Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / How Science Proves the Healing Power of Horses: Dr. Pebbles Turbeville and the Horses and Humans Research Foundation | Ep 41

Transcript

How Science Proves the Healing Power of Horses: Dr. Pebbles Turbeville and the Horses and Humans Research Foundation | Ep 41 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
• 0:44
  Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:46
  Okay, I've got Pebbles Turbeville here.
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  She is the CEO of Horses and Humans Research Foundation.
• 0:57
  If you don't know about them, you should know about them because I've known
• 1:00
  about them for about 15 years, and I've watched 'em grow from something quite
• 1:04
  small to something quite a lot bigger.
• 1:06
  And what they do is they.
• 1:07
  Fund studies into what we all in the equine assisted world do, which means that
• 1:12
  those of us who then need to get funding for our own programs can look to the
• 1:17
  studies that horses and humans Research Foundation have funded and basically use
• 1:22
  that data to show that we don't suck.
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  And as we know, those of us who've been in it for a while
• 1:27
  know that this has been a problem.
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  I think for people that are coming in now where equine assisted work is much
• 1:35
  more accepted, man, if you've been around 15, 20 years ago, like people just, ah,
• 1:40
  you guys just playing with ponies, you know, and we had to prove that what we
• 1:45
  were doing well, okay, it was playing with ponies, but that playing with
• 1:49
  ponies was really, really good for the human and like medically provably good.
• 1:55
  So horses and humans research foundation really got into the out ahead of this
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  and got into the forefront of this early.
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  And have been, I'd say, blazing the trail.
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  And not just that, but sort of, you know, how a rising tide lifts all boats.
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  They've been legitimizing us, I would say, for the last 15 or 20 years.
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  So, I want to shut up now and have pebbles talk about what she does, but
• 2:19
  this is my big up because people like Pebbles are out there working on our
• 2:23
  behalf and you know, we need to support them and know what they're doing.
• 2:27
  And also, if you've got really interesting studies that you could turn them onto,
• 2:33
  pebbles are gonna be all about it.
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  So, all right.
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  Without further ado Pebbles, welcome.
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  Thank you.
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  Who are you?
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  What do you do and why do you do it?
• 2:42
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 2:42
  Well, thanks.
• 2:43
  That was a great introduction.
• 2:45
  I could talk about myself, but I really rather rather talk about HHRF
• 2:49
  Forces and Humans Research Foundation.
• 2:52
  And I just need to jump in for a second and kind of give the honor to Molly
• 2:58
  Sweeney, our founder, because 20 years ago she was volunteering at a program
• 3:04
  in Texas when you were there nearby?
• 3:07
  Yeah, in Houston.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Sire.
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  And she saw, you know.
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  Those miracles that we see are just small steps for and people.
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  And so she was like, how is this happening?
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  And so her question, how really started this whole organization, it's
• 3:25
  kind of interesting how with the h and the horses and humans, but yeah,
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  in the sense that she wanted to know how the horses were actually helping.
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  So she gathered some people in the industry together.
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  Decided, you know, we need to do something and fun and get research started.
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  And so that happened 20 years ago.
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  Here we are now.
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  And she, she was really ahead of her time in some sense.
• 3:54
  Why was
• 3:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Molly doing this?
• 3:55
  Was she an academic?
• 3:56
  Like why did she have this idea to, to crush the moment?
• 3:59
  No,
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 4:00
  it was all about being a volunteer.
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  I mean, she loves horses.
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  She grew up, her whole family was involved with horses, add horses.
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  Her her children have horses or grandchildren ride.
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  They, they all have this affection and, and bond with horses.
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  But when she actually saw those kids.
• 4:22
  Speak for the first time or be able to walk better.
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  All of those benefits that we see from equine assisted services.
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  She, she was like, okay, so how does this work?
• 4:35
  How, how is this happening?
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  And that's why she wanted to start getting research behind it.
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  So like you said, it wasn't just a pony rod, it really was therapeutic as well
• 4:49
  as therapy with those therapists, so.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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  But I suspect I'm, I'm, I'm the journalist in me wants to dig now.
• 4:59
  Okay.
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  There were, there are lots of people who 20 years ago were volunteering
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  at therapeutic riding places and who had family, you know, involvement
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  with horses and were curious, but not everybody went the extra mile like Molly
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  did to like create an organization and look for funding and so on and so on.
• 5:17
  Why?
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  Why did she, why was she the person that did that?
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  What
• 5:22
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
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  I think she's just a, she's just one of those people in the sense that she has a
• 5:27
  brilliant mind and she is an innovator.
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  She has that intuition piece.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
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  Brilliant mind.
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  She loves physics.
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  I can't even fathom physics.
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  I mean, I love it in
• 5:44
  Rupert Isaacson: theory.
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  I admire it.
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  But yes, I hear
• 5:47
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 5:47
  yeah, so yeah, I mean, she's just kind of ahead of her time and she wants to
• 5:54
  know, she, she's got those questions.
• 5:57
  Rupert Isaacson: So she reached out and found people to support this endeavor.
• 6:01
  Was that all initially in Texas?
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  And who did she talk to and, and why do you think.
• 6:07
  She, why was it that she could persuade them to go, yeah, look, we'll give
• 6:12
  you some money to figure this out.
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
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  I think she contacted a variety of people.
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  Casey Henry was the first executive director.
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  She was the executive director of Fieldstone Farm before she was of HHRF.
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  So she had grown a small program into, this is probably one of the top
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  three in the United States right now.
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  And she got Pat Mullens, who was in Markel Insurance.
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  She got some physical therapist as well as some psychologists.
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  She got a variety of people who were immersed into EAS at that time
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  that were also influential in, in that area, but also realize that.
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  They were movers and shakers.
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  They were gonna, if they believed in what Molly was gonna propose or, and
• 7:07
  they, they, if they saw that dream, they were gonna make it happen and they did.
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  And so having that variety of people also set the organization up the right way.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 7:21
  So, so what was, go ahead.
• 7:22
  Sorry.
• 7:23
  I don't want to, I was
• 7:24
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 7:24
  about to say, so like, for example, we give out research funds for research
• 7:31
  about how horses are helping humans.
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  And it was, we have a scientific advisory council, so our kind of foundation was
• 7:40
  also patterned after Michael j Fox's.
• 7:44
  Parkinson's Foundation.
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  'cause they looked around and said, who's doing this type of research and what
• 7:50
  are some models that we could look at?
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  So that was one of the examples.
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  And so when we make a call for our grant, we have advisors who are specialists
• 8:01
  in certain areas, but they all do research and they evaluate those grant
• 8:06
  applications and they're evaluated and then they move up the tiers.
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  Now we've changed the process, or I, I should say, tweaked it a bit.
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  In the past couple of years, it used to come that paper applications came to the
• 8:20
  board and they looked at 'em and made a, had a discussion and made a decision.
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  But now we actually have the applicants.
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  This past year do a PowerPoint presentation, a walkthrough video of
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  the facility that they'll be using for their research so we can make
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  sure that it's appropriate and safe,
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  Rupert Isaacson: very wise.
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
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  And then once those two, so the board has chance to watch those presentation
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  and videos, and then we schedule times with them where we actually
• 8:54
  have a question, a q and a session.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  It's Shark Tank basically.
• 8:59
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 8:59
  Yes, exactly.
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  And that's what, but you know, but that's, but so
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  Rupert Isaacson: it's so Wise Pebbles, because in the early days
• 9:05
  with Horse Boy when we were naive we, we still probably are naive, but
• 9:11
  you know, we're just getting less.
• 9:13
  So now, we trained like loads of people and we assumed that they had the same
• 9:20
  horse knowledge, more or less that we did.
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  We assumed that their horse care was pretty good.
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  We assumed.
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  We assumed and we got egg on our face a couple of times and then we're like,
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  oh, we need an evaluation process.
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  And it's really interesting, as soon as we started asking people to show
• 9:39
  on video the environment they're working in, their horses, how they
• 9:42
  keep their horses, all of that.
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  Not to mention the therapy work.
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  So interesting.
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  You know, you'd get a certain number would just like disappear right there.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And then you realize, oh yeah, the really good people don't mind.
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  The really good people actually see the value of jumping through
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  those hoops because they want to ensure the quality as well.
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  Right.
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  That's what we should do.
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  And now it's, it's interesting when we are giving trainings and we say, well,
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  you can't be a practitioner until you go through this evaluation process.
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  It's very interesting.
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  Sometimes when some people react negatively to that, you're like,
• 10:16
  well, then probably you're not right for this job because Right.
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  You know, there's a lot of details to, you know, to be aware of.
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  So I'm, I'm very glad that you, you did that.
• 10:28
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 10:28
  I wanna say something about, yeah, what you said just now about
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  Shark Tank, which is really funny.
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  So when I, I first started with HHRF in 2020 and I was part-time because I
• 10:39
  was working on my dissertation myself.
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  And so then the job has evolved to now where I'm actually a full-time employee.
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  But when I tried to, I thought giving away money was gonna be easy,
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  like the easiest part of my job.
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  Like, you get a grant, you get a grant, you get a grant, like that
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  could be Oprah kind of thing.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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  And And how lovely would that feel?
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  Yeah,
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 11:01
  exactly.
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  But it has been the hardest part of my job, and part of it is like the first
• 11:08
  year that we had grant applications, we had two come to the board and the
• 11:13
  Scientific advisory council said, these are the two highest rating ones, but
• 11:18
  we don't feel great about either one.
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  So I was like, ah.
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  So I did give a grant that year.
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  The next year we had one, I called 'em up and said, Hey, you, you're the winner.
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  And they didn't have the participants, so Okay.
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  I said, give me some time, let's help you get some participants couldn't get enough.
• 11:40
  Wow.
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  When you
• 11:41
  Rupert Isaacson: actually have to push a boulder uphill to give people money.
• 11:45
  That's bizarre.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 11:46
  So that one was out.
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  So the next time I was like, I think it was something else happened and
• 11:54
  I was like, y'all are killing me.
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  I cannot give away money.
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  And that's what our purpose is, is to fund research.
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  So our board president said, well, why don't we do something really quick
• 12:05
  and fast and do it like Shark Tank?
• 12:08
  And I was like, what?
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  I'm like, we can do Shark Tank.
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  And he's like, sure we can.
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  And we'll, we'll have him like in a room and compete.
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  And I'm like.
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  Okay.
• 12:18
  Liking this concept, but let's take it back a notch.
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  So what we did was, like I said, the first time was have 'em, I gave them
• 12:26
  a list of questions and said, okay, want you to present on this and we'll
• 12:31
  have a q and a session afterwards and gave them 20 minutes each.
• 12:36
  We found out that became a little long, so we t tweaked it this year
• 12:42
  and said, yeah, send in these videos and answer these questions and
• 12:46
  then we'll do a q and a with you.
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  So it all worked out and it honestly, I mean it's really showed us who's
• 12:53
  really kind of passionate about it and who really understands
• 12:57
  what they're actually gonna do.
• 12:59
  'cause there was one at one point in time that we were like, it wasn't, I
• 13:05
  didn't feel confident that they were confident in what they were going to do.
• 13:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 13:11
  So it really is interesting having a main person.
• 13:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 13:14
  You know, I, I'm sure you do it this way too, like we, we don't do our
• 13:18
  evaluation process like real shark tank in that it's not like impress
• 13:23
  us or we'll tell you to f off.
• 13:25
  Yeah.
• 13:26
  It's more that if there's obvious red flags, well then hey, but we've obviously
• 13:32
  put, you know, checks and balances into place to try to be more aware of
• 13:36
  that, like before we get to that point.
