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Am I Doing Enough? The Mental Load of Raising a Bilingual Child, with Mimi · Dam Parenting

0:03
Hey, hey, you know what you tuned into exactly?
0:07
Damn parenting your English speaking parenting podcast from
0:11
Amsterdam. And this is a special episode
0:14
because we are bringing back one of the most listened to episode,
0:19
which is episode 33, The Identity Shift in motherhood
0:23
with Doctor Naomi because we are on a little summer break.
0:27
So we thought let's see what of our episodes are the most
0:31
listened to, most downloaded, most talked about episode.
0:35
And this episode 33 was definitely one of them.
0:39
We are addressing the topic of shifting into motherhood and the
0:44
transitions that it comes with, the complexities, exploring the
0:48
emotional, psychological and relational changes that parents
0:52
experience. And we have brought Doctor Naomi
0:55
Gibson to the table to tackle this topic with us.
0:58
I hope when you re listen to this episode, it resonates with
1:01
you or if this is the first time listening to this episode that
1:04
you get a wealth of information out of this.
1:07
Know that you're not alone on this journey.
1:09
And if you're interested in diving deeper into the whole
1:13
transition, what it really means to going into motherhood and
1:16
undergoing the process of matrescence, then we have a
1:19
special goodie for you. Because in September, this will
1:22
be the topic that we will be hovering from a 360 angle like
1:26
you're used to on this podcast. When we take on a topic, we
1:29
really want to shine a light on all the different aspects.
1:32
So the month of September will be where we will talking about
1:36
matrescence in all its different layers, in all its different
1:40
dates. So this might be a good episode
1:42
to start with. Episode 33, recycling it for
1:45
you, bringing it back into your ears.
1:47
Identity shift in parents with Doctor Naomi Gibson.
1:50
And we hope you enjoy this episode listening to it again.
1:54
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2:32
Hi and welcome back to another episode of Damn Parenting, your
2:35
English speaking parenting podcast from Amsterdam, The
2:37
Netherlands. As always, we are your host Eva
2:39
and and today we're welcoming back our famous resident
2:43
psychologist, Dr. Naomi. Hello.
2:46
Hi. Today we're actually going to be
2:48
talking about identity, an identity shift in motherhood.
2:52
And personally, I'm going to kick this one off.
2:54
I definitely lost my identity once I have my child.
2:57
Now, obviously it was also COVID, so we all kind of were
3:00
very much beside ourselves kind of trying to figure out our own
3:04
place and what was going to happen in our world.
3:06
And we're bringing a new life. So we're all a bit unaware or
3:09
unsure of what's going to happen, but I know I definitely
3:12
gave up absolutely everything of who I was to raise a baby in
3:16
COVID and going through the struggles of breastfeeding,
3:20
going through the struggles of being in a building renovation,
3:22
going through the struggles of not seen family for a year.
3:24
It was quite a lot. And so since then, I've known
3:27
Marin since we were actually pregnant.
3:29
And Marin's someone who I always could rely on to be in contact
3:33
with me and also kind of be, she was having a life.
3:36
She was able to leave the house and she was like, come on, we're
3:38
going to do this, We're going to get Gelato from Assimo again,
3:41
come on. And that was not something that
3:43
was very easy for me. And I completely lost myself
3:45
basically having given birth and going through the struggles.
3:49
So that's 3 1/2 years ago. And I'm not going to lie, like
3:53
I'm still trying to figure it. I'm still trying to claim, I'm
3:56
still trying to find a title, maybe, I don't know.
3:59
So today, Doctor Naomi hopefully is going to give us another free
4:02
therapy session and help us look at this identity in motherhood
4:06
loss or finding or sourcing, however that's going to be.
4:10
How are we going to kick this off?
4:12
What's the first question we should be asking?
4:13
Well, I think we will want to dive in before we talk about
4:17
identity. I think we need to a little
4:19
bounded in what is identity even form a psychological concept and
4:24
why is it so important for us humans or mothers we get a
4:28
little closer to the circle? Why is this such a big question
4:31
within us and why are we trying to search for this identity so
4:35
much? So I guess this is a good
4:37
starting point to talk about what is identity and why does it
4:41
impact us so much? Yeah, well, everyone has an
4:44
identity. It's sort of a perhaps you could
4:47
say a distinctive set of qualities or traits or, you
4:51
know, maybe akin to your personality, the the things that
4:54
make you you as part of your identity.
4:56
And I think when we're talking about identity, we're thinking
4:59
about the sort of continuity of things, you know, the sort of
5:02
yourself hood that maybe your, you know, your context can
5:05
change, your country can change, you're becoming a parent can
5:09
change, but they're sort of a unis.
5:11
That's what we're talking about with with identity.
5:14
And then that's also quite intrinsically linked to self
5:17
esteem, sort of the way you feel about yourself and the kind of
5:21
self sort of knowing and confidence that comes with that.
5:24
And all of those things are like put inside a snow globe and
5:28
shaken up when you become a parent because there's this
5:31
context change, body change everything.
5:33
And that's why I think there's such a big kind of identity
5:36
shift in in motherhood and parenthood.
5:38
I know we're going to come from a sort of motherhood perspective
5:41
today, being three mothers and but yeah, it's definitely
5:44
something that both parents experience that identity shift.
5:47
What I find so hard with this finding this new identity and
5:52
getting into this new role is, and we've talked about this in
5:55
previous episodes, that the child constantly changes.
5:58
So everything constantly changes.
6:00
So it's not like something where OK, this is the end that I'm
6:05
working towards and if I've reached that then I can get
6:07
comfortably and I can keep working with this.
6:09
But it's this constant change of I have to adapt, I have to
6:14
reassess, I have to re order I So this is the, I think the hard
6:20
part about this whole growing into this role and growing into
6:23
this identity, developing this flexibility of the mind of like,
6:28
OK, this is how it work now for six months.
6:30
And now I'm comfortably, but oops, everything's going to be
6:33
upside down again. So I need to reassess, I need to
6:36
rechange. And I think this is the big
6:38
thing, but I struggle so much with that.
6:41
There is continuity, but also so much flexibility and change the
6:46
whole time. So you constantly evolving,
6:48
evolving in this whole, yeah, trying to find yourself and
6:52
trying to land your principles. I guess you can only establish
6:56
some somewhat like basis boundaries or basic things that
7:01
keep you going. But the all the the things
7:04
around constantly change and that makes it so hard for me at
7:07
least. Yeah.
