Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Holding Love and Truth at the Same Time: Sexuality, Faith & Divorce — Evan Stewart
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (01:06) Evan Stewart, my therapist friend. How are you? Evan (01:11) Done well. Thanks for having me. Brynne Erickson (01:13) Yeah, I'm so happy to have you. I always love having professionals on to help us give us some tools and insights into helping areas of our life. And I'm so grateful that you were willing to come on. Not only do I know Evan as a therapist, but he's also a high school friend of mine. So this is gonna Evan (01:32) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (01:32) be really fun. And I reached out to him specifically about navigating identity. and Evan. Suggested that we talk about navigating sexuality in conjunction with beliefs, specifically religious beliefs, and stepping into navigating divorce as well. As these are both areas that you have personally had experience in, not only for yourself, but also in your professional life too, I'm assuming. Evan (02:01) Yeah, I mean I I'm still married. The divorce part is more speaking to like Brynne Erickson (02:05) Yes. Evan (02:06) yeah, like my parents, and Brynne Erickson (02:08) Mm-hmm. Evan (02:09) professionally helping people navigate divorce, but yeah, definitely Brynne Erickson (02:14) Okay. Evan (02:14) about the sexuality and navigating religion. Brynne Erickson (02:18) Awesome. And we'll dive into that into a second, but a little bit about you. How long have you been a therapist for? Evan (02:24) let's see, I'm coming up on ten years. Brynne Erickson (02:26) That's a good amount of time. Evan (02:28) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (02:30) Do you still like it? Evan (02:31) I do, yes. I think that there's a lot of really wonderful, meaningful breakthroughs that I get to be part of in helping people. there definitely are moments of heaviness that make me question, you know, how long can I do this for? But then when I have those breakthroughs with people, it just kind of makes up for all of those little doubts. Brynne Erickson (02:54) Mm-hmm. I would imagine. Why did you choose therapy and counseling? Evan (02:59) I think I always knew I wanted to do something that was meaningful to me. I mean out of high school, you know, there was going on the mission, which was a great experience, mixed experience. Brynne Erickson (03:13) Mm. Evan (03:14) but then worked some local jobs in Ogden, but still didn't really quite feel like I was making that difference that I wanted to. so then also I was meeting my wife. So she was really, really encouraging of me to to pursue something in the you know health services field. and so I remember I I took a intro to to marriage and family therapy class at Weber State. and it just opened my eyes to kind of the world, the realm of therapy and yeah, took it from there. Brynne Erickson (03:51) Cool. And decade later here you are. Evan (03:54) Here I am. Brynne Erickson (03:54) Yeah, we had got to catch up last summer at a local theme park and we only had like 15 minutes to talk. But in that exchange, you had mentioned your discovery of being bisexual. And I had talked about my brother coming out as gay. And I don't even remember how we got to that topic so quickly, but we did. And I think it's so important that we bring this up. Because you've navigated and wrestled with sexuality and religion yourself, not only just assisting others through this. Evan (04:29) Exactly. I think I think it was so easy to like and and quick to open up to it because you had mentioned this podcast. and Brynne Erickson (04:38) Mm. Evan (04:38) I just thought it was a really cool, cool idea what you're doing. And it just kind of I felt like it there was a natural segue, like, hey, yeah, this has been a little bit of my experience. So it was great catching up for sure. Brynne Erickson (04:52) It was. And I'm so grateful that you were willing to share that part of your life's journey. I mean, we graduated 20 years ago. We had our reunion just this year. Evan (05:01) Right, we just celebrated the reunion. Brynne Erickson (05:03) We did. And this was last summer that we ran into each other. So it'd been 19 years since we'd seen each other. So in a 15 minute exchange to dive into like some big meaningful changes in our lives was pretty special. At Evan (05:15) At a theme park. Brynne Erickson (05:16) a theme park with all of our kids in the chaos. It was so great. But like That happens to me all the time these days, especially because I'm willing to be vulnerable with people and like tell them. Like when people are like, How's it going? I'm like, Do you want superficial how is it going? Or do you want like really how it's going? And most of the time I step into how it's really going, whether they wanted it or not. And it's funny the ones that are there for it and the other ones are like, okay. Like they don't know how to handle the real Talk and but it has served me so well for the people that do want that and reciprocate it. And the next thing I know, we're talking about all the hard and heavy and the beautiful and light in our lives. And then we walk away like hugging and having like exchanging phone numbers and stuff. And it's amazing what the willingness to be honest and vulnerable, how quickly that can create connection in relationships. Evan (06:17) Yeah, I'm here for it. Brynne Erickson (06:18) Yeah, that's your job. People pay you to do that. It's pretty amazing. Okay, Evan (06:21) That's that's true. There is that part as well. Brynne Erickson (06:25) well then let's dive into it. So, Evan, what does it actually mean to be bisexual? Evan (06:32) So I think it's important to separate a few things that people often conflate. because I think that there's like your orientation, Brynne Erickson (06:43) Okay. Evan (06:43) right, or like your your experience of attraction towards someone. then there's the behavior, right? What what someone actually does or whom they have a relationship with. And then there's also like commitment, the agreements, choices that. you've made within a relationship. And so for me, like being bisexual, yes, I have that attraction to both women and men. but like I'm in a straight marriage. You know, I've been Brynne Erickson (07:12) Mm. Evan (07:12) married to my