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The Deadbeat Dad of IVF · Paging America

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, everyone.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Paging America,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: where we explore the power,
• 0:19
  profit and politics shaping American health care and what you
• 0:22
  can do about it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Miles Baker.
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  And today we are graced with the presence of Dr.
• 0:28
  Kristen Lyerly as our guest host.
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  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Larley, how are you today?
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  I'm all right,
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  Miles,
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  but there's so much going on in the world right now.
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  I'm actually pretty frustrated as a physician practicing in the
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  United States of
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  SPEAKER_03: America in 2025.
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  SPEAKER_03: Today and every day.
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  SPEAKER_03: All right.
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  SPEAKER_00: All right.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well,
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  I was just reading the New York Times and the article about how
• 0:49
  we're burning this
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  SPEAKER_03: birth control,
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  SPEAKER_03: this effective,
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  SPEAKER_03: life-saving birth control,
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  SPEAKER_03: instead of getting it to the people who need it,
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  where it would save over 700 women's lives and prevent all of
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  these unsafe
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  SPEAKER_03: abortions.
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  SPEAKER_03: But instead, we're going to burn it because why?
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  SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, that's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: For those tuning in this week, we're coming in hot.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're mad that we're burning stockpiles of birth control in Europe.
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  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't seem like a thing America should do,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you're going to get into it in a little bit.
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  Dr.
• 1:17
  Lylee,
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  I'd like to start off with what I think is probably like the
• 1:20
  big news of the week.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of news.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's all big news.
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  SPEAKER_01: It does feel like all big news.
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  SPEAKER_03: It gets buried because it's like one big news after another big news.
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  SPEAKER_01: I know.
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  You kind of scroll through the times or whatever,
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  and it's just like,
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  Jesus,
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  wow.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, remember when it used to be boring?
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Government should be boring.
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  SPEAKER_01: Government should be pretty dull.
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  And when it's like working its best,
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  you like don't hear about it very much.
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  SPEAKER_03: I dream of those days.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, okay, top of the show.
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  I want to get into this reporting by The Washington Post about
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  how Donald Trump has
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  more or less like come to a screeching halt on his promises to
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  provide IVF at a
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  SPEAKER_01: lower cost,
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  SPEAKER_01: reduced cost or no cost to people seeking to build families in America.
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  SPEAKER_01: Trump called himself,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you remember,
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  SPEAKER_01: in October in the final stretch,
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  SPEAKER_01: he called himself the,
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  SPEAKER_01: quote,
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  SPEAKER_01: father of IVF.
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  SPEAKER_01: And after reporting from The Washington Post this week,
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  SPEAKER_01: it does seem like he is more like the deadbeat dad of IVF.
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  SPEAKER_01: Last year,
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  SPEAKER_01: Trump said that if he returned to office,
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  the government would either pay for IVF services or issue rules
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  requiring insurance
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  SPEAKER_01: companies to cover treatment for it.
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  The pledge came as Trump faced political blowback over abortion
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  rights after his
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  SPEAKER_01: appointees to the Supreme Court helped overturn Roe v.
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  SPEAKER_01: Wade.
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  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Lylee, what's your take?
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  SPEAKER_01: Are we going to get free IVF from Donald Trump?
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  SPEAKER_03: I think the first time I heard him call himself the father of IVF,
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  SPEAKER_03: my response was a giant groan because it was ridiculous.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we knew it wasn't going to happen.
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  SPEAKER_03: But the thing that really bothers me about it is so many of my patients,
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  SPEAKER_03: there are so many people out there who...
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  SPEAKER_03: who want to start a family, and who heard that, and it gave them hope.
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  SPEAKER_03: And now that hope has been dashed against the rocks.
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  SPEAKER_03: And here are these people.
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  SPEAKER_03: Remember, you have a biological clock.
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  SPEAKER_03: You don't have forever.
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  SPEAKER_03: And you probably don't have unlimited resources.
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  And a cycle of IVF can be $25,000,
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  depending on what your circumstances are and where you live.
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  SPEAKER_03: So there are probably so many people out there
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  SPEAKER_03: who were hoping and praying that this was actually going to happen.
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  SPEAKER_03: And now it is radio silence from the Trump administration.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty crazy.
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  SPEAKER_01: So for those who want to learn more about this,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are going to actually on the back half of the show,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are going to do a deep dive with Dr.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jill Gibson,
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  SPEAKER_01: who is the former CMO of Planned Parenthood,
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  SPEAKER_01: Arizona.
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  And we're going to dive sort of really deeply into this policy
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  matter and some of
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  SPEAKER_01: the details on it.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll just say,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
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  SPEAKER_01: Lylee,
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  SPEAKER_01: as you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: me and my spouse,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're going to have a child this year.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're a little older.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we were looking into different treatments.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we saw the price of IVF.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was like...
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  SPEAKER_01: It's like jaw-dropping,
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  which means it's got to be out of reach for so many people
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  given the cost that I
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  SPEAKER_01: just – I can't imagine how – if you took Donald Trump at his word,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I did not and neither did a lot of people,
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  SPEAKER_01: but a lot of people did take him at his word,
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  SPEAKER_01: that if you start to see that sort of –
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  disintegrate that promise and it's becoming obvious that it's
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  either not a priority
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  SPEAKER_01: or it's DOA,
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  SPEAKER_01: how heartbreaking that is.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're in the midst of your fertility journey.
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  SPEAKER_03: I am on the other end of it.
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  But I think about all of my patients who are wanting to have a
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  family and the
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  barriers that they encounter and how heartbreaking it is for
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  them when they are
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  SPEAKER_03: faced with barriers like this.
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  SPEAKER_03: It can destroy your marriage.
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  SPEAKER_03: It can destroy your life.
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  SPEAKER_03: It certainly changes the trajectory of your life.
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  SPEAKER_03: So these are not little things.
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  SPEAKER_03: These are giant things in people's lives.
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  And it's just another thing that I'm so angry with Donald Trump
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  for so many
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  SPEAKER_03: reasons,
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  SPEAKER_03: but mostly because he lies to people.
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  SPEAKER_03: He promises us things that we count on him for, like lower prices.
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  So many other things that he has said that he would deliver on
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  on day one that he
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  SPEAKER_03: has failed to deliver on.
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  SPEAKER_03: And now the American public is left shrugging their shoulders,
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  SPEAKER_03: wondering where is that going to come from?