7:08
And a concept that we talk about a lot in, in therapy is about
7:11
sort of your values that Eunice that things, you know, the
7:15
reason, your reason for doing the things that the way you do.
7:18
And those things are pretty continuous.
7:20
It's like a sort of compass point in the direction that
7:23
you're, you're travelling. And there might be different
7:25
sort of goals along the way or different sort of things that
7:27
kind of hinder your, your progress on that travel or help
7:31
you along. But it's sort of that's the
7:32
direction you're going. So I often encourage people to
7:35
think about, you know, what, what is important to you?
7:38
What's your value? Do you have a value of being
7:40
perhaps fun? Do you have a value of kindness?
7:43
Do you have a value of adventure, spontaneity, whatever
7:47
it is? And then your sort of your
7:49
identity often really sort of works alongside that to make
7:52
those things true, even if your context and the situation you're
7:56
in is not quite compatible at that moment.
7:59
Is there a piece of paper with this that we can actually look
8:01
at now and tick off and kind of calculate this?
8:04
Do you have a recommendation? In terms of values, yeah, I
8:08
could find a link, but yeah, there's loads.
8:09
There's the the theory it comes out of is acceptance and
8:12
commitment therapy. And it's sort of is the idea
8:14
that these values are so core to what we do.
8:17
And there's sort of an exercise I do with clients sometimes of
8:20
going through all of the values as they that's a known of about
8:23
sort of maybe 50 or so and sort of people know immediately which
8:27
values they have. It's not something you have to
8:29
think about at all. It's like, Oh yeah, kindness.
8:32
That's for me. Oh, generosity.
8:33
Yeah. Fun.
8:34
You know, whatever it is, it's sort of a very core knowing that
8:38
you know what you're, what you believe in, what you stand for,
8:40
what you, what matters to you. So that link will be in our show
8:43
notes, yeah. Look.
8:46
Can we ask how does the process of becoming a mother typically
8:48
impact a woman's sense of identity and self concept?
8:52
I mean, massively what you were saying before, Eva, you know,
8:55
you're having to work out a yourself in this new role,
8:59
having to look after somebody who, you know, they're there all
9:01
the time, needing something from you.
9:03
So there's the sort of physical and emotional demands of that.
9:06
That changes everything. Have you guys heard of a
9:09
matrescence as a phrase? Yep.
9:12
I think have we spoken about it on this before?
9:15
No. Not sure.
9:16
It's such a big topic that we're like, yes, this is this big
9:19
topic, and at one point we'll address, but yeah.
9:22
Maybe we can lightly address. It.
9:24
Now it's basically the acknowledgement through research
9:27
and like a growing movement in in sort of social sciences
9:31
really, of acknowledging that going from being a non mother to
9:36
a mother has massive emotional, psychological, physical and
9:41
brain changes as well as cultural shifts and group
9:45
belonging stuff. And that's change is called
9:48
matrescence. And it's sort of akin to
9:51
adolescence in that there's a period of time where all of
9:54
these changes take place. That's also comes along with a
9:57
kind of a sort of discomfort and awkwardness.
10:00
I mean, if you remember being, I don't know, a 14 year old in
10:03
social situations, it's just, it's almost painful to look back
10:06
on sometimes the kind of awkwardness that you might have
10:08
felt or sort of not knowing your identity in that sense.
10:12
And I don't think I've met a mother yet who hasn't
10:15
experienced that sort of who am I?
10:17
What does this even mean to be your mum?
10:19
My body's changed. I'm having to perhaps feed
10:22
somebody from my body and all of these sort of things, as well as
10:26
the kind of massive cultural expectations and the load on on
10:29
mothers to be perhaps a certain way, or at least we might
10:32
perceive to behave a certain way.
10:34
And that whole journey change is has got a name.
10:38
It's my trescence. And I, for one, found it very
10:41
reassuring hearing about that and learning about it just being
10:44
like, Ah, OK, I'm not I'm not mad.
10:47
There's this is a thing I'm supposed to feel so I'm
10:49
comfortable. I'm supposed to question my
10:51
identity. It's it's.
10:54
And even as mothers, yeah, even as mothers, we're going to go
10:56
through the spots, the hair loss and everything else.
10:59
It's just a different format. Instead of just the teenage
11:01
pirate, Unfortunately, we go through a very, very different
11:04
aspect, I guess, of it. Yeah.
11:05
Because that was that came out, I think it was the 60s or 70s
11:08
was actually when I was first formalized.
11:09
And it's only really in the last, it looks like five years
11:12
or even not even 10 years that it's actually really started
11:16
coming in. And I've noticed it's only in
11:18
social media maybe probably in the last two years.
11:20
I think I've noticed the word comes up here or there.
11:23
Yeah. Which I think speaks to a sort
11:25
of woeful lack of energy in sort of women's studies, women
11:31
issues, all of that. You know, the research, this, it
11:34
was sort of coined by anthropologist in the 70s, Dana
11:37
Raphael. And she, yeah, she sort of found
11:40
this phrase, saw that it was happy happening, but then didn't
11:43
get the kind of impetus from, you know, academic institutions
11:46
where research takes place to kind of bring it forward.
11:49
And you're right, it's only in a sort of the last five or so
11:52
years, it's becoming part of a more common day sort of parlance
11:55
around identity and motherhood. It's unfortunate that some
11:59
research projects, when you have two letters, additional letters
12:03
in a project, unfortunately it doesn't get funding.
12:05
And those two letters usually are the West and O in front of
12:08
the men. And once you have those two
12:10
letters, you're not going to get any funding, apparently.
12:13
Yeah. Well, hopefully that's a shift,
12:16
but yeah, historically that has absolutely the case because the
12:19
most of the universities, you know, looking back in the 70s,
12:21
eighteen 90s that were run by men, these institutions were it
12:25
wasn't deemed so crucial to look at these things so.
12:29
Hopefully that's shifting just half the population.
12:31
Is there then research about fathers?
12:34
Is there such thing? Because I'm no, of course.
12:38
No. What your fathers don't go
12:41
through this process or what don't?
12:43
Forget, Mary. Like when we had a chat a while
12:45
ago, you were actually even questioning if men had guilt
12:47
because you were kind of like, no, they just get up, they go to
12:49
work. Like, I mean, that's how society
12:52
in general has placed it, I guess, on us.
