Latest / Authentic Living / Redefining Anger: Bronwyn Schweigerdt on Healing, Shame, and Authentic Connections

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Redefining Anger: Bronwyn Schweigerdt on Healing, Shame, and Authentic Connections · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
• 0:08
  about things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:41
  Hi, everyone.
• 0:41
  It's Roxanne Durhodge.
• 0:43
  Thanks for tuning in again, to Authentic Living with Roxanne.
• 0:47
  And today, have a subject matter expert, Bronwyn Schweiskirt, my Oh, Schweigert.
• 0:54
  She's a psychotherapist, and her expertise is anger.
• 0:57
  And I think anger is the type of thing that oftentimes we clear that radius around us
• 1:03
  really quickly when we start to talk about anger because I think in a lot of realms, most
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  people are very uncomfortable with anger, and they've had unfortunate relationships that
• 1:14
  maybe they've been exposed to.
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  So tell you a little bit about Bronwyn, and and then we'll get started.
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  She said instead of fixing people's messes, her goal is to elicit feelings you're most ashamed
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  to have.
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  Right?
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  So don't we all have a bit of shame about things such as hatred and betrayal?
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  And I think most people don't wanna kind of own that as well.
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  She knows that even though feelings are invisible, they don't evaporate.
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  That's a nice way of putting it.
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  Mhmm.
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  They store away in our bodies when they're disowned Yeah.
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  And not acknowledged.
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  So, Bronner, tell me what got you in the path to the field of psychotherapy, and now you've
• 1:53
  obviously landed on a thin edge of a wedge, which is related to shame and anger.
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  But tell me how you got started or what made you want to go into the field.
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  I didn't go looking to for a career change.
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  I already had a master's degree in nutrition.
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  I was very happy with that career, but as life would had it, I fell into a very severe
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  depressive episode myself, and I thought I was losing my mind.
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  So, I went to multiple therapists.
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  And at that time, I was sitting on the therapist's sofa.
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  I remember thinking to myself, Bronwyn, you are hardly functional right now, but I still think
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  you would make a better therapist than this person.
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  And so that was part of my healing journey from that particular depressive episode.
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  I did have a subsequent one after that was actually much longer and more pernicious.
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  Yeah.
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  In retrospect, looking back, realized that my depressive episodes, which were very severe,
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  both of them, were actually a result of my own suppressed or I call it dissociated anger.
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  And I started kind of connecting the dots.
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  I think Freud is famous for having said that depression is anger turned inward.
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  That kind of really resonated with me.
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  I noticed my clients, most of my clients don't have a lot of depression, but more anxiety, but
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  same thing.
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  And I started really noticing their panic attacks.
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  I wonder if you would have allowed yourself to be angry at the thing that happened two hours
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  before, if you would have just been angry and not had the panic.
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  And so started kind of connecting the dots and even seeing a lot of somatic symptoms.
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  And actually there's a lot of research to support this.
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  I'm realizing that we do when we hold it all inside, especially anger, because that's the
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  thing we hold inside the most.
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  We're not really that ashamed of other feelings or emotions, but anger, we really are, and we
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  don't feel like not just ashamed, but we feel afraid to connect with our anger.
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  And so we have an unhealthy relationship with our anger.
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  And so, it does stagnate in our bodies.
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  And research is showing it's actually related to autoimmune disorders.
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  It's related to all kinds of somatic symptoms.
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  I see migraines.
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  I see insomnia.
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  I see a lot of digestive illnesses, vertigo, you know, all these things.
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  So, yeah, I think we do think that, oh, it's invisible.
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  It's not there.
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  But I like to say, you know what?
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  Just because we it's a feeling, it can be trapped in our body.
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  And I believe it's just as real as this laptop that I am speaking to you on right now.
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  So we need to externalize it out of our bodies.
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  That's the goal.
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  And we do that through words.
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  We don't do that through a rage room.
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  I know that's like a trend right now is like going into a.
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  Oh, I don't I haven't heard about those, but you haven't heard about.
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  No.
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  What is a what is a rage room?
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  What is a
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  you pay to go and break old computers.