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  But what we do with our evaluations is if we feel that somebody is really got their
• 13:47
  heart in the right place, but lacking knowledge then we'll say, look, we can't
• 13:52
  pass your evaluation now, but we will.
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  We like what you're doing.
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  We know that you're coming from a good place here.
• 14:02
  If you will work with us to show you how to do it right.
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  And even if it takes you two, three years, are you down with that?
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  And then we can get you through your evaluation.
• 14:13
  And it's interesting, you know, the, the really good, the really committed
• 14:16
  people are like, yes, of course.
• 14:17
  Thank you for the mentorship and the people who don't feel that way deselect.
• 14:25
  Yeah.
• 14:25
  When, when you are doing this, is, is that sort of how you do it?
• 14:28
  Will you work with people to, to a certain degree, get them to where, or given
• 14:34
  that you're giving away money, is it trickier you, you kind of need them Yeah.
• 14:38
  To arrive a bit more ready?
• 14:39
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 14:39
  Yeah.
• 14:40
  Because we're very strong about, you know, our integrity
• 14:45
  and, and keeping it straight.
• 14:46
  That if, like I said, if they come to the, to the table and they don't have
• 14:51
  enough information or don't have, if the Scientific Advisory Council doesn't
• 14:56
  give them a stamp, then no, we can't.
• 14:59
  But like sometimes for example, there's,
• 15:02
  Rupert Isaacson: but can you say to them, you know, here's what you need to do Yes.
• 15:03
  To be worthy, you know, do these things and then come back to us.
• 15:07
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 15:07
  Yeah, we do give 'em back their or give them some feedback from the
• 15:11
  scientific advisors so they do get some feedback no matter who they are.
• 15:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:16
  In the process.
• 15:17
  So that helps.
• 15:18
  And it's difficult too, I will say, because, you know, we get, you know,
• 15:24
  almost 30 applications all over the world.
• 15:27
  Let me back up.
• 15:28
  'cause we are international and we have fun internationally.
• 15:32
  Germany, France Canada, several times as well as America.
• 15:37
  So we get applications all over the world, but I can only give out one.
• 15:42
  So it, it makes it difficult, especially when, you know, people
• 15:46
  who apply and you have to send 'em a letter or call 'em and say, I'm
• 15:51
  sorry, you're just not that top one.
• 15:55
  You know, and it's all confidential.
• 15:58
  I can't, you know, right.
• 16:00
  Say, well, this or that, but I will say in this gra last grant cycle
• 16:06
  that we had three really good ones.
• 16:08
  And I let the other two know that if something happens to the, the person who's
• 16:15
  supposed to accept, if something happens, I might be, we might be coming back to
• 16:22
  see if, if we could work something out or.
• 16:26
  Perhaps they should
• 16:27
  Rupert Isaacson: resub or resubmit resub or
• 16:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 16:29
  something in that area just because they were that good or
• 16:33
  close to being the winning grant.
• 16:36
  So that, you know, that does happen.
• 16:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 16:40
  So what I'd love to do is I want to talk to you about equine welfare,
• 16:46
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 16:46
  okay?
• 16:47
  Rupert Isaacson: 'Cause you know, obviously in horse boy, this is
• 16:48
  a huge deal for us and I'd like to also talk to you about some
• 16:52
  of your best projects to date.
• 16:56
  Okay?
• 16:56
  But before that, I know you don't want me to ask you about
• 16:59
  this, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
• 17:00
  I want to know how you got involved in this in the first place.
• 17:03
  I want to talk a little bit about Pebbles.
• 17:05
  Why and why do you call pebbles anyway?
• 17:09
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 17:09
  Well, you have to watch the Flintstones to be able to know the name.
• 17:13
  But basically I was born and my mom was gonna not name
• 17:17
  me, who her name was Barbara.
• 17:19
  I was gonna be Barbara.
• 17:21
  And my brother was very disappointed in the fact that I was a girl.
• 17:26
  And he said I should be able to name 'em, so I'm gonna, oh, she,
• 17:31
  she was gonna na name me Babs.
• 17:33
  And he was like, well, I wanna call her Bam, bam.
• 17:37
  And 'cause he was a big Flint Flintstone fan, so they were like, thank goodness
• 17:43
  my older sisters were like, no, she's a girl, you need to call her something else.
• 17:46
  And he said, well, pebbles.
• 17:47
  So
• 17:48
  Rupert Isaacson: you could have gone through your whole life with
• 17:49
  a bone through your hair though.
• 17:51
  I mean, it might've been really cool.
• 17:53
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 17:53
  And honestly, bam, bam fits me better 'cause I've been blonde.
• 17:56
  That
• 17:57
  Rupert Isaacson: such a cool, yeah,
• 17:58
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 17:58
  I know.
• 17:58
  And I, I'm stronger than the average woman.
• 18:02
  So, yeah, but I, yeah, was named Bam, bam, I mean, pebbles.
• 18:07
  And so here's a little funny trivia for you.
• 18:09
  I have three diplomas and three different names.
• 18:15
  So my undergraduate is Barbara Turbeville, and my master's degree was with my
• 18:23
  married name, which was Barbara Heidrick.
• 18:25
  And then I got rid of him and his name.
• 18:28
  I legally changed it and became Dr.
• 18:32
  Pebbles Turbeville.
• 18:32
  I
• 18:33
  Rupert Isaacson: love that.
• 18:33
  What are you a doctor in Pebbles?
• 18:35
  What are you Dr.
• 18:35
  Pebbles of?
• 18:36
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 18:36
  I'm actually in sports management with an emphasis in leadership.
• 18:40
  Okay.
• 18:40
  Mainly because when I started down this road the United States Sports
• 18:44
  Academy was the only university, higher ed that was online completely.
• 18:50
  And that was eons ago.
• 18:52
  Now everybody is.
• 18:53
  Right.
• 18:54
  But so I kind of went that sports management route just because, and I'm
• 19:00
  not a sports fan, which is really funny.
• 19:04
  I could care less about professional or
• 19:07
  Rupert Isaacson: like, like an academic.
• 19:08
  Yeah,
• 19:09
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 19:09
  I know.
• 19:10
  I, but because I'm really more interested in the recreational aspects,
• 19:15
  not the right competition piece.
• 19:17
  The, that,
• 19:17
  Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the brain aspect in a, in a weird way.
• 19:20
  Yeah,
• 19:20
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 19:20
  yeah, yeah.
• 19:22
  You know, and part of that, but like, I'm more recreational more than sports.
• 19:27
  I should say recreational rather
• 19:29
  Rupert Isaacson: than competitive.
• 19:31
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 19:31
  Correct.
• 19:32
  And it's sort of like, you know, Dr.
• 19:33
  Helen Sharp I just reached out with her to help me 'cause I had this concept,
• 19:39
  'cause I used to keep quick pause.
• 19:40
  Okay,
• 19:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
• 19:41
  Helen Sharp.
• 19:42
  I don't think we have a link down below, but scroll back
• 19:44
  lads through our interviews.
• 19:47
  We did a thing with Dr.
• 19:48
  Helen Sharp.
• 19:48
  She's rad.
• 19:49
  You need to know Dr.
• 19:50
  Helen Sharp.
• 19:51
  Okay, go on.
• 19:51
  Sorry.
• 19:52
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 19:52
  Yes.
• 19:52
  Yeah, yeah.
• 19:53
  Good point.
• 19:54
  A good shout out.
• 19:55
  So I used to teach sports, going back to where I was.
• 19:59
  I used to teach sports management equine studies, e
• 20:03
  therapeutic horsemanship classes.
• 20:06
  And I just had this concept about how, I'm gonna sidebar for a second here, like
• 20:11
  you did, about how horses help humans.
• 20:15
  And I used to teach a wellness class, and we used to talk about wellness
• 20:20
  and the eight dimensions of wellness.
• 20:22
  And some of those dimensions change depending on who or who
• 20:27
  wrote it and who's doing what.
• 20:29
  But, well, Aren, you know.
• 20:30
  This is what this is.
• 20:32
  This is what really horses do.
• 20:35
  So if you look at, one is emotional wellness.
• 20:37
  Okay?
• 20:38
  They help with anxiety, depression, or self-esteem, physical wellness, you know,
• 20:44
  improving balance, coordination, stronger muscles, social wellness, improving social
• 20:49
  skills, empathy, teamwork, spiritual wellness, being mindful presence,
• 20:56
  you know, environmental wellness.
• 20:59
  We just talked about that whole aspect of nature being around land.
• 21:03
  Occupational wellness.
• 21:05
  And that can be from job skills, career development, and nutritional
• 21:09
  wellness, which is a little bit of a stretch, but there are some studies.
• 21:14
  All this is, again, facts.
• 21:15
  It's
• 21:16
  Rupert Isaacson: good for us to eat horses.
• 21:16
  Sorry, I'm just kidding.
• 21:17
  No,
• 21:19
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 21:19
  no.
• 21:20
  Nutritional wellness as far as like improved body image, there's
• 21:23
  a lot of like support for recovery for people with eating disorders.
• 21:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 21:29
  But healthier lifestyles as far as like being able to eat, you know,
• 21:33
  nutritionally better agriculture education just movement supports nutrition.
• 21:38
  So anyway, I was struggling with this article and I kind of like turned over
• 21:43
  what I had to Helen and then she did this beautiful job of writing it up.
• 21:47
  But it is true, like horses help us in all those different dimensions.
• 21:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 21:52
  They get from us.
• 21:55
  Yeah.
• 21:56
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 21:56
  That it,
• 21:57
  Rupert Isaacson: so you've become a PhD in non-competitive sport management?
• 22:01
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 22:01
  Actually it's, it's a EDD it's a, it's a doctorate of education.
• 22:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 22:06
  Yeah.
• 22:07
  How do you end up with the horses in Humans Research Foundation?
• 22:11
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 22:11
  Okay, so I taught at St.
• 22:14
  Andrew Andrew's University for almost two years in Scotland.
• 22:18
  It was in Laurinburg, North Carolina.
• 22:20
  Okay.
• 22:20
  But it was in Scotland County, so it was very much Ah,
• 22:23
  Rupert Isaacson: okay.
• 22:23
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 22:23
  A sister city.
• 22:25
  And we had a strong equestrian program there and that
• 22:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 22:29
  We actually
• 22:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 22:29
  had a therapeutic horsemanship degree for your degree.
• 22:33
  Okay.
• 22:33
  Wow.
• 22:33
  And so that was ahead of its
• 22:34
  Rupert Isaacson: time.
• 22:34
  Yeah.
• 22:35
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 22:35
  Again, it was, yeah.
• 22:36
  And I taught there and kind of, departed just because of administration.
• 22:43
  It was just changing and I was not happy.
• 22:47
  And so 2020 was like that year of evaluation where you wanna be in
• 22:51
  life with the pandemic going on.
• 22:53
  So I was like, nah, I'm gonna take a sabbatical from life and finish up my
• 22:57
  dissertation 'cause I don't have time to do it because I was teaching multiple
• 23:01
  classes and running a program, et cetera.
• 23:04
  So, I left and ironically the college or university has closed
• 23:09
  now it's one of those liberal arts college that has fallen.
• 23:13
  But, so that's when I was on the development committee.
• 23:18
  HHRF and they didn't have an executive director, so I was like,
• 23:23
  Hey, I can do it part-time while I'm working on my dissertation.
• 23:28
  I haven't like, worked as a executive director in a long time.
• 23:32
  But we could do it part-time and do it as an intermediate you know,
• 23:36
  just to see if this is something that would be good for both of us.
• 23:40
  And three months in, we were sold.