wife for 13 years now. and that that commitment I have to her doesn't change my sexual orientation, doesn't change the actions that I have of of wanting to be in that committed relationship, if that makes sense. Brynne Erickson (07:30) Yeah, that's very helpful. Evan (07:30) So that's that's what it means to me to be sexu it's to be bisexual. Like that's that's a it's a part of who I am, but there's also these other parts, obviously, of of who I am. Brynne Erickson (07:42) How does that same breakdown that you just explained in relation to bisexual correlate with all the other names or orientations? I honestly am not sure. Like this is this is good information for me too. But when we say the phrase of L B G T Q I A plus, How does that spectrum fall into the breakdown that you just explained to me? Does that make sense? Evan (08:14) Yeah, I mean I was thinking more like specifically of like my experience and it's been helpful for me to kind of break it down into that way. But I imagine like with all the different orientations that there's a level of that of this is this is how like this is who I am, this is an important part of what makes me me. but then Brynne Erickson (08:35) Mm. Evan (08:35) I also like I'm trying to live in alignment with Yeah, I want I want my actions to reflect what I value and and who I consider myself to be and who I'm attracted to. Brynne Erickson (08:49) Yeah, I love that. Evan (08:50) I don't know if that I don't know if that answers your question. Brynne Erickson (08:52) yeah. At the end of the day I think that's truly what's most important. Like what do I value and how do I live my life in accordance to my values? Yeah, it's so good. So when and how did you actually discover that you were bisexual? Evan (09:06) I think I first noticed I was into girls and boys at a pretty young age. I don't think I knew I mean I didn't know it's it's kind of tricky to explain. I didn't I didn't really know what that was. I I didn't Brynne Erickson (09:27) Mm-hmm. Evan (09:28) also I also didn't really feel like they I had room to really understand or explore what it meant. At that time, there was religious influence of this is the path that you're on, and don't question question things, you know, these these are the Brynne Erickson (09:46) Mm. Evan (09:47) the things that you're supposed to do. You're supposed to go do this and marry this person and whatnot. So, but it was it was pretty pretty early on. Like I even remember like I would always Like I'd hang out a ton with like my female cousins, like we would do like skits and plays and I'd I had a really high pitched voice. And I don't know, like I just I I I noticed that I wasn't the same as other boys. but like I was also just doing my thing. So now that I'm now that I'm older, I feel like I'm Brynne Erickson (10:25) Yeah. Evan (10:29) able to understand more of you know, that part of of me and have had time to be able to time and safety to be able to understand that. Brynne Erickson (10:41) I love that. And giving yourself permission to think about that and like what does this mean for me now that I'm aware? Evan (10:50) Yeah, exactly. Brynne Erickson (10:52) what has been difficult about this? If anything? Evan (10:57) let me think about that for a sec. So I think Being able to like put a name to what fits my experience, it actually has been really freeing. It's it's helped me understand myself a lot better. I given myself permission to not, you know, fit the mold of how I should have been or how I should be. but allowing myself to I you know and people talk about like coming out of the closet or whatever, like how freeing that can be. kind of a similar experience to that. but I think one thing that's been difficult and I I I think I've worked through a lot of it, but I think I was I've only really shared shared that I'm bisexual with I mean up until now. I haven't really shared that with anyone besides like family or really close friends. and I mean, we're pretty close friends after Brynne Erickson (11:57) Good. Evan (11:59) not speaking for like nineteen years. Brynne Erickson (12:03) I know, I love it though. It's so good. Evan (12:06) No, it's awesome. but I think that there was a fear that like if if someone knew this about me, like, especially like men, would they think that I'm attracted to them? You know, that like the does this change our Brynne Erickson (12:18) Yeah. Evan (12:19) relationship now when really like that's not really my experience, right? Like it's, you know, I've got boundaries, I've I've got this understanding for myself that I've come to to learn and doesn't really have anything to do with with that. And so I think that was just like an insecurity, a a fear that I that I had that I worked through. So that was that was a little tricky to to navigate. Brynne Erickson (13:29) I'm just curious what's been helpful as you've navigated this, your bisexuality in your marriage, in a straight marriage. Evan (13:37) Yeah, so I I love that question. and I'll try not to get emotional. so I think Brynne Erickson (13:44) It's okay if you do. Evan (13:45) I think a big part of it is the love and support from my wife. So I think from the beginning of our relationship, she has just been so accepting, of my flaws and like I don't know, like just this the her having my back provided me a a space to be able to explore explore that. Cause it actually wasn't until shortly after being married that I even felt like bisexual fit my experience Brynne Erickson (14:19) Hm. Okay. Evan (14:21) with my identity. And I feel like it was because a large a large part of that was because of her loving and accepting influence. Brynne Erickson (14:30) At what point were you willing to say it out loud to your wife? Evan (14:34) I think it was pretty pretty quick after like I I remember I I was on I was just driving around a neighborhood. I don't even know what I was doing, Brynne Erickson (14:42) Okay. Evan (14:43) but just kind of sifting through a lot of my thoughts, my emotions. And I was like, Yeah, I think that that fits. And I actually went home I think that shortly after that drive and just told her, I was like, Yeah. And she's like, hmm, cool. Not in like a flippant, like casual Brynne Erickson (15:05) Yeah. Evan (15:05) way, but it just it I share that because it just Brynne Erickson (15:07) This doesn't change