
mentality is and what it looks like.
31:44
Yes, and you talk about non-relational communication.
31:49
How do we know when we're being non
31:50
-relational in communication?
31:53
So why don't I talk about this non
31:55
-relational way of being first, and then we
31:58
can apply this and talk about communication.
32:01
So, you know, when we look at, like,
32:05
the problems in our world, when we look
32:06
at the great injustices in our world and
32:09
in our personal lives, you know, just being
32:11
mistreated, domestic abuse even, or, you know, interpersonal
32:16
fights that we have that are unjust, you
32:19
know, toxic workplaces, we can see that these
32:23
problems share a common denominator, and this common
32:25
denominator is relational dysfunction.
32:28
It's dysfunctional ways of relating, right?
32:31
Relating between social groups, between individuals, between humans
32:36
and animals, you know, between humans and the
32:38
environment, and so on and so forth.
32:41
And so a common denominator in changing these
32:44
problems is what I call building relational literacy.
32:48
Relational literacy is the understanding of an ability
32:52
to practise healthy ways of relating.
32:55
Relational dysfunction is based on a particular mentality.
32:58
It's the non-relational mentality.
33:00
And relational literacy is based on the opposite
33:03
mentality.
33:04
And I'll explain what these are right now.
33:06
And I'll explain it by explaining how, you
33:09
know, this is the foundation of relational literacy,
33:12
right?
33:12
So relational literacy is made up of a
33:15
bunch of practises and tools, but they're all
33:17
founded on this one, what I call the
33:19
formula for healthy relating, this one key formula
33:22
for healthy relating.
33:24
So, did you wanna say something?
33:28
Yeah, no, I'm listening.
33:30
I wanna know the formula for healthy relating,
33:33
for sure.
33:34
Okay, so I thought you were going to
33:36
ask me something.
33:37
So in the formula for any interaction or
33:42
any relationship, a relationship is really just a
33:44
series of interactions, right?
33:46
So when it is healthy, we do two
33:50
things.
33:51
We practise integrity and we honour dignity.
33:54
And I'll unpack this so it's really clear.
33:56
When we practise integrity, that means we basically
33:59
practise the values, the core moral values of
34:02
compassion and justice.
34:04
Another way to say this is we practise
34:06
respect.
34:07
We treat the other individual the way that
34:09
we would want to be treated if we
34:11
were in their position.
34:12
When we honour someone's dignity, that means that
34:16
we think of them, right?
34:18
And also treat them.
34:19
We think of them as being worthy of
34:23
occupying space on the planet and of being
34:25
treated with respect.
34:27
They are no less worthy than anyone else
34:29
of being treated with respect.
34:31
So when we practise integrity and honour dignity,
34:35
this leads to two things.
34:37
This leads to us feeling a sense of
34:39
connection and a sense of security.
34:42
And just to make this less abstract, I'd
34:44
like everybody listening to just think of a
34:47
relationship in your life that you consider a
34:49
really good relationship.
34:52
Chances are you trust that that other person
34:55
practises integrity toward you.
34:56
You trust that they treat you with respect.
34:59
And you trust that they honour your dignity.
35:01
They don't see you as less worthy of
35:04
being treated with respect or of being here
35:06
on this planet than they are or anyone
35:08
else.
35:09
And you probably feel secure and connected with
35:11
them.
35:13
And the non-relational mentality is based on
35:17
the opposite of this, right?
35:19
Non-relational behaviours, which are a reflection of
35:23
the non-relational mentality, reflect the opposite.
35:27
It is when we violate integrity and harm
35:31
dignity.
35:32
And this leads to a sense of disconnection
35:34
and insecurity.
35:36
So again, think of a relationship in your
35:38
life, a not good relationship in your life.
35:41
Maybe it's with somebody you've never met before,
35:42
like maybe even an online troll.
35:45
Chances are you believe, you experience this other
35:49
individual as violating integrity toward you, not treating
35:52
you with respect and harming your dignity, perceiving
35:56
you, seeing you as inferior, as less worthy
35:59
than they are or of others of being
36:02
treated with respect.
36:03
And you feel disconnected from them and insecure
36:06
with them, right?