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  Oh, you mean the things where
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  you'd get a hammer?
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  Oh, I think I I didn't know there was a term for it.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  Okay.
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  So let's let's just back up a little bit.
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  I want you to define anger because I think a lot of times people think explosion is anger.
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  Right?
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  Being too loud is anger.
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  Define it for me in some basic fundamental terms.
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  I'm gonna assume a lot of people listening know what it is, but I wanna understand your
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  definition and what how people can take it in and and understand what how it fits with them.
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  No.
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  I'm glad you're unpacking that, Roxanne, because most people do kind of unconsciously
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  associate anger with the loud, explosive, sensational stuff.
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  And yet, when we suddenly feel anxious, that's usually our anger and we're not allowing
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  ourselves to connect with it.
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  So anger can be very quiet.
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  Anger in a health ideally, anger is me allowing myself to go, you know what?
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  It's okay to feel angry angry right now, Bronwyn.
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  Where do I feel it in my body?
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  Oh, I feel it right here in my chest.
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  So if we start to see anger not as something that is potentially dangerous, but as more like
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  a light on the dashboard of our emotional car saying, hey, check under the hood, something's
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  off.
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  And we see it as the goal is to bring resolution.
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  So we see it as more of a barometer.
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  Something's off.
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  Let's look under the hood.
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  Let's figure out what to do so that everything's working smoothly again.
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  If we can really heal our relationship with anger in that way, seeing it as potentially
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  beneficial, which it really is, potentially.
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  We can heal our relationship and with anger.
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  And that's me just going, yeah, it's okay to feel this right now.
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  I'm feeling it in my body.
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  I'm just letting myself feel it.
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  I don't have to say or do anything right now.
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  I'm just going to know it's valid.
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  And now I can listen to my body.
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  And if I'm feeling at my chest, what does my chest want to say or do?
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  Maybe it wants to be assertive and say, Hey, Roxanne, we said we can meet at nine.
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  It's 09:15.
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  This is like the second time this has happened.
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  What's going on?
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  And that's me externalizing my anger out of my body being responsible for my anger by holding
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  you accountable and giving you an opportunity to respond.
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  Let's say you you're not a safe person and you gaslight me and you say, what's your fault?
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  Whatever.
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  Now what does my anger wanna do?
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  It wants to have a boundary with you because you're not a safe person that I can seek
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  accountability with.
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  So those are kind of really the basics.
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  And I think, you know, what happens, unfortunately, I think children.
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  Right?
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  And you think developmentally, the ability or the inability to be expressive because we all
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  say to kids, don't use that voice.
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  Don't we don't say, tell me why you're using that voice.
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  Right?
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  Or if a child is disruptive and a and being angry or a little bit out of control, the
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  teacher's often not saying, here, little Johnny, what's happening for you?
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  Right now, I understand you may be feeling some things, but right now, I need for you.
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  We'll get back to what you're experiencing, but we'll have you sit we get through the lesson,
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  and then we'll get back.
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  It's generally a shutdown kind of impact.
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  And I think what happens is our little people grow up into big people, and they go into
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  companies.
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  And then we see it showing up on arbitrations.
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  We see it showing up on things like conflict in the workplace.
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  We see it just with people not being able to take direction, lots of things.
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  Until it becomes a big explosive thing, it doesn't get addressed.
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  It's almost, like you said, that I can't express.
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  I don't try to because nobody's gonna listen or make me feel safe.
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  So I develop that pattern.
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  And then I kinda go through most of my life until it gets to a point where somebody gets
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  sick to your point, or I get into trouble at work or my partner says you got a problem.
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  And then at at that point, you're coming to see someone like yourself.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I wanna say the common denominator that you gave with Johnny is invalidating the anger.
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  So we can with kids, we can say, hey.
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  You know, Johnny?
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  I get you're angry right now.
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  However, yeah, here are the parameters like you need to change the tone of voice if you want to
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  be heard.
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  Yeah.
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  Or, you know, you're going to need to sit still and you're going to wait an hour before this
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  happens, but we can still validate it.
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  And so what we do with kids is we invalidate their anger.
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  Also, I think a big one is even earlier in our childhood development.