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  SPEAKER_03: What does the future actually look like for me?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  Can I share with you my conspiracy theory on why he called
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  himself the father of IVF?
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  SPEAKER_01: It is a conspiracy theory.
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  SPEAKER_01: Please do.
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  SPEAKER_01: Back in October when he did this November.
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  SPEAKER_01: So September and October,
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  the podcast that was at like the top of the manosphere was
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  called Flagrant Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was the lead guy who's like people would call him a podcast, bro.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think some people would say that derisively.
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  SPEAKER_01: Some people would say that fine.
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  He was talking about his IVF journey and how Trump's promise on
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  that made him like
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  SPEAKER_01: Donald Trump,
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  SPEAKER_01: even though he was a lifelong Democrat.
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  And you saw sort of like a really big megaphone on the Internet
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  throw their support
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  SPEAKER_01: towards them.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if he was going around.
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  And you know that that was like part of their strategy was
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  courting some of those
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  SPEAKER_01: big online megaphones.
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  And I know it's at the same time of the conversation within the
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  right of like the
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  SPEAKER_01: natalist conversation.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's hard to say like which one he was doing.
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  But I think I literally think he made a promise to millions of
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  Americans to
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  SPEAKER_01: literally get one podcast into our world.
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  I think it was quite like that because remember what else was
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  happening across the country?
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  Like this was in Alabama when the whole Supreme Court issue
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  happened and people
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  were – their embryos were being held hostage in a freezer in
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  Alabama because they
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  SPEAKER_03: were afraid to transport them.
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  If anything were to happen to their embryos,
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  would they be charged with murder?
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  SPEAKER_03: So it became a really –
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  SPEAKER_03: challenging, ethical flashpoint.
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  SPEAKER_03: And you started to see people started talking about it.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then they started doing polling.
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  SPEAKER_03: And you saw that most people were in favor of IVF.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I think it probably came from that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Although, I mean, I do agree with you, though, is that kind of stuff.
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  SPEAKER_03: If there's one thing that Donald Trump is brilliant at,
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  SPEAKER_03: it's recognizing a moment and capitalizing on it.
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  SPEAKER_03: And he did.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, he did.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So more on that in the back half of the show.
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  SPEAKER_01: We got a great deep dive on it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So stick around for that good interview.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
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  Then next up on our agenda here is just a little bit more
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  creepy big tech.
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  SPEAKER_03: What is that even creepy today?
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of things in the news are creepy today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Today specifically, the news is creepy.
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  The Trump administration has begun breaking down the silos
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  between Medicaid and
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: ICE,
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  SPEAKER_01: which we've covered on this show a number of different times,
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  SPEAKER_01: with ICE,
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  with the HHS handing over Medicaid rolls with specific
• 7:30
  information and with medical
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  SPEAKER_01: information over to the Department of Homeland Security,
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  which has now explicitly stated that they are going to use
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  Medicaid data and
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  in order to go essentially hunt immigrants and use that as a
• 7:42
  way to go track folks down.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: So in that context,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: and these are not necessarily related,
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  but it's important that this is happening in the context of
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  federal data piracy,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better term.
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  They're moving forward with a plan aimed at making electronic
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  records more
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  SPEAKER_01: accessible across the health care system.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: The move has some observers very concerned.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Enormous ethical and legal concerns,
• 8:01
  Georgetown University law professor and public health
• 8:03
  specialist Lawrence Gostein
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  SPEAKER_01: told ABC News.
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  I think we need to learn more about what like portable medical
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  data could look like
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  SPEAKER_01: and what the plan is there to be particularly critical of that.
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  SPEAKER_01: So more to come as we understand what that looks like.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is some of the very first reporting.
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  But in the context of this sort of probably illegal data
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  sharing from HHS to ICE
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  SPEAKER_01: and Homeland Security,
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  SPEAKER_01: I struggle to understand how we will track
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  Trust submitting like our data to like some federal big tech of
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  collaboration to
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  like hold for some people some of their most like some of their
• 8:45
  biggest secrets in
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  SPEAKER_01: their life.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  Some of the things that they don't want to they don't want to
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  share with anybody or the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: This reminds me of – do you remember when Bill Clinton was president?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is probably way before your time.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: And they were talking about – yeah, you were little.
• 9:00
  They were talking about a chip that would have all of your
• 9:02
  medical information on
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: and it would like be implanted in your forearm or something like that.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember all the details,
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  but there was going to be a chip that had all of your data on
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  it and people were
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  SPEAKER_03: very upset.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: This was also like, you know, people were thinking about 1984.
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  And so all of that Big Brother stuff was feeling very relevant
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  back then and very scary.
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  Now we are actually living in Big Brother times where people
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  know not to say
• 9:25
  certain things in the midst of their phones and their Googles
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  and all of their
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: other electronics.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yet these things are continuing to happen.
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  SPEAKER_03: And now on what we know to be a very insidious and dark level,
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  SPEAKER_03: and I think a lot of the American public,
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  SPEAKER_03: part of what's been happening with the Trump administration is,
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  SPEAKER_03: we said it earlier,
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  SPEAKER_03: there's so much information,
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  SPEAKER_03: it's hard to keep up with it all.
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  SPEAKER_03: People feel overwhelmed.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: I suspect that if you ask somebody,
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  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: what do you think about,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: having all your medical information?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the government, I suspect most people would say, bad idea.
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  SPEAKER_03: I don't like it.
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  SPEAKER_03: But it's just too much to keep up with.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_03: Talking to you now is the first time that I had heard about this.
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  So I wonder about the regular person who's just out there
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  trying to get by in the world.
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  SPEAKER_03: I wonder what they know.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the big tech companies that were in attendance were Google,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Amazon,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: OpenAI,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: and then we had providers from Cleveland Clinic and UnitedHealth Group.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, Cleveland Clinic notwithstanding, I do not want Sindhar Pichai.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I do not want Jeff Bezos.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I do not want Sam Altman.
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  I don't want anyone at UnitedHealth Group knowing my health
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  data,
• 10:32
  if I'm being honest.
• 10:34
  I think,
• 10:34
  like,
• 10:35
  the idea that we would – the idea that if I say something to my
• 10:38
  physician –
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  And that is getting into a data system that's controlled by any
• 10:42
  one of those companies.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I am reluctant to do that.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I could see it driving down.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: We've already seen some research.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about this in just a minute.
