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256: A Whale of an Episode · Movie Meltdown

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Richard Keel, Jaws from the James Bond movies,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and you're listening to Movie Meltdown.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: It's showtime.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: The following feature has been rated R by the Motion
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: Picture Association of America.
• 0:41
  Speaker 4: It is intended for mature audiences and parental discretion is advised.
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: Our nuclear reactor pumping out one million kilowatts of power.
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: What's up and welcome to Movie Meltdown.
• 1:17
  Speaker 5: I'm Brian.
• 1:18
  Speaker 6: I'm Lucy.
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: And I'm Beau.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: And we are coming to you live via digital recording
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: from Nancy's Bagel Grounds. Yes, it has been a while,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: but we are back for another edition of the Caffeinated
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Movie Geek.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Cappuccino on my butt. I still drink coffee.
• 1:53
  Speaker 7: The last fucking thing you need is another cup of coffee.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: It's time for the Caffeinated Movie Geek.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: In fact, I was thinking the last time I believe
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: we were here was for The Silent World.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: So we only.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Come here for traumatizing underwater adventures. Seems to be the case, so.
• 2:11
  Speaker 8: And delicious coffee.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Which is, I won't ask you what we're drinking because
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: we're not sponsored at the moment. In this town that
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: is overrun with coffee shops and coffee brewers and grinders
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: and manufacturers, if somebody would like to start running ads
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: on these episodes, it would be in your best interest.
• 2:31
  Speaker 8: Or a pizza place.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: We're working on that.
• 2:34
  Speaker 8: Uncle Matty is.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Is there such a thing as a pizza and coffee place?
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I feel like that would be counterproductive. Like both the
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: grease and the caffeine?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, I like both. So, I mean, I don't
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: know that I normally mix the two together.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not a huge coffee drinker, so I'll ask you
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: as someone who likes both then. Would you enjoy a
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: coffee and pizza? Do you drink coffee with pizza?
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I think that because they're both seem like a good hangout,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: so I think it would be a good business, especially
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: in our town that is overrun with, hey, let's go
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: hang out at wherever. I do it myself. So I
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: think it might work okay, but whether or not you
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: want to ingest them both simultaneously, that might be a
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: different thing. But that may be up to individual taste.
• 3:19
  Speaker 8: I know that Uncle Mattio's pizza goes with everything.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Plug, plug. They really need to get a hold of
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: us if we're going to keep pouring them out like this.
• 3:30
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Well, for a minor intro geek activity here, usually... amongst
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: this crew, somebody has seen something. Do you have something
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: you're dying to tell people about Lucy?
• 3:41
  Speaker 8: Um, I, well, uh, um, no, I was going to
• 3:45
  Speaker 8: say something, but it's not timely or topical because assuming this,
• 3:49
  Speaker 8: we've already done our Christmas special.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Christmas is over. Let's put it that way.
• 3:53
  Speaker 8: But okay. I saw the first ever Christmas movie that
• 3:56
  Speaker 8: I've disliked. Like I thought that it was pretty much
• 3:59
  Speaker 8: like a home run. Like, I know that we'd been
• 4:01
  Speaker 8: discussing Madea before and how it would be impossible to
• 4:04
  Speaker 8: enjoy that film. But I almost feel like it could
• 4:06
  Speaker 8: just skate by on like the sheer holiday joy of
• 4:10
  Speaker 8: that enterprise. But I saw a Christmas movie that I
• 4:14
  Speaker 8: found both banal and tedious. And that's even more shocking
• 4:19
  Speaker 8: considering it starred Cary Grant, who is normally delightful.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: This was a recent movie.
• 4:25
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Just came out.
• 4:27
  Speaker 8: Reason if you're my granddad.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Shop around the corner.
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: No.
• 4:32
  Speaker 8: The Bishop's Wife.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Which is a classic.
• 4:35
  Speaker 8: Yeah, but not part of the canon.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I've seen it, but it's one
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: of those that's always referenced in with the classic holiday films.
• 4:43
  Speaker 8: And I was not familiar with it and was very
• 4:46
  Speaker 8: excited when I found out that the Kentucky Theater was
• 4:48
  Speaker 8: playing it because I feel like every single theater in
• 4:51
  Speaker 8: Kentucky right now is playing sort of the three same
• 4:53
  Speaker 8: holiday films. Everybody is playing... It's a Wonderful Life, which
• 4:57
  Speaker 8: they should.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: They should.
• 4:57
  Speaker 8: And everybody's playing the National Lampoon movie.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: And Black Christmas.
• 5:01
  Speaker 8: And Black Christmas, obviously.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: They should because it's a classic.
• 5:04
  Speaker 8: And Santa's sleigh. But so I went to see it
• 5:09
  Speaker 8: and it was terrible. And that's all. It was terrible. However,
• 5:14
  Speaker 8: I have been searching, and again, not timely or topical
• 5:16
  Speaker 8: in any way, shape, or form since this is coming
• 5:18
  Speaker 8: out after Christmas. But I was very excited and inspired
• 5:22
  Speaker 8: by our own Fred and who got me to watch
• 5:25
  Speaker 8: We're No Angels, which is a fantastic Christmas movie and
• 5:28
  Speaker 8: should be shown during all of the holiday season.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: You love Sean Penn. Right.
• 5:32
  Speaker 8: And that is clearly the version that I am endorsing
• 5:36
  Speaker 8: right now.
• 5:36
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 5:37
  Speaker 8: Yeah. No, the Humphrey Bogart one is really, it's fantastic
• 5:39
  Speaker 8: and really dark and sort of very dark and subversive
• 5:43
  Speaker 8: and weird, but also filled with holiday cheer.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Bogart's kind of awesome.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: All the time.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 5:49
  Speaker 8: So that's all I got.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: I just recently saw Gentleman Broncos for the first time.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And it was funny because I was, it was after
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Austin Land came out about two months ago, three months ago,
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: that I noticed that it was Jerusha Hess had written
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: and directed it. And it wasn't paired with Jared Hess.
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: And I got to think, I was like, have they
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: done anything together since Nacho Libre? Because, you know, Napoleon
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Dynamite was so fun. And when I saw Nacho Libre,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: I was like, they're trying so hard. Nacho Libre felt
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: like a parody. of themselves and it didn't work and
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: i saw gentlemen broncos listed and i was like okay
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: i'll give it a shot and i didn't really have
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: my hopes up by the way but it was actually
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: i thought very funny but um you could tell that
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: it was sort of a mockery of like the l
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: ron hubbard sort of crowd or just sci-fi geeks in
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: general but i think the thing that i found most
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: endearing was um Are either of y'all familiar with the premise?
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: What is the set up?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this kid who likes to write sci-fi, you know,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: fiction stories as a hobby. And he's sent off to
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: this writer's camp. And when he's sent off to this
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: writer's camp, this sort of L. Ron Hubbard guest speaker
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: is there going on about how to name characters, create
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: worlds for them. and gets everyone to submit stories to him.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: And it turns out that on the side, his career
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: is pretty much hit rock bottom. Like he's riding off
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: the wave of those first few books he published, but
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: everything since then has just been a wash. And then
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: just by chance, he happens to read this story that the, um,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: the main protagonist has written and submitted and the fellow
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: like falls in love with it, tweaks it a little
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: bit and then submitted to his publisher and gets published
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: and it becomes like a big hit. But, um, it's
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: just cool because every time a different character is reading
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: the story, it's the same people. Like you suddenly you're seeing,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: you know, through the mind's eye, the story that this
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: kid has written and Sam Rockwell is playing like the
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: main protagonist. And it's hilarious because based on who's reading
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: the story, the way he delivers his dialogue, the way
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: he looks at changes each time. And, um, you know,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: the one thing I sort of fell in love with
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: was there's, um, a couple of kids who latch onto
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: this main protagonist when he's at this writer's camp that
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: want to make his story into a movie. And they're
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: recording like, you know, VHS camcorder style, you know, the
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: ones that take the old actual cassette tapes. And then
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: they have this whole movie premiere and it's just so
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: damn hilarious when you start seeing like the footage of
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: this thing up on the screen. Cause, um, The kid,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: he sits there and he watches it for a little
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: bit and then he just runs out into the lobby
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: and just starts throwing up. It's the funniest series of moments.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: It's not anything that's amazing, but it's endearing. And that's
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: what I liked about it. I was pleasantly surprised.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: This came out, what, in the last year or so?
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: No.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Because I don't remember hearing much.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: It was like, it's kind of old. I want to
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: say it's like 2009. Because Libre was, I know Napoleon Dynamite,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: but that's going to be 10 years old this year.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: And then Nacho Libre, I think, was 06 or 07.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: This was right after it was 09. I'm pretty sure 09. But, yeah,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I had never really heard of it until I, like,
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: looked it up. And I thought, well, I'll give it
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: a shot. And didn't expect much after Nacho Libre. I
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: thought that maybe it was just sort of a one-hit thing.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: But it worked for me very much so.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: I had a couple. I guess I'll go with the
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: big one. And it's one I'd put off for a
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: long time. In the geek circles that I run in,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: or at least on the internet, I don't actually leave
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: the house normally, but most of the people had been
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: talking about it for a long time, and then I
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: even did a crossover on, I don't know if anybody
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: bothered to listen to it, but I was on Destination Nerd,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: and they were going off on it because they were
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: doing comic book movies, and I was like, I'm staying
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: out of it because I don't have an opinion because
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I hadn't bothered to watch it yet. So I was like,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: all right, if everybody's going to reference what's going on,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm going to have to watch Man of Steel.
• 9:52
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 9:53
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it was one of those, I guess
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I expected to be more disappointed. like I'd heard so
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: much about it that I think I expected to and
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: especially knowing how Zack Snyder operates he's kind of a
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: crazy person so I was just like I expected him
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to just be like off the rails kind of like
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: crazy with it I mean it's it's just weird like
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: it's just weirdly set up I guess the most interesting
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: thing should be that first part because at least it's
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: all on Krypton. We haven't seen that before. So it's like,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: that feels like that should be the more interesting part,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: but they're so deep in Kryptonian politics and they don't
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: bother to explain any of it till later in the movie.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: So you're sitting there for 20 minutes going, what are
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: you guys arguing about? Like, I don't know why we're
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: supposed to care about this stuff at that point. So
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: then by the time we get past that later, they
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: piece together, Oh, this is why. But like in the beginning, uh,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: it's at least a different scenario, but you don't really
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: know what you're invested in. Then we get the, the
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: weird flashback growing up here thing. And I'm like that
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: part I'm so bored with because we've seen that before.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: It's the same. And maybe they really think they have
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to reboot everything for kids every 10 years and retell
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: the same origin story. But I'm like, if you don't
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: understand Superman at this point, like it's, Possibly the most
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: well-known pop culture icon in the world. It's one of
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the most well-known stories.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: That's why I didn't bother to see Amazing Spider-Man. And
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: the general consensus I found from people, it's like, it's
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: a good movie, but it doesn't add anything or do
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: anything new.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: That was my complaint. I just saw this 10 years ago.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And the whole issue, too. It's like, every time they
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: do I think that's the thing that's gotten me burnt
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: out on superhero movies is every single one that is
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: like a new superhero movie, it's always an origin story.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I get tired of watching origin stories
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: over and over and over and over.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Especially for characters we already know. Like if you're making
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: up a new superhero or if it's some forgotten one,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you know, Iron Man needed an origin story because he
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: was not an A-list superhero. Like he'd been around, he
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: was well known. But for normal people, like I think
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: your average person on the street would have no idea,
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you know, who he was, why he was in the suit.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: how it came together. So that was one they needed
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: to do a decent origin story, but Superman, Batman, Spider-Man,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: we don't need to start over again. Like, and that
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: was my problem with this, especially because it focuses in
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the middle there on that whole Smallville thing. And I'm like,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that was a show for 10 years and they did
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a decent job of it. It went on way too long,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: but I'm like, I feel like I've already seen this too.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: So I feel like I already saw them devote a
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: lot of time to that story. Again, shoved in people's
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: faces if you're paying attention to pop culture, so do
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: we really need to rehash that again if we're not
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: going to base the story in it, which we don't.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: The whole main story takes place when he's like 30-something,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: so why do we need to spend the whole middle
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: part of the movie setting up all this weird stuff
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: that we already know? I don't know. They tie it in,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: but I just don't care. That's what it became by
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the end. I'm not invested in any of this. I
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: just don't really care. I'm watching it. I'm not really
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: even hating it. I just don't care.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: I've got a copy of Man of Steel. that i've
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: watched and i find it entertaining but i don't know
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: 100 what's going on because i bought it when i
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: was in beijing so it's all in mandarin so there
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: is no english and it's just i just find it
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: funny just listening to everyone be dubbed in a different
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: language and watching it that way.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: And the whole wrap-up is just destruction for 45 minutes
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: and i'm like.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's the whole thing is like how is it
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: that superman is our hero when there's probably like millions
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: dead because they're blowing through buildings and destroying like half
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: of Metropolis. That I didn't get.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: I don't, yeah, I don't care about any of that.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And that's the one good thing about it. Like the
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Zod performance. I mean, he, again, he delivers like he's
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: the most interesting part. His performance is kind of amazing.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: Like he's just, he's yelling all the time, but like
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: he makes it convincing. He gives him a decent backstory
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: that again, he's kind of the only character you feel
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: like you're invested in or everybody else is like, I
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: don't know, it just feels tired.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: He's no Terrence Stamp for me.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I do really like that version. Superman 2, it's a
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: pretty awesome movie. But yeah, that was kind of the
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: only highlight in this one. I just don't care. But
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: in a way, it wasn't as Zack Snyder-y as I expected, really.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It's very heavy-handed. it's funny how not subtle he is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: with those Christ images. I mean, it's kind of, kind
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: of overdone a little bit.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I've just never been a fan of any Superman movie.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: I've tried.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I like those first two, but that was mostly Christopher Reeve.