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  I would say during the terrible twos, call it I want to change the title of that.
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  I don't want it to be the terrible twos anymore.
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  It's who's it terrible for?
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  The parent, not for the child.
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  It is a necessary developmental stage that kids need to go through to separate, to learn, to
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  differentiate from their attachment figure.
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  And yet, as a parent who's lived through it, it's not easy.
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  It's just, it's not easy for the parent.
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  It's not easy for my ego because it doesn't feel good when my daughter who just can't get
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  enough of me one minute now is saying no.
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  Mommy, I do it.
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  And once these boundaries and is showing anger, it's not easy on our egos.
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  So unfortunately, what a lot of parents do is we quash it.
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  We do silent treatment and that communicates to that little toddler, your anger equals
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  abandonment.
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  And so that creates a template in their little brain that they will carry, that we will carry
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  throughout our lives.
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  Me showing any kind of assertiveness, any kind of boundaries equals me being abandoned.
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  And so then I think we just unconsciously are afraid of our own anger.
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  And that also makes us not connect with our anger.
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  It's it's so vital to understand that.
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  Right?
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  Because I think when we come into the world, obviously, we need we're coming in and hoping
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  we're gonna be protected, safe, secure, all those things.
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  And unfortunately, with your our backgrounds, that a lot of people didn't have the, quote
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  unquote, ideal, securely attached, completely vulnerable space where they could evolve into
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  someone with a lot of self worth.
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  Most people are kind of plotting along, and then they hit some spot, and then they realize,
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  I'm an adult now, and I have to make changes, and then they start to work through things.
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  And then something happens, be it anger or whatever.
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  Let's talk a little bit because I know you talk a lot about shame.
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  And Yeah.
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  How do do those kind of impact each other?
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  How do you kinda see it showing up with a lot of your clients?
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  Those types of things.
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  Yeah.
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  So shame, I think we learn early on.
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  I want to say, first of all, I don't consider shame an emotion because I view motions.
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  The word emotion has motion within it.
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  Like it's there to elicit motion.
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  So anger is there to help us go.
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  What do I need to do with this?
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  How can I move forward in a productive way?
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  And shame is the opposite.
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  It doesn't elicit emotion.
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  It actually shuts us down.
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  It makes us stuck.
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  It's debilitating.
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  There's no movement.
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  It's the opposite.
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  And so shame also.
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  Children are born into the world with the whole gamut of emotions, but they're not born in the
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  world with shame.
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  Shame is not native to humans.
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  It is a socially derived feeling that we learn from the parent.
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  And so, mainly, first and foremost, from the parent.
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  And it can be learned so innocuously.
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  It could be learned just from when a baby brother is born and I'm three and I am now
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  losing my mom's attunement, which I had for a good three years, solid to myself.
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  And now my mom, I don't have the objectivity as a three year old to say, mom's just really busy
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  with a newborn, as all mothers are, the newborn demands all of mom's attention, I have the
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  objectivity when I'm three.
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  I'm going to feel rejected.
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  And so I see shame as the residue of all of that, what we consider or what it feels
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  rejection, neglect, any kind of abandonment, of course, abuse, what we consider abuse.
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  Shame's kind of the residue of all that.
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  And it doesn't even need to be actual neglect because when I'm three and my brother's born in
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  the world, that's not what any therapist would call neglect.
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  And yet two or three year old, it is right.
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  It feels so painful and rejecting.
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  And so that creates shame.
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  Where shame is a liar, it instead of saying this is what's really going on, it says you're
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  all bad, you're defective.
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  It's you.
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  It's you, little Bronwyn.
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  You're the problem, right?
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  Not mom is depressed so she doesn't make eye contact.
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  It's no, you're defective and you're unlovable.
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  So, really skewers things.
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  It really distorts reality.
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  And yet when we have shame, it tells us you're not good.
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  You're not good.
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  And we don't trust ourselves.
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  I believe it severs our relationship with ourselves where we don't trust ourselves.
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  And we don't believe we're good inherently.
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  And so what happens is we need to find that goodness from outside of us.
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  We need to have our goodness reflected back to us from someone or something outside of us.