• 10:49
  Like that trust in physicians and trust in the health care
• 10:52
  system overall is
• 10:53
  eroding because of like some of the toxic rhetoric that's being
• 10:57
  used around health
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: care around vaccines.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
• 11:00
  And I wonder if you add sort of this extra layer of
• 11:03
  surveillance capitalism.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: and Miles,
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm an OBGYN doctor,
• 11:08
  so think of some of the sensitive subjects that I talk to my
• 11:11
  patients about,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: fidelity issues,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: sexually transmitted infections,
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: abortion,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: miscarriage,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: all of those really tender issues.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_03: I've had patients say to me,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: I really want to tell you something,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: but I don't want it in my record.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: And they want the information, but they just don't want it written down.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: So now you take that to a whole different level.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just going in your medical record.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not in a paper chart.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's not in your medical record at your institution.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_03: But now the government holds it and you don't trust the government.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, that's really scary stuff.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're just missing Mark Zuckerberg.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's the only one.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's lurking somewhere in the background.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: That creep.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: With his gold chain on, dreaming up some sort of a rap song for his wife.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's nice.
• 11:50
  So we will try to come back to that as we learn more about the
• 11:53
  developments there.
• 11:54
  You know,
• 11:55
  I hope that doesn't get as weird as it sounds like it could
• 11:57
  get.
• 11:57
  I go to a little bit of a dark place where the tech companies
• 12:00
  are involved.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 12:02
  Because you feel like such a little guy,
• 12:03
  like there's nothing you can do about it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's so overwhelming.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're so enormous, right?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like in some cases,
• 12:08
  you just tend to see that the federal government is sort of no
• 12:11
  match in terms of
• 12:13
  whether it's the regulating bodies or whether it's just such an
• 12:16
  enormous size.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'll move on.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So next up on our list today,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Larley,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: is we have the attacks on reproductive rights continue.
• 12:23
  A federal judge ruled temporarily they needed to halt the
• 12:26
  defunding of Planned
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Parenthood clinics.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Some are closing anyway.
• 12:29
  Two clinics in Springfield and Hamilton were among those citing
• 12:32
  the Medicaid cuts
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: as reasons they would be closing their doors.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Those clinics did not provide abortion services,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: but instead focused on primary care services,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: screening for cancer and screening for sexually transmitted diseases.
• 12:41
  I know probably everyone listening to this podcast know that
• 12:44
  Planned Parenthoods
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes don't provide abortion services.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Most Planned Parenthoods don't provide abortion services.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Most, right.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: And they are the primary care service for a lot of places.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you this, Dr. Lylee, I was, you know,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Back home,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking at news from my hometown up in Marquette,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Michigan,
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: and the Planned Parenthood there.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Planned Parenthood I visited in college, actually.
• 13:04
  That Planned Parenthood closed,
• 13:06
  and it leaves like a clinic desert in college town.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was a pretty important function in that city.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a good three-hour drive to the next,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: like a city that is,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: bigger than 50,000 people.
• 13:21
  And then if you need to get down to like even like as far as a
• 13:24
  Detroit or a
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Milwaukee,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: we're looking more at like a six-hour drive.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really a loss for a pretty big region of the world,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: even if the population isn't the largest population.
• 13:32
  It's still hundreds of thousands of people that that clinic
• 13:34
  would have serviced.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge loss.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder what your thoughts are.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 13:38
  and a lot of the patients who seek care at Planned Parenthood
• 13:41
  are not patients who
• 13:42
  have the means to be able to drive three to five hours to get
• 13:46
  basic health care.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, these are people who are struggling to put gas in their car.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: Most of them have other kids at home.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: They don't have child care that they can count on.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: These are really challenging situations.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: So when a clinic like the Planned Parenthood clinic in Marquette closes,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: and that's the biggest city in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_03: and
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: So there is not a lot going on up there.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: It is a beautiful place to be though.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: City's a stretch too.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, it's a college town.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a city.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a city.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a need there.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to reemphasize what you said earlier,
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: that most Planned Parenthood clinics provide preventive care,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: cancer screening,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: sexually transmitted infection screening.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: They provide contraception.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: They provide information that people aren't getting elsewhere.
• 14:32
  So when these clinics close because they can't take Medicaid
• 14:35
  funds anymore because
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: of the big,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: terrible bill,
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: it is devastating to so many of us.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: But in many ways, it's rural communities that suffer the most.
• 14:43
  That's the thing that's really been eating at me is watching
• 14:46
  the congressmen just
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:48
  when I was watching them vote against their districts and their
• 14:51
  communities because
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: the Medicaid cuts are going to hurt.
• 14:53
  Medicaid cuts and all these health care cuts are going to hurt
• 14:56
  rural places.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Not probably more,
• 14:58
  but like more profoundly because there's going to be less
• 15:01
  alternatives when
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: something closes their door and goes away for all of time.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, that's a shame.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why people don't get crankier about that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they know.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's that they don't know that it's like such a betrayal to just say,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 15:15
  I'm going to go along with the rich guy from New York who's
• 15:18
  taking bribes,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: like lots of bribes.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think they do that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: I live in a pretty red area.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's a lot of mix here.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: People have conversations and they're actually pretty independent.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of them voted for Trump.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: But they didn't vote for Trump because they like Trump.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: They voted for Trump because they wanted something different.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: They sensed that the government wasn't working for them.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: And they thought that Trump was a better alternative.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't make sense in my head.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: But for some reason, that made sense to them.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: But they're starting to see now.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_03: We used to see a lot of feistiness.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm always talking about this kind of stuff.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, people used to say to me, you're just fear mongering.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: You're just trying to scare us.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: No, I am trying to tell you what's coming down the pike.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not hearing that kind of messaging anymore.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: Now I'm hearing people say, what is happening?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Where is this going?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: What does this mean for me?
• 16:06
  And I think once fall rolls around and all of our health
• 16:10
  insurance premiums start
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: to get more expensive because health insurance companies,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: hospital systems,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: they're not dummies.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: They know what's coming.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: So they're all raising their prices.
• 16:18
  We've seen that they've already submitted requests to be able
• 16:22
  to raise their prices.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: So this is coming for all of us.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: Health care is about to get very expensive for all of us.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: And many people are just playing.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: They'll lose their access.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's troubling.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get on to the big story here that had you all fired up.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I got me fired up, too.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: It boggles the mind.
• 16:40
  The Guardian reports that the Trump administration has decided
• 16:43
  to destroy 9.7
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: million worth of contraceptives,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: a stockpile rather than send them abroad to women in need.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: These were pills, IUDs and hormonal implants that...