• 14:28
  Speaker 11: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So likable.
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: And just, I don't know. I feel like Donner did
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: a pretty decent job as well, but.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It was a good origin story when we probably, I mean,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: nobody had ever done it for the big screen before.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: We kind of needed a decent origin story.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: But like when they had Superman Returns come out years ago,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: it was just drug and drug.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: I didn't care about that one either. It's the same thing.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, just tell a decent story and don't waste
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: our time. It's sad that the animated movies are so
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: much better. And I'm like, why don't they hand the
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: real movies... to these guys who are writing the animated
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: stuff that they're doing. Because the DC, like, straight-to-DVD stuff,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: what I've watched of them are really well done. I'm like,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: why don't you let these guys write your stuff? Because,
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know, it's got to be so much better
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: than what's getting made every couple of years. But that's just,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: I guess we've rambled on about. Semi-current movies. None of
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the above. None of the above. Recent things we've watched.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: We'll put it that way. All right, so we will
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: take a break and come back with this week's movie,
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: More Fish Trauma. Even though it's not a fish, but
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: they call it a fish. We were out watching for whales.
• 15:45
  Speaker 9: All over All over It started to rain with a
• 15:55
  Speaker 9: hail Down the water We were out walking the dogs
• 16:08
  Speaker 9: All of us All of us The rabbits wore dresses
• 16:13
  Speaker 9: and all Talked a lot Talked a lot Talked a lot.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: Crisp, flavorful fish sandwiches, golden brown and crunchy outside, and
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: tender and juicy inside for a snack or a meal.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: On sale at the snack bar now. The ancient Romans
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: called him Orca Orcinus, Latin for bringer of death. He
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: is without challenge the most powerful animal on the globe,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: the killer whale. Orca has 48 feet, set in two
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: impressive rows. In some respects, the orca's intelligence may be
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: even superior to man's. They remain loyal to one mate
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: for life. As parents, they are exemplary, better than many
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: human beings. And like human beings, they have a profound
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: instinct for vengeance. An innocent creature is destroyed by an
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: act of human cruelty and the ultimate battle of man
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: against nature begins. Dino De Laurentiis presents Orca.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Can you commit a sin against an animal?
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: He followed you.
• 17:33
  Speaker 8: He saw you on the deck of the boat.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: They always remember the human being who had tried to
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: harm them.
• 17:41
  Speaker 12: He deliberately left you your boat because he wants to
• 17:43
  Speaker 12: fight you on the sea.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: I won't do that.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I'll fight you! You're a vengeful son of a.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: Orca, starring Richard Harris, Charlotte Rampling, Will Sampson, Kenan Wynne.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: A spectacular adventure. From the depths of the sea to
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: the top of the world.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a fair fight on equal terms.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: A fight to the death.
• 18:24
  Speaker 6: None!
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Between the two most dangerous animals on Earth.
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: What in hell are you? Man and Orca.
• 18:33
  Speaker 13: Help!
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Hey guys, it's the repeater from Tower of Technobabble, and
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: we're getting ready to do our next show, and I
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: thought it might be cool for you to look behind
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: the scenes and see how the magic happens. In fact,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Conduit is getting Towerbot ready. Right now, as we speak.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Tune in at www.toweroftechnobattle.com and see what happens.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Tweet Audio, your source for high-performance, noise-reducing earbuds.
• 19:40
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• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Hi, this is Emma Caulfield, and you're listening to Movie Meltdown.
• 20:36
  Speaker 14: It's time for Sofa Theater.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: When you look into their eyes, you know somebody is home.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: They're an animal that possesses great spiritual power not to
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: be meddled with. Orange County Sheriff Lopez.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: We need SO to respond for a dead person at SeaWorld.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: A whale has eaten one of the trainers.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Tilikum, though, is the one that went after her.
• 21:16
  Speaker 8: Don is the senior trainer here at Shamu Stadium.
• 21:20
  Speaker 10: She captured what it means to be a SeaWorld trainer.
• 21:22
  Speaker 10: It made me realize what happened to her really could
• 21:25
  Speaker 10: have happened to anyone.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I've been expecting somebody to be killed by a Tilikum.
• 21:29
  Speaker 13: We weren't told much about it other than it was
• 21:31
  Speaker 13: trainer error.
• 21:33
  Speaker 12: It didn't just happen.
• 21:34
  Speaker 11: It's not a singular event.
• 21:35
  Speaker 12: You have to go back to understand this.
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: The speedboat herded them in.
• 21:42
  Speaker 6: And they could just pick out the young ones.
• 21:45
  Speaker 12: This is the worst thing that I've ever done.
• 21:49
  Speaker 13: When Tilikum arrived at SeaWorld, he was twice as large
• 21:53
  Speaker 13: as the next animal.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: We stored these whales in what we call a module,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: which was 20 feet across and 30 feet deep, and
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the lights were all turned out.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Probably led to what I think is a psychosis.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: All whales in captivity are all psychologically traumatized. It's not
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: just telecom.
• 22:15
  Speaker 9: If you were in a bathtub for 25 years, don't
• 22:18
  Speaker 9: you think you'd get a little psychotic?
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Dawn would tell you that it was her mistake.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: They blamed her.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: It's just a bold-faced lie.
• 22:28
  Speaker 13: I was just instructed to get rid of the tape.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: The industry has a vested interest in spinning these. That
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: sells a lot of Shamu dolls. It sells a lot
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: of tickets at the gate.
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: There's no record of an orca doing any harm in
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: the wild.
• 22:42
  Speaker 5: They say.
• 22:49
  Speaker 12: He didn't have an enemy. His was a greatness to behold.
• 22:57
  Speaker 12: He was the last surviving progeny. The last one on
• 23:00
  Speaker 12: the side of the world. They measured a half mile
• 23:06
  Speaker 12: from tip to tail. Silver and black. The powerful fins.
• 23:14
  Speaker 12: They say you could split a mountain in two. That's
• 23:17
  Speaker 12: how we got the Grand Canyon. Last great American whale.
• 23:23
  Speaker 9: Last great American.
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: Whale.
• 23:26
  Speaker 12: Last great American whale. Last great American whale. That's great
• 23:34
  Speaker 12: American whale. Some say they saw him at the Great Leagues.
• 23:41
  Speaker 12: Some say they saw him off of Florida.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: All right, so we are back for this week's Sofa
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Theater feature. This week's feature is Blackfish. The year is 2013. Director,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: this one will also be a challenge, Gabriella Cowperthwaite. If
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I got that wrong, I'm sorry, Gabriella, but you do
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: have an interesting name. The plot, according to IMDb, notorious
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: killer whale Tilikum is responsible for deaths of three individuals,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: including a top whale trainer. Blackfish shows the sometimes devastating
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: consequences of keeping such intelligent and sentient creatures in captivity. So,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: spoiler alert? Again, spoilers for real life. It's always fun
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: for documentaries when you have a spoiler alert, but.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Only a little of this did I even remember. I mean,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: it was just a few years ago when the main...
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: story happened but it still seems like not a ton
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: of it made it on the news especially not the
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: way that they go into it so i guess you
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: should probably watch the movie first so other than that
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: where would you like to begin with the disturbing 911
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: calls that we start with because that's a little weird
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: to deal.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: With well what struck me is just odd to begin
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: with is just how very plain matter of fact the
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: sea world people were it's just oh we have a
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: train her dad it's just like it was just Whoever
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: was handling that, it's almost like they handed it off
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: to a PR person. They knew from the get-go that
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: there would be some sort of scandal and people would
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: be listening to the 911 call. To me, that was
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: just so weird. It's like, did they rehearse that 911
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: call a dozen times over before they made it? And
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: then once you watch the documentary, you almost kind of
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: suspect that that's a possibility.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: The second one was way too calm, and that's the
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: one where somebody was dead. The first one, they were
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: just like, they're in the tank. They're not supposed to
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: be in the tank. But that second one was creepy.
• 25:33
  Speaker 8: Yeah, you say that you don't remember those incidents, and
• 25:35
  Speaker 8: I think that that's very calculated by the SeaWorld department.
• 25:38
  Speaker 8: I mean, I only remember the gentleman that they were
• 25:42
  Speaker 8: referring to as a drifter who had wandered into the tank.
• 25:45
  Speaker 8: That's the only one that I thought really got any play.
• 25:47
  Speaker 8: I remember that one somewhat vividly. I remember that.
• 25:49
  Speaker 11: One in the story, yeah.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: The story that they told, too, to where, like, they
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: said how it was spun that he was, like, some
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: crazy man, and that was it. I mean, when they
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: talked about how that was their initial thing, that's all
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I heard on the news reports, too, and just sort
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of disappeared after that.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: If he's a drifter, quote-unquote, then, you know... Do they
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: really pay attention to anybody in that situation? I mean,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: do we really worry about any of our homeless or
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: any other people out there just wandering the streets? So
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that one doesn't surprise me. That is very easy to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: brush under the rug.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: What a cheery note that was. Thank you.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just being realistic.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Happy holidays.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: As I watch people shuffle by on this very street
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: in front of us, I see it every day. And
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: I'm just like, I think to myself, that guy who
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: has yelled at me on many occasions and one time
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: called me an awesome name. I'm like, why is he
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: not being taken care of? Like he really, like there's
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: some loophole.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say, it's like I
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: walk by that guy on the street who asked me
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: for change and I just point him and say, you
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: know what? If you get eaten by some other large mammal,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: they're going to brush you right under the rug, buddy.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Right under the rug.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: They would. So that was just a little bit of
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: honesty there. But go ahead.
• 27:02
  Speaker 8: Yeah, just when I thought my viewing experience of this
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: film couldn't be any darker, we're now going in a
• 27:07
  Speaker 8: completely different direction. We're one less homeless person?
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: How about that? There's a cheery note. All righty then. Aside.
• 27:17
  Speaker 8: Telecom solving the world's homeless population one drifter at a time.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Amen. All right.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Ebenezer Scrooge. He might as well get eaten by a
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: killer whale and decrease the surplus population.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: This all seems fine to me.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: All right. Where would we... like to go after them.
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: Has anybody seen the, they did a short trailer clip
• 27:44
  Speaker 8: in the film, but the Dino De Laurentiis Orca whale
• 27:50
  Speaker 8: exploitation film. Has anybody seen that or familiar with that?
