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300. The Thoughts New Moms Are Too Afraid to Say Out Loud | Kristin Mize · Badass Confidence Coach | Your Personal Trainer for Your Mind

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, welcome back to the Bed Ask Confidence Coach podcast.
0:04
SPEAKER_00: Today I have a guest, which is not something, as most of you know, I don't have many guests these days.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: So when I do have somebody on, you know that I am very much interested in them and that they have an expertise in something that I really don't.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: And this week has, well, actually the past several weeks, I think our nation, the United States, has been sort of watching, not sort of, but watching this case of the Lindsay Clancy trial, the mom who in 2023 was going through a postpartum psychotic episode or episodes and murdered her three children.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: So I heard Kristen speaking on another podcast about this, and she did a really great job of talking about postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and psychosis, the differences.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to have her on because I think that we as a country and as a world really don't understand this postpartum period and mental health in women.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: We just don't understand it.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about it enough.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's high time we start illuminating that time in women's lives and start to get a little bit more educated about what it is that some women go through and the legitimacy of it.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: And so welcome, Kristen to the podcast.
1:22
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's get started.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: So I first heard you on the another podcast with a lawyer who I think you're friends with in real life.
1:36
SPEAKER_00: And you did a great job of talking about what it was that you see in your practice with women with postpartum depression, anxiety, and psychosis.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: So can you share with us, just to start off, what is postpartum depression anxiety and what's what is psychosis in women after having children?
1:54
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
1:54
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of times people refer to it as I have postpartum.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: And the truth of the matter is we typically have just understood it to be depression.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: Postpartum anxiety is coming more a part of the conversation, which is great, but there are multiple facets of a postpartum mood disorder.
2:11
SPEAKER_02: First being it can happen during pregnancy.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: So that can be misleading.
2:16
SPEAKER_02: So we call this perinatal mood disorders for a reason.
2:19
SPEAKER_02: It can happen through pregnancy and the postpartum period and beyond.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: And postpartum period is not six to eight weeks.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: It can be a year plus.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: And so programs even treat up to two years postpartum because of that, that unique transition period in your hormones, in your mood, in life transitions.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: So it really runs way more of a gamut than you know 12 weeks after having a baby.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: So there's that piece.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: So what does what is the difference between the postpartum blues, which I heard all the time when I was having kids, versus depression?
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And what's anxiety?
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about depression, anxiety versus postpartum blues before we get into psychosis.
3:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: So about 80% of women report having postpartum blues or are likely to experience postpartum blues.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: It is a short-lived window of time.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: It is no longer than two weeks typically.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: And you might feel sad, you might have a hard time connecting with your newborn.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: You can have bouts of crying, even questioning, did I do the right thing by having a baby?
3:26
SPEAKER_02: These are all normal thoughts to experience.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: But sometimes they, you know, they're they're hard to say out loud to people because this is supposed to be the best time of your life, especially if this is what you wanted.
3:38
SPEAKER_02: And I'm using quotes because I hear that a lot when partners are struggling to understand my clients.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, I thought this is what you wanted.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Why are you upset?
3:47
SPEAKER_02: So it can be very normal, but it does not last longer than about two weeks.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
3:53
SPEAKER_02: And be anything beyond two weeks, and it doesn't have to be the first two weeks after you have a baby.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: It can come within, they say, about first six weeks.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: And bluesy is more like you're still able to get up and function and do what you need to do to take care of your baby.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: And so again, it doesn't really interfere with your daily living.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: When we're talking about postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, these are more persistent symptoms.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: They can be a bit more severe.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: So depression is very negative thought process, can be very tearful.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: Some depression is a motivation, like don't want to get out of bed, don't want to take care of the children, in lack is lack of interest in things they used to be interested in.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: And honestly, postpartum depression is again anything that lasts over two weeks in a period of time and is again more interfering with the individual's ability to think, you know, clearly, objectively, and to sometimes even function.
4:51
SPEAKER_02: We'll see moms not wanting to take care of themselves and a really difficult time taking care of the baby.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
4:57
SPEAKER_02: So more depressive, like I, you know, I'm a terrible mom.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm messed up, I'm failing.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: Very depressive thoughts in nature.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: But but where we also see, and this is what gets tricky, is because then people say, Well, I don't have that.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: I'm worried all the time.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: I can't turn my brain off.
5:17
SPEAKER_02: I can't stop thinking about the what ifs, or am I doing a good job, or am I, you know, doing this the right way?
5:23
SPEAKER_02: And so that is really postpartum anxiety.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: By the way, there's no official diagnosis in the diagnostic manual that we use.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: So this is why it's so confusing for people.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: We just have to go based on report and symptomology, as clients tell us.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: So anxiety is excessive worrying.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: We either you're stuck on the same thought over and over again.
5:45
SPEAKER_02: We call that ruminating.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: Your thoughts can be racing, they're all over the place.
5:49
SPEAKER_02: You know, whether it doesn't even have to do with baby necessarily, it can have to do with all the tasks involved with caring for baby or all of it can be worrying about other people, not it can be worrying about yourself.
6:00
SPEAKER_02: What if something terrible happens to me?
6:02
SPEAKER_02: And it's really just again categorized by excessive worry to the point that it becomes difficulty to function where it's hard to focus on any one thing and be present in that moment because you're constantly having this, you know, noise in the background.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, and here's the thing is I don't think even with even the maybe even the blues, I don't think women talk about it.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: We don't talk about this with our mothers, our mothers-in-law, our sisters, our friends.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: I think there's so much embarrassment and shame around this for women.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, I'll admit, I haven't thought about this.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: This, this uh Lindsay Clancy case brought it up for me.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: I interviewed a father and a daughter in 2023, right after this happened on the podcast, whose wife had postpartum psychosis.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: And the daughter was in her 20s, and she was the child that was born when her mother went through this postpartum psychosis.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, she's not here with us today.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: She wasn't here with us in 23 because of what happened with our mental health.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Very sad story.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: And they came on because they wanted to talk and just get the word out about so postpartum psychosis is a thing.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so we can talk about that a little bit.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: That's another category.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: I know after I had my first kid, I was so I here's I worked in maternal and child health.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I worked in the PEED, I worked in PEADS ICU.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: I was around babies all the time.
7:30
SPEAKER_00: I used to help the nurses when they got overwhelmed.
7:32
SPEAKER_00: We had full a full unit and overflow, feed babies, I'd give bottles.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I kind of had baby fever.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Was so excited to have this baby, had this baby, and was like, What the hell did I do?
7:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't want this, I don't want this life.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: I had fantasies of leaving, of escaping.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: There were times when I felt I almost say it.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I can I just like throw out the window.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like horrified by my own thoughts, but I'm like, shut up, kid, shut up, stop screaming, stop crying.
8:03
SPEAKER_00: And I had support, I had family there, and it got really bad where to the point at night.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: And I can't believe this because my father was a physician.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: No one knew how to help me.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: And everybody thought it was just the blues, you'll get past.
8:16
SPEAKER_00: And my husband would say, We know you, you'll get back to your old self.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: You got this, Anna, you got this.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know if I have this.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: This is, yeah, and I don't think I want this life.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: And so I would sit in bed at night, like with sweating, and I didn't tell anybody this.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I'd sweat, I my heart was palpating, I had sweaty palms.
8:35
SPEAKER_00: I was having panic attacks, which I'd never had in my life.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And it happened about three days after I brought the baby home and had a C-section.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: And they was, oh, it's because you had a C-section.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: No, I went back to work at three months.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Thank God I had a mother-in-law who wouldn't leave my side.
8:51
SPEAKER_00: She she they they saw something and moved in with us.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: And they said, She's got to stop nursing.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: She can't do that 4 a.m.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: feed.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: Let her get her sleep.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: So I went to bed at 10 and woke up at six.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: That was game-changing.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: So I was getting eight, seven to eight hours of sleep.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: And I let my milk, I have milk all over the bed every single morning.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: I'd wake up.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: But, you know, thank God from my mother-in-law because she's like, Anna, who cares?
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Just we'll, we'll do, we'll take care of that.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: You just feed right at six.
9:17
SPEAKER_00: You'll feed the baby right at six, which I did.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: If I didn't have that help, I don't know what would have happened to me.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: I went back to work at three months.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: I still felt really down and depressed and just out of sorts.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: I was not myself.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: It took me at least, Kristen, probably at least six months to feel like myself again.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: And I told myself with my second two years later, I wouldn't, and I realized I had postpartum, some sort of anxiety or maybe a depression.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And I told myself, I will never go through that again.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: I got educated and I said, I won't nurse.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: I will go.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: Here's me, a therapist working in maternal and child health, not in therapy, didn't go see a psychiatrist, had shame and stigma around it for myself.
9:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of embarrassed to ever admit this to people.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And I told myself, I will, I will stop nursing, I will go to therapy, I will get a psychiatrist, I'm going on meds.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: I will never, if I can help it, feel that way again.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't tell anybody, like no one.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: And and that's that's that's your one case.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: And how many women, and you know the field, how many who don't even, but you know, a similar experience happened to me.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: Mine happened during my pregnancy.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: I experienced a really severe bout of perinatal depression.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: And again, working as a therapist, I did not work with mothers and children at the time, but you know, I didn't know what was wrong with me.
10:38
SPEAKER_02: My family didn't know what was wrong with me.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: But thank God for my husband and sister had like, you know, got me into my doctor and it was game-changing from there.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: But it was, I was going to work every day.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: I was acting, you know, taking care of people every day, taking care of my two-year-old every day, at the, you know, and then coming home and completely wishing, like I just had thoughts of like, they'd probably be better off without me because I'm terrible mother.
11:03
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, so it's the to your point, you, you know, probably had a history of handling it all prior to having this happen to you.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's what a lot of women and where a lot of women get missed is we don't have to worry about the strong ones, the high achieving ones, the perfectionists who take care of everything and make it look good on Instagram.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: And that's the problem because so many of them we miss are actually just barely hanging on on the inside.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: And what strikes me is that this was your second.
11:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it was a twin pregnancy, right?
11:39
SPEAKER_02: I had first pregnancy postpartum dream.
11:41
SPEAKER_02: That's why we're like, we can do this again.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I think it was just a lot of different situational things happening, hormones, of course, and yeah, and so I did.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: I started medication during my pregnancy, which back then was, you know, because the twins are going to be 15 now, but I mean it it it saved my life.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: So, and I'm just so forever grateful for again my husband, my sister, my family stepping in because yeah, it it didn't, it may have not ended as well.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: So, and now I'm you know healthy.
12:12
SPEAKER_02: I was great, I was able to have that as a cushion.
12:14
SPEAKER_02: Of course, I was also in therapy at the time.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: I was also in therapy at the time.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: Like thinking back, I'm like, and just having that, you know, additional support of therapy, but medication postpartum was a game changer.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I'm a huge advocate and an educator of what is safe during pregnancy for medication purposes and and what is not.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: We have an amazing facility here in Atlanta, the Emory Women's Mental Health Center, and they specialize in reproductive psychiatry.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: So it's a great resource that I often refer my clients to as well.
12:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's wonderful.
12:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: And I wanted to circle back to you about your sweaty palms and everything.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: As I was talking about postpartum anxiety, a lot of times more patients experience it physiologically than they necessarily do mentally.
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Like they go to sleep and they can't stay to sleep, or they'll jump awake.
13:01
SPEAKER_02: And it's because your nervous system is on high alert, you know, waiting for something, waiting for that threat or anticipating something bad to happen.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, it really greatly disrupts sleep, ability to feel calm and safe in your body.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: So it can be also just physiological symptoms that you're experiencing as well.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I I think that people need to hear people like us talking, like real, like let's talk real.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're both therapists.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: I was, you know, like I, and it resonates for me that Lindsay was a labor and delivery nurse because I was around all these people and I worked in a neonatal intensive care unit in PEADS, and I was around these babies, and it was just something I was so happy and looking forward to.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like the hormone.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: I feel like my hormones fell off a cliff after the baby is born.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: And but I'm I appreciate your openness and transparency about your experience as well, because I think people need to hear this, and and that we have to have eyes on the women in our lives who are going through pregnancy postpartum period.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, if you have a friend out there who's had a baby, just ask how they are doing.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: I really make it a point, of course.
14:13
SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm I love babies, of course.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: We want healthy babies, but we have to have healthy moms first.
14:18
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I'm I'm one to check in on the mom, of course, you know, and really ask, how are you doing?
14:25
SPEAKER_02: And so that's just, you know, something that I recommend to anybody I can tell you.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
14:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so one thing I I really want women and everybody in their lives to understand that's watching and listening to this podcast, and maybe you can help answer this question is what is the difference between having a frightening intrusive thought and actually wanting or believing that you need to harm your baby?
14:52
SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: So that's intrusive thoughts.
14:56
SPEAKER_02: And I I want to differentiate because intrusive thoughts are thoughts that come at random, okay?
