Latest / Quick Wins for ADHD Moms - Short Episodes, Real Solutions for Burnout and Overwhelm / The ADHD Mom’s Guide to 504s, IEPs, and What to Say Next with Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer

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The ADHD Mom’s Guide to 504s, IEPs, and What to Say Next with Dr. Katrina Ostmeyer · Quick Wins for ADHD Moms - Short Episodes, Real Solutions for Burnout and Overwhelm

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to Quick Wins for ADHD moms.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Jessica Lynn Lewis.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I am so glad you're here, and I hope you're getting a lot of great information from this podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear maybe something that is challenging for you or something that you're struggling with as a mom with ADHD, trying to handle kids with ADHD.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a long list and I'm trying to work through all of that to give you more information with all of these different shows.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I welcome your feedback.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear from you, Jessica at the ADHDmom.com.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's my direct email.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have actually another episode with Dr.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Katrina Ostmeier.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: She is last week we talked about sensory overload.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And today we dive more into school advocacy.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you go when you think your child is really struggling at school?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know who to call or who to ask for help.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we dive into that today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Great conversation.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I love talking with Katrina because she's not only a doctor, she knows her stuff.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: She's a mom.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so she has to do all of this herself too.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's lived experience.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really great conversation with Katrina today.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the interview.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hey, Katrina, thank you so much for being on the show again.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: We had such a wonderful time last time talking about sensory overload.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: And this time, um, so excited to have you back on the show again today.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So what is today's quick win?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, the quick win for today is I'm going to talk about my other child, my 14-year-old son.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: We got through his AP test yesterday.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was wonderful because last night we were working on his homework and we provide some support just to help keep him on task in the afternoon when those meds have worn off.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, You know what?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just need to celebrate because I'm done with this test and I am not worried about it anymore.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's a huge win.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, what kind of things did you use for him?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when the medicines wear, we I deal with the same thing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Medicine's wearing off, the attention starts going all over, the hyperactivity impulsivity.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of things do you put in place for him?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it ebbs and flows a little bit here uh at the end of the school year.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I will be honest, he had some um choices where he may have avoided some work.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we are providing a little bit more uh support than we have in the past.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh a lot of things like environmental modifications.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: We do do have a booster that he takes in the afternoon, which is his choice to just help with some of that focus.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then at home, uh we have a rule: no headphones.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're listening to YouTube's for your classes, mom and dad can learn along with you.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we also do a few check-ins.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: So at one point it was every 15 minutes we were checking on him when he had a lot of homework when his mind would wander.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's more if you're gonna work on a TV tray, mom's got work to do.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I can look over your shoulder, just making sure you're staying on task because it's it's hard for the best of us.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and then we take the phone.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be honest, that phone is probably the thing that is most distracting for him.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So we do that as well.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So hopeful that we can redo some of that again next year.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't need all of those accommodations at the beginning of the school year, but sometimes you gotta be flexible.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's the end of the school year.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: We are all literally in survival mode at this point, just ready to know that the kids are gonna be influxing into the home again and we're gonna have to change our schedules.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, let's just get through the next couple weeks.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, speaking about school, um, I'd love to talk to you more about school advocacy and the different things that you put in place.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you mentioned like a 501, I want to, I always want to say a 501c3.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's just that is a nonprofit organization that has nothing to do with ADHD.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but tell tell me how that works.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we have families who, you know, our kids are in private school.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a lot of homeschool families.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, how do you how do you support your childs when you definitely don't have necessarily like a structured plan?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like how how do you how do you do it?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, even in the public schools, it it can look really different based from state to state and even district to district.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, and teacher to teacher and what they understand.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so dive into that and tell me a bit of it.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll talk a little bit about this from uh those different settings.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: So from the public school setting into private and then homeschool settings as well.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So looking at the public school setting, there's a few different tools that we can look at for helping support kids with ADHD.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, these can, again, vary by state.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, for example, here in Kansas where I live, there are uh two different kinds of plans that we can use to help uh support children with ADHD.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one is an IEP or an individualized education plan.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: When ADHD is the primary concern that's affecting learning, it falls under an exceptionality, usually called OHI or other health impairment.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so an IEP is a great tool for kids that maybe are really struggling to access the curriculum and learn in the classroom.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so that means that they actually need a different curriculum than um other children in their class.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Now, would that be because of, you know, if they're visual learners or if they have an auditory processing difficulty?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is that why they could be having trouble?
