Latest / 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast / With Great Power #356... 22 Panels with Doug Wagner

Transcript

With Great Power #356... 22 Panels with Doug Wagner · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

• 0:02
  Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to 22 Panels. I am joined tonight in the hosting chair by Jay and Edgar at Modern Age Comics. Dr. Edgar Ramos is a regular, Jay is a first-timer here on 22 Panels, and
• 0:19
  Tad Eggleston: Absolutely not a first-timer, a… a… I looked it up right before the show, Doug. This is your…
• 0:27
  Tad Eggleston: 8th appearance.
• 0:29
  Doug Wagner: Which, which…
• 0:32
  Tad Eggleston: ties you with Alex Cormac and puts you one behind Shelley Bond, among… among the people who have appeared as a guest the most. Everybody else does… does book clubs to manage to,
• 0:46
  Tad Eggleston: to do more. So… so yeah, thank you for coming back again. It's always such a blast to talk to you.
• 0:55
  Tad Eggleston: We, I know Jay and I just actually read the second issue of…
• 1:01
  Tad Eggleston: of you, me, even though that doesn't come out until next Wednesday, and I don't know if Edgar's read the second issue yet, because he didn't have me share it, because he's having his birthday and was doing stuff. But I think he read the first issue. We also backed, or I backed.
• 1:19
  Tad Eggleston: I assume Edgar Bacht, he likes your work too much not to have. I Love Apocalypse Zombies.
• 1:26
  Tad Eggleston: Is it zombie misfits? I love apocalyptic zombie misfits.
• 1:31
  Doug Wagner: That's a little bit of a mouthful.
• 1:32
  Tad Eggleston: novel that you and Daniel did with Clover Press, so I'm gonna be interested in what, like, working with the new company was like. And, Narco comes out in, like.
• 1:43
  Tad Eggleston: 3 weeks in trade paperback? 2 weeks in trade paperback, yeah.
• 1:46
  Doug Wagner: Nope.
• 1:47
  Tad Eggleston: So, big year, as always. Great stuff.
• 1:52
  Doug Wagner: Oh, thanks, man! I mean, yeah, it's kind of cool to, like, have a different group of books coming out every year, and this year, like, didn't disappoint with, like, very drastically different books. Yeah. Yumi and I Love Apoculated Zombie Misfits are definitely different styles.
• 2:08
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 2:09
  Doug Wagner: So I was pretty excited about this year.
• 2:11
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. And we talked some about Narco already, so we'll come back to that, because I loved it. We can be more spoilery, but if we're going to do spoilery stuff, we should do that late in the podcast. Give me the front counter pitch for Yumi00X.
• 2:28
  Doug Wagner: I mean, this one…
• 2:29
  Tad Eggleston: Just makes me laugh out loud.
• 2:30
  Doug Wagner: This one's a lot of fun, like, we call it an anti-spy thriller. So, you know, it's the typical spy thriller. So basically, like, imagine James Bond, you know, and in all those old movies, he would find a female, kind of get her to do what he wanted to, and then you'd never see her again. Well.
• 2:48
  Doug Wagner: An MIS6 agent has done that to Yumi, and she's not the one you want to ghost. So, she basically goes on a worldwide tour of burning down every intelligent agency, trying to find this MIS6 agent that has ghosted her.
• 3:02
  Edgar Ramos: Who's the inspiration for that character?
• 3:04
  Doug Wagner: Honestly, like, Hoyt Silva and I were just kicking around ideas, and you know, he brought this crazy idea of, like, you know, what if we called… he just had the idea of 00X, and and I was like, oh man, then we just started kind of running with it, you know, and then it's kind of, you know.
• 3:18
  Doug Wagner: how the muses work is they kind of, like, you know, they whisper as you're building things, and it just became one of those ideas to where, like, we really wanted to do something spy, but, like, a little bit, of course, with me, quirky and irreverent. So, you know, like, we just kind of jumped on board and ran with it.
• 3:35
  Edgar Ramos: I mean, what was the… what was the inspiration for the super smart car that sounds like Cardi B?
• 3:39
  Doug Wagner: Again, I knew that I wanted her to steal, like, an MI6 car, you know? When I grew up, James Bond always… every, you know, new movie that came out had a cool boat, or a cool car, or something, and I knew I wanted her to steal a cool car. And then, you know.
• 3:54
  Doug Wagner: not wanting to be the mean rider, I asked Hoyt, I was like, what kind of car do you want to draw on every page? And he's like, dude, I love Lamborghinis. And I was like, pick your Lamborghini and we'll run with it. And so, you know, he was kind of the inspiration behind it being a Lamborghini, and then we were just kind of kicking around, like.
• 4:11
  Doug Wagner: honestly, it… the way Yumi approached it is the way we kind of approached it, you know, in the story, like, boy, it was like, man, it kind of sounds like a British butler. It'd be cooler if we could do something different. And then we just kind of started running through different things until we landed on Cardi B, and I was, you know, the second I started watching a Cardi B interview, I went, that's the voice of… of…
• 4:29
  Doug Wagner: this car. It has to be.
• 4:33
  Edgar Ramos: That's really cool. It's really cool. You know, it's funny, because when I was, I read Issue, I haven't read Issue 2 yet, it was kind of like, huh, this is what 90… this is what 99 could have been in the Get Smart? You guys ever watch Get Smart?
• 4:44
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
• 4:45
  Edgar Ramos: It was like, you know, this is what 99 could have been, and if the show came out in this era. I'm like, that's how I would have pictured, you know, 99. I'm like, this is pretty cool, so I can't wait to read number 2, so obviously I don't know yet.
• 4:56
  Edgar Ramos: I thought that was good. Did you model her specifically outside of, you know, the idea? Did you have, like, a… well, who do you want her to… who do you want us to think about?
• 5:06
  Edgar Ramos: When… when human comes to life.
• 5:08
  Doug Wagner: I don't… you know, when I'm creating a character, I don't really think about, like, who I… who I'd cast, or any of those kind of things. It's kind of like whatever hits, and Hoyt's wife is Japanese-American.
• 5:19
  Edgar Ramos: Oh, interesting.
• 5:19
  Doug Wagner: So, you know, like, when we were talking about, you know, like, what kind of character we wanted to do, he goes, well, my wife's Japanese American, what if we went down that route, and then you can call her if you have any questions. And I was like, that's perfect, I have an immediate resource at hand. Like, let's jump on it. And as you've seen in the book, like, she's credited as the editor of the book.
• 5:39
  Edgar Ramos: Okay. And I noticed that one of the things, the first things that caught my eye in the covert, at least, of number one, was the art style. I'm so used to, like, the plush vinyl, like, all that, the art style, and then this one was…
• 5:52
  Edgar Ramos: different for me? Is there.
• 5:54
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 5:55
  Doug Wagner: I mean, no, I mean, basically, it's just you bump into different artists over time, you know, it's just like, you know, people… people email me all the time going, hey, how do I find artists? And I was like, man, it's just like, you go on the internet, and you bump around until you find somebody. Hoyt Silva was actually the intern for Brian Stelfrys for several years. And as you know, like, Brian Stelfrys and I are pretty close.
• 6:16
  Doug Wagner: So, you know, that's how we met, and we were…
• 6:18
  Tad Eggleston: And you still haven't brought him on 22 Panels. You've been talking about bringing him on 22 Panels since the first time you came on 22 Panels.
• 6:26
  Doug Wagner: Getting Brian to commit to a podcast is, is not an easy path.
• 6:30
  Tad Eggleston: I know.
• 6:31
  Tad Eggleston: It's a.
• 6:32
  Doug Wagner: So I met Hoyt through Brian, and Hoyt was just like, hey, we should work on something together, and that's kind of how it got started.
• 6:39
  Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I thought the art was very…
• 6:42
  Edgar Ramos: It really highlighted the character's personality, because it was, like, loud, bright, you know, it was like…
• 6:49
  Edgar Ramos: You know, and it's funny, you know, like, you don't realize, I don't think people realize enough how much each style can, you know, accentuate
• 6:58
  Edgar Ramos: either the writer, or the writer accentuates the art, like, they're… you need them, they go hand in hand, and I don't know if it's just, like, a magical good luck wish that happens, or is it a thought about, like, you know what, well, this is gonna really make my character look like… or, like, how does that recipe happen? Like, that's what I always find intriguing.
• 7:15
  Doug Wagner: I mean, dude, a lot of times it's magic, but, like, if… I'd like to think, like, as a writer, I have a tendency to focus in on what the artist wants to draw, and what they're good at. So, you know, like, obviously, if this was, like, say, Daniel Warren Johnson.
• 7:28
  Doug Wagner: was drawing Yumi. It would be a completely different book, right? Like, we're ripping out spines, and, you know, like, you know, like, it's a totally different book. But yeah, I mean, as a writer, you kind of have to lean into that, right? Like, you can't just automatically go, hey, listen, I'm gonna write whatever story I want, regardless of what this artist can or can't draw. You have to take into account what they're gonna bring to the table, and as you pointed out, like, I mean, immediately.