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  And unfortunately, that is not really us.
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  So, I remember like my first experience in grad school when I was much younger, I went to like
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  a pretty good grad school.
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  And I remember, you know, crushing it in some classes and getting really great feedback from
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  my professors.
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  But I went to a therapist at that time on campus and I'm like, it feels good for like
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  five minutes and then it just doesn't.
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  And I want more.
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  What's that all about?
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  And now I realize it's all what it's all about is the goodness I'm getting reflected from my
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  professor is not really a reflection of my core self.
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  And I know that's what I, that is what I truly long for.
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  And only I can give that to myself.
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  And so I need to expel that shame so I can believe I am good.
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  Not perfect, of course, but a net good.
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  And that's what shame severs.
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  So we become kind of enslaved and addicted to these outward things outside of us that that
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  give us that that goodness that we're seeking but it doesn't satisfy.
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  And unfortunately, a lot of those things that or people that give us that feeling of goodness
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  are also manipulative and they're giving that to us in order to derive something from us.
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  And so we end up betraying ourselves, and that creates more shame.
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  And that plays out in the the corporate environment or work environments all the time.
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  If you think about teams and, you know, how if, let's say, the leader has a certain particular
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  style, and then you have let's say you have 10 people, and you have 10 people that have had a
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  different interaction growing up with, say, authority figures, being their parents.
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  And then all of a sudden, do you see the mass chaos unfolding because maybe that person feels
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  invalidated, that person feels there's an epitism, that feel of person feels like that
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  person gets more kudos.
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  And then it's that bit of a swirl, which is really what you're talking about outside of
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  your therapy office into the real world.
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  I always say it kind of ends up being like street theater because all of a sudden you're
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  in the middle of something and you're like, what happened there?
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  There's so many moving parts.
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  Right?
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  And I think what I hear you saying and that I think is so important, the shame is something
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  is I'm flawed versus it's something that I've done that's impacting how I'm feeling about
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  myself.
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  And that that's a fundamentally a a deep, deep core wound when you really think that I am
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  flawed.
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  And like you said, you it's workable, but the only person it's a different I often say
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  between self esteem and self worth.
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  Oh, I can go out and buy the new car or get the the nails done and get the knives first.
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  And then two weeks later, I'm feeling the same.
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  And but if I really spend that time to really connect about why I'm feeling so low or what I
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  could really do or to honor that feeling, then I can kind of allow it to And it doesn't feel
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  good.
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  Like, I've been But through grad school as well, I had to be involved in therapy for a
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  year and it was the first time, know, woah, this is a lot.
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  I don't know.
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  Did I sign up for this?
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  What I realized is that was the only way I could be able to also open myself up with
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  whatever I've been through to be able to create the space for my clients as well.
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  Yes.
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  Yeah.
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  So like to your first point with everyone, all those people are seeking that authority figures
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  approval.
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  So I call that approval addiction.
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  And that's what shame does, is we become approval addicts where we're trying to prove
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  ourselves to someone, but we're really trying to prove ourselves to ourselves because that
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  shame is there.
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  And we're trying to, like, dislodge it and it never works.
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  It will never work permanently.
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  But we're always, like, to that authority figure.
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  And that authority figure can be manipulative, but he or she could also just go, why is
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  everyone bending over backward?
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  Why is everyone doing all this craziness?
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  Necessarily.
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  They're not necessarily abusing their power.
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  But we all kind of do that and inherently.
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  So the solution is to dislodge the shame.
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  And I absolutely believe let me give you an example that I believe that is possible.
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  So a few years, like four years ago, I was out for a run and I think my brain was just
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  unconsciously processing so much of this stuff as a therapist with my own clients, just like
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  the shame stuff.
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  And so what happened is on my run, I was at a stoplight, I closed my eyes and I picture my 10
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  year old self.
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  I picture 10 year old Bronwyn at the dining room table with her dad mocking her because my
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  dad from ages 10 until I left for college would mock me every night at the dinner table.
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  And I imagined adult Bronwyn entering that memory, going over to little Bronwyn, getting
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  on her level, looking her in the eyes and saying, little Bronwyn, I know you feel so
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  ashamed right now.