15:01
SPEAKER_02: They have, you know, they can come out of nowhere and kind of startle you.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: And I use this example.
15:05
SPEAKER_02: We all have intrusive thoughts.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: If you've ever been walking down the stairs by yourself and just, whoa, what if I just tumble down the stairs?
15:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: But what's, you know, we can kind of brush that off easily, right?
15:17
SPEAKER_02: It just comes out of nowhere.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: We're not super taken over by it and we realize, well, that was weird, and we go about our day.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: So we all experience them in some form or fashion.
15:26
SPEAKER_02: But in the post-partum period, they tend to get, they tend to show up in different categories.
15:31
SPEAKER_02: And usually they are, you know, they can be, well, what if this bizarre thing happened to the baby or what if something bad happened to me?
15:38
SPEAKER_02: And so they come in out of nowhere, seemingly, and they are extremely disturbing.
15:44
SPEAKER_02: So they can vary from the form of, oh my gosh, what if I get sick and I can't take care of my baby?
15:48
SPEAKER_02: Okay, to, and this is maybe a trigger one or a trigger warning, but what if I were to harm my baby, right?
15:55
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's in the bath or in the kitchen.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it is, what if I threw my baby out the window?
16:01
SPEAKER_02: Like they can be bizarre as well, not just disturbing.
16:05
SPEAKER_02: And see, the hallmark here is though that the thought scares the individual.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:10
SPEAKER_02: Or disturbs the individual.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes out of extreme distress, crying, colic, you know, fussy, whatever, we're like, oh, and we get these, you know, scary thoughts, right?
16:21
SPEAKER_02: But they you would never act on them because they are ego dystonic.
16:25
SPEAKER_02: And that means they go against what you hold true to be moral and to be, yeah, they just go against your morals, really.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: So, and they can be really scary and sometimes they can be very persistent.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: The difference between that, and there is treatment for that, right?
16:43
SPEAKER_02: We do different forms of treatment for that, either exposure and response prevention, we do mindfulness techniques.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: And so the goal is to desensitize the individual from the fear of that thought.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Within, excuse me, a psychotic state, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_02: Where this teeters is when the individual no longer sees the disturbance in the act, meaning they have left touch with reality and they experience this either as a delusion to be true, like I must do this to protect myself, protect my children in this case, or they can hear it as a voice, which is an auditory hallucination.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: That is a medical emergency.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Immediate intervention is needed because they are no longer in touch with reality.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: And so they're more likely to act on it because they believe this to be true and they do not see the lack of moral in that act.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that, and once again, you have to let people know.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: So yes, I was I was gonna say you have to let people know that that's happening inside of you and don't have any shame or worry about judgment.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think they still might someone who's experiencing a psychosis.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: So let me, yes, I can talk a little bit about that too.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: So intrusive thoughts that are fearful and disturbing typically, if you experience these, I beg you, please let somebody know in your life.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: That does not mean you're gonna act on them necessarily, but it is important to let somebody know that this is what you're experiencing so that you can get the help that you need.
18:18
SPEAKER_02: Most women are scared to death to share these thoughts.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: I referenced the Lindsay Clancy trial.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: She called Patrick and her mother into the kitchen and she was terrified to explain that she was having thoughts of harming the children.
18:32
SPEAKER_02: That right there, the way she reported it, it was an intrusive thought.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: She was having these thoughts that were coming.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: She was terrified by them, but she was able to share with a family member.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: And that is important to note because, again, she knows the dissonance between what is right and what is wrong, what is, you know, scary versus what is not.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: And so that is the difference.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: And you can and you can absolutely get help, you know, have more intervention before it can turn into something worse, which takes a few more things than just having intrusive thoughts.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: But if you are experiencing a psychotic event and you listen, I worked with psychotic individuals before I went into maternal mental health.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: And so there's so many different types of delusions.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: And some are basically where their hearing voice is not to tell anybody this, or they'll harm will come to them.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Right.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: So there's a whole umbrella of psychoses that I don't even know the trial has touched on.
19:29
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it can be don't tell anyone that bad things will happen to you, or the delusion is so strong that they are doing something to save themselves, the world, you know, that they're not going to tell anybody.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: And so, and that's the difference.
19:43
SPEAKER_02: And again, I want to clarify once again, just because you're having intrusive thoughts does not mean you are going to become psychotic necessarily.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: And so let somebody know there's absolutely help for that.
19:57
SPEAKER_02: And but people are afraid to say it because they're like, well, what if, you know, I had a client who, you know, had defects, that's our, you know, family and child services, get called to her house because in the emergency room she reported scary intrusive thoughts.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: And so they did not treat it as the, you know, under the umbrella of perinatal mood disorders, they thought she actually wanted to do these things.
20:16
SPEAKER_02: And she it it was more traumatizing than anything else to go to the hospital then.
20:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of women become scared.
20:23
SPEAKER_00: But Chris, I think that's a hard one though, because like having worked with psychotic patients many years ago, but also worked in the ER forever, we're mandated reporters.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard because you hear it.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: You you if I heard it, I'd have to report.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: You know, it needs to be this is where our system, see, this is where our system is kind of failing us.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, okay, I don't know.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm in I'm in the ER, I'm a worker in the ER.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that you have fears of it.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: I can't hear that and not do my due diligence.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: I gotta report it.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And the patient needs help.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: The mother who's coming to the emergency room is trusting us to help her.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, great.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: I come in here, and all you're doing now is calling Department of Children and Family Services, you know, or or your your whatever it is in your state.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, now it's more shame on me.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I, and and judgment on me, because I'm I'm a bad mother because I told you something, a deep, deep fear and concern about myself.
21:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do it, but it's a fear and it's scaring the crap out of me.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's hard because we have to report it.
21:33
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, that my mom needs help.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: She needs mental health, serious mental health help.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: I would hope that in a system, DCFS or the department that you're in is not gonna come and take your child away.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: They're gonna do their investigation and they're gonna say, okay, what are the supports in place?
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Is there a dad?
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Is there a mom?
21:51
SPEAKER_00: Is there an auntie?
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Is there somebody here who's gonna who can take care of these children while we get mom help?
