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Selects: How Police Interrogation Works · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: M Hey, everybody, it's Josh and for this week's s
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Speaker 1: Y s k Seles, I've chosen how police interrogation works
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Speaker 1: from back in two thousand and fourteen. It's a really
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Speaker 1: fascinating look into how the cops get people to admit
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Speaker 1: that they did the worst thing they ever did in
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Speaker 1: their entire life, and some people who didn't do anything
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Speaker 1: at all to admit that they did something. If you
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Speaker 1: thought that was confusing, just wait till you hear this episode.
0:28
Speaker 1: But it is pretty mind blowing, So buckle up. I
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Speaker 1: hope you enjoy and as much as anything, I hope
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Speaker 1: it really opens your eyes. Welcome to Stuff you should know,
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Speaker 1: A production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to
0:49
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant,
0:53
Speaker 1: uh and Noel. I guess producer nol is over there,
0:56
Speaker 1: which makes this stuff you should know. Jerry's on the beach.
1:00
Speaker 1: Good for her. Yeah, and I'm Jelly. Yeah. It'd be
1:04
Speaker 1: nice to be on the beach right now. Sure would
1:06
Speaker 1: podcasting on the beach. Yeah, there's a beach person for sure.
1:09
Speaker 1: In uh is she okay? She was flip pops like
1:14
Speaker 1: in the dead of winter. Yeah, that's true. The beach
1:17
Speaker 1: person which got nice feet up. Can I say that
1:21
Speaker 1: I acquired for saying that. I don't think so. If
1:24
Speaker 1: you said it, like alone in a room or something
1:27
Speaker 1: she didn't feel like she could leave, you'd probably get
1:29
Speaker 1: fired for that. But yeah, saying it on the podcast
1:32
Speaker 1: to everybody's probably in the clear. Okay, we'll find out.
1:35
Speaker 1: I mean, she edits these so she'll say thanks Juckers.
1:38
Speaker 1: You so Chuck. Have you ever been interrogated by the police. No,
1:46
Speaker 1: that's good. No, it's a good way to be. I
1:49
Speaker 1: was shaking down on the street once, but they didn't
1:51
Speaker 1: ask us any questions. Stopping frisk Yeah, in New York.
1:55
Speaker 1: In Athens, m just walk into the car after being out,
2:01
Speaker 1: threw us all against the wall. Fristus been left. I'm
2:05
Speaker 1: sure it was a real cop. Yeah, there were cops. Man.
2:07
Speaker 1: I was like, what's going on? Huh? I don't even know.
2:09
Speaker 1: I still don't know what happened. Well, I guess they
2:12
Speaker 1: were just stopping and frisking. A little known fact, Athens,
2:15
Speaker 1: George is the real home of stopping frisk Well, five
2:18
Speaker 1: minutes after it happened, we didn't care. You know, these
2:21
Speaker 1: are college days. Yeah. Now though you must be burning
2:24
Speaker 1: with a sense of injustice over the whole thing. Well,
2:29
Speaker 1: I ask you if you've ever been interrogated by the police,
2:32
Speaker 1: because we're about to talk about police interrogation, so it
2:35
Speaker 1: seems appropriate. And before we get started, I have some
2:39
Speaker 1: side reading that I think my interest some people. Um
2:43
Speaker 1: there is a New Yorker article called the Interview. Um,
2:48
Speaker 1: there's one called Joe Arity was the Happiest Man on
2:51
Speaker 1: Death Row. It's in Westward. Uh, there's something called Brooklyn's
2:54
Speaker 1: Baddest which was in g Q. And then lastly, looking
2:59
Speaker 1: left or right doesn't indicate your lying in Smithsonian. So
3:02
Speaker 1: all those articles are awesome, and they all have something
3:05
Speaker 1: to do with this police interrogation, which is it turns
3:08
Speaker 1: out becoming an increasingly controversial subject. Yeah, and I think
3:13
Speaker 1: this probably brings our police suite to a close or
3:16
Speaker 1: close to it, don't you think? I think so every
3:20
Speaker 1: time I know, and I didn't even know this existed,
3:22
Speaker 1: and then I saw it and it turned out to
3:23
Speaker 1: be one of the more interesting ones, I think. Yeah,
3:25
Speaker 1: and it's kind of falls into this um law enforcement category,
3:31
Speaker 1: into the subcategory of are largely debunked armchair psychological or
3:38
Speaker 1: armchair psychology techniques like polygraph Yeah, we did that, Fingerprints,
3:44
Speaker 1: we did that, truth serum we did that. Yeah. Like,
3:48
Speaker 1: there's all these episodes that we've done out there about
3:50
Speaker 1: just law enforcement techniques. We're doing them. We were like,
3:52
Speaker 1: oh wow, this is this should not be the way
3:56
Speaker 1: it is. And apparently police interrogations similar. Yeah, it's a
4:02
Speaker 1: bit of a shakedown. So let's talk about this. Like
4:05
Speaker 1: in in the United States, there is um a long
4:09
Speaker 1: and storied history of rather intense interrogation and I think
4:14
Speaker 1: you know this, this comes before the United States too.
4:17
Speaker 1: We did a medieval torture episode as well. There are
4:20
Speaker 1: plenty of interrogations going on. We did the Spanish Inquisition
4:23
Speaker 1: that was pre United States. Yeah, I would I would
4:26
Speaker 1: say that falls into the banner though, of our police
4:30
Speaker 1: and crime interrogation. Yeah right, So, um, the United States, though,
4:35
Speaker 1: has carried on the torch of basically beating suspects up
4:41
Speaker 1: to get confessions. This is where the term the third
4:44
Speaker 1: degree comes from. Actually, like when somebody's like, hey, why
4:48
Speaker 1: do you give me the third degree? They may or
4:50
Speaker 1: may not know it, but they're they're speaking about interrogation
4:54
Speaker 1: techniques that cats use to use yeah, those third degree techniques.
4:57
Speaker 1: A lot of were involved deprivation, like or you know
5:02
Speaker 1: the one where they shine the bright light in your face.
5:03
Speaker 1: That's old school. Yeah, that's an old movie trope. But
5:07
Speaker 1: you know, no access to food and water, Um, long
5:10
Speaker 1: periods of isolation. We might beat up a little bit,
5:12
Speaker 1: we might threaten you. That's the third degree, right, And
5:16
Speaker 1: then uh, starting in about the thirties, the public started
5:20
Speaker 1: to say, I don't know if this is such a
5:22
Speaker 1: good idea because I might end up in a police
5:25
Speaker 1: interrogation one day, and I don't want to get beat up.
5:28
Speaker 1: And then the I guess the straw that started to
5:31
Speaker 1: break the camel's back came in ninety seven in the
5:34
Speaker 1: case Brown versus Mississippi, where Brown said, Hey, your thug
5:39
Speaker 1: cops tied me up to a tree and with me
5:42
Speaker 1: more than once, not just with me more than once.
5:45
Speaker 1: Strung me up in a tree to whip me more
5:47
Speaker 1: than once has happened repeatedly, and I don't think that
5:50
Speaker 1: the confession they got should stand. The Supreme Court said,
5:54
Speaker 1: we agree with you. Yeah, it was He and his
5:56
Speaker 1: two buddies were accused of murdering Uh. They were tenant farmers,
5:59
Speaker 1: murdering their ball. Basically. Of course, they were black guys
6:02
Speaker 1: and the boss was a white guy, so they were
6:04
Speaker 1: pretty determined. Then well we'll see over and over. A
6:06
Speaker 1: lot of these cases of coerced false confessions are mainly
6:13
Speaker 1: because someone really wants to tab somebody as the criminal. Well, yeah,
6:18
Speaker 1: for a lot of different reasons. There can be a
6:20
Speaker 1: sense of injustice. There can be a genuine conviction that
6:25
Speaker 1: this person is guilty um, and then there can be
6:28
Speaker 1: the you know, the case clearance um percentage that a
6:33
Speaker 1: cop needs to keep up. But there's a lot of
6:35
Speaker 1: reasons why a cop might say you need to confess. Yeah.
6:40
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them too that I've seen
6:42
Speaker 1: documentaries on at least or because of the public, Like,
6:44
Speaker 1: hey man, we really need to finger somebody for this,
6:48
Speaker 1: because people are scared, and who better than this person
6:51
Speaker 1: who might not be too smart or might but might
6:54
Speaker 1: be kind of poor and can't afford and doesn't you know,
6:56
Speaker 1: representation doesn't know what's going on. So let's run them up,
7:01
Speaker 1: run them up, ring them up, sure, run them up
7:04
Speaker 1: a flagpole, right and see if it sticks to the wall. Yeah.
7:08
Speaker 1: But despite the fact that it is not easy to
7:10
Speaker 1: get someone to confess. Uh, they estimate between fort of
7:15
Speaker 1: suspects do confess and that's the one thing you don't
7:19
Speaker 1: want to do, and up still do it. Yeah, so
7:23
Speaker 1: we should say supposedly up to um eight percent of
7:28
Speaker 1: suspects in in the United States waive their right to
7:31
Speaker 1: silence and counsel. Yeah that's just wait, that's just agreeing
7:34
Speaker 1: to be interrogated, right, not necessarily confessing. Yeah. So, but
7:39
Speaker 1: you can get around the whole idea of a false
7:41
Speaker 1: confession or of being coerced into confessing or whatever, just
7:44
Speaker 1: by remaining silent, not being like part of that demand
7:48
Speaker 1: your lawyer. I mean, we're gonna give you some tips, um,
7:51
Speaker 1: not how to get away with a crime, but some
7:54
Speaker 1: tips on if you if you are rounded up and
7:57
Speaker 1: put in a room, there are some things you can do. Right.