anything. Evan (15:10) right. Exactly. Like she just she she just had my back. So and still has my Brynne Erickson (15:17) I love that. Evan (15:17) back. Like I I think that she's also and I don't want to speak for her, but I think that she she takes a lot of pride in in that part of who I am. Like she just she loves that I've been open and accepting of that myself. And i I think it actually has brought us closer together because of it. So Brynne Erickson (15:39) Again, that honesty, right? Like being able to be who you believe you were meant to be and she allowing you to do that and you allowing her to do that, like it doesn't always pan out the way we want. Like some and this'll come in probably with our divorce talk, but sometimes I would imagine that the best thing to allow ourselves to be true and honest is not to be together anymore. So that might be a segue that we'll go into that in a little bit, but Evan (16:08) Yeah, for sure. Brynne Erickson (16:09) Just some thoughts that I had in the moment. Evan (16:12) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it definitely fits. Brynne Erickson (16:14) Okay. Okay. So thank you so much for the background on your personal experience. That was incredibly helpful and beautiful. So what have you learned about navigating sexuality and honoring religious beliefs? Evan (16:29) Great question. So I think I think what I want to throw out there is I do want to make sure it's clear that like my experience isn't like a catch-all that like what I say, you know, as my experience isn't necessarily an experience someone else is having. and like you you mentioned like it having those open, honest conversations, being real about things sometimes doesn't pan out the way that we Brynne Erickson (16:56) Mm-hmm. Evan (16:57) anticipate. so so for me, going back to your question though, something that's really helped me is trying to find a way where I guess the best way to explain it. So I remember like learning about this or reading this article by Ta Ty Mansfield, and he talks about holding the tension of love and truth. and so it is coming from specifically. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints background. but it has often felt like for me like growing up, I had to stick to truth. this is what I'm being taught, this is what I understand, this is the path that I'm supposed to be on. and so when it comes to like supporting the LGBTQA plus community, not feeling like I can really show that love that I would want to. and especially being part of that community. And so it felt like it had to be truth or love in some ways. And I just have always, that's just irked me. Like I had I do not like that. You know, and then on the flip end, you you know, do I sh just show love and I've got to accept everyone and and abandon what my convictions are. and so for me it's it's been trying to find a way where I can hold both together, where I can I can balance truth, you know, and and what I define truth as is are are my personal religious convictions while also holding that love for everyone, you know, and that they don't have to be mutually exclusive. So that's been that's been like one of the most like that stands out to me as one of the things that have helped helped me the most. Brynne Erickson (18:44) Yeah, I love that. It's it's been interesting to be in this space as a member of the LDS Church because if you are married to the same sex, then you can't participate in the church fully. but there's also an admonition to love. and include, even if you believe differently. And that's just, yeah, that's been an interesting one to navigate, but it has been helpful for me too, to be like, okay, I don't agree with that, but there also is so much that I do agree with and that I find true and beautiful and helpful. So does that mean I have to let go of all of it in order to support one and not the other. And that was a hard that polarity was really hard to come to a middle of. And that was a huge preface of me starting this podcast was like, I feel like I can't stay if I have to do things the same way as I've always done because now I see things a different way. But I also want to stay. So what would that look like? And that's been this journey that I've been on. And it's been cool and it's mine. Again, it like your journey has been yours and your conclusions have been yours and mine have been mine and other people choose differently. And that's okay. But that's hard for people Evan (20:20) Right, I love that. And Brynne Erickson (20:21) to see sometimes, right? Like it really is okay that your path looks different than mine. Evan (20:27) Exactly. Right. Well I think I yeah, I grew up I felt like it was it was pretty black and white, right? When Brynne Erickson (20:34) Yeah. Evan (20:35) there really is a huge amount of gray. And that's okay. There's something amazing about recognizing the gray. Brynne Erickson (20:44) Yeah, I found it truly empowering. And not only have I has it been so cool to let me, but it also lets me let everyone else like do what they want to do. And how can I love and support them where they are, even if it's not for me? Right. Like I think that's the whole point. When I took a step back and looked at all of the billions of people in the world, and I was like, what is the point? Like, are we supposed to just all magically come to the same conclusion of something? I was like, what would that even look like if we all agreed on the same thing? the billions of people in this world. I was like, I don't even think it's possible. And so then I was like, if it's not even possible, what does that mean? You know? And so I just realized like, I think it just means seriously, Evan (21:29) An existential crisis a little bit. Brynne Erickson (21:32) yes. And that's when I concluded, I was like, you know what? I don't need to know why or what. I just have faith and trust that it's all gonna be okay. And like that was Evan (21:41) Right. Brynne Erickson (21:41) enough. And it was so crazy how simple that one thought is, but it has like liberated me and everyone else too. Evan (21:51) Right. Even you saying that, like I noticed like my body just like just relax. That it's just like Brynne Erickson (21:57) Hm. And I believe it. Evan (22:00) right. Like it just that makes sense to me. Brynne Erickson (22:05) Cool. Good. Well at least