21:58
SPEAKER_00: And what is that gonna look like for that family?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's probably what's most ideal.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: And a really good therapist or caseworker or somebody who's explaining to the mother or the spouse or the partner, listen, this is how it's going to work.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: We're not taking your kids away because they don't everybody says you're going to take the kids.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: We they don't take kids away right away.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has to be like there have to be several things going on before that for that to happen.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to say that because I see, like when you were saying that, I'm like, I see why moms don't want to go to the ER and report this because that's what Lindsay was afraid of.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: You're going to take my kids away.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:35
SPEAKER_02: She had fears if people hear my thoughts.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: And that was, yes, part of you know, trending into her what I believe was her deterioration in mental health.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: She was afraid people could actually hear her thoughts as well, is what was reported.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: So what's the what's the term for that?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: There's a term for that.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, delusions of it's thought broadcasting.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: Thought broadcasting.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Thought broadcasting.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Thought broadcasting.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: She thought that essentially everybody could hear her thoughts.
22:58
SPEAKER_02: Well, she excuse me, let me that is what thought broadcasting is.
23:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, everyone can hear my thoughts.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: So let me try and keep everything under wrap.
23:05
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it can psychoses can take multiple forms.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: Forms.
23:18
SPEAKER_00: And I want to say something too when they were talking about how can you so she could heard the prosecution saying, oh, so she could just go about her day and make a snowman with her daughter and take the kids to the doctor and do all these things.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, my psychotic patients could be having a conversation with me.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And I know because I know them, like, okay, what else are you doing right now?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Who else are you talking to?
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Because I could, they would be talking to me, but I'd see they'd get it was the micro expressions.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: I could see them being like kind of looking over here.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, all right, are you taking because I'd be like, Are you taking your meds?
23:52
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're really stable on your meds, you shouldn't be having these auditory hallucinations.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: It was my first thought that, okay, you're not taking your meds because you're starting to decompensate a little bit.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Because I can tell you're having another conversation, but you're full on talking to me too.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: Right?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
24:09
SPEAKER_02: Again, based on the timeline and the report of symptoms in the trial for Lindsay, as an example, okay, with her building a snowman.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: All through December, things got significantly worse.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: And it appeared based again on reports in medical records and also from some of the witnesses.
24:28
SPEAKER_02: She could have been having what we call a mixed episode where she can wax and wane in between, you know, some more depressive symptoms that it might have brought her down a little bit, but then trending into more hypomania and psychosis.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: Psychosis doesn't have to be a, you know, a switch flips.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: It can, but you can come in and out of, as I mentioned, she was afraid of people hearing her thoughts.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: She's made statements in January where her mind was damaged, it was broken, it wasn't hers.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, using these terms that felt like she was becoming more derealized or dissociated from her own body, which again is a warning sign of, you know, slipping into a more detached from reality state.
25:09
SPEAKER_02: So she could, yes, people can function with psychosis.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: I used to see young adults at Georgia Tech, which is one of the, you know, hardest universities to get into and stay into, and they'd be attending classes and then come to my office and, you know, we'd be destricting or, you know, talking about what's real and what's not.
25:27
SPEAKER_02: So it's a very slippery slope to say.
25:29
SPEAKER_02: And it felt very condescending to me for the prosecution to use this as she's malingering and making this up and just because she was functioning.
25:38
SPEAKER_02: Because my question to you is what mother doesn't feel like she has to keep going or won't because of the shame, because of the the shoulds that we, you know, that we internalize from society and social media.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: So anyway.
25:51
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you're absolutely right.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: I know you work with a lot of women who are not psychotic or severely depressed, right?
25:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're anxious, they're depleted, they're completely overwhelmed.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that's something that we we both do.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: How do you distinguish mental illness from a mother who's having a pretty understandable response to just an unsustainable life?
26:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
26:15
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
26:17
SPEAKER_02: Well, I really think what it comes down to is are you having more bad days than good?
26:21
SPEAKER_02: And by bad, whether it's anxiety, let's have depression first.
26:24
SPEAKER_02: If you're crying almost every day, we need to talk more about let's further assess how many symptoms are you ticking off for a major depression, right?
26:31
SPEAKER_02: Or postpartum depression.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: And if, yeah, if you're having a hard time caring for yourself, like meeting your basic needs, like hygiene, nutrition, either sleeping way too much or not getting enough, in even appetite disturbances, not hungry, not eating, not nourishing yourself, or you know, maybe overindulging.
26:48
SPEAKER_02: So I honestly, that's my test.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: Are you having more bad days than good?
26:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
26:53
SPEAKER_02: Then we go from there.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: As it relates to anxiety, typically, if we're talking about, you know, what is just typical worry for being a mom or having more than one child and balancing life, you know, do you worry more parts of your day than not?
27:07
SPEAKER_02: Does your brain turn off?
27:09
SPEAKER_02: Here's the one I use when they're pretty new postpartum.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: If I said I'm taking care of the baby, the house is safe, you know, go lay down and go sleep.
27:19
SPEAKER_02: And if you cannot turn your mind off or your body won't let you, then we need to talk more about okay, is this more of an anxiety disorder?
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, because I think it's we need to normalize motherhood is extremely overwhelming, especially, or it can be, especially the way that society has portrayed it these days.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: And I, you know, I do everything I can to try and, you know, I say lower the bar, lower the bar to like very low, you know, to get back on your feet because when we are thrust into motherhood in 2026, even to the 2000s, it's you know, what it what does this person say on social media?
27:54
SPEAKER_02: What does Google say?
27:55
SPEAKER_02: What does the American Society of Pediatrics say?
27:58
SPEAKER_02: Google is not our friend all the time.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: It can make anxiety and overwhelm worse.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: So, anyhow, I would say the difference is between A, how long is this lasting?
28:09
SPEAKER_02: How long has it been going on?
28:10
SPEAKER_02: You know, if it's been more than four to six weeks, let's talk about like, you know, sometimes in working with insurance, you have to give a diagnosis.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: That's the hard part.
28:18
SPEAKER_02: And the only one we have that works is adjustment disorder, which is what they gave Lindsay Clancy.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't cover it.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: Is that true?
28:26
SPEAKER_02: Is that true?
28:26
SPEAKER_02: Yes, they gave her an adjustment disorder, adjustment disorder with major depression.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: That's the that an adjustment disorder for all of you.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: We all have.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's the most benign disorder.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's the most benign disorder, and it's what everybody kind of uses when you think to yourself like we're using insurance, yes, and they don't really meet criteria for anything else.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: So I'll give them an adjustment disorder.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: So insurance will be.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: You're right.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: Wow, I did not know that.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Somebody who okay, so that's uh Dr.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Jennifer Tupps in the beginning.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: That was the diagnosis they were working with.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Is that the 32-year-old psychiatrist that was kind of very kind of I thought rude to Reddington?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she's gave an adjustment.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Wow, okay.