36:08
So relational mentality is healthy and functional.
36:12
The non-relational mentality is unhealthy and dysfunctional.
36:16
It's really, this is the bare, bare bones,
36:18
right?
36:19
So any behaviour that you engage in, and
36:22
this includes the communication.
36:25
Communication is the primary way we relate.
36:28
Any behaviour that you engage in that reflects
36:31
the formula is healthy and relational.
36:34
And it's going to increase the chances that
36:37
you feel connected, you learn from each other,
36:40
and that you feel secure.
36:43
And any behaviour that reflects the opposite of
36:46
the formula, that's non-relational, is going to
36:48
drive divisions and create defensiveness.
36:52
And I'll say one other thing about this,
36:54
and then we can talk about it probably
36:55
a little bit further, but I wanna give
36:57
you a chance to jump in if you
36:58
want to, Jane.
36:59
But very often, right, the way that most
37:03
inviting is expressed through communication, because communication is
37:07
the primary way we relate, and the vast
37:11
majority, if not all of that communication, is
37:13
shaming.
37:14
The primary way that non-relational or dysfunctional,
37:19
we can call it toxic communication, is expressed
37:23
is through shaming.
37:27
Wow, I'm almost speechless, because I'm processing all
37:30
of this and trying to apply it to
37:32
my own life, which I'm sure most of
37:34
the listeners are doing as well, and the
37:37
viewers.
37:38
So how do you behave in a relational
37:42
fashion?
37:44
What are the tips?
37:45
Like, sometimes I certainly can catch myself almost
37:48
mid-sentence or look back and go, oh,
37:51
I thought at a recent protest against Adidas,
37:55
somebody was trying to talk to me and
37:56
I didn't have time, and I was alive.
37:59
And then I thought about it later and
38:00
thought, I feel bad.
38:02
I wish I had at least stopped and
38:04
talked to him a little bit because he
38:06
wanted to connect with me, and I just
38:09
didn't feel going live and being in this
38:11
very chaotic situation that I could chat with
38:14
him at that moment.
38:16
So I was non-relational with him.
38:18
And of course they say there's no mess
38:20
you can clean up, so I could reach
38:22
out to him and say, sorry, I couldn't
38:23
talk to you at the protest.
38:24
I'd like to find out.
38:26
But it's like, how do you catch yourself
38:28
being non-relational and stop it?
38:31
What exactly did you say to him that
38:33
was non-relational?
38:34
You didn't have time to talk to him,
38:36
right?
38:36
I didn't talk to him.
38:37
I basically didn't talk to him.
38:39
I was live and he was sort of
38:41
coming up to me and talking, and I
38:43
basically ignored him.
38:44
Yeah, well, I mean, in certain circumstances you
38:47
kind of, if you're alive and you can't
38:50
talk to him, you can't talk to him.
38:51
I wouldn't call that necessarily non-relational.
38:54
But I will say that you do make
38:55
a really good point, which is, you're saying,
38:58
I caught myself.
38:59
And one real key here is building, slowing
39:03
down our communication so that it's intentional, as
39:06
opposed to reactive.
39:08
There's a lot of anger in our movement
39:09
for very good reason.
39:11
That's another topic that we can discuss later
39:13
if you want to.
39:18
There's a lot of dysregulation in our movement,
39:20
this feeling of just being charged and sort
39:23
of like your nervous system is out of
39:24
balance.
39:25
And when we're dysregulated, when we're angry, it's
39:29
hard.
39:30
We all know that we should practise a
39:31
formula, but doing it is another thing.
39:33
And so the first step is to slowing
39:37
down our communication so that we give ourselves
39:41
the opportunity to get out of autopilot and
39:43
building in life practises, so that our communication
39:48
becomes more intentional.
39:50
And we build enough self-awareness so that
39:53
we're not caught by surprise by ourselves.
39:55
Most people don't realise it, that they're triggered
40:00
until after they've said 20 things that they
40:03
wish they could unhear themselves say and can
40:06
never really take back.
40:07
So slowing down your communication is one step.