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  I know that.
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  And I see why.
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  But you know what we're going to do?
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  We're going to put all this shame in a big cardboard box, and we're going to give it back
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  to our dad, and we're going to say, hey, dad, you know what?
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  I'm realizing that this isn't actually ours.
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  It never was.
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  This is yours.
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  This belongs to you.
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  Do with it what you will, but return to owner.
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  Here you go.
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  And in that five second long exercise, something shifted in me so profoundly,
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  profoundly where I felt like I kind of came back into my core, so to speak.
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  And I believe shame lives in our core.
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  It lives in our gut.
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  That's where we mainly feel it.
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  And I also believe our core being lives in our gut.
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  And so I was able to just lodge it, and I felt like I reconnected with me.
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  I felt like I started to trust myself, to trust my gut, so to speak.
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  And the crazy thing was when someone tried to gaslight me maybe a year later, I sat there
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  like with a smirk on my face and it was so apparent to me what he was trying to do.
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  It was almost like you put up a force field based on what you had done with that exercise
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  with your dad.
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  Yes.
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  And that was the first time I've ever experienced that.
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  In the past, Going back to the extreme depressive episodes I had, that was from
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  allowing people shame to pass.
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  There was no semi permeable membrane.
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  It was just like, I just let it all in.
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  And this time I just sat there.
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  I know what you're doing.
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  I see you.
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  I've got your number.
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  I see what you're speaking.
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  It was so obvious.
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  And I realized like I had inoculated myself to shame now and it was so apparent.
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  So I did a few more of those exercises on myself in regards to my mother and my early
• 21:02
  childhood, but I will now say there is no residue of shame in me anymore.
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  I trust myself.
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  I no longer betray myself.
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  I've learned to be true to myself.
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  All of those things naturally come when we dislodge the shame and we kind of really come
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  into ourselves and become fully healthy and whole.
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  And so my podcast, I do an exercise called dislodging shame exercise for listeners.
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  I want more than just my clients to do this for themselves.
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  I do this with my clients, obviously, but I want the listener to be able to just
• 21:37
  appropriate that and do that for themselves as well.
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  It's so powerful.
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  So let's I know we were thought we would talk a little bit about what the state of the global
• 21:47
  global kind of I'm gonna call it a global swirl.
• 21:51
  I don't know what else to call it, Robin, other than there's so much moving parts going on here
• 21:56
  politically and with the wars going on.
• 22:00
  There's a lot of uncertainty and I'm going to say a lot of anxiety, depression.
• 22:06
  Lots of If people are out there and they're saying, It's all well and good.
• 22:11
  You're a psychotherapist.
• 22:12
  You've been blah, blah, blah.
• 22:13
  You know what to do.
• 22:14
  What would be some of the basic things?
• 22:16
  If somebody says, I'm overwhelmed.
• 22:18
  Get up and put on CNN or CBC here in Canada and I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do.
• 22:25
  I get out of bed, I think I'm okay, and then I'm not okay.
• 22:28
  What would be some basic fundamental things, Bronwyn, that you would tell him to start
• 22:31
  consider doing?
• 22:33
  I think I would start with knowing that your feelings matter.
• 22:37
  It doesn't feel like they do when we're just like one of billions of people on planet earth
• 22:41
  right now, but just validating.
• 22:44
  I can feel anger.
• 22:46
  I can feel it.
• 22:46
  Where do I feel it?
• 22:47
  Is it my chest?
• 22:48
  Where is it my body?
• 22:49
  Do I feel it my shoulders?
• 22:51
  Just really connecting with ourselves somatically.
• 22:55
  What is what do my shoulders want to say right now in fantasy?
• 22:58
  Do they push off something?
• 23:00
  Are they like pushing against something?
• 23:02
  Are they feeling oppressed?
• 23:04
  And that's self attunement.
• 23:06
  Attuning to ourselves.
• 23:07
  What do they want to say or do?
• 23:09
  And then doing that because our feelings tell us what we need.
• 23:12
  And so knowing that our feelings matter, they are valid.
• 23:16
  They're there for a good reason.