12:54
So why would they research men when they're like, no, no, no,
12:56
no, no, this should not affect you.
12:57
You you get back to work. One thing that just really
13:00
helped me and understanding this whole process was your analogy
13:04
with the adolescence and thinking back how we grow and we
13:09
have these, you know, seven years of growing into this
13:12
adult. And that makes so much sense
13:15
when we now put it on this motherhood journey that and I
13:18
remember, yeah, like feeling a teenager, you figure out the
13:21
world, you test your boundaries. And that's exactly what you do
13:24
when you're a mother. You test, OK, how far can I push
13:27
it? How how far can I push my own
13:30
boundaries or how flexible can I be?
13:33
And we also do irrational things sometimes, like teenagers, like,
13:36
OK, this needs to happen now. So yeah, that's that's very
13:39
interesting and makes it a little more.
13:42
Yeah, understandable for for me, what's what's happening because
13:45
in this, this feeling I can tap back into and be like, ah, yeah,
13:49
I remember this. I also remember this in my
13:51
motherhood journey where I felt, so where am I?
13:54
Where's my sense of belonging? What am I supposed to do?
13:57
And also this whole rebellion at that kicks in at one point when
14:00
you towards your own parents also when they come up and no,
14:04
this is how I'm going to parent. This is not how I'm going to
14:06
raise my same conversation, just with different topics.
14:11
That's a good comparison that we have gone through this and now
14:15
it's this other other layer and this other human being that we
14:18
have to deal. With it's a real evolution and I
14:20
find it so so normalising of the the challenges that I see it,
14:25
you know, I see it in the women I work with in one to one
14:28
therapy and group therapy of just this sort of who am I
14:31
moment that comes in motherhood and just, you know, how can we
14:36
be really compassionate to ourselves?
14:37
This is you wouldn't look back on your 14 year old self and say
14:41
like, oh, what is she doing? She's making so many mistakes.
14:43
You would be sort of perhaps a bit kind of kinder and say she
14:46
was learning and growing and evolving.
14:48
And the same is true in in motherhood.
14:50
You're learning with your child or children how to be this new
14:54
version of your. Yourself, something you just
14:57
brought up there, Myron, was well, two things.
14:59
One, you were talking about, you know, oh, going through all
15:02
this, it actually made me realise mom rage is the same as
15:06
our teenager age then. And mom rage is something that
15:09
is so like push below. No one wants to admit it.
15:12
It's a very shameful thing that we go through.
15:15
But again, it's like being a teenager and you have this rage
15:17
and you can control it, but it's like, oh, you're a teenager,
15:20
We'll excuse that. But as a mom, it's a shame
15:22
instead of an excuse now. And also, now that I think about
15:26
this rage especially and going back to teenagers, teenagers,
15:29
hormones are all over the place, and that's the same for us.
15:33
Oh my God, thank you for bringing this whole thing up.
15:37
Yeah, Tina made so much sense to me now.
15:39
Like thinking back, like, yes, I was especially when you're
15:42
breastfeeding and you're just giving birth, like the whole
15:44
hormonal shift that comes with it.
15:46
And I remember this rage. And I've said this in also
15:49
previous episode that I was sitting there like, what, what
15:52
is this? Why am I so filled with rage and
15:55
uncontrolled emotions? And then I bought this online
15:59
course mom rage. I never actually then got to it,
16:02
but I yeah, I remember this this topic and and also it did feel a
16:07
little familiar. Now I know from where.
16:10
And yeah, funnier. And often rage and anger
16:15
generally comes from a sort of unmet need or a sense of
16:18
powerlessness. And that is absolutely a
16:20
teenager, you know, if you want to go out or you don't really
16:22
have power. And a toddler indeed.
16:24
And also a, a mother, a parent where, you know, you might want
16:28
to get some space, you might want to, you know, even this
16:31
morning I was trying to set up this podcast equipment.
16:33
I've got my little 2 1/2 year old, you know, grabbing onto my
16:36
leg, chasing me. It felt like I couldn't get any
16:38
space. And I felt so furious.
16:40
And it's just that sense of powerlessness that I need to do
16:43
something. I can't do something because of
16:44
my new role, this new identity as a mother.
16:47
And all of these things kind of clash and collide.
16:51
And I think that's. Yeah, I think it's a sense of
16:54
powerlessness often that comes, I think.
16:57
Sad part is that back then you could scream at your parents.
17:02
You could scream at your pregnant parents, you just have
17:04
to bring them up and just be like.
17:07
I guess your your partner becomes your parrot figures and
17:11
I. Guess the the other thing is
17:15
when you don't have mom rage, I guess it is there could also be
17:18
the shutdown experience, which is something that I tend to
17:20
experience as well, which is when exactly like you were
17:23
mentioning, you know me, it's like you're trying to do
17:25
something and then your child's there.
17:27
And obviously you're not going to be, I don't know, some animal
17:30
in the wild where you're like, kick them off and just keep
17:32
walking off kind of thing. But we'll stop, we'll turn
17:35
around. We'll you know, we're there for
17:36
a child. I know my husband has definitely
17:38
said to me is like, you just shut down then and give
17:40
everything to your child. Like you don't think about what
17:43
needs to be done. You know, your normal life, you
17:45
know, if you need to have a shower, if you need to get food,
17:48
you just stop everything you do and you turn to the child and
17:52
then that's it. And it's like, yeah, that was
17:54
the thing for me. It was about the loss of
17:56
identity was a case of it's like, I get furious, but I don't
18:00
get furious. I get shut down because I don't
18:02
deal with those emotions. They don't process and they just
18:04
kind of everything just shuts down and I'm just like, OK, I
18:07
don't know what that word is, but.
18:09
It feels helpless, perhaps this sort of, well, there's no point,
18:13
so I can't carry on with what I need to do.
18:15
I'm just helpless to this situation.
18:16
Perhaps that would be my interpretation.
18:19
Well, it's not really a helpless thing.
18:21
It's actually, it's the way I actually deal with any tantrums
18:23
with my child, as well as the fact that I just shut down and I
18:26
become like empty. So The thing is, I try to then
18:29
regulate the emotion of whatever's happening so they
18:31
can't feed off my energy because they can't sense my energy.
18:34
So I just shut everything down. And that's kind of what happens.