• 23:42
  So I, I was like a kid in the candy store because I felt like there
• 23:46
  were so many things we needed to fix and to grow the organizations.
• 23:51
  And part of it was we were giving out a grant like once a year for
• 23:57
  research and then that was it.
• 23:59
  So you'd raise money, give out a grant, and then you just kind of twiddle your
• 24:02
  thumb waiting for the results to come in because that didn't happen overnight.
• 24:07
  Usually takes a year or two.
• 24:09
  So.
• 24:10
  We were like, we need to do something with education, because
• 24:13
  people don't understand research.
• 24:15
  They don't there's a disconnect between researcher's language
• 24:20
  versus a practitioner's language.
• 24:22
  The practitioner doesn't embrace it, doesn't understand it.
• 24:26
  And also it changes all the time because it, you know,
• 24:30
  research builds upon each other.
• 24:32
  It changes.
• 24:33
  So yeah, that's how we started with the education program and started
• 24:39
  doing a webinar once a month.
• 24:41
  That became really great.
• 24:43
  Everybody was receptive.
• 24:45
  It was changing between educational topics to equine wellbeing topics.
• 24:51
  And then all of a sudden we got the good, everybody wanted to do two.
• 24:56
  So we do two a month.
• 24:57
  These are free.
• 24:58
  Okay.
• 24:59
  We offer 'em again once we have 'em, we record 'em, put 'em on YouTube channel.
• 25:05
  They're evergreen.
• 25:06
  We have over a thousand subscribers now.
• 25:10
  The views on 'em range all over the place from a couple hundred
• 25:16
  to a couple thousand, depending on the topic and the speaker.
• 25:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 25:24
  So you get involved.
• 25:26
  Yes.
• 25:27
  You start the interesting process of giving out money for studies, you.
• 25:35
  Open up the education side.
• 25:37
  Give me your, how many years you, you're in now?
• 25:40
  Five years.
• 25:41
  Five years?
• 25:41
  Almost six.
• 25:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:43
  Give me your highlights of the grants that you've given out.
• 25:50
  I mean, honestly, that's probably each year.
• 25:52
  And talk to me about what studies have you funded in that time and
• 25:57
  why are you excited about them?
• 26:01
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 26:01
  Wow.
• 26:02
  Well, let me back up.
• 26:03
  And because of the fact that I came on during the pandemic, that was
• 26:09
  also a tough, tough time because we had a research study that was going
• 26:16
  on, but they had to hit the pause button because of COVID and having
• 26:22
  to be, to be able to wait for it.
• 26:24
  So that was part of and that actually was with university of Prince.
• 26:31
  Edward Island with Dr.
• 26:33
  Lori McDuff.
• 26:35
  And that was a veteran study that, the great part about that study was
• 26:40
  not only were they looking at the veterans, but they were also because
• 26:45
  Lori McDuffy is actually a veterinarian.
• 26:48
  But her cohort Dr.
• 26:51
  William Mopar was actually the human side.
• 26:55
  Okay.
• 26:56
  So he was looking at the changes with the, the veterans and she was looking
• 27:00
  at the changes with the horses.
• 27:01
  Okay.
• 27:02
  So I think that was one of our first ones that really looked at both.
• 27:07
  And then from there, like I said,
• 27:13
  from the beginning, it was hard giving out money.
• 27:15
  So there was a bit of a gap, right?
• 27:17
  Because once we went through 2020 and we then we raised some,
• 27:21
  had some money to give away.
• 27:23
  We couldn't, we didn't have the studies.
• 27:25
  They didn't have the participants, so it took a while.
• 27:28
  So we did our first innovative grant which was given to Baylor University where Dr.
• 27:36
  Beth Lanning used this new equipment functional near infrared, spectro,
• 27:43
  I can't say the word spectro.
• 27:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Try
• 27:48
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 27:48
  Kobi spectro.
• 27:51
  T so spec
• 27:52
  Rupert Isaacson: T,
• 27:53
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 27:53
  or No, it's not T, it's SC Scope.
• 27:56
  Scope.
• 27:57
  So like trauma
• 27:58
  Rupert Isaacson: scope?
• 27:59
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 27:59
  Yes.
• 27:59
  It's actually the, I like the abbreviation.
• 28:02
  Let's just call it the F-F-N-I-S.
• 28:05
  Rupert Isaacson: FFNI.
• 28:06
  What, sorry.
• 28:07
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 28:07
  F-N-I-S-F-N-I-S.
• 28:12
  Yeah.
• 28:12
  So it's a wearable.
• 28:14
  Apparatus that looks at the brain, it scans your brain, not the sort of like an
• 28:20
  Rupert Isaacson: e EEG that you wear while riding
• 28:22
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 28:22
  Correct.
• 28:22
  But it looks at the top layer of your brain and what changes are going on.
• 28:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 28:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 28:29
  And I feel really embarrassed.
• 28:31
  I can't say that.
• 28:32
  That would be
• 28:33
  Rupert Isaacson: the, that would be the, the cortex that that's on the top.
• 28:37
  Yeah, yeah.
• 28:37
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 28:37
  Yeah.
• 28:38
  Rupert Isaacson: So,
• 28:40
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 28:40
  so that was an innovative study.
• 28:43
  And the great part was, it was really kind of a brainstorm that kind of came
• 28:49
  out of one of the conferences that we had.
• 28:51
  So we had a conference and some of these researchers got together
• 28:55
  and they were like, oh, what if we did this and did that.
• 28:58
  And it was like interdisciplinary.
• 29:01
  All of them were like from different schools and they just chatted about it
• 29:05
  and then all of a sudden they were like.
• 29:08
  So Dr.
• 29:09
  Lanning applied for the Innovative study and actually the innovative
• 29:14
  study was $10,000, and that piece just helped them use two sites.
• 29:20
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:20
  Because it was travel funds.
• 29:21
  Rupert Isaacson: I, I could, I could see that from what the
• 29:23
  work that we do, horse boy.
• 29:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:26
  Frequently a $10,000 grant makes a difference between us being able
• 29:30
  to like, send a couple of people to a couple of places to gather some
• 29:35
  information, to crunch numbers to, you know, it, it, it's interesting,
• 29:40
  it often doesn't actually take as much money as people think it does.
• 29:43
  So I, I think these types of small grants are actually really good because what
• 29:48
  they do is they, they give you a kickoff and then, as you know, larger foundations
• 29:52
  will often give you a matching grant.
• 29:54
  You know?
• 29:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 29:54
  So if you can go and get like that innovative grant for 10 k, maybe someone's
• 29:59
  giving you a matching grant for 50 k, well then you are a fifth of the way there.
• 30:03
  Right.
• 30:03
  You know, so, yeah.
• 30:04
  And
• 30:04
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 30:04
  actually it was the reverse for us because they already had a big grant.
• 30:08
  They needed the little innovative grant to help them with travel funds.
• 30:12
  Ah.
• 30:13
  So it helped them.
• 30:15
  But as you said, because it was an innovative grant and they were just
• 30:19
  kind of trying it out to see if it would work, then it allowed them
• 30:24
  to one of the investigators who was on that innovative study Dr.
• 30:30
  Corey Smith applied.
• 30:32
  And he's doing the same type of work, the same type of mechanism, but he's
• 30:40
  using it with children with autism.
• 30:42
  Okay.
• 30:43
  So, and it's Co
• 30:45
  Rupert Isaacson: o Gordy.
• 30:45
  Gordy Smith,
• 30:47
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 30:47
  Corey.
• 30:49
  C?
• 30:49
  Yeah.
• 30:50
  CO Dr.
• 30:50
  RY.
• 30:51
  Is
• 30:51
  Rupert Isaacson: that a a man or a woman?
• 30:53
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 30:53
  It's a man.
• 30:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 30:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 30:55
  I'm just gonna quickly Google while you're talking.
• 30:57
  Please keep going.
• 30:58
  If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering
• 31:01
  a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 31:05
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 31:10
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 31:16
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• 31:22
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• 31:25
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 31:28
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 31:32
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 31:37
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• 31:39
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• 31:41
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• 31:43
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• 31:47
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• 31:50
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 31:52
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 31:57
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 32:00
  when they're not with you.
• 32:02
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 32:06
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 32:08
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 32:12
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 32:17
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 32:20
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 32:25
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 32:29
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 32:32
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 32:36
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 32:41
  absolutely gives you this.
• 32:42
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 32:42
  Okay.
• 32:43
  Well you could just go to our website and go under their research
• 32:48
  tab and funded, and you can see all the funded studies that we've done.
• 32:53
  Okay.
• 32:53
  And he's at, he's at the top.
• 32:55
  Okay.
• 32:56
  And then you could also say the word that I cannot say, but anyway, so he's
• 33:00
  doing a 10 week manual based therapeutic riding intervention with horses using
• 33:09
  this equipment, but he's also having the horses wear equipment so that they
• 33:15
  can measure their heart rate and so that we know how it's affecting the horses.
• 33:21
  Okay.
• 33:22
  So.
• 33:23
  All of our studies now too.
• 33:24
  The board has decided that not only when we fund human, the human side,
• 33:30
  we want to fund the horse side.
• 33:32
  So we want people to look at both.
• 33:35
  Absolutely.
• 33:35
  And part of it is that equine wellbeing piece which is
• 33:39
  Rupert Isaacson: where I wanted to go next.
• 33:41
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 33:41
  Okay.
• 33:42
  Now, but let me, I can get you there.
• 33:44
  Yeah, go ahead.
• 33:45
  And the sense that, again, Molly, being Molly and ahead of her time five years
• 33:52
  ago, she was like, I think we need to do an equine wellbeing committee
• 33:57
  and just really focus on how we can make our horses healthier and happier.
• 34:03
  So with that, she started the equine Wellbeing Committee and we
• 34:09
  implemented the five domains that.
• 34:13
  Dr.
• 34:13
  David Mahler and his associates had created so we were kind of a little
• 34:19
  bit of ahead of our time at, at that point in time too, because what
• 34:23
  Rupert Isaacson: are those five domains?
• 34:25
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 34:25
  I'd be glad to tell you.
• 34:26
  So one is, it's kind of similar to the dimensions that I was
• 34:30
  telling you about wellness.
• 34:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:32
  But they're five, which anyway, one is nutrition.
• 34:36
  The second one is physical environment.
• 34:38
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:39
  And three is general health concerns.
• 34:43
  Four is behavior, and the fifth is the mental state, which really, it
• 34:48
  all kind of comes together as far as the whole mental state aspect.
• 34:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 34:53
  But you know, it's really interesting because you come up and, and you
• 34:58
  know, we were just talking about writing lessons and things about
• 35:01
  how traditional things work.
• 35:02
  You have these.
• 35:04
  Strip pieces of land pasture, you put your horses on it and you think
• 35:08
  your horses are gonna be happy.
• 35:09
  Well, you know, that typically is not what wild horses are happy about.
• 35:15
  You know, they roamed around and land and the woods and the pastures, you know,
• 35:20
  and that's part of that whole physical environment is having that place for them
• 35:25
  to be able to roam and explore and, you know, look around, see obstacles, be in
• 35:32
  the shade, be in the sun, you know, that, that, you know, we don't deal with slope,
• 35:38
  Rupert Isaacson: deal with rocks, deal with different things under foot.
• 35:40
  Yeah, yeah, sure.
• 35:41
  Yeah.
• 35:42
  Different wildlife coming through.
• 35:43
  Yeah.
• 35:44
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 35:44
  Yeah.
• 35:44
  And what we do is just strip the land, put some grass on it, put 'em out there
• 35:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 35:49
  And a
• 35:49
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 35:49
  fence.
• 35:50
  You know, and they really need that stimulation
• 35:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm,
• 35:53
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 35:53
  enrichment piece.