40:11
I mean, building relational literacy is the solution
40:15
to most of the problems we're talking about
40:19
here.
40:19
If we build our relational literacy, if people
40:22
build their relational literacy even by 5%
40:24
or 10%, that can be absolutely game-changing
40:27
in life.
40:28
And this is not rocket science.
40:30
I have a whole book on it, Getting
40:31
Relationships Right.
40:33
And on the website, infighting.org, there's a
40:35
tonne of information and resources on doing this.
40:39
Asking yourself, as you're communicating, keeping the formula
40:43
in your mind is also really important.
40:47
Pausing during a communication to ask yourself, how,
40:51
check inside, how am I feeling right now?
40:53
Maybe the other person is not practising the
40:55
formula toward you.
40:56
So often we come out of a conversation
41:00
and we just feel a little smaller than
41:03
we did when we went into it, a
41:05
little less good about ourselves.
41:07
And we can't quite put our finger on
41:09
why.
41:10
And very often that's because the other person
41:13
was communicating with us in a way that
41:14
was not relational, that was not honouring our
41:17
dignity, but wasn't obvious enough for us to
41:20
actually recognise and identify.
41:22
So we just come away feeling like we're
41:24
somehow not good enough.
41:26
And pausing during a communication and really to
41:30
the best of your ability, checking with yourself
41:32
and ask yourself, am I connected with my
41:35
empathy right now?
41:36
Am I connected with my empathy?
41:38
If you're not connected with your empathy, or
41:40
especially if you're angry, right?
41:44
That's a red flag.
41:46
One of the things I mentioned earlier is
41:49
that a key driver of infighting is high
41:54
levels of anger in our movement, and our
41:56
anger makes sense.
41:58
I'm not putting it down, right?
42:00
Anger is the emotional response, the legitimate, healthy,
42:05
emotional response to witnessing or experiencing injustice.
42:09
And your anger is an indication that your
42:12
moral compass is working.
42:13
Your anger gives you the motivation and the
42:16
sense of power necessary to take proactive measures,
42:21
action, to protect someone else or yourself.
42:25
Your anger is important, right?
42:26
How we relate to our anger, however, determines
42:30
whether our anger is helpful or toxic and
42:33
harmful.
42:34
And a lot of us have not learned
42:36
how to relate to our anger in a
42:38
healthy way.
42:39
And this makes it very hard for us
42:41
to practise the formula.
42:43
So when we relate to our anger in
42:46
a healthy way, we recognise it for what
42:49
it is.
42:50
It is nothing more and nothing less than
42:53
an emotion that is occurring inside of us.
42:55
That's it.
42:56
It's a data point alerting us to the
42:58
fact that there might be an injustice that
43:00
we are witnessing.
43:02
There may not be.
43:03
We might just think something is unjust when
43:04
it actually isn't.
43:06
That's all it is, is a data point
43:08
and it's a feeling.
43:10
Our anger, we relate to our anger in
43:12
an unhealthy way when a couple of things
43:14
happen.
43:15
One is we don't recognise our anger as
43:20
a feeling, but we become blended with it
43:23
or like merged with it.
43:25
We're hijacked by it, essentially, right?
43:28
It's like, it's not, I'm feeling angry or
43:31
a part of me is feeling angry, but
43:32
I am angry.
43:33
I and the anger are one.
43:34
We're looking at the world through the lens
43:36
of our anger.
43:37
And we relate to our anger in an
43:40
unhealthy way when it has the charge of
43:41
contempt.
43:42
As soon as you feel yourself feeling contempt,
43:46
which is anger plus judgement, you're looking down
43:50
on someone, right?
43:52
That is a red flag.
43:54
That is a red flag that you have
43:55
very likely lost connection with your empathy.
43:58
And it's a red flag that there's a
44:01
good chance you're gonna violate the formula.
44:03
And there's been a lot of research on
44:05
this and studies have shown that contempt is
44:07
the one emotion most likely to destroy any
44:09
relationship.
44:11
Wow, just so profound.
44:13
So it's not just what you say, but
44:16
it's how and where you say it.
44:18
Has social media amplified this toxicity and this
44:22
infighting?
44:23
Yeah, absolutely.