8:01
Speaker 1: This is a public service announcement with guitars. By the
8:05
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, they confessions that were involuntary. Um, they consider
8:11
Speaker 1: it involuntary, not just if you were beaten and threatened,
8:14
Speaker 1: but if you were all the deprivation third degree techniques
8:17
Speaker 1: were no longer allowed, like even if you couldn't use
8:20
Speaker 1: the bathroom, or if you've been promised something in return
8:23
Speaker 1: for confessing, or we'll go easy on you, buddy, or
8:26
Speaker 1: if you'd even just been threatened, that counts as coercion too,
8:30
Speaker 1: And so in about the fifties, UM the United States said, Hey,
8:34
Speaker 1: this kindler, kinder, gentler interrogation technique thing is is starting
8:39
Speaker 1: to work out. Let's put a bow on the whole
8:41
Speaker 1: thing and say that for a confession to be admissible,
8:44
Speaker 1: the the confess or has to sign it yeah and
8:50
Speaker 1: say yeah, I didn't I didn't do anything under coercion.
8:54
Speaker 1: This is my own, full, free confession and here's my signature,
8:59
Speaker 1: and UM, which helped but certainly didn't stop false confessions. Right.
9:03
Speaker 1: So the thing is is, UM law enforcement replaced the
9:08
Speaker 1: physical coercion with what amounts to plainly is psychological manipulation.
9:15
Speaker 1: And it's predicated on the idea that you when you
9:22
Speaker 1: are saying you didn't do something and you're guilty, you
9:26
Speaker 1: are going to become stressed out. And then the that
9:30
Speaker 1: stress is derived from anxiety over knowing you're guilty and
9:34
Speaker 1: having to lie. Because when you're being interrogated and you're
9:38
Speaker 1: denying that you're guilty, the cops don't just say oh, okay,
9:42
Speaker 1: well thanks, for coming by. If they think you're guilty,
9:45
Speaker 1: they or they want to think you're guilty, they're going
9:47
Speaker 1: to keep pressing you. Like interrogations aren't necessarily brief things, right,
9:52
Speaker 1: So the more they press you, the more stressed you
9:56
Speaker 1: should get. And the more stressed you get under this
9:59
Speaker 1: idea of um interrogation technique, the obvious, the more obvious
10:03
Speaker 1: it is that you're guilty, which means the more they press,
10:06
Speaker 1: So this feedback loop starts, right Yeah. I mean they're
10:09
Speaker 1: basically relying on a few basic human things inherent to humans,
10:13
Speaker 1: tendencies inherent to humans. Um. One is you're gonna probably
10:18
Speaker 1: open up more to someone who is like you, uh,
10:21
Speaker 1: to their If you start talking, it's gonna be hard
10:23
Speaker 1: to stop. And three, if you're if you're telling the truth,
10:27
Speaker 1: it's gonna be harder to lie. Right, So they kind
10:30
Speaker 1: of prey on that with some age old techniques like
10:33
Speaker 1: the good cop, bad cop. Right you you uh, if
10:37
Speaker 1: you feel like you're being persecuted, but then you're also
10:39
Speaker 1: being rescued by somebody else, you're going to identify with
10:42
Speaker 1: the rescuer, trust them. That's a classic move. And here's
10:45
Speaker 1: the thing like that, a lot of this stuff, like
10:47
Speaker 1: the Good Cop part um is predicated on this complete
10:51
Speaker 1: and utter deception that that cop understands where you're coming
10:56
Speaker 1: from and sympathizes with you. That cop does not sympathize
10:59
Speaker 1: with few. That cop may understand where you come from,
11:02
Speaker 1: but he or she probably despises that, and they are
11:06
Speaker 1: not your friend. But the whole one of the whole
11:10
Speaker 1: points of um of interrogation is for the cop to
11:13
Speaker 1: pretend like they're they're right there with you, they understand
11:16
Speaker 1: where you're coming from, they feel for you. This is
11:18
Speaker 1: just you're jammed up and I want to help you
11:20
Speaker 1: get out of it. Oh yeah, you see. I mean
11:22
Speaker 1: if if all this sounds super familiar from every TV
11:25
Speaker 1: show or movie you've ever seen, is because they it's
11:28
Speaker 1: been written so much that it's almost like they don't
11:32
Speaker 1: need to do their own Like writers don't even need
11:35
Speaker 1: to do their own research into how this is differ
11:38
Speaker 1: because it's just how it is in the movies. When
11:40
Speaker 1: it is in the movies is how it is in
11:42
Speaker 1: real life. When I was reading this, I was like, oh, yeah,
11:45
Speaker 1: I've seen that before. I've seen that technique before, Like
11:48
Speaker 1: it made me Actually researching this article made me appreciate
11:52
Speaker 1: that there are some TV cop show writers out there
11:55
Speaker 1: who like really do their homework, Like The Wire, like
11:58
Speaker 1: every it was a little more nuance. It's like law
12:00
Speaker 1: and Order. Um, what is it? Uh? I don't watch
12:04
Speaker 1: those the one Vincent didn't offer you. I don't know. Oh,
12:07
Speaker 1: I can't remember what it's called criminal minds something like that.
12:10
Speaker 1: It's not it, um, like it's a little more overt, right,
12:14
Speaker 1: but it's all the all the factors are there. Yeah.
12:18
Speaker 1: Another one of the tried and true techniques is maximization.
12:22
Speaker 1: That's when they try to scare you. Um, if you've
12:24
Speaker 1: ever heard like, oh you're you're pretty Josh, they're gonna
12:28
Speaker 1: love you in prisoner. I hear that almost every day.
12:32
Speaker 1: That is a classic maximization, or just you know, they're
12:36
Speaker 1: going to throw the book at you for what you've done.
12:38
Speaker 1: You're unless you you know, start playing along, you're gonna
12:41
Speaker 1: get the max exactly. Um. They may also go the
12:45
Speaker 1: exact opposite route, which is minimization, which is to create
12:50
Speaker 1: the idea that society will will commiserate with you because
12:55
Speaker 1: anybody in your position would have done the same thing.
12:58
Speaker 1: You know, like that that little lady was ask him
13:00
Speaker 1: for her person to be taken. You know, in this
13:02
Speaker 1: day and age, in this economy, that kind of thing. Um,
13:06
Speaker 1: polygraph was used for a while, and they still use that,
13:09
Speaker 1: but most times, um, if you listen to our show
13:12
Speaker 1: on polygraphs, they're not admissible in court. So a man
13:17
Speaker 1: named John Reid, he was a polygraph analyst, said, you
13:20
Speaker 1: know what, there's a lot of things that happen during
13:23
Speaker 1: a polygraph exam that we can use without the machine,
13:28
Speaker 1: just to root out the truth or lies. Yeah. Basically,
13:32
Speaker 1: John Reid said, Hey, I've noticed through all of my
13:35
Speaker 1: experience all of these things that a person who is
13:39
Speaker 1: guilty or who confesses at least goes through. And here
13:44
Speaker 1: are some ways to like really make this more efficient,
13:48
Speaker 1: to make them react more strongly, to get them to
13:51
Speaker 1: confess faster, more forcefully. And he came up with the
13:55
Speaker 1: order called the Read Technique nine steps of the Read Technique,
14:00
Speaker 1: trademark of Johnny Reidon Associates. Yeah, really, because Johnny Reidon
14:03
Speaker 1: Associates is like this business that's still very much around. Yeah.
14:06
Speaker 1: I don't know if I need to say that, but
14:09
Speaker 1: it is their technique. Yeah, And they train the CIA,
14:13
Speaker 1: the FBI, the local law enforcement there, like the in
14:17
Speaker 1: the United States, the red technique is the gold standard
14:21
Speaker 1: for police interrogation. The problem is it is also being
14:26
Speaker 1: increasingly proven to be based on basically armchair psychology and
14:31
Speaker 1: not science. It's say, it's going through the same thing
14:34
Speaker 1: right now that like a lot of the forensic sciences
14:36
Speaker 1: are going through. There's like based on intuition that doesn't
14:40
Speaker 1: really hold up to scrutiny. And I should say the
14:46
Speaker 1: red technique has not been across the board debunked, and
14:49
Speaker 1: it makes sense in a lot of ways, but there
14:52
Speaker 1: are studies out there that have said, like this doesn't
14:56
Speaker 1: really this doesn't really hold up. Yeah, he defends it. Uh,
14:59
Speaker 1: he says, it's very sound technique, but false confession comes
15:03
Speaker 1: from improper use in bad police work. Yeah, and it's
15:07
Speaker 1: not it's not necessarily like the read people are treated
15:10
Speaker 1: like they're you know, they're out to get anybody and everybody.
15:14
Speaker 1: The Red technique is criticized because the whole foundation that
15:18
Speaker 1: it's built on is the presumption of guilt, and it
15:22
Speaker 1: has been shown to prove or produce false um confessions.
15:28
Speaker 1: That's right, all right, If you sit down in a
15:54
Speaker 1: in a room to get interrogated by the cops. One
15:57
Speaker 1: thing that they're probably going to start doing is lying
15:59
Speaker 1: to you and saying we have evidence that they may
16:03
Speaker 1: not have. We have witnesses that put you at the
16:06
Speaker 1: scene that don't exist. Basically, with a few exceptions, cops
16:12
Speaker 1: can lie and say whatever they want in there. And
16:14
Speaker 1: that is going to make someone nervous. Even though you
16:16
Speaker 1: were you know, surgical gloves when you broke into that house,
16:20
Speaker 1: if they say your fingers are all over the place,
16:23
Speaker 1: you're gonna start second guessing yourself and get nervous. Yeah.