• 7:52
  Doug Wagner: Hoyt's… Hoyt's art is sassy.
• 7:54
  Doug Wagner: So I was like, well, the character has to be sassy, you know? Like, the car has to be sassy, you know?
• 7:59
  Edgar Ramos: Yeah, it ran hand-in-hand. It was just like, that's what grabbed me. I'm like, yeah, that art is very loud, very brag, like, wow, okay, and the character, I'm like, yeah, this is… yeah, I could see it in my head. If I close my eyes, I could still see it, and I'm like, yeah, this makes sense to me.
• 8:13
  Doug Wagner: That's awesome, I love that. Thank you!
• 8:15
  Edgar Ramos: I actually really liked the personality of Yumi. I mean, I know the tagline was an anti-spy thriller, but it was just really refreshing to have someone be, like, bright and cheery, like, oh, no, I'm just gonna go find this guy, and I'll just, like, shout out whoever I have to go through to get to it. It's gonna be okay, it's no problem. I'll still be there in time for your birthday, don't worry about it. I mean.
• 8:33
  Edgar Ramos: I thought that was hilarious, but also, like, really, like… I actually really like the main character, like, this is great.
• 8:38
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean, we wanted to make her, like.
• 8:40
  Doug Wagner: 10 times a spy that any MI6 agent would be. And since she's so competent, and she knows she's super competent, she's also super, you know, confident in how she approaches life, you know? And she's like, oh yeah, I'll be back in a minute, it's no problem, this isn't a big deal.
• 8:59
  Edgar Ramos: You don't see a lot of super spies like that, so that's kind of nice. I'll have a drink before I go, because, you know, I don't know when I'll get another one. She'll just be like, oh, no, I'll order something for the table, I'll be right back. But it's cool, because, you know, I'm an old guy, obviously, you know, I'm 52 now, so anytime I read a comic in this generation, a new comic.
• 9:19
  Edgar Ramos: because of all the time reading all this old, you know, older stuff, the 70s and 80s, and watching the cartoons and shows, it always makes me think back and, you know, reminisce, and kind of like, oh, remind… and it's funny, because I already referenced the 99 from Get Smart, but you know who also is just kind of like.
• 9:34
  Edgar Ramos: it was nice to see, like, remember Penny from Inspector Gadget?
• 9:38
  Edgar Ramos: Oh, yeah.
• 9:39
  Tad Eggleston: Yep.
• 9:39
  Edgar Ramos: The little girl. The little girl, yeah. Well, it's not that she reminds me of Penny, but you think about, like, well, you had Get Smart was about the guy, but it was really about 99. Inspector Gadget was Inspector Gadget, but it was really Penny doing everything. Now you have, you know, the anti-spy, Yumi, that's actually, like, it's her. It's not about this other character that they have to highlight behind, you know, it's like a female lead role, which I thought was
• 10:02
  Edgar Ramos: really good. I mean, as a father of, you know, a few daughters, it was like, there's a freaking character that my kids, you know, my daughters can see and laugh, and like, it's a female-led character.
• 10:12
  Edgar Ramos: My question being is, did you know it was gonna be female-led? Like, you had it in your head, like, I want a female-led character because I want a strong representation of that, or did you think this… that's just what she embodied? That's what the character embodies? How did that thinking… what was in your head?
• 10:26
  Edgar Ramos: Bring me in there, but just for a second, because I already know what's partly in there.
• 10:30
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, yeah, you already know parts. I mean, for this one, it was very, like I said, it was very important.
• 10:36
  Doug Wagner: that she wasn't, like, a damsel in distress, that she… you know, because, I mean, we're kind of playing off that James Bond thing, right? So we don't… we don't want to lean too hard into, like, oh, she's just known for being pretty, which was basically the Bond girls for decades, right? There wasn't a lot upstairs for most of them.
• 10:52
  Doug Wagner: And they weren't very confident or competent.
• 10:55
  Edgar Ramos: We're very pretty.
• 10:56
  Doug Wagner: Right, and so we wanted to kind of go make sure we went the exact opposite of that, and that this MI6 agent bumped into somebody that was 10 times more competent than they were. And that, you know, and that just kind of led into the whole character and, you know…
• 11:11
  Doug Wagner: you've heard me say this before, Edgar, like, my… once I start creating characters, they kind of start telling me what to do, not vice versa. So, you know, like, she just kind of started speaking to me, and and I let her run.
• 11:23
  Edgar Ramos: No, no, I have notes about our discussions.
• 11:27
  Edgar Ramos: And definitely, sidebar's on it, too. No, I'm just totally kidding. Yeah, no, I think that's one of the things I appreciate, you know, like, when I think of, I was a fashion school, serial killer, I… the character leads that you develop, and especially with females, it's just…
• 11:40
  Edgar Ramos: you make them very strong, poignant, and you don't do the stereotype, typical work with them, and that's what I find refreshing, but also inspiring. It's like, it makes me feel like these are things that I hope my daughters read, and kind of read and go like, yeah, we can have this just as much, you know, you don't have to read Inspector Gadget, you don't have to read, you know, like, you have your own character. I thought that was good. And it's even the differences, not to go back and
• 12:04
  Edgar Ramos: in your history, but, like, even with, vinyl, the older, you know, you have, like, you have a very broad array of character development.
• 12:13
  Edgar Ramos: And that… how does that work? Like, you… there's, like, almost no limit, like, you can write, you know, a woman, you can write an older man, you can write, you know, a person of color.
• 12:23
  Edgar Ramos: how does that go about with you? Like, do you just envision a story, and then flesh the character out, or do you envision the character, and then flesh the story out with it? Like, how does that typically go about?
• 12:33
  Doug Wagner: Well, man, it can go both ways. You know, like, no two stories are ever the same, for me, anyway, in their development. Sometimes, the story comes to you immediately, and you've got to flesh out the character, and, you know, and that does… regardless, it's always tough. Like, if I have the story first, and I'm trying to figure out the character, figuring out the character's tough. But if I have the character first.
• 12:53
  Doug Wagner: Figuring out the story next is tough, you know, like, trying to find the right space.
• 12:57
  Doug Wagner: And I don't know necessarily, like, if I sit down and think about, like, hey, I'm gonna write
• 13:04
  Doug Wagner: you know, a strong female lead, or I'm gonna write an older man. It's more like I sit down and let that character develop in my head. And I think, you know, I'm a pretty sensitive person, and also, I think, you know, I consider myself pretty empathic.
• 13:16
  Doug Wagner: And it's just about writing a person. You know, like, putting myself in their shoes and going, hey, what if I was a, you know, 60-year-old
• 13:24
  Doug Wagner: serial killer starting to have dementia? Like, what would… how would that affect me? And so that's where it comes from, versus, like, going, hey, let me focus on writing an older person. It's kind of learning to identify with what they're going through. And it was the same with Yumi. It's like, hey, wait a minute, like.
• 13:38
  Doug Wagner: what if that had happened to me? How would I react? And, you know, if I had Yumi's skill set, this is how I would approach it.
• 13:47
  Edgar Ramos: Just touching on what you said earlier about, finding a character that, like, feels fully formed, and then going and developing the story around them, or finding a story that you really like, and then kind of developing a character for that.
• 13:59
  Edgar Ramos: how did that work for Plastic? Because the main character in that is Gonzo Insane, but then you also came back and did, I believe, Death and Dolls, the prequel, where it kind of touches on his…
• 14:12
  Edgar Ramos: early history a little bit. Like, what, did you, like, did you finish plastic and you were like.
• 14:16
  Edgar Ramos: I've still got more for him to kind of obsess over, or was it just something where, like, you had an itch where you wanted to just, like, kind of continue that story, or continue that kind of follow-through for his plotline?
• 14:28
  Doug Wagner: The creation of Plastic was kind of like one of those one rare-offs, where the entire story and character came to me in about a 2-minute time period.
• 14:37
  Edgar Ramos: Wow.
• 14:38
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, so it was just one of those strange… I was on a… on a very.
• 14:41
  Tad Eggleston: I was supposed to… Was that when you and Brian were driving to HeroesCon?
• 14:46
  Doug Wagner: Well, we were driving to BaltimoreCon.
• 14:48
  Tad Eggleston: BaltimoreCon. Yeah. Okay.
• 14:50
  Doug Wagner: you know, we're crossing the line into Virginia, and Virginia doesn't have, you know, Welcome to Virginia signs, which I think is the only state that doesn't. They have Buckle Up Virginia, and the very next sign is Virginia's for lovers.
• 15:02
  Doug Wagner: Interesting.
• 15:03
  Tad Eggleston: Immediately.
• 15:03
  Doug Wagner: You know, like, that… those two in my… in this crazy road trip I was having, like, the whole story kind of came to me, and I knew immediately who Walter… I remember Walter, Edwin and Virginia were. And then, yeah, I mean, honestly, after… because we didn't expect plastic to sell a copy. Like, Daniel and I thought it was just something we were doing for us.
