Latest / Skin Anarchy / Decoding Skin Barrier Support Ft. CODEX Labs - Masterclass Monday Feature

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Decoding Skin Barrier Support Ft. CODEX Labs - Masterclass Monday Feature · Skin Anarchy

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to anarchies.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host Ekta and I have the wonderful, wonderful Dr.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Paldus here with us again today from Codex Labs.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: We are doing our second episode in the masterclass series with Codex, and it's going to be a fun one.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you guys had a chance to tune in for our first episode of the series.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't, I really suggest you go back, tune into that.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: But welcome back, Barbara.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to be hosting you again.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be back, Ecta.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's, you know, it's really great to have you because, you know, last time we really went into depth, you know, about skin microbiome, the testing around it, the relationship, you know, of the skin and the gut and all of that, you know, skin-gut access.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also talked about your supplements um that you guys have under the shot collection.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we talked about all of those wonderful things that really improve the overall, you know, just skin health and also in the context of acne, right?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I want to kind of start there.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I really want to talk about, you know, what would be, you know, in your own words, what would you consider the most important topic when it comes to skin care in this regard?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: So other than the microbiome, I would say it's the physiology of skin and more specifically the skin barrier.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know that may not sound very exciting, but it does tie actually back into the skin microbiome.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm always amazed by skin, you know, how thin it is, like even at its thickest point, it's typically a few millimeters thick.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you weigh it all out, right, all the skin that covers our body, it's still our heaviest and largest organ.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So about our seventh of our body weight.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so depending on your height and body mass, it can be anywhere from kind of seven and a half pounds to 22 pounds.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then the surface, like if you peel the skin and lay it out, you know, I know that sounds gross, but um the surface area is kind of 15 to 22 square feet, right?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And yet the thickness is anywhere between half a millimeter, like just 500 micron on the our eyelids, to basically maybe four millimeters on the heels of our feet.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So to me, it's just this amazing organ.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's amazing.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you gave us those facts because I think that's something people really don't consider is this difference in thickness, you know, depending on where you are on the body and what that really means, you know, in the overall context as well, you know.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really important to cover.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I I find it interesting, you know, you had mentioned um the skin barrier.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to actually talk about that a little bit more in depth.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you could go into like the different layers of the skin and explain them to us, you know.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So there's basically three layers.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's the epidermis, um, which contains the skin barrier, the dermis and the hypodermis, or the subcutus.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, normally cosmetics and skincare aren't intended for the hypodermis.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's too deep, and that's kind of the fatty layer that also connects our skin to nerves and blood vessels and the rest of our bodies and regulates our temperature.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll talk quickly about the epidermis and the dermis.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So um the epidermis is essentially the top layer.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's the part we see, that's the part we can touch.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, keratin, which is a protein inside skin cells, makes up the skin cells and along with other proteins, sticks together to form this layer.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this layer is only 20 micron thick, so about a third of the diameter of a human hair.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: That also always blows our mind.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, now, why is it important?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a protective barrier.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it keeps bacteria and germs from entering our body and bloodstream, so it prevents infections.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it also protects us against the elements, right?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like runt, um rain, sun, etc.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: It makes new skin.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it's constantly making new skin cells.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these new skin cells then replace approximately 40,000 old skin cells that we shed every day.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you're about 30, you have new skin uh roughly every 30 days.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you're 50 like me, that's more like six to eight weeks.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's also really important because it can lead to other skin diseases if there's a disruption there, like psoriasis, for example.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: It protects us.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the Langarhot cells in the epidermis are actually part of our immune system.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's amazing that our immune system is embedded in our skin.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, it also provides the color of our skin.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the epidermis contains melanin, which is the pigment that gives our skin its color.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so, pretty much the amount of melanin then determines the color of your skin, your hair, your eyes.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so people who make more melanin have darker skin, they may tan more quickly, and they also have more protection against skin cancer.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, but we've definitely heard that the melanin, you know, a little bit, we've I don't think anyone ever goes into depth about that either, you know.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a really good that you mentioned that, you know, and in terms of just understanding what the epidermis's role is, because obviously we're dealing with topical products here, but it's also, again, you know, important to consider the dermis.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you to tell us about what is the role of the dermis, because that is the thickest layer, right?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I would if we can dive in.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's basically the middle layer.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: It makes up about 90% of the skin thickness.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we have our collagen.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's what makes an our lastin, and that makes our strength skin basically strong and flexible.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we grow our hair.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where our hair follicles are embedded.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we have nerve receptors, so that's where we actually feel pain.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we produce our sebum and our sweat.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: So basically our um water and the oil that comes back up on top of the skin.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also where we have blood vessels to provide nutrients to the epidermis.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really, really important.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's interesting.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: So now when we kind of swing back to the epidermis, you know, going back into that and learning more about, you know, what really is the skin barrier then, you know, like what does that really mean?