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen it. Sadly, I own it. Just because,
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I really like cheesy 70s animal attack films.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I don't know why. There was a lot of them.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That's kind of what got me into
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: teaching science. I like seeing nature run amok and give
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: man its comeuppance in those movies.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I barely remember any of it, but watching the clip again.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I remember Charlotte Rampling in it.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I remember Richard Harris looks kind of badass.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I want to watch it. It's Richard Harris, Charlotte Rampling.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I go blank on the character actor's name. He was
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: like the... tall Native American from One Flew Over the
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Cuckoo's Nest. He's like in it as a psychic. And
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I think Kenan Wynn is in it. I mean, it's
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: like a pretty large cast, but it's just like very
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: over-the-top melodrama and pretty much everyone who slowly gets picked off.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: What happens if I, it's been a while since I've
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: watched it, even though I have it, but Richard Harris
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: kills the um, mate of this killer whale. Like he
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: kills the female, doesn't kill the male. And, um, you know,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: it's sort of following him. It's not, you almost think
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: it wants to be jaws, but it's not jaws in
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and of itself. Um, he's kind of coming to terms with,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: this is what he does for a living. And he
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: almost gets to the point to where he wants to
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: let it go. But then this whale, it starts picking
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: off everyone. Somehow it figures out who is, uh, close
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: friend to him and is picking them off. And it
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: all hinges on the fact that all these people live
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: in houseboats or things. that are like close to the
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: water so it can kill them easily. But I don't know.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: It's stupid, but it's entertaining. But as soon as I
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: saw them showing that trailer, I was like, oh God,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I forgot I even have that on my shelf in
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: the other room.
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: It's a classic.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: It's one where I almost don't want to know if there...
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I just assume if it's 70s, there probably is some
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: sort of animal cruelty going on in those films. That's
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: the only thing that bothers me about watching all those.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: When you watch Kingdom of the Spiders, the William Shatner film,
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: you watch and it's like, I can tell they're killing
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: those tarantulas. I feel really, really bad for them. I'm
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: probably the only person who feels bad for tarantulas. No,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: but I.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: Remember we watched that one and I was like, there
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: were a lot of fake ones. And then there were
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: a lot of like, they were trying to cover themselves
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: by like, well, we also had a lot of dead
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: ones that we worked in. We're like, yeah, but how
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: did you get the dead ones? Like, did you just
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: kill live ones? Cause that's not any better.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's, like, a whole scene where the tarantulas
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: are falling down and she dumps boiling water on them.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And you see, like, the car driving through the street
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: and running over, like, dozens of them. I'm just like, no.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: They didn't fake that.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: They were just running over tarantulas.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, that was the only downside to that huge, like,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: boom of those. I mean, one time I added up,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: there was, like, 14 animal attack films in 77. Like,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: that was when it peaked was 77. After that, it
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: just dropped off because I think everyone started enforcing, like,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: No animal cruelty within these. And then it didn't pick
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: up again until you had sci-fi with cheesy CG animals.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: We're abusing CG about that. Can we stop that? So
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: you want to see Orca? Is that what you're saying?
• 31:23
  Speaker 14: Yeah.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Do you want to borrow Orca?
• 31:25
  Speaker 8: I would love to borrow Orca.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 31:26
  Speaker 8: After that rousing endorsement.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Richard Harris, what more do you want?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Semi-sober.
• 31:32
  Speaker 8: Does the Orca ultimately, does Richard Harris' character have a wife?
• 31:36
  Speaker 8: And is that the.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Orca for the revenge is that where you're going the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: love interest the love interest is charlotte rampling in that
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and i'm trying to remember i.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: If she is almost akin to like the richard dry
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: fist character in jaws i want to say she is
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: she's like um and a marine biologist or something along
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: that line but again it's been i saw it i
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: found it stupid entertaining bought like a cheap two dollar
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: copy at a flea market and it's been about three
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: years since I watched it. So I'm trying to remember
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: its fragments. There's like a whole showdown between Richard Harris
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: and the Orca at the end that goes on forever.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm trying to, I think it actually ends with
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: like the two of them killing one another, but I
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: could be wrong. I'm probably getting that completely wrong.
• 32:28
  Speaker 8: So when are we ready for our next Nancy bagel
• 32:32
  Speaker 8: animal cruelty event? That's a viewing possibility.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Nancy Bagel animal cruelty event.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know if she's okay with sponsoring animal cruelty.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: You should rephrase that. Bring your pets out. We'll smack
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: them around. I don't think that's what we're endorsing. Hold
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: on a minute. Well, I mean, they do, even in Orca,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: like the fact that it's being clever enough to track
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: down its friends and kill them while being ridiculous. It
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: is funny how much they're tapping into... Just how eerily
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: smart they are. That's what I like was kind of
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: like on a different note, like more so than the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: cruelty angle that this movie focuses on. Like a good
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: portion of the time I was just like watching when
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: they like, when they go to the flashback to the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: very beginning where they capture him, our main character, as
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: a pup. Are they pups? Let's call them that. As
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: a whale pup.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Which was depressing as hell, just watching all that. Then
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you had the expert coming on, the one fellow who'd
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: been involved with it, and he's like, yeah, we had
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: some dead ones. We just cut them open, filled them
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: with rocks, and then sank them to the bottom. I'm like, Jesus.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: It's weird watching that grizzled, old, tattooed sailor dude just
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: tearing up and being like, That's the worst thing I've
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: ever done.
• 33:50
  Speaker 8: By the way, I want a documentary just about that guy.
• 33:53
  Speaker 8: Because when he's like, I've taken down two governments in
• 33:56
  Speaker 8: South America, and this is the worst thing I've ever done.
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: What?
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, where's his spinoff movie?
• 34:02
  Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I could see that coming together.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: He was the quint of the documentary.
• 34:06
  Speaker 14: He was.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: But yeah, he was like, as he made that comment too,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and I was just like, wait a minute.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Really? But the fact that he was like noticeably upset,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: like just retelling the story, like 30 some odd years later,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: like it was, it was interesting seeing his reaction. I
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: am really glad they talked to him, but it was
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: even in that scene.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: And even him mentioning like it bothered him as much
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: as it did. And he's like, he's like, well, I
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: didn't stop doing that afterwards because it was a job,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: but he's like, but it's just, you could, it's like
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: he basically lived a life of misery for a while
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: doing all that. That's so strange.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: To the point where it still bothers him this many years. Like,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: it's not going to go away.
• 34:45
  Speaker 8: But he did it again after that. I thought he
• 34:47
  Speaker 8: was saying that he just kept doing that particular job
• 34:50
  Speaker 8: with tears in his eyes, but then walked away after that.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what he meant. And I interpreted it as
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: like he'd done jobs after that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 14: I don't know. I don't know.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: He definitely continued that one.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's what he meant, and I misinterpreted that he
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: just kept doing that job after.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: But it was just really interesting watching the behaviors of them,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: where they're chasing them, And they're smart enough to know.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: He's like, they've seen them get caught before. They know
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: they want the little ones. They split up to protect
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: the little ones and took off. Like all the males
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: went off, you know, on their own area. And the
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: moms with the kids went off on another area. And they,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: like the fact that they had strategy, you know, I'm
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: just like, that's pretty amazing, really. Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:30
  Speaker 8: And when the woman was, the scientist was talking about
• 35:33
  Speaker 8: the parts of their brain that exist that humans don't
• 35:36
  Speaker 8: have that, that porpoises have that are just involve community
• 35:40
  Speaker 8: where they're part of sort of a greater whole. And
• 35:42
  Speaker 8: so they're more interested in protecting the entire family than
• 35:45
  Speaker 8: just their own, you know, individual existence. I mean, it's, it's,
• 35:50
  Speaker 8: those are the two parts in the film where this
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: was my second time seeing it, where I broke down
• 35:54
  Speaker 8: and cried. um the um and my voice is cracking
• 35:59
  Speaker 8: um the second time being when um where uh they
• 36:05
  Speaker 8: they divide up the families within sea world where one
• 36:09
  Speaker 8: of the child who they you know have this entire
• 36:11
  Speaker 8: campaign about come see baby shamu and the mom and
• 36:14
  Speaker 8: the baby swimming together and isn't this a beautiful thing
• 36:16
  Speaker 8: and then they decided that the baby was proving to
• 36:19
  Speaker 8: be disruptive during shows and was you know, taking mom's
• 36:22
  Speaker 8: attention when she was supposed to be performing solos. They're like,
• 36:24
  Speaker 8: all right, let's ship this kid out.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I figured more than anything is they could sell it
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: for a fortune at a different location. It's like, we
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: already got a whale here. We don't need this one.
• 36:32
  Speaker 8: Probably a really solid point as well.
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Speaker 8: I mean, obviously so much, all of it was just
• 36:36
  Speaker 8: driven by, greed in that corporation it seems but the
• 36:41
  Speaker 8: idea that you know they heard the mother emitting this
• 36:44
  Speaker 8: sound that they'd never identified before and realized that it
• 36:47
  Speaker 8: was actually like a long range cry where she's crying
• 36:50
  Speaker 8: for this baby that she knows is taken away from
• 36:52
  Speaker 8: her it's overwhelming and that's the thing.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: That struck me as so odd when you started hearing
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: the trainers talking about them being hired and it's like
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I assumed that they would be you know marine biologists
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: or something they're like oh no we were just hired
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: because we could swim good And that's what struck me
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: as so weird. Because like if you go to the
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Louisville Zoo and most other zoos, when you see the
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: trainers doing stuff, A, those are like people with, you know,
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: like a master's degree in biology. They work intimately with
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: those animals. And B, whenever they're doing all that stuff,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it is, you know, semi-entertaining for the people.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: But the main thing is it's a series of like.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: behaviors that they train them with to where it's like
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: it's a daily check of the paws, of the teeth,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: of the eyes, of the ears, of all the stuff.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: So that way they don't have to, it's as non-invasive
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: of a way of doing a daily vet check without
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: just dragging an animal into a cage and checking it.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: It's just a really quick, hey, how you doing today?
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Let me check this, this, this, and it gets the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: food and all that. Whereas once you find that out
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: and you start hearing all the stuff, it's like these
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: people at SeaWorld, all they're doing is just you know,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: feeding them fish for shits and giggles. There is no, like,
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: the only reason they're even training those animals to do
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: all that stuff is just for the sake of entertainment.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like there's any attempt to better learn
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: about those animals like you might have in a zoo setting.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, like, if anything, like, that's the most exploitive,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: you know, establishment for something like that that, you know,
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: I could think of at that point.
• 38:21
  Speaker 8: And if anything, it seemed like they were purposefully trying
• 38:24
  Speaker 8: to mislead the public about what the animals actually are.
• 38:27
  Speaker 10: I mean.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when they were lying about the ages of how
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: long they would live and all that stuff.
• 38:32
  Speaker 8: And the dorsal fins were... When they're confined in 100%
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: of cases, the male dorsal fin collapses and they said that, no, no, no, actually,
• 38:41
  Speaker 8: it's something that always happens. It's like, no, it's like
• 38:42
  Speaker 8: 25% in the.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Wild, but Did we figure out why it does that?
• 38:48
  Speaker 8: I'm just guessing because they're super bummed.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: I assume that was part of it. It was like
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: a weird psychological thing.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: That was the only thing I felt like was a
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: little bit missing from this document. You could have had
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: a little bit more filling in on just orca behavior
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: in and of itself. Because when they started talking about
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: how there had never been a documented case of anyone
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: being attacked by an orc in a while, I was like, really?
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: That's not what Richard Harris says.
• 39:13
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, that actually just sort of blew my mind.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: I was like, that.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, knowing and seeing their behavior in the wild,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: it kind of makes sense. I mean, it doesn't seem
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: like it's in their nature to be that way. But
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: at the same time, in their own world, they are...
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: kind of savage and violent but usually towards each other
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: in their weird little social ways.
• 39:36
  Speaker 8: Yeah I was gonna say like when they show the
• 39:37
  Speaker 8: sea lion on the iceberg like I'm pretty sure if
• 39:40
  Speaker 8: that was a person on the iceberg they would have
• 39:41
  Speaker 8: the same reaction but people just don't interact with it
• 39:44
  Speaker 8: but I do think that they're obviously capable of creating
• 39:46
  Speaker 8: relationships with humans and wouldn't be malicious in that circumstance
• 39:51
  Speaker 8: if there weren't, you know, extenuating circumstances.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You feel bad for nature because you
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: got to feel bad for the seal there. And the
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: whales have been our hero the whole movie, but all
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: of a sudden everybody's like, oh God, don't eat the seal.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, here's nature for you at work. So
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, they don't really like shy
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: away from that. I mean, they do show what violent
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: animals they can be. Like the fact that they, I mean, our,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: our main character whale is just picked on the entire movie,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: like by everyone they put him in when they put
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: him in, you know, with just the new, the new
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: whales that he's supposed to be training with. That one
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: just beats the hell out of them. When he put
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: him in with the, the females that he's supposed to
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: be breeding with, they just attack him.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: And see, I think that was the main purpose of
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: this documentary. It wasn't so much saying, well, these are
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: creatures that shouldn't necessarily be kept in captivity, though that
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: was like an aside. But the main thing I felt
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: like it was saying, what happened was this was, what
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: happened was preventable. It was preventable from the get-go and
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: there were all these incidents leading up to this point
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: and they were just completely neglected.