• 23:17
  They're there to give us wisdom and they're there to teach us our needs.
• 23:21
  What do I need?
• 23:22
  Maybe I need to write a letter to my congressperson.
• 23:26
  Maybe I just need to talk and meet with someone else to validate who feels the same.
• 23:31
  Maybe, you know, what I need to do, what's personally helped me is to like learn more
• 23:36
  about history and how it's repeating itself.
• 23:39
  And that can give us some hope because some really hopeful things have come out of past
• 23:44
  horrific historical experiences that seem to be echoing right now, maybe it's to learn more
• 23:51
  contextually about all of this, like what fueled it and what I can do personally.
• 23:56
  But really starting there.
• 23:59
  Yeah, just the basic fundamentals, right, versus succumbing.
• 24:02
  I often say that when we're experiencing a lot of things, the body overrides, right?
• 24:07
  And we have to literally have to befriend the body versus looking away from it because it's
• 24:12
  got all the tells, right?
• 24:14
  It's telling you something's up, the heaviness with a lot of people that I've I coached a
• 24:19
  woman this morning, and she's talking about the heaviness she's feeling and in her position and
• 24:25
  kind of globally with the company that she works with.
• 24:28
  And so it's, of course, I'm saying, say, you honor it, bear it, and let it go, but recognize
• 24:32
  that we don't have certainty at this particular point.
• 24:35
  It may take time, but all you can do is do little bits at a time every single day to take
• 24:40
  care of yourself.
• 24:41
  Because if you don't, the alternative is then you're unwell, and then the world just goes on
• 24:45
  like normal.
• 24:46
  Right?
• 24:47
  Yeah.
• 24:48
  So, Bronwyn, so tell us a little bit more about the podcast and where people can check it out
• 24:54
  and so that they can learn some of these fantastic things that you're talking about.
• 24:59
  Thank you.
• 25:00
  Yeah.
• 25:00
  So it's called Angry at the Right Things, and it's found wherever you subscribe to your
• 25:04
  podcast.
• 25:05
  It yeah.
• 25:06
  So I do a lot of this kind of we're talking about these kind of things, and then I do very
• 25:12
  practical exercises too.
• 25:15
  I want listeners to really, I think what really needs to happen is insight as a therapist,
• 25:20
  insight is so helpful, but there also needs to be the practical where the rubber meets the
• 25:27
  road approach too.
• 25:28
  And so I do these practical exercises like the shame exercise and then another exercise called
• 25:34
  the integration exercise where we integrate with our inner child.
• 25:38
  I also just did recently one called a self forgiveness exercise.
• 25:43
  So those are things that we can just appropriate for ourselves.
• 25:47
  Fantastic.
• 25:48
  Well, it's been an honor having you share your wisdom, like, so needed when we realize the
• 25:54
  importance of our mental, I gotta say, chest because we have to take care of that internal
• 25:59
  space.
• 26:00
  Because if we don't, then that's when we start to trip up.
• 26:03
  And then before you know it, it's not just tripping up.
• 26:05
  It becomes so much more.
• 26:07
  I'm gonna say to you, if you wanna learn some techniques, definitely check out Robin's
• 26:12
  podcast.
• 26:13
  And with me, I'm just gonna say, it starts with us regardless of what you've been through.
• 26:18
  We've all been through something in our lives to have lived, means you you're human and you
• 26:23
  felt pain, but it need not be suffering.
• 26:25
  And if you're wanting to know, you know, how authentically connected you are to yourself in
• 26:30
  relationship or to others either at home and at work, just go to roxanned'orhoch.com forward
• 26:35
  slash quiz.
• 26:35
  Fill out a little mini quiz, and I'll send you some results, and then we can get on jump on a
• 26:40
  discovery call to discuss the results further.
• 26:43
  Again, Robin, thanks so much for your time.
• 26:45
  And for everyone, thanks for putting up with me, hanging out with us, and we'll chat with
• 26:49
  you again next week.
• 26:51
  Take care.
• 26:52
  Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 26:58
  healthy change.
• 26:59
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 27:03
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannederhaj.com/blueprint.
• 27:09
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.