29:11
SPEAKER_02: I wow.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, to be fair, I mean, but then with a j like there again, to be fair, and sadly that's where the discrepancy lies, is there isn't anything specific to postpartum, you know?
29:23
SPEAKER_02: So but it was a disorder.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: But postpartum isn't the DSM five, it's just postpartum depression, DSM five, right?
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Not anxiety, and there's no postpartum psychosis in there.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: I think you mentioned that because I could yeah, yeah, yeah, correct.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: So and in all fairness, you're right.
29:38
SPEAKER_00: We didn't, I don't know.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: We weren't sitting in the room when Jennifer Tufts was talking to Lindsay, and maybe Lindsay didn't feel safe.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's something to psychological safety, and I don't know, did she say?
29:48
SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we don't know.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, they they it just does seem like the mental health people in her world failed her.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and she wasn't even a therapist.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: I know.
30:00
SPEAKER_02: It she I know I had it was, and this is what leads me to believe though that okay, so I counted five times between the end of November through December 20th, which is when around the holidays, because then she went into the hospital after.
30:15
SPEAKER_02: Five times, again, just listening to medical documentation from the medical records, not by me assuming anything, I would have sent her to the hospital five times.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Really?
30:29
SPEAKER_02: In the inner interactions with her, yes, based on her reports of intensive, excessive, intrusive thoughts and suicidality.
30:38
SPEAKER_02: The problem they had though in the state of Massachusetts, I don't know, is that she didn't have a plan.
30:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm very passionate about this.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't mean send the person home.
30:46
SPEAKER_02: Again, Massachusetts may be different, but there's ways to assess risk factors other than just the individual having a plan.
30:54
SPEAKER_02: Like, did did her husband feel safe managing this illness at home?
30:58
SPEAKER_02: Did she feel safe with her husband managing this illness at home?
31:01
SPEAKER_02: Was it still unmanaged, even with her husband and her mother and her mother-in-law coming?
31:06
SPEAKER_02: Right.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, the whole like she didn't have a plan, that was a punch in the gut because I think there's so much more of the picture that is missed if if they simply state she doesn't have a plan.
31:17
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I personally, again, strictly based on listening to symptoms from the medical records, I personally saw or believed that her hypomania and tumania was not pharmacologically managed.
31:32
SPEAKER_02: And the longer you go without that being treated, it is like your brain lighting on fire.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: Essentially, your brain is on fire.
31:41
unknown: Yeah.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: And medicine at that point is the only thing that can help bring that fire out.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: At which point, then you can start to work through perhaps therapy or whatever.
31:52
SPEAKER_02: But honestly, I agree.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: I think she, if she had a therapist, there was a counselor in where she saw twice, I think, in person.
32:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: But it was really just trying to bridge her to the next level of care.
32:03
SPEAKER_02: It was not, you know, acting in a supportive manner or give providing interventions for treatment based again on what I heard from the documentation.
32:12
SPEAKER_02: I'm not assuming anything.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think she is a case where I think you and I would agree this is someone who needs to be under psychiatric care.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: So she needed a therapist.
32:21
SPEAKER_00: And a therapist and the and the psychiatrist needed to be working in collaboration with one another.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: I know I do that.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you do that.
32:29
SPEAKER_00: I think that it's best practice.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
32:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, she she needed to have a psychotherapist, someone who is in her corner, who's like if it was you and me, Kristen, our flags would be going off.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Like I'd have all these red flags going off and being like, okay, like you just said, okay, okay, we need, I gotta get on the phone with your parents.
32:48
SPEAKER_00: Maybe we're doing a family meeting.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Like get your mom and dad, get your mother-in-law, your father, like get your husband, like let's get who get your sister-in-law, let's get people in here.
32:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is like and ask more questions.
33:02
SPEAKER_00: And I think what we're seeing with Massachusetts, like so many, many, many of our states, and probably United States, we have so much improving to do.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: I think it's different in Canada, it's different in England, other parts of the world.
33:16
SPEAKER_00: The system, I mean, I think that we saw this is a woman who is just kind of getting pushed through the system.
33:21
SPEAKER_00: And yes, did she need to be under psychiatrist care?
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because this is psychosis we're talking about.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: And you and I, we we really we can't be treating these clients without, I think, and you tell me what you think.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: I think ethically you have to have a psychiatrist on board when you're dealing with psychosis.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh, 100%.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: We're not MD interview.
33:39
SPEAKER_02: It is yeah, no, and it and it requires an MD intervention.
33:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it does.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: So that's important that we say that that a psychiatrist must be in on board and treating the client, but the client can also, the patient can also have a therapist.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I think we're absolutely yeah, we're we're we're seeing what's happening as we're really getting to know the the patient slash the client.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And and we look at a biopsychosocial person and environment approach, right?
34:06
SPEAKER_00: So we're looking at at Lindsay in in in the context of her whole life.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: We're looking at supports, probably a little bit more in detail than I think the the doctors were.
34:18
SPEAKER_02: And typically, well, absolutely.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: And I think that can be normal.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: And again, you know, referring to the Lindsay Clancy case, you know, it was she was seen by a psychiatrist for 17, 20 minutes, 25, whatever.
34:30
SPEAKER_02: And that's pretty typical just for a medication check, whereas therapy is more typically 50 minutes to an hour long, and we are able to pull more from even just body language and nuance and conversation.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, there was it just so many missed opportunities where I was just like screaming from my couch or or you know, in my car listening to the case.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, why didn't anybody, why didn't anybody step in here?
34:58
SPEAKER_02: Why didn't anybody send her to the hospital?
35:00
SPEAKER_02: And and she did go to the hospital and she was sent home, I believe, one time.
35:04
SPEAKER_02: And the other time she did decline admission because I think she was scared to death.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: But, anyways, it's just there were so many missed opportunities.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: And one time they didn't take her because she was on too many meds.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: And I think they didn't want to take that on.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: This is someone who was or quote, over medicated, right?
35:23
SPEAKER_02: Right.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: And that was actually a treatment program where she could have received like group support, individual support.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: That was an intensive, intensive outpatient program.
35:32
SPEAKER_02: And so the fact that they saw her, I mean, yeah, you can look at the medicine, but it suggests to me that she looked perhaps over medicated and would not be able to participate in programming because you don't just send someone away saying, I see your list of meds, you know, I I would imagine they would have to assess her, you know, her appearance, her affect, her ability to, you know, interact with the program and not just send her away based on so there's another red flag, you know?
35:58
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so many, so many.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so let's just go over this one more time.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: So, what are some of the warning signs that partners, spouses, women themselves should take seriously?
36:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, and what are the signs where you would say, okay, you don't wait for your next therapy appointment.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Like you need to go to the ER now.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it?
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's go over that just real quickly one more time for those who are sure.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
36:24
SPEAKER_02: So, and again, okay, so and to be clear, you know, to get therapy or to reach out for support, you do not have to wait for a crisis to occur.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: You do not have to wait for the bottom to fall out.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: You know, it doesn't mean you're failing or anything's wrong with you.
36:37
SPEAKER_02: That's what we're here for, that's what we do this for, right?
36:41
SPEAKER_02: So it doesn't have to be an extreme case or you know, an actual mood disorder, if you're just struggling and you need somebody to talk to, right?
36:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: And get strategies of court.
36:51
SPEAKER_02: This is what we specialize in.
36:52
SPEAKER_02: This is why we're here.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: So as it relates to when to reach out for help, certainly if you are having thoughts of suicide or that just will not relent, okay, they become more persistent or, like I said, a little bit louder.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't mean you necessarily know what she would want to do, just reach out.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: That is the time to at least call your doctor, say, hey, me or my partner are experiencing this.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: What should we do?
37:18
SPEAKER_02: Should we go to the emergency room?
37:20
SPEAKER_02: Is there a crisis hotline?
37:22
SPEAKER_02: And so certainly thoughts of suicide and or just, you know, it I would say not sleeping.
37:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: If you are not sleeping, I want to touch on this.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: You're not sleeping and you're not, and you can't sleep, and yet you still don't feel tired, that's a warning sign too, because that means you could have this elevated sense of energy.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: And without sleep, it could be indicative of a hypomania or trending into a manic state, which again is something that can be intervened with medically as well.
37:56
SPEAKER_02: If you're not able to function in your day, I would say, like you're not, you're, you're hopeless, helpless, not taking care of yourself, not, you know, basic daily care activities of daily living, I would indicate to somebody's partner, like, at least call her doctor.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Any sort of drastic change in their ability to function, you know, taking care of baby, not wanting to take care of baby, again, reach out for help.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: Call, I always say, first line of defense, even though we can talk about the fragmented healthcare system, first line of defense, if you're a partner or even if you're the patient and you don't know where to go, call your OB.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: I don't care how many months postpartum you are.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: Or if you have a better close relationship with, let's say, your primary care physician.
38:38
SPEAKER_02: But recently I had a client who we called a family meeting because she was declining and I was worried.
38:45
SPEAKER_02: And she had tried reaching out to her primary care and just did not have a good connection.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: So she felt lost.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: And so when we started talking about, you know, perhaps trying some medication, she didn't know where to go because she had had such an off-putting experience with her primary care.
39:00
SPEAKER_02: She gets in with her OB and actually had a very good experience and was started on some medicine and and we're working through that.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: But again, I would say start there.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:11
SPEAKER_02: If you're not satisfied, then I and you are you are worried about your loved one.
39:16
SPEAKER_02: I would consider calling a crisis hotline or bringing her or yourself to the emergency room.
39:22
SPEAKER_02: The worst thing they can do is say, I'm sorry you don't qualify, but you know, here are some resources.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they'll give you resources.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:31
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: And so, so yes, I hope that clarifies, you know, when to actually, you know, reach out for help.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: But even if you just not feeling like yourself, it is okay to reach out for help.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's funny.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: I think that when I'm listening to you speak and I think to myself, and maybe this is ideal.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's something that should be available to all people.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can find good therapists in your community mental health centers in the communities or the towns or the suburbs that you live in.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, find a therapist.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: And if this is, I would the ideal is to have had a therapist in your pregnancy, maybe for other things.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I personally think that people should spend some time in therapy at at least some point in their life.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: You know, having a baby is a major transition.
40:18
SPEAKER_00: A pregnancy, having a baby, you know, it's a wonderful time, but it's also a top stressor in our lives.
40:24
SPEAKER_00: It's a happy time, but stress is not always just, it's not always around death.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: It's always around grief and loss.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Stress is also around moving.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: And even if you're excited to move into this new place or this new town, it's still stressful, right?
40:37
SPEAKER_00: Getting a new job you're excited about, it's still stressful.
40:39
SPEAKER_00: Having a baby, you're so excited you can't wait for this baby to come, it's still stressful.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: So I do think that ideally, maybe you could go into therapy.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: If that's something you've been thinking about, go ahead and do it.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: Because once you develop and you find that person that feels like a fit for you and you have psychological safety with them, there's another person who's got eyes on you.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: And there's another person who can see, okay, this is different.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Something's up.
41:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had a patient just recently, half my practice is therapy, the other part's coaching.
41:10
SPEAKER_00: This is there's a therapy client I've been with.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: We've been together for years, years, and she's doing really well.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: I wasn't even seeing her every week anymore.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: I was seeing her, I think it was just once a month.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: And she called me out of the blue.
41:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, not out of the blue, but she called it wasn't like her to call me.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: She's like, something's I'm I'm I'm going, something's happening.
41:31
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to get into the details of it, but she was it struck me.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, all right, let's get you on the schedule.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: See you, you know, see ASAP.
41:41
SPEAKER_00: She, we don't know what happened, but she went through a it's like a new diagnosis that came up.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: And she went through this, she went somebody who just dealt with anxiety, but not bad anxiety, you know, maybe a generalized anxiety disorder, if that.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: And we're full went in a full-on panic disorder that came out.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: And very concerning, like getting her a psychiatrist, didn't have a psychiatrist, like didn't wasn't on meds, like getting over the psychiatrist, getting her on meds, getting her twice weekly into therapy.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And this is something that like she called me, but immediately was like, I was on it.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, I am you're coming in more, we're talking more.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: I was, and I don't really text with my therapy clients, but I was texting.
42:25
SPEAKER_00: I was worried about her.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking, yeah, I was really like lucky to have you.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that that's and to your point about you, it sounds like you're the same.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that we have we, these are our people, like these clients are people.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: We and it's our job to also help take care of them and to see what they can't see and to make sure that you know you got the support you need.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: You, you let's get you, you need to see psychiatrists now.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: Or we I don't specialize in this, like I don't do EMDR.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: Let's get you with a therapist who can do some EMDR with you.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I think that that's so, so important.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: And you, anyone I would like to think can get that help, even if you say, Well, Anna, I don't have insurance or I can't afford it.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: There's some amazing community mental health centers around where I live where I had one client whose friend I sent there,$10 a session, and she got great help.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's amazing.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: So I do want to say that, right?