• 35:54
  Mm.
• 35:54
  Sort of like what things I do with my dog, instead of just giving him
• 35:57
  my treat, I throw 'em around the room and make him hunt for him.
• 36:01
  Yeah.
• 36:01
  You know, as far as that's part of his enrichment that he gets.
• 36:04
  Yeah.
• 36:05
  So implementing those five domains and it's just part of it, kind of
• 36:10
  going back to the education piece.
• 36:12
  Okay, yeah.
• 36:13
  We have these five domains, but how do you put 'em in a practice?
• 36:16
  So again, that comes back to our piece of education you know, saying that here
• 36:24
  we go, that, you know, we have these five domains, but how do we implement them?
• 36:29
  How do we put 'em in the practical use?
• 36:31
  So that's, that's part of it.
• 36:36
  And we just had a webinar with a farm field, Fieldstone farm when
• 36:40
  I was just mentioning a while ago that they had a turnover in staff.
• 36:46
  So the new barn manager was like, okay, well before I go into the old routine,
• 36:53
  let's look at and evaluate our horses.
• 36:55
  And they had some horses that were sour biting, not happy.
• 37:00
  So they looked at all the five domains.
• 37:02
  They didn't realize it was, they didn't know it, it was the five domains,
• 37:07
  but it was and they made changes with their vet and their farrier.
• 37:14
  And sure enough, not only did it save 'em money, which is not always
• 37:20
  was, you know, a lot of people perk up when you say save them money.
• 37:23
  But yeah, their horses are happier.
• 37:27
  They're not biting anymore.
• 37:29
  They're not sour.
• 37:31
  They're, yeah, they're happy to do their jobs.
• 37:34
  They have horses that had like, had to have a extra training.
• 37:39
  Volunteer can be led now with an, you know, intermediate or new
• 37:45
  volunteer because they're, the horse is like, okay, let's go.
• 37:48
  I'm happy now.
• 37:50
  So I think that that piece too, of implementing this new research that's
• 37:57
  so, and it shouldn't be really new is all, well, 2020, that's five years ago.
• 38:02
  But implementing these pieces so that our horses are ha healthier and
• 38:07
  happier are gonna help all humans too.
• 38:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 38:11
  No, I, I so agree.
• 38:12
  I mean, one of the things which our organization is it's foundation for us
• 38:17
  is if the horse does not have wellbeing in itself, it cannot give wellbeing.
• 38:23
  To a human, it just can't I can't give wellbeing to you
• 38:28
  if I don't have wellbeing.
• 38:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 38:29
  Mm-hmm.
• 38:30
  So
• 38:30
  Rupert Isaacson: if I, you know, run myself ragged with jet lag,
• 38:33
  which I currently am, yeah.
• 38:36
  I have a limited ability to give to you if you let me sleep for, you
• 38:43
  know, a couple of days and, you know, get into my groove that goes up.
• 38:48
  But it's of course much more than this.
• 38:50
  And one of the things which I've often been a bit puzzled by in the past
• 38:58
  is because I grew up very much in the kind of hunting eventing world.
• 39:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 39:04
  I've, now I'm kind of known as this dressage guy because of the connection
• 39:09
  with collection and oxytocin, which helps people feel better and speak so.
• 39:15
  I ended up coming in through the back door to dressage, but that's not
• 39:18
  where I began my equine life at all.
• 39:21
  And what we really emphasized was fitness and fitness wasn't just
• 39:27
  cardiovascular, it was tendons.
• 39:32
  So the whole frame of the horse had to stand up to, you know, planet earth.
• 39:38
  And it was also mental emotional, meaning that if you are out on a
• 39:45
  hunt somewhere, you know, and you end up in some funky situation, your
• 39:49
  horse has to be kind of like, yeah, sure, I can, I can deal with that.
• 39:51
  Yeah, yeah, no worries.
• 39:53
  Rather than, oh my god, it's, you know, a firetruck or it's
• 39:58
  something I haven't seen before.
• 39:59
  The horse is like, even if it's something I haven't seen before,
• 40:02
  I kind of trust you, my monkey, my sky monkey sitting on me.
• 40:07
  That you wouldn't put me in a position.
• 40:09
  That was unreasonable.
• 40:11
  So, okay, I'll, I'll give this a whirl.
• 40:14
  You know, and I was really amazed when I entered the therapeutic riding arena
• 40:20
  that this was not prioritized at all.
• 40:22
  None of these things were right.
• 40:24
  As long as all was required as the horse is quiet.
• 40:28
  Yeah.
• 40:28
  Right.
• 40:28
  And it didn't matter if he was limping.
• 40:30
  It didn't matter if he was sore in the back.
• 40:33
  It didn't matter if he was biting his handler.
• 40:35
  And frequently what I noticed was they would usually cut a break to the special
• 40:40
  needs person on their back, but they would take it out on the person who was leading.
• 40:45
  They had to put it somewhere.
• 40:46
  Right.
• 40:47
  And when I first began to ask therapeutic riding places about this,
• 40:53
  like, where's your fitness program?
• 40:55
  Where's your enrichment program?
• 40:56
  Where's your lunging and in-hand program?
• 41:00
  Where's your yoga program for the horse, effectively?
• 41:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:02
  They'd be like, F off.
• 41:05
  Like they would meet me with a kind of a, an aggression.
• 41:10
  And it was the same aggression that I got met by when I was
• 41:16
  dealing with the one-horse world of therapy with behavioral therapy.
• 41:19
  When I was like, well, this kid's obviously unhappy.
• 41:22
  Why don't we change something about what we're doing here?
• 41:25
  'cause if I was in a round pen with a horse and it was like trying to climb
• 41:29
  out through the window effectively the fans, which a lot of these kids do in
• 41:34
  those types of sessions, I'd change something because if I don't, I might die.
• 41:39
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 41:39
  Right?
• 41:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 41:39
  So, and then I get greeted with this kind of, well, you dunno
• 41:42
  what you're talking about.
• 41:43
  And you're not a professional.
• 41:44
  No, no, no.
• 41:44
  And I'm like, oh, I see.
• 41:46
  So you need to get aggressive with me now.
• 41:48
  Ooh, why do you get aggressive?
• 41:50
  Well, people get aggressive when they're afraid of something.
• 41:52
  What are you afraid of?
• 41:54
  You must know deep down that your shtick doesn't really work.
• 41:57
  So what's interesting to me is that that's now changing.
• 42:03
  I think it's fair to say that in the therapeutic equine assisted environment
• 42:07
  people are now much, much more concerned with equine assisted, sorry,
• 42:11
  with fitness and equine wellbeing.
• 42:14
  But there can still be a disconnect, I feel, because many people who get
• 42:24
  interested or attracted to equine assisted work, work don't necessarily
• 42:29
  come from very strong horse backgrounds.
• 42:32
  They might or they might not.
• 42:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 42:34
  They might come in with a set of philosophies about what horses
• 42:42
  are, think and feel, which might or might not be born out.
• 42:46
  And then suddenly people are in a sort of debate, whereas, as you say, you
• 42:52
  can bring it back to some very simple.
• 42:54
  Things, which is, are you okay in your gut?
• 42:57
  Are you okay in your living conditions?
• 42:59
  Do you have friends?
• 43:00
  Do you have some freedom of movement?
• 43:02
  Are you fit, are you subtle?
• 43:05
  Do you feel like good or do you feel like, ooh, stiff?
• 43:08
  Because of course our best therapy horses are best equine assisted horses.
• 43:11
  Are you usually gonna be seniors because they're the ones with
• 43:14
  the accrued experience that, you know, just like good professionals
• 43:18
  of any, you know, any species.
• 43:21
  So now that you are aware of this, are you taking it?
• 43:25
  Where are horses and Newmans taking it now?
• 43:28
  Those of us who know our work know that we are big on lunging in hand work and
• 43:34
  long reigning because we know that we can kind of reverse age and rehab messed up
• 43:40
  horses that get given as donation horses and, you know, we can often assuage
• 43:46
  their old injuries and help 'em out.
• 43:49
  Are you looking at this kind of thing as well?
• 43:51
  How are you developing, I guess, from this basic five things to further
• 43:57
  things to sort of try to ensure equine wellbeing as best you can?
• 44:03
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 44:03
  Yeah.
• 44:03
  With that said, and a little sidebar, Christina Wilkins does
• 44:07
  a course on the five domains that I've taken and I highly suggest it.
• 44:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Who is Christina Wilkins?
• 44:14
  Tell us about Christina Wilkins.
• 44:16
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 44:16
  She actually worked with David Mahler and she does horses and People magazine.
• 44:22
  She's in Australia.
• 44:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 44:24
  I'm looking her up right now.
• 44:25
  Chris, Christine Wilkins.
• 44:28
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 44:28
  Yes.
• 44:29
  And the reason she does a lot with equitation science.
• 44:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 44:35
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 44:35
  So you can probably find her, find her with that.
• 44:39
  And it's cr.
• 44:41
  I-S-T-I-N-A.
• 44:44
  She's a PhD candidate.
• 44:46
  But she's she, she really had, to me, she was like a, she's super smart.
• 44:52
  Okay.
• 44:53
  But Christina Wilkins does a five domains course that I highly suggest.
• 44:58
  And it's not that expensive.
• 45:00
  I think it's like maybe 120 or $140.
• 45:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 45:04
  But,
• 45:04
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 45:04
  and after taking it, I was, there's just so much material in it, I
• 45:11
  kind of feel like I need to go back and take it again because she does
• 45:14
  an excellent job of teaching it.
• 45:16
  But
• 45:16
  I'm
• 45:16
  Rupert Isaacson: looking it up right now.
• 45:18
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 45:18
  Yeah.
• 45:18
  So the, and I think that's the other thing too, Ru is about, about
• 45:24
  why we do podcasts and we want.
• 45:29
  Like, we don't want to like say we are the only ones who are doing this.
• 45:33
  Right?
• 45:33
  We want everyone to know, these are really great people, these are great resources.
• 45:38
  You know, sharing and caring and just letting the world know all
• 45:43
  these different places that you can find information and research.
• 45:47
  But I think part of what we do now is try to implement these through our webinars.
• 45:54
  For example, we just had one yesterday about Mustangs.
• 45:57
  She was great.
• 45:58
  And I think a lot of it is like with Mustang training,
• 46:02
  it, you have to watch behavior.
• 46:04
  Mm-hmm.
• 46:05
  And not a lot of sort of, kind of taking a step back.
• 46:09
  A not a lot of people watch behavior and maybe you, you and I grew up around
• 46:15
  horses, so we kind of, I don't know about you, but I think I'm was like very
• 46:20
  regimental, like, you know, British.
• 46:24
  Kind of drill teams, this go fox hunting, you go show hunting, blah, blah, blah.
• 46:29
  I really didn't.
• 46:29
  Oh yeah, I know.
• 46:30
  Rupert Isaacson: I totally grew up with all that.
• 46:31
  Yeah.
• 46:31
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 46:31
  Yeah.
• 46:32
  And I really didn't get into watching behavior.
• 46:35
  I really started more, most of that journey in the past 20 years.
• 46:39
  But I feel like that's a piece of horsemanship that all of us should
• 46:43
  have, and all of us should know.
• 46:46
  And that's like part of, part of our educational pieces
• 46:51
  is to have that out there.
• 46:53
  So we do that through webinars.
• 46:55
  We also do that through our conference for the example,
• 46:59
  this new our conference in 2026.
• 47:02
  We're having our first pre-conference horse fair day that is all about
• 47:07
  being at the barn and doing things with horses on February 27th.