• 40:58
  Speaker 14: Now, why?
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Especially that, that final one. I mean, that one, there'd
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: been so many times when people were just like, he'd
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: already killed people. He almost went after this person and
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: we cut it out of this video that we made.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: It's like, there were so many other times when it
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: should have been a red flag that they could have
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: done something about to prevent at least her death.
• 41:18
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I think it's definitely as much a film about
• 41:20
  Speaker 8: corporate corruption as it is about animal rights. But I
• 41:23
  Speaker 8: like that they handled both sort of sides of that.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: What I was surprised by, because I went in expecting
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: it to be more of like a individual treatment of
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: them that it was going to be like with most
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: situations like that that especially like you see all the
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: stories about like the circus animals and stuff that like
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: the trainers themselves would be like physically abusing them or
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: finding some where it really like it almost goes out
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: of its way to show you the trainers and be
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: like these are good people like this wasn't their fault
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: the overall situation and the again the corporation is the
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: one that takes the blame.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: And that was the thing I really felt like was
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: just almost was sort of missing. I wanted to know
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: why it was that they were all now former. It's like,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: what was the straw that broke the camel's back with
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: each of them that got them to leave? And I
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: don't know if that's like some weird legal thing they
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: couldn't reveal, but I, I wanted, I mean, they all
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: talked about how they got into SeaWorld, but no one
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: mentioned why they left. And I found that kind of curious.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Well, and we, and most of them ended up doing
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: it for Quite a long time, it seemed like, because
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: they show footage of them really young, and then they
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: show them like, well, here we were five years later
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: working with the same, you know, I don't know. I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: just feel like it did go on. It was kind
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: of like the same thing with the sailor. It's like
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: they could have at least had a scene where they
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: were like, I kind of knew this was wrong, but
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I kept doing it. And maybe they just didn't want
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: to talk about that stuff. But that would have been
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: really interesting to hear.
• 42:46
  Speaker 13: I actually started the serial like five days after that
• 42:49
  Speaker 13: event occurred. And we weren't told much about it other
• 42:53
  Speaker 13: than it was trainer error. Um, and you know, especially
• 42:58
  Speaker 13: when you're new into the program, you don't really question
• 43:00
  Speaker 13: a whole lot.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, years later when you actually look at
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: the footage, you go, you know what?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: He didn't do anything wrong. That whale just landed on him.
• 43:06
  Speaker 13: You know, that whale just went to the wrong spot
• 43:08
  Speaker 13: or it could have been aggression.
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: Who knows?
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: But it was not the trainer's fault at all. You know,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: watching that video. I saw the video.
• 43:20
  Speaker 10: Of the killer whale landing on John, I mean, it
• 43:23
  Speaker 10: just absolutely took my breath away.
• 43:24
  Speaker 8: I gasped.
• 43:25
  Speaker 10: I watched it two or three times, and every time
• 43:27
  Speaker 10: I saw that, I just gasped. I could not believe
• 43:29
  Speaker 10: what I was seeing. What kept his body together is
• 43:31
  Speaker 10: that his wetsuit basically held him together, but I know
• 43:34
  Speaker 10: he's had multiple surgeries and he's got tons of hardware
• 43:37
  Speaker 10: in his body, and it's hard for me to believe
• 43:38
  Speaker 10: that I didn't actually see that video. while I was
• 43:42
  Speaker 10: actually an animal trainer, because it seems to me that
• 43:45
  Speaker 10: every person who works with killer whales should have to
• 43:47
  Speaker 10: watch that video.
• 43:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah, they did kind of mention a couple of the
• 43:50
  Speaker 8: talking heads who had been involved at SeaWorld. said that
• 43:53
  Speaker 8: they stuck around because they felt like they had to
• 43:56
  Speaker 8: be there for the animal because if they weren't, then
• 43:58
  Speaker 8: who would be? And they felt a personal responsibility. You know,
• 44:02
  Speaker 8: some of that turnover too may just have to do
• 44:04
  Speaker 8: with the fact that they were hired as performers who
• 44:05
  Speaker 8: looked good in body suits, who had big old smiles,
• 44:08
  Speaker 8: and maybe at a certain age, you know.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: All old, 40.
• 44:12
  Speaker 8: It's kind of like flight attendants in the 60s. You're like,
• 44:15
  Speaker 8: all right, or Menudo or whatever.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that goes back to that weird strangeness where
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: if you've been working with an animal for 20 years,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you know more about that animal than anything else, and
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: to be replaced just for, like, you know, looks, that's
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: even sketchier when it comes to, like, running something. And
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: I think that was a lot of the point that
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: the documentary was making. It's like, you know, this is
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: a dangerous situation, and this can be workable, but not
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: the way that they're doing it.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is one of those you would assume they're
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: bringing in professionals that know how to deal with the animals,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: and they were bringing in entertainers, Or that's at least
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: what they latched on to. Like, I guess they were
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: just bringing in anybody who could swim. And then they
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: were picking the ones that like, oh, you're really good
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: with the animals and you can work the crowd. So
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: you're in charge now. And that seems like it kind
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: of leads to a lot of the problems. But again,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: it's not really their fault. Like they just took a
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: job and like they sort of have all this responsibility
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: thrust on them that maybe they don't even realize how
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: much responsibility they have.
• 45:17
  Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely. And who wouldn't take that job where they're like, well,
• 45:20
  Speaker 8: you get to swim with this killer. Well, heck, yeah,
• 45:22
  Speaker 8: I'm going to swim with the killer whale. It was
• 45:23
  Speaker 8: shocking to me, though, one girl who, you know, was
• 45:25
  Speaker 8: not even anticipating. They're like, OK, well, today's the day
• 45:27
  Speaker 8: that you'll go ahead and step on the killer whale
• 45:29
  Speaker 8: and run like right around the tank. And she hadn't
• 45:31
  Speaker 8: had any preparation for that. She was terrified, but she
• 45:34
  Speaker 8: was like, well, OK, that seems like a fun thing
• 45:36
  Speaker 8: to do as a 22 year old. Let's make it happen.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: How about the other dude that came on to work sound?
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: And they were like, oh, well, you're really good with
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: this whale. Okay. I thought I was going to be
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: turning knobs and shit, but all right, I'll jump in
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: here with the killer whale. So yeah, they weren't, that
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: was the most sketchy of all the operations, I suppose.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: But what we can get, like the, before you get
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: to Sea World, we get to that sea land stop.
• 46:01
  Speaker 8: Oh, that was heartbreaking.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: That was almost as sketchy as the one in whatever
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: country that other one was in. But, Yeah, that one,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Like, again, that's one of those things that, like,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: maybe it was just the time period. Maybe stuff like
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: that couldn't exist now. But it does just feel like
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: somebody should have come in and been like, wait, are
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: you guys clear to have whales here?
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Well, and then it goes on after that talking about
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: how they store all the killer whales in, like, what's
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: essentially a large storage unit overnight. And I was like,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I don't see how.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: I don't see how that can be legal in this
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: day and age. I could see like 20, 30 years
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: ago maybe, but like they still do that? That confounded
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: me that even now.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Is that still how it's going? Because that was like
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: 20 or more years ago.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: But no, they mentioned that even like with Tilikum, he
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: stays like caged up in that pretty much all day
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: now ever since that last incident. It's like they haven't
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: done anything with him other than they just keep him
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: in this like darkened bin.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: It's probably a slightly better tank, but it's still not
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: much of a life for him.
• 47:04
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm wondering, does anybody know if he still performs
• 47:07
  Speaker 8: after the movie came out? I mean, that seems like
• 47:08
  Speaker 8: such a macabre.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the movie, they say
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: he does, but.
• 47:10
  Speaker 8: I don't... But now that everybody knows that he's a
• 47:13
  Speaker 8: three-time killer.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: In a way, that would... I mean, they could almost market.
• 47:16
  Speaker 8: Does that sell more tickets?
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: They could almost market that way, except SeaWorld doesn't want
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: to do that.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: But if he was in that one on the side
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: of a... If he was back at SeaLand, they'd be like,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: come see killer. And like, they would... That's... There's somebody
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: out there waiting.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: To market it.
• 47:31
  Speaker 8: The sideshow aquarium. Yeah. Yeah. Which.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Normally, I'd be okay with, but there's too many deaths
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: involved in this one.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: So then was it established that they're still going out
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: and harvesting killer whales, or all the ones that they
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: have in SeaWorld, for the better part, are from the
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: initial pool that they captured in the 70s? I mean,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: that was one thing I wasn't clear on.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, they made it sound like they got kicked
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: out of our U.S. waters.
• 47:56
  Speaker 13: Absolutely.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: And they went to Iceland.
• 47:59
  Speaker 8: Well, they seem to suggest that it's all in-house breeding
• 48:01
  Speaker 8: now because that's why Tilikum was so valuable to him
• 48:04
  Speaker 8: was for his sperm. And they were saying, you know,
• 48:06
  Speaker 8: that now he's responsible for, I can't remember what the
• 48:08
  Speaker 8: percentage was, but of the gene pool in the sea.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: We have a cool little breakdown.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: Which as soon as, yeah, I saw the whole breakdown
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: and that thing kind of sat in my mind. I
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: was like, okay, if all of this shows how responsible
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: they are with, you know, taking care of these animals
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: and the very fact you're just getting people off the street, to,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: you know, train them and all that. It's like, if
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: you don't invest that much, you know, care, you know,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: science wise and what you're doing, I almost, I'm kind
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: of sketchy as to like how they're doing this breeding program.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: Cause most zoos when they're doing their breeding programs, they're very,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: very cautious looking for latent snullets. You know, it's just,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: are they just passing off the sperm? And she's like,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: here you go.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, But that's also the money end of it.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I know, it's the money thing, but that's the whole thing.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: It sounds like it could be just potentially incestuous on
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: almost every single level. I mean, all animals can tolerate
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: some level of incest. It just depends on the species
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: and how many generations. But still, I almost wonder if
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: that's a problem that would just be down the road,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: provided they are able to even stay around.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: But maybe that's where... I mean, again, if they're going
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: to spend any extra money... maybe it all went into
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: the breeding and where this is where we make our
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: real money. It's like, now we know how, you know, we,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: we make good ticket sales, but compared to breeding them
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: out to our other places and other people that have
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: other shows, it's like, Maybe that's where they bothered to
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: put a little extra money into actually having professionals get
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: involved where they don't seem to anywhere else in the park.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Which is funny.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: We never really hear that much from professionals from the
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: park at any point in time in the documentary. It
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: makes you wonder how many there even are.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: But what I do wonder is, like, how did they...
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's tied in pretty much, I mean, to
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: the point where they're showing commercials from it. So, like,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: how much did they have to go do? Like, how
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: much okay from SeaWorld did they get to do this?
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Because you could do it and do it, like, totally,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: you know, you couldn't bring up specific things. You couldn't
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: show certain things and get away with saying whatever you want.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: But when they start working in the actual, like, commercials
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: from it, I'm like, that seems like they have to
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: get permission for a good amount of stuff.
• 50:20
  Speaker 8: I think legally that's actually a public domain. I know
• 50:23
  Speaker 8: that I've had friends that have done, like, documentaries about, like,
• 50:28
  Speaker 8: film actors. And they can't show clips from films, but
• 50:30
  Speaker 8: they can show clips from trailers from films. So I think,
• 50:34
  Speaker 8: I can't imagine that SeaWorld had any sort of involvement whatsoever.
• 50:38
  Speaker 8: I mean, to the point that they wouldn't allow anybody
• 50:40
  Speaker 8: that was currently an employee to speak on their behalf.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: That's what I wondered, how much they had to go
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: out of their way to keep from getting in legal trouble.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: Because it's pretty damning, obviously. But they do work in
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: a good amount of information about them, too. It doesn't
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: seem like they're just... half-assing that. Like, they really have
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: their backstory built on at least this part. I think
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: there are holes in some of the information, but the
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: backstory on SeaWorld is not part of it.