16:26
Speaker 1: And even if like you weren't in that house ever,
16:28
Speaker 1: and you know that you weren't in that house, you're
16:30
Speaker 1: gonna start to wonder if maybe you suffer from blackouts
16:33
Speaker 1: and do horrible things like this cop is saying, Wow,
16:35
Speaker 1: you're blacked out. Um, And yeah, the courts of upheld
16:38
Speaker 1: the cops right to deceive. Uh. And I've read about
16:42
Speaker 1: a study that found that of six and thirty detectives
16:47
Speaker 1: in the U. S. And Canada that were pulled say
16:49
Speaker 1: they use false evidence ploys where they're saying you have
16:55
Speaker 1: surprised it is not a hundred yeah, you would guess,
16:57
Speaker 1: I mean maybe the other eight percent We're just like
17:00
Speaker 1: they didn't even look at what they were saying, you know,
17:02
Speaker 1: but yeah, they you can and they do say we
17:06
Speaker 1: have your fingerprints, we have a witness, we have d
17:10
Speaker 1: n A. They can completely lie about what they have
17:14
Speaker 1: and that they have it on you to get you
17:17
Speaker 1: to confess. It doesn't matter. You can't say, well that
17:22
Speaker 1: cops said he had evidence doesn't matter. And the whole
17:26
Speaker 1: legal basis for this idea for the cops to be
17:28
Speaker 1: letting the cops deceive is this uh longstanding notion that
17:34
Speaker 1: no innocent person would ever sign a confession even if
17:38
Speaker 1: they were lied to about physical evidence of their guilt
17:42
Speaker 1: being at the scene of the crime, because there they
17:45
Speaker 1: know they're not guilty. The problem is that long standing
17:48
Speaker 1: idea is coming under more and more scrutiny is being
17:52
Speaker 1: found to be not the case. Like people, it's been
17:55
Speaker 1: shown people will when lied to in situations like that,
17:59
Speaker 1: they will infest the things that they did not do.
18:01
Speaker 1: I know it seems crazy for people like you and me, um,
18:05
Speaker 1: because I know I would never do that, but you know,
18:08
Speaker 1: I'm not mentally challenged or I'm not poor, and I
18:11
Speaker 1: haven't you know, there's a lot of reasons why someone
18:15
Speaker 1: might falsely confess. Yeah, and I think though also it's
18:19
Speaker 1: not just necessarily like going how you are going into it. Like, Yes,
18:23
Speaker 1: the a lot of the like mentally ill people UM
18:27
Speaker 1: make up a decent amount of UM false confessions. Same
18:31
Speaker 1: with UM, mentally handicapped, cognitively impaired people, UM, people of
18:37
Speaker 1: low socioeconomic status. There are a lot of a lot
18:40
Speaker 1: of factors that set you up to be more likely
18:43
Speaker 1: to have a false or give a false confession. Knowing
18:45
Speaker 1: your rights. But if you took if we took you
18:48
Speaker 1: and ran you through a long enough UM interrogation with
18:52
Speaker 1: people who knew what they were doing, they who knows
18:56
Speaker 1: what you would sign, I'd be all right, we'll see
18:59
Speaker 1: because I am stand this all. I know my rights.
19:01
Speaker 1: I have a very strong mind. Probably say I want
19:04
Speaker 1: a lawyer. Well yeah, I just ended all. And then
19:07
Speaker 1: I'd be like, m, I don't know any lawyers. Do
19:11
Speaker 1: you know a lawyer? I have an entertainment attorney. Does
19:13
Speaker 1: that count? Um, they know lawyers? Yeah, exactly. This is
19:18
Speaker 1: the whole network. So UM, once they bring you in
19:21
Speaker 1: the room, the room itself uh. And this is all
19:23
Speaker 1: from Read's manual. He wrote a manual nineteen sixty two
19:27
Speaker 1: with a Northwestern law professor named fred Inboo called Criminal
19:32
Speaker 1: Interrogation and Confessions. I imagine every writer in Hollywood has
19:35
Speaker 1: a copy of that on their shelf. Um. But the
19:38
Speaker 1: room that you see on TV, that's what there they suggest,
19:42
Speaker 1: you know, nothing on the walls, a very plain desk,
19:45
Speaker 1: a very uncomfortable chair on one side, two chairs on
19:49
Speaker 1: the other for the detectives. UM, that one way mirror
19:52
Speaker 1: that's gonna serve a purpose of letting people spy on
19:55
Speaker 1: you and just to make you nervous even if there's
19:57
Speaker 1: no one on the other side, and put you out
20:00
Speaker 1: of reach from this one. I didn't really uh, I
20:03
Speaker 1: had never really noticed. But out of reachs from just
20:05
Speaker 1: light switches and maybe the the a c uh, what
20:09
Speaker 1: do you call those thermostatic thermostatic just to make you
20:12
Speaker 1: feel powerless. It's all a mind game to make you
20:15
Speaker 1: feel helpless. So far seems pretty intuitive, pretty logical, Like
20:19
Speaker 1: if you can't flip the lights on and off, it's
20:21
Speaker 1: not something I would think that I would want to
20:23
Speaker 1: do right then, but maybe knowing seeing that it was
20:26
Speaker 1: that far away, yeah, woid just give me this reinforced
20:29
Speaker 1: the idea that, Like, I couldn't even if I wanted to,
20:31
Speaker 1: because it's all the way over there. That's probably small
20:33
Speaker 1: detective in between me and that, like exactly, but it
20:36
Speaker 1: makes sense. But I point that out because that's that's
20:41
Speaker 1: the read technique. Stuff like that, keep the light switches
20:45
Speaker 1: away from the criminal because it'll make him feel helpless,
20:48
Speaker 1: right does It sounds a little hinky, but it it
20:50
Speaker 1: makes sense in a way. That is the read technique encapsulating.
20:54
Speaker 1: So let's continue, Chuck, So that was that's just the room. Yeah, yeah,
20:57
Speaker 1: that they suggest there there if you follow the re
21:00
Speaker 1: technique to a t, and this is one of the
21:04
Speaker 1: saving graces of it. Um, you're supposed to do what's
21:08
Speaker 1: an initial interview, And if you're the detective and you
21:11
Speaker 1: go into in an initial interview of an interrogation, you
21:14
Speaker 1: are the re technique tasks you with going in without
21:19
Speaker 1: a presumption of guilt. Yet that's the point of the
21:22
Speaker 1: initial interview, is you're supposed to be sizing your guy
21:25
Speaker 1: up and determining for yourself as a seasoned investigator, whether
21:30
Speaker 1: you think initially they're guilty or innocent. I'm sure that
21:33
Speaker 1: happens some Yeah, there's another study that found that it's
21:37
Speaker 1: often skipped as well. Um, and that's they just start
21:41
Speaker 1: like hammering right away. Well, yeah, you're throwing out the
21:44
Speaker 1: the the potential for this, um, this person to be
21:48
Speaker 1: treated as possibly innocent. You're not sizing up. You're going
21:51
Speaker 1: in assuming they're guilty. So but if you if you
21:54
Speaker 1: do go through that initial interview, the other point of
21:57
Speaker 1: it is that you're supposed to be creating a bay line. Yeah,
22:01
Speaker 1: which I think is that showed up in the polygraph
22:03
Speaker 1: one too, Yeah, which isn't surprising because John Reid was
22:06
Speaker 1: a polygraph expert for a while too. Yeah, and you've
22:09
Speaker 1: been gratiated yourself, you know, in the first few minutes
22:11
Speaker 1: by this point, like, uh, if if you're if you're
22:15
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and your suspect has on like a Phillies cap,
22:17
Speaker 1: you might talk about the game last night, right exactly.
22:20
Speaker 1: And that that throws back to um, the suspect being
22:23
Speaker 1: more likely. Can you trust someone that shares their same
22:26
Speaker 1: views that they feel they can identify with, So the
22:29
Speaker 1: detective will do whatever they can to make it seem like, oh,
22:33
Speaker 1: you're a Catholic, I'm a Catholic too, that kind of thing,
22:35
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And so once you've got a little
22:38
Speaker 1: bit of rapport going on, is when you're gonna set
22:40
Speaker 1: your baseline. And I thought this is pretty interesting. You don't,
22:43
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna start looking for this on cop shows
22:46
Speaker 1: to see if they don't overtly talk about it, if
22:48
Speaker 1: they're just how good they are with their you know, uh,
22:53
Speaker 1: with their acting, because if they're looking at the eyes, um,
22:57
Speaker 1: then they're going to be accurate, because that's one of
22:59
Speaker 1: the way is supposedly you can create a baseline. Um,
23:03
Speaker 1: you're gonna ask some some questions that require memory recall,
23:07
Speaker 1: and you're gonna ask other questions that require more creativity,
23:11
Speaker 1: and you're gonna look at where their eyes go. Supposedly,
23:14
Speaker 1: if your eyes moved to the right, that is just recall,
23:18
Speaker 1: because you're I guess looking in the direction of your
23:21
Speaker 1: memory center of your brain. If it's more creative, you
23:24
Speaker 1: might look to the left. And then then you're gonna
23:26
Speaker 1: use these later on to see if your suspect is
23:29
Speaker 1: creatively making up a lie, they might look to the left,
23:31
Speaker 1: or if they're just truthfully recalling something, they might look
23:34
Speaker 1: to the right. Is that bunk? Yes, all right, it's
23:37
Speaker 1: very dangerous too, because they that is incredibly widespread. It's
23:42
Speaker 1: a popular misconception. If you ask anybody if you move
23:45
Speaker 1: your eyes a certain way, does it indicate your lying?
23:47
Speaker 1: Most people are gonna say yes, Yeah, it totally does.
23:49
Speaker 1: I can't remember if it's right or left, but if
23:52
Speaker 1: you look a certain way, it means you're lying. So
23:55
Speaker 1: that's a longstanding thing that's based actually on a self
24:00
Speaker 1: help philosophy from the seventies, has nothing to do with science.
24:04
Speaker 1: And actually Richard Wiseman, who we Um incorrectly said, did
24:10
Speaker 1: some research that proved that ghosts exist in our ghost episode. Yeah,
24:15
Speaker 1: that guy, he's done someones to debunk this. He did
24:17
Speaker 1: a couple of studies and in one of the studies
24:20
Speaker 1: he found um. He he used footage of people who
24:25
Speaker 1: were holding press conferences searching for lost relatives. But the
24:29
Speaker 1: person pleaing for their relatives return was later convicted of
24:33
Speaker 1: like killing or kidnapping their their relatives, so they were
24:36
Speaker 1: obviously lying. They were committing a huge lie in front
24:39
Speaker 1: of the public. And he found that they were just
24:42
Speaker 1: as likely to look to the left or the right.
24:43
Speaker 1: There was no correlation whatsoever. Yeah, I'm sure there are
24:46
Speaker 1: facial cues of pantomimes if you're Christopher Walkin. But um,
24:52
Speaker 1: it all depends on the person to write, like, you
24:54
Speaker 1: could be really good at lying or really good at
24:56
Speaker 1: throwing people off with facial cues. Yeah, or the idea
24:59
Speaker 1: that you your eyes move in a certain direction at
25:01
Speaker 1: all because you're coming up with a lie or because
25:04
Speaker 1: you're remembering something might not It doesn't mean anything necessarily. Yeah.