43:21
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: And also, too, there is a resource, an amazing resource.
43:24
SPEAKER_02: It's Postpartum Support International.
43:27
SPEAKER_02: The website, if you Google it, I forget the exact handle, but it's Postpartum Support International.
43:31
SPEAKER_02: And you can put in your zip code and it'll bring up all of the therapists, myself included, who would come up in your area to specialize in this.
43:39
SPEAKER_02: And then it'll indicate if they take insurance or not.
43:42
SPEAKER_02: There are also some pretty good support groups online through Postpartum Support International.
43:46
SPEAKER_02: Of course, COVID brought the, you know, the boom of virtual support, right?
43:51
SPEAKER_02: So that's another great resource to tap into if you are, you know, thinking about therapy or, you know, or you know, Can't afford it or insurance won't cover it, whatever.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: So another great take advantage.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: Take advantage, yeah.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: So here's another question that I wrote down when I was getting ready for this.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: Uh in your experience, uh we talked about this a little bit.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Uh women are afraid, do you think, to tell people, maybe even you, maybe even a professional, what they're really feeling and thinking in fear that they'll be judged and their kid will be taken away.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you think that that's a real thought for women?
44:30
SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
44:32
SPEAKER_02: I hear all the time in my office, not necessarily that my children will be taken away, but that they're so fearful and feel terrible for thinking or feeling a certain way.
44:42
SPEAKER_02: Whether it's, you know, I we made a mistake, I don't want this life anymore, or, you know, sometimes I don't like my kids or whatever, you know, I want a different life.
44:52
SPEAKER_02: All of these things are so normal.
44:54
SPEAKER_02: And the more that you, if you're, I always say if you're not speaking it, you're storing it.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: So if you're not sharing this with somebody, it gets stored.
45:00
SPEAKER_02: And it's gonna come out somewhere or somehow, whether it's on you physically, right?
45:04
SPEAKER_02: Through illness or something like that, or it's gonna come out in another way in a depressive episode and you know, anxiety episode.
45:11
SPEAKER_02: So it's so important to find someone that you feel safe and comfortable to share this with and realize it is very normal to have really unwanted thoughts, right?
45:20
SPEAKER_02: Or it's not, and motherhood is not always beautiful sunshine and roses.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: It's not, it's not, it's hard.
45:28
SPEAKER_02: It's demanding some days you want to run away.
45:30
SPEAKER_02: And so just to know that you're not alone in that is extremely important.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm very big on just making sure that women know that this is not all Instagram worthy, okay?
45:42
SPEAKER_02: It's not a highlight reel.
45:44
SPEAKER_00: You know, and really great point, Kristen.
45:46
SPEAKER_00: And I want to say this too.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, my kids are in their 20s and early 30s now.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: And let me tell you, when they you first come home, let's talk about all the bodily changes that we're going through, whether you've had a natural vaginal delivery or a C-section.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, you just had a major procedure.
46:04
SPEAKER_00: Your body's not the same.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: You still look like you're three months pregnant for a while after you've come home from the hospital.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: You know, you are not getting sleep.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: You have this being that you are taking care of that gives nothing back to you.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: So I think that that's important that they just they sleep and they cry and they need to eat, they need their diapers changed, and it's our job.
46:25
SPEAKER_00: And we feel that it's so we keep them alive, especially for nursing.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: Like I think nursing is a whole other thing.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: I used to say all the time after I had kids, there's why do they talk about the first trimester, the second, third trimester?
46:37
SPEAKER_00: Why don't they talk about the quads?
46:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a fourth part.
46:40
SPEAKER_00: Why does anybody talk about that?
46:41
SPEAKER_00: That's harder than anything else I went through.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: And I was sick.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I was not even vomiting in my pregnancies.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the hardest part, right?
46:49
SPEAKER_00: So they don't we don't talk about that enough.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: And the talk about the fact that this little being we're taking care of, where it's like, oh my God, like really, like I'm exhausted and I'm nursing again, or I have to give the baby a bottle again.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: And I just think that we to your point, like we think it's all rainbows and and butterflies.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: It's not.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it is not.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: We were here to tell you.
47:12
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and it can come in waves too, right?
47:14
SPEAKER_02: You may not, and the I think the thing to to to remember, speaking of the fourth trimester, is you know, you could I've had quite a few women come in and they say, you know, the first three months I was fine.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: And then I started experiencing more anxiety, panic, or even rage as time went on.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, it's really important to know it's never too late to reach out.
47:33
SPEAKER_02: And nothing is out of the ordinary, of course, unless you are truly, you know, fearing for for your safety, your health, right?
47:40
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, it's it's so normal at any point, in any point of motherhood, right?
47:44
SPEAKER_02: Because I say I treat women postpartum and beyond, because yes, to your point, my kids are 16 and about to be 15.
47:50
SPEAKER_02: And I go through some, I go some through some things every week with them.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: And there's with every stage, there's, you know, a I want to say a gain and a loss.
48:00
SPEAKER_02: You may start, you know, gaining a little more freedom yourself, but you're losing, you know, something else in them.
48:06
SPEAKER_02: You they're not around as much or whatever.
48:08
SPEAKER_02: So there's always something, and you don't have to have a diagnosable mental health condition to receive support at all.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you said that.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: So what do you wish that we were all doing differently for women before it ever reaches a crisis?
48:24
SPEAKER_00: If if you could change some things, what do you societally?
48:29
SPEAKER_00: I know it's a big question.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that stands out for you that you wish we we could change for women?
48:36
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
48:36
SPEAKER_02: First, I wish that our healthcare system was more bridged for women in the pregnancy into postpartum phase, because this is where women get missed all the time.
48:47
SPEAKER_02: If you're no longer six weeks postpartum, a lot of women don't want to go to their OB.
48:51
SPEAKER_02: The pediatrician sees the baby more often, and therefore mom typically more often.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: And yet the baby is the patient there.
48:59
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, and then you're when we're talking about, you know, therapists, some therapists do not specialize and don't want to get their hands into a postpartum, you know, mental health issue.
49:10
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, I just wish there was more communication and connection to bridge the gaps, but for for women and baby.
49:17
SPEAKER_02: If baby's in the NICU, I get a lot of this too.
49:19
SPEAKER_02: You know, baby is the patient, right?