• 51:08
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I think just from a filmmaking standpoint, I felt
• 51:10
  Speaker 8: that those clips of the commercials were so effectively used, though, because,
• 51:14
  Speaker 8: I mean, I remembered so many of them from my childhood,
• 51:17
  Speaker 8: and to have it, you know, superimposed against these sort
• 51:19
  Speaker 8: of scenes of just profound... Yeah, it was.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious, though. I mean, now that you start...
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: You mentioned it, I start thinking, I wonder... what the
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: fallout has been just for SeaWorld just since this movie.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Just business wise.
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:35
  Speaker 8: I know that I've, and I don't know if you've
• 51:36
  Speaker 8: heard this, but there's been a lot of, I guess
• 51:38
  Speaker 8: they have concerts at some of the SeaWorlds and a
• 51:40
  Speaker 8: lot of performers who have performed there won't allow them.
• 51:42
  Speaker 8: And a lot of performers whose music have been used
• 51:45
  Speaker 8: there were not allow their music to be part of
• 51:47
  Speaker 8: shows anymore. So I think there's been a lot of
• 51:49
  Speaker 8: fallout from that. I don't know in terms of ticket
• 51:51
  Speaker 8: sales and, But the celebrity backlash has been considerable. And
• 51:55
  Speaker 8: that's what's really important. Yeah, damn it.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: What does Pink think about this?
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: That's actually, it would be even more depressing to find
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: out that ticket sales hadn't decreased. Like this whole scandal
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: and all that was known by the general public, but
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: the general public still doesn't care at all. It's like, well, yeah,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: that girl died and they mistreat the animals, but still
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: my kids want to go see Killer Whale, so I'm
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: going to go take them to SeaWorld because we're down
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: there anyway.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: There's an extent that might actually be true.
• 52:23
  Speaker 8: My mom actually called me after it aired on CNN
• 52:26
  Speaker 8: practically in tears and apologized for ever having taken me
• 52:29
  Speaker 8: there as a child. There's also another parental reaction.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: That's the other thing. I started thinking because I think
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I only went there once when I was really little,
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: but I do remember it being a wonderful experience. Again,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: you're kind of blind to it because I was like
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: four or something at the time, but I do remember like...
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: think we saw like the actual Shamu while he was
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: still around and like it.
• 52:51
  Speaker 8: Was like seeing the actual Lassie isn't there yeah that's
• 52:54
  Speaker 8: what I'm.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Saying but they well they kept renaming him as they
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: got this is like it became like the Shamu show
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: so as they went on it seemed like they finally
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: got away from that I'm assuming the first.
• 53:04
  Speaker 8: Because I saw the original flipper there too yeah.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming they did a lot of that we've been
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: through six Shamus but it was so long ago I
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: know they were still using him by name at that
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: point where now i don't think they do that they've
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: pretended like he's not 100 years old because they don't
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: live to be that old according to them no never
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: ever but no i don't know i do remember like
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: going there and seeing um i don't know i think
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: we also saw a dolphin show and they were like
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: i think i came back and named my goldfish after
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: the dolphins we saw like it really was like it
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: was like you can see why it kind of works
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: and why it kind of works from the other side
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: where you're just a kid and they're splashing people up
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: front and it's hilarious and Again, you can see how
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: most of America would be suckered in by this, and
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: assuming that they're following rules and doing things the way
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: they should be done, because you don't think about that
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff when you're on the other side of it.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: I feel like I missed out. We never went to
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: SeaWorld at all.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: Way to go. You should have gone to the one
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: in Ohio.
• 54:02
  Speaker 8: There's no blood on your hands, Beau. You're the only
• 54:03
  Speaker 8: one innocent here.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: We went to zoos, but I guess it depends on
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: the zoo.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny that there was one
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: in Ohio. SeaWorld was in Ohio.
• 54:16
  Speaker 5: Where?
• 54:17
  Speaker 8: I'm going to go with Miami. I think maybe Jack
• 54:21
  Speaker 8: Hanna had some stake in that, though, because I don't
• 54:23
  Speaker 8: know if you saw him afterward. When it originally aired
• 54:26
  Speaker 8: on CNN, they had Anderson Cooper or somebody do sort
• 54:29
  Speaker 8: of a roundtable thing. And Jack Hanna was very much pro-SeaWorld,
• 54:33
  Speaker 8: which was sort of upsetting, but I've never been a
• 54:36
  Speaker 8: fan anyway.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Well, he's kind of in his own little world.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: And I can't remember why, but... The Columbus Zoo lost
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: their AZA accreditation two, three years ago. And it was
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: because of something, one of the Jack Hanna programs that
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: they were doing there. So I was going to say,
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: he's another one where I grew up watching his show,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: but with most zookeepers, he's a joke and he's part
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: of the problem, is the way he's kind of regarded.
• 55:08
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Like he's got the ridiculousness of Steve Irwin, but Steve
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Irwin knew his shit. Like Steve Irwin was amazing when
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: it came to like what he had done and the
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: knowledge that he accumulated before he became a silly TV
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: guy where Jack Hanna seems like he should have gone
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: through all that, but I swear, I don't think he
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: knows anything. Like he's just a personality at this point.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Like every time I see him, even on talk shows,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: like they'll ask him a question and he'll look at
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: the assistant who's handling stuff and they'll tell him the answer.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't, know if he really deals with
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: any of this stuff. So he, I don't know, he
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: seems like he's just become a showman at this point
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: and he's not really schooled in any of it. Or
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: if he is, he's forgotten it all by now.
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: It almost brought my footage that I shot when I
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: was in China at the Beijing zoo, but I was like, no,
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: they would scar.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: What did they do?
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: It's the only time in my life to where I
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: almost like broke down at a zoo. And I'm like,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I'm just, it bothered me so much because, you know,
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: I went there, I was like, oh, a panda. I
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: want to go see a panda. And I went and
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: I saw, and like the panda, it like had this huge,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: wonderful exhibit. And I was like, oh, this is nice.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: And so then I explore around, but then it became
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: really obvious that like all the money was funneled into
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: the panda. And then after that, it's like I'd stepped
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: onto the set of like the Omega Man in the
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: sense that like I was walking through an abandoned zoo.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: The animals were still in cages, but You know, they're
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: like degrading and all this stuff. I was like, this
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: is so fucking weird. And by the time I got
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: back to where they had the bears, it's like, I
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: was looking around and they're like, no food, no water.
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: It was like just a concrete pit that it was in.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And everyone who was there was just dropping food down
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: to the bears.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: Is that what he eats? He lives on gummy bears
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: or whatever kids throw at him?
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: As far as I could figure, yeah.
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: That's actually, and that suddenly I started looking around and
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: realized that that was pretty much, if you weren't the panda,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: then it was just there. And most of these animals
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: were dependent on whatever food people would just throw at them.
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: And so if it was an animal that was more
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: receptive to that, and it was one that was more
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: popular with people, then they were like, like the bears
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: as they were sitting there, they were breathing very labor
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: breathing because all they ate was junk food every day.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: But then, like, when I went back, like, they had bison,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: and the bison, you could see their ribs and, like,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the inside, like, their stomach sucked in. Oh, it bothered me. Like,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: I had to walk off and, like, get myself, you know,
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: even now it's, like, bothering me thinking about it. It
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: took me, like, ten minutes to, like, get myself under control. Like, okay, okay,
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: you can't just, like, break down here. Because the thing
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: that bothers me in those situations, like, the animals don't understand.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: They really don't. And that's the thing that I thought
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: was almost interesting about this is they were talking about
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: with the intelligence of the killer whales, it's like this
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: might be one of those exceptions to where the killer
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: whales are able to understand the cruelty that's being afflicted
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: to them. And they're also intelligent enough to almost be like,
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: why are you doing this to me? We have a
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: good relationship. Why are you doing this to me? Like
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: so many other organisms, they wouldn't have that. But I
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: feel like that's the one thing they did explore a
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: lot within this is to say, This is an animal
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: that's smart enough and has relationships enough with both humans
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: and other things to where if you alienate that relationship,
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: it's going to remember it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: It does seem like that's part of... Because he goes
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: for those long periods and he's like... really great to
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: be around and like even in the beginning they were
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: talking about he was the one we wanted to work
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: with he was the best to work with he was
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: the most responsive he did you know he did everything
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: he was supposed to do and at the same time
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: seemed like he was having fun with you and then
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: it gets to that point later on in his life
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: when he's had so much abuse and he's just kind
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: of like he's had enough and like he gets to
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: that point and it feels like they take him to
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: like a breaking point and he snaps and then he's
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: back to like whatever and he's back to his like
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: drudgery of doing his job again.
• 59:05
  Speaker 8: You wonder how much to, to a certain extent, they're
• 59:07
  Speaker 8: even aware of their own power and what, you know,
• 59:10
  Speaker 8: he could like, I really liked sort of the, the
• 59:12
  Speaker 8: final sequence when they were explaining the death and of the,
• 59:16
  Speaker 8: the very experienced trainer who had all of the training
• 59:19
  Speaker 8: to not allow a situation like that to happen. And,
• 59:22
  Speaker 8: A lot of people were sort of surmising that he'd
• 59:23
  Speaker 8: been getting really frustrated with the process because he'd missed
• 59:26
  Speaker 8: a cue and he hadn't got rewarded for a performance
• 59:30
  Speaker 8: that he had done correctly. And he was basically like, well,
• 59:32
  Speaker 8: this is fucked up. This is unfair. I'm doing what
• 59:34
  Speaker 8: I'm supposed to do. And she was low on fish
• 59:35
  Speaker 8: and he knew he wasn't getting rewarded. And so he
• 59:37
  Speaker 8: was just like, well, fuck this. And he just kind
• 59:39
  Speaker 8: of flew off the handle. I mean, There was that
• 59:40
  Speaker 8: whole sequence with the trainer who fortunately knew how to
• 59:45
  Speaker 8: deep sea dive or whatever it was, and he knew breathing.
• 59:48
  Speaker 8: And the orca would drag him down to the bottom
• 59:50
  Speaker 8: and then bring him back up and then drag him
• 59:51
  Speaker 8: down to the bottom and bring him back up. And
• 59:53
  Speaker 8: I was watching it with my boyfriend. He was like, well,
• 59:55
  Speaker 8: what is he doing? Is he threatening him? And I
• 59:57
  Speaker 8: was just like, he may not even know what he's doing.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 8: He may be playing.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't... I think he does because it's
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: not like he's a fish. Like, he has to come
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: up and breathe too.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: So I think... Again, they're kind of too smart for
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: their own good because I think he knew exactly what
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: he's doing because he would bring him back just in time. Like,
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: he was just down there almost long enough to drown,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: and he'd bring him back up, and then he'd take
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: him down again.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 8: I think he was really pissed.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: They're going to be able to hold their breath longer
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: than the humans.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: Would be able to.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: They are, but I think he knows it. That was
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: almost the thing. When I was watching that footage, I thought,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: is it doing this as a test to his trainer
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: just to see, like, how the trainer, like it was
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: almost like one of those, you know, kind of like
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: when you do the corporate retreats thing, it's like, we'll
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: fall back into my hand sort of thing. I know
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: it sounds absurd, but it, I almost wonder if it
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: is like it trying to figure out what level of
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: trust it has with the human being. Like it doesn't
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: ever hold him on or underwater enough to kill him.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: But when it brings him back up to the surface,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: it's like, is this human going to turn on me now?
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: Or is it going to remain calm and my friend?