• 47:13
  And then
• 47:14
  Rupert Isaacson: on what's that gonna.
• 47:16
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:16
  It's in Kissimmee, Orlando, Florida.
• 47:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 47:19
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:19
  Yeah.
• 47:19
  Rupert Isaacson: And when in, when in February?
• 47:21
  Is that
• 47:22
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:22
  It's February 27th is our pre-conference.
• 47:25
  Okay.
• 47:25
  And then our conference is actually February 28th and March 1st.
• 47:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
• 47:30
  I'm gonna be in Florida around that time.
• 47:32
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:32
  You need to come.
• 47:33
  Rupert Isaacson: I will absolutely come.
• 47:34
  Yeah.
• 47:35
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:35
  And our keynote speaker is Dr.
• 47:37
  Steven Peters.
• 47:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, wonderful
• 47:40
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:40
  man.
• 47:40
  Yeah, he did our excellent job being a keynote speaker for his
• 47:44
  last year to the point where I was like, who do we get to top that?
• 47:47
  So asked him to come back.
• 47:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Excellent, excellent choice.
• 47:51
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 47:51
  And and we have a track we have three tracks.
• 47:55
  One is for researchers or research, or current research.
• 47:58
  One is on equine wellbeing.
• 48:01
  All dedicated to equine wellbeing.
• 48:02
  And then their other one in the middle is program.
• 48:05
  So sometimes, you know, we have things that are just for program
• 48:09
  people or trying a new program or don't really fit in research but
• 48:14
  don't fit in equine wellbeing.
• 48:15
  So I kind of in the middle.
• 48:17
  So that's where we kind of dedicate our, our work.
• 48:21
  And there's some programs I think that we are going to start to develop and
• 48:26
  work with other organizations that are working with horses with youth.
• 48:32
  So hopefully those will be they're just in the, the creative stage.
• 48:37
  We'll see How, can you tell us
• 48:39
  Rupert Isaacson: who some of those are?
• 48:39
  Or do you want to keep that quiet for now?
• 48:42
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 48:42
  We'll wait and see how it goes.
• 48:44
  Okay.
• 48:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 48:45
  Fine.
• 48:45
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 48:45
  But yeah.
• 48:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you, you are really building up this equine
• 48:50
  wellbeing piece, by the way, I have a, I have to do a shout out to her.
• 48:54
  We, I have a proposition for you, for a keynote maybe for the next year.
• 48:59
  Okay.
• 48:59
  Joel Dunlap.
• 49:01
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 49:01
  Okay.
• 49:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Square Peg Foundation, California the last 25 years mostly
• 49:08
  rehabbing thoroughbreds off the track and polo ponies putting 'em
• 49:11
  through a classical in hand and long reigning program and getting
• 49:17
  the most extraordinary results.
• 49:19
  And now they've got two campuses near San Francisco and now they are one of the big
• 49:24
  mental health providers for for mental health in San Mateo County, which is.
• 49:29
  Silicon Valley.
• 49:30
  Yeah.
• 49:30
  But she started as a 16-year-old single mom with a special needs kit.
• 49:34
  Wow.
• 49:34
  Wow.
• 49:34
  Working in the shi end of the racing industry, working on the tracks.
• 49:39
  Ah, yeah.
• 49:39
  So like, she knows she's, she's paid her dues.
• 49:43
  And Joel one of my, she's one of my great heroes, but she
• 49:47
  really has all the pieces I feel.
• 49:49
  And she's spoken alongside people like Dr.
• 49:53
  Steven Peters and so on before, but I, yeah, I'd recommend her to you anyway.
• 49:57
  That's, that's okay.
• 49:57
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 49:57
  Great.
• 49:58
  Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
• 50:01
  I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
• 50:06
  bit about the old master system.
• 50:09
  of dressage training.
• 50:10
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 50:19
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 50:25
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 50:32
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 50:35
  Intrigued?
• 50:36
  Like to know more?
• 50:37
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 50:42
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 50:44
  Take it from there.
• 50:45
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 50:45
  I wanted to mention too, you is that we do have an innovative, and I know this
• 50:49
  might be dated because this is gonna be on YouTube, but currently it means it's
• 50:55
  Rupert Isaacson: evergreen, not, not dated.
• 50:57
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 50:57
  Yes.
• 50:57
  Excuse me.
• 50:57
  Yes.
• 50:58
  Evergreen is one of our favorite words.
• 51:00
  And it's we have an innovative grant that's due December 5th.
• 51:05
  That is all about the horses, right.
• 51:07
  And just horses.
• 51:09
  So, that's something that we're trying to also bring about that we want to
• 51:15
  not only do, like I said, when we do a call for human side, we want
• 51:20
  people to look at the horse side.
• 51:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 51:22
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 51:22
  But we also are trying to do things for horses strictly.
• 51:27
  And part of this innovative grant, it's an honor.
• 51:31
  This great man who passed away about, broke my heart.
• 51:34
  He was on our board, Dr.
• 51:35
  Mark Chrisman who worked for Zoetis Equine.
• 51:39
  And Zoetis helped us with this grant by sponsoring it with 5,000.
• 51:44
  And then we raised the other five from other people friends of Mark's or those
• 51:50
  who are just excited about horses.
• 51:52
  But.
• 51:53
  You know, part of that is that we, the project is really based on the five
• 51:58
  domains and how to incorporate that five domains and techniques or applications
• 52:05
  with daily assessment of equines.
• 52:08
  So how do you implement those five domains and how can you make sure
• 52:13
  that you're kinda assessing that?
• 52:15
  So that's part of the 10,000 innovative grant for this year in 2026.
• 52:21
  But I'm sure we'll be having excuse me in 2025 getting ahead of myself.
• 52:26
  But I'm sure we'll have some in 2026 too.
• 52:30
  We haven't made a decision yet about what our big grant will be for but we'll
• 52:34
  have the, right now our plan is to have 150,000 for for a big grant for horses and
• 52:42
  humans, and another 10,000 for innovative.
• 52:45
  In 2026.
• 52:47
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 52:48
  So let's look ahead Yeah.
• 52:50
  In a perfect world, right, you would be sitting on some millions mm-hmm.
• 52:56
  And you'd be able to give grants that are much more significant that way.
• 53:04
  How do you envisage growing towards that point?
• 53:08
  And then how do you, once you get to that point, and I'm sure you will,
• 53:13
  'cause I've watched you guys grow and I I can absolutely see the day
• 53:17
  clearly when Pebbles is, you know, giving a million quid to somebody.
• 53:21
  Oh, I love it.
• 53:21
  And, and I mean, and up so on the sidelines, pomp on me.
• 53:25
  Thank you.
• 53:26
  Because, you know, because we need this, we need this.
• 53:29
  Where these things get tricky, as you know, is that kind of
• 53:33
  money can end up being very much sequestered by the academics and.
• 53:37
  Then it gets ivory towered rather than looking to those people that are
• 53:42
  doing the really innovative stuff.
• 53:44
  I'll put myself out there for that.
• 53:45
  You know, when we were first new on the scene, I mean the, the sort of existing
• 53:54
  powers that b 'cause they're still there.
• 53:58
  Within the therapeutic writing thing, just try to like blow us out of the
• 54:03
  water like they reacted with hostility.
• 54:06
  It was shocking actually.
• 54:09
  As an autism dad, I was like, wow, you're supposed to care about people like my son.
• 54:13
  You don't care about people like my son.
• 54:15
  You actually just care about, oh, okay.
• 54:19
  Good to know.
• 54:20
  Right.
• 54:20
  Now that you're a gatekeeper and at a certain point you're going to be.
• 54:26
  Passing that hat to another gatekeeper.
• 54:29
  How are you gonna ensure that when you reach that point of giving those really
• 54:34
  big grants, which let's face it, the the field needs, because also the more
• 54:40
  money, the more legitimization Right.
• 54:42
  You know?
• 54:43
  Right.
• 54:43
  Very impressed by, you know, multimillion dollar grants.
• 54:47
  How are you gonna ensure that the cutting edge, that the innovative, that the
• 54:51
  small person doing something kind of cool over there doesn't get like, bumped out?
• 54:59
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 54:59
  I think part of it is, and you know, like if I were to, if we had this philosophical
• 55:05
  discussion, like if we received a million dollars, would just for grant making,
• 55:12
  Rupert Isaacson: mm,
• 55:13
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 55:13
  would we just give out a million dollar grant?
• 55:17
  I, I think it might be helpful.
• 55:20
  If we did a large grant, but I don't want to, I want we, excuse me.
• 55:26
  We want to make sure that we support people coming through academics
• 55:33
  who are working on their PhD.
• 55:35
  I would love to have funds that I could do scholarships for people working on
• 55:40
  their dissertation and have a smaller grant fund for them, or have those
• 55:44
  smaller grants for innovative studies.
• 55:47
  So I don't want to put everything in one bread basket.
• 55:52
  I, I really feel like we need to have like, multiple grants, multiple sizes.
• 55:57
  I agree.
• 55:58
  So we don't like blow people out of the water.
• 56:02
  Also, also don't want it
• 56:02
  Rupert Isaacson: all to be in academia.
• 56:03
  Right.
• 56:04
  Because what the academics are doing is they're measuring the stuff that
• 56:08
  innovative people are already doing.
• 56:10
  Like Right.
• 56:10
  Good science follows good practice.
• 56:13
  Right?
• 56:13
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 56:13
  Correct.
• 56:14
  Rupert Isaacson: Rather than someone saying, I've got a
• 56:15
  theory and I wanna prove it.
• 56:17
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 56:17
  Yeah, and I think part of it is, is the culture we really want.
• 56:22
  We're really working on a culture where people work together, and that's
• 56:26
  why part of it is we want people from multi-disciplines to work together.
• 56:33
  So it's not just in the equine studies or not just in the exercise physiology.
• 56:41
  Like they work together to come out with the best income for
• 56:45
  everybody, not just that one area.
• 56:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 56:50
  I mean, I, I, I put myself forward for this with the podcast that I'm doing right
• 56:53
  now with you, just full disclosure ads.
• 56:56
  Those of you who are listening or watching.
• 56:59
  Horse Boy Foundation, which is us, has never received a grant from horses
• 57:03
  And Humans Research Foundation doesn't mean we won't apply at some point.
• 57:06
  Doesn't mean that pebbles also might not turn us down at some point.
• 57:10
  And I might still be friends with her if she, if she does that.
• 57:13
  But it, let me just
• 57:14
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 57:14
  give you this disclaimer.
• 57:15
  I don't have a vote.
• 57:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, yeah.
• 57:17
  But I'll still, I'll still be passive aggressive with you.
• 57:20
  I mean, come on.
• 57:20
  Don't deny me that opportunity.
• 57:23
  Please don't.
• 57:23
  But you know what I'm saying.
• 57:24
  So, so, so the whole point I'm bringing this up is that, yeah.
• 57:27
  We created this podcast not just so that we could promote
• 57:31
  people that do what we do.
• 57:34
  We are always actively looking for people who do something else.
• 57:39
  That's cool.
• 57:40
  Yeah.
• 57:40
  What can we learn, you know?
• 57:42
  Right.
• 57:43
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 57:43
  And we're not in our own little bubble.
• 57:46
  That's the thing that, that's great about you.
• 57:48
  And
• 57:49
  Rupert Isaacson: protecting all Yeah.
• 57:49
  Yeah.
• 57:49
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 57:49
  And protect.
• 57:50
  Yeah.
• 57:50
  And protecting.
• 57:51
  We wanna share, we wanna help everybody.
• 57:54
  I kind of say sometimes, and I don't know if this would float in Europe
• 57:58
  or not, that we're Switzerland, because I don't have, we don't,
• 58:02
  are not vested in a certain breed.