18:38
And I don't know what it is, but it's just a case of any time
18:40
they're like, oh, I need your attention.
18:42
Everything just stops and I turn around.
18:44
So when I hear about mom rage, I've only, and I could probably
18:48
count it on my hands and still have some fingers leftover.
18:50
Ever experience that? But on this side, it's not the
18:53
mom rage, it's the total shutdown, Yeah, that I
18:56
experienced daily. And that psychologically, we
18:59
would say that's the difference between hyper and hypo arousal.
19:02
Hyper being like more of an active event, like a screaming,
19:06
losing a temper, slamming something sort of active.
19:09
And the hypo being more perhaps passive and shut down.
19:11
And just like, I can't deal with this, I'm going to just perhaps
19:15
you internalize the, the feeling or walk away or something.
19:19
That's sort of the arousal so-called in psychological
19:22
terms, is is different. It's it can come from exactly
19:24
the same situation in a different context, where
19:26
different people are sort of more inclined to one way or the
19:29
other. Yeah.
19:30
And it always stands from people's own background,
19:32
personal experiences on this day that they've had every variable.
19:35
Yeah. So you were talking there about
19:37
like you actually deal with this a lot with your own mom's, with
19:40
your own clients, as well as our international families are here.
19:44
As you were talking about living in a different country, a
19:46
different city, with a different language, with different
19:48
everything really. We're in a different society
19:51
essentially. And we're making our own
19:53
villages here, our own community.
19:55
We're all part of something different.
19:56
How does societal expectations and these cultural norms, and
20:01
we're not in a cultural norm because we're now trying to
20:03
formulate our own within our own community here.
20:06
How can we then contribute to the identity shift that new moms
20:10
are going to go through? I think it just makes it a whole
20:13
lot complicated, as with every subject that we've covered on
20:16
here, there's just the added layer of living in a culture
20:19
that's not your own or being in this sort of its own kind of
20:23
international culture sometimes. And yeah, there'll be perhaps
20:27
different cultural norms of around the sort of expectations
20:31
of motherhood, around what you do or don't do, working, not
20:34
working types of food to give kind of concrete examples.
20:38
But also, yeah, perhaps, you know, perhaps you've got a
20:41
partner that's from a different country and culture as well, and
20:45
then you're both living in a different place.
20:46
Basically. It's just a massive clash and
20:50
complicated thing to understand. And I think that's why it's
20:53
quite important to come back to this sort of consistency, this
20:56
these values perhaps, or however you want to think about it.
20:59
What, what's the Eunice that's going to help you through this
21:02
evolution, this matrescence? What do you value in a family,
21:06
in yourself? Like what's kind of what's going
21:09
to stay mostly consistent even while everything is is changing?
21:13
I'm just thinking is one of those things, we're going to
21:15
print up this value sheet and we're going to have a beside the
21:18
mirror. And that was something we have
21:20
to look at every single day to remind ourselves.
21:22
No, not in fact, because you know them already, right?
21:25
They're, they're, they're yourself Ness, you.
21:29
Yeah. It would take a minute for me to
21:31
work out perhaps what your, what your values are.
21:33
Because you, you already know them.
21:34
They're they're, they're you're true, true to you.
21:36
It might just be that the things in your in your context at the
21:40
moment are not. You're not able to sort of live
21:42
fully to that value, but it's you don't need reminding.
21:45
Maybe we just need the words. Yeah, perhaps.
21:48
Yeah. So that would kind of be more of
21:50
a like a framework that we can work with that you're going to
21:52
give us this link that we can actually link to and we're going
21:55
to check out all these different values.
21:56
And that's going to kind of hopefully help support some of
21:59
us listeners to kind of be like, OK, this is this is my value.
22:03
Maybe it's shifted since prior to having a child.
22:06
Now it's this way. And it's always good to kind of
22:08
realign and check in. So that's essentially your new
22:12
identity. Yeah, I don't know.
22:15
Is it your new identity? I think it's just the
22:17
acknowledgement that the identity can shift and change
22:21
and, you know, you might belong to different groups or, you
22:25
know, have different beliefs since becoming a parent and, you
22:29
know, be part of this international community,
22:30
whatever. And all of those things
22:32
contribute to your identity. And all of those things are
22:35
influx in motherhood or becoming a mother.
22:38
So to just kind of to be accepting that identity is a
22:41
changing thing. Just like everything else of
22:43
motherhood, right? Changing diapers.
22:46
Changing tantrums. I mean, for me a big part of my
22:50
identity is that shift is I feel quite kind of radicalised.
22:53
I don't know whether that's the word radicalised or galvanised
22:56
by my experience of motherhood in that I think I would have in
23:01
my in my 20s or whatever, looked at care work and looked at
23:04
motherhood as being easy. I think I really had this, this
23:08
thought that, you know, that was the easy way that you had this
23:11
workers and you had people at home and that was easier.
23:13
My understanding has, of course, changed so much, and I think
23:16
it's really shifted my identity into, you know, wanting support,
23:21
mothers in the work that I do, feeling really passionate about,
23:24
you know, equality in the workplace and in all of these
23:27
things around family life. And it's sort of, yeah, it's
23:30
kind of energized and radicalized that part of my
23:33
identity, kind of given it some from purpose.
23:36
I don't know whether you've had a similar experience.
23:38
What I had was a very harsh waking up to when I didn't have
23:43
a child yet. I was dreaming of this.
23:45
Oh, I, I always had this mother identity in me and I thought,
23:50
OK, if I have a child that I can fully live this and I can
23:54
totally indulge in and I will love doing all of that.
23:57
And then I was becoming a mother and I'm still am now.
24:02
I know becoming a mother or shifting my identity within
24:05
that. And I noticed that what I
24:08
thought will fulfill me and will mean will make me so happy
24:12
actually didn't. And then I was lost.
24:14
I was like, well, now I am a mother, but why am I not happily
24:17
over the moon? Why am I not enjoying this so
24:20
much? Why can I not find my
24:22
fulfillment in this care work and then all that.
24:25
And when I was working, paid work, I thought, I can't wait to
24:30
not do this anymore. And then when I didn't do it, I
24:34
was like, it's to do it again. Because this actually, then
24:38
looking back, I saw that I really needed this for my, yeah,
24:41
for my personal identity that I still need.