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because people use this word so much, you know, the skin barrier is what we want to protect.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: But then, you know, going back to your conversation, I'd love for you to kind of tell us about that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what really is that?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna get a little bit technical here.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um everyone will have to forgive me a little bit for that, but I want to be pretty precise.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um the epidermis primarily consists of these keratinocyte cells.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the those are about 90% of its cells, but they also contain the melanocytes for the melanin, Langerhan cells for the immune systems, myple cells, and other inflammatory cells.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually um layers.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the deepest portion of the epidermis is called the stratum basale, then there's the stratum spinosum, the stratum granulosum, the stratum lucidum, and finally the stratum corneum, which is the most superficial portion, the part on the outside that sheds the cell.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So there's really five layers in the epidermis.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so your new skin cells develop at the bottom layer.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's stratum basale, and they travel up through the other layers as they get older.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then the outermost layer, the stratum corneum, is basically where they sloth off.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's really the wall that holds water and keeps your skin hydrated and healthy.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's about um 10 to 30 thin layers of continually shedding dead keratinocytes.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it kind of sounds gross.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, these are flattened corneocytes that divide into two layers.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, again, um, so there's kind of two layers in that fifth layer called a stratum compactum and the stratum disjunctum.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: So in Latin, that basically means the cohesive layer, kind of the deeper, denser layer, um, and then the disjunctum, which is disjoint, which is the looser and superficial layer, which is where the cells fall off.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, damage to the stratum corneum, which again is so thin, can lead to actually skin health impairment, including increased transepidermal water loss, which means dehydration, redness, susceptibility to infection, irritation, etc.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the physical part of the skin barrier.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So this is one half of it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's really the physical defense mechanism where these cell, um, where these cells, which are surrounded by and tightly held in place by oily compounds like your sebum that are naturally produced, create a kind of a brick wall you can visualize.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um the cells are the bricks and they're locked in place by the lipid matrix, which is the mortar.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the acid mantle, which is the biological plaster that surrounds the exterior of the wall, is the skin microbiome.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of back to talking about the skin microbiome.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the biological defense mechanism, um, also called the acid mantle.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a thin film that resides on the surface of the stratum corneum, and it is made up again of skin oils produced by the body and amino acids from sweat.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the microbiome kind of takes these natural bodily fluids that we produce and excrete, and that's basically its food.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And its main function is again to balance and to provide good diversity between the good and harmful bacteria there living on the surface.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we pretty much talked about last time relative to our preservative system, Preserve X.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: The last thing we want to do is disturb this natural environment.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so our preservative system and all of our products is geared towards leaving it alone because if it's healthy and it's diverse, it's protecting us, it's working, and we don't have to worry about it.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: So think skin barrier is the physical part, which is the cells held together by this lipid matrix, and then the microbiome, which is the living part on the very outside, which you know absorbs the UV, helps us against infections, and is a really important part of our skin too.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's so interesting.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's it's a really interesting way to think about the microbiome too, I feel like, because I, you know, these days there's so many people, they're just I think consumers have this like mindset of like the microbiome is just a big, thick layer of bacteria on the top of your skin.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that's really puts it into perspective.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I I like that visual that you gave us.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's super thin, and we're talking like still, this whole thing is like the third of a diameter of a human hair.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to keep that just always blows my mind.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's very, very, very interesting.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that really also puts a lot of things in context, like why we're using so many exfoliants, why we're, you know what I mean, all that kind of stuff that we put.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we destroying our natural wall?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really the where the next question comes in is like, what do you think a real healthy skin barrier, like why is that important?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's really dive into that because it's important for us to understand, I think, this concept first and foremost.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I would say like the simple is a simple way of looking at it is a healthy skin barrier is essential for maintaining skin health and preventing skin problems.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when the barriers compromise, you get dryness, you get itching, you get redness, you get inflammation.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then worse, when you start scratching it, you get infection.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it can be compromised by a variety of factors, for example, harsh skincare products, like you were mentioning, overexfoliation, um kind of bleaching products, um, too much microneedling, environmental factors, such as UV and pollution.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, not wearing enough SPF or just basically being in a polluted environment.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there is always a genetic component.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's so crucial for maintaining overall skin health, you know, we want to prevent that water loss, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: We basically talked about transepidermal water loss.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So we want it to keep the moisture inside the skin, otherwise it gets dehydrated and dry.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we want it to basically then protect us from preventing too much heat loss or protecting against the cold.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously we want to protect against pollution, harmful microbes, and irritant.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's really important to keep it healthy and a healthy skin barrier basically does its job.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes so much sense.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I love that you explain that um in the way of like what happens when we don't have it be healthy.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like with all this water loss, the like you had all the things you just mentioned, because I think that's something we see a lot.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I really see consumers instead of understanding this concept, they'll go and they'll buy more products and they'll try to like come with.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry to interrupt, like you see all these people saying, Oh, do all these chemical peels and do all this retinol, which basically increases the aggressiveness of the turnover.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then people are like, Well, I want this soft skin.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like, yeah, but you know, within 30 days, that soft skin is going to be peeling off again because that's just how our skin works.