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're destined for some of the poorest countries in Africa.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the Trump administration does not want to distribute them.
• 17:01
  But instead of handing them over to the Europeans who are like,
• 17:05
  we'll take them.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll take them.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: We'll take them.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: We will use them.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: We will save people's lives with that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: No problem.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're not asking any questions.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: Just do the right thing.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just walk away.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: No big deal.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's literally here already.
• 17:22
  The Trump administration is planning on spending an additional
• 17:24
  $160,000 to incinerate them.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Miles, let's go to Belgium and sneak into the warehouse.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Scoop them up.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Kidding.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Google and Siri and all of it's a joke.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, isn't there a huge party in it?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: It just doesn't make any sense at all,
• 17:40
  especially coming from this government that professes to be the
• 17:45
  government of
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_03: families.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they want us to...
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: To take care of the women, protect women.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not working that way.
• 17:52
  The way you protect women is by making sure they have health
• 17:54
  care and access to
• 17:55
  good quality contraception and maternal care and the hardest
• 17:59
  places to deliver care
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: like Africa.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I get it.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: You have a beef with USA and you want to shut that down.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: I don't agree with that at all.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: But at least give people the birth control.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: At least give them the birth control and the food.
• 18:12
  There was the other stock that they weren't distributing to
• 18:15
  that was already food
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: made in America,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: ready to go that they were going to distribute.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And they put a big halt on that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's been the interruption in PEPFAR.
• 18:24
  I don't even the calculated like amount of like deaths per day
• 18:27
  was something closer
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: to close to 500 on that one.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it just paints this extremely bleak picture of like one,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: like callousness to like life to say human life,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: not a big,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: not a big priority here.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you had this, a good faith argument, and I don't think they do.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they're even trying to make one.
• 18:43
  But if you had a good faith argument that you're going to take
• 18:45
  a step back from
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: USAID's humanitarian role in Africa or other parts of the world,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: at least complete the order.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no, it costs more money to not complete the order.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to cost, what, $10 million?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's $10 million worth of—$9 million worth of birth control.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: And it's going to cost another $200,000 to burn it?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if I could speculate, because this is a podcast.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to do a little speculation.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm going to speculate a little bit.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I did a conspiracy at the top.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: We'll do a speculation in the middle.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to stow away and go to Belgium somewhere in there, too?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay, go.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Donald Trump doesn't know this is happening.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe he reads it in the news.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't care.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: He doesn't give a shit.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: But he is unserious people in a lot of these spots.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But he is stone-cold radicals taking over some gears of government.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we see an F-6 drop off the back of an aircraft carrier,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: we're like,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Pete Hexf,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: you guys.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: A drunk.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: That drunk dropped a plane.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Fine.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I can see why that had happened.
• 19:45
  But it's when you get things that are like so intentionally
• 19:48
  cruel that you know
• 19:50
  that you have some ideological zealot with his hand on some
• 19:54
  lever of government and
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: is using it and is doing something as wild as burning contraception.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that is,
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:02
  that's not the very best people when you have like religious
• 20:05
  zealots or ideological
• 20:06
  zealots starting to populate important bureaucratic functions
• 20:09
  within the federal
• 20:11
  government and in the federal government abroad because we
• 20:13
  don't understand it
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: sitting here in Chicago and Green Bay.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like I tell you,
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: if like we don't understand it,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: the French,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: the British,
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: the Spanish,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: our allies,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: they definitely don't know.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, but those are all the authors of Project 2025.
• 20:29
  I think that it was genius of them to put all of their evil
• 20:32
  heads together and come
• 20:33
  up with this longstanding plan that was very detailed and then
• 20:37
  to use Donald Trump
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: as the figurehead,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: knowing that he drew people in and then connecting those two things.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:45
  the people who put together Project 2025 would never have been
• 20:48
  able to do that
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: without Trump.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Trump, I don't think, has a clue.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know if he reads.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't have a clue what's inside of Project 2025.
• 20:55
  Pete Davidson has a great TikTok where he says Donald Trump
• 20:58
  doesn't read because he
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: wouldn't read at the SNL recorded.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage everyone to go watch it.
• 21:04
  Pete Davidson makes a very good case that Donald Trump is like
• 21:07
  a okay reader at best.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: On the prescription drugs?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: How they're discounted 80%, 90%, 1,800%.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: What?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: Have you seen that?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't math.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't work that way.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: Prescription drug companies are not paying you to take their drugs.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: Not at all.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: But that would be awesome.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Here's your insulin and $300.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Go get a bike.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: They should.
• 21:33
  They should ask her the amount of money they've made the last
• 21:36
  couple of years.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But that's another story.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Our last up is also another head scratcher.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is going to be particularly infuriating for the physicians,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: nurses,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: and other clinicians,
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: licensed clinicians listening to the pod.
• 21:48
  Simone Gold,
• 21:50
  if people remember,
• 21:50
  Simone Gold was of America's Frontline Doctors fame.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: They were like the quote-unquote doctors pushing alternative medicine –
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: for COVID relief.
• 21:59
  Within their ranks,
• 21:59
  it ranged from ivermectin to don't touch the vaccines.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And they were very, very loud.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they were fundraising off that loudness.
• 22:07
  Simone Gold was sending email solicitation to go raise money
• 22:11
  and was going on TV
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: and yelling about orthodox science to gin up conspiracy theories.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And their lists were like a lot of chiropractors.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was like
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Not a lot of MDs.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was a lot of chiropractors.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  Ultimately,
• 22:27
  the medical board of California,
• 22:29
  she got in trouble with the medical board.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: After or before she went to prison for January 6th?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm getting it right,
• 22:37
  I believe she got in trouble with the medical board before she
• 22:40
  went to prison for
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: the misinformation and the conduct.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: In 2023, the board accused Gold of unprofessional conduct.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Relating to her actions during the storming of the U.S.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Capitol...
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So Gold served two full months in not jail,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: prison,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: in federal prison in Miami related to those actions.
• 22:56
  The board eventually finalized its disciplinary action with a
• 22:59
  public reprimand,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: and that was vacated.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't know why.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Good causes were shown.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Good causes.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what that means.
• 23:10
  If anyone is with the California Medical Board wants to give us
• 23:13
  a call and let us
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: know,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: we'll take that call.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's no problem.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be curious to know.
• 23:19
  We'll come back and repeat it on this show if the good causes
• 23:22
  are actually good.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't think the good causes were good, Dr. Lyle.