24:44
And I still want this outside validation that you have in the
24:48
outside of home workplace. And you get all these
24:51
recognition of your talent. You get the, you can grow and
24:54
you have all this stuff that you have in a paid work environment.
24:58
And I was very surprised to, to find that out about myself.
25:02
And then it was a big shift to, in order for myself to be happy
25:06
and to be sane, I need to go back into this environment.
25:10
And I have luckily found a way where I can do do what I love to
25:13
do and I can combine all my qualities within that workplace
25:18
now. But that was a harsh realization
25:20
because I was really trying to make it work and try to talk to
25:24
myself. Like, well, now you have
25:25
everything you wanted and now you have what you dreamed of and
25:28
now you have everything that you picture that you want to.
25:31
And then I was sitting there and asking, why can I not enjoy it?
25:35
Why am I not happy with it? And this is was like the harsh
25:38
reality of, yes, I am a mother and I am also comma everything
25:43
else and how can I fit this within the mother identity now?
25:47
And that was really a a big waking up for me.
25:50
Yeah, I'm certain so many people can relate to that as well.
25:54
The sort of want for something or the idea that you could pin
25:57
your identity on this, this something and then it feels, you
26:00
know, not satisfying in the way you expected or not actually, or
26:03
that perhaps you were sort of speaking about that identity is
26:05
made-up of so many things that if we just put it into one pot
26:08
in the same way, actually just put your identity into the work
26:11
pot. I'm sure we've all known people
26:12
that are like, I'm a lawyer and that's all I do and I work 80
26:15
hours a week and that's my identity was that's not flexibly
26:18
psychologically healthy either. You know, in the same way as if
26:21
you were only only in your motherhood identity and didn't
26:24
also enjoy nature and sports or whatever.
26:27
It's too. It's too much pressure, perhaps.
26:30
One thing, and it also helped me so much realizing that in order
26:34
to live the picture that I had of myself as a mother from the
26:39
way that I want a parent and the way I want to be a mother needs
26:43
this other input. And I can only be the mother
26:46
that I want to be if I also have this outside identity.
26:51
And that was the big thing that I didn't realize that I need
26:55
something else to become the mother that I want to be because
26:58
I thought, well, I'm just going to be the mother that I want to
27:00
be, right? I'm just going to do it.
27:03
But I didn't notice what goes into this recipe to actually
27:08
being the person that I want to be.
27:10
And that was a big, big yeah realization that I had that
27:14
mother. You, you just don't become the
27:16
mother that you want to be. But what makes it that you can
27:20
live this true identity? And now I know I am happy
27:24
working outside the home. I am happy being in this other
27:27
professional environment. And that makes me then the
27:31
mother that I want to be. Yeah, I think that's the
27:34
matricence, isn't it? That's the evolution, that's the
27:36
working out. That's the trial and error.
27:39
And that's also when we spin it back now to the adolescence
27:42
part, that also as a teenager, you think I want to be working
27:45
in this profession. And you and then you realize,
27:48
well, actually, no, this is not how I want.
27:50
Oh. And then you are in this
27:52
profession. You're like, oh, I don't know
27:54
that it's going to be like this, but then I'll just change.
27:57
Yeah. You can't just change your child
28:00
or you can't just change being a parent, but yeah.
28:02
And you can't just walk away from that job.
28:05
But now you the realization of, oh, this isn't how I thought
28:09
it's going to be. And then you need to change the
28:11
parameters. Can I ask, are there any
28:14
specific challenges or conflicts that arise between like a mom,
28:18
the pre-existing identity to the new identity as a mother?
28:21
Is there any titles as such that a psychologist will be able to
28:25
say this is typical? Like Myron was saying, it's a
28:27
case of, oh, I'm such a nurturing mother.
28:30
You know, this is exactly what I'm meant to do.
28:32
And then it's a case of you become a mother and after a
28:34
while you're like, oh, damn, I need to work outside the home.
28:36
Like that's I need that. That is also my identity.
28:39
Is there many of these kind of things that kind of arise
28:42
typically in mothers? I think all of these things are
28:45
typical and common. I don't know whether there's
28:48
particular sort of phrases or anything like that to explain
28:51
that, but I think, yeah, just an identity shift as such, like a
28:55
learning about yourself and evolution.
28:57
Yeah, perhaps there are words to put on it, but I don't know what
29:00
that would necessarily be. So if there's this evolution as
29:04
a were and shift, can we ask them what role does self-care
29:07
then play then in fulfilling the the adjustment to this new
29:11
identity? Yeah, I'd say self-care plays a
29:14
massive role. And often when I'm thinking
29:15
about self-care, I'm thinking about self compassion.
29:18
That kind of, you know, self-care is often have a bath,
29:21
put a candle on, sure, that's nice.
29:22
But self compassion is the sort of true authentic kindness to
29:26
yourself. And that is so crucial when
29:29
you're going through all of these, these shifts, this
29:31
identity shift. And to just be able to say like,
29:34
yeah, it has a word, it's my presence.
29:37
It has lots of people who can relate to it.
29:39
All mothers can relate to this, this change.
29:41
And to actually be like deeply kind to yourself when you're
29:44
struggling or when you perhaps like Marin was saying, when
29:46
you're at home with your baby, but you feel like, I feel like I
29:49
need to be at work actually. And sort of does that make me a
29:51
bad mum? No, It makes you somebody
29:53
learning about yourself in this new context.
29:56
And yeah, a sort of a deep compassion for yourself for this
30:00
change. I think it's the biggest
30:01
self-care that you can do and to talk to other people, connect
30:05
with other people. You know, that's also a big part
30:07
of identity as a sense of belonging and belonging in
30:10
groups. And I mean, that can be
30:12
literally like friends and connections you make, but it can
30:15
also be, you know, reading books that you connect to, having
30:18
Instagram accounts that are speaking to you in some way,
30:21
something that's sort of making you feel like this shift and
30:24
change is normal, needed, OK. When you talk about self
30:29
compassion, one very beautiful thing couple years ago that I've
30:32
across is that one of my mentors said, you know what, you need to
30:36
learn how to dance with your dragon instead of fighting them
30:39
all the time. So I think that it's very
30:41
beautiful when we have all these things creep up, crawl up
30:45
instead of pushing them away, like, yeah, taking them by the
30:49
hand and dancing with them and figure out the rhythm and
30:52
figuring out how can we address them and how can we see them and
30:56
pay attention to them and yeah, be self compassion to those
30:59
parts that pop up. So I thought.