• 15:21
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, that was totally an underground hit. I was working in a shop when that came out, and…
• 15:26
  Tad Eggleston: Like, that was definitely one of those handful of books that we sold pretty well on Issue 1, but then sold better on Issue 2, better on Issue 3, even better on Issue 4. You know, people were just jumping on right up till the end.
• 15:44
  Doug Wagner: And because it was doing so well, we thought maybe we should do a second one, and I kind of came up with the basic premise of what the second one would look like. Then Eric Stevenson at Image kind of started explaining, like, how economically, it's kind of a bad idea to follow one miniseries with another miniseries immediately.
• 16:03
  Doug Wagner: And so, you know, basically what he said is, you know, and this is, of course, just an overgeneralization, so, you know, keep that in mind. He said what retailers will typically do is, wherever number 5 ended on the first miniseries, that's what they will typically order of number 1 on the new miniseries. So, you know, obviously there's typically an attrition from issue 1 to 5.
• 16:21
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 16:22
  Doug Wagner: So then when the new one comes out immediately, and it's a number 1, they just order what number 5 ended at. So you don't get that growth period. So he's like, hey, let's put a couple of years between that. And then.
• 16:31
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and then you expanded the universe to boot.
• 16:34
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, yeah, then we did vinyl and plush first. Then we came back to Death and Dolls, and honestly, like, you know, this might scare you a little bit, but, you know, Edgar will appreciate this. A lot of the 10-year-old stuff in Edwin's story is from my life.
• 16:49
  Doug Wagner: very personal.
• 16:53
  Edgar Ramos: I lose the distance between us, so I'm okay, it's fine.
• 16:57
  Edgar Ramos: He has long resolved those issues, it's all been settled. In the comics, he goes to the older fella first, so I think I'm fine.
• 17:08
  Edgar Ramos: So, Yumi's… how do I say this? Yumi's… let's put it in quotation, love interest.
• 17:15
  Edgar Ramos: Is it love?
• 17:17
  Doug Wagner: I mean, that's gonna be a different definition for everybody, right?
• 17:21
  Doug Wagner: So, for Yumi, at this time, yes, she's absolutely in true, you know, love at first sight, complete love, she's, she's, you know, head over heels in love with this guy.
• 17:34
  Doug Wagner: In her opinion. You know, like, obviously we can talk about, like, you know, what the different definitions of love are, you know, and and infatuation, and lust, and all those kind of things, but for Yumi, she believes she's in love, and she believes Richard loves her, too.
• 17:50
  Edgar Ramos: Hmm.
• 17:51
  Doug Wagner: I mean, mostly because he told her that.
• 17:54
  Edgar Ramos: I'm panic, and you believe what here?
• 17:57
  Doug Wagner: And what do I believe?
• 17:59
  Edgar Ramos: Huh?
• 18:00
  Doug Wagner: I mean, for me, I think she… I mean, she honestly is head over heels in love with him.
• 18:07
  Edgar Ramos: I'm not… I won't push too much, I'm just trying to understand. I think before you push hard, you should read Issue 2. That's why I haven't read issue…
• 18:15
  Edgar Ramos: I'm trying to get a sneak peek here for myself, like, alright, what's going on here? I mean, you know, he mentioned some stuff that's in issue, too. I caught that from him.
• 18:25
  Edgar Ramos: He's leaking, he's leaking, okay, okay.
• 18:28
  Tad Eggleston: So let's… let's shift gears a little bit, because I… I haven't gotten to read yet, because it's… it's a Kickstarter thing, and…
• 18:38
  Tad Eggleston: And they haven't shipped mine to me yet. I don't even know if Daniel's done with it. I don't know how you did it, but let's talk some I Love Apocalyptic Zombie Misfits, which is also available at the Clover Press website.
• 18:52
  Tad Eggleston: Which I think is also… was it the first creator-owned graphic novel that Clover was doing?
• 18:59
  Doug Wagner: In the new line, yes.
• 19:01
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 19:01
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 19:02
  Tad Eggleston: did they come to you? Did you go to them? How did… let's start with how did this come together? Because, like, I know Clover Press, but I know them more for…
• 19:13
  Tad Eggleston: Like, like,
• 19:16
  Doug Wagner: our notebooks.
• 19:18
  Tad Eggleston: Definitely lots of art books, and, and the, the… They distribute some other creative
• 19:26
  Tad Eggleston: Creator-owned stuff that's through, like, other…
• 19:29
  Tad Eggleston: small publishers that need, like, the distribution partner. But, like, this… this got news, because it was, oh, we're… we're going into this…
• 19:40
  Tad Eggleston: This new thing.
• 19:43
  Tad Eggleston: where it… I guess, I guess they… they… well, I don't know if, like, Carmen was a creator-owned, but it was… it was at least a graphic novel.
• 19:55
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, like, there… there are other graphic novels that… that aren't, like… Comic strips or art books.
• 20:04
  Tad Eggleston: have been… adaptations or, like, history. So this is, like, the first… original graphic novel, I think.
• 20:14
  Tad Eggleston: That they're doing.
• 20:17
  Tad Eggleston: And I mean, I'm always excited to see more people in the game, so I'm curious as to what the experience was, and then tell us about the book, because, you know, it looks cool.
• 20:28
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean, this goes all the way back to my very first break in comics, which was with Malibu Comics. And the editor at that point in time was Hank Knultz.
• 20:38
  Doug Wagner: And now Hank Knultz is running Clover Press. So he called me up one day, and we were just kind of keeping in touch. And we started just bouncing ideas around, like, what would we do if we did, like, create our own line in Clover? And so it was kind of a mutual, like, us talking it out and kind of figuring it out together along the path.
• 20:57
  Doug Wagner: And hank's fantastic to work with. He just basically, almost like Image, he's just like, hey, go… I trust you, go do what you want to do, bring me back what you… when you're finished, and we'll kickstart it. And just so you know, like, it is completely done. Like, it's been done for months.
• 21:12
  Tad Eggleston: Excellent.
• 21:12
  Edgar Ramos: Shut up.
• 21:13
  Doug Wagner: So,
• 21:15
  Tad Eggleston: So I should have asked for my digital copy.
• 21:18
  Doug Wagner: Yes, you should have.
• 21:19
  Tad Eggleston: I forgot.
• 21:19
  Doug Wagner: And and this one was just a strange, like, after Daniel and I had finished, fashion school, I said, hey, dude, what do you want to work on next? And he said, I'd like to do something supernatural.
• 21:33
  Doug Wagner: And I was like, well, can you give me a list of what that means? Because as you know, like, with anything supernatural, that's a broad category.
• 21:40
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 21:41
  Doug Wagner: And so he went and he gave me a list of everything that he loves in the supernatural.
• 21:44
  Doug Wagner: And, it took, you know, I was like, man, I can't pick one, I don't, you know, do I want to do vampires? Do I do, wanna, you know, do shapeshifters, angels? What do I want to do? And then 5-year-old Doug spoke up at one point and says, why don't you do them all?
• 21:59
  Doug Wagner: And so, we created.
• 22:01
  Tad Eggleston: Of course.
• 22:01
  Doug Wagner: Yes, of course.
• 22:02
  Tad Eggleston: Of course!
• 22:03
  Doug Wagner: And so I took that list and went, we're gonna do a supernatural story that involves all these characters, and throw them on a crazy road trip, to keep…
• 22:14
  Doug Wagner: Heaven and Hell from winning the war.
• 22:17
  Doug Wagner: That they're engaging.
• 22:17
  Tad Eggleston: I think 5-year-old Doug would have gotten together, or gotten along with 4-year-old Tad. It's come up a couple of times lately that my first comic purchase was Secret Wars number 1. Oh, wow. Because it had all the heroes.
• 22:33
  Tad Eggleston: I'd been debating between Marvel team up… I had a Marvel team-up, I forget which one I'd picked out, because, you know, it was a shop that had, like, the last 4 or 5 months, or…
• 22:42
  Tad Eggleston: 4 of the last 6 months or whatever, and I had a copy of… of…
• 22:47
  Tad Eggleston: World's Finest with Batman and Superman, and, and, like, so each of those had heroes, and I was debating, you know, multiple heroes, and I was debating, and then I saw The Secret Wars number 1, and it's like, I know it's more expensive, Dad, but it's got them all!
• 23:00
  Doug Wagner: It's got all of them in it, yeah. That's what we did. We basically did our zombie misfit version of Secret Wars.
• 23:08
  Tad Eggleston: I love it. I love it! And, and, Edgar, I hope you're… you're planning on ordering the Murder Chickens card game, because I just checked, and I didn't… I didn't actually order it in my, my Kickstarter, so I'm gonna need to buy it from you.
• 23:24
  Edgar Ramos: Well, no, and the Kickstarter, I think you can't order from the Kickstarter anymore, so I'm gonna see if Clover has it.
• 23:30
  Tad Eggleston: Well, Clover does have it for pre-sale already, and I know Clover distributes through Lunar, so just keep an eye out on the catalog.