• 23:25
  I think the good causes were bad and were probably pressure
• 23:28
  from the administration
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: or just trying to not fall on the administration's
• 23:31
  Poor graces because it's sort of premature capitulation on one
• 23:35
  of his allies who
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: raised all sorts of weird money from COVID conspiracies.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it raises the question is like medicine able to police itself.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is California.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about Alabama.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is the Alabama Medical Board.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: This is the California Medical Board.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: If they can't stick to their guns on this, what are they doing?
• 23:53
  The most misinformation leader of the misinformation army
• 23:56
  enlisting all these
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: chiropractors to talk about vaccine,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: vaccine conspiracies,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then goes to federal prison in Miami for,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: the violent attacks on January 6th.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And she has her penalty revoked.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is the state of medical licensure?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: in America right now if this is where we're at.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: This is exhausting.
• 24:19
  I actually care about the people that I take care of and all I
• 24:23
  can think of as
• 24:24
  you're talking about this and all of the lies and the
• 24:27
  misinformation and the people
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: who trusted her,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: all I can think about is these people who died because they believed it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_03: And all of my friends who work in the emergency department,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: I know Dr.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: Davidson talks about this all the time,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: people who would show up sick with COVID who...
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: could have potentially been saved by a vaccine.
• 24:45
  And they want the vaccine then because they realize that
• 24:48
  they're in trouble,
• 24:49
  but it's too late.
• 24:50
  And then they end up dying because they listened to people like
• 24:55
  Simone Gold instead
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: of people who were practicing according to evidence and data.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: As a doctor who really, like I said, can't,
• 25:02
  cares about my patients and wants them to live their most
• 25:06
  meaningful,
• 25:07
  wonderful life.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't understand,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: A,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: how she practices like that,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: and B,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: how the system can support a physician who does that.
• 25:16
  And that's a big part of the reason that I'm involved with the
• 25:18
  Committee to Protect
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: Healthcare Miles,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: and I know that really drives the work that you do,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: is we want to make sure that the doctors that we work with
• 25:25
  are trustworthy and are doing this for the right reasons and
• 25:28
  are using evidence in science.
• 25:29
  And we recognize that science changes and recommendations do
• 25:32
  change over time.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:34
  it's pretty clear in times like pandemics what the science
• 25:38
  tells us and where the
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: truth lies.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it was not where Simone Gold was practicing.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was just scrolling through Simone Gold's tweets and
• 25:49
  So she has a tweet earlier this month where she has filed a
• 25:51
  petition with the FDA
• 25:53
  demanding that hydrochloroquine and ivermectin be made
• 25:58
  available over the counter
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: to treat illnesses such as COVID-19.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: How are we still talking about goddamn ivermectin?
• 26:06
  i mean hasn't everybody figured out 2025 you just gotta go to
• 26:10
  fleet farm and get
• 26:11
  yourself some worm paste and you can just do it i don't know i
• 26:16
  don't get it i don't
• 26:18
  get it like give it up but you know if people are buying into
• 26:22
  it and they're
• 26:22
  actually like literally buying into it with their dollars then
• 26:25
  that's incentive for
• 26:25
  them to keep going how much do i get paid to do this podcast
• 26:28
  miles i'm just
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: wondering zero dollars yeah but
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because I love this.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I really want people to be okay.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that's how doctors should be.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Always do go back.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the ways,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: she's applying the FDA,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: which is in HHS,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: which is now run by RFK.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to look more at it.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: We'll report back on here.
• 26:47
  But I suspect we're headed for a world in which
• 26:49
  hydrochloroquine and ivermectin are
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: going to be available over the counter to treat COVID-19,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: given who's in charge.
• 26:54
  Yeah,
• 26:54
  but vaccines are not going to be covered by insurance because
• 26:57
  that's all been dismantled.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: That is going to be a weird future.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:01
  But the reality is like the only way to ever – the only way to
• 27:05
  understand this
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: stuff and like for it to make sense,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: you can pass it through like the medicine.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Does it make sense?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't make sense.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: You pass it through like a lens of –
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do they believe this stuff?
• 27:15
  You'd be like,
• 27:16
  no,
• 27:16
  actually,
• 27:17
  Bobby Kennedy is a little too smart to believe this stuff,
• 27:18
  I think.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, it really is profit and power.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: When you think about Bobby, he's achieving power and money.
• 27:26
  When you think about Simone Gold,
• 27:28
  she just seems like she's grubbing money,
• 27:30
  you know?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's actually what she's doing.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: This whole thing is a grift.
• 27:33
  And it's just putting a little extra in the bank account and be
• 27:36
  damned whoever
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: takes worm paste and gets sick.
• 27:39
  And people who listen and are harmed as a result of that also
• 27:43
  feel shamed and they
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: don't want to speak up and they don't want to share their stories.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: And then the word doesn't get out.
• 27:49
  So that's how she continues to perpetuate this and make money
• 27:53
  and gain power off of it.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's just so unethical and so very wrong.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Horse paste.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Horse paste for the clout.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Just horse paste for the follows.
• 28:05
  I got to tell you,
• 28:06
  though,
• 28:06
  I've got cats and I give them ivermectin once a month.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: And every time I do, I think of my senator, Ron Johnson.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't we give it a shot?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was his quote, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you give it a shot?
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Try it.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Senator.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Lyra, do you got anything else before we go?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're going to head over to our guest here pretty soon.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:24
  We've talked about a lot of spicy things that really have me
• 28:26
  worked up right now.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the most important thing.
• 28:29
  Sometimes it feels like we can't control things that are
• 28:31
  happening in the world.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: It happens a lot right now.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: But there is one thing that we can control.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: And that is our lives and the people that we surround ourselves with.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that contributes to our physical health, our mental health.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it is what is going to get us through these dark times.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: So to everyone out there.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: Find your people,
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: hang together,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: help each other out,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: mutual aid,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: community,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: protesting,
• 28:53
  whatever it is that makes you feel whole and like you're moving
• 28:56
  forward in this
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: hard,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: hard time.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: We can do this.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to get through this together.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Dr. Lylee.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 29:03
  We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come
• 29:05
  back with Dr.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Jill Gibson,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: former CMO of Planned Parenthood,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Arizona.
• 29:09
  We're going to do a deep dive into Donald Trump walking back
• 29:12
  his promises on IVF.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Today, we are honored to be joined by Dr. Jill Gibson.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 29:18
  Gibson is an independent OBGYN and the former chief medical
• 29:21
  officer of Planned
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Parenthood,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Arizona,
• 29:23
  where she oversaw the medical practice of the affiliate seven
• 29:25
  health centers in the
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: state for many years.