• 58:05
  I'm not invested in a certain discipline.
• 58:07
  I'm not invested in a certain organization.
• 58:10
  I'm neutral.
• 58:11
  We're just here to help everybody through.
• 58:13
  That's what research's
• 58:15
  Rupert Isaacson: always said.
• 58:15
  While it sits on the money, that's why everybody hates them.
• 58:17
  Sorry, I'm just, I think you're a little bit better.
• 58:21
  I didn't, but they made great chocolate.
• 58:23
  Great chocolate.
• 58:24
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 58:24
  If there's a European culture piece that or not.
• 58:27
  I wish we had a lot of money so I could be like, switch water.
• 58:30
  I think you'll
• 58:31
  Rupert Isaacson: though, I, I, I've, I've watched you grow
• 58:33
  from really small beginnings.
• 58:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:36
  I have every faith that.
• 58:40
  20 years from now, you'll be giving out multiple grants.
• 58:47
  Much, much bigger, but you won't be the only ones.
• 58:51
  I think that what will have happened by then is you will have mentored some other
• 58:57
  organizations to come in and perhaps look after some other areas and the,
• 59:04
  the pool of money as our work becomes more legitimized through the work, you
• 59:11
  know, that you guys have done as well.
• 59:15
  It just attracts more, more dos.
• 59:17
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 59:17
  Yeah.
• 59:18
  I will say though, we we're the only organization that funds
• 59:22
  strictly horses and humans.
• 59:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 59:25
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 59:25
  There, there are organizations that do horse research, specific research
• 59:30
  organizations that do multiple animals and horses are included.
• 59:35
  Or courses in humans are included in other type of things, but yeah.
• 59:40
  And I would hope that, I'm hoping that that time clock is a little faster.
• 59:46
  Like I'm hoping that it would be
• 59:47
  Rupert Isaacson: nice, wouldn't it?
• 59:48
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 59:48
  Yeah.
• 59:48
  In the next couple of years, we have enough funds to be able
• 59:51
  to do multiple grants because, because I'm gonna need more staff.
• 59:57
  Because right now I'm the only full-time staff.
• 1:00:00
  Terry Boggs is our operations manager.
• 1:00:02
  She's been with the organization for 20 years, does a fabulous job.
• 1:00:06
  She does all the grant applications and she, yeah, so I'm gonna need,
• 1:00:11
  I'm gonna need more staff, so that's gonna take some more money.
• 1:00:15
  But all of our funds go strictly to grants and operations.
• 1:00:21
  So yeah.
• 1:00:22
  And the other thing I need to tell you, which we didn't
• 1:00:25
  talk about as far as programs.
• 1:00:27
  Is the fact that there's not a lot of access to research.
• 1:00:31
  So you can go to our website and see the research that we funded, but underneath
• 1:00:36
  our research tab, we have a link to our H-H-H-R-F Science Open Collection.
• 1:00:44
  So we have working with science open and created a place that all
• 1:00:51
  for open research that has horse and human interaction as well as
• 1:00:56
  equine wellbeing research articles.
• 1:00:59
  So they're, right now, currently there's 1,158, but that changes daily.
• 1:01:05
  'cause it, there's an algorithm and it updates overnight, but
• 1:01:09
  that's open research again, that you can go to that collection and
• 1:01:15
  search for specific things on.
• 1:01:18
  Like, the first one that I just pulled out was Hippotherapy and Cerebral Palsy.
• 1:01:23
  So, or you can look at equine assisted Growth and learning model, or the
• 1:01:29
  effect the effect of hippotherapy with children with cerebral palsy.
• 1:01:33
  I just mentioned that, you know, there's different ones depending on what you're
• 1:01:38
  looking for, but they're in chronological order as far as when they came out.
• 1:01:43
  I, I think we did it back for 10 years when we started the collection.
• 1:01:48
  So that right there is a free, again, a free resource we are offering to everyone
• 1:01:54
  and everyone around the globe accesses it.
• 1:01:57
  I get a monthly report.
• 1:01:59
  It's kind of cool to see who is looking at it in which countries
• 1:02:07
  Rupert Isaacson: what do you think is the great.
• 1:02:12
  Neglected or under observed, underserved area of equine assisted
• 1:02:18
  horses and humans work right now.
• 1:02:23
  Like what do you think?
• 1:02:24
  If you had a perfect world and you could like say, you know, I'd
• 1:02:27
  really like to shine a spotlight there, where would it be?
• 1:02:32
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:02:32
  This is really biased.
• 1:02:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Hey, we're all subjective.
• 1:02:36
  That's fine.
• 1:02:37
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:02:37
  I really would like to do some big study on Parkinson's.
• 1:02:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:02:42
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:02:42
  And I would would love to do maybe a matching grant if I could get with Michael
• 1:02:47
  j Fox's foundation and do something there.
• 1:02:50
  I'd love to do something perhaps even with Christopher Reeves Foundation.
• 1:02:55
  They don't fund research, but they could fund the program piece if we
• 1:02:59
  could do the research on MS and writing.
• 1:03:03
  I'd like to see there's some smaller studies going on with dementia.
• 1:03:08
  Okay.
• 1:03:08
  Personally, I like to also see people who have cancer and who
• 1:03:14
  are going through remission.
• 1:03:16
  Some programs calling like the Pink Ladies et cetera.
• 1:03:20
  But I think the power of the horse there.
• 1:03:24
  I like to see something done with the volunteers.
• 1:03:28
  Like, why do people volunteer with equine assistive programs versus
• 1:03:33
  their library down the street or the YMCA down the street?
• 1:03:38
  Does he get to hang
• 1:03:38
  Rupert Isaacson: out with ponies?
• 1:03:39
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:03:39
  Yeah.
• 1:03:40
  Yeah.
• 1:03:41
  So what is that pony benefit?
• 1:03:42
  Why is that?
• 1:03:43
  I mean, come on.
• 1:03:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:03:44
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:03:44
  Yeah.
• 1:03:45
  So why is that pony helping them in a way that they didn't get it somewhere else?
• 1:03:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
• 1:03:50
  Exactly.
• 1:03:50
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:03:50
  I, you know, I talked to a group yesterday that deals with high school students.
• 1:03:55
  I, I know that the barn saved me during high school because
• 1:04:01
  I didn't really, just wasn't my thing, but the barn was my place.
• 1:04:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Meaning you, you weren't the homecoming queen.
• 1:04:09
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:04:09
  I was not.
• 1:04:10
  Mm, I was not
• 1:04:11
  Rupert Isaacson: actually, I wasn't,
• 1:04:12
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:04:12
  I wasn't, I wasn't the nerd, but I wasn't
• 1:04:16
  Rupert Isaacson: the queen.
• 1:04:16
  Yeah, exactly.
• 1:04:17
  And it, it's so weird, isn't it?
• 1:04:18
  Within that middle school and high school experience, which seems to scar people for
• 1:04:23
  the next 50 years unless you fitted one of those prescribed roles of which they're
• 1:04:27
  only like five you're kind of effed up.
• 1:04:32
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:04:32
  Well, I think, and even, and if you
• 1:04:33
  Rupert Isaacson: did fit one of those roles, you are also effed
• 1:04:35
  up because, you know, yeah.
• 1:04:38
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:04:38
  I didn't learn, I didn't, I wasn't that traditional learner.
• 1:04:42
  I was experiential learner and I was stuck in this desk and that
• 1:04:46
  just wasn't thriving for me.
• 1:04:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 1:04:49
  The
• 1:04:49
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:04:49
  barn was, it was experiential learning at its desk.
• 1:04:53
  But I would love to do a study as far as like why kids and it
• 1:04:58
  kept, keeps you outta trouble.
• 1:05:00
  Like the discipline that you learn the responsibility working with
• 1:05:04
  horses versus maybe basketball or field hockey or football or whatever.
• 1:05:12
  And, you know, what, are there any differences there in the sport?
• 1:05:18
  And those shall I,
• 1:05:19
  Rupert Isaacson: shall I throw my 2 cents in there because, go
• 1:05:21
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:05:21
  ahead.
• 1:05:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:05:22
  So if you read the old Masters from.
• 1:05:26
  The real old master.
• 1:05:27
  The first old master is a guy called Ki Cooley, who's writing in th 1350,
• 1:05:31
  I think BC in Nineveh, in Babylon.
• 1:05:34
  And that's how we get our first exercises in flying changes and things like that.
• 1:05:37
  But it's very fragmented what we have from him because it was written
• 1:05:41
  on clay tablets that shattered.
• 1:05:43
  So people have pieced together what they can piece together, but the first
• 1:05:46
  full text that we know is Xenophon.
• 1:05:49
  And that's quite a lot later.
• 1:05:51
  Actually.
• 1:05:51
  It's 400 BC so it's thousands of years actually, after the whole riding dressy
• 1:05:58
  system, you know, got established.
• 1:06:01
  And he's learning it because he xenophon's Athenian, but he goes to Persia as a,
• 1:06:08
  as a mercenary, and he ends up on the losing side and he has to get home.
• 1:06:13
  And he learns all his horsemanship and all his cavalry stuff there,
• 1:06:17
  and he brings it back to Athens.
• 1:06:19
  He survives.
• 1:06:20
  He writes a book, and what he says is, if you really want to get control of yourself
• 1:06:28
  emotionally, particularly as a hotheaded young adult training horses to a high
• 1:06:37
  level is a really good way to do this.
• 1:06:39
  Because if you lose control of your emotions, you lose the horse.
• 1:06:45
  You could lose your life.
• 1:06:47
  And you certainly won't get the job done.
• 1:06:51
  And he emphasizes, even though he's a mercenary, he emphasizes kindness.
• 1:06:58
  So interesting.
• 1:06:59
  And he then goes on to become, okay.
• 1:07:02
  So there's other reasons why Zenon is famous.
• 1:07:05
  He's also the right.
• 1:07:06
  The, some people say he's the founder of Stoic philosophy.
• 1:07:10
  Other people say he's not.
• 1:07:11
  But let's say he's a philosopher and he's best mates with who his best friend is.
• 1:07:17
  Plato Who?
• 1:07:18
  And they're both students of who, they're both students of Socrates, you know, so
• 1:07:23
  you've got this dude coming out saying, lads, if you wanna like, get control
• 1:07:27
  of your, your shit you might wanna look at this kind of horse training thing.
• 1:07:31
  'cause it will force you to
• 1:07:36
  get out of your own arss.
• 1:07:38
  And then much later you have P Veel and to Veel in Renaissance
• 1:07:44
  Barak France writing about the same time that Shakespeare is writing.
• 1:07:49
  And he says to the French King.
• 1:07:52
  You know what Sya our aristocracy is out of control.
• 1:07:57
  Our young men just kill each other in deals, which means that the economics
• 1:08:02
  of the estates that they inherit just get fragmented and fragmented,
• 1:08:05
  and that's not good for anybody.
• 1:08:07
  And then if they survive that, what do they do?
• 1:08:09
  They go on to fight either religious wars or civil wars against the crown.
• 1:08:13
  You know, we are never going to rival Spain, our neighbor to the south where
• 1:08:19
  I happen to be sitting right now.
• 1:08:21
  Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  With all that money coming in from the Americas, unless we can get control
• 1:08:26
  of our ruling class, what I propose Siah, is that we set up four schools
• 1:08:33
  within France of horsemanship for young aristocrats to chill them the
• 1:08:39
  F out and get them to actually get away from their own egos a little bit.
• 1:08:46
  And the French king goes for it.
• 1:08:49
  Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  And that's why we have all of these French words.