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, that could be my interpretation.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 8: Or maybe he was trying to train the trainer.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: Possibly. It is interesting that, again, he will let go
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: of them and grab the other foot. It's not like
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: he's just holding on and doing whatever he wants. He's
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: letting you know, I could let you go. Hey, I
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: just did. Oh, no, wait, you're not done. And it
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: seems very calculated.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it could bite off the foot in an instant.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, definitely there's some play to it.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Well, again, but the fact that they're not just taking
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: off the leg means they kind of know their power.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: They know they're big, massive creatures compared to us. So,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know. There's a little bit of, I don't know,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: it's just premeditated stuff going on with some of his
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: actions along the way.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 8: Or is he like, hey, you haven't been to the
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 8: bottom of the tank. Maybe you'd love it down here.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 8: Check it out. I don't know if it's malicious or not.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's even malicious, but it is
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: almost pre-calculated.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: But I think that was still another whole point that
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: they made is just, you know, should we be trying
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: to work with these animals so intimately when they will
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: do these things? It's like, you don't know their motivation.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Is it malicious? Is it playful? Is it, you know,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: some mix of the both? You don't know. And it's
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: just something that's characteristic of those organisms.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: You talking about the zoo that you went to made
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: me think, I wonder if this is one of the
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: few animals that may know the difference too, because most
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: animals in a zoo, like they're brought there when they're
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: young and they don't really know the difference, but like,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Are they smart enough to realize I'm
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: not really supposed to be here? Like, is there a
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: point where they don't know? I don't know.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: That could be anthropomorphizing animals way too much, but I
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: feel like there are a lot of other species that
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: just wouldn't know the difference. I don't know.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: This is one, and it's totally not a total left turn,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: but this is something I heard recently, and I wonder
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: if it's actually changing or these sort of behaviors have
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: always been there. But this was actually on our friend's podcast.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: I was just listening to Tower of Technobabble, and he
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: was reading, Ben started reading this story, and he said
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: they are now documenting cases in, I think it was
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: both crocodiles and alligators, that they're using tools to catch
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: their prey.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: They are setting up like a, there's a specific twig
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: in these areas that the birds use to make their nests.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: They specifically put it on their nose and sit there
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: in the water still waiting for them to come get it.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: And they will, and they're like, that's, again, that's well
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: thought out. And it's not like it's just random, like
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: it fell there. They are putting it there. It's also,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: they only do it at the time of year when
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: they're building their nests and And they only use that
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: specific twig because they know that's the one they come
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: looking for. And I'm like, these are all very... Again,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: even if it's not smart in the way that we
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: think of it, these are very well thought out plans
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: that may just be nature, but is it nature... improving
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: upon itself? Is it these, you know, they didn't do
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: that for millions of years. These, these creatures have been
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: around forever.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: But I mean, that's always the way nature's been. It's
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: just an arms race. It's just, what are you going to,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is, and it's just, what are you
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: going to do either behaviorally or via some other means
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: to survive long enough to be able to reproduce?
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I mean, it just naturally makes sense.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: It's like, well, either you learn a way to start
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: getting more of these birds or Or you're not going
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: to survive.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: But to the point of using tools. They're going to
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: be climbing out with hammers next. It's just a matter
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: of time. I kind of like that image, by the way.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: Gators building houses and shit. But they did document it
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: like it wasn't just that little group in India or
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: wherever the crocodiles were. They said there were also documented
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: cases of them doing almost the exact same thing in Florida. And, like, that's, like,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: that's not even, like, a specific area, and those sort
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: of pick it up and pass it on. Like, that's
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: almost like a weird genetic thing kicking in at the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: same time.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: Well, it's just convergent evolution. I mean, if species are
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: under similar pressures, even though it might be, you know,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: millions of miles away, they're still going to, in theory,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: behave similarly.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: Do they have any theme parks in India?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: I actually was trying to think, though, you know, all
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: these big, like, SeaWorld and that, they have killer whales,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: but I'm trying to think of actual accredited zoos to
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: where they just try to do breeding programs. Does anyone
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: even try to bother with killer whales? Or is that
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: something where the only time they're in captivity is for
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: novelty purposes?
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: I would think somebody out there, actual marine biologists are
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: doing it. But again, maybe it's like when you were kids.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe you just assume all this is fine. And who
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: knows what's really going on.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Because I'm... I'm racking my brain. I can't think of any.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: There might be. Maybe in San Diego or somewhere, there
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: might be some zoos where they have that component.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: Operations. Well, I did kind of want to know. I mean,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: I know you have definite thoughts on the animal world
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: and the treatment of them, Lucy. What are your thoughts
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: on zoos in general?
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 8: I don't go to zoos.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: But for that specific reason?
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 8: They just make me sad. So yes, I understand the
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 8: impulse to want to understand animals. And I don't think
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 8: that that's a negative thing, but I don't understand wanting
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 8: to pay money to go see a sad animal in captivity.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 8: I don't even understand really preserving species just for the
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 8: sake of preserving them I know that you know people
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 8: say that that's a benefit of zoos if something's dying
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 8: out I don't know why we need to keep two
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 8: alive and torture them forever like it just it just
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 8: doesn't make sense to me.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: Because we have to have them yeah we need them
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: there there are collection of things and that's again for
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: zoos in America that's probably what it is it's like
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: because we can market it because we can say look
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: we saved these animals come see them So, I mean,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: there's a little bit of that that's probably true. But,
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is one of those you feel like,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it is weird. Like, do
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: we feel like we are doing a service to the universe,
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: to the world?
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Just take some species to where they ended up only
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: in captivity and then they had to work their way
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: back out. I think cheetahs got that way in the
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: mid-20th century, is that they were only in captivity. Could
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they got down to
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: that point. They were close, if not. Yeah, so is
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: that something to where... rather than putting them in captivity,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: you would argue just leave as is, and if they're gone,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: they're gone?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 8: Well, you mean they were hunted down and none existed,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 8: but they still remained an important and viable part of
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 8: the food chain? Then yes, I think that's something different,
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 8: but I don't think that they need to, you need
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 8: to sell tickets and have people, I mean, I don't know,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 8: I mean, I don't know that situation at all. So
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 8: I don't know if they, when species are sort of
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 8: dying out and there's no real need for them in
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 8: nature anymore, I don't understand the impulse of keeping them alive.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: Around if it wasn't a showcase would that change it
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: if it was more of a you know a learning
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: structure you know it was more of set up to
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: be just about keeping them around but also studying them
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: and that and it wasn't in a sad little cage
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: selling popcorn over here i mean it does that change.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 8: I mean only if they're an important part of the
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 8: natural order of things i mean if man has just
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 8: decimated a population of something but they're But I think
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 8: that even in that situation, the nature sort of rebounds
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 8: and figures out a way on its own. So I
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 8: don't really think so. I mean, I know, you know,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 8: I've had people talk to me before because I'm vegan.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 8: That's obvious. I'd had people say, well, you know, what
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 8: if people didn't raise cows for slaughter? There wouldn't be
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 8: any cows. And it's just like, okay, I'm super comfortable
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 8: with that scenario. I don't understand the purpose of keeping
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 8: them alive to torture them.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: But what do you mean by important, though? Because you say, well,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: if it's important, it feels like some sort of niche
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: in the ecosystem. If that hole is created, something will
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: eventually fill its way back in. So, arguably, one could
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: say that nothing is ultimately important.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 8: In nature that's what i'm saying i mean i'm not
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 8: a naturalist so i don't know if there's ever a
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 8: scenario where something has to be maintained or the entire
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 8: system falls apart but um that's essentially what i'm saying
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 8: is that i don't see the need for that.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: There's a sick realist part of me that that really
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: like if i want to overanalyze it and i at
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: some point i got to this when i was thinking
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: about it i'm like in actuality because they're almost you
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: know making this point that we should leave everything alone
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: and we should like not mess with any of it.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: But I'm almost like, but we like, as a, as
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: a species, we are part of this little game that's
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: going on and we rose to the top, whatever way
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: that we did. And this is what we do. Like
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: in a way, I feel like the destroying of all
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: these other species is what we do best. Is that
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: part of it? Like it's our own fault that we're,
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: conscious and we should know better than doing it. But
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: as a species, as this mess of humans that we are,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: isn't that essentially what we do? I mean, it certainly is.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: It's what we've been doing since day one, but.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, and that's when you just are left with
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: two major camps. It's either, well, it's what we do
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: as humans. So except your animal nature, it's my animal
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: nature and Lucy's animal nature and yours to basically take
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: whatever resources we want and to have like any other
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: kind of like emotional attachment to it. well, that's just
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: denying your own animal instinct. Or then you could go
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: the opposite route to where it's just, well, we owe
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: it to the organisms that we have screwed over in
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: some way to at least, you know, try and protect
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: what remains.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: Make up for some of the horrors that we've put upon.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: But I mean, I feel like sometimes people get super
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: naturalistic about it. And I'm like, well, if you want
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: to look at the animal kingdom and is sick and
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: vicious as it is to its own kinds, it's like
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: we're part of that system. And I think our destroying
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: everything else as we go on is part of our
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: nature and kind of part of the system if you
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: want to let it go at that. Again, we, being
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: supposedly more intelligent species, should almost know better and shouldn't
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: let it get to that point. But if we're just
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: going on nature alone, like, that's how all nature operates.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: And we, being the most destructive species, we're going to
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: take people out and animals out faster than any other. Like,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: that's our nature more than anything, I feel like.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: But eventually everything reaches a balance. I mean, we can
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: take and take, and eventually something will get rid of us.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Rightfully so. I don't know. I just wondered how all
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: that factors in as to what, I don't know, what's
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: supposed to happen. Because that was the other thing I
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: wanted to ask, I guess, everybody. What is our takeaway?
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Because it does almost feel like they're saying within the
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: film that we should just not do this at all. Like,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: we should leave them off to the ocean... And we
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: stay on the land and we keep our separate, you know.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I think if you're just doing in those scenarios,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: all they're doing, I don't see. Now, granted, it might
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: be skewed and I've never been to SeaWorld, but to me,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: it seems like they're just using the animals the same
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: way that a circus would use animals, where it's just exploitation, entertainment.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't see anything where you might have a zoo
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: to where. there's deliberate breeding program to where they might
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: be trying to restore a certain community of organisms in
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: the wild. And the only reason they even focus on
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: selling like tickets to the zoo is to pay the biologists,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: the money to be able to breed these animals and
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: restore them back into the wild.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: So see, I almost looked at it again. I wasn't
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: even taking the zoo thing into effect or the, or
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: the making up and breeding and trying to fix the,
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: ecosystem or whatever we've messed up our whole balance of
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: life on this planet i was almost looking at it
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: because they're they're showing what complex creatures these are and
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: how they actually can interact with other people if we're
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: almost following the way that they present this that we
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: should just leave them alone i'm like but do we
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: need that bond with them because it shows in the
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: movie how much they can interact with humans and at
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: times they seem to actually enjoy it They.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: Can, but it's not something that they depend on for, like, survival.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: But in the grand scheme of things, you know, if
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: wherever we're going, is that a necessary step that we
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: and this species are supposed to get to a point?
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: Not at this juncture, I don't think.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: But if we totally take it out, do we never
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: get to the point where we need to be?
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 8: It just felt like Stockholm Syndrome to me. Like, you're
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 8: in a bathtub and occasionally somebody comes by and they
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 8: feed you, then you're going to, you know, be excited
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 8: to see them.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't really take it. To me, I mean,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: I can't really see any purpose of trying to, because
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: even if you're trying to preserve some sort of species
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: from going extinct, with whales, they need so much room
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: and so many resources. I can't understand trying to keep
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: something like that in captivity. There's a lot of large, like,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 2: you know, African mammals and that, where it's pushing it
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: to try to keep them. in captivity. So when you're
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: talking like something that large to me, it's utterly impractical.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: And I can't see why you would keep anything like
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: that other than just for the point of entertainment.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: See, I wasn't even thinking of the Stockholm syndrome caged ones.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: I was like the few scenes that we see of
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: them in the wild. And even when we see them
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: like on the side of the boat interacting with humans.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: And it's like, there are moments when it seems like they,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we know that they're social creatures within their own.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: They almost seem like they want to be with, other
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: life forms and it's specifically humans because we can communicate
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 1: back and we're not necessarily just.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: I mean them like being on the side of the
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: boat that's them you know politely acknowledging your presence in
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: their area it's like oh hey how are you i
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: know that you're here but i'm acknowledging that you're not
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: a major threat to me but just be aware i'm
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: here and that's that's all i took that as i
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: didn't take it as hey i'd like to be your
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: friend or something you know.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 8: It's just guessing that it's not impossible from a filmmaking
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 8: standpoint that they gave them some sort of impetus to
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 8: approach the boat that there wasn't some sort of fish
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 8: thrown in the water or something along those lines i
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 8: don't think just out of the goodness of their hearts
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 8: you're like hey let's check out those.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Guys yeah but that one was like two inches away
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: from a dog's head and didn't bite at all so
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: i was like he he at least likes that dog
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: enough he didn't eat.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: It and that again going back from the filmmaking standpoint
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: too it's like oh, let's just show a little dog
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: nuzzling noses with a killer whale. Now you're in love
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: with killer whales. And we'll keep going on that. I mean, yeah,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: from a filmmaking standpoint, you could see where they'd throw
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: in that clip, too. So that way you empathize with
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: the whales and no one else.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: I just felt like that was a weird loophole. Like,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: they almost... make them such characters and show how well
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: they interact with humans. And yet at the end, they're
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: just like, but we never need to do this. And
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: I'm just, well, you've just, I don't know. You spent
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: like an hour and a half making this point. And
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: then you're telling us to never get to that point
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: where some good seemed like it was taking place.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 8: I don't know. I, I love dogs a lot. I
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 8: have a dog. They're great companion animals. If I were
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 8: in a situation where I, the choice was to never
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 8: see a dog again, or to be able to hang
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 8: out with a dog and also be in a cage
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 8: forever and ever, I would choose to never see a
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 8: dog again.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: See, it's funny. I was linking a lot of what
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: was going on. They're sitting next to me watching this, actually.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: They were mostly asleep, not paying attention. But I was
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: using that as an example because it's that same similar situation.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: I feel on some level that I still spend most
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: of my days with these two animals and they are...