44:25
So, you know, as I mentioned a couple
44:27
of times, right?
44:28
Communication is the primary way we relate.
44:30
So communication is the primary way that infighting
44:33
gets expressed.
44:34
And the primary way we communicate is on
44:37
social media.
44:38
That means that most of us, you know,
44:42
or I should say most communication is happening
44:44
online.
44:45
And here's the thing that's really concerning.
44:48
Social media is actually structured to, number one,
44:54
trigger anger.
44:55
It is structured to cause us to feel
44:57
angry.
44:58
It is structured to cause us to feel
45:00
fear.
45:01
It is structured to reduce our thinking and
45:04
to cause us to think in more shallow
45:06
ways.
45:07
And it is structured to basically dysregulate us.
45:11
And, you know, I mentioned dysregulation a couple
45:13
of times and I can talk about this
45:14
a little bit more fully.
45:16
I think it could be helpful for listeners
45:18
to be aware of.
45:20
Dysregulation is the experience of your nervous system
45:23
being unbalanced.
45:25
And so when you are dysregulated, that basic,
45:28
everybody knows what it feels like to be
45:30
dysregulated because you're in and out of dysregulation
45:32
throughout the course of a day, you know?
45:34
So you just like, for example, you could
45:36
be regulated, calm, you know, in your happy
45:39
place, feeling a sense of balance.
45:41
You're not overstimulated.
45:43
You're not exhausted.
45:45
You know, you're not worried about what you're
45:46
about to do.
45:47
You're just, you're relaxed.
45:49
Let's say you're like, you're starting to read
45:52
your emails in the morning.
45:53
You're sipping your morning coffee or tea.
45:55
And then this email pops into your inbox
45:58
and it's like, you know, subject heading, urgent,
46:01
five caps.
46:02
And, you know, you open it up and
46:04
it's a colleague at work that's like, you
46:05
know, complaining about something going on.
46:08
Chances are, chances are, you know, you went
46:11
from regulated to at least slightly dysregulated, right?
46:15
And social media is structured to dysregulate us.
46:20
And dysregulated people have less access to their
46:26
rational faculties.
46:27
So when somebody is dysregulated, you know, you
46:29
can be wildly dysregulated or mildly dysregulated.
46:32
Nevertheless, you think less rationally and you're less
46:35
connected to your empathy.
46:38
So just imagine, I mean, this is a
46:39
recipe for fighting and for saying horrible things.
46:44
So social media is structured to dysregulate us.
46:47
And we've got people using social media as
46:50
a forum to communicate about critical social issues
46:53
that are a matter of life and death.
46:54
You know, people can't even talk on social
46:57
media without fighting each other about like, what
46:59
birthday present to buy their nephew.
47:03
Yeah, you know, Paige had a question that
47:06
I thought was great.
47:07
And it was, how do we stay calm
47:08
at protests?
47:09
And it relates to another question I have,
47:11
which is, we aspire to treat everybody with
47:13
dignity, but people who abuse animals to make
47:16
money almost never respond to appeals to conscience.
47:20
Almost invariably, because it always starts with polite
47:23
letters and videos.
47:25
This is what you're doing.
47:26
Almost invariably, it takes massive disruptions and public
47:31
humiliation of those entities and the CEOs and
47:35
the people who are making these decisions before
47:37
they capitulate.
47:39
So how do you dovetail that with treating
47:41
everybody with dignity?
47:43
I mean, I don't think that it's either
47:46
or.
47:47
I don't think that you have to choose
47:48
between exposing wrongdoing and shaming people.
47:56
I think what you can do, I mean,
47:57
shaming tactics are highly problematic for a variety
48:01
of different reasons.
48:03
I think what we can do and what
48:05
people have done, you know, historically, in at
48:08
least in nonviolent social change protests and movements
48:12
is to hold people accountable, right?
48:14
You highlight the behaviour and the damage that
48:17
they've done.
48:18
You can completely expose someone's wrongdoings.
48:21
You can make fully public the harm that
48:24
they've caused without hurling insults at them and
48:27
their families in the process.