• 23:39
  Edgar Ramos: I will be in Utah next week.
• 23:42
  Doug Wagner: What!
• 23:44
  Edgar Ramos: If you're in Utah, I will be in your area out there.
• 23:46
  Tad Eggleston: You're at the con next week, aren't you, Doug?
• 23:49
  Doug Wagner: Dude, are you coming to FanX?
• 23:50
  Edgar Ramos: Yep, I'm presenting.
• 23:52
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, dude, I'll be… I live right down the street from it, so yeah, of course I'll be there.
• 23:56
  Tad Eggleston: So, so you have to be on one of his panels now.
• 23:59
  Doug Wagner: Luckily, I'm not in any panels.
• 24:02
  Tad Eggleston: He will completely rewrite one of his panels to analyze you on stage in front of an audience.
• 24:11
  Doug Wagner: Only if there's a couch.
• 24:13
  Edgar Ramos: Of course!
• 24:13
  Tad Eggleston: You know? Don't, don't challenge him.
• 24:17
  Doug Wagner: That's true.
• 24:19
  Edgar Ramos: You know what? Then you can write a story about it later, you know?
• 24:24
  Edgar Ramos: He'll delve deep into 5-year-old Doug, I promise.
• 24:28
  Edgar Ramos: I want to meet 5-year-old Doug, I bet you he's pretty cool.
• 24:32
  Edgar Ramos: If you, if you have, if you have any of those copies, you know, bring them with. I'll, I'll take them off your hands, but otherwise, I'll go to Clover. But yeah, I'd love to see you there. I look forward to it. I've never been to the Utah Con, so…
• 24:43
  Edgar Ramos: I don't know how it is, but Utah in and of itself, I love, so…
• 24:47
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 24:47
  Edgar Ramos: I can't wait to see, so it's our first time presenting out there, so it'll be fun. It'll definitely be fun.
• 24:53
  Tad Eggleston: I have… Go ahead.
• 24:57
  Edgar Ramos: Sorry.
• 24:57
  Edgar Ramos: It's just me and the wife, no kids.
• 25:00
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow!
• 25:01
  Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I know.
• 25:02
  Tad Eggleston: Even the kids behind, even?
• 25:04
  Edgar Ramos: the, the,
• 25:06
  Tad Eggleston: Does that include Lee? You're leaving…
• 25:08
  Edgar Ramos: No, you're leaving.
• 25:09
  Tad Eggleston: all of the kids behind?
• 25:11
  Edgar Ramos: will be there, so we're gonna go. So it'll be fun. It'll definitely be fun. I look forward to actually being there in person with you.
• 25:19
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, that'll be awesome. I'm looking forward to that, too.
• 25:21
  Tad Eggleston: Hit him up for dinner, Doug.
• 25:23
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 25:24
  Tad Eggleston: He's always taking people to dinner.
• 25:26
  Edgar Ramos: My husband to have you for dinner as long as you don't write a negative story about me.
• 25:31
  Doug Wagner: It's not like I don't… you've seen me, I…
• 25:34
  Tad Eggleston: By negative, he means, like, it's okay if you kill the zombie version of him, just don't say anything about his mother.
• 25:42
  Edgar Ramos: Look, I'm still waiting for the psychologist biker, you know, like… I'm telling you, it'll be a hit, you know, like…
• 25:51
  Edgar Ramos: I'm just… what do I know? I don't know comics well enough. If you write a bad story about him, I'll give you McDonald's whenever I see you.
• 25:59
  Edgar Ramos: I can't take you to a nice dinner, but I can get you some fries whenever you'd like.
• 26:04
  Edgar Ramos: You know?
• 26:05
  Edgar Ramos: So where do you see yourself going from here?
• 26:09
  Doug Wagner: Oh man, I mean, that's always the toughest question.
• 26:13
  Doug Wagner: you know, I would like to see myself, you know, continuing to create more and more books. Typically what I'll do, though, is I found… and I found this, you know, it was one of these life coach gurus online a couple, you know, last year, and one of the things he suggested is instead of trying to, you know, because the creatives, we can get stuck into what's the next project.
• 26:32
  Doug Wagner: What's the next project? What's the next project?
• 26:35
  Doug Wagner: And what he said is, like, start by envisioning the end of the year, look at your table, and see what's on it.
• 26:43
  Doug Wagner: And so, what's really cool about that is it helped me plan this year, and probably that's why I went into my more successful years writing. You know, I'm kind of doing the same thing for next year, of like, okay, here's the 3 or 4 books that I want to come out next year.
• 26:55
  Doug Wagner: And so, you know, obviously Daniel and I are always going to continue to do books together. We already have another one in the bag, and we just started another… another book.
• 27:04
  Doug Wagner: And
• 27:05
  Edgar Ramos: Are we gonna get a piece of that one?
• 27:07
  Doug Wagner: What's that?
• 27:08
  Edgar Ramos: Are we gonna get a hint on that one?
• 27:09
  Doug Wagner: I mean, I can tell you that it's in the plastic verse, so, you know, like…
• 27:14
  Edgar Ramos: Would it be related to any other books in the plastic? That alone made my day right there.
• 27:20
  Edgar Ramos: I'm good.
• 27:22
  Doug Wagner: I mean, all the books are related in the plastic verse, you just gotta look hard enough.
• 27:27
  Edgar Ramos: So there's no sequels or prequels, it's something different?
• 27:30
  Doug Wagner: You know, I can't give too much away.
• 27:33
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, you know, we used to call them the material books, and we had the plastic, and we had the vinyl, and then the plush, so we're still waiting for, like, wood, iron.
• 27:44
  Tad Eggleston: Rubber.
• 27:47
  Edgar Ramos: Hey, I got a plan. Doug, I'm taking you out to dinner, and whether you drink or not, you're drinking, and we're gonna have a long conversation then afterwards.
• 27:56
  Doug Wagner: Okay!
• 27:58
  Tad Eggleston: I'm gonna record it, and I'm gonna put… no, no, I wouldn't do that to you.
• 28:04
  Edgar Ramos: I mean, how long have you and, Daniel been working together? Because I, I know of at least, like, 5 or 6 projects y'all have done, but I mean,
• 28:12
  Edgar Ramos: How long has, have y'all been cooking together?
• 28:15
  Doug Wagner: Man, it's almost been 20 years now.
• 28:18
  Edgar Ramos: Wow.
• 28:18
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, we've been pretty much working non-stop together for almost 20 years.
• 28:23
  Edgar Ramos: That's a great collaboration. Wow. 20 years! That's awesome.
• 28:27
  Doug Wagner: That's not normal.
• 28:29
  Edgar Ramos: Strangle me next week, so, like, 20 years is impressive to me.
• 28:33
  Doug Wagner: Dude, we just met, like, he sent us, samples to Kevin Gardner at 12 Gauge.
• 28:39
  Doug Wagner: Kevin sent those to Brian Stelfrys, who he and I were sharing office space at the time. Brian printed them out and brought them over to me and said, you need to work with this guy.
• 28:46
  Doug Wagner: So I reached out to him over email, and we started working, and we've been working together ever since.
• 28:52
  Edgar Ramos: Wow, I mean, that's awesome, man. I mean, were you guys, like, thrilled that plastic ended up being such a…
• 28:59
  Edgar Ramos: kind of overnight hit that you guys got to, like, do more crazy stuff like that together. I imagine just to do one series where you've got a guy who's in love with a sex doll and loves jelly donuts. I just… just putting out issue one, you're probably like, okay, we don't need to do anymore, we did that one, that's great.
• 29:16
  Edgar Ramos: But, you know, I'm sure getting to continue doing that and other books like that was, like, a thrill.
• 29:21
  Doug Wagner: I mean, dude, that was a dream come true, like, I've told people plastic changed my life, because that's the first time, I think.
• 29:26
  Doug Wagner: honestly, if I'm being honest with myself, that I would… it was completely my voice. Like, everything else I was writing was kind of like me trying to immolate what the, you know, other writers in the industry were doing, because clearly they were selling books and getting jobs. So I was kind of trying to, you know, like, figure out how could I write like them.
• 29:45
  Doug Wagner: In plastic, I didn't expect anybody to buy, so it was 100% me and Daniel. You know, like, we just went 100%. And when it was a success, we went, oh, wait a minute.
• 29:54
  Doug Wagner: here's the lesson. You should be writing in your true voice, and just, like, run with what you want to write. And obviously, we've been doing it ever since.
• 30:03
  Tad Eggleston: I feel like this lesson's been taught a few times in comics, though, Doug.
• 30:07
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 30:08
  Tad Eggleston: Didn't Neil Adams fire Douglenkiewicz? Because he's like, stop being Neil Adams, be Bill Sienkiewicz.
• 30:19
  Doug Wagner: I mean, it's… it's…
• 30:21
  Doug Wagner: You know, it's like when you're coming up, you kind of take, you know, you're looking… you're trying to look at it from a business perspective, which creatives aren't the best at. Oh, no. And we go, oh, well, if Alan Grant is successful at what he's doing, let me emulate that, and then I'll be successful.