there's one more person on my team that makes me happy. Evan (22:09) Well I mean the Well, I mean what you were saying earlier, like everyone kind of being the same, agreeing on the same things, that kind of sounds a little bit like Lucifer's plan. Right? Where it's just we all Brynne Erickson (22:22) Yeah. Evan (22:22) conform and we can't have those unique experiences. Brynne Erickson (22:29) Right, right, yeah. so in relation to supporting our LGBTQ A plus brothers and sisters, what does it mean to be a fence sitter? I know you brought that up when I was like, What do you think we could talk about in this podcast? And you had mentioned sitting on the fence. So what does that mean? And is it okay to be on the fence? Is there a fence in the first place? Evan (22:57) Right, yeah. So I I think it does go back to what I was saying about holding like to your religious convictions while also showing that love for everyone. Right. Of of I again it felt like I had to be on one side of that fence or the other. so I think it I think it it's it's kind of changed over over time. So like it was helpful. It definitely served me to see myself on the fence and it being okay, giving myself permission to be on the fence, that I can still hold a space where like I can honor the the commitments, the covenants I've made, while also like showing love and support, right? Because everyone is deserving of love, safety, respect, belonging. And and so can I can I can I sit there and can I can I be comfortable there on on the fence. and that that was very freeing, very liberating, where I yeah, I didn't feel like I had to choose, right? Where I'm on this side or the other side. It it felt like I could really take the time to to figure out what I personally valued, how that aligned with my spiritual values, while also wanting to honor That I I love everyone and I want them to to make sure that they know that. That I don't have to have conditions upon that. because I think anytime we put a condition upon it, it just it it feels hollow. It doesn't feel authentic. And that's one of my core values is to to be authentic or genuine and real with people. so as far as like there not needing to be a fence Brynne Erickson (24:47) Yeah. Evan (24:47) there in the first place. I think that's kind of been more of a a recent reflection where I really don't know. I mean, I I do know that like within the LDS church, obviously there are standards, you know, there's things that are considered, you know, if I believe, if I live this way, qualifies me to be worthy to enter the temple, right? And to Brynne Erickson (25:11) Mm-hmm. Evan (25:12) honor those temple Covenants. However, I think that I don't need there to be a fence in order to approach relationships, that I can have open dialogue, I can have safe dialogue, we can agree to disagree, we can tolerate each other, we can beyond just tolerating though, right? Like it's also Like I want to genuinely listen and hear what your experience has been. You know, tell me what has been hard. Tell me what's been meaningful. Tell me what's been that's brought you joy, right? Like there's there's Brynne Erickson (25:50) Mm-hmm. Evan (25:51) so much to all of this where even just being able to hold a space for people is is what I mean by not having that fence in the first place. Right. Like I kind of even like imagine, like I'm very visual person, so I can imagine like say there's this fence, but then there's this this opening where like we can just walk back and forth. You know, we you can come sit over here, I can come sit over there and and we can just just visit, you know. That sounds kind of cheesy when I say it that way, but Brynne Erickson (26:22) I actually love that. I love it though. Because I'm like visualizing the fent the fence, right? And there's two sides. Like there's this side and that side, and there's the fence. But I actually love that. Like there's this opening, or maybe no fence at all. And you just happen to be hanging out in the middle of the two groups. Like, I think that's a beautiful visual. And you really can just go back and forth. And today I'm with. I'm hanging out with these guys and I'm trying to understand what they're thinking and feeling. But I actually live over here and I'm just visiting today, you know? But I'm right over here if you need me and I can just walk back and forth. It's not this big obstacle to climb over the fence to get to where you are. So I actually I I really love that. I think that's beautiful. Evan (27:14) Well, and I I think the visual helps me too because I I do think there's been a contrast with where I've lived where there have been actual literal fences and Brynne Erickson (27:23) Yes. Evan (27:24) just kind of neighbors even being closed off from each other. Whereas now, like there's not really any fences with our neighbors, you know, in our neighborhood. You know, we're in a cul-de-sac and like Brynne Erickson (27:34) Mm. Evan (27:34) all the neighbors are just super friendly and we just go into each other's yards and in the middle of the street sometimes and just we're able to Brynne Erickson (27:44) Mm-hmm. Evan (27:45) just kick back and have open and real conversations. Brynne Erickson (27:49) Yeah, I like I love that actually because we do create a lot of physical barriers and emotional barriers, spiritual barriers. Like we create walls and barriers that disconnect us all the time. And it is amazing that the physical ones do kind of naturally like create this border of like space. Like we don't we don't cross the line like Do I even know my neighbors? Do I even know the people around me? So yeah, I think we need to be mindful of like what barriers am I actually creating that don't even exist or don't even have to exist, but they're just there because I chose them to be there whether I meant to or not. Evan (28:38) Right. Well said. Brynne Erickson (28:41) Okay. Hopefully that some people will find that helpful. I know that it can be hard to navigate our stances, especially in correlation to religion, but I think that we gave some people some things to think about. So that's awesome. Perfect. We're halfway in. So let's transition into another type of relationship and challenge that families experience. which is navigating divorce. And I think this one, we have made really good gains as a society, in it not being