• 29:27
  She was a key figure in the fight to put abortion in the
• 29:30
  Arizona Constitution,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: protecting rights for people throughout the state.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Today,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: due to advocacy from from doctors like Dr.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Gibson,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: abortion is legal in Arizona beyond 15 weeks of pregnancy.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Gibson, welcome to Paging America.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: Where do we find you today?
• 29:42
  Today,
• 29:42
  I'm working at the independent abortion clinic,
• 29:44
  Camelback Family Planning.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: OK, great.
• 29:47
  Thank you for taking a minute out of your busy day to talk
• 29:50
  about some relevant and recent news.
• 29:53
  So maybe to tee up our conversation,
• 29:55
  I can share a little headline from The Washington Post.
• 29:58
  So in October 2024,
• 30:00
  Trump called himself the father of IVF,
• 30:03
  an absurd self-title.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: He did that during a Fox News town hall.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: But now that he's in office,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: he appears to have very little interest in helping future parents get IVF
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: treatments.
• 30:13
  The Washington Post reports that more than six months into the
• 30:15
  second term,
• 30:16
  the Trump administration has not publicly proposed new federal
• 30:19
  subsidies to make
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: IVF free or more affordable.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: In addition,
• 30:22
  the White House officials are backing away from proposals
• 30:24
  discussed internally to
• 30:26
  mandate IVF coverage for the roughly 50 million people on the
• 30:29
  Obamacare exchanges.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: IVF is expensive in this country, even if you have insurance.
• 30:34
  I was reading just before this,
• 30:35
  it can cost up to $25,000,
• 30:38
  $30,000 out of pocket per round.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you see as the harm that this causes,
• 30:43
  sort of putting this hope out in the world and then taking so
• 30:46
  little to no action?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:48
  And I want to even emphasize that that initial figure that you
• 30:50
  put out there is for
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: maybe one round,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: but just to remind the audience that
• 30:54
  many people will require multiple rounds of IVF treatment in
• 30:57
  order to have success.
• 30:59
  And I think when I heard the news that Trump was calling
• 31:02
  himself this father of IVF
• 31:03
  and was really going out there saying that he's supporting
• 31:06
  families and was going
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: to really work hard to make this federally funded,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: and if it wasn't going to be federally funded,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: that he would mandate insurance companies to cover it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: I personally thought, what a joke.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's absolutely no way that this is actually going to happen.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I do really think that a lot of the lay population, people who
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: were really holding on to that hope,
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: did have some faith that this was going to actually be a reality.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think that we doctors,
• 31:29
  especially those of us who have been in the reproductive health
• 31:32
  world over the past
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: decade,
• 31:34
  did realize that this was never going to be a reality because
• 31:37
  we've seen that
• 31:38
  Trump and his administration and his cronies have done nothing
• 31:41
  to build any kind of
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: infrastructure to support families.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with that.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of,
• 31:47
  I started digging around because I thought this doesn't seem
• 31:49
  like this could be a
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: real promise.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: There actually is a couple of mechanisms where they could do it.
• 31:54
  So it's not like they were like promised it and it was always
• 31:58
  going to be impossible.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 31:59
  Officials at the White House weighed requiring IVF to be
• 32:02
  considered as an essential
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: health benefit under the Affordable Care Act,
• 32:05
  which would require insurance in the marketplace to cover it
• 32:08
  for some people who
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: receive or who are sort of covered under Obamacare.
• 32:11
  And that is actually an act that is supported by Senators
• 32:15
  Duckworth,
• 32:15
  Underwood and Cory Booker.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: So there's some Democrats who support that.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: But it sounds like when it came up in the administration,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: it like pretty quickly ran into like the free market think tank buzzsaw.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: of like, no, no, we can't do this.
• 32:29
  It feels like Donald Trump's using reproductive rights as a
• 32:33
  bargaining chip again.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's kind of putting it out there in order to gain favor,
• 32:37
  but he's not really willing to follow through on it in any
• 32:40
  particular way.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: What do you see as maybe their next steps?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: If they were being honest about what they wanted to do,
• 32:46
  what could they do that would provide relief to folks who are
• 32:49
  trying to build
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: families?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:50
  So I think that basically there has to be sort of a movement
• 32:55
  away from this carving
• 32:57
  or piecing out of reproductive health care as if it's not part
• 33:02
  and parcel of health
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: care as a whole.
• 33:04
  All parts of reproductive health care are essential for
• 33:07
  comprehensive care,
• 33:08
  right?
• 33:08
  And comprehensive health care is reproductive health care is
• 33:12
  healthy families and
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: communities and a healthy country.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I wish that the administration would stop looking at
• 33:19
  carving out little pieces of this puzzle when really everything
• 33:23
  is essential for
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: the puzzle to make sense.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to look at the components of reproductive health care,
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: abortion access,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: contraception access,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: and access to fertility treatments equally,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 33:36
  We can't say that these are exceptions to the health care that
• 33:39
  everyone else
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: deserves to get and should have.
• 33:42
  And once we have sort of a change in our ideology and a change
• 33:46
  in the way that
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: we're thinking about this,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: then we can try and level the playing field.
• 33:50
  And they really can't take exception to excluding these things
• 33:53
  because there is no exception.
• 33:54
  We all are in agreement that this is part and parcel of
• 33:57
  essential health care.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: and it seems like they are moving away,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: not moving in that direction,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: that they're moving in the opposite direction.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, him promising that there would be no national abortion ban.
• 34:09
  And then what we see with like creating functional medical
• 34:12
  deserts through the big
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: bill in certain places,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: but then also the suspicions that
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of us have,
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: some others have,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: that Robert Kennedy could prompt FDA action restricting mifepristone.
• 34:23
  I'm wondering if you could speak to that,
• 34:25
  what your sort of worries are on that front.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 34:28
  and it was interesting to think of Trump trying to curry any
• 34:31
  kind of favor,
• 34:32
  thinking that he has anything in his pocket that he can offer
• 34:35
  because he was the
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: one who is,
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: proudly said that he overturned Roe,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so the fact that
• 34:41
  he is proudly stating that he has diminished reproductive
• 34:44
  rights to such an
• 34:45
  astounding degree and now is trying to flip that and saying
• 34:48
  that he's this champion
• 34:50
  for reproductive rights and in another sort of arena just falls
• 34:54
  completely flat for
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: me.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I have no trust, right?