48:29
I mean, once we cross the line of
48:32
not simply exposing the behaviours, I mean, we
48:35
don't need to embellish, we don't need to
48:37
exaggerate.
48:38
The good and the horrible news about the
48:41
work that we're doing is that we do
48:43
not need to exaggerate any of it.
48:44
It's as bad as it gets.
48:46
All we need to do is to expose
48:49
the truth.
48:51
So we expose the truth and we expose
48:54
the behaviours without hurling insults at and degrading
48:58
the people who are engaging the behaviours.
49:00
We don't need to do that.
49:02
Okay, so no more saying, how do you
49:04
sleep at night?
49:05
That's one of my favourites.
49:08
I mean, I don't even know that that
49:10
would be necessarily degrading, to be honest, that
49:13
kind of a statement.
49:14
But I think we can say, I mean,
49:18
I have to think about that statement, I
49:19
hadn't thought it through.
49:21
But anyway, I think we can choose ways,
49:25
we can expose the truth without taking that
49:29
extra step of like causing unnecessary, like making
49:34
ourselves look bad in the process, right?
49:36
Like doing unnecessary damage in the process.
49:39
What we need to do is expose the
49:41
truth.
49:42
Well, your book and your message is so
49:45
fascinating.
49:46
And I think one of the core questions
49:47
is, how is it, or maybe talk about
49:50
how people can be very compassionate toward animals,
49:52
toward the planet, toward helping people get healthy
49:55
and live a healthy life by going vegan.
49:57
And yet in their interpersonal lives, they do
50:00
not have compassion or they're stunted in their
50:04
compassion.
50:06
I mean, we all compartmentalise.
50:09
People have a remarkable ability to compartmentalise.
50:12
You've got great humanitarians doing incredible work in
50:15
the world who are eating animals in the
50:16
process.
50:17
And you've got vegans who are like so
50:20
committed to compassion that are treating other human
50:22
beings in ways that they don't even believe
50:26
in themselves.
50:27
So everybody compartmentalises, even just like the roles
50:31
that we play and how we think of
50:32
ourselves in the roles and the beliefs we
50:34
have about ourselves in those roles, drive how
50:37
we treat people.
50:38
People can be lovely human beings to be
50:42
around until you're a flight attendant serving them.
50:45
And then suddenly they're not.
50:46
So I think we just need to accept
50:48
ourselves and realise the perfect is the enemy
50:51
of the good.
50:52
We have all been born into an incredibly
50:54
relationally dysfunctional mess of a world.
50:57
All of us have inherited a lot of
51:00
psychological messiness that we can't fully undo.
51:05
And we are all complicated, messy, contradictory beings
51:10
who are ideally just striving to be more
51:14
consistent in how we practise our values.
51:17
That's really the goal.
51:19
Strive toward greater consistency and try to build
51:22
awareness of yourself.
51:23
Practise the form.
51:24
The beauty of the formula is that it's
51:26
not limited by species, it's not limited by
51:28
situation.
51:30
When you recognise the formula, whatever situation you're
51:33
in, you can check in with yourself and
51:35
ask yourself, am I practising the formula in
51:38
this particular situation toward this particular group of
51:41
people or individuals or individual?
51:44
So give us the formula.
51:45
We'll have a couple of minutes left.
51:47
One more time so it really drills into
51:49
our heads.
51:52
Treat, why don't we all make it really
51:54
simple.
51:55
Treat others the way that you would wish
51:56
to be treated.
51:57
The golden rule, honour their and honour their
52:00
dignity.
52:01
See others as no less worthy, no matter
52:04
who they are or what they have done
52:05
in the world, no less worthy of being
52:09
treated with respect than you are.
52:12
And I know you wanna, you might wanna
52:14
ask me about violent criminals and we can
52:16
totally talk about that.
52:17
That does not, what I'm talking about here
52:20
is not that we should not hold people
52:22
accountable.
52:23
What I'm talking about here is how we
52:25
hold people accountable.
52:27
Yeah, well, that was a provocative question that
52:31
I had because in the book you say,
52:33
we should apply this to all people and
52:35
includes criminals.