25:09
Speaker 1: We also did one of micro expressions. This is a
25:11
Speaker 1: culmination of a lot of shows. I'm realized. Yeah, it
25:13
Speaker 1: really is so um that was another one. You you've
25:16
Speaker 1: got the baseline set. You're watching the eyes even though
25:20
Speaker 1: you really shouldn't be. Um, But for the most part,
25:23
Speaker 1: you're you're seeing what your suspect appears like when they're
25:28
Speaker 1: stressed or I'm sorry, when they're relaxed. And and the
25:32
Speaker 1: reason you're creating this baseline of what they act like
25:36
Speaker 1: when they relaxed is because if you ask them questions
25:40
Speaker 1: and they answer them and appear relaxed, then supposedly they're
25:44
Speaker 1: telling the truth. Again, this is predicated on some faulty
25:48
Speaker 1: ideas because here's the problem. Anxiety is not necessarily linked
25:53
Speaker 1: to lying. Like, yes, you may appear anxious if you're lying,
25:58
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that if you're anxious, you're lying, right,
26:03
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I would do that.
26:05
Speaker 1: I would do the chuck chuck technique would be the
26:08
Speaker 1: fast thing, like I would set him up. I'll calm
26:11
Speaker 1: and be like, Hey, did you watch a game last night? Yeah?
26:13
Speaker 1: How cool? Why did you kill it? Old lady? Yeah?
26:16
Speaker 1: You like the Phillies. Yeah, it was a pretty good game.
26:18
Speaker 1: How do you think they're gonna go far? Yeah? Did
26:19
Speaker 1: you kill your wife? And boom? That was pretty good?
26:22
Speaker 1: You almost said yes, yeah, really and you didn't kill
26:25
Speaker 1: your wife? No? I mean, geez, that was thrilling. The
26:29
Speaker 1: chuck technique. I I like the Colombo. What's that? Oh? Well,
26:33
Speaker 1: you're just like that's that's great. I'm glad you like
26:35
Speaker 1: the Phillies. I just want to thank you for coming by.
26:38
Speaker 1: That's it was good to meet you. Write if we
26:41
Speaker 1: if we need anything, can we call you? And they're like, yeah,
26:44
Speaker 1: they're so relieved that they get to lead, and then you, oh,
26:47
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but one more thing. Why did you kill
26:50
Speaker 1: your wife? That Colombo did? Yeah, he was a little
26:53
Speaker 1: better at it than I was. He would say, there's
26:56
Speaker 1: there's just there's one of the things just not making
26:58
Speaker 1: sense to me. If you think of your wife, why
27:01
Speaker 1: were you found standing over with the knife? Yeah, so
27:04
Speaker 1: that's how Colombo would catch him off guard, like really
27:06
Speaker 1: get them to let their guard down. Yeah. I like that.
27:09
Speaker 1: So you said, he I know what Colombo was. I
27:11
Speaker 1: was about to say he went on and killed his wife.
27:13
Speaker 1: But that was Robert Blake. Yeah, that was Barretta. What
27:17
Speaker 1: was his technique? I don't know. I never watched Barretta
27:20
Speaker 1: check your gun with the matre d and then isn't
27:23
Speaker 1: that what he did? Know? What did you do? I
27:25
Speaker 1: think he left his gun with the matre d soup,
27:28
Speaker 1: that's what he said he did, Like, you know, I'm
27:30
Speaker 1: here table for two, here's my coat and here's my gun. Yeah,
27:33
Speaker 1: well you hang onto that for me, will you be
27:35
Speaker 1: my alibi? Um? I think we're at the read technique now, right,
27:40
Speaker 1: we are. So the the other stuff was from the
27:44
Speaker 1: book that's based on the read technique criminal interrogation and confessions.
27:49
Speaker 1: But now we are at the actual read technique, the
27:53
Speaker 1: nine point technique that is designed to maximize um, just come,
28:00
Speaker 1: which leads to more frequent confessions. Yeah, and it's actually
28:04
Speaker 1: it's illegal and a lot of European countries for children, um,
28:09
Speaker 1: which which it should be, because that's another risk factor
28:12
Speaker 1: going in. They can produce false confessions as age of course,
28:16
Speaker 1: and we'll get to some of those later. Those are
28:17
Speaker 1: kind of uh maddening when you read about like a
28:21
Speaker 1: fourteen year old it's interrogated without their parents for like
28:24
Speaker 1: a full day, but it happens. So step number one
28:28
Speaker 1: and the re technique is the confrontation. Uh. And this
28:31
Speaker 1: is after the initial interview you have. You're going to
28:34
Speaker 1: present the facts of the case. You're gonna tell them
28:37
Speaker 1: about the evidence, um, what they're faced with, the all
28:41
Speaker 1: the evidence against them, even if you're making some of
28:44
Speaker 1: it up. You might want to invade their personal space
28:46
Speaker 1: at this time if you're Matthew McConaughey, uh. And then
28:50
Speaker 1: you start looking for things like fidgety, uh, suspect they
28:55
Speaker 1: look in their lips, are they like mustle with their hair? Um.
28:58
Speaker 1: And then if you're a skater, you might say, all right,
29:01
Speaker 1: I've got this guy just where I want him. That
29:03
Speaker 1: guy ran his fingers through his hair. He's guilty, exactly.
29:07
Speaker 1: And that's kind of part of the part of The
29:09
Speaker 1: issue that a lot of critics of the re technique
29:11
Speaker 1: bring up um is that basically, if you stripped non
29:15
Speaker 1: verbal stuff out, then you've got some sound stuff there. Right.
29:19
Speaker 1: The biggest problem is when you're trying to read nonverbal
29:22
Speaker 1: cues because there it's not rooted in science, rooted in
29:26
Speaker 1: armchair psychology and pop science totally. So the idea that
29:30
Speaker 1: somebody's fidgeting meanings they're guilty and they're lying. Not necessarily
29:35
Speaker 1: they could be fidgeting because any human being would be
29:39
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable when placed in that situation and interrogated by
29:43
Speaker 1: cops who are experts at it. Right. Uh So, step
29:47
Speaker 1: number two is theme development, and you're gonna be a
29:50
Speaker 1: little more soothing here with a softer voice. And this
29:53
Speaker 1: is when you come up with some some theories and
29:55
Speaker 1: a story maybe of why they committed this crime. Like
29:59
Speaker 1: you know, you just couldn't go on any longer now
30:01
Speaker 1: when your best friend at sex with your wife. You
30:05
Speaker 1: just couldn't live with that, could you. And if the
30:07
Speaker 1: suspect latches onto that in some verbal or nonverbal ways
30:11
Speaker 1: and they'll continue they don't, then they'll just create another theme. Yeah,
30:15
Speaker 1: and the the detective will basically just kind of while
30:19
Speaker 1: they're creating the story for the for the suspect to
30:23
Speaker 1: latch onto there also actively listening to the suspect to
30:27
Speaker 1: see if the suspect will latch onto it in any way,
30:29
Speaker 1: shape or form, and if they don't, they try another one.
30:33
Speaker 1: If they do, then they start to kind of beef
30:36
Speaker 1: that one up and at least alternatives, which actually comes later,
30:40
Speaker 1: but in the meantime. One of the main techniques of
30:43
Speaker 1: the read technique is stopping denials. But I didn't do it, Josh, listen,
30:50
Speaker 1: I'm telling you I was. But imagine my finger on
30:53
Speaker 1: Chuck's lips right now. That's why you would never do that.
30:58
Speaker 1: Now you stop denials, does it creates a sense of hopelessness,
31:03
Speaker 1: like the like, don't you feel hopeless with my fingers
31:06
Speaker 1: on your lips? So hopeless you have no idea? Uh?
31:10
Speaker 1: It makes you feel hopeless that you don't even have
31:12
Speaker 1: the opportunity to to reason with this cop. You can't
31:16
Speaker 1: defend yourself, not at all, so you have a sense
31:19
Speaker 1: of hopelessness. Plus, the other upside if you're an interrogator
31:23
Speaker 1: is that you're keeping the person from talking, meaning they
31:27
Speaker 1: also can't ask for counsel. Then I don't see why
31:30
Speaker 1: people don't just do that the first thing, over and
31:33
Speaker 1: over say I need a lawyer, I need a lawyer,
31:35
Speaker 1: I need a lawyer. I read this article in I
31:38
Speaker 1: think this stranger aren't the oddest Seattle. I don't know.
31:42
Speaker 1: It wasn't a great article. It was kind of um,
31:46
Speaker 1: it was just kind of misleading, like the the author
31:49
Speaker 1: really wanted you to to sympathize with the guy who
31:52
Speaker 1: was guilty and didn't really revealed that he really was
31:54
Speaker 1: pretty guilty towards the end. But it had this this
31:58
Speaker 1: really great exploit nation for why people don't ask for
32:02
Speaker 1: a lawyer in this article. Yes, and I've seen it before,
32:07
Speaker 1: but this article really got the point across that this
32:09
Speaker 1: guy was, like I mean, he'd done some stuff before,
32:13
Speaker 1: like I think like he um he was he dabbled
32:17
Speaker 1: in drugs and like ran an illegal like poker game
32:20
Speaker 1: and stuff like that like mouthfeasance. Yeah, and he so
32:26
Speaker 1: enough so that he was like he knew he was
32:29
Speaker 1: technically guilty in the eyes of the law, but not
32:31
Speaker 1: for this thing that they wanted him on. Um, so
32:35
Speaker 1: he was he had that guilt to begin with, and
32:38
Speaker 1: then these cops saying like, you're gonna really look guilty
32:40
Speaker 1: if you if you ask for a lawyer. That's one.