• 34:56
  I have no trust that he is going to block anyone in his
• 34:59
  administration's efforts to
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: further decimate our access to care.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think that we should be really worried.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: We no longer can have our
• 35:09
  you know,
• 35:09
  our heads in the sand and think that this isn't going to
• 35:11
  happen.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: They will continue to chip away at access to reproductive health care,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: particularly abortion services,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: particularly through,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: I believe,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: medication abortions,
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: because that's sort of the most tangible thing that they can grasp onto.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: And they've
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: think that they have avenues to pursue that.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very concerned about that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: If we don't take this threat seriously,
• 35:30
  and we don't stand up and require our legislators and our
• 35:34
  Congress people to
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: basically stand up to these reproductive bullies,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: we are going to be in serious trouble,
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: more trouble than we are already in,
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: which seems at times impossible to even imagine.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: More than 50% of abortion services now,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: probably up to 60-65%,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: are achieved through medication abortion.
• 35:52
  And that medication abortion has actually been sort of a
• 35:55
  leveling of the playing
• 35:56
  field in terms of access across the country now that we've
• 35:59
  really stratified which
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: regions of the country get access to abortion.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Losing medication abortion would be catastrophic for this country.
• 36:08
  The thing that that brings up for me is that all the work that
• 36:10
  people did in
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Arizona to put abortion access in the Constitution,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: including medication abortion,
• 36:15
  that you could have some sort of very atypical administrative
• 36:18
  procedure at the FDA
• 36:20
  or have this thing wind through the courts where you could claw
• 36:22
  back rights that
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: were just so recently enshrined in the Arizona Constitution.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that's so maddening about that is seeing Trump,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: and obviously he lies all the time,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: but he's like on television saying,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: we're going to let the states decide.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Arizona so thoroughly decided.
• 36:39
  And then to use the power of like an administrative tactic to
• 36:43
  try to claw back that
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: decision boils my blood,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: honestly.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's so hypocrisy.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like the hypocrisy is just it's mind boggling.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: It really is.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 36:56
  what I'd hope for folks that listen to this podcast and are a
• 36:59
  part of whether it's
• 37:00
  sort of physician activist circles who are contemplating other
• 37:03
  sort of ballot
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: initiatives or other fights,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: that it doesn't have a sort of a dampening effect on people's activism,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: that they keep up the good work that they're doing.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe to switch gears here a little bit,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Gibson,
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: there is a report out this morning from The New York Times that the Trump
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: administration plans to burn contraceptives,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: a contraceptive stockpile.
• 37:22
  And the Europeans are kind of freaking out about it because
• 37:25
  it's a stockpile that's
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: on French soil.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: The U.S.
• 37:27
  government intends to incinerate 9.7 million and already
• 37:29
  purchased birth control.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, not French oil, in Belgium after USID shut down.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: Destruction may have already started.
• 37:36
  There's a little bit of like fog of war where people are having
• 37:38
  trouble getting
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: information out of the administration.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: The stockpile includes pills,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: IUDs,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: and hormonal implants,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: and they were destined for the poorest countries in Africa.
• 37:47
  It sounds like it also costs $160,000 to burn a stockpile or
• 37:52
  remove the stockpile
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: after it was already purchased,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: which would be more expensive than distribution.
• 37:57
  I wonder if you could give your thoughts on sort of that
• 37:59
  development on the
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: international side of this conversation.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: That is incredibly upsetting news to hear this morning.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: The first thought that comes to my mind is just how incredibly cruel,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: how incredibly short-sighted,
• 38:11
  how incredibly demonstrative of really the hatred that this
• 38:16
  administration has
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: towards reproductive rights and towards politics.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: frankly, women.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: I see in my health centers every day,
• 38:24
  lots of women and people who need reproductive contraceptive
• 38:28
  needs who cannot get
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: the contraceptives that they need.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's right here in the United States of America.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I see the consequences in their lives.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I see multiple unplanned pregnancies.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I see people struggling to get ahead.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: I see moms who are making decisions about
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: having paying for an abortion versus paying rent.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is like a very real reality that I see day in and day out.
• 38:50
  I cannot even imagine the impact that all of that free
• 38:54
  contraceptive would have in
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: a much poorer and much less resource intense country.
• 39:00
  So the only thing that I can think of is just how cruel,
• 39:03
  how cruel can we possibly be?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see if I can pull up there.
• 39:07
  I think there was a quote by the USAD procurement advisor
• 39:10
  suggested that the
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: stockpile would prevent – this is a very clear number,
• 39:15
  so obviously they're doing some estimations – 360,000
• 39:17
  unintended pregnancies and
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: possibly up to 700 maternal deaths.
• 39:23
  And so that also tells me that they just don't have any
• 39:26
  understanding of the
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: importance of contraceptive in the lives of women.
• 39:31
  They don't understand how preventing pregnancy actually brings
• 39:34
  up entire societies
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: and cultures and communities.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 39:40
  it's kind of like going back to the leveling of not parceling
• 39:43
  out parts of
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: reproductive health care.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: They just don't have any basic understanding of how these
• 39:48
  factors impact how our society and societies around the world
• 39:51
  and cultures around
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: the world and communities around the world grow and thrive.
• 39:55
  And it's similar to the fact that Trump is saying that he
• 39:58
  supports growing families.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: He's built no infrastructure to support families.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: So by saying, oh, I'm going to give a family $5,000 for having a child.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: What about paid parental leave?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: What about affordable childcare?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: What about lactation service support?
• 40:12
  What about the fact that we now have labor and delivery units
• 40:15
  that are closing all
• 40:16
  across the country because they're not being staffed by
• 40:19
  obstetrician gynecologists?
• 40:21
  And how are you going to recruit obstetrician gynecologists to
• 40:24
  this specialty when
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: you've now gone and told us...
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Actually,
• 40:28
  you're not going to be able to train the skills that you need
• 40:30
  because in many
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: states you can't even perform that procedure.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then once you're in the specialty,
• 40:37
  we're going to say that there are certain things here that
• 40:39
  you're not allowed to do
• 40:39
  either because you can't get insurance coverage for it or
• 40:42
  because you've literally
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: threatened me with jail time if I perform this,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: this procedure or this act,
• 40:47
  which I know because of scientific evidence and study and
• 40:51
  taking care of patients
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_02: is essential health care.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all just devastating.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I really do think that the American people don't want these policies.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: We've shown that, right?