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then people start compromising the skin barrier by overdoing it, and they're like, Oh, well, then now you should put Vaseline on and slug.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like, well, now do you know what you're doing to your microbiome?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like all these beauty suggestions, you know, I hate to say it, but people are almost better off leaving their skin alone and less is more.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I a hundred percent agree with you.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I really think that it's such a it's such a deeper topic, too, right?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like, you know, once you've damaged it, I mean, then repairing it, that's where I think people need a lot more education.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what I want to ask you next is, you know, how do we go about repairing, you know, a compromised skin barrier?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like what are the right steps to take?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what actually let's maybe start um back a step and say what happens if it becomes compromised and what the consequences are, because I think people need to understand that because we're constantly pushed with all these products and buy more, and it's not only not good for our environment because we're producing all this plastic garbage, but it's also actually not healthy for our skin.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about the skin barrier, you have to think of it as being constantly under attack.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So overcleansing, exfoliation, that all wears away the biological and physical defense mechanisms.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the acid mantle is often impaired when you use conventional skin cleansers, which are usually more alkaline.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they have a pH from about 10 to 11 as compared to the natural pH of the acid mantle, which is four and a half to five and a half.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also something people need to understand that you need to get cleansers that have a pH close to your skin.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, when you're using something that's very alkaline, that obviously changes the pH and the microbiome.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And basically the bacteria start dying off, you stop having the homeostasis and the balance with the microbiome.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, and that's true of any skincare product that you apply on a daily basis.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now the microbiome will recover, but if you constantly keep beating it up, at some point, you know, it does give up.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you definitely want to look for products ranging, you know, from four and a half to five and a half to support and preserve the microbiome, but also the skin barrier.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it comes to the physical piece of it, you know, these the same daily use kind of cleansers and exfoliators over time, they wear away at the cells and the lipids, and the wall basically starts forming cracks and gaps, and they that basically starts forming a path for pathogens, so the bad bacteria to get in and moisture to get out.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you start drying.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So cleansers, for example, that have strong surfactants like sulfates.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they remove dirt and grime, but they remove all the lipids, they remove that mortar from the brick wall.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, daily skincare products that contain ingredients meant to stimulate cell turnover, such as you know, glycolic acid, alpha hydroxy acids, retinol, they chip away at the bricks far faster than the bricks would normally fall off.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that weakens the structure and integrity of the skin barrier.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why a lot of dermatologists, you know, when people overdo it, basically tell people to go do nothing for a month to let their skin barrier kind of naturally heal itself, right?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: On top of that, obviously, you know, UV and pollutants damage the skin barrier with free radicals.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, the free radicals form on the surface of the skin.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And there, what is a free radical?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: You might be wondering, it's a molecule that is short one electron.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it wants to get the electron from somewhere else.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very unstable, very reactive, and it basically steals the electrons from things like cells and molecules in the skin, which basically damages them.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that reaction can become a cascade, and that basically can start killing your skin cells.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: So um the other things that you know we do that you know don't help our skin barrier is we don't sleep enough, we have hormonal changes as women, and you know, we build up chronic inflammation as we age.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is the exposome, and it's what you've kind of been exposed to over the course of your life.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so by reducing stress, by reducing inflammation, by eating properly, by sleeping, by exercising, by drinking enough water, all those are basic things we can do to fix the skin barrier.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the the basically the worst case is as you said, when it gets to inflammation and there's an infection, and then you have the rapid and painful deterioration.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I love how you explain that because there's this thing, you know, I like for example in medical school, they teach us about things like sleep hygiene and like all of these things that really go hand in hand with just overall health.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I always find myself wondering why we don't apply that same concept to our skin health.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like we've as an industry, we've come to this place where, like you were mentioning, you know, use a glycolic acid every day.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Why would we do that?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and it's like it just makes you wonder like, you know, the misinformation has gotten to a point now where it's like we are just using products for the hell of using products, you know, we don't understand their mechanism.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we are really thinking of it in that framework which you explained, which is the brick and mortar framework, you know, it's like it starts, it really does make sense, you know, nutrients above depleting nutrients, really, right?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's really what I got, you know.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're starving the microbiome, so then it can't protect us, then it becomes unbalanced, then you can get infections, you know, and then we're wondering why we have little red dots on our face or little, you know, micro irritations and microabrasions, or why we get that red spot in the middle of our forehead, even though we didn't really do anything that we can think of.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's because, again, the industry, I think, is so concerned about growth and selling products and having all these products.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I mean, who has the time for a 17-step routine?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like at one point, there were like these 12 or 17-step Korean routines.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like you're doing that every day.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, imagine what you're doing to your microbiome and your skin barrier.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know the industry doesn't want to hear less is more because then people buy fewer products, but it's easier on the wallet and it's easier on the planet because we're not putting out so much garbage.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, exactly.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I 100% agree with you.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: I completely and you know it's crazy to me because you see so many, like, even with you know, the science, like you've you've such, you know, you've described the science so beautifully, but even with that, you have marketing come in and use words, you know what I mean, to try to sell products to try to help fix a skin barrier.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why I had I was gonna ask you, like, you know, what is the real fix for a compromise skin barrier?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, people love using words like, you know, oh yeah, this is um an acidic pH, it's gonna help you a lot, you know, it's gonna restore the acid mantle, but it's like you need a lot more than an acidic pH to restore the acid mantle, you know what I mean?