32:44
Speaker 1: And then the other aspect was if you lawyer up,
32:48
Speaker 1: we can't help you. One. If you talk to us,
32:52
Speaker 1: that's the only way we can help you get out
32:53
Speaker 1: of this jam. We want to help get jam like
32:57
Speaker 1: we we know we might we would have done the
32:59
Speaker 1: same thing you did. Yeah, but the cops never want
33:01
Speaker 1: to get you out of a jam. No, that's not
33:03
Speaker 1: what they're trying to do. And so what they were
33:04
Speaker 1: saying was like if you clam up this, like, who
33:07
Speaker 1: knows what's going to happen to you. They were doing
33:10
Speaker 1: all sorts of really effective psychological manipulation. And the guy
33:13
Speaker 1: they were talking to was a lawyer's son. Yeah, and
33:17
Speaker 1: this guy who like forty years old, a lawyer's son,
33:20
Speaker 1: and so he'd known his whole life to ask for
33:22
Speaker 1: a lawyer. And even this guy didn't immediately ask for
33:25
Speaker 1: a lawyer because these cops got him. You know, I
33:27
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't either. Actually, if I was if I was
33:29
Speaker 1: arrested today after work and obviously completely innocent of anything,
33:34
Speaker 1: would that be mind blowing if that happened and I
33:38
Speaker 1: was completely innocent. I would I would at first, my
33:40
Speaker 1: first instinct would probably be like, I don't need a
33:42
Speaker 1: lawyer and I didn't do anything, Yeah, like why why
33:45
Speaker 1: occurred that expense? Well, I think that's another aspect of
33:48
Speaker 1: the initial um, initial consultation. That an initial discussion where
33:53
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's all friendly, we're talking about the Phillies.
33:56
Speaker 1: Why would you need a lawyer for that? All right,
33:58
Speaker 1: I retract my statement. I get it now, but you
34:01
Speaker 1: should stick to your original statement no matter what. Like,
34:05
Speaker 1: you have a right to counsel and there's no reason
34:07
Speaker 1: you should not invoke it. Your your punishment is not
34:10
Speaker 1: going to be worse for asking for a lawyer. Yeah,
34:13
Speaker 1: you should open up. You sound like one of those
34:15
Speaker 1: legal commercials called Josh Clark. That reminds me we should
34:19
Speaker 1: do and we should mention the A C l U
34:22
Speaker 1: episode that was a pretty good in too. Yeah, man,
34:24
Speaker 1: this thing is just so many tangential podcasts. So the
34:29
Speaker 1: stopping denials, that's a big part of the read technique.
34:32
Speaker 1: And then um, there's something that's similar that John Reid noticed,
34:37
Speaker 1: but it is a little nuance. There's a difference, uh,
34:40
Speaker 1: and that's objections to to to read denials were different
34:45
Speaker 1: than objections, and objections were something to be treated differently
34:48
Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, an objection. The example they gave
34:51
Speaker 1: here was like, I would never rape somebody because my
34:54
Speaker 1: sister was raped and that it destroyed our family, So
34:58
Speaker 1: of course I wouldn't do something like that, right. So
35:00
Speaker 1: to a cop, that's not a denial. A denial is
35:03
Speaker 1: like I didn't do that. I didn't do that that,
35:06
Speaker 1: that's not me. You got the wrong guy. Those are denials,
35:08
Speaker 1: and the cops would try to stop you from completing
35:10
Speaker 1: those sentences. That objection you just said is a denial,
35:15
Speaker 1: but it's encapsulated with um, yeah, a justification something to it.
35:21
Speaker 1: Do you remember when you used to take multiple choice
35:24
Speaker 1: tests in high school? They always said that if you
35:26
Speaker 1: don't know the answer, usually the one with the most verbiage,
35:31
Speaker 1: the one with the most words is the right one.
35:33
Speaker 1: I never heard that it's true that works out. It's
35:36
Speaker 1: not good at taking tests either. Well, no, wonder, we
35:39
Speaker 1: need to get in the way back machine. You can
35:40
Speaker 1: go take some more multiple test tests. Knowing that now,
35:43
Speaker 1: But the the I think that's kind of the same
35:46
Speaker 1: premise for an objection. It's like, it's not just a denial.
35:50
Speaker 1: It's there's more to it, and the fact that somebody
35:52
Speaker 1: put that much more thought into it means that there's
35:55
Speaker 1: something to that. So a cop will take that and
35:57
Speaker 1: cultivate it and try to turn the at around and
36:01
Speaker 1: they would say, we, I know you love your sister,
36:05
Speaker 1: and you know you you stood by her while she
36:08
Speaker 1: was raped, So of course this wouldn't be like a
36:11
Speaker 1: recurring thing. This is just a one time thing that
36:13
Speaker 1: you did and you were out of your head or whatever,
36:15
Speaker 1: because you care about your sisters, so you would never
36:18
Speaker 1: do this all the time or something. And so all
36:20
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're you're kind of like you're giving
36:23
Speaker 1: the suspect like a something to latch onto, something for
36:29
Speaker 1: them to to basically re enter society to an extent,
36:34
Speaker 1: because at this moment, especially if they're guilty, they are
36:38
Speaker 1: totally on the ounce with society, and the sole representative
36:42
Speaker 1: of society, and who's speaking with them right now is
36:45
Speaker 1: the cop that's interrogating them, and everybody wants to be included. Yeah,
36:50
Speaker 1: and if you don't, then your a sociopath and they're
36:52
Speaker 1: gonna get you anyway. They're well, yeah, but they're gonna
36:55
Speaker 1: have a hard time through interrogation. So number five is
36:59
Speaker 1: getting the spects attention. Is I don't know these the
37:02
Speaker 1: real titles or is this just the liberties of the
37:05
Speaker 1: author of this article. I don't know what We'll call it.
37:08
Speaker 1: Getting the suspects attention. And uh, this is when you
37:12
Speaker 1: pretend to be the ally of the suspect um, because
37:15
Speaker 1: at this point they're probably looking for a way out.
37:18
Speaker 1: And that's when you might go, hey, man, I get it.
37:20
Speaker 1: If I call it my best friend having sex with
37:22
Speaker 1: my wife, I'd kill him too. Yeah, I understand where
37:25
Speaker 1: you're coming from. And uh, maybe a little pad on
37:29
Speaker 1: the shoulder, a little rub on, a little rub on
37:31
Speaker 1: the back, or maybe a pad on the back and
37:35
Speaker 1: just some reassurance, like I get to where you're coming from. Man,
37:38
Speaker 1: it could have could happen to any of us, and
37:41
Speaker 1: you're in big trouble at that point. Yeah, and that's
37:43
Speaker 1: probably going on like throughout. Yeah, and the themes run
37:47
Speaker 1: these all overlap quite a bit. But if if there's
37:49
Speaker 1: an objection that you've noticed that you're working, you've turned
37:52
Speaker 1: around and you're working, Yeah that objection with an extra
37:56
Speaker 1: layer of compassion and commiseration. Yeah. Uh, and I guess
38:00
Speaker 1: really kind of start to ensnare the suspect a lot more.
38:05
Speaker 1: It's weird because I'm I'm repulsed by a lot of this,
38:07
Speaker 1: but I'm also very impressed by like what I've seen
38:12
Speaker 1: on TV. What you can tell is someone who's really
38:14
Speaker 1: good at it. Oh yeah, it's an effective like an
38:16
Speaker 1: art form. There's UM I believe something like eight percent
38:20
Speaker 1: or seventies six percent of UM suspects who are interrogated
38:24
Speaker 1: in this manner when you take out people who UM
38:27
Speaker 1: invoke their miranda rights, uh confess like it has an
38:33
Speaker 1: enormous confession, right, And there's a lot of people who
38:39
Speaker 1: the vast majority the study I saw or the number
38:43
Speaker 1: I saw, six of those confessions are from guilty people,
38:49
Speaker 1: but something like point zero four percent are false confessions.
38:54
Speaker 1: The problem is there's still such thing as false confessions.
38:56
Speaker 1: There's no safeguards. It's just it just so happens that,
38:59
Speaker 1: like the false confessions are in that small of an amount. Yeah,
39:03
Speaker 1: and that percentage isn't high. But if you think about
39:06
Speaker 1: how many people are interrogated, that's like several hundred per
39:09
Speaker 1: year in the US, up to several hundred per year.
39:12
Speaker 1: That's a lot of people. Yeah, and it's not like
39:16
Speaker 1: that that those people just it gets found out at
39:19
Speaker 1: trial or somewhere down the road that they're innocent. Like,
39:23
Speaker 1: those people may spend the rest of their lives in jail.
39:25
Speaker 1: At the worst case, they may be executed, which has
39:28
Speaker 1: probably happened in the history of the US, although it
39:31
Speaker 1: hasn't been um irrefutably proven yet. Yeah, and you can
39:36
Speaker 1: listen to how the Innocence Project works. From June, we
39:41
Speaker 1: interviewed paula Is on, Oh, yeah, that's right. I wish
39:45
Speaker 1: I'd known a lot more about the Innocence Project back
39:47
Speaker 1: when we did that episode, Like I kind of got
39:51
Speaker 1: it and understood it. But just over the last few years, Um,
39:54
Speaker 1: I've kind of I understand it even more. Yeah, I
39:58
Speaker 1: wish I would have known better than It's still a
40:00
Speaker 1: good episode. We talked to Paul paul Is on Yeah,
40:03
Speaker 1: she's a real pro. Yeah, no, it's not, is it? Okay,
40:09
Speaker 1: that's how rumors get made. Well, I just liked her
40:12
Speaker 1: like more after you said that. Oh yeah, yeah, I
40:15
Speaker 1: love Steve's on. Um, all right, and back to the
40:18
Speaker 1: red technique. At this point, number six, the suspect might
40:22
Speaker 1: lose resolve and uh, This seemed really obvious to me.
40:25
Speaker 1: If the suspect is has his shoulders hunched, or has
40:30
Speaker 1: got his head in his hands, or is crying, then
40:33
Speaker 1: you've got them just where you want them as an interrogator, right,
40:37
Speaker 1: you were going to get your confession, whether it's a
40:39
Speaker 1: false confession or not. That's not guaranteed by these outward signs. Again,
40:44
Speaker 1: if you strip away the non verbal stuff from the
40:47
Speaker 1: red technique, it's it's pretty pretty good stuff. And apparently
40:50
Speaker 1: this is where you really want to regain their attention.