• 30:36
  Doug Wagner: And that never works.
• 30:38
  Doug Wagner: If you're chasing a trend, you never, you never catch it.
• 30:42
  Tad Eggleston: Never get to set the trend.
• 30:44
  Doug Wagner: Right. So you have to go, let me believe in myself and my voice, and what that looks like, and just go 100% me.
• 30:52
  Tad Eggleston: And you know I'm just messing with you, because even though that lesson's been taught over and over in comics, we all have trouble with it.
• 31:00
  Doug Wagner: Hell yeah.
• 31:01
  Tad Eggleston: Like, believing that that thing that you like will actually be liked by anybody else.
• 31:08
  Doug Wagner: I know, yeah.
• 31:09
  Tad Eggleston: Much less enough people to make money is, like, always a challenge.
• 31:14
  Edgar Ramos: The hardest thing in life is believing that who you are is good enough. I mean, that's always a hard… it's a hard lesson. I always tell people, like, it's kind of like the dating world. We always send our best representative. You know, very polite, very nice, that, you know.
• 31:28
  Tad Eggleston: Wait a minute, that was how I was supposed to do it? No wonder I didn't get married until I was 30.
• 31:33
  Edgar Ramos: to know.
• 31:34
  Edgar Ramos: We always said the best, and then what happens 6 months later? The real you comes out, and then…
• 31:39
  Edgar Ramos: So I always tell people, you know, especially my parents, like, just be you. Be loved for who you are, and if they don't, that's fine. It'll be love for you. Just be you. And Doug, your voice is obviously a great voice. I mean, the you comes out in your stories, and it shows. It shows your passion, it shows your motivation. I mean, it really does show. So, I mean, you know I've been a fan of your work since, you know.
• 31:59
  Edgar Ramos: Forever here. Yeah, definitely, definitely shows, definitely.
• 32:02
  Edgar Ramos: I'd be a compliment.
• 32:04
  Tad Eggleston: Before we hit more of Narco, I need to ask, were you involved in creating the Murder Chickens game, or was there a different game group that put it together for you?
• 32:19
  Doug Wagner: This was, this is a, you know, a little bit of a crazy story, because making a game has never been on my list.
• 32:25
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 32:26
  Doug Wagner: So Hank Knultz called me on a Friday, and he, and he just, in jest, he said, you know, it'd be really cool if we had, like, an Uno-style Murder Chickens game to go along with this book.
• 32:36
  Doug Wagner: And so, as you know, 5-year-old Doug can become obsessive.
• 32:40
  Doug Wagner: And… And I wrote… I created the game over the weekend. I wrote the whole thing.
• 32:46
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 32:46
  Doug Wagner: And I pitched it to him and Daniel on Monday, and I was like, is this stupid? And they were like, no, we actually want it. So it… you know, and then I was like, okay, Daniel, well, now you get to draw all the images. You know, but yeah, I mean, it was just one of those things where.
• 32:58
  Tad Eggleston: And Daniel's like, I changed my mind, it's good.
• 33:01
  Tad Eggleston: How many cards do I have to draw?
• 33:04
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, he ended up loving it, too. He was like, yeah, this is, again, same with me. He was like, none of this was ever on my list, but, like, now that I've done it, I can't wait to hold it.
• 33:12
  Tad Eggleston: Right?
• 33:13
  Tad Eggleston: Have you guys…
• 33:14
  Edgar Ramos: done with them.
• 33:14
  Tad Eggleston: That is shipping in December.
• 33:16
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. The murder chickens.
• 33:19
  Edgar Ramos: Since you're the creators of the game, have you actually gotten to hold the cards yet, or are they, like, still kind of in the process of being manufactured?
• 33:25
  Doug Wagner: But they're still in the process of being manufactured. I do have a FOIL card that I give out at cons for anybody that signs up. Yeah, and it's the Apocalypse Inn.
• 33:33
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 33:34
  Doug Wagner: We're not…
• 33:35
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar?
• 33:36
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar, you need to get an extra one for me.
• 33:39
  Doug Wagner: I'll…
• 33:40
  Edgar Ramos: What is your…
• 33:41
  Tad Eggleston: not taking me with to Utah.
• 33:43
  Tad Eggleston: Doug, I know you generally give it to people at cons, but can you make an exception?
• 33:48
  Doug Wagner: I'll make a mistake.
• 33:48
  Tad Eggleston: or two, so I can have one.
• 33:51
  Edgar Ramos: I'm gonna go to the table, and Doug's gonna be like, I don't know who you are. Who are you?
• 33:55
  Doug Wagner: I don't know Edgar!
• 33:59
  Edgar Ramos: I'm just gonna… he's just… I'm gonna walk past… Shrugged me off.
• 34:02
  Tad Eggleston: Because I'm looking at the Apocalypse Hen card, and it looks cool.
• 34:06
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, Daniel did a great job on that one.
• 34:09
  Tad Eggleston: It allows you to redistribute all players' hands however you choose.
• 34:14
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 34:14
  Edgar Ramos: It looks, it looks cool, yeah, I'm gonna…
• 34:16
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah. I mean, we played, you know, I didn't know you could order blank, playing cards, like, nothing on them.
• 34:24
  Doug Wagner: My wife and I played this game for, like, a week.
• 34:27
  Tad Eggleston: Nice.
• 34:28
  Doug Wagner: 10, 15 times a day, kind of playtesting it to see, you know, what worked, what didn't. Because, you know, when you first come up with the rules, you're like, hey, that's a good idea.
• 34:35
  Doug Wagner: And then when you're implementing them, you're going, not so much.
• 34:40
  Tad Eggleston: That's why playtesting is important.
• 34:42
  Edgar Ramos: But, but…
• 34:43
  Tad Eggleston: I gotta share my screen so you guys can see this.
• 34:46
  Edgar Ramos: Who more than… who more times than not was the winner, Doug?
• 34:49
  Doug Wagner: Oh, my wife. My wife's always better at all games than I am.
• 34:53
  Tad Eggleston: Chainsaw Rooster.
• 34:55
  Edgar Ramos: That looks amazing.
• 34:57
  Doug Wagner: That's just the art, so that's the mock-up card. You can see it has the same abilities as Apocalypse Inn.
• 35:03
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 35:05
  Tad Eggleston: Rooster King. Yep. Yeah, yeah, these… These are… Rapid Hen. Rapid Hen?
• 35:16
  Tad Eggleston: we got some cool cards here.
• 35:20
  Tad Eggleston: I'm… I'm looking forward to…
• 35:23
  Tad Eggleston: I love a… I love a cool, dark card game. One of my favorite games. Have any of you played a game called Gloom?
• 35:32
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 35:34
  Tad Eggleston: Where the goal is to die as unhappy as possible.
• 35:42
  Edgar Ramos: I'm not playing, but I think I'm winning already, so, like, that's crazy.
• 35:47
  Edgar Ramos: messed up, man. I'll leave you my car, don't worry, we'll talk.
• 35:53
  Tad Eggleston: I'm happy, though. I'm good for you.
• 35:56
  Edgar Ramos: No complaints.
• 35:57
  Edgar Ramos: You get to see him next week. I know! If I was in Salt Lake City for that Fan Expo, I'd totally flub it. I'd be like, oh man, I loved your work on Grendel, dude, I thought you were crazy.
• 36:09
  Tad Eggleston: No, that was… that was 2 interviews ago.
• 36:12
  Tad Eggleston: And he was talking about Dracula.
• 36:14
  Edgar Ramos: Oh, okay.
• 36:18
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, you're my second Wagner this week, Doug.
• 36:21
  Doug Wagner: Really? You had Matt on earlier?
• 36:22
  Tad Eggleston: I had Matt on earlier.
• 36:23
  Doug Wagner: Really sweet.
• 36:26
  Doug Wagner: Because I was in Rose City Comic Con last weekend, and at the Dark Horse booth, he signed just before I did, so this is.
• 36:32
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 36:34
  Doug Wagner: You know, coincidental, ironic, however you want to look at it.
• 36:36
  Edgar Ramos: Is it… Or was it coincidental?
• 36:41
  Edgar Ramos: Hello!
• 36:41
  Tad Eggleston: It'd be reverse alpha if he signed right before Doug.
• 36:46
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, he signed right before me, then I came.
• 36:48
  Tad Eggleston: M comes after D.
• 36:50
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 36:51
  Edgar Ramos: Have you, have you got… Anchors looked.
• 36:53
  Tad Eggleston: Look at me funny. He had too many tacos.
• 36:56
  Edgar Ramos: Hi, guys.
• 36:58
  Edgar Ramos: What were you saying? Should you just go up to him and be like, there's too many Wagner's for one con, one of us is gonna have to go? There can be only one! There can be only one.
• 37:05
  Doug Wagner: Well, there's a problem, because Brendan Wagner was there, too.