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just it's not a quick fix kind of thing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I think my question really goes uh back into that area of like, you know, what are um the things that you do to just kind of reseal the skin barrier?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you need more of, you know, in your in your products that you are using if you have a damaged skin barrier that you should be utilizing to try to bring things back to normal?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the first step, you know, how we talked about when that brick and mortar well becomes damaged, you have excessive water loss.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the transepidermal water loss situation basically um goes way up.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're constantly dehydrating.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing is, you know, moisture is critical.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so you need a moisture-sealing lipid matrix to be restored for the skin barrier to really start being repaired.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so products containing ingredients known as emollients should be applied to the skin surface.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are emolents?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're flexible, they're wax-like ingredients, they sink into the skin, they fill in the gaps.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So they basically fill in that missing mortar between the skin cells, and then they're analogous.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the best is to get emollients that are analogous to the skin's natural lipids.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that can then start holding that physical defense mechanism back in place.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, um, I would say examples of suitable emollients would be fatty acid esters, so like glyceryl stearate to look for in the inky list, fatty alcohols like ceteryl alcohol, um, aloe vera plant-based oils, for example, um almond oil is great, sunflower oil is great, hojoba oil is great, and then ceramides and squaline.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, those are kind of ingredients to look for in a product to repair the skin barrier, um, because that starts addressing the issue about the dry dehydrated skin.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also important at the same time to rehydrate the skin.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, A, you know, the stupid thing, drink plenty of water, you know, keep the inside of your body properly hydrated.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it can facilitate skin rehydration from the inside out because the body naturally directs water to the skin.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then there's also other ingredients that you can use to typically expedite the rehydration process.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the most commonly, you know, these are the humectins because they're hygroscopic.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, they attract water molecules.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the humectant will attract water to itself from either the lower layers of the skin as well as the surrounding ambient air.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then by applying a product containing this humectin onto the surface of the skin, you basically draw water from both directions and accelerate the rehydration process.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, examples would be hyaluronic acid and glycerin.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say alpha hydroxy acids like glycolic and lactic at low concentrations can be great for skin, even sensitive skin.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I would stick to hyaluronic acid and glycerin to start.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that basically seals it, rehydrates it, and then you can start dealing with the oxidative stress.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So basically the moisturizer, and then I would say, you know, take a moisturizer that's microbiome-friendly and free of all these potent actives like retinol.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you're gonna undo all the good that you started to do.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: See, now that actually I'm glad you brought this up because the humectant part and the ceramide part is so important, I feel like, especially right now in the industry, because we kind of see that everywhere.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where we're seeing a lot of ceramide based products, a lot of people saying, This is full of all the ceramides, you know, you need this.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's great.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I I want to ask you do you need more than just something with ceramides and a humectant in it?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Should we be looking for other ingredients as well, or is that enough?
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's actually not.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the interesting part.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the ceramide, the moisturizer, the ceramide and the humectin are critical to kind of you can think of it as like that's your emergency response, right?
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that still doesn't heal the patient.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's necessary to stop the moisture evaporation and the dryness and to start the healing process.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: But once it's been resealed and rehydrated, the real repair process has to begin.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so essentially the first thing is to simplify your daily skincare routine because you don't want to over-treat that skin with different types of products.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that that's a contributing factor.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the dermatologist says basically use this one moisturizer hydration cream.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Don't use anything else for a couple of weeks, you know, and then you can start basically, because you're exposing the skin to fewer and only essential skincare products, the stratum corneum can start repairing itself without having to deal with an onslaught of other chemical ingredients, right?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: That usually cause the damage in the first place.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is that a lot of barrier creams on the market still ignore the microbiome.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's that's where I really wanted to go with this because um I was asking you about the ceramise because we have a lot of creams like that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a lot of people selling products that say, this is barrier repair, this is barrier, this, you know, it's gonna fix everything.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really confusing it, I think, to myself and also any consumer.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what does that really mean?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a barrier repair cream.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, does that address the microbiome?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Does it damage it?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Does it fix it?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like what does that mean for us?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, you know, what it is, it's probably a moisturizer and a humectin.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: So your ceramide and your humectin.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more like a skin barrier sealant, but it's not necessarily skin barrier repair, because if you remember, the skin barrier is the physical part and the biological part.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to the repair of the acid mantle, you know, it's a different story.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of barrier creams, for example, have preservatives like parabens and phenoxyethanol, or they contain zinc.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those are not the most microbiome-friendly ingredients because they're, you know, very effective antimicrobials for preserving the product, but that's not the greatest thing when you're actually putting that on your own microbiome, which is already, you know, hurt.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And recent studies actually have shown that fermented ingredients not only have less of an impact on the natural skin microbiome, but might even help reinforce it because they may contain probiotics.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, biotech-based antimicrobial antimicrobial peptide from fermentation of lactic acid.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, our good old lactobacillus fermentation, you know, our good old kimchi sauerkraut, yogurt lactobacillus, incredibly effective to destroy pathogenic bacteria that can grow in the product and prevent it from spoiling, but support the microbiome that's actually on the skin, probably because we've been eating it and slathering yogurt on our cells, we've kind of co-evolved, so our microbiome is used to it.