40:53
Speaker 1: Like if they start crying, like forced them to look
40:54
Speaker 1: you in the eye. Uh, because I guess that works.
40:57
Speaker 1: That increases the stress level. Um. So remember we talked
41:01
Speaker 1: about that theme development. It's like here, here's what happened,
41:06
Speaker 1: you know, and they object to that, and then you
41:09
Speaker 1: take that objection, you turn it around, and they start
41:11
Speaker 1: to latch onto that theme couched in that objection. You
41:16
Speaker 1: take that next, and as you're developing it, it becomes
41:20
Speaker 1: one of two or more alternatives. But basically you're taking
41:25
Speaker 1: the theme that the person latched onto and you're making
41:29
Speaker 1: that the minimal um example. It's almost like a good cop,
41:34
Speaker 1: bad cop version of reasons why you did it exactly.
41:37
Speaker 1: So it's it's um you you you shot that lady
41:42
Speaker 1: in the back because she was a horrible person. Nobody
41:47
Speaker 1: is going to think that you did it because you
41:51
Speaker 1: just wanted the entrance money, exactly, that anybody in your
41:55
Speaker 1: position would have done this. And everyone's gonna understand this
41:59
Speaker 1: is why you not. This horrible reason, this reason, this
42:03
Speaker 1: reason society can live with. Maybe you'll go to jail
42:06
Speaker 1: for a year two, who knows, But when you come out,
42:09
Speaker 1: everybody's gonna say, Hey, that Bernie guy is okay. I
42:12
Speaker 1: would have shot that old lady in the back too.
42:14
Speaker 1: Did you see that movie? Yeah, that's good. Uh, it's not. Hey,
42:18
Speaker 1: that Bernie guy needs to burn in hell for the
42:20
Speaker 1: rest of his life because it killed some poor old
42:22
Speaker 1: lady for insurance money. You know. So with the cops
42:26
Speaker 1: sitting there saying, here's what we're saying, you're agreeing to.
42:30
Speaker 1: Here's this horrible interpretation that I can't control. But this
42:35
Speaker 1: I've created and sculpted with your help. So let's throw
42:39
Speaker 1: this horrible, big thing away and this thing that doesn't
42:42
Speaker 1: seem nearly as bad is what the press will hear.
42:44
Speaker 1: They will start to put it on paper. Yeah. But
42:47
Speaker 1: here's what you're not thinking about what you're doing is
42:51
Speaker 1: it's the same in both cases. If you're confessing to
42:53
Speaker 1: a murderer and you are just at a point to
42:56
Speaker 1: where you're you think, man, that sounds way better in
42:59
Speaker 1: a NewSpace paper and this other thing. And also it's
43:02
Speaker 1: coming out of the mouth of this detective that is
43:04
Speaker 1: um that is appearing to commiserate with you, that has
43:07
Speaker 1: empathized with you, that maybe told you on the side
43:10
Speaker 1: like hey, I hated that old lady too, and I'm
43:13
Speaker 1: glad you did it. The cop can totally say that,
43:16
Speaker 1: and and to win the trust of the suspect. So
43:19
Speaker 1: all of these factors combine all of a sudden, you
43:22
Speaker 1: have a story, you have a narrative, you're working out
43:25
Speaker 1: with the cops. You may not even realize that that's
43:27
Speaker 1: what's going on. And then the cops going to say,
43:31
Speaker 1: I have a piece of paper and a pen here,
43:34
Speaker 1: and I want you to write down what we just
43:36
Speaker 1: talked about. I want you to write down your confession. Yeah, well,
43:40
Speaker 1: they're gonna bring someone else in there first. Well, there's
43:42
Speaker 1: probably already someone else in there. They may bring a
43:45
Speaker 1: third a new person in there. Uh, to try and
43:49
Speaker 1: force them to retell their story, which they probably won't
43:52
Speaker 1: want to do. Uh. And that's when you can introduce like, hey,
43:56
Speaker 1: you don't want to tell the story again to this
43:58
Speaker 1: new detective. I know you're tired here to take the
44:00
Speaker 1: spend exactly, don't stab me with it. By this time,
44:04
Speaker 1: the person will likely want to do just about anything
44:07
Speaker 1: to get out of that room and from writing and
44:11
Speaker 1: signing this this confession. There's salvation on the other end.
44:15
Speaker 1: There's a light at the end of the tunnel, even
44:17
Speaker 1: if it's possibly jail. Yeah, they can get out of
44:21
Speaker 1: this room. They can get out of this horrible interrogation. Yeah.
44:24
Speaker 1: They may promise like a hot meal, like something as
44:28
Speaker 1: simple as that can can get someone to sign a
44:31
Speaker 1: confession at the end of a long, long day. So
44:34
Speaker 1: you've got the written confession, you haven't signed, Uh. They
44:39
Speaker 1: probably have to sign an additional waiver that says I
44:41
Speaker 1: didn't write this under coercion or else. They'll include that
44:44
Speaker 1: in the confession and then you have basically what amounts
44:48
Speaker 1: to a slam dunk conviction in court. Yep. And that
44:51
Speaker 1: is the read technique. Uh. And we're gonna talk about
44:54
Speaker 1: some real cases of interrogation right after this break. Alright, Chuck.
45:19
Speaker 1: So that's the red technique. You got your purpose, super effective, um,
45:25
Speaker 1: and it has been used in plenty of cases. Like
45:29
Speaker 1: we said, the number that I saw was like point
45:31
Speaker 1: zero per point zero four of confessions or false confessions, UM,
45:37
Speaker 1: which is extraordinarily small, which means that a lot of
45:40
Speaker 1: truly bad guys get caught through the red the red technique, right. Um.
45:45
Speaker 1: And there's this one in this article on how stuff works, um,
45:48
Speaker 1: how police interrogation works. And it's with a woman named
45:53
Speaker 1: Nicole Michelle Frederick. It's between her and a detective named
45:57
Speaker 1: Victor Lauria, and it takes place in Detroit in September
46:01
Speaker 1: of two thousand three. And Um, Nicole Michelle Frederick was
46:04
Speaker 1: the step mom to a two year old daughter, and
46:08
Speaker 1: the two year old daughter had shown up in the hospital,
46:11
Speaker 1: I believe, unresponsive with bruises all over her body had
46:15
Speaker 1: clearly been physically abused. And the step mom was saying,
46:19
Speaker 1: she falls down a lot, like I don't think anybody
46:23
Speaker 1: heard her, Like she just gets bruised like that, And uh,
46:26
Speaker 1: it certainly wasn't me, but not only was it not me,
46:29
Speaker 1: I don't think it was anybody. The little girl just
46:31
Speaker 1: falls down, she does it to herself. And with that,
46:34
Speaker 1: Detective Lauria took her to be blaming the victim that
46:40
Speaker 1: she was trying to go free. By blaming this little
46:43
Speaker 1: girl for being clumsy, lumsy and difficult, yes, which a
46:48
Speaker 1: detective can then latch onto is reprehensible as that sounds, uh,
46:53
Speaker 1: by trying to get some empathy, going like, hey, I
46:55
Speaker 1: get it, you know, like this is a tough baby, yes,
46:58
Speaker 1: and it's I'm sure it's trying, and it's very difficult.
47:02
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, uh, Detective Lauria has has
47:05
Speaker 1: this I guess this theme, this justification that was set
47:09
Speaker 1: up by the suspect, and he starts to play it out.
47:15
Speaker 1: He's saying, like this this girl, she was a difficult baby.
47:19
Speaker 1: She's crying. You lose your head for a minute and
47:22
Speaker 1: you get a little rough and you know it could
47:24
Speaker 1: happen to anybody, and um uh ms. Frederick says, no,
47:30
Speaker 1: that's not right at all. Nobody hurt this kid. I
47:33
Speaker 1: don't understand why you don't believe me. You seem to
47:35
Speaker 1: be not listening to me, which is from what I understand,
47:39
Speaker 1: that's you're in the danger zone right there, and your derogation.
47:42
Speaker 1: If somebody's saying, if they're pressing back their own reality
47:45
Speaker 1: on the you the detective, you're not in control, right
47:48
Speaker 1: then they are. So uh, Laurias started to look for
47:52
Speaker 1: another theme, and it was along the same lines, but
47:54
Speaker 1: rather than losing your head for a minute, it was
47:57
Speaker 1: a split second. Something happen been in a flash of
48:00
Speaker 1: a minute or flash of a second, and she perked
48:04
Speaker 1: up a little. Yeah, she started to latch onto that one. Yeah.
48:07
Speaker 1: So then he knew he had her, you know, in
48:08
Speaker 1: a pretty tough spot, and um, she started nodding her head.
48:12
Speaker 1: He sets up the alternative and said, you know what,
48:18
Speaker 1: if you don't explain this thing, every he's gonna everyone's
48:21
Speaker 1: gonna just assume that you're this awful, abusive person. Um.
48:26
Speaker 1: I think people might understand more though, because everyone's been there.
48:30
Speaker 1: If we paint you know, if if it was just
48:33
Speaker 1: a split second thing and he lost control, people are
48:35
Speaker 1: going to get that. So those are the alternatives. All
48:38
Speaker 1: of a sudden, and then it came, uh, it came
48:40
Speaker 1: out that the her daughter had had had brain damage,
48:45
Speaker 1: it was likely not gonna die. And then all of
48:47
Speaker 1: a sudden, the suspects started saying, oh I I they're
48:51
Speaker 1: gonna get me for murder. Yeah. Well, he pointed out
48:53
Speaker 1: to her, He's like, by the way, you haven't even
48:56
Speaker 1: asked about the condition of your daughter. And she was like, no,
48:58
Speaker 1: I haven't totally have. He's like, no, you really haven't.
49:01
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, how is she. He's like, she's
49:03
Speaker 1: not gonna make it, and that's when she goes, oh no, yeah,
49:06
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be tried for murder. And she was and
49:09
Speaker 1: found guilty. Um, she she confessed, I believe right. Yeah,
49:15
Speaker 1: she admitted to shaking shaking a baby and then said
49:19
Speaker 1: out loud, I killed the little girl. I killed her right. So, Um,
49:23
Speaker 1: she was convicted of killing her two year old stepdaughter.