31:00
And if it's a dragon, you might get burnt or hurt.
31:03
Yeah, exactly. Scared.
31:05
Yeah. And yeah, that's a really nice
31:07
analogy for it. Yeah, so I thought that was, has
31:09
given me a lot of gentleness with myself.
31:12
And yeah, like you said, compassion that I'm, they're a
31:15
part of me and I have to make them out of hand, answer them
31:19
and maybe figure out a new a new side.
31:22
And if I spin them around, I might see something that I
31:25
haven't seen before that I can then use and turn into something
31:28
that is serving me instead of pushing me down.
31:32
So I'm just reflecting now on Episode 16 when we're talking
31:35
about Festive Reflections and we're talking about going back
31:38
to our home really, or our family, and we're going to visit
31:42
them with our children. When we talk about like we're
31:45
bringing back our child, we are a parent, we've right, we're
31:47
raising them in Amsterdam or somewhere in the Netherlands,
31:50
and we're here away from home and we're raising a child.
31:52
But how do the relationships with our partners, but also
31:54
family members and our friends back home influence this
31:58
identity shift in mothers because they're not present with
32:01
us as we're going through this shift.
32:03
And then the Festive Reflections episode 16, when we go back,
32:07
it's like we're working on this identity here.
32:09
When we go back home, it's like, Oh yeah, it's like I have to
32:13
then still work on another aspect of being a mother, but in
32:17
in in my family who haven't really seen me daily raise this
32:21
child and can't identify as me as a mother.
32:24
Yeah, it's complicated, right? It's added like a whole other
32:28
layer to it. And I often see, which is so
32:30
akin to teenagers actually of when you're.
32:33
I remember getting really into a band, I really liked them and I
32:37
bought a T-shirt or one of the gigs and stuff.
32:39
And then there was a a friend who I've not seen for a while,
32:42
she was kind of a family friend. I saw her again six months later
32:45
or something. She's like you like them, you
32:46
don't like them, you like this band or something and the sort
32:49
of how a front confronting that can be to be like, do I like
32:53
them? I mean, I think I do, but she's
32:55
saying I don't. Who am I in this identity shift?
32:57
And that's something I see a lot in new mothers of the sort of
33:02
you might be kind of working out who you are in this new role and
33:04
sort of adapting to the changes. And then you get these external
33:07
people, partners, friends, family you've not seen in a
33:10
while that you can kind of hit up against that new reality.
33:14
That can be a really, really hard feeling if you're trying to
33:17
work out something in yourself where you feel vulnerable in
33:20
this new identity. So again, I think it just comes
33:22
back to a kind of a self kindness to be able to be like,
33:25
yeah, I'm evolving and changing and learning and I'm OK with
33:29
that. And you can kind of introduce
33:31
other people to that new part of you as well and change and
33:36
adapt. And yeah, that's not to say that
33:37
it might not feel strange. It definitely often times people
33:41
find this sort of becoming a parent with their own parents
33:45
such a challenging thing for their parents to see them as the
33:48
parent, not the child anymore. And we, we've spoken about this
33:51
before, but how those sort of layers of identity can get
33:54
really kind of confused and messy and chaotic.
33:57
And it's why returning to family homes, as it were, I can feel so
34:00
exhausting and confusing because of all those identities kind of
34:05
clash and come into one. Yeah, it's not easy.
34:08
One comment on this, that when you let this like when you
34:12
realize that you can't live or you don't want to live up to
34:15
your imagination of what this is going to be, that it always
34:18
feels like a failure. Oh, I thought, this is what I'm
34:20
going to be or this is what I'm how I'm going to do it.
34:23
And then like you said, reality hits and then you have to give
34:25
it up because you realize, oh, actually this totally doesn't
34:28
work. But sometimes you're so stuck
34:31
with this idea. This is how I wanted to do it.
34:33
And then it feels like giving up and failing and not being able
34:37
to fulfill this dream and idea that you had without all the
34:41
factors in play. And especially also when we go
34:43
then back to our parents, when I know that before I said, oh,
34:49
this is how I'm going to do it. This is how I'm going to do it.
34:51
And then my mother is like, oh, I thought this is where you're
34:55
going to do it. And then you have to defend
34:57
this. And you're like, I'm not saying
35:00
I'm just. My parenting.
35:03
I'm just realizing this doesn't work for me.
35:05
And then really standing up and not seeing as a failure but
35:09
seeing as a fluid transition and like, oh okay, well reality,
35:13
this is reality. So now I need to adapt my dream
35:15
of how I thought it's going to be.
35:18
Yeah. And that's kind of coming back
35:19
to being flexible and being kind with yourself that, yeah, it's
35:22
not a failure to change. It's a acknowledgement that you
35:25
need to change. And that's, that's OK.
35:28
I'm just in my head here thinking like the most I'm
35:31
taking out right now is the fact that we have to be constantly
35:34
flexible and evolving right now because I've, you know, when you
35:38
were saying something they're married about like, you know,
35:40
you have your ideologies and it's actually not working out
35:42
and then you go home. In my head, just personally
35:45
speaking, it's like I have these ideas of things actually do want
35:48
to do. Like I want to be going to
35:50
Amsterdam Saboss every weekend. I want my child to be out in
35:52
nature and you know, exploring the world, whatever.
35:55
Honestly, I'm tired AF. I'm not going to make it to
35:58
Amsterdam Saboss. It's too far for me to cycle.
36:01
I don't know if we're going to make it there.
36:02
If it's rainy, I get Moody. If whatever is happening and I'm
36:06
not doing what I really want to do because I'm so tired.
36:10
It's like there's so many variables that are involved.
36:13
Even trying to even get my child dressed, let alone out the door
36:16
on time, let alone what the weather is, if we're going to
36:18
see someone or not, how we're going to eat, what the day is
36:20
going to be, Even just that one thing that I'm like, that's the
36:23
kind of mom I want to be. And I'm not even reaching that.
36:26
I'm kind of like, but that's the that's what I want to be.
36:28
But then I'm not reaching it. And I'm kind of, yeah.
36:31
When you're saying about the whole flexibility and evolving,
36:34
I keep accepting it, but I keep going.
36:36
Not now, not like not right now, but like maybe later, like maybe
36:40
summer with better weather. But I think many of us kind of
36:43
feel that, you know, going to the beach.