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so using products with fermented preservatives, you know, it remains balanced.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the skin becomes healthier and protected against these pathogenic bacteria.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um I think basically I would say fermented preservatives appear to be, at least in the early literature, superior to their synthetic counterparts.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so when it comes to microbiome maintenance, and so that's something to look for in the inky list of the product.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I find that to be really interesting.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, basically with the microbiome itself, you know, um, I find it to be intriguing, like what actually feeds it, you know.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm just sitting here thinking, like, what actually feeds and you had addressed this earlier when you had said that, you know, there are natural things secreted by our skin that actually feeds.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Our sebum, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Our sebum and our and basically our sweat with the amino acids in it.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we feed it, we know how to feed it.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't need other things, like because there's the and the reason I say that is because I have so many, there are so many options I feel like right now, where they're literally saying, you know, this cream or this serum is what your microbiome needs to thrive, you know.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, if it already exists, why do you need to keep feeding it other stuff?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's already.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, I it makes sense.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: It actually makes sense.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people have been doing that for centuries too.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, in the Middle East, I mean, kefir and other fermented products, I mean, they they've been using it for wound healing for centuries.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, exactly.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think it's it's really, really interesting and it really kind of opens up like a lot, you know, especially once you start understanding like something as simple as yogurt and how much it's been used in various ways.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we had last time spoken about the gut and you know, the gut skin access and all this stuff.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But even when you look at gut health, you know, I know from my own experience, people will first thing doctors are gonna tell you is do you eat yogurt?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, do you utilize yogurt?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like or when you get antibiotics, they're like, make sure you eat yogurt, make sure you have a probiotic drink with your antibiotics.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, I think it's like these simple principles that get so lost for some reason because we look at the skin and we start thinking, oh my god, this is like a highly complex organ and we have to do everything different, but we don't, you know, it is the same, it's the same idea.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I I find it interesting, you know, this it's a really interesting point, Barbara, because I think so many products, like you had said, you know, they're products are helping us seal the stratum corneum wall and they're helping to rebuild the stratum corneum, um, you know, filling it, filling in that mortar, but um, they're not really ideal, right?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: For biologically for the microbiome.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you need more sealing?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, quote unquote, do you need more of that um for the stratum corneum to be at its healthiest, for the skin barrier to be at its healthiest?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what is what is your opinion on that?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say that, you know, again, you could use a plant-based oil to seal your skin barrier.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, obviously, you know, there's a lot of marketing around idealized ideally optimizing your NP and EP ceramides and the mix in the skin and matching the skin.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying that that's bad, um, you know, but I'm just saying, well, what about the inflammation?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that can result.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, who's treating the inflammation?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: So we kind of got the sealing part, we got the hydration part, now we talked about the microbiome part, but you still have a piece of your body that's not happy and is inflamed because um, you know, it it leads to its inability, you know, once it's dehydrated, then the inflammation has to be addressed because otherwise it will still keep being irritated.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so inflammation-related degradation, you know, down in the lower layers can become things like loss of collagen.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody wants to lose collagen in their dermis, you know, and a stress-free environment, you know.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, I think it's important to also not forget anti-inflammatory and antioxidant ingredients when you're trying to heal and soothe your skin barrier.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, yeah, I like that you said that because there is that whole inflammosome conversation as well, you know, about how that is really.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think a lot of people now are realizing it's better to say um, you know, anti-inflammatory than anti-aging, you know, like things like that are now finally peaking up, you know, out of the out of the woodworks.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really interesting about the inflammation because we don't really, I think as general consumers, inflammation and that word itself is confusing because when I think of inflammation, obviously I'm thinking, you know, you and I are thinking from this like scientific perspective, right?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: But then most consumers will say things like, well, my skin's not red.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So is it really inflamed?
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like is it really like is there inflammation going on?
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is yes, you know, it's only Well, by the time it's red, it's a real problem, right?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: We want to avoid that.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: We want to avoid, yeah, I agree.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, that's really, I think it's important to to really kind of point that out too, because a lot of times we look for that, you know, it's like somebody'll do acid peel, something we were talking about earlier, and then they'll see this extreme redness come up.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, oh my God, now I'm inflamed.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh no, you were inflamed a while ago.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this just triggered it.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like psoriasis.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can have the genetics for psoriasis, and as long as your chronic inflammation is low, you're fine.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then the moment you get like super stressed or you get, you know, an infection or something, it can trigger the psoriasis event.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right, exactly.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, speaking of psoriasis, I think it's important to also talk about what you had mentioned about, you know, when the skin barrier is damaged, you get this dehydration, you get this transient movement of pathogens, you know, you get leaking of pathogens.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what how does all of that have to do with the inflammation that results?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, can you walk us through that?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: So basically what you just said is the inflammation um can lead to excessive oxidative stress that in turn makes the inflammatory cascade worse.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that inflammatory cascade eventually can make you red and super itchy and super uncomfortable, and it can happen very quickly.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, you know, while the use of products and anti-inflammatory properties is necessary for treating inflammation and facilitating barrier repair, it's also, you know, this reactive oxygen species, which are these free radicals, these things that are unstable and want those electrons and also non-free radical oxygen intermediates, it's important to kind of quench those, to get rid of those, to cleanse your body of those.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, why are these harmful?