49:27
Speaker 1: And last I saw, I found an appeal in two
49:29
Speaker 1: thousand five that was denied. That was the last I
49:32
Speaker 1: saw of her after her conviction. So it does work,
49:36
Speaker 1: and Detective Lauria followed all of these steps, um, and
49:41
Speaker 1: got a bad guy in this case. Yeah, and so
49:45
Speaker 1: a lot of times it goes down just like it should.
49:47
Speaker 1: But it is super controversial, which we've talked about some
49:51
Speaker 1: and you mentioned at the beginning. One of the biggest
49:53
Speaker 1: problems is it's guilt presumptive. Is they go in there thinking,
49:57
Speaker 1: all right, this person's the goal of the of the
50:00
Speaker 1: interrogation is to get a confession, not to find out
50:03
Speaker 1: whether or not someone did something. In most in many cases,
50:07
Speaker 1: they go in there thinking this person is guilty. And
50:12
Speaker 1: if you're going in there thinking you're guilty, even if
50:14
Speaker 1: you don't mean to, you're gonna start to filter out
50:18
Speaker 1: any reasons why they might be innocent, even if they're
50:21
Speaker 1: good reasons and valid reasons. And that ain't no good, No,
50:24
Speaker 1: it's not. That's um. That's well, it's pretty huge flaw really,
50:30
Speaker 1: even if it does result in only point zero four
50:32
Speaker 1: percent of false confessions. Yeah, and you also mentioned that, Um,
50:36
Speaker 1: the whole purpose of the interrogation is to make someone
50:39
Speaker 1: stressed and uncomfortable. And then when you notice people behaving
50:43
Speaker 1: stressed and uncomfortable, that's the presumption an indicator of guilt. Supposedly,
50:47
Speaker 1: when it's like you said, would you call a feedback loop,
50:51
Speaker 1: So you know, I want to make you stressed and uncomfortable,
50:54
Speaker 1: you're being stressed and uncomfortable, that means you're guilty. Yeah,
50:59
Speaker 1: it's an odd way to approach things. It's coercion UM.
51:03
Speaker 1: And then there's also been a lot of people to
51:05
Speaker 1: point out that a lot of these techniques are the
51:08
Speaker 1: same thing that are used in brainwashing, which we did
51:12
Speaker 1: a show on July two thousand nine, did a brainwashing
51:15
Speaker 1: show invading a personal space, not allowing the person to speak, UM,
51:20
Speaker 1: using contrasting alternatives to have them come to uh, make
51:25
Speaker 1: them feel like they're making a decision or that they
51:28
Speaker 1: have a choice or some sort of power. I think
51:30
Speaker 1: you brainwashed me in that episode two right, Yeah, we
51:33
Speaker 1: did a little role play. Yeah, it was awesome. Man,
51:35
Speaker 1: um I turned you into a prep that was five
51:37
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, and then UM position and confession as
51:42
Speaker 1: a means of escape. Oh yeah, that was like the
51:45
Speaker 1: last step I think before resolution was to say like
51:49
Speaker 1: just like denounce your family or whatever and you will
51:52
Speaker 1: be saved or something. Right in this case, it signed
51:55
Speaker 1: this thing and man, you're gonna get that hot meal
51:58
Speaker 1: and that cigarette I promised you. The thing is is
52:01
Speaker 1: like we said, it's uh, it does produce false confessions.
52:05
Speaker 1: And I saw somewhere that of people who have been
52:10
Speaker 1: exonerated with DNA evidence, UM gave a false confession. So
52:15
Speaker 1: people go to jail for years for this kind of thing. Well,
52:18
Speaker 1: here's a few of the more famous cases. Peter Riley
52:21
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three, it's an eighteen year old who
52:25
Speaker 1: is whose mother was murdered. Um, I think no siblings
52:29
Speaker 1: and no father, so like the only parent he'd ever known.
52:32
Speaker 1: And after eight hours of interrogation by Connecticut police, he
52:36
Speaker 1: confessed to brutally murdering her. Murdering her and uh, I
52:39
Speaker 1: was convicted on manslaughter based on the confessional loan. There
52:42
Speaker 1: was no evidence, no motive. Medical findings suggested that there
52:46
Speaker 1: were at least two attackers, and uh, the town really
52:50
Speaker 1: got behind him apparently, and like, so this kid didn't
52:53
Speaker 1: do this, He's not that kind of guy. And let's
52:54
Speaker 1: have bake sales and raise money. And Arthur Miller, the
52:58
Speaker 1: famous playwright, lived in the town, and he championed it
53:01
Speaker 1: because he did a lot of work with a c
53:03
Speaker 1: l U and Um. Eventually new evidence came out that
53:07
Speaker 1: exonerated him, and he was set free after three years
53:11
Speaker 1: in prison. Three years not too bad. That's better than
53:13
Speaker 1: Earl Washington Jr. Who in nineteen eighty two he was
53:17
Speaker 1: described as in please everybody, I'm using scare quotes here
53:21
Speaker 1: He was described by psychologists as mildly retarded. He had
53:25
Speaker 1: an i Q of sixty nine, which is a whole
53:27
Speaker 1: other kettle of fish that mean anything anyway, But um,
53:31
Speaker 1: he confessed to raping and murdering a nineteen year old
53:34
Speaker 1: woman under interrogation. He was convicted on the confession alone, right, Yeah,
53:40
Speaker 1: just on the confession. Well, a lot of these are
53:42
Speaker 1: and spent eighteen years in prison, some of them on
53:45
Speaker 1: death row and was apparently rescued from the executioner with
53:50
Speaker 1: like nine days to go. Yeah. But at the same time, like,
53:53
Speaker 1: as a jury, what are you to do when someone
53:55
Speaker 1: says I did this, you know, I mean hopefully don't know,
54:00
Speaker 1: maybe maybe add some other evidence to no, I agree.
54:05
Speaker 1: The thing is is Earl Washington's um thing. He he
54:08
Speaker 1: was somebody else was caught doing it using DNA. That's
54:13
Speaker 1: that's been a huge change to this kind of thing.
54:15
Speaker 1: It's at least exonerated people like free and clear. But
54:20
Speaker 1: that's that brings up another problem with false confessions. Not
54:22
Speaker 1: only do innocent people go to jail, guilty people stay free,
54:26
Speaker 1: and they accumulate more victims over time, you know, like, um,
54:31
Speaker 1: how how how many more children would that that lady
54:34
Speaker 1: in Detroit have abused if like she'd gotten off or something,
54:38
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, like the and the guy who
54:41
Speaker 1: created UM the read technique actually had a false confession
54:46
Speaker 1: and wrongful conviction under his belt, a guy. If you
54:50
Speaker 1: read the article UM the uh the interview in The
54:54
Speaker 1: New Yorker, the first thing he talks about is this
54:56
Speaker 1: guy in the fifties who was in jail for twenty
54:59
Speaker 1: years from ordering his wife even though he didn't do it,
55:01
Speaker 1: who was um interrogated by John Reid himself. Wow. Yeah,
55:05
Speaker 1: So the guy who actually did do it went on
55:09
Speaker 1: to rape pregnant women and um commit all these other
55:13
Speaker 1: horrible crimes that he wouldn't have He wouldn't have done
55:17
Speaker 1: had he been caught the first time, or had the
55:20
Speaker 1: cups still been looking for him. Wow. So yeah, it's
55:23
Speaker 1: a huge point. I mean, like, it's not just innocent
55:26
Speaker 1: people in prison, it's guilty people out still. Yeah, if
55:31
Speaker 1: you really want to see uh this all firsthand, I
55:34
Speaker 1: highly recommend the documentary from Ken burn Sarah Burns, and
55:37
Speaker 1: David McMahon, The Central Park Five. And this is the
55:41
Speaker 1: famous story in of five young African American men who
55:45
Speaker 1: were set up the River for a rape in Central
55:49
Speaker 1: Park and they did not do it. And uh. It's
55:52
Speaker 1: a great documentary and it's just summarizes how you can
55:56
Speaker 1: get a false confession very nicely and it all plays
55:59
Speaker 1: out and you see these inner abuse and get really
56:01
Speaker 1: angry and uh, but that was definitely a case of
56:05
Speaker 1: UM sort of like with the Atlanta child murders, Like
56:08
Speaker 1: people are scared to go into Central Park now and
56:11
Speaker 1: we've got these five use who aren't so smart and
56:14
Speaker 1: they're poor, and we can we think they did it
56:19
Speaker 1: and I don't care what the evidence says. We need
56:20
Speaker 1: to finger them for the crime and put them all
56:22
Speaker 1: over the news so people will feel safe again. But
56:25
Speaker 1: they were eventually exonerated thanks to DNA again um, and
56:31
Speaker 1: they spent depending on which guy, between six years and
56:35
Speaker 1: twelve years in prison. And really great documentary and I
56:38
Speaker 1: think it's on Netflix. It is it is. Have you
56:42
Speaker 1: seen it? Yeah? Yeah, that's a good one. UM, so
56:45
Speaker 1: chuck this. We've basically been talking mostly about the red technique,
56:48
Speaker 1: that there are alternatives. There's some law enforcement agencies have
56:52
Speaker 1: lost faith in um, the red technique. Uh and in Britain,
56:57
Speaker 1: apparently in there's a bunch of false confessions that came
57:01
Speaker 1: to light and the British government said, we need to
57:05
Speaker 1: figure something else out. So they created a Blue Ribbon
57:07
Speaker 1: task force and said, come up with an alternative to
57:12
Speaker 1: the red technique, which ironically is a technique in the
57:15
Speaker 1: re technique. But what they came up with was called peace,
57:21
Speaker 1: which this is the worst acronym of all time, but
57:23
Speaker 1: preparation and planning, engage and explain, account closure, evaluate clearly
57:29
Speaker 1: spells peace. Yes, um. So they came up with it
57:35
Speaker 1: after a couple of years and by two thousand and
57:37
Speaker 1: one it was pretty widespread. But the Peace technique is
57:41
Speaker 1: predicated on the idea that you're not going after a confession.