36:46
I still have yet to bring my daughter to the beach.
36:48
And when I hear these moms going, oh sure, we just had a
36:50
great day out of the beach. I'm like, how did you get there?
36:52
Like how did you really? Get to the car, so we get.
36:56
There no, but it's like, how did you get your child there?
36:59
How did you deal with the sand? How did you deal with like all
37:01
these? Like I'm just so overwhelmed
37:03
when I hear these people telling me, oh, we did this day trip.
37:06
We did this. And I just feel so failing the
37:09
fact that I'm like, oh, but that's what I really want to do,
37:12
but I'm not making it there. And that's also a struggle I
37:15
have is like my idea that I really want to be this mom and
37:19
everyone else it feels like is doing it and I'm not.
37:21
And it's through fatigue or child or whether whatever it
37:25
might be. And that's also a struggle that
37:27
I have with trying to hit an identity.
37:29
I want to be, but I'm not reaching Naomi.
37:32
Again, Yeah. I think if we think of a value
37:35
as the compass point and then the sort of direction of, of
37:38
travel. I think what you're saying is
37:41
that there might be a value for you of being present with your
37:44
child or attentive to their needs in that moment or
37:47
whatever. And you're noticing that to do
37:49
to have that value. It's not yet going to be
37:52
possible for you to get to the beach or whatever that actually
37:55
you are living in line with your values.
37:56
Because what you're doing is staying with your child, you
37:59
know, with your energy levels, with hers and being present, if
38:03
perhaps presents being present is a value for you.
38:06
Yes. And then there'll come a time in
38:08
X amount of time where actually that presentness with your child
38:11
could take you to the beach. And that would be a nice day and
38:14
it wouldn't feel overwhelming. But it might be right now that
38:16
if you were at the beach, it was Sandy, you were overwhelmed,
38:19
then you wouldn't be able to be present with her because you
38:21
would be, don't know, worried about the travel, worried about
38:24
sand, whatever it is. Does that make sense?
38:27
And that that kind of is a kind of self compassionate way to
38:30
look at it. It'd be like, yeah, I'm
38:31
literally doing the best with the resources I have in this
38:34
moment to live true to my value of being present with my child.
38:37
Yeah, it, it's, it's just, I do feel like there's a lot of us
38:40
parents who like, especially people on Instagram and we
38:42
always go back to social media here, like with all these
38:44
filters of perfection. And it's like, you know, when
38:46
Myron's like, oh, we went to the beach or whatever, I'm really
38:49
like way what? And then this other one, oh, we
38:50
went, I'm stop. We went to Demon Park, like we
38:52
went to the bird because it's a perfect place for kids.
38:54
And I'm like, no, it's not because there's nothing else to
38:57
do that. Like I'm just so conflicted that
38:59
I'm like, what's wrong with me that I'm not able to make it
39:02
there and make the most out of it where everyone else tells me
39:04
it works for them. And I'm always kind of like,
39:07
well, I want to be an outdoorsy person.
39:09
I'm lazy as AF. But I mean, like, I, I want to
39:11
be that person. I want my child to be brought up
39:14
in nature and all the rest of it.
39:15
But oh, it's so hard. And I think it's very
39:18
interesting what Naomi said there.
39:20
And it's like that your unconscious mind is fulfilling
39:24
your value of, oh, I want to be present, but this is how it
39:27
looks for me. And your unconscious mind
39:29
already knows. Oh no, hell no.
39:31
Eva's going to be completely out of herself if we drag her to the
39:34
beach. If we make it work that she's at
39:35
the beach, we cannot live the value of being present because
39:38
everything is going to be so overwhelming that the core value
39:41
of being present with your daughter is not there anymore.
39:45
So isn't that nice that you're protecting yourself from that
39:49
harsh reality and that harsh feeling of failure that.
39:52
And this is I think the the whole thing that how can we, you
39:57
are actually living. Yeah, you value with being
39:59
present. And how does it look for you?
40:00
And it might not look for you going to Amsterdam balls, going
40:04
to the beach or doing whatever, but it might look to you.
40:07
We're going to the library. We're going, I don't know, to
40:09
the playground like. How can we, how can you live
40:12
your your value with your environment that's possible for
40:16
you where you don't have all these factors that because of
40:19
your personal setup will completely put you out of order
40:23
because it's just too much. It's just too many, yeah,
40:25
impacts or like too many noises and simulations and all of that.
40:30
So isn't that nice of your unconscious mind that it keeps
40:33
you inside to live your core value?
40:35
So I'm glad one part part of my brain's working.
40:37
Can I ask you, Naomi, as someone with two children, are there
40:41
differences in your identity shift from going from a first
40:44
time mother to someone now becoming a second time mother?
40:47
Yeah, yeah, massively. And I think that the idea is the
40:50
the matrescence happens again with another child because
40:52
you're a mother in a different way.
40:54
And that was my experience. They were completely different
40:57
babies. The second was a lot, well,
40:59
yeah, he cried a lot more, which really kind of over stimulated
41:03
me. I found that very, very
41:04
overwhelming experience. So I was a new version of myself
41:08
with two year old and a baby trying to sort of manage that
41:12
and really keeping those, you know, talking about not going to
41:14
the beach, like keeping expectations really low to sort
41:17
of manage how can I stay, how can I stay in this in this
41:20
moment with the two of them. So giving myself a lot of race
41:25
when I could and other times trying to for that.
41:27
But yeah, I think the yeah, the shift is yeah, it's definitely
41:31
there. And then the shift to now
41:33
they're both a little bit older. I mean, they're still young, but
41:36
they're not babies anymore. So that I'm now noticing a, a
41:40
different way of parenting, a different identity in motherhood
41:43
1, where I can go and work more. I could go on little weekend
41:47
trips here and there and I can find a different way of relating
41:51
to friends and stuff as well as being present with them when
41:54
when I'm with them. So yeah, I think it's a, it's a
41:56
constantly evolving thing. And you know, from where I'm
41:59
speaking to people who are grandparents as well, you know,
42:02
there's your experience of motherhood is always kind of
42:04
evolving as you're growing and changing.
42:06
And then you, perhaps your children have children and then
42:08
you. It's an almost constant
42:11
evolution, I think. I mentioned earlier there about
42:13
the social media and these filters and everything else.