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they react pretty much with everything and they steal electrons wherever they can find it.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so basically they start damaging cells, cells start dying.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: When cells start dying, they release this tumor necrosis factor, which tells other cells, hey, we're all dying.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a good effect in your skin, because then that can go into your deeper epidermis and your dermis, where you have your skin structure compounds like your collagen and your elastin.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so that can actually, if unchecked, can lead to more extensive cellular damage beneath the surface.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so what you want are really neutralizing antioxidant defenses to neutralize these free radicals, to basically go around and clean them up.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so we naturally produce these again.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a great source to clean up our free radicals, except when the skin barrier is compromised, they're not enough.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so basically, there's a free radical overload.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so also, you know, I hate to always admit this, but as we age, you know, we produce fewer and fewer of these natural antioxidants.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that makes this free radical situation worse.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to assist the body again, and this can come from the inside, and that can come from the outside.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we're back to this skin-gut, you know, duality.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I think that that's that's really interesting, is that the and the whole oxidative stress component, you know, um, so you were really saying that it the oxidative stress, it's going to lead to a worsening of your overall inflammatory cascade.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of worsening.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And damage of the skin barrier.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so even if you moisturize it and you seal it, if this reactive oxidative stress is still ongoing, it's still going to be falling apart underneath that layer that's keeping the water from getting out.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's signaling.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: See, this is what no one wants to talk about is like actual cell signaling, I feel like.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I I remember a few years ago I had had this debate with a colleague of mine, and we were talking about how they're like, you know, no one cares about the act of nobody cares about the molecular biology of this stuff.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, that's retarded.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's just how it works.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it that's how it works.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's stupid to not even consider it, you know.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the reality of how things are really coming to fruition.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's people again with the whole you know concept of redness, right?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like underneath the redness is this giant cascade of events that occurred that caused the redness.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's in your dermis, it's in that thick layer, it's where your blood vessels are.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: So by the time you're red, you know, you're affecting that thicker, more structural layer, not just your skin barrier.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I completely agree with you.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really glad that we're doing this deep dive because I think there's a lot of education that needs to, you know, be expanded on here.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, I mean, it's it is about molecular biology, it is about the cascade, it is about all of these nitty-gritty details.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that really leads me to really ask you about the what, you know, a good barrier repair product, you know, should contain and really the role of antioxidants and the emollients and the humectants that you had mentioned earlier, you know, all of those combined.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in your opinion, what is that good repair product?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it should obviously have the emollion and the humectin.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: It shouldn't hurt the microbiome, but on top of that, it does, it should have broad spectrum antioxidants.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, what I mean by broad spectrum, both oil soluble, so hydrophobic and water-soluble, hydrophilic Y, um, the more oily antioxidants or antioxidants dissolved in more of a lipid layer, um, scavenge and neutralize free radicals on the surface.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the hydrophilic ones, the ones that are water soluble, can basically penetrate through the skin barrier and penetrate into the dermis and scavenge and neutralize the free radicals there.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you basically need both.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of need that outer protective shield and that inner penetrating kind of water-based to essentially get through your skin barrier and go deeper.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because, you know, if it can penetrate not just the stratum corneum, but also deeper into the epidermis and dermis, then that can help you re-densify your skin and rebuild your collagen naturally by neutralizing these reactive oxidative stress species.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most barrier creams don't contain penetration enhancers and they stay mostly at the surface.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they're basically like they seal the wall and that's all they do.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: So do we need then?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you had mentioned, like, you know, the there needs to be something that penetrates, there needs to be something that stays on top.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we need, do we need more than one product?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what does that really mean in terms of how many products we need to repair the barrier?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: So typically you would actually have three products in total.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of them would have this pH between four and a half and five and a half, like we talked about, and all of them would be microbiome-friendly tested.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the first is obviously you need to gently wash your face, you know, morning and night to get the pollution off, to get makeup off.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the first is a gentle cleanser, but that does not strip your natural oils.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the second is a serum that has penetration enhancers like a glycerin and can deeply penetrate through to the dermis, delivers both hydration, like the glycerin as a humectant, as well as your antioxidants to reduce this oxidative stress throughout the various layers.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: The last would be a moisturizer that also hydrates.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, it could have hyaluronic acid, and that seals the stratum corneum with amolions, but it also delivers antioxidants into the stratum corneum, and it also creates that surface pollution protection layer to basically zap those free radicals before they can even make it on your skin.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, and that would be your uppermost layer before you put on your SPF because most SPFs are not really microbiome-friendly either.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you want some kind of buffer layer for your microbiome.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: So really, we okay, so three products is what you said.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like a good routine is a three-step routine too, these days.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that that actually makes a lot of sense to me as a consumer.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's affordable and it doesn't take that much time.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, especially for older skin, you do want that antioxidant, you know, deeper in your dermis to help you support your collagen so you don't get saggy face.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes sense.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, what about like what what else can we do?