quite so heavy and looked down upon about people's worth or abilities in a relationship. But there's definitely still some stigma there that like if you got divorced, something's wrong with you. Like that you couldn't keep your marriage together, right? Or you couldn't tough it out for the kids. Or whatever it is, right? So I think that this will be a worthwhile conversation. Evan (29:37) Agreed. Brynne Erickson (29:38) Okay, where do you want to start then? Evan (29:39) so I think I yeah, I think I had mentioned, well, I guess I could speak to a little bit of that stigma that still remains. I I do think that people still like they perceive it's a perceived failure on their part, right? Like I I must have done something wrong or yeah, I didn't do enough, you know. And and I actually kind of equate it to like a grief process, right? Where there's some of that bargaining, like, if only this or only that, if I had you know, done this differently, and maybe I wouldn't be in the situation where Brynne Erickson (30:14) Mm-hmm. Evan (30:15) divorce is on the table. so yeah, but I do I do agree. I think that we have come a long way in removing some of the stigma. So Brynne Erickson (30:25) Yeah, definitely. Thank goodness. Evan (30:27) Yes, for sure. And my my perspective has shifted too, you know, and I won't get super into it, but like my my parents divorced a couple of years ago and they're actually both already remarried. and Brynne Erickson (30:37) Mm-hmm. Okay. Evan (30:39) they it seemed like it was it was a a really, really good move. It it really I think provided a lot of healing. it kind of compelled, forced things to happen, but also like they both chose to go about it in a really beautiful way where like their new spouses, they're they're visiting, you know, like when we have one of our kids' baptism, like they're like visiting with each other. And it's just like, and again, I know that's not everyone's experience, but my perspective have sh has shifted a lot, both professionally and helping people navigate divorce, but also personally being able to witness my parents overcome Heard things about Brynne Erickson (31:20) Yeah. Evan (31:21) that. Brynne Erickson (31:22) I love that. Well, and I I was thinking about this the other day. I'm like, it's pretty incredible that so many people can pick one person out of again the billions of people in the world and spend decades with them. Evan (31:36) Right. Brynne Erickson (31:37) Like, that's pretty cool, actually, that so many people have been able to make it work. and I even thought of it this way too, like You know, what if when it doesn't work out with someone, like that person just played a role in a part of your life's journey and helped you become and learn the things that you learned in that time? And then that relationship just came to a close. And it was time to move on to the next one. why does it have to be like this all or nothing? Again, right? That very black and white mentality of no, this was supposed to work. Forever and we weren't supposed to change or become different people or grow apart in our in our growing. when I say it out loud, it doesn't even make sense. Like, well, yeah, of course you're supposed to become a different person and discover what else you could become and your preferences and such. But you're supposed to grow with your person. Well, not always, clearly. Like there are so many different outcomes. And to make it mean something about my failure or worth. doesn't seem helpful. So why would I even go there? But like to me that's our natural tendencies, right? Is to diminish our worth and find evidence for why we failed when we should have triumphed in that relationship. And yeah, because I I have obvious I have friends who have been married multiple times already or didn't get to be married with that person for more than a few years. And yeah, it's it's a tricky thing to navigate and still think that you're an awesome person in. Evan (33:25) Definitely. Well, and I really I really like what you were saying though about the journey, right? Like I actually use that sometimes in therapy where well I'll use the hero's journey, right? Where you know heroes given a quest, a call to go on this adventure, right? And we we have people in our lives that are on that quest with us, but sometimes the paths diverge and sometimes they even might come back, right? You hear about people who who separate or divorce and then who later decide to get married again. You Brynne Erickson (33:59) Hm. Evan (34:02) know, and and and so I think that seeing it from that perspective of everyone being on a different journey. And sometimes that's a shared journey and sometimes ends up not being for the entire duration of the journey, I think is a a helpful metaphor for me. Brynne Erickson (34:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah, that is helpful. And I'm in this moment I'm just realizing too that the only reasons our that we become so heartbroken over our relationships and the way they pan out is because of the rules that we placed on them. Like the expectations that we created for those relationships. And when those expectations aren't met, then that's when we experience disappointment or a feeling of insufficiency or failure. And it's not to say that we shouldn't put expectations on relationships, but when those expectations aren't met, we get to decide what that means. And I think yeah, I think that if we could take a step back and be like, okay, this relationship isn't what I thought it was going to be, but does that mean it has to be a problem? Cause within human nature I've realized we like to make things into problems a lot and big deals. But it's only when that circumstance doesn't look the way we thought it should should look, right? Like, now it's a problem Evan (35:24) Right. Brynne Erickson (35:25) because it didn't come out the way that I thought it should. And I just I think it's so interesting that the only reason we're disappointed is because we think there's a perfect way of being in a marriage. perfect way of being a grandma or a mother in law or a father and whether you decided, my family needs to be like Joe's family, and then I will know we have made it. Like we all have just decided what our perfect ideal is. And then when that doesn't happen, that's when we feel sad or unfulfilled. But