42:16
Can we reflect then on like the perception of motherhood in the
42:20
media through social media or even TV shows or whatever?
42:23
How does that impact the identity shift that we
42:25
experience by mothers? Because I genuinely feel like
42:28
social media is to blame for quite a high percentage of the
42:32
mental struggles that mothers will go through because they
42:35
just see these clean houses, beige aesthetics, you know,
42:39
children with no vomit on them, that they eat their own food,
42:42
they eat everything. They're the amazing eaters and
42:44
they do sign language and they're already talking and
42:46
doing maths at the age of two. And it's just putting this
42:49
extreme pressure on us. And it's a case of, is this also
42:52
impacting us and our identification then?
42:55
Like are we trying to then add these values which are not ours
42:58
or are we downplaying the values which are ours because of this?
43:02
Yeah, I think you one will be influenced consciously or
43:06
unconsciously by expectations and they can that can be kind of
43:10
patriarchal expectations of what mothers do or don't do or
43:12
literally from seeing somebody's account on Instagram or what
43:15
they're doing. And all of these feed into A1
43:18
psychologist called it the Super mum myth, the sort of the, you
43:22
know, you have to be a certain way and have certain feelings
43:25
and, and all of that be a good mother, or at least that would
43:28
be the, the myth. All of that feeds into identity.
43:31
Because perhaps if you're not feeling that way or you are
43:33
struggling or you know, you want to return to work or whatever it
43:36
is, if you're measuring yourself up against this, this Superman
43:39
myth and you're always going to to fail.
43:41
And what I see a trend of on social media is either these, as
43:46
you were mentioning, this sort of beige perfect situations or a
43:50
sort of pendulum swing into I hate this, this is awful past
43:54
the wine kind of kind of vibe. I don't think there's enough in
43:58
the middle. I mean, but hopefully things are
43:59
sort of growing in the middle, which is just like a realistic
44:02
ambivalence sometimes about your identity shift and about
44:05
parenthood that it's like, yeah, I love it, I love my child.
44:08
This is great. Oh, hang on, this is really
44:10
hard. And just sort of that normal
44:12
nuance of it. And you know, that's because
44:14
social media and stuff doesn't like nuance so that it doesn't
44:16
like grey, it's black or white. But I think that's really
44:19
important. And I think it's really
44:20
important to be able to get that from whoever, from your friends
44:23
or sister or whoever is just kind of the Gray, to be able to
44:27
work that out as part of your identity in motherhood.
44:30
If there are any listeners out there who know any Gray
44:33
Instagram accounts, could you please drop them in our
44:35
Instagram so that we can actually browse them?
44:38
Yeah, so I think we're going to wrap it up here, but I just had
44:40
one more question about identity and our social aspect as
44:46
international families in themselves.
44:48
You know, we spoke about like joining groups or going out
44:51
having activities or something. Is there something that we, you
44:54
know, it is it's a melting pot here of cultures.
44:57
And so like sometimes it's the case, and I think we have spoken
45:00
about it before where it's a case of we mix with so many
45:02
different cultures that it puts so much pressure on us to be
45:05
like, oh, I love this about your culture and oh, I want to do
45:07
that. And then you're putting so much
45:09
pressure on yourself about this. Obviously, our world is a
45:12
rainbow. And so it's always a great thing
45:15
to expose yourself and your child as well to all these
45:17
people. But is there something that we
45:18
should be really protecting or not projecting?
45:21
But like, is there something that we can be doing with our
45:24
child to also encapsulate our own culture?
45:27
Because on raising bilingual children, Eoin was talking about
45:31
actually having playgroups of your own national language or
45:34
your mother language, as it were, so that your child can
45:36
really capsulate your culture with their language and food or
45:41
music or however it is. Is there something that we can
45:43
also do as well for our identity?
45:46
We joined someone who I don't know, I was going to say rug
45:49
making. Don't ask me why, but like you
45:51
go to a rug making class because it's like this is my value of
45:54
spending time and being creative with myself.
45:56
Myron knows I really want to do a rug making class, but it's
46:01
just the thing that it's like, is this something then that
46:03
would help us like as moms like to meet other moms with the same
46:07
value who want to make a rug or make candles or whatever it is?
46:11
Is this going to be of benefit to us and to our ID, our
46:14
identification, our title as mother or as family member?
46:19
I think you know the answer. I think it's yes.
46:21
Isn't it the you do that does make you have a sense of
46:24
belonging, to be with people who have a similar interest, similar
46:27
language, eat similar food, go to a certain place to pray.
46:31
Like all of these things make us feel like we belong.
46:34
And that sort of part of our identity is I guess what's the
46:37
word nurtured? Yeah, you kind of nurture that
46:39
side of, of things. And often, yeah, it does come in
46:42
relation to other people. And particularly thinking about
46:45
that sort of international thing.
46:47
I sort of, I've noticed an evolution in myself and my
46:49
family of being. Yeah.
46:51
Introducing sort of British Foods or like things that we
46:55
particularly like to eat or, or songs or stories or rituals and
46:58
things that when we first moved here, I think it was just such a
47:01
culture shock in a way that I was just almost not trying to be
47:05
Dutch, but sort of thinking that integration meant adopting these
47:09
Dutch things. And it does to a certain extent.
47:11
And I love to do that, but also to be able to tell and share
47:15
with my kids the the British identity that is very core to me
47:19
as well and sort of having both of those things live alongside
47:22
each other. It'll yeah, it's just, I think
47:24
trying to find those people, I think it's been the hardest
47:27
thing I think, for many of us as well.
47:30
So. OK.
47:31
Well, you know, if there's anyone out there who wants to do
47:33
some rug making and it's got some Irish kids who want to
47:36
babysit my child as well to get some Irish language into them,
47:39
you know, just get in touch. Doctor.
47:41
Naomi, thank you so much, as always, for joining us.
47:44
It's been another insightful and free therapy session for anyone
47:48
out there. Hopefully you feel you've heard
47:51
myself and Marin share her own personal experiences and also
47:53
Doctor Naomi herself as well. We're giving you an insight and
47:56
the truth and being transparent as ourselves, as mothers.
47:59
So we'll give it now to Marin to wrap up as always.
48:02
If you want to hear more from us, we are coming out every
48:04
Wednesday with an expert episode on this podcast where we invite
48:08
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48:12
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48:54
Bye.