57:45
Speaker 1: This technique, like you as a an investigator an interrogator,
57:50
Speaker 1: you're going in to just get the whole story out
57:54
Speaker 1: and as much detail as possible, and you're not going
57:57
Speaker 1: after a confession. You're not accusing the person of the crime,
58:00
Speaker 1: you're being polite and you're here's another thing, and a
58:03
Speaker 1: lot of people think that this will cure false confessions
58:07
Speaker 1: almost in and of itself, videotaping the confession from beginning
58:12
Speaker 1: to end. And so what the cops do is they
58:14
Speaker 1: interview the the suspect. They say, well, what about this,
58:18
Speaker 1: here's a discrepancy, what about this? And they're not being accusatory,
58:21
Speaker 1: they're just putting everything out there and letting this person
58:24
Speaker 1: explain it in front of the video tape or in
58:26
Speaker 1: front of the video camera, and then the tape is
58:28
Speaker 1: shown to a jury and the jury apparently decides whether
58:32
Speaker 1: the person is lying or not. Yeah, And this is
58:34
Speaker 1: all built on the what I think is a pretty
58:38
Speaker 1: rock solid theory that it is really hard to lie
58:42
Speaker 1: and lie and lie and keep it all straight and
58:46
Speaker 1: keep it all and that that congruous line that's believable
58:50
Speaker 1: at some point, if you keep talking and you're lying
58:54
Speaker 1: a bunch, you're gonna mess up. And that's what they
58:56
Speaker 1: prey on, especially if you've just spent the last day,
59:00
Speaker 1: hours like drinking cruddy coffee and eating a few ho
59:04
Speaker 1: hoes and being asked questions by interrogators, even if they're
59:07
Speaker 1: being polite like yeah, you're you're gonna have a really
59:11
Speaker 1: hard time keeping up with what you've already said. Yeah,
59:14
Speaker 1: Like you've got to be a real skilled sociopath to
59:17
Speaker 1: lie for hours and hours and hours. Uh. And then
59:20
Speaker 1: they'll bring him again and again a week later, let's say,
59:23
Speaker 1: you know, let's have some more tea and let's sit
59:24
Speaker 1: down and talk. And uh, a week later, you might
59:27
Speaker 1: forget some of the things you said. And um, and
59:30
Speaker 1: the cops have the video and they're writing down all
59:32
Speaker 1: the details. Seems pretty solid to me. Yeah, so good
59:34
Speaker 1: on you Britain. And um, there are some people here
59:36
Speaker 1: in the US trying to teach it to cops here,
59:38
Speaker 1: but apparently it's just like word of mouth and the
59:41
Speaker 1: particular jurisdiction has to be down with it and support it,
59:45
Speaker 1: and it's just not super widespread here. Yeah. Well, I mean,
59:48
Speaker 1: the read technique isn't the force of law. It's just
59:51
Speaker 1: the gold standard. It's the one that everybody uses and there, like,
59:54
Speaker 1: I want to be like the cops on the shows. Well, yeah, exactly,
59:57
Speaker 1: I want to do the piece technique. Um, the in Canada,
1:00:01
Speaker 1: I found a completely different technique too. It's called the Mr.
1:00:04
Speaker 1: Big technique. Have you heard of it. It's it's extremely involved. Basically,
1:00:10
Speaker 1: you the suspect, will meet an undercover cop who's posing
1:00:16
Speaker 1: as a criminal while you're out and about and free
1:00:18
Speaker 1: and easy or whatever, or maybe while you're being booked whatever,
1:00:21
Speaker 1: and you guys are gonna become friends and over the
1:00:23
Speaker 1: course of the next several months, this undercover cop is
1:00:27
Speaker 1: going to gain your trust and get you to ultimately confess.
1:00:31
Speaker 1: That shows how little crime there is. They're like, so,
1:00:33
Speaker 1: would you cut down your neighbor's street right exactly where
1:00:35
Speaker 1: like they can spend like three months on a single confession.
1:00:39
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, But it's called the Mr. Big technique
1:00:42
Speaker 1: and it actually the reason it's called Mr biggess Uh
1:00:45
Speaker 1: in its ideal form, you, um, the suspect are become
1:00:50
Speaker 1: like kind of criminal compatriots with this this undercover cop
1:00:54
Speaker 1: who then introduces you to Mr Big, this crime boss
1:00:57
Speaker 1: who wants you to step up to the next crime
1:00:59
Speaker 1: lab bowl. But it's gonna get you to talk about
1:01:02
Speaker 1: this murder that you did or whatever, and then you
1:01:04
Speaker 1: confess it and you're being secretly taped and you don't
1:01:06
Speaker 1: know it and you've just entrapped yourself. Man. I love Canada,
1:01:11
Speaker 1: Mr I might have to move there, man, Yeah, you're
1:01:14
Speaker 1: gonna stick around after a Toronto or Vancouver might just
1:01:18
Speaker 1: one country. So we said earlier we were gonna give
1:01:21
Speaker 1: some tips. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't. Um.
1:01:24
Speaker 1: They seem a little silly, but they recommend you just
1:01:27
Speaker 1: don't talk. You don't talk, they said, imagine the words
1:01:31
Speaker 1: I invoke my rights to remain silent painted on the
1:01:33
Speaker 1: wall and stare at them. Uh, ask for counsel, ask
1:01:38
Speaker 1: for a lawyer. And then the number five thing they
1:01:41
Speaker 1: say to do is cultivate hatred for your interrogator. Who
1:01:44
Speaker 1: who's that from Peace Help Beagle or something weird like that.
1:01:47
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's for recommendations for animal rights activists who
1:01:51
Speaker 1: get arrested. So yeah, he seems kind of basic to me.
1:01:57
Speaker 1: It is, but I think it's one of those things
1:01:59
Speaker 1: where they can easily go out the window when you're
1:02:02
Speaker 1: in that situation, you know. Yeah, and again, if you're
1:02:06
Speaker 1: in the United States and you invoke your right to council,
1:02:08
Speaker 1: that's that like the cops are they have to stop,
1:02:11
Speaker 1: and if they don't, that's a that's a big problem.
1:02:13
Speaker 1: I kind of perversely want to know how I would
1:02:15
Speaker 1: hold up. I know it's no laughing matter and I
1:02:18
Speaker 1: shouldn't joke around about it, but I would like to
1:02:20
Speaker 1: be interrogated just to see. Uh so, Uh, I guess
1:02:28
Speaker 1: that's if you want to learn some more about UM
1:02:30
Speaker 1: police interrogation, check out this article police interrogation on how
1:02:34
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. It's a good one, um, and
1:02:37
Speaker 1: you can find that by using the search bar, of course.
1:02:39
Speaker 1: And since I said that it's time for listener mail,
1:02:43
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this Jittery Joe's. Oh Yeah Coffee. Hey guys, Hope,
1:02:48
Speaker 1: Paul as well my wife Cassie now are big fancy
1:02:50
Speaker 1: yalls and uh we've been listening for years. This summer
1:02:53
Speaker 1: we took a two month honeymoon to Southeast Asia. It
1:02:56
Speaker 1: was a blast. Your podcasts kept the sane. Thanks for that.
1:02:59
Speaker 1: You sent you a postcard from uh angkor Wat in Cambodia. Uh.
1:03:04
Speaker 1: It was bought there, written in Borneo, and mailed from Malaysia.
1:03:08
Speaker 1: Remember so it was well traveled. Um. Anyway, we live
1:03:10
Speaker 1: in Athens and love to hear your stories about Athens.
1:03:12
Speaker 1: We actually live in five Points on the Shortcut Road
1:03:16
Speaker 1: where Chuck told about his mystery creepy old Lady ghost story.
1:03:19
Speaker 1: I drive by there every day and I always keep
1:03:21
Speaker 1: an eye out for her. But my day jobs with
1:03:24
Speaker 1: Jittery Joe's Coffee Roasters, a local Athens institution, and um,
1:03:29
Speaker 1: he brought a huge box of coffee and shirts and
1:03:35
Speaker 1: hats and hand delivered it to the office. And Uh,
1:03:38
Speaker 1: I think he was surprised to know that. I remember
1:03:41
Speaker 1: when Jittery Joe's first opened, because he was like, oh, well,
1:03:44
Speaker 1: that was before my time. I think he I didn't
1:03:47
Speaker 1: think I was as old as I was, But I
1:03:50
Speaker 1: remember Jittery Joe's opening up. It was a big deals,
1:03:52
Speaker 1: like the first kind of good indie coffee house in Athens.
1:03:55
Speaker 1: I didn't know they were the first, but I'm not
1:03:57
Speaker 1: surprised the first one I remember at least. But he
1:04:00
Speaker 1: suggests the Sumatra Wahana. He said, it's unlike any coffee
1:04:03
Speaker 1: I've ever had. People either love it or hate it.
1:04:07
Speaker 1: So um, that is from Mike Lord and you can
1:04:10
Speaker 1: just look up Jittery Joe's online. I'm sure you can
1:04:12
Speaker 1: order this stuff. Yeah, you definitely can. Thanks for the coffee, Mike,
1:04:15
Speaker 1: it's good. Yes, and thank you to your wife Cassidy
1:04:18
Speaker 1: for all the support. Uh. If you want to give
1:04:21
Speaker 1: Chuck and Eye free stuff, we are happy to accept it.
1:04:24
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us to ask for
1:04:26
Speaker 1: our physical mailing address and we'll give it to you. Okay, Yeah,
1:04:30
Speaker 1: I have to say showing up at the office and
1:04:31
Speaker 1: announced was a little weird, but since he had a
1:04:35
Speaker 1: huge box of coffee, it was all forgetting. Oh yeah,
1:04:38
Speaker 1: so your combaring gifts, It's like, yeah, yeah, it's social lubricant.
1:04:43
Speaker 1: Yeah gifts, sorry, especially good on It's like jittery Joe's coffee.
1:04:47
Speaker 1: You can get in touch with us via Twitter at
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1:04:51
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1:04:53
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1:04:56
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1:05:04
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