we're kind of bringing it upon ourselves because we chose to believe that. So it's been helpful for me to realize like I can actually change my beliefs at any time. Which is a hard thing to do though. Evan (36:11) Right. Well, I th for sure. Well, I think I I I like to think of it as like we talked about expectations and then when we don't meet those expectations, how yeah, it's a perceived failure. You know, Brynne Erickson (36:24) Yeah. Evan (36:24) I I didn't, I I must have failed somewhere along the way. But I yeah, I think it's more about having realistic expectations for your partner while also having realistic expectations for yourself. Right. So like there's a there's a book called the the happiness equation. where it talks about like the the larger the gap between what my expectations are and what my reality is, the the less happy I'm going to to feel. Right. And so being Brynne Erickson (36:49) I like that. Yeah. Evan (36:51) able to to have those realistic expectations for ourselves and in our relationships, I think we're more likely to to work through the things that we need to. Brynne Erickson (37:03) What makes something a realistic expectation? Evan (37:07) I mean, I think we we spoke to it a little bit, right? Like we can be our own worst critic. We can be extremely hard on ourselves. You know, especially if you've you've got kind of going tying it back to religious convictions, you know, these are these are the things that are expected of me that aren't necessarily coming from me. Maybe they are coming from this is a Brynne Erickson (37:27) Mm-hmm. Evan (37:27) certain way that I'm supposed to live, or conduct my life. And when I make a mistake, when I fall short, I think the conversation enters into like guilt versus shame, perhaps, Brynne Erickson (37:40) Mm. Evan (37:40) where like, hey, I made a mistake or hey, I fell short, rather than this is a personal flaw about me, this is a character flaw, this is something that you know is keeping me stuck. And Brynne Erickson (37:53) Mm-hmm. Evan (37:54) so I think more of that realistic expectation is is more aligned with that guilt, if that makes sense, of where where can I make corrections, while also accepting my humanity that I'm going to fall short, that I'm not Brynne Erickson (38:08) Right. Evan (38:09) gonna have this all figured out. Brynne Erickson (38:11) Yeah, and that's where grace comes into play, I think, as the giver and the receiver of the action or whatever it was. All right. So you mentioned that you offer discernment counseling to help couples as they're figuring out what to do as far as stay or separate. What is discernment counseling? Evan (38:34) so discernment counseling is not traditional couples counseling. it's a short term process where the only goal is to help the couple decide if they want to stay married or not. The goal is to help them find clarity and confidence in that decision. Right? So we're actually we're not focused on repairing the relationship. We're focusing on Is this something that we want to try to fix? there's three broad paths that are outlined. So there's maintaining the status quo where the couple isn't ready to make a major decision. They're still trying to, yeah, they're still just trying to figure out if they if they want things to change. But most of the time I'll say when a couple is presenting in therapy. they are kind of they're at the last ditch effort hail mary approach. Brynne Erickson (39:34) Yeah. Evan (39:36) and so they're they're wanting things to change. They do not want the status quo to to remain. Brynne Erickson (39:42) Yeah. Evan (39:43) So that's the first first option or or path. The second one is committing to therapy, to couples therapy of I'm going to Let's agree on this time frame that we're gonna be all in where all hands are on deck, you know, where we're gonna give this an honest effort. and so, like, for instance, and it's tricky because I don't mean to like throw out a number, but generally speaking, I'd say couples that decide on option two, they go for about 90 days. Let's go 90 days where we're all in, divorce is off the table. And we're gonna see if we can can make this work. it doesn't mean that once the 90 days are up, like, yep, I'm done. It's again, let's re-reflect, let's re-evaluate where we're at. So, and then the third option is yeah, we we move towards separation or divorce. we've decided that that's what's best for our relationship. and some people that might be, yeah, I've decided, I just This is officially done. I want to have this officially done. Some people like, let's actually let's focus on just separating for now. Let's see what it's like to Brynne Erickson (40:54) Mm. Evan (40:55) just live in separate spaces, even within the same house or outside Brynne Erickson (40:58) Okay. Evan (41:00) of the house. Right. Like it doesn't have to be straight to this relationship is done. Brynne Erickson (41:07) True. Evan (41:07) It's we're exploring more of what that what that feels like. If that's something that I want. So. Those are the three three paths with discernment counseling. yeah. Brynne Erickson (41:22) In what in your experience, what are some of the main reasons that people start to think about or consider a divorce? Evan (41:28) Ooh, that's a good question. It's a tough question though, because I feel like every couple is so different. And even after almost ten years of being a therapist, I feel like there are new reasons, new holdups that lead to people considering divorce. so I think like maybe some clinical themes I've noticed. Brynne Erickson (41:54) Okay. Evan (41:55) is like emotional like they're emotionally disconnected where they don't feel seen, heard, valued, or close. can be like chronic conflict where they just keep repeating the same cycles where there's just not really any meaningful repair that's happening. I think more Clear reason would be like betrayal. So for some people that could be infidelity, deception, not following through on what we've agreed upon. and and I guess I should add, with that, I think it's important to clarify that like what one couple may consider or what individual within a couple may consider a deal breaker may not be the case for someone else, right? Like I I do work with couples where there has been sexual infidelity and they decide that they do want to to try