49:21
SPEAKER_02: But mom may be struggling because that is a whole other problem.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: And that's a complicated grief that we get worried about.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: So when I would, when I was working in the NICU, when the baby would be discharged, I was always very concerned about follow-up because now the baby, it's a whole that's a whole other conversation.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: But now the baby is home with you, and maybe the baby is, you know, maybe baby is four pounds, five ounces, four.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it used to be like four pounds, eight ounces before they could come home.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: There's still very little.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: You still have the crisis of, okay, I'm taking care of this little baby, and the baby is in the NICU for some kind of medical reason.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: Now it's just me, and yeah, we can send out home health.
50:00
SPEAKER_00: But the overwhelming sense of responsibility that that mother has, that's it's huge.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it's so huge.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what have I gotten myself into?
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you want to get pregnant, yeah, you want to have a baby, but now the baby, something happened.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: Preterm labor, the baby's a preemie, maybe there's an illness.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: That's its own thing in and of itself.
50:22
SPEAKER_00: So I want to just put a shout out to all of those moms and and families, dads who've gone through that.
50:27
SPEAKER_00: That's that's its own thing.
50:29
SPEAKER_00: And my heart goes out to you.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Get help around that.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: And your thoughts are don't judge your thoughts.
50:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: I think that's the one thing for all for you and I that we could say to all these moms, don't judge your thoughts.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Don't don't, there's no shame here.
50:46
SPEAKER_00: There's no room for shame here.
50:48
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
50:49
SPEAKER_02: If you're our, I always say, you know, if you're already struggling and then you add your own judgment on top of your thoughts, you're just burying yourself deeper, right?
50:57
SPEAKER_02: So just acknowledge them.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: And we are not our thoughts.
51:00
SPEAKER_02: Just because you have a thought, that doesn't mean all of them are accurate.
51:04
SPEAKER_02: And so absolutely.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: And as far as you know, coming through the NICU or even, you know, with birth trauma, like there's PTSD associated with that as well that I see oftentimes.
51:13
SPEAKER_02: And so there's an added layer of risk for the moms and families.
51:18
SPEAKER_02: If you have had a NICU stay, you are, you know, thrust into a higher category of risk of experiencing a postpartum mood disorder.
51:25
SPEAKER_02: So that's absolutely, you know, something to pay more attention to and get the help that you deserve.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm glad you said that because there's a trauma associated with that for some people.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
51:38
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so uh, Kristen, thank you so much for coming on and talking.
51:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we're just like scratching the surface.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
51:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can talk about this all day.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think we needed to start somewhere.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, you do this.
51:56
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is your jam, and and I think what I'm hearing you say is there's no judgment, there's no shame here.
52:04
SPEAKER_00: Get the help you need.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: And there are people like you, and I'm gonna put that postpartum international.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: I'll put that in the show notes.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: There are people like you out there who can help women who are going through this.
52:16
SPEAKER_00: Help, you're the person that I'm gonna, you know, be referring people to.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: Like get the help you need, you're gonna see somebody like Kristen.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you.
52:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm extremely passionate about what I do.
52:28
SPEAKER_02: Again, the first thing I tell my clients when they walk in the door is there's absolutely zero judgment in my room.
52:32
SPEAKER_02: I've heard it all, seen it all, and I just I make space for it.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: And the more comfortable that my clients feel just being more open, the better that I'm able to help them.
52:41
SPEAKER_02: And I think that goes for any therapist.
52:43
SPEAKER_02: So please be open, please be honest.
52:46
SPEAKER_02: Again, there is no judgment or shame in in struggling.
52:49
SPEAKER_00: So, Kristen, where can people find you if they're the watching this or and listening and they're like, okay, I want to, I wanna reach out to her.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: Where can they find you?
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm on Instagram, I am at calm momcounselor, all one word, and my website, and I'm pretty ti I've been posting a good bit on there, especially about the Lindsay Clancy trial that's picked up a lot of speed.
53:12
SPEAKER_02: And on my website, it is www.kristinmyze.com.
53:17
SPEAKER_02: It's K-R-I-S-T-I-N-M-I-Z-E dot com.
53:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's where you can find me.
53:23
SPEAKER_02: And as far as where I sit physically, I'm in Cod County, Georgia, a suburb right outside of Atlanta.
53:28
SPEAKER_02: And I have a private practice there where I've been for I've been practicing since 13, 14 years.
53:35
SPEAKER_02: And so yeah, I absolutely love what I do.
53:37
SPEAKER_02: I I never work a day in my life, and it just makes me so happy.
53:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's wonderful.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: And so you have a are you also parent coach?
53:45
SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, yeah, absolutely.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: So I do.
53:48
SPEAKER_02: I help, well, most of my moms who come see me are high achieving.
53:51
SPEAKER_02: And this is what I touched on.
53:53
SPEAKER_02: Most of the women that I see my practice are high achieving perfectionist type A people pleasers who then are met with challenges in parenting because nothing is perfect.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: Think lots of things are out of their control.
54:07
SPEAKER_02: And we know now that parenting is different these days.
54:09
SPEAKER_02: And so we don't want to parent the way we were parented necessarily, with I told, you know, I'll give you something to cry about.
54:15
SPEAKER_02: And so I have done all the research in my own parenting journey and also what we're what has been made more available to us with the research that we have now to help parents to parent more calmly, more effectively, have moms and dads with more confidence in their decision making and parenting skills.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, they can feel calm even in the chaos that might ensue of motherhood.
54:36
SPEAKER_02: Because if you are type A and high achieving, that is the opposite of what you've been used to.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: So keeping calm in the chaos, parenting effectively, calmly, and communicating and connecting with your kid.
54:48
SPEAKER_02: Because it can be really hard to do if you're always thinking in your mind and worrying and wanting things to be just so.
54:56
SPEAKER_02: And then motherhood's like, I'll show you.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: Motherhood comes in and goes, Yeah, well, we gotta, we yeah, we got another thing.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: You got another thing coming.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:04
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
55:05
SPEAKER_02: You like order, forget it.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, so it's really just how do you, you know, calmly navigate through those seasons of parenting, toddlers, teens, and anywhere in between.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, they will they will come in and just completely upset the apple cart and go, you want perfection?
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, just watch.
55:23
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, absolutely.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: That's why God gave us twins.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: I mean, twins, I think.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: So it force the type A right on out of me.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: So okay.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you so much for coming on.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: This is kind of last minute.
55:39
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna drop this on Thursday because I want it's timely because we're I think we're now in final closing arguments in this trial.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: Watching closely.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: We will all be watching.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: All right, Kristen.
55:52
SPEAKER_00: So I will put your information in the show notes.
55:53
SPEAKER_00: If you all want, all want to reach out to Kristen, please do so.
55:57
SPEAKER_00: And mad love to all of you until next time.