• 1:08:53
  That's why we have dressage and pf and sage and, and trave and all these words.
• 1:09:00
  Right?
• 1:09:00
  It's because they kind of put a nationalistic stamp on it, even
• 1:09:04
  though the thing is actually invented like thousands of years
• 1:09:06
  earlier in where Asia meets Europe.
• 1:09:09
  So what's interesting with what you're saying is that there is a
• 1:09:13
  longstanding tradition of horsemanship and the humanities, which I think
• 1:09:18
  hasn't been looked at for a while.
• 1:09:20
  Yes.
• 1:09:20
  Right.
• 1:09:21
  And when you're dealing with like at-risk youth, gang youth, yes.
• 1:09:25
  People survive.
• 1:09:26
  The, the lady I talked about earlier, Joel Dunlap, square peg Foundation,
• 1:09:31
  big with autism, but where she cut her teeth was with runaway prostitutes from
• 1:09:35
  the Tenderloin in, in San Francisco.
• 1:09:39
  And dealing with these girls, bringing their gang fights into the.
• 1:09:45
  And she had to step in a couple of times when people were genuinely trying
• 1:09:49
  to kill each other and say, listen, we're trying to help a pony out here.
• 1:09:55
  Can we not, you know, look at something else.
• 1:09:58
  And people, and they did.
• 1:10:00
  So I'm, I'm wondering if that thing with Yeah.
• 1:10:04
  Horses and humans and the humanities.
• 1:10:07
  Have you got anything up your sleeve with that or are you just looking at it, or?
• 1:10:10
  Yeah,
• 1:10:11
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:10:11
  well no, I love that whole concept about kindness because I feel like
• 1:10:15
  in this world right now, we're missing kindness and empathy.
• 1:10:19
  Rupert Isaacson: So true
• 1:10:20
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:10:20
  in this country.
• 1:10:21
  Especially but I, I would love to do something and you know, that's
• 1:10:26
  why I'm like, when you asked me which research, I'm like, oh, I'd
• 1:10:29
  love to, you know, they just cut taking the Mustangs out of prison.
• 1:10:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Prison.
• 1:10:35
  I just heard this myself.
• 1:10:36
  Yeah.
• 1:10:36
  And
• 1:10:36
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:10:36
  I'm so sad about that.
• 1:10:38
  'cause I would've loved to have research on that.
• 1:10:41
  I would love to have.
• 1:10:42
  Foster kids and, and horses.
• 1:10:46
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:10:46
  I, if I had a, a billion dollars, I'd set up a ranch right now and
• 1:10:51
  put, have a foster kid program.
• 1:10:54
  'cause those kids fall through the system and it's horrible.
• 1:10:58
  I, I think I'm wishing a
• 1:11:00
  Rupert Isaacson: billion dollars on you right now.
• 1:11:01
  Watch my head.
• 1:11:02
  Okay.
• 1:11:02
  Thank you.
• 1:11:03
  There it goes.
• 1:11:03
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:11:03
  I So billion dollars
• 1:11:04
  Rupert Isaacson: for pebbles,
• 1:11:05
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:11:05
  so we could put that, those kids on a ranch and have that
• 1:11:10
  environment to be able to out.
• 1:11:12
  We need
• 1:11:13
  Rupert Isaacson: 10 of those ranches in every state is
• 1:11:15
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:11:15
  what we Oh my gosh.
• 1:11:16
  We do.
• 1:11:17
  You know, and it's, you know, going back to like, just the whole fact that people
• 1:11:22
  get involved with drugs and alcohol.
• 1:11:26
  Like if they just were at the barn with horses.
• 1:11:30
  It would just be a different world.
• 1:11:32
  What do you mean
• 1:11:32
  Rupert Isaacson: alcohol?
• 1:11:33
  Sorry, you go.
• 1:11:37
  But this is organic.
• 1:11:38
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:11:38
  Yeah.
• 1:11:38
  But you know, it's just that, that purpose.
• 1:11:40
  But I do, there's so many different research studies that
• 1:11:44
  we could do, how horses help all different types of populations.
• 1:11:48
  But number one, I think we also need to go back to researching the horse.
• 1:11:54
  And I think behavior is one thing, looking at that and help.
• 1:11:58
  But also if you were looking at programs too, I think equine assisted
• 1:12:06
  learning, which right now is hardened.
• 1:12:11
  At least this country, because we can't decide on a definition.
• 1:12:15
  We don't know what exactly it's, is it coaching, is it education,
• 1:12:20
  is it this or is it that?
• 1:12:22
  Who's qualified?
• 1:12:22
  Who has the criteria?
• 1:12:24
  And I don't think there's a specific things that are kind
• 1:12:29
  of right, because education
• 1:12:31
  Rupert Isaacson: by its very definition is a very broad term, right?
• 1:12:34
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:12:34
  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:12:36
  You know, so you know, at one, when I was at St.
• 1:12:40
  Andrew Andrew's University, we used to call it therapeutic riding.
• 1:12:43
  It was a degree in that, but I was like, no, we're gonna do horsemanship.
• 1:12:46
  'cause I want them to know all about horses, not just riding.
• 1:12:52
  It needs to be all encompassing.
• 1:12:55
  And I think part of, we're missing a little bit of that too with our
• 1:12:59
  current riding programs because.
• 1:13:02
  You know, we had to brush a horse, get him ready, unt attack 'em, take care of 'em.
• 1:13:08
  You got in trouble if you let sweat marks on 'em.
• 1:13:10
  Like you, you had to take care of your horse.
• 1:13:12
  Yeah.
• 1:13:13
  But now you just show up to the barn and you get on your horse, you do a
• 1:13:16
  LA lesson, and you're out of there.
• 1:13:18
  And I think we're missing that whole, you know, there's many
• 1:13:22
  articles about the barn, rats.
• 1:13:24
  You know, we just,
• 1:13:25
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:13:25
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:13:25
  Used to hang, I used to hang out all day Saturday at the, at the barn.
• 1:13:30
  We,
• 1:13:30
  Rupert Isaacson: we all did.
• 1:13:31
  You know, you know what, what, what's so weird about that is that of course
• 1:13:34
  we've entered into a conversation, which probably needed to happen, of those of us
• 1:13:42
  who were barn rats sometimes got abused.
• 1:13:45
  However, I would say that when those situations came my way, I could
• 1:13:53
  discern better in a barn situation.
• 1:13:59
  Than I could in say, a school situation or a choir situation or other things
• 1:14:05
  that I would, institutions that I was put into, because the horse
• 1:14:09
  always gave one perspective, right?
• 1:14:11
  The horse, like dogs or whatever, you know, would very quickly pick
• 1:14:15
  up on if things were not cool.
• 1:14:17
  Um mm-hmm.
• 1:14:18
  And if one looked to one's horse, if one looked to one's dog, one could often
• 1:14:23
  have a great barometer as a vulnerable tween that maybe this is not so cool.
• 1:14:30
  Whereas in say, choir or rugby club or wherever, there might
• 1:14:35
  not have been that barometer.
• 1:14:38
  Animal intelligence animal emotional intelligence.
• 1:14:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:14:41
  I think, you know, what I was trying to get to there with Zenon and Pelle and
• 1:14:45
  these guys was they're really talking about emotional intelligence, right?
• 1:14:49
  They're saying,
• 1:14:50
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:14:50
  yeah,
• 1:14:50
  Rupert Isaacson: right.
• 1:14:54
  What I would be very excited to see with horses and humans Research
• 1:14:58
  Foundation is ex explorations into emotional intelligence.
• 1:15:05
  Mm.
• 1:15:05
  Human and horse.
• 1:15:08
  Because I do think that, well, I don't think we, I think you and I both
• 1:15:12
  know, and I think most of the people we're preaching to the choir here.
• 1:15:15
  I think most, most of the viewers and, and listeners know that a lot
• 1:15:20
  of our emotional intelligence we got from horses and dogs mm-hmm.
• 1:15:27
  And perhaps wildlife as well, if we were lucky enough to be around those.
• 1:15:31
  Yeah.
• 1:15:31
  When it's just humans, it's a tall order because you don't have that neutral
• 1:15:38
  what's, what's the word, dispassionate.
• 1:15:41
  Not looking at coming down in favor of one or the other.
• 1:15:45
  Emotionally, horses are so amazing that way because we've
• 1:15:50
  used them to commit acts of great sociopathic atrocity on each other.
• 1:15:57
  Conquest happened on the back of a horse ships as well.
• 1:16:00
  Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  You know, but the horse didn't go out there saying, you know what I want to do?
• 1:16:04
  I want kill everybody.
• 1:16:06
  These monkeys from the Pacific to the Mediterranean.
• 1:16:10
  Let's say you're in Mongolia, you know, in the 14th century under, you know, Genghis
• 1:16:13
  Kahan or something, you know, the horse.
• 1:16:16
  They're like, I don't know.
• 1:16:17
  No, this, this monkey on top and you know, I'm supposed to go there
• 1:16:20
  and I'm supposed to go there.
• 1:16:22
  They lend you their power, but you could use the horse to heal in the same way
• 1:16:30
  that you can use the horse to harm.
• 1:16:32
  The horse is then innocent in that.
• 1:16:35
  However, we, I think we all know which one the horse would prefer, you know?
• 1:16:39
  You know, if, I think if you interviewed a horse and like put the microphones at,
• 1:16:43
  so, equ Equ would you, would you rather go into a storm of Meek Cleavers and,
• 1:16:49
  and admittedly you love your human and you are innu to this and you're brave.
• 1:16:53
  Would you rather do that?
• 1:16:54
  Or would you rather help that kid over there?
• 1:16:58
  Have a nice time?
• 1:17:00
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:17:00
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:01
  Rupert Isaacson: I think we, I think we know what they'd say.
• 1:17:03
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:17:03
  Yeah.
• 1:17:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:17:04
  Or
• 1:17:04
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:17:04
  go eat grass.
• 1:17:06
  Maybe they don't even wanna be with a human.
• 1:17:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Maybe a bit of both, you know?
• 1:17:09
  Yeah.
• 1:17:10
  You know, I, I think back to my son, you know, Rowan, when he was still nonverbal
• 1:17:16
  and he would learn about life by sitting very, very, very close to horses and goats
• 1:17:24
  because that's what we happened to have.
• 1:17:25
  And watching the meat.
• 1:17:28
  And commenting on how they eat.
• 1:17:31
  And like he would get down on his haunches and really look and really comment on
• 1:17:37
  the, the noises and the rhythm and why did they eat that thing, but not that thing.
• 1:17:43
  And you know, the detail of it.
• 1:17:46
  So as you say, the horse can just graze and he's still gonna heal us.
• 1:17:50
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:17:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:17:52
  Yeah.
• 1:17:53
  And open your mind.
• 1:17:56
  It's a whole new experience.
• 1:17:58
  Rupert Isaacson: A hundred percent.
• 1:17:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:00
  Alright.
• 1:18:00
  Wow.
• 1:18:00
  So listen, pebbles, how do people contact you?
• 1:18:03
  How do people, how.
• 1:18:05
  Have the honor of being turned down by you when they, when
• 1:18:08
  they submit their research.
• 1:18:10
  Talk us through what, what the process is.
• 1:18:12
  I know you've got big grants, little grants, innovative grants and so on.
• 1:18:16
  So people obviously are listening to this and they're gonna think,
• 1:18:20
  okay, I'd like to put in a Grant.
• 1:18:22
  Pebbles and Horses and Humans Research Foundation.
• 1:18:24
  How do they do it?
• 1:18:25
  Where should they do it?
• 1:18:26
  What's, what's the mechanism?