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: involved in my life and they're like they're there every
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: step of the way i have what i feel like
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: is a pretty good relationship with these two animals so
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: if we're going back far enough or we at some
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: point somebody should have said you should not domesticate dogs
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: you should never have dogs we're losing this i don't
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: know that it makes a difference but i felt like
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: there was a similarity you'd find something else but again
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: is that not i mean are we not just always
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: going to do that like does it matter that it's
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: a whale versus a dog.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 8: I mean that and their natural lives, they swim hundreds
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 8: of miles a day. Like, I don't think, I don't
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 8: think they need us.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 8: And their natural habitats.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 13: I don't know.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: I still don't. I like, I feel like at some
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: point we made that call. We made that decision, you know,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: generations ago to start domesticating them and making use of
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 1: them and bringing them into our lives for more working
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: purposes initially. But now they just hang out and watch
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: TV with us. So I don't know.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 8: And I mean, I'm against dog breeding. I don't think
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 8: that that's something that should or needs to happen. I
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 8: think at this point there's dogs out there and that
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 8: rescue situations are the most ideal. And I'm assuming that
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 8: that's what most people do at this point.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: Talking about inbreeding for God's sakes. Did you, and this
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: is a minor side note, since we're on dogs, did
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: you see that post that went up that showed the,
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: and again, this sort of ties in as to what
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: we do to creatures on this planet, but like They
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: had a book that was published that showed dog breeds
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: in 1915 versus now, and it is horrible what we
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: have done through mostly inbreeding and through our tweaking of
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: what we felt would make the dog more desirable.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: It's not so much what we felt. It's just because
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: whenever they do dog shows or cat shows, like we
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: used to be rabbit breeders, there's certain characteristics about each
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: breed that the judges are looking for. And so if
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: you find a way to enhance those characteristics, it gives
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: you the inner edge. But I mean, you know, we
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: as human beings do that with everything. It's like, well,
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: what is going to help this win? Well, let's put more.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: of that in there it's.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: So horrible especially like it's frightening to me what a
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: short span of time that is though in like less
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: than a hundred years we have massively changed the way
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: that those breeds.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: Look i mean and a hundred years prior to that
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 2: it was the same deal artificial breeding has been around
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: forever And we do it with plants. We do it
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: with crops, too.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 8: We do it with people as well. I mean, people
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 8: look a lot different than they did 100 years ago
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 8: because there's fashion and there's what we find attractive and
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 8: we evolve and all of that. So what are your
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 8: all stance as non-vegans on zoos and population reintroductions? Because
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 8: I haven't asked that.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: As a non-vegan?
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 8: As a human being.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: As a human being.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: Do I count as that? I don't know if I
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: count as that.
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: Basically, I just see this planet and all the nature
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: that is existing. I mean, it's basically one gigantic puzzle.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: That's why when you say, well, if it's not important,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: everything to me, like, that's what I find is really bizarre,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: that as a vegan, you say, well, this animal's not
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: important within the grand scheme.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 8: Okay, well, let me explain what I'm saying. Like, for instance,
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 8: when they reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone. So the thing was,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 8: they'd been killed off. They didn't exist anymore. And so
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 8: the deer populations were exploding. So instead of being killed
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 8: by wolves in fast and efficient manners, they were dying
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 8: of starvation and they were killing the forest. And that's
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 8: what I mean by essential or non-essential. I'm not saying like.
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: But everything has that role though.
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: So every single organism is essential.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 8: I need to understand your point.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 2: Well, you were just saying if it's important, I was like,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know. To me, all organisms are essential to
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: this planet in some way, shape, or form. And so
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: if something is on the verge of extinction, the majority
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 2: of the extinction, like 90% of all organisms have gone
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: extinct in the past several hundred years, is due entirely
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 2: to mankind. So if somebody is doing what they can
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: to try and undo some harm, so that way some
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: organism can exist, I think they should do that.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 14: Okay.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: And so at least when it comes to zoos, that
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: is going to be an arena in which these organisms,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 2: in a protected environment, they can at least increase their
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: numbers so that way they can try and reintroduce them.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 8: But you also said that the system always rebalances no
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 8: matter what.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, but that's the whole thing is there,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: system rebalances means that this organism, you just let it
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: go extinct. But if you have the opportunity to save it,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: why not save it?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 8: Fair enough. I don't think we're on different sides of
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 8: this at all.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: In that specific situation, I mean, you probably wouldn't have
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: had that problem come about were it not Yellowstone. I mean,
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: were it not a man-made area that we decided to
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: do something with and we came in and got, I
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: don't know, it just seems like that's probably why the
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: wolves died out is because we got involved. So once again,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: man is responsible for messing up that little ecosystem and
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: then we're trying to fix it in our own way, but.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: And also, I mean, it comes to the whole different strokes,
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: different folks things. Cause I can see on Zeus where
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: you do say like some organisms do look depressed. I've
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: been to some scary zoos, but at the other, you
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: also have to look at it from a kid standpoint
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: with a kid being able to like stand next to
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: some organism to where, you know, instead of them just
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: watching it on the documentary, instead of them just looking
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: it up on Wikipedia, they're actually like, they're a few
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: feet away from it and they can have some sort
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: of like moment. That could maybe change that kid to
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: where it changes their perception on how organisms as a
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: whole across the world should be treated. I think there's
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: at least some benefit when it comes to some of
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: that stuff.
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 8: And actually, I think that one of the trainers in
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 8: the film addressed that beautifully, which is that I don't
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 8: want my child to be normalized to this, to thinking
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 8: that it's okay for us to keep these majestic animals
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 8: in captivity.
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 13: Yeah.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 8: I think that, you know, from really, I mean, any
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 8: sort of, you know, like Free Willy or any of
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 8: those movies, people learn what a whale is. And now
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 8: at this point, we do have the capability of creating
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 8: sort of digitized animals where animals don't actually have to
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 8: be harmed and create these narratives. I mean, even for me,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 8: I think a huge part of my development, honestly, in
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 8: terms of, like, animal relationships, was The Fox and the Hound.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 8: It was a Disney animated film about two animals that
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 8: nature don't get along that were super polyamorphized to the
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 8: point where I was just like, oh... this is, that
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 8: it created empathy in me. So I don't think that
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 8: that's impossible outside of these scenarios.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 14: I don't know.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, just objectively, do I think that zoos do
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: more benefit than they do harm? Yeah, I do think
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: on the whole. But at the same time, if zoos
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: suddenly didn't exist and all the animals were in the wild,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: would it bother me?
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 8: No. And I think too, you know, we talk about
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 8: essential versus non-essential animals. I think that that's what I
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 8: probably didn't express as articulately as I could have, that
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 8: I'm saying that If a population is dying out just
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 8: because it's dying out and there's no sort of human intervention,
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 8: it's not because we've hunted a population.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, then there we shouldn't intervene at all.
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 4: Okay, right.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Because that's natural. Okay.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 8: That's all I'm saying in terms of essential versus non-essential.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: On that angle, everything gets taken care of in the
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: grand scheme of things. Everything gets wiped out and moves
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: on and something else comes in.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: Well, it's hard, too. It's like, okay, this frog is
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: going extinct in the rainforest. In Brazil, it's like, there
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: are no humans that interact with it. It's like, well,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: does it deserve to go extinct? It's like, well, no
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: humans have interacted with it directly. It's like, well, why
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: is it going extinct? Well, because just, you know, shifts
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: in temperature and pH levels, it's totally due to climate change. Oh, well,
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: then how much of that climate change is due to
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: humans and how much of that climate change is due
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: to nature? I mean, it becomes like a really, really
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: gray area, too, is always the issue.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: And on that, we start getting into our own weird
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: little reasoning for it. It's like, well, what if we
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: need that frog later for pharmaceuticals? What if we find
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: there's something in a gland in that frog that we
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: let die that we can use to make money later?
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that's always something to consider. Just, you know,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: that's the classic argument for not cutting down sections of
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: the rainforest anyway. It's like just because it doesn't have
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: a value now doesn't mean it won't have a value
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: later because it's almost close to 50 percent of all pharmaceuticals.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: are derived primarily from botanical sources, the majority of which
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: are found in tropical regions.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: But then back to the point you were making about
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: actually seeing an animal and having it change a kid,
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: we also see that exact example in the movie. The
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: one trainer was like, I came here as a little girl,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: and I was like, I saw that, and I went,
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: that's what I want to do. So again, she went
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: about it. in a weird way. And hopefully now there's
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: a better system or maybe after this, there will be
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: a better system. But I think you would also get
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: that at a zoo. I think you could see somebody
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: feeding a baby tiger and you're like, Oh, I want
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: to do that. And then later maybe grow up and
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: find better reasons than baby tigers are cute to want
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: to be involved in that and to want to be
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: part of that structure, whether it's, you know, for, fixing
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: the problem reasons or just for, you know, taking care
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: of the species or whatever. We feel the need to
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: keep doing that. I don't, again, it's one of those,
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: I don't think, I think I still had that little
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: kid version of it. Like, I think I remembered going
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: to the zoo as a kid and I loved seeing
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: the animals. And I think for a long time, I
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: really didn't think about it in any other way. I
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: don't think until recent years of like, what are we
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: doing and why are we keeping them this way? And,
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: and I don't think it clicked at that point because,
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: So it's only now. So I don't know if it
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: is something that we need to bring up with kids now.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: Like she said, you know, the normalcy of kids going
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: to see them in this scenario. Maybe that's true of zoos, too.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: Maybe there needs to be something done differently, and maybe
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: this next generation needs to see that maybe it needs
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: to change.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you just look at how zoos
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 2: have changed in the past 10 to 20 years compared
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: to the way it was 34 years ago, it's, like, drastic. Because...
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: If you go at the Louisville Zoo, both the way
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: they designed the glacier run as well as they designed
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: the islands exhibit, they're having all these animal behavior specialists
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: looking at it to where no animal is set within
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 2: a set area. It's like there's a series of rotations
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: throughout areas. That way you're not in this one enclosed space.
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: There's at least some rotation. They're trying to recreate as
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: much as they can within this simulated environment to get
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: as close to being natural as you can. You're never
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: going to get 100%. But basically, it's like if this
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: organism is within captivity, and the primary reason it's in
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 2: captivity is to try to understand at least mechanics about
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: this organism that you wouldn't be able to do so
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: in the wild. They're at least trying to make it
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: to where it is as seemingly painless as possible for
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 2: those organisms. Because, I mean, that's the only thing is like,
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: if you keep organisms in the wild, but you're in
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: a zoo, but you're trying to study how they behave,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: it's like, it's counterproductive. If it's an artificial environment, you
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: try to keep like, you know, a line or something
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: in here, what good is it going to do for
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: you to try to observe any of its behavior? It's going,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: it doesn't know what the fuck to do in here.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: So it's like a lot of espresso.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: So that's why it's like, you know, I feel like
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: there's a concentrated effort to try to make the habitats
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: in which they keep these organisms, even though they are
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: within enclosed spaces, uh, as close as they can to
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: their natural environment. Cause otherwise the whole point of keeping
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: them captivity is just lost. So, I mean, that's the
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: one thing I found was really interesting about going to the, um,
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: the grass mirror zoo in Nashville is a lot of
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: the planes organisms.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: They have acres.