52:36
And I'm thinking, well, that's easy theoretically, but
52:40
in the real world, Hitler, let's just throw
52:44
out an example.
52:46
Well, like I said, I'm not talking about
52:49
not holding people accountable, but we can hold
52:52
them accountable while honouring their dignity in the
52:54
process.
52:55
I mean, think of it this way.
52:57
Had you Jane or I been born into
53:00
the body and brain of Hitler?
53:01
I'll just talk about myself.
53:03
If I had been born into the body
53:05
and brain of Hitler, if I had been
53:07
raised by exactly the way Hitler was and
53:10
had every experience that Hitler had, I mean,
53:14
do you really think that I would be
53:16
any different than he was?
53:17
Of course not.
53:18
Like expecting anyone to be different from who
53:22
and how they are is like expecting a
53:24
tree that's been rained on not to be
53:26
wet.
53:27
None of us is anything more nor less
53:30
than the hard wiring, the biology that we
53:32
came in here with in every single experience
53:35
that we've had in our lives.
53:37
So does this mean we don't hold people
53:39
accountable?
53:39
Of course not.
53:41
We need to hold people accountable.
53:42
We need to protect others from being harmed.
53:46
We don't have to be bullies in the
53:47
process.
53:48
We can hold people accountable without thinking you
53:51
lousy less than being.
53:55
And instead think you were born into the
53:58
brain and body that you were born in.
53:59
You had the experiences that you had and
54:01
here you sit.
54:03
And you're going to prison or and you're
54:06
paying the price for this.
54:08
It's a matter of holding people accountable behaviourally,
54:12
protecting others from them, for example, and not
54:15
in our minds demonising them and turning them
54:18
into putting ourselves on a pedestal and thinking
54:21
that we are somehow more like ethical or
54:27
better beings than they are.
54:29
So I think this is so powerful because
54:32
it really boils down to our entire society
54:35
is a hierarchical and this one is important
54:38
and this one's less important and this one's
54:40
less important.
54:41
And then animals are at the very bottom.
54:43
And once we get rid of that mindset,
54:45
then animals can experience rights, hopefully.
54:50
Final thoughts.
54:52
Yeah, I mean, and you're right.
54:54
If you look at like the core belief
54:56
driving all different systems of injustice from racism
55:00
to patriarchy to speciesism and carnism and this
55:04
same belief driving all behaviours that are unjust.
55:08
This is the belief in this myth, this
55:11
myth and a hierarchy of moral worth that
55:13
some individuals are more worthy of being treated
55:17
with respect than others.
55:19
And we all are who we are.
55:22
So I think it's really important for us
55:24
to, again, I think our movement has done
55:28
such great work and is doing such great
55:30
work and the people in this movement deeply
55:31
inspire me.
55:33
And I just hope that this work can
55:36
help people who are doing great work, do
55:38
what they're doing and find more joy, more
55:41
empowerment and more effectiveness in the process.
55:45
Wow.
55:46
We have been talking to Dr. Melanie Joy,
55:51
an absolute inspiration.
55:53
I have learned so much.
55:55
Everybody commenting saying they have learned so much.
55:58
So what I would urge you to do
55:59
is please get her latest book, which is
56:03
How to End Injustice Everywhere.
56:06
It is absolutely fantastic.
56:08
I happen to have it in hard copy
56:10
on Kindle and Audible.
56:12
So I'm completely immersing myself in this absolutely
56:16
crucial message for all vegans.
56:18
And of course, check out her amazing bestseller,
56:21
Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear
56:23
Cows.
56:23
What an incredible book.
56:24
So many books that Dr. Joy has written.
56:27
These are just some of them.
56:29
You can check them all out.
56:31
Just want to say thank you so much
56:32
for joining us live from Berlin, Germany.
56:36
Thank you, Jane.
56:37
You're so inspiring.
56:40
I love talking to you.
56:40
Thank you so much.
56:41
And I want to just shout out also
56:43
visit infighting.org.
56:45
Absolutely.
56:46
Visit infighting.org.
56:47
We've got it right up here.
56:49
Everybody, and order those books now.
56:51
See you next time here on Unchained TV.
56:53
Thank you.