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know last time we had talked about the wonderful supplements you guys have in the Shant collection.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, really want to talk about that.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, should we be incorporating supplements?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, or anything else that you think we should be adding on to like a three-step routine?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, again, I think everything is inside out and outside in.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that's an excellent point, Ecta.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously, hydration, you know, that's the easy free thing you can do.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Drinking lots of water, um, also consuming foods high in omegas, so oily, fatty fish, nuts, olive oil, flax seeds, um, and things like beta-carotene, right?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sweet potatoes, yams, spinach, carrots, you know, those are all great for providing nutrients for repairing and supporting your skin barrier.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Also consuming fruit rich in vitamin C or drinking green tea, um, which contains ECGC and L-theanine in it.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that all helps reduce the oxid, the general chronic oxidative stress in your body and therefore your skin barrier.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so to your point, you know, we actually have developed and are launching a new supplement called skin barrier support supplement, which is designed to fortify and restore the skin barrier.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it basically contains the same active that's in our on-to-skincare line.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's basically you're ingesting it as well as putting it on your skin.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this is this M3, um, except it's been phenolically enhanced.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what it is, it's uh an adaptogenic antioxidant phytocomplex from three plants, machemoticomortia, um, and that contains anthocyanyl, uh, anthocyanins, flavanols, and flavonoids.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: So these are very um high antioxidant capacity um polyphenols, and those reduce irritation, they reduce inflammation, and basically by reducing chronic, you know, gut inflammation and general body inflammation, they help protect you against this oxidative stress.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then we've also added um pure alhistine at a clinically meaningful level.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that basically means enough that um clinical studies have actually shown it to be effective for supporting the skin barrier.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean four grams of serving.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's quite a bit.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's basically a skin soothing amino acid polypeptide.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's used by your body to repair damaged skin tissue in general because it helps your body synthesize phalagrin, which is a protein that's a key building block of the skin barrier, as well as your natural moisturization factor, which is basically your natural way for your skin to attract and retain moisture.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, you can think of it as we give you a huge dose of that building block, and then we give you very potent adaptogenic anti-inflammatory.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you drink it once a day.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, basically, there's a scoop, you dissolve it in ounces of water, which is also good because it forces you to kind of drink something first thing in the morning.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we've made it taste like raspberry lemonade so that, you know, even my 14-year-old son doesn't realize that it's a skin supplement.
• 41:02
  unknown: I love that.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's good though.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, healthy habits start early.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if it tastes gross, no one's gonna want to use it.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like medicine doesn't have to taste bad, right?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, and you know, that's actually a really important point.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of supplements that are just really just yucky out there.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I can't eat them.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I are taller.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or the capsules are huge, and then you're like mentally bracing yourself or okay, I'm gonna swallow it.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like my esophagus is getting like blocked at this point, you know.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, it's it's really a problem, like horse pills kind of thing.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it that's interesting to me.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I love what you like, how you went into depth with um how much you've used in the dosing, you know, in the dosing of everything, because I think with supplements, that's kind of the slippery slope for me personally, is I never know how much to what is in what, you know, and I think that's really important and what makes I think you guys stand out so much, you know, even as a brand in general.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know um, you know, there's a lot of people that are just now getting on board with it, but I think to understand your supplements and to understand why the things in there are in there, because you know, a lot of times you'll buy something that says, oh, this is vitamin B support, you know what I mean?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then you'll look at the label and you see a million ingredients in there and you're like, why is this?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: What is this and why is it in here?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: kind of thing, you know.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that transparency is absolutely a must.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I like that you went into that and really.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, Ect, I mean, the supplement, you know, a 30-day supply is$95.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not because we want to rip people off.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's just if you're actually buying certified, you know, pharmaceutical grade ingredients and you're putting in four grams and then two grams of this matico, um, which is not um, you know, it's been purified and phenolically enhanced.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a real chemical process behind that.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, those ingredients are expensive.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, really expensive.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not, we're actually, you know, not intending to sell this through stores, just really through professional channels and our website, because to be honest, we can't afford with the margin that of what this costs to put this through a Sephora channel, for example.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like we just can't, you know, afford to give them 75% of our margin.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'd make no money.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: That would basically mean that we make absolutely no money.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd rather put in super high quality supplements through professional channels and through our website than say, oh, here's, you know, here's something and it's 40 bucks and it costs, you know, two bucks and it's garbage.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm actually glad you're not doing that because the idea really is to reach the conscious consumer, I think, at this point.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think we as consumers have a responsibility to understand why we need what we need.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, if you really want to help your skin, and this for all the listeners out there, you know, you really do want that product that's going to work.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: You have to invest the time to understand the science of it, you know, and to really understand why it works the way it does.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where this really comes in is that, you know, it's not always good to just walk into a GNC or to walk into a Sephora or wherever it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: might be for you, you know, and just say, well, because it's sold in this retail store, I can trust it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, you have to do the you have to do the homework.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: You have to understand what, you know, so yeah, I I think it's and it's still less than a cup of car Starbucks coffee.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well there you go.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well there you go.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I know the Starbucks lines are not getting any you know smaller because I go every morning and it's terrible.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you know I if you're spending eight dollars on a cup of coffee you could definitely afford to better your overall health.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I also I think three dollars a day on your skin and your chronic inflammation exactly.