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so there's a couple of different things.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: There could be, you know, ADHD likes to have friends.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you have ADHD, you're more likely to have other uh neurodevelopmental profiles such as autism, learning disorders, um, more biological kind of anxiety, OCD disorders.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes when we've got all of those things going on, they can compound uh learning difficulties.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And where we tend to see for ADHD, the thing that's most affected is something called executive functioning.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: And executive functioning are all of those skills that are associated with honestly, almost everything we do, but planning, organization, attention, um, processing information, putting information back out, conceptualizing things, and so emotion regulation, even.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we tend to see kids who need IEPs for ADHD.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of the difficulties are with that executive function.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that may be, hey, maybe I can only take in so much information and use it at once.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I need things broken down for me, or I maybe need a different pace of instruction in some cases.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we also can see like maybe it's I have emotion regulation difficulties.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just get so overwhelmed in the classroom for a variety of reasons.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'm having behavioral outbursts that I'm learning for myself and others.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so an IEP may focus on um having additional curricula to help learn the emotion regulation along with accommodations to help um maintain that regulation when they're learning those skills.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes sense.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the individual individualized education plan.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, the IEP.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, IEP.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and it is by definition individualized.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's going to be based on what that child needs for their curriculum.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something you can go to the school for and have someone put that together, but maybe not necessarily from the school, maybe from like the psychiatrist or who puts together the IEP?
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's a couple of different ways that families can access that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: It is uh determined as a team, and the team involves the child, guardians, and then also individuals from the school district uh to determine first of all, does the child meet the criteria for an exceptionality?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: So each state, their criteria may be a little bit different, but there are like here's the criteria you need to meet to be given this exceptionality and qualify for IEP services.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you do meet the exceptionality, then they'll actually work together to collect data and determine what that curriculum needs to look like in that education plan.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if a child does not, or the team decides the child does not meet for that exceptionality, parents do have some um recourse.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: They could actually uh say, you know what, I'm part of the team and I don't agree.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think my child does need an IEP.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And in that case, a lot of families will uh work with people who are called school advocates.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And these are people who understand how that school system works within that state, our district, and they come in and help the family advocate for what they need and why.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh sometimes that might involve saying, you know what, I appreciate that you guys collected this data in the school district.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that I do quite a bit, which are called independent educational evaluations.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: But they could say, I actually want a second opinion.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to go see somebody outside of the district.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that usually is um psychologists, speech therapists, occupied therapists, but people who tend to work more in private practice or hospital settings um may do some testing and and give whether they believe this child maybe might need for an exceptionality and what supports they would need.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, so they can get more data.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And are they meeting benchmarks?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for example, um, when we do uh we call them IEEEs for short.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: When I do an IEEE, the things I'm often looking at are, you know, how does their brain work with a cognitive evaluation?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna look at executive function, um, both direct and uh reported by others and themselves, looking at memory and uh learning tasks.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other one is what we call achievement.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that is just a testing like, are you meeting the uh what what the nation says like you should be in the areas of math, reading, and writing?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, that's that's amazing.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there, I just, you know, there's a lot of resources out there.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just think there's this disconnect with how people can access that or what do they do to go through, you know, because if if a parent has ADHD and they also have executive functioning difficulties, you know, making that call and setting up an appointment, like that's that can be so hard, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and the first point of contact is just calling your local school district first, because a parent can say, I think my child has an exceptionality and they need to be tested.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the interesting thing is you can actually qualify for IEP services if your child meets for that exceptionality and not even be attending the public school system.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we see kids who have IEPs who go to private school, and sometimes they're bust to the public school for some additional services, or those service providers come to them and their school setting.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing with homeschool.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, parents can sometimes get those additional services to help augment what they're doing at home as well.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: But the first point of contact is always contacting your local school district, saying, I think my child has an exceptionality, I'd like an evaluation.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so that starts that process determining.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Then from there, if you know the team has agreement or disagreement, that's where you start.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's good to call in additional folks sometimes.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So uh those educational advocates, uh, I have a few that I like to work with here in Kansas, um less familiar with, you know, other parts of the nation.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if you even just Google educational advocate and enter your school district or your town city, uh that can come up with a list of resources.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's really helpful.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then there are also lawyers uh that specialize in this as well.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're not getting where you want with the advocate and you really see your child needs more, you can work with a lawyer as well who can help you navigate that system.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So what is there's the IEP, and then there's also a 504 plan.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: So can you explain that and how that's a little bit different than the IEP?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so an IEP indicates that a child needs both modification to the curriculum and potentially accommodation.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So something that helps them access the curriculum.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: A 504 plan indicates that the child can, um, if they can access the curriculum, they can learn.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: So we look at accommodations only with a 504 plan.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So there's not going to be a change in the curriculum or how we teach information or, you know, adding in executive, executive function coaching, for example.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so the 504 actually for in most cases is a little bit easier to qualify for.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is helpful to have a documented diagnosis, such as ADHD or other things.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like my kids have ADHD and anxiety, and that's listed on their 504 plans.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then those plans, um, you usually start with uh you know, school counselor, but honestly, if you just reach out to the school district and say, hey, my kid has ADHD, we're really struggling at school, like he's coming home, he's really upset about things.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I would like to talk about a 504 that usually starts with a counselor.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: They'll collect some data from their teachers and other support staff, and then you work with the school to help build that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it also is really helpful to uh have input from other service providers you might be seeing.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if your child sees a therapist, whether that's a psychologist, uh, occupational therapist, speech therapist who's helping work on skills that are likely related to ADHD, if you're seeing one of these individuals, uh they can actually provide recommendations for things that you can do at school to help your child access that curriculum.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And um also the school will collect their data too and say, here's what we think would be helpful as well.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you've been in the space for a long time and you have your own kids.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you're a mom, but you're also on the clinical side of things as well.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've got a really interesting picture about how all of this is working.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in your just your particular opinion, I'm curious where you see things fall through the cracks and how you think, like in your perfect world, how could this work better?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting because I see it like from the private practice.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, our practice also contracts with school districts to provide behavioral support as well.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we've been on that other side of the IUP team with the school district.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I will see where things tend to fall through the cracks.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: One is a lack of information for parents.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, it's like knowing where to start, right?