• 1:18:28
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:18:28
  Okay, so typically we have our call for our big grant in February or March, and
• 1:18:35
  it's due in the middle of the summer.
• 1:18:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:18:37
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:18:37
  And the reason being is most of our scientific advisors are
• 1:18:43
  involved in higher education.
• 1:18:44
  So they're off, so they have time to evaluate those grants.
• 1:18:48
  And then we do our innovative grant call early summer around June.
• 1:18:54
  Sorry, I'm using terms that.
• 1:18:56
  Not everybody's on the same season.
• 1:18:58
  So it's in June or July, and it's usually due in December.
• 1:19:04
  Okay.
• 1:19:04
  And because it's so small, it's a smaller one, it's easier for them to go through.
• 1:19:09
  And so for example, I'm almost ready to award our $150 grant.
• 1:19:17
  We have the paperwork signed.
• 1:19:19
  We're just waiting on them to get their IRB completed.
• 1:19:22
  Rupert Isaacson: What's that?
• 1:19:23
  What's an IRB?
• 1:19:24
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:19:24
  It's, it's basically it's kind of an ethical board.
• 1:19:28
  For anybody who's doing research needs to get their grant approved and make
• 1:19:34
  sure that you're not doing anything.
• 1:19:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, right.
• 1:19:36
  The
• 1:19:36
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:19:36
  ethics, unical ethics.
• 1:19:37
  Yeah.
• 1:19:38
  On people.
• 1:19:39
  And then there's the iacuc, which is all about the animals.
• 1:19:43
  So they're just ethic boards for research.
• 1:19:46
  Rupert Isaacson: So lads, listening to this, watching this, you're gonna
• 1:19:48
  have to jump through some hoops.
• 1:19:49
  Sorry.
• 1:19:50
  Okay.
• 1:19:50
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:19:50
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:51
  And on our website, horses and humans.org
• 1:19:56
  under the research tab, we have the grants.
• 1:19:59
  We have how to fill it out.
• 1:20:01
  We have a video that explains how to fill it out.
• 1:20:05
  All of that information is right there for you.
• 1:20:08
  And then the way you contact me is my email address is ceo@horsesandhumans.org.
• 1:20:19
  Rupert Isaacson: D at horses and humans dot.
• 1:20:23
  Org.
• 1:20:24
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:20:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:20:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:20:27
  Yeah.
• 1:20:27
  Are you ready lads?
• 1:20:28
  Submit your proposals.
• 1:20:29
  Sorry.
• 1:20:30
  Pebbles, you might get a few more now after this podcast.
• 1:20:33
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:20:33
  That, that's great.
• 1:20:34
  We, we want great applications.
• 1:20:37
  We really want research that's gonna be groundbreaking.
• 1:20:41
  You know, we're all about rigorous research and making sure that
• 1:20:45
  we like, build upon each other.
• 1:20:48
  I mean, if you look at our research and how many times it's been cited,
• 1:20:52
  that's purpose of good research is so that it's built upon.
• 1:20:55
  But I don't wanna say to, I think that research that doesn't really, it's
• 1:21:02
  not, I don't wanna say fail because it's really difficult to say fail.
• 1:21:08
  It's really that you learn not to do this.
• 1:21:10
  But problem is we don't, one thing builds
• 1:21:12
  Rupert Isaacson: upon another thing.
• 1:21:13
  Yeah,
• 1:21:13
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:21:13
  yeah.
• 1:21:13
  But we don't discuss, we
• 1:21:14
  Rupert Isaacson: climb up on the bodies of our dead.
• 1:21:16
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:21:16
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:17
  But we don't discuss things that don't work.
• 1:21:20
  Why don't we, so somebody else, somebody, somebody else doesn't do that.
• 1:21:25
  Like, why don't we talk about things that we could improve?
• 1:21:28
  Or if this doesn't work, let me share it with you, Ruth, so you don't do this.
• 1:21:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:32
  Because I went down this path and it was wrong.
• 1:21:35
  So it, I, that's one of my, also, one of our projects that we hope to have
• 1:21:41
  is someplace that we could have like a
• 1:21:44
  Rupert Isaacson: virtual, you know, what I would love to see with that,
• 1:21:46
  which is a path that we all, I think we have all gone down in the horse world
• 1:21:51
  and it's been wrong, is factionalism.
• 1:21:54
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:21:56
  Anybody listening to this or watching this knows that,
• 1:22:02
  oh, there are certain things that hate horse boy.
• 1:22:07
  And there are, there are hostilities that, because we're dealing with humans
• 1:22:13
  here, we're dealing with monkeys.
• 1:22:15
  I don't think that should be rewarded.
• 1:22:19
  Now, that's an easy thing to say because how do you judge?
• 1:22:23
  How do you discern?
• 1:22:26
  But I do think that when the only way one can discern is if there
• 1:22:34
  seems to be an attempt to shut out a certain population or a certain group.
• 1:22:43
  For example, there are
• 1:22:47
  entities within the therapeutic writing community that I feel could be better.
• 1:22:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:54
  And that I've certainly come under attack from.
• 1:22:57
  Yeah.
• 1:22:58
  I wouldn't wish them to be knocked out of the game because
• 1:23:02
  I do see a bigger picture here.
• 1:23:05
  I know that some of the people, some of the practitioners, many of
• 1:23:09
  the practitioners who've come up under those, let's say hostile to
• 1:23:15
  me entities have still actually been able to engage in really meaningful
• 1:23:21
  dialogue with us, and we've been able to advance our whole field that way.
• 1:23:29
  So it's really about the advancing of the field.
• 1:23:31
  One of the things that I, I feel is that we'll all be dead, you know, relatively
• 1:23:36
  soon actually, on the scale of things.
• 1:23:39
  I mean, if you look at, you know, the Cretaceous era, that's relatively recent.
• 1:23:44
  If you look at the Baroque era, that's like really recent.
• 1:23:49
  If you look at World War ii, that's like yesterday.
• 1:23:53
  Yeah.
• 1:23:54
  So
• 1:23:57
  trying to be right isn't.
• 1:24:00
  The point here, right?
• 1:24:02
  The, the, the, the point is trying to advance the field.
• 1:24:07
  So what I would love to see is
• 1:24:13
  cross-culTurbeville, cross-disciplinary, yeah.
• 1:24:17
  Stuff being rewarded where people start to think, ah, instead of thinking
• 1:24:22
  about scarcity, instead of think people thinking about, oh, you know, if I
• 1:24:27
  get, I'm, I'm this organization and, you know, if I get a grant from horses
• 1:24:31
  and humans, then I'm legitimized.
• 1:24:33
  And that like delegitimizes those people over there.
• 1:24:36
  If there was always a cross-culTurbeville piece, a
• 1:24:47
  interdisciplinary piece required in every grant application.
• 1:24:52
  Like, who are you working with?
• 1:24:54
  Who are you working with that might even have a slightly opposing vision to you?
• 1:25:00
  And what are you doing with those people to advance the field?
• 1:25:04
  Then we know the field will accelerate.
• 1:25:06
  Right.
• 1:25:07
  But if we stay within our own silos,
• 1:25:10
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:25:10
  eh, eh, eh.
• 1:25:13
  Yeah.
• 1:25:15
  That's what we're hoping for is that we have lots of people from
• 1:25:20
  different departments working together.
• 1:25:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'll certainly do my damnedest to help that along.
• 1:25:28
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:25:28
  Well, thank you.
• 1:25:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I
• 1:25:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:25:29
  appreciate that.
• 1:25:31
  Rupert Isaacson: And just for the record, anyone who's listening to this, even
• 1:25:35
  those entities that have, you know, thrown a bit of poo at us, or scarcity.
• 1:25:44
  I, you know, like if these people get money, then I won't get ID money.
• 1:25:50
  But I think we just gotta move beyond that.
• 1:25:52
  We gotta move beyond that, you know?
• 1:25:54
  So I, I will gladly back any study coming in from people that might
• 1:26:02
  have taken a not so sympathetic view to us, because how does it matter?
• 1:26:09
  You know?
• 1:26:09
  We, we just need to advance the field.
• 1:26:12
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:12
  Right.
• 1:26:12
  Exactly.
• 1:26:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Good.
• 1:26:16
  All right.
• 1:26:17
  So Pebbles, thank you.
• 1:26:19
  Thank you.
• 1:26:19
  Thank you for coming on.
• 1:26:21
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:21
  Well, thank you.
• 1:26:22
  It's so much fun talking with you when you do it more often.
• 1:26:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to.
• 1:26:27
  Here's a suggestion.
• 1:26:28
  Why don't we do after this podcast, a little YouTube series,
• 1:26:32
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:32
  Ooh.
• 1:26:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Where we just kind of get to dream and explore.
• 1:26:36
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:36
  Ooh, that'd be exciting.
• 1:26:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:26:38
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:38
  I like it.
• 1:26:39
  Rupert Isaacson: I like dreaming and exploring.
• 1:26:41
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:41
  Yeah.
• 1:26:41
  Rupert Isaacson: It's my favorite thing, actually.
• 1:26:44
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:44
  I like it.
• 1:26:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:26:46
  All right.
• 1:26:46
  We'll do it.
• 1:26:47
  20.
• 1:26:47
  So standby lads.
• 1:26:48
  We're gonna do this with Pebbles.
• 1:26:49
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:26:49
  Yeah.
• 1:26:50
  2026 goals.
• 1:26:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:26:52
  Because Pebbles, I'm pointing at her here 'cause she's to the right of me, but I, I
• 1:26:56
  don't know if she's there on your screen.
• 1:26:59
  She might be like there or there.
• 1:27:01
  She's very cool.
• 1:27:03
  I was just at a, we were both at a an event in Mon Missoula,
• 1:27:08
  Montana the Quis Film Festival.
• 1:27:11
  And I would say that pebbles was one of the unifying.
• 1:27:18
  Influences that and this we gotta have.
• 1:27:22
  So thank you.
• 1:27:23
  I appreciate
• 1:27:23
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:27:23
  that
• 1:27:23
  Rupert Isaacson: much respect.
• 1:27:24
  Hat's coming off.
• 1:27:25
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:27:25
  Yeah.
• 1:27:26
  Thank you.
• 1:27:26
  I appreciate that.
• 1:27:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:27:28
  Yeah,
• 1:27:29
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:27:29
  because we all need to work together to make this place a better place.
• 1:27:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:27:33
  And if we don't, what are we doing?
• 1:27:34
  Like why are we even here?
• 1:27:35
  Yeah.
• 1:27:36
  Why don't we just go off and become like divorce lawyers or something.
• 1:27:38
  I mean like why put our energy into something like this
• 1:27:47
  if we just wanna fight with each other?
• 1:27:49
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:27:49
  Yeah.
• 1:27:50
  Yeah.
• 1:27:51
  All right.
• 1:27:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:27:52
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:27:52
  Well thank you.
• 1:27:53
  Rupert Isaacson: So till the next time.
• 1:27:56
  Jarrah raaf.
• 1:27:58
  Thank you so much.
• 1:27:59
  One last time.
• 1:28:00
  The website and your contact.
• 1:28:04
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:28:04
  It's Horses and Humans Research Foundation, and then my email
• 1:28:10
  is C at horses and humans.
• 1:28:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, perfect.
• 1:28:17
  So get your grant applications in lads, and let's see what you got.
• 1:28:22
  Dr. Pebbles Turbeville:
• 1:28:22
  And attend one of our webinars and check out our YouTube channel because we
• 1:28:26
  have lots of educational content there.
• 1:28:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:28:31
  Okay.
• 1:28:31
  We'll see you there.
• 1:28:32
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• 1:28:35
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• 1:28:40
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• 1:28:50
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