• 37:09
  Edgar Ramos: These are very good.
• 37:11
  Doug Wagner: But…
• 37:12
  Tad Eggleston: And also, in Portland, it'd probably be Doug that had to go.
• 37:18
  Doug Wagner: Why is that?
• 37:19
  Tad Eggleston: Because that's where Matt lives, and it'd be like throwing you out in Salt Lake City.
• 37:24
  Doug Wagner: Well, I mean, it comes down to who wins the fight, right?
• 37:28
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, that's fair, that's fair.
• 37:30
  Tad Eggleston: If you're fighting…
• 37:31
  Doug Wagner: I mean, you said there can only be only one, and I mean… That's true. That's true, that's true. So…
• 37:37
  Edgar Ramos: Well, which one of us has, like, a cool studio killer dude that likes chili Donuts? I think that's me, so I went, you know?
• 37:43
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 37:46
  Edgar Ramos: Pretty, pretty easy pick there. Pretty easy pick. I think so as well.
• 37:50
  Tad Eggleston: So, this is the point of the program where we're gonna go, spoilers ahead, spoilers ahead. If you haven't read Narco, pause and go read Narco and come back.
• 38:04
  Tad Eggleston: Narco comes out in trade paperback in a couple of weeks.
• 38:09
  Edgar Ramos: October 7th. October 7th.
• 38:10
  Tad Eggleston: October 7th, and I confirmed that at Lunar as well, just in case, like, Image hadn't updated their website, so… so, Doug, it is… it is 2 weeks until…
• 38:23
  Tad Eggleston: Until Narco. I… I mean, this might be…
• 38:34
  Tad Eggleston: It's, like, right with click, click, boom, and I was a fashion serial school serial killer among my absolute favorites of your work. In part because it takes…
• 38:47
  Tad Eggleston: Some of the formula of the stuff?
• 38:50
  Tad Eggleston: that I love so much that you do, but, like.
• 38:53
  Tad Eggleston: Twists it just enough on its head to, like, REALLY fuck with you.
• 39:00
  Doug Wagner: Good.
• 39:02
  Tad Eggleston: Like… I know we talked some off-air last time, but, like.
• 39:10
  Tad Eggleston: the last time we talked about Narco, I don't think the first issue would come out, so… so I had to be really, really careful about that major twist, which is, like.
• 39:23
  Tad Eggleston: We spend a whole issue excited through this
• 39:27
  Tad Eggleston: This boy who's got narcolepsy and is… has to keep his heart rate in check, because otherwise he'll… he'll pass out.
• 39:36
  Tad Eggleston: On the spot, and there's the girl that he loves, adores, and he's finally gonna meet her for a date, and he thinks he's managed to get the whole thing so that he's not gonna pass out when she opens the door and says hello.
• 39:54
  Tad Eggleston: And you killed her before the date started.
• 39:59
  Doug Wagner: And let him watch it through a peephole.
• 40:02
  Tad Eggleston: Right!
• 40:06
  Tad Eggleston: And so… up as the prime suspect.
• 40:09
  Edgar Ramos: Nope.
• 40:10
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah!
• 40:16
  Tad Eggleston: How? How? Where did that come from?
• 40:18
  Doug Wagner: Dude, I mean…
• 40:19
  Tad Eggleston: I mean…
• 40:20
  Edgar Ramos: Is that another personal story from when you were younger? Like, you just had that bad of a first year?
• 40:26
  Doug Wagner: No, that one I don't… I didn't pull from a personal story. It was just… I mean, honestly, again, it's the, you know, when I get in the story, the muses tell me what to do.
• 40:34
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 40:35
  Doug Wagner: It's all good. It's all what I want to read, what would make me want to keep reading the book.
• 40:40
  Edgar Ramos: Not okay, don't listen to the voices in your head.
• 40:42
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, because I was about to say, like, that was a ball… like, because when I finished that first issue, there was, like, one part of me that desperately wanted to read more, and there was one part of me that wanted to take a baseball bat to your head.
• 40:56
  Doug Wagner: And dude, if I can accomplish… if I can make you that emotional about a character…
• 41:04
  Tad Eggleston: Because I'm sitting there going, I'm sitting there going, like, I've fallen in love with both of these characters.
• 41:11
  Tad Eggleston: And one of them is dead, and one of them is utterly heartbroken, and had his whole world
• 41:18
  Tad Eggleston: flipped on top of itself. What the hell are you doing to me?
• 41:24
  Tad Eggleston: Why was that necessary? We already had the interesting, oh, I've discovered that there might be a serial killer that gets away with being a serial killer, because he just copies other serial killers, so they never, never tie it together. That was an interesting premise, all by itself!
• 41:41
  Doug Wagner: Dude, it's my job to make you love people. That's, you know, that's… and my stories, and the fact that you fell in love with Jess before the end of issue one.
• 41:52
  Doug Wagner: And it had an emotional impact.
• 41:54
  Tad Eggleston: That's so sweet!
• 41:56
  Doug Wagner: Oh, she was awesome!
• 42:00
  Edgar Ramos: I think you do that well with a lot of your car, and again, as a fan of the body of work.
• 42:04
  Tad Eggleston: But he doesn't generally kill them like that.
• 42:06
  Edgar Ramos: No, he doesn't, but you know, it's…
• 42:08
  Edgar Ramos: But you know what? That… you know, what is that dist…
• 42:12
  Edgar Ramos: distance makes the heart grow fonder, or something like that? So you can just… you love her in memory, and that's good. So, because the memory will never go bad. She can never fuck it up, you know? It's always gonna stay right there. That's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of it. And in Mr. Wagner's defense, he…
• 42:29
  Edgar Ramos: did do something similar in Plush, where it already starts out, and the main guy's, like, heartbroken.
• 42:34
  Edgar Ramos: And then he finally starts being like, you know what, maybe I'll have, like, a good time, maybe I'll turn this thing around, and immediately he just stumbles into the worst thing you could imagine in an alleyway. So it's… it's not like it's unfamiliar territory.
• 42:47
  Tad Eggleston: No, no, I'm not unused to Doug, you know, fucking with me, but it still felt like next level.
• 42:55
  Doug Wagner: That's awesome. I mean, it Bonsai killed a lot of people.
• 42:59
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, but they weren't my favorites.
• 43:05
  Tad Eggleston: And they didn't directly break the heart of my other favorite!
• 43:09
  Tad Eggleston: The guy who feeds Pop-Tarts to the squirrels!
• 43:13
  Doug Wagner: Possums.
• 43:14
  Tad Eggleston: Awesome!
• 43:16
  Tad Eggleston: Even better!
• 43:20
  Edgar Ramos: I gotta… I gotta add, because I know your time is limited, I want to make sure I tell you this. I… again, the psychological depth of not just the characters, but the story is the thing that's always attracted me to work. I think it's just…
• 43:34
  Edgar Ramos: It's amazing to see, you know, I mean, as a psychologist, I sit and, like.
• 43:38
  Edgar Ramos: well, you know, did they get this right? And it's… I don't find myself questioning it as more as I find myself entertained by the depth, like, and what it is, and what it says, and what it doesn't say, and I can't wait to see where Yumi goes. And again, I haven't read issue 2 yet, so don't spoil it fully for me. I can't wait to see, like.
• 43:56
  Edgar Ramos: what this unravels, like, how far it gets, and that's what I find intriguing right now, like, I'm excited
• 44:01
  Edgar Ramos: to see it, and that's always the hallmark, outside of, you know, character development and psychological, is the wanting to go, what's next? What's happening next? And you do a fabulous job of that, and for everybody, you know, that's listening or not listening, or going to listen, is that
• 44:17
  Edgar Ramos: Yumi is definitely a read that I hope people really pick up and really start looking at that, because it's… it's already captivating on me in issue 1 right now. I can't wait to see how far it goes. If it's anything like anything else you've written.
• 44:28
  Edgar Ramos: It's… it's either gonna piss us off, make us cry, or make us laugh, you know?
• 44:32
  Doug Wagner: Well, hopefully all of those.
• 44:34
  Edgar Ramos: All three at the same time, you know?
• 44:36
  Tad Eggleston: Quick, quick question, because there's been a Yumi up on 12-gauge for a while, so is this an image publication of that comic that's been done for a while, or is there another Yumi story out there?
• 44:52
  Doug Wagner: In both Narco and Yumi, 12-gauge kick-started them.
• 44:57
  Tad Eggleston: Kickstarted them.
• 44:57
  Doug Wagner: Yep, kick-started them, and then Image said, hey, is it okay if we turn these into miniseries? And I'm like, of course.
• 45:03
  Doug Wagner: contracted.
• 45:05
  Tad Eggleston: That's what I thought.
• 45:06
  Tad Eggleston: That's even cooler, when you can go get paid again for something that's done.