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly no it's it's it's I feel like it's common sense but you know I think that the more and more we educate the more people are going to get on board.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know I think that's that's the key and I'm glad that you guys are starting off with the website and keeping it in a place where you can see who's coming you know what I mean like what kind of consumers are interested because that's another thing I've noticed you know even with our podcast there's there's a level of different types of consumerism at this point.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know it's like conscious consumerism um blind consumerism obviously and then there's an in-between you know and so I think more and more people are going towards that you know the first part where they're trying to learn more.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I like that you're making it available the way you are and I'm I'm excited for that you know and we're starting clinical trials to look at its effect on things like rosacea on things like psoriasis you know things where there is a measurable degree of inflammation.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love that I love that and you know that's actually a really great point and just a reminder for everybody that if you do have a skin condition, you should probably approach it from the mindset that Dr.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Paul just has shared with us here today, which is inflammation, understanding what that really means, you know, because I think once you understand that you start to understand your body better and better.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just skin you know like I said this earlier it's not just about your skin it's about your overall body you know and I think the the cool thing about supplements too Barbara is that your supplement yes it's meant for skin health but I mean you know it's going to benefit the rest of the meant for gut inflammation right because usually like we talked about last time leaky gut gut inflammation is tied to skin conditions.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: So the skin is just the mirror of what's happening inside your digestive system and that and your bloodstream.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly no I'm really yeah exactly that's exactly what I meant.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also you know people are even bringing in the brain at this point you know the gut brain skin barrier and it's like you know I see studies all the time where people are talking about how vitamin B is helping with brain tumors and stuff.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like these kind of things are all tied together.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's better to invest in your health than to just not you know and just wait for things to go bad because they will you know and the last unfortunately the skin is in terms of like from what I've experienced and correct me if I'm wrong it is the first to show signs but it's also the last to to show signs of some chronic it's the first to show signs for example of hormonal imbalance but with inflammation it's usually it goes from looking fine to disaster.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly exactly so you know I I want to actually round out the episode and I want to ask you no when we're choosing products you know you had mentioned the three step you know approach and I love that I love that you brought it down to that when we're choosing those products right um what what is it that we need to know you know how to choose those products and what what should we be knowing and approaching it with what kind of knowledge to pick those products out.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked obviously about the inky list and about the pH of the product so definitely inquire about the pH of the product definitely inquire with the brand about you know has it been microbiome tested and microbiome certified by which certification body there's a couple out there now um and then obviously from the inky list you can basically tell what the emollient is what the humectin is is there an antioxidant how powerful is the antioxidant you know be careful with vitamin C because just because there's vitamin C in there doesn't mean it's actually active vitamin C because it can react with the formulation and there can be actually very little antioxidant left.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then I would say you know ideally if the company has done testing there are scientific testing methodologies that are recognized by dermatologists to validate not just the ingredients but how the formulation itself because the potency of these ingredients and their function can change you know can either be synergistic or counter synergistic.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so you know ask if they've done any clinical testing or efficacy testing on actual human skin with the product.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so the best measurement is transepidermal water loss like basically do they have a transepidermal water loss measurement that's a standard in the industry you know or have they looked at how you know it helps the skin barrier become more compact and that's called desquamation.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Desquamation is that flakiness that shedding you know so does it help it become you know is there a reduction in the desquamation um you know is there redensification for an antioxidant serum for example so ask them for data because ultimately that means they actually know what they're doing.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah 100% oh I I love that I love that so really go to the science.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly and go to the measurement go to the data and then you can you know compare products saying okay this one you know improves my transepidermal water loss by 44%.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: This one is only 19% you know how bad is my skin which one do I need then you can price compare you know and um obviously you know if the pH is right and the microbiome seal is there then you know okay you know apples and apples and you know now I'm comparing my yellow apple to my red apple.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes exactly I I agree and I think that's a I think that's a great approach and I think um for everyone listening you know um I think if you do approach it from that it's kind of like a you know foolproof method in my opinion because you're gonna be only using products that have been tested they've been trying you know just actually gone through scientific trials.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's very very important especially now you know don't get me wrong there's a lot of products out there a lot of brands out there I get it you know it's hard to sift through it but you know science doesn't fail you you know that's facts that's observable fact and if you can rely on that that's the best way to go especially if you have skin that is already going through something like acne, rosaceo psoriasis, you know, like Barbara you had mentioned earlier, you know you guys are testing your product for those things.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean that's huge, you know, because right now what we're seeing and we've known for many years, I mean I think a lot of us know this is that women are more susceptible to things like you know autoimmune disorders.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well we're also more susceptible to inflammatory conditions.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know so it's like knowing these facts and knowing that you know and approaching your health with this understanding I think it automatically takes you to the science.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a really great reminder, you know what you said Barbara about everything that you've mentioned here today.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I I completely agree and and thank you you know for the great explanations.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're wonderful.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll just leave you with the thought act that's basically if you don't measure it you don't know.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know do you really care?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah that's very true that's very true.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the essence of science really I I agree.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I think we all have to ask ourselves that you know it's like we ask we have to ask ourselves what are we doing and why are we doing it and you know why are we buying what we're buying is the real question.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly but thank you so much and this has been wonderful and I I can't wait for the other episodes I hope you guys out there listening are loving the master class so far with um with codex I mean we have a lot more great episodes coming up so stay tuned and if you have any questions at all if there's any feedback any you know whatever it may be please don't hesitate to reach out to me to our team we will pass along your questions to Dr.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Paladis' team and we'll get you some answers from codecs themselves so um no you know don't hesitate is the is the idea here but thank you so much Barbara this has been so lovely thank you so much Ecta Hey guys so I hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform we are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 52:26
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• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a blog on Medium so if you're a reader and you love medium blogs check us out on Medium.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more we go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: So check us out leave us a comment leave us a review and we'll be back next time with another episode thank you