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when we do diagnostic assessments here and then also at the training clinic where I teach, um, one of our first recommendations is usually this child may benefit from an IEP or 504 plan, reach out to your local school district.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then a lot of times we'll say, here's the person to reach out if we know that school district as well, to make it easier.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like you said, parents don't even know where to start.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then knowing what thing to advocate for.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I've seen examples where um families are advocating for IEPs, and I as a professional might say, like, actually, I think they need a 504.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that they need a modification to the curriculum.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, other times I see kids coming in with 504s, and I'm like, ooh, I just tested your learning and you are not uh learning in this area very well.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're falling behind.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you might need a modification to your curriculum to help you access the learning.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's knowing which of these two um advocate for can be a challenge for parents.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um lastly, I think it it's really intimidating uh for a parent.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Even me, like I I do this, I've been in like the clinical space, the educational space, and the parent space, but even coming in for my own kids' 504 plans, I feel anxious for those meetings because I don't know exactly what to expect.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what they're thinking.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know um we've had varieties of teachers over the years and some that have provided some really great um off-the-record accommodation that maybe lifted my go above and beyond.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so coming in as a parent, it's like, are you going to see the needs that I see and agree with me?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are you going to, you know, what are you thinking?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a little bit more informed, but even then I have to kind of say, what do I need to push on and what do I need to pull back on?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want to be collaborative.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that's another place where things don't work out is if if people are coming in and um blaming.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is the this is the thing that really gets in the way the most in my experience.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's teacher saying, like, hey, they're coming to school dysregulated.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's there's problems at home they need to fix.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: You need to fix your home.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fix your home.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or parents saying, like, you just don't understand my kid, and um you need to do X, Y, and Z.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so one of the things that I really advocate for is looking at whole person within multiple environments.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that individual, yes, they may carry things across environments, but the best predictor of behavior is what's happening in the immediate context of that behavior.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if my child is having issues at school, it doesn't mean that there's nothing going on at home, but it also indicates that something needs to happen at school, um, whether that be an intervention or an accommodation.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's the thing is we want to really focus on what's best for the child and not who's responsible for making it right.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because we're all responsible, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're all responsible for helping this child learn and grow.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to take personal responsibility.