• 41:01
  All these ballot initiatives,
• 41:03
  we've always had at least a majority of support.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: And here in Arizona, we had more than 60% support.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_02: So this isn't actually what the people want.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's really,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're beholden to tell our congresspeople,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: you have to stand up and put a stop to this.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is not in our best interest.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good point.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about this on this podcast all the time.
• 41:25
  The rubber is really going to meet the road at the
• 41:26
  congressional level in this next
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: election cycle.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so we got to pay attention to it really closely.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Jill Gibson,
• 41:32
  is there anything else you'd want to sort of share with our
• 41:34
  audience before we go
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: today?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think just a reference back to the point that you were saying,
• 41:38
  like that it can be discouraging to see that after we've fought
• 41:42
  so hard and had
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: such a victory here in Arizona,
• 41:45
  that there is the possibility that despite Trump saying that
• 41:48
  abortion in particular
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: is going to be a state level decision.
• 41:54
  I still think that because we had such a mandate at the level
• 41:58
  of our proposition,
• 41:59
  I still really do believe that people here will stand up for
• 42:03
  what's right.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: And despite,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: if federal things are coming down the pipe that we recognize are,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: this is not what you said,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: that we will.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: We will.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: vote out those legislators that are not willing to stand up and say,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: this goes absolutely contrary to what you already promised us.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the other point that I wanted to just discuss briefly was one of my
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: co-residents,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: someone I trained with in residency at San Diego,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_02: is a fertility specialist.
• 42:25
  And we were having a conversation as I was thinking about
• 42:28
  preparing for this podcast.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: this interview today.
• 42:30
  And he made a really interesting point talking about that pay
• 42:35
  and ability to pay is
• 42:36
  really probably just the number one sort of determining factor
• 42:40
  in where he's
• 42:41
  directing his patients in terms of how much they can do to try
• 42:45
  and grow their
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: families.
• 42:46
  And just anecdotally,
• 42:47
  two of my OBGYN colleagues currently are undergoing fertility
• 42:50
  treatments.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: One of them
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: has decided that they're not going to be able to afford IVF,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: and the other has limited access to IVF,
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: so maybe one or two cycles.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And how sad that is,
• 42:59
  even for this really privileged group of educated people who
• 43:03
  have money and
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: resources at their disposal,
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: it's still not an available option to them.
• 43:08
  But this friend of mine who works in the Bay Area noted that
• 43:12
  this sort of service
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: is going to just become more boutique,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: more for the privileged few,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: more concierge,
• 43:18
  because lots of companies now are going to be offering this as
• 43:22
  part of sort of
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: their compensation package.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, come work for us.
• 43:26
  Our programs are going to include insurance coverage for
• 43:28
  fertility services and how
• 43:30
  that's just going to basically further make this hierarchy for
• 43:34
  who gets the
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: privilege of having a family,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: which is,
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: a sad state that none of us want to see.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, if this is happening state by state or, you
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know, blue region by blue region.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_02: Again,
• 43:46
  we're just going to have a further diversification of areas and
• 43:50
  regions in the
• 43:50
  country where people have access to basic health care and other
• 43:53
  people don't.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: No one wants that.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a pretty dystopian outlook.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: No one wants that.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: that you'd have sort of high-end IVF services in well-being,
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: either corporate jobs or other type of jobs,
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: and it would be sort of inaccessible to so many others,
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: particularly with the president making big promises that he can't keep.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, okay.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Dr. Gibson, thank you so much for joining us.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can leave it there.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to chatting down the road.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks so much for being here.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: That was a great conversation with Dr. Jill Gibson.
• 44:24
  A big thank you to her for joining us and helping us understand
• 44:28
  the ramifications
• 44:29
  of the walk back a little bit more and a powerful leader in the
• 44:32
  fight for rights in
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Arizona and beyond.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I was so glad she could join us.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: powerful leaders and consolidating power and organizing.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: Miles,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: I am so impressed with our physician leaders,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: with the Committee to Protect Healthcare,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: the people who step up and use their voices,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: because it's not easy for us as doctors.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: We are not trained to talk to the public.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: We're often afraid,
• 44:54
  even though we have these conversations with our patients all
• 44:56
  the time in the exam
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: room,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: it's really different to do it big like this.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: But our members know how to do it,
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: and they do it really well,
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: and they do it for all the right reasons.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 45:07
  I was actually on the phone with some folks who were interested
• 45:11
  in doing a bit more
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: organizing out on the East Coast right before we started recording.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: I will say,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: the phone calls on,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: I want to help,
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to organize,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I want to raise money,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: I want to fight back,
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want to protest,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is,
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: they've been coming faster.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: People are fired up.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the medical community,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: and specifically doctors,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: because they don't have a union like the nurses do,
• 45:32
  getting organized and getting out in the world and being able
• 45:34
  to make a difference
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: is pretty urgent,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: pretty important these days.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: We went into this.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't go into this to make money.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: We doctors went into this to take care of our patients.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: As it has gotten harder and harder for that to happen,
• 45:47
  I think we have had to find other ways to be able to take care
• 45:51
  of our patients and
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: our communities.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_03: And this is just one of many ways.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:55
  I just,
• 45:55
  because I like to tease the doctors a little bit,
• 45:57
  even while we're working together.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the doctors run into make money.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is true.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: That is true.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the physicians that work with us did not, though.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely true.
• 46:07
  There are a lot easier ways to make money than to go through
• 46:10
  medical school and
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: residency and all of that.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: That seems like the truth.
• 46:14
  I actually listened to a podcast the other day that was like
• 46:16
  medical school.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a cult?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: That was the name of it.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I liked it.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: I liked it a lot.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: A great show.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to go ahead and read us out.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode was written by Chris Savage and me, Miles Baker.
• 46:26
  It was produced by Amelia Dillenschneider,
• 46:28
  Aslan Ibrahim,
• 46:29
  and Joel Bryson.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Music is by Annette Somerset at Duneflower Productions.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed today's show,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: please subscribe and leave us a rating on YouTube,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Spotify,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Apple Podcasts,
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: or wherever you listen.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Your support helps others discover the podcast.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: And physicians,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: if you are interested in the organizing that Dr.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Lylee and I were just talking about,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: you can log on to www.committeetoprotect.org.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Dr. Lylee, thanks so much for guest hosting today.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's always a delight to have you on the show.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: It is always a blast with you, Miles.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, everyone.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for tuning in.