• 45:14
  Edgar Ramos: I mean, so far, I think Yumi's doing pretty well. I mean, at the other store where we… that we run. I mean, we sold out same day. I mean, people are obviously like, oh, Wagner's doing another one? Okay, let's go… We sold out here, and I still have people asking for issue one. The same at the other store. And finding hard to get copies of it. So, if you have copies there, I'll take them all.
• 45:33
  Tad Eggleston: I, I, I, I, I think it went to second print.
• 45:37
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. Ubi number one did go to second print.
• 45:39
  Tad Eggleston: So…
• 45:40
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Edgar Ramos: Yeah. Yeah, people are asking for it, so if… any accolades to you? Yeah, it's sold out at two shops out here in the Midwest, so… I only have people asking for the first print, so that's always a bit of a problem. Yeah, everybody wants one print, yeah.
• 45:55
  Edgar Ramos: I want to be there when it started, man, I can't help you.
• 46:00
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, did, did, did you, I mean, that just reminds me, because there were all sorts of people who were upset with the Santos sisters.
• 46:07
  Tad Eggleston: Book went, like, by the time it was truly available, it was the second and the third print.
• 46:13
  Tad Eggleston: And people are like, but I want the first print, and they're sitting there going, the first print was $300 a year and a half ago! Yeah.
• 46:23
  Doug Wagner: It's a…
• 46:23
  Tad Eggleston: I want for you to get the first print!
• 46:26
  Doug Wagner: I mean, that's always, good news and bad news at the same time.
• 46:30
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 46:31
  Doug Wagner: Like, selling out's fantastic. Right. You know, you get some press from it, people actually go, wait a minute, I should check this book out, you know, get a little FOMO. At the same time, you're like, man, I wish we would have printed more.
• 46:42
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 46:42
  Doug Wagner: You know, because I don't want anybody to miss out. Right. You know, like, so yeah, it's a tough… it's a tough game. You know, you guys know this as well as anybody, comics as.
• 46:49
  Tad Eggleston: Hell yeah.
• 46:50
  Edgar Ramos: But it's…
• 46:51
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
• 46:51
  Edgar Ramos: It's a good game, because it's better to be left wanting more than going, alright, now I got 55 on the shelf, or 55 in storage.
• 47:00
  Edgar Ramos: Better… better to be left wanted, you know?
• 47:02
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, yeah.
• 47:03
  Edgar Ramos: I think it's… you're in a good spot, right?
• 47:06
  Doug Wagner: I don't want Edgar calling me going, hey, I bought 55 of these, and I have 57.
• 47:13
  Tad Eggleston: Isn't that the way it used to work with the, the newsstands? Particularly the mobbed-up newsstands during the return era?
• 47:23
  Tad Eggleston: where they'd give the affidavit that said they were… that they destroyed, you know, 600 copies out of the 400 copies of the Marvel comics that they'd gotten last week.
• 47:34
  Edgar Ramos: What would I know about the mob, Tad? You know, that's pretty much my, you know, I'm… you know… I've never heard anything about those wonderful people before, not at all.
• 47:47
  Tad Eggleston: Alright, I know you're running short on time, so let's roll into some closing questions.
• 47:53
  Tad Eggleston: The newer one, I think you've had to answer this before, so you get to answer it. You might be the first person that gets to answer it for a second time.
• 48:04
  Tad Eggleston: I've been doing this podcast for, like, 5 years now, and I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone. Like, the number of people like yourself, who I consider friends, not just…
• 48:15
  Tad Eggleston: people that have their names on artifacts that I adore, you know? The experiences I've gotten to have, like.
• 48:25
  Tad Eggleston: the life that I have right now, if you told me even 6 years ago that this was gonna be my life, I would have been like, who the fuck are you kidding?
• 48:36
  Tad Eggleston: But I find that that's very true of, like, everybody who…
• 48:41
  Tad Eggleston: devotes a large portion of their life to comics. They wind up having…
• 48:46
  Tad Eggleston: Crazy, surreal experiences with people that they never expected to meet, or… or the fan that just makes them weep.
• 48:55
  Tad Eggleston: or whatever. So I've started… I've started collecting those. Tell me… tell me a story. Tell me about a time that you still look back and kind of pinch yourself and go, was that really Doug Wagner that got to experience that?
• 49:11
  Doug Wagner: There's a lot of that story, because I'm always…
• 49:14
  Doug Wagner: super grateful, you know, I mean?
• 49:16
  Doug Wagner: it took me a while to get into comics, and that's all I ever wanted to do since I was 17. So, as you can imagine, like, being where I'm at now is… I don't take it for granted. You know, I think about it every day and go, man, I'm super happy.
• 49:29
  Doug Wagner: with everything I've been able to accomplish, and actually, I'm writing comics for a living now. That's just amazing. I think one of the cra- you know, there's a couple of crazy ones that you just don't…
• 49:39
  Doug Wagner: Like, you never forget. Like, Machine Gun Kelly got on his podcast, And pulled out plastic.
• 49:47
  Doug Wagner: when it was coming out, and said, I just bought this book, this is my new favorite book.
• 49:54
  Doug Wagner: And to have somebody like Machine Gun Kelly, you know, they're celebrities, they're just the normal people, but, like, to have somebody like Machine Gun Kelly go on his podcast.
• 50:02
  Doug Wagner: And say, hey, go pick up this comic, when his podcast isn't about comics.
• 50:07
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 50:08
  Doug Wagner: was surreal to me. Like, I still don't… I still don't know how to process that.
• 50:11
  Doug Wagner: Right. And then we can even talk about, like, recently, Narco 1 selling out, and it kind of caught up in that speculator boom, or whatever it was, you know, with, like, White Sky and Dork and, you know, the other amazing books that got caught up in it.
• 50:22
  Tad Eggleston: Right?
• 50:23
  Doug Wagner: Like, hey, you sold out. You sold out before the book came out, and you're like, wait a minute, the book isn't out, how am I sold out?
• 50:30
  Doug Wagner: like, those kind of stories and experiences are just surreal, and you know, you kind of have to pinch yourself and then go, hey, now I need to keep typing. You know, like… Yeah, those are the two that immediately come to mind.
• 50:43
  Tad Eggleston: Those, those are good ones. I didn't… I didn't realize that you'd gotten that level of,
• 50:49
  Tad Eggleston: of… of exposure on… on plastic, that's… that's cool.
• 50:55
  Tad Eggleston: Josh Johnson has been going around to comic shops in whatever town he's in on his current comedy tour.
• 51:03
  Doug Wagner: I'm just…
• 51:03
  Tad Eggleston: That's… yeah, he was. And that's kind of… and, like…
• 51:09
  Tad Eggleston: All of the places that he's gone so far, that are places that I've gone, he's also managed to pick my favorite shops, even if they're not the most popular ones, which has me go, oh, wow, this guy's, like, actually a comic guy, and how big of a deal is it for Odd Mart in Minneapolis, for Comic College, for…
• 51:28
  Tad Eggleston: Whatever, to… to have…
• 51:31
  Tad Eggleston: You know, and for that matter, he didn't make a big deal out of it, but, like, when he went to… he didn't, like, read off the titles, but I remember when he went to… he went to the drawn and Quarterly shop while he was in Montreal, and you just…
• 51:46
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, there's a stack of books, and you're like, you know that there's somebody who's not a comic person who's, like, pausing it and looking at every title.
• 51:56
  Tad Eggleston: So yeah, I love it. I love it when the people that aren't com… er, aren't… known.
• 52:03
  Tad Eggleston: for their comics connections, who are making content that's not about comics, like Amplify Comics. I didn't know that about Machine Gun Kelly. I suddenly like him more than I did before.
• 52:18
  Tad Eggleston: The final question, and you've answered this 7 times before, but I don't remember what you've said, so, you know, you might get away with giving me the same answer as you have before. Tell me something you love.
• 52:32
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic, but we don't have rules.
• 52:35
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably storytelling, but again, with the rules. But something that you love.
• 52:41
  Tad Eggleston: That not enough people around you have experienced, and you really want them to, so that you have more people to talk about it with.
• 52:49
  Doug Wagner: I just had a guy ask me about, like.
• 52:52
  Doug Wagner: Give me… give me a comic that nobody really is familiar with that had a huge impact on your life and your writing.
• 52:59
  Doug Wagner: And it took me a while, because obviously all the classics come, right? Watchmen, you know.
• 53:05
  Doug Wagner: yeah, Uncanny X-Men, you know, the things that really impacted me. And I found one on my shelf and went, oh my god, I can't believe I haven't brought this up yet. It's called The Last American.
• 53:15
  Doug Wagner: Which is written by Alan Grant.
• 53:18
  Doug Wagner: And it's very… almost nobody knows of it, and it is one of the best-written four-issue miniseries I've ever read in my life.
• 53:28
  Doug Wagner: And… It happens during the Cold War.
• 53:32
  Doug Wagner: And it… and for a month, I had fever dreams about this book while I was reading it. It was that impactful on me.
• 53:40
  Edgar Ramos: Wow.
• 53:40
  Doug Wagner: Symbolism and everything that's inside this book is just off the charts cool. And it's… it's kind of a statement about American culture.