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: Like you walk five minutes before you get to the
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: next organism because it's a newer zoo. They only started
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: building it in the late nineties, but they're building it
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: with more modern sensibilities to where it's, you give them these,
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: tremendous runs because otherwise it's just a small enclosed space
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: and the ordinance doesn't know what to do with that.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: And you just look at how they've changed, you know,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: the Louisville Zoo since we were kids. I mean, it's
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: night and day because they're just, you know, throwing out
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: all these old based on what they've learned of these organisms,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 2: trying to make things, you know, more natural and something
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: that's going to be a little bit more beneficial. But still,
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: it's always going to be captivity.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 14: So, I don't know.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: I guess just to wrap up, what do you think
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: about this as a film? Like aside from, you know,
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: all the points that we've gotten to, it definitely gives
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: you a lot to discuss.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: The only thing that I think was the drawback is
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 2: most of what you heard about the orcas came from
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: the trainers.
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: And the trainers are not, you know, they have no
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: content background save what they learned from interacting with these organisms.
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: And I think when you were talking about like all
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: the human characteristics that are applied to them, I think
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: that's why, because, you know, they see this and they
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: emphasize and they start anthropomorphizing the animal versus just trying
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: to step back and objectively look at it from a
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: biological point of view. Why is it behaving this way?
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: It might not be that it wants to be your buddy.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: It might just be thinking only of food. So I
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: feel like if they'd spoken with more like Marine biological experts,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: that would have been, a way to kind of even
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: things out a little bit. But, I mean, on the whole,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: I at least enjoyed it.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: With some animals, I feel like it could be.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: I felt like it was almost a little bit too
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 2: short for what it was.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, on that, I feel like a lot of animals,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: you can do that bribery thing. With them, I think
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: maybe we did need a little more into them biologically
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: and just mentally. I mean, they're a very different type
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: of animals.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: But it was interesting that it was a documentary on just...
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: It was almost like a character study of one specific animal.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: It actually lists him as the main star on IMDb.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: He's the first name, which I thought is fun. Hey,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: this murderer is number one.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: And I still see murder as like a human notion anyway, so.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 14: I don't know.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: Again, I just give them more credit than that. I
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: think with a lot of animals, it is like, we'll
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: feed you, you do this. But I think with them,
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: you can see things working that you don't necessarily see
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: in other animals. And some of it is just primal,
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: instinct kind of stuff. And then there's other stuff that
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: I think is a little more premeditated, a little more,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It just seems like there's a little
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: more going on there than you get with your normal animals.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: I think it's just a little more at work. And
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's where I would have liked to have
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 1: seen maybe a little more on the animal itself and see, well,
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: why does it do the things it do in nature?
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: Aside from that, they were sort of focusing on just
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: what's out how bad SeaWorld is, which is their focus.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I feel like it would
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: have done better as a documentary to kind of give
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: us a little more history on what we've learned about
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: them in general before it gets thrown into SeaWorld. Like if, again,
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: they say we didn't know much about them before SeaWorld opened,
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: but I would hope since then, you know, more people.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: Have done more. I can't imagine, yeah, if based on
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: what they just filled us in on SeaWorld, I can't
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: imagine they've learned too much of anything other than how
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: to better breed and train them. And that's about it.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: I just mean outside of SeaWorld. I would hope somewhere
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: there's a marine biologist doing some real work.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, they talked to a couple experts, but it
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: was very, very brief.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 14: Yeah.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: So I don't know. I think it feels it. I mean,
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: most documentaries have a very strong point they're trying to make.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: And this one definitely makes that and seems like it's
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: on that side. But I don't think that's I don't
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: think that's where, you know, it's it's got its problems.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: I think that there is a point to be made
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: there and they're doing it very well. I think it
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: just it does seem like it needed a little something
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: else to balance it out. Maybe a little more information
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: on them. but then maybe a little more information from
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 1: the SeaWorld side. I guess they just didn't want to
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: comment at all, but it seems like it would be
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: interesting to hear why from that angle, other than money,
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: I guess it's sheer greed that they kept doing what
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: they were doing, but it seems like there should have
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: been a system for them to start working almost to
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: save their own ass where this didn't happen down the line,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: that they would have at least gotten somebody involved who
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: would have seen all these red flags that we've talked
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: about and would be like, well, just to keep us
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: out of press trouble like let's put somebody in there
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: to keep an eye on this situation they wouldn't really
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: care about the whales anymore but at least it seems
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: like somewhere along the way they should have had somebody
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: smart enough to go this is gonna come back and
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: bite us in the ass like we need to have
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: somebody there keeping an eye on this situation and they
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: were totally blind to what it looks like but I
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: don't know I would have liked to have seen something
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: again I can see them not wanting to have anything
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: to do with this movie but I'm kind of interested
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: to see how they let it get this far because
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: you saw him like killing people like 25 30 years
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: ago there's signs along the way that it's going to
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: happen again like even with that much money coming in
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: it seems like it would have been to their advantage
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: to to at least have somebody there who knew what
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: they were doing to keep an eye on things but
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: i don't know that's a weird a weird part to
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: the whole story in the real world any final thoughts
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: on it lucy.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 8: No, I mean, I guess I am. I really enjoyed
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 8: it as a documentary. I did feel that we learned
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 8: a lot from experts, you know, the OSHA expert, as
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 8: well as the, I don't know if she was a
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 8: marine biologist, the woman early on. But I mean, you know,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 8: we learned about their hunting habits. We learned about their community.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 8: We learned about, like, what more do you want to know?
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: I think more the way that they interact. Because again,
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: they're focusing so much on how they interact with these
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: people when they get there. And we get those little
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: snippets of how social they are. And we get that
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: moment of how they capture the babies and the others
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: won't leave. That's an amazing moment in the movie. And
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: it's like, I guess maybe I just need to go
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: watch more whale documentaries about nature. But I felt like
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: it would almost balance a little better if we had
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: a little more of that.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: And actually, now that I think about it, maybe that
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: was also the point of the documentary, is if they're
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: only giving you the same pieces of the puzzle that
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: the workers at SeaWorld work, and you and I are like,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: what the hell's the deal there? I want to know
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: more about that. But instead they're just like, yeah, send
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 2: it off. Oh, that whale's acting weird. Okay, let's go.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: It's like, maybe that is almost a point there in
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: and of itself. Is it supposed to like, you, if
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 2: you were like the invisible viewer of all these proceedings
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 2: going on, everyone else is just caring about business as normal.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 2: And you're sitting here thinking, something's wrong here. How can
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: you all not see that? That might've been actually the
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: point now that I think about it.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: Putting you in the shoes of the trainers. That, you know, you're,
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: you're watching this stuff go wrong, but you're completely powerless
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: to do anything about it because they're the ones in charge. They,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: that one guy even says it's not, you know, I
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: spent 20 years of my life with this, but it's
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: not my, it's not mine. It's theirs. They own this thing.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: They can do whatever they want with it. It's their property.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: And that's how they think of it. Whereas he devoted
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: his life to it. But it's like at the end
• 1:35:45
  Speaker 1: of the day, it's still not mine. Like I'm invested
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: in it personally, but they can do whatever they want
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: with it.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 14: So.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: It could be like it could be a conscious choice
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: that they wanted to put you in the perspective of
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: being thrown into the situation, but not really having the
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: information you need about the creatures and also not having
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: any information about what's going on higher up the line
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: that you're just thrown right in the middle of it.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 8: So what do we think about film in terms of
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 8: educating people about animals? Because, you know, zoos predated films
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 8: and television series. And I feel like now, especially with
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 8: the accessibility of cameras that are of a certain size
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 8: and our ability to actually document these animals in their habitats,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 8: like Bo was saying earlier, you can't. really expect for
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 8: an animal to live in its natural state in a
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 8: non-natural environment? I mean, if you put a camera in
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 8: my house and lock the doors, I'm not going to
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 8: be the same person that I would be if I
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 8: were able to have a full life. So, I mean,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 8: are they still relevant? Like, we can keep trying to
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 8: make them more like a real environment, but they're not
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 8: a real environment. And if people are interested in documentaries
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 8: about animals, can that fill the void there in a
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 8: more effective way?
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's more a question of, like, Humans as
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: an individual, it's like, why do you need to relate
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: to something in person if you can watch it on film?
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: Why go to anything if you watch film? Why go
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 2: to concerts if you can watch the concert on film?
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: Why go to an art museum if you can look
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: at a book with print or film?
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: That's definitely true in this day and age, but that's
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 1: probably not what you're saying.
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 8: That's not my point at all because harm is being
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 8: done to these animals in the process, and we're not
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 8: actually learning more about them. We're learning less about them.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 8: Like if I go and see a painting in person,
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 8: I'm learning more about it by interacting with it than
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 8: I would be if I saw it on the Internet.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 8: But it's a completely inverse situation when it comes to animals.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 8: By putting them in this situation, we're learning less about
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 8: them than if we actually documented them in their natural
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 8: habitats and viewed them in that way.
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: So we need to interact with them more like wrestling
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: with bears.
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 2: I think ultimately it probably just depends on the species.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: More than likely. I don't know.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: I think historically speaking, like you were talking about zoos
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: existing before film, I think initially zoos probably had nothing
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: to do with fixing the problem or learning a damn thing.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: It probably was more of a circus angle.
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: I think early zoos were definitely like exploitation.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just we can sell tickets because you've
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: never seen an elephant before because you're a moron from
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 1: Cincinnati and We'll fin Cincinnati. But, I mean, seriously, I
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: think it was one of those that, like, you just
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: brought in weird creatures that it was a sideshow element initially.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: I think it wasn't probably until middle of the century
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: that we... really started. There were people along the way,
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, that were trying to learn and do stuff
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 1: about it. But I think it was maybe, you know,
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: at least in the 20th century that people started trying
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: to make efforts to either learn something from them or
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: fix some of the problems that we'd created along the way. Again,
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: whether or not they've made any progress is arguable.
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 13: Yay!
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 14: Whales.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: We're ending on the same upbeat note that we started on.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: All right. Have we said everything we need to about blackfish?
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: I believe so.
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: I don't think we've solved the problem. We've just commented
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: upon it. All right. Well, we do want to... Say
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: thank you to Nancy's Bagels for letting us come loiter
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: around here and pass this important blackfish information on to you.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: So thank you to her and nancysbagels.com. Come here if
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: you're in the area and support them because they're supporting
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: us by letting us loiter around and drink their coffee.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: All right. Otherwise, that about does it. We will return
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: next week. Same geek time, same geek feed. Thanks for listening.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 11: The sun was in clouds The sun looked out Exposed
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 11: a trail Mist and spouts.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 6: Ships follow the ancient lead.
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 5: Deceiving friends under the sun.
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 7: Wow, imagine that.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 6: They won't fight back.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 11: I've got a theory on that.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 6: A whale's heart is as big as a car.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 11: A whaler's thought must.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 7: Be smudged by the dark. They won't fight back.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: I'm sure they know how.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 5: Beings they love are too proud.
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 7: They won't fight back.
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 11: I'm sure they know how.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 5: Beings they love are too proud. They swim, it's really free.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 5: It's a beautiful thing to see.
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 7: They sing.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 5: Hunters of land, hunters of sea.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 7: Exploit anything for money I refer to anybody That takes
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 7: advantage of what that is.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 5: Free It's only.
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 11: A thought That makes it seem right What you don't
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 11: see Is because of your sight Take what you want
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 11: kill what you can that's just one way from a
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 11: mind of men take their lives sell their hearts but
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 11: there's no taking of their.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 6: Hearts if I was lost at sea that harpoon boat
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 6: in front of me it's the way I'd like to be.
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: Is there more than bagels here?
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, there's a wide array of food choices.
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: I don't see any bagels right now. Everything bagels?
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: You can have those, yes, yes.
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 2: I'm wondering how long poor Brian just cuts off the
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: show that I can go on.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: It might already be over.
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right.
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: Soups, sandwiches, smoothies, take your pick. There's many options to
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: choose from.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 2: He's getting defensive. I'll put the mic down.
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: Not really, I was just telling you.
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: As defensive as he was during the Yeti show when
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: we called him out on making straight bagels.
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's just because you don't know what a
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: bagel is. You know what a shape is, but you
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: don't know what a bagel is.
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: I know what a breadstick is, too, and my friend,
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 2: that was.
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: Like a weird... I bet you they don't make breadsticks
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: like they do bagels.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 7: This is over!
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 4: I win!
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 14: This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown, produced and
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 14: edited by The Oddity Studios. with opening music performed by
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 14: the Empires. For more on how to sponsor or support
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 14: the show, email producer at moviemeltdown.com.
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 4: Talk hard!