to repair the relationship. Right. But for some people, you know, another couple that might be a deal breaker. but betrayal is something that I see a lot of. I think there could also be like a couple realizing that there are some pretty fundamental differences. So like how to raise our kids. or religion, sexuality, Brynne Erickson (43:14) Mm-hmm. Evan (43:16) lifestyle. There could be things there. there can also be like unequal responsibility. So like one person feeling like they're carrying all the weight, all the responsibility, and the other person, you know, feeling like just not being able to see eye to eye on that. Brynne Erickson (43:35) Mm-hmm. Evan (43:35) I think another thing too would be like what I'd refer to as like accumulated resentment, where Brynne Erickson (43:40) Mm. Evan (43:40) just and that could be because we've fallen in the same cycles where it just we aren't able to really get through any of that. We're not able to make that meaningful repair. And so it's just built over time and eventually just had enough kind of Brynne Erickson (43:56) Yeah. Evan (43:56) thing. So and then yeah, personal changes, like people just wanting to. They're just questioning if this is something that they really want or if they want something different. Brynne Erickson (44:08) Mm-hmm. Evan (44:10) So I know those are really like kind of broad, but Brynne Erickson (44:12) Yeah. No, it's good it's good insight. How do we improve? I mean this is a big question, but what's your best advice for improving communication in our marriages? Evan (44:25) Improving communication. Brynne Erickson (44:27) Yeah. Evan (44:28) I think getting to a point where we can actually hear each other. And I think the only way to do that is if we don't have well, it reminds me of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. So John and Julie Gottman are big researchers on stuff like this. And so they they've identified four predictors of divorce. And Brynne Erickson (44:53) Okay. Evan (44:54) so it I mean it sounds very doom and gloom, right? Four horsemen of the apocalypse. but there's criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. And so if those, if if any of those or multiple of those four are present in a relationship, it's most likely going to interfere with being able to have that open and honest communication. And so being able to to learn how do I how do I become aware when those enter the relationship? Brynne Erickson (45:22) Mm-hmm. Evan (45:22) And what can I do differently? Right. Like I don't when I'm working with a couple on improving their communication, I'm not just trying to show like, yeah, make sure this isn't your relationship without giving them a roadmap. I think it's important to see like, yes, these things could be popping up in your relationship, but then here are some antidotes, here are some things that you can do to try to combat those so that you can have that open communication. I don't know if you want me to get into those or if you just wanted to know Brynne Erickson (45:53) Yeah. like 'cause most of us I think it's an a an initial reaction for most that when someone brings some critique to you or an issue, like something that they perceive as a problem, there's that word again, or a weakness that we naturally get defensive, right? So how do we what is a different approach that we can take? when we feel that defensiveness coming on. Evan (46:24) Yeah, well I think I think it's important to speak to like when we talk about criticism first, Brynne Erickson (46:30) Mm-hmm. Evan (46:31) it's I I do think there's a difference between being critical and issuing a complaint. And some someone might argue that that's semantics. but I think like a criticism is more about it's it's a attacking one's character, right? Where a complaint is I'm seeing this problem and I Brynne Erickson (46:48) Mm. Evan (46:48) need it to be addressed. and so I think that can help like if we distingu distinguish that, then like we can there's less defensiveness likely to to show up if it I mean, I guess it matters how we bring things up, right? Like Brynne Erickson (47:05) Yes, I Evan (47:07) and we call that like gentle or soft startup, where like how I say things, you know, like that's where like I statements can be helpful, like hey, I'm feeling really frustrated because X, Y, or Z, right? Brynne Erickson (47:19) Right. Evan (47:20) Versus like you always do this, you never do this right, Brynne Erickson (47:23) Yeah. Evan (47:24) which feels more like that criticism against one's character. So I think that can help with that defensiveness. But then also like taking personal responsibility. Like, can I actually create a little bit of space? Can I slow down? And when I am feeling like I'm being criticized, can I allow there to be a a space where Like, is there any truth to what they said? You know, could I could I have said that differently? Could I have handled the situation differently? Right. But but if I'm not really open to that, then it's gonna be hard to to overcome that defensiveness. They're all kind of connected too, because I can I even even like saying that right now, it's like I could see how contempt enters the picture, right? Or it's just like, what's the even the point? Like I don't even want to give you the time of day, like just kind of whatever when yeah, we need to be mindful of all these things. Brynne Erickson (48:23) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know for me, believing that my husband truly loves me and has my best interest at heart has made it easier to voice the opinions, the thoughts, the hey, I'm just wondering why you do this thing. Why you said that thing or why you handled this situation that way rather than you're so lazy or you are such a harsh parent, you know, and when I think you said it well, like when it when it attacks our character and that's when it can become so like I don't want to listen to you. Like just believing that he loves me and I love him and we're both on the same team has really served us in our marriage. Does that mean we don't fight or argue? Of course not. But what those moments bring to light things that we can both work on to make our marriage be what we truly want it to be. Evan (49:32) Right. Yeah, beautifully said. I love that. I think a key difference is, you know, when it when it's coming across