• 53:49
  Tad Eggleston: John Wagner and Alan Grant.
• 53:51
  Doug Wagner: That's John Wagner and Alan Grant.
• 53:53
  Edgar Ramos: Man, these Wagner's!
• 53:55
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 53:56
  Doug Wagner: So, it's… it's a common.
• 53:57
  Tad Eggleston: Going way back, this is… this is epic comedy.
• 54:01
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 54:01
  Edgar Ramos: Oh, okay.
• 54:03
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, Mike McMahon on the art?
• 54:07
  Doug Wagner: The commentary on American Society, written by British…
• 54:10
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 54:11
  Doug Wagner: And it's… and it's really, really something I think everybody should check out.
• 54:15
  Doug Wagner: dark. It's very dark, but like…
• 54:19
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it's just one of those books that… that everybody should read. It's up there as one of my top 10 best written comics ever.
• 54:26
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah…
• 54:27
  Edgar Ramos: that British commentary on American life during the Cold War, well, surely they'll have nice things to say. Of course! It's definitely a positive read! Yeah.
• 54:34
  Doug Wagner: And I mean, you know, I just re-read it, last month, and it's kind of, scary how true it still rings.
• 54:42
  Edgar Ramos: Okay, now it's not… now it's gonna go on my pull list here.
• 54:46
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, no, I'm going to find out right now whether it's still in print, Edgar.
• 54:51
  Doug Wagner: It's tough, yeah, you gotta, you gotta kind.
• 54:53
  Tad Eggleston: It looks like Rebellion reissued it in 2017, so the question is whether…
• 55:00
  Tad Eggleston: Whether that's too early for it to have gotten to lunar.
• 55:04
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Edgar Ramos: I'll look in my backpack. I mean, if it's at Rebellion, the question becomes, is it gonna get here in 2027 or 2028? That's the… There's that, too.
• 55:14
  Edgar Ramos: Absolutely.
• 55:15
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, it's not currently available through Lunar.
• 55:20
  Doug Wagner: But that's, you know, if you're asking me for something, I love that.
• 55:22
  Tad Eggleston: No, no, that, that, that, that's a…
• 55:25
  Tad Eggleston: I love… I love it when people manage to come up with stuff that I'm like, oh, I know that, or I'm not like, oh, I know that, or…
• 55:34
  Tad Eggleston: or even…
• 55:36
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, I know that, but I haven't read it, that sort of thing. Like, this one I don't know, and… and I want to.
• 55:42
  Edgar Ramos: I think he stumped us all.
• 55:44
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 55:45
  Edgar Ramos: Well, there's…
• 55:46
  Doug Wagner: The interesting story behind that is Alan Grant and John Wagner were really good friends until they started writing this book.
• 55:52
  Edgar Ramos: Oh, man.
• 55:54
  Doug Wagner: And then they fell apart, and so Alan Grant wrote the first two issues, and John Wagner wrote the second two issues.
• 55:59
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, wow.
• 56:00
  Doug Wagner: Like, it's that… like, you can tell they put the story above their, you know, their breakup, and it's… no… you don't notice a difference.
• 56:09
  Edgar Ramos: They pulled the Beatles, but with one comic.
• 56:11
  Doug Wagner: Exactly.
• 56:14
  Edgar Ramos: Okay.
• 56:14
  Tad Eggleston: That's…
• 56:16
  Edgar Ramos: It's crazy to imagine that Cold War being the Yoko Ono that separates us, you know?
• 56:24
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, that's, like, one part amazing, and one part just… just… just… Sad.
• 56:37
  Edgar Ramos: Well, it's at least a story that you'll remember. I mean, I remember that.
• 56:39
  Tad Eggleston: Yup!
• 56:40
  Edgar Ramos: broke up that two dudes friendship? Yeah, it was pretty good.
• 56:43
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, so you won't be able to use it next time you're on.
• 56:46
  Doug Wagner: No, huh.
• 56:46
  Tad Eggleston: Because it's sunk in, man. You'll have to come up with a different…
• 56:52
  Tad Eggleston: But, yeah, no, I'm gonna be… gonna be tracking that down.
• 56:56
  Tad Eggleston: Probably sometime over this weekend, because you've sold it. You've sold it well, Doug.
• 57:03
  Tad Eggleston: As always, it's so good to have you back. I would say I'm jealous that Edgar gets to meet you before I do, but you were at C2E2 a couple years.
• 57:14
  Doug Wagner: Maddie, thank you.
• 57:15
  Tad Eggleston: So we got to hang out a little bit at your table. But he's gonna get to have a meal with you before I do. I can feel that already, and that just… you already had your Chicago dinner plans.
• 57:26
  Edgar Ramos: I'm getting him drunk, and we're gonna…
• 57:28
  Tad Eggleston: I reached out, like… see, this is the advantage of going to his hometown. I reached out, like, a month and a half in advance, and he already had his dinner plans for the entire weekend.
• 57:39
  Tad Eggleston: But when he's… when he's at home, he doesn't have to plan that way.
• 57:45
  Edgar Ramos: I look forward to, to at least seeing you at the con, and
• 57:48
  Tad Eggleston: So, yeah. When are you coming?
• 57:50
  Doug Wagner: When are you coming in, and when are you leaving?
• 57:52
  Edgar Ramos: I'm getting up there probably either late Wednesday night, probably Wednesday, Wednesday night. Okay. Sunday.
• 57:59
  Doug Wagner: Okay, cool. Yeah, we'll figure something out.
• 58:01
  Edgar Ramos: Yeah, but either way, I'd love to see you just, you know, shake your hand, I think that'd be great.
• 58:04
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. Good pleasure.
• 58:05
  Edgar Ramos: You can meet my better half.
• 58:07
  Tad Eggleston: So, so Doug Wagner and Psychocomicology will be at Fan Expo Salt Lake City next weekend, which is, what, the, the…
• 58:17
  Doug Wagner: 24th.
• 58:18
  Edgar Ramos: 426.
• 58:19
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 58:20
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, the 25th to the 27th, or 24th to the 27th? Yeah, we're… Doesn't…
• 58:27
  Doug Wagner: We don't do.
• 58:27
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, you're in Utah, so you don't do Sundays.
• 58:30
  Doug Wagner: Don't do Sundays.
• 58:31
  Tad Eggleston: Gotcha, so the 24th through the 26th.
• 58:35
  Tad Eggleston: I should've… I should've thought of that.
• 58:37
  Doug Wagner: Why would you? It's the only state I've ever been in that does it.
• 58:41
  Tad Eggleston: Well, but Utah has some reputation, you know?
• 58:45
  Edgar Ramos: Well, I have to skate.
• 58:46
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, just a little bit.
• 58:48
  Edgar Ramos: It has a reputation, that's for sure. Well, Doug, it was really nice getting to talk to you for the first time. It's like a long-time fan and reader, and I guess if there's one thing to come away with, it's that if you do go out to dinner with Edgar, bury 5-year-old Doug down deep.
• 59:03
  Edgar Ramos: Don't reflect that.
• 59:05
  Doug Wagner: Hey, dude, I'm… I'm not worried about 5-year-old Doug at all. It's 59-year-old Doug.
• 59:11
  Doug Wagner: So, it's…
• 59:12
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, from what I've heard, you might want to worry about, like, 20-something Doug, too.
• 59:17
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, there's some 20-something dogs Yeah.
• 59:21
  Tad Eggleston: to really worry about 20-something Edgar.
• 59:25
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 59:25
  Edgar Ramos: That one was bad, that one.
• 59:27
  Doug Wagner: Edgar.
• 59:27
  Tad Eggleston: Where are you flying in?
• 59:29
  Edgar Ramos: I'm driving up there.
• 59:30
  Doug Wagner: Oh!
• 59:31
  Tad Eggleston: See, that's even worse, because that means that he won't be checked for arm… er, weapons to get on the plane.
• 59:39
  Edgar Ramos: I will be on a car ride with my wife, just me and my wife, but no kids. I'm looking forward to it, to be quite honest.
• 59:44
  Tad Eggleston: Like, yeah. Nice. Well, yeah, no, car rides are way more fun without kids in the car.
• 59:49
  Tad Eggleston: I love kids, I even love your kids, but…
• 59:53
  Tad Eggleston: But I was glad that when we went out to CXC together, I drove separately.
• 59:58
  Edgar Ramos: I hear ya. I mean, they're okay. Yeah. Well, Doug, always a pleasure. I look forward to next, next week, yeah. Oh my god, yeah.
• 1:00:04
  Doug Wagner: Dude, yeah, it'll be soon, yeah.
• 1:00:06
  Edgar Ramos: What?
• 1:00:07
  Edgar Ramos: Loyd, love the work.
• 1:00:08
  Doug Wagner: As always, it's a pleasure, guys. Thanks for having me on the show again.
• 1:00:11
  Tad Eggleston: Yep, for 22 Panels, this has been Doug Wagner, and we will see you after the next page.