• 18:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it is, it is frustrating when when you don't feel that support or even empathy.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: If someone, right, if someone just had a little bit of empathy and say, I understand where you're coming from.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly don't know how to help you.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's a starting point.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's a beautiful thing, right?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I, as a parent, I had a an experience with my daughter in kindergarten where the the word disrespectful was used.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And my child does have um a history of kind of like avoidance of guilt and shame.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: So when she would get corrections, she would run away from that in the best way she knew in kindergarten, which was to cover her ears and hide under her desk, which is not good.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I and we were working on it at home because we were experiencing the same behavior at home and we'd been working on it for over a year, and it was getting better.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is some of our interventions just take time.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: They don't work the first time we do them.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we found that um letting her calm down and then dealing with it and practicing facing those guilt and shame-inducing um situations was really helpful.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, in that moment where the labeling of the behavior as disrespect and and how I took it, that was a that wasn't that was a a judgment on my parenting and saying, like, you need to teach your child respect.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I those are those are hard.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have I've felt that a lot, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and I overthink everything, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what did they mean by that?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And am I a bad parent?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it is my fault.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: And like all of those voices start going in your head, and you're like, well, hold on.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to, we just need to figure out what is the behavior that's going on and how we're gonna fix it, not like getting it all in our head and overreact.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and ironically, we they had that behavior in different forms up through second grade, and then we had a teacher who just got it and understood it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw her with my daughter, the first parent teacher comfort.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: She can see that, oh my gosh, I don't want to talk to you about your child's behavior because I I don't know how you're gonna react.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I see the teacher's affect, and we told her, Oh, yeah, we know these things, we know these things go on.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're dealing with it at home.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Here's all the and we walk through, here's the things that we're doing.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the look of relief on that teacher's face was um, first of all, she's like, Oh my gosh, thank goodness I'm not telling you something like you're gonna get upset with me.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like no, we know all about this.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And but she really um we said, these are what the things that we're doing.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about what we can do to work together here at school?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that teacher, I mean, we had so much growth in second grade because this teacher really got it.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: She supported her and she accommodated some of the things that we just weren't gonna work through quickly.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the best thing.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was even before we had a 504.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's so encouraging.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I know, I know teachers have set they have so many kids in their classrooms.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I have so much empathy for I I would not be a great teacher.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm in broadcasting and I'm behind a microphone, right?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so, um, I mean, just some of these teachers really go above and beyond and They're like they're amazing.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's and I love that that is what really helped kind of turn things around for you is taking that one special teacher that got it.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I will say that um, and that's the that's an example of that working together.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: We were all working together to try to do the same things across both home and school to help lift her up and help her make progress, knowing that she wasn't by the end of second grade, she wasn't gonna meet the um behavioral expectations of that second grade classroom.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's just accepting some of that and being okay with it and knowing that our job is actually to get her to adulthood with the skills she needs to be an independent adult.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Not my job is not to make her be the perfect child in second grade, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they all learn so different.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: So um looking at your ideas of how could this be better?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I know you mentioned like the collaboration is really important, and we talked about empathy.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um just through your lens as a mom, what would you love to see happen?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to see uh, you know, that collaboration, the empathy.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is that true, truly evidence-based intervention.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about what's truly evidence-based, it's actually implementing what's in the literature, the way it's written, um, and using data, data-based decision making uh as a professional.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I am a data nerd, I'm a behavior analyst by training.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I like to take all kinds of data on behavior.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody's gotta do it, right?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: You love it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so having that data to help inform our interventions rather than just saying, like, we're gonna do this thing because it's in the literature, it's using that data to say what is working.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Am I taking too big of a step?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Am I moving too slowly?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Could we move faster?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me, you know, in the perfect world is that there would be the time and resources that we could actually do this for all kids, because we really see that, you know, predictors, best predictors of success are social uh effectiveness and problem solving, not being the smartest kid.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we could just help all kids to do this a little bit better, um, that would be great.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then I guess the last thing is um really, and this is in the MTSS or multi-tiered systems of support and PBS positive behavior support literature, but really looking at climate and how do kids interact with each other.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for kids with neurodevelopmental profiles, it can be a very alienating experience because maybe, maybe you are impulsive and you bite your tongue a lot.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe you do have emotion regulation difficulty, and you know what, you lose your temper.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe, and I just think about my own kids, and they're like, oh my gosh, my all my peers are correcting my behavior, and it just gets me so frustrated because I actually leave me alone, I'll figure it out.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's like having a culture where there's acceptance can be also kids feel safe in working through these behaviors, not excusing misbehavior or infringing on the rights of others, but being able to come and say, like, I'm working on this, I'm getting back, and having fewer of those social consequences of being a kid who's working on these things and has to work harder on it.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's really good.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think of all the phones and all of the social media stuff that these kids are just consuming all the time, and they're not not behaviors that that are helpful.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of work to be done for sure.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: But um, Katrina, I really appreciate you being on the show again and just diving into the IEP and the 304 plan.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: 504, not the 501c3.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's the only thing that's going in my head.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: The 504 plan and really explaining that I know it's out there and available, but even me like looking at it, I'm like, I still don't understand the difference.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really appreciate you taking the time to do that because a lot of us are just, you know, it's so busy, it's chaos.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And who do I call first?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So call the school first.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, call the school.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't get what you need with the school, find an educational advocate.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then usually I say the lawyer is your your last resort because it's gonna be a lot more expensive.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and tends to be seen as more confrontational, but there there is help out there and support to help you navigate the system.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, where can people find you?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: So the best place to find me and my clinic is at www.beyondtheindividual.com.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much information there.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate what you're doing.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you're a mom and you're right in the trenches too.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you completely understand all sides of this.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much for having me.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks for being on the show, Katrina.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks again for listening to Quick Wins for ADHD moms.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you'd like more information, find some free resources, connect with other people, you can find all of that on our website, theadhdmom.com.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Have a wonderful week.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll see you next time.