as criticism, it's leading to defensiveness. It instead of it feeling like it's they're attacking me, my partner's attacking me, it's seeing it from a lens that they're bringing up this this concern because they want to become closer to me. It's not to to drive our relationship further away. It's that they're, you know, kind of like that a team approach, right? Like I want to work as a team. I want to figure out how we can be on the same page. We may not may not be on the same page on everything, Brynne Erickson (50:14) Mm-hmm. Evan (50:15) but this is an attempt to to understand to to get on that same page. Brynne Erickson (50:21) When should someone help or when should someone seek help in making the decision? Like how long should they just tough it out for? Like should they wait until it's the ha Hail Mary attempt? Do you have any insight on that? Evan (50:35) Yeah, I mean I think that we all could benefit. I mean, I'm kind of biased, obviously, because I'm therapist, but I think we all can use some help. And it doesn't have to I think sometimes like the whole tough it out before and then get outside help, it doesn't work for me because I I think that like we don't have to have these crises. We don't have to have these Brynne Erickson (50:59) Mm. Evan (51:00) big issues before seeking that help. And it doesn't mean that there's a lack of resilience, you know, whether personally or relationally. Like it just I I'm feeling stuck. And, Brynne Erickson (51:13) Yeah. Evan (51:13) you know, we've tried we've tried some different things and it hasn't panned out the way that I had hoped. It doesn't mean that I'm throwing in the towel. Maybe Brynne Erickson (51:21) Yes. Evan (51:21) I mean if that's something that I am considering, that's also okay. But like there's there's that stigma, right? I think that's where some of that stigma shows up where I've got to if I if I'm not able to tough it out, what does that say about me? When I think that there's a lot of toughness going around and you can still be tough, even though Brynne Erickson (51:45) Yes. Evan (51:46) you need some outside help. Brynne Erickson (51:48) Yeah, and the reality is is being married is tough and being single is tough. Like life is just tough. No so choose your hard when you can make a choice, right? Like choose what you're gonna fight for, choose what you're gonna endure the hard for. But that we are live in an amazing age where there are so many resources to help us make sense of, think of something a different way, finding support. that we don't ha really just have to grin and bear it like we used to, which I think is pretty awesome. Evan (52:24) Sure. Well, and that's why I think discernment counseling can be so helpful, right? Because you don't have to know yet that like I want this relationship to work or I want this to end. Like I I can show up and just have a third person that's not Brynne Erickson (52:41) Mm-hmm. Evan (52:42) kind of stuck in all of that. Help me, help me tease that apart, help me find that clarity of what I want out of this relationship. Brynne Erickson (52:53) Awesome. Okay. Evan, before we close, one last question. How can we foster better relationships in general? What's your best advice for us? Evan (53:03) How can we foster better relationships? I think that's a big question. Give me Brynne Erickson (53:08) It is a big question. Evan (53:10) It's a great question, but pretty big. Brynne Erickson (53:14) Yes, no pressure. Evan (53:16) I think focusing on I I like to go back to values. I think that when I look through a framework where I'm trying to honor the values that are most important to me. And how can I help this person across from me, you know, my my partner, my spouse, how can I help honor their top values? You know, and and I I like to frame it that way because that comes from acceptance and commitment therapy for anyone that wants to know. great therapy model. There's a lot of great ones out there. Brynne Erickson (53:55) Mm-hmm. Evan (53:55) anyway. I think being able to make sense of when we do have problems, could it be that like I am not in alignment with my values? Or does my partner or spouse feel like they're not in alignment with their values? Is is something conflicting there? And so being able to have conversations around there, having repair conversations around that, I think can be really, really helpful in fostering a healthy relationship. So, and that doesn't even have to be with us with a partner or spouse. That could be in any relationship where we're trying, you know, and this actually I feel like ties in pretty well with what we were talking about earlier about sexuality and spiritual convictions, you know, like where I can Interact with anyone and we may have differing values. but I think we also can find a commonality in that, right? If we're just willing to lean into those harder conversations, we're willing to to see other people's perspectives that are different from our own. I think that's gonna definitely foster a healthy dialogue, a healthy relationship. Brynne Erickson (55:06) Yeah, perfectly said. Well, thank you so much, Evan, for your time. If people are wanting to work with you in the Utah State area, how can they find you? Evan (55:18) Yeah, so I am located in North Logan in Cash Valley. I work at Fortitude Couples and Family Therapy. yeah, you can definitely search us up on on the internet. but that's that's where my private practice is and Brynne Erickson (55:33) Okay. Do you offer virtual or not so much? Evan (55:39) I actually don't offer virtual. So I think that it's great. I mean, that's one of the the benefits, right, from when COVID at its height hit Brynne Erickson (55:48) Mm. Evan (55:48) that it opened up all of that. But I I really thrive at being able to have that face to face interaction. I feel like there's so much that I'm able to pick up. you know, there's just so much communication happening that's nonverbal in a session Brynne Erickson (56:03) Mm. Evan (56:04) and and not that like clinicians can't find that. pick up on those things virtually. But personally, I think that's what helps me the most be the best therapist for someone Brynne Erickson (56:17) That's awesome. Thanks, Evan. You've shared so much beautiful wisdom with us. And here's two better relationships. Evan (56:25) Awesome. Thanks for having me, Brynne.