Latest / Banish the Lies: Outsmart Your Inner Critic / 72: Are You Running on Sand? | The Invisible Beliefs Making Life Harder with Erin McQuade-Wright

Transcript

72: Are You Running on Sand? | The Invisible Beliefs Making Life Harder with Erin McQuade-Wright · Banish the Lies: Outsmart Your Inner Critic

0:00
Speaker: Hey friends.
0:00
Speaker: Today I'm doing something a little different.
0:02
Speaker: My guest is Erin McQuaide- Wright, who I met through a podcasting group we're both a part of.
0:08
Speaker: Erin hosts a podcast called The Brave and Balanced Fundraiser, which, as the name suggests, is created specifically for people who work in fundraising.
0:17
Speaker: But as I started listening to Erin's show, I realized that underneath that very specific audience, we were talking about so many of the same things: the beliefs that we carry, the ways we try to keep ourselves safe, the pressure to perform, and also what happens when the strategies that once served us start getting in the way.
0:38
Speaker: So rather than interview each other in the traditional sense, we decided to have a conversation.
0:43
Speaker: We talked about everything from perfectionism and the hidden payoffs of our patterns to why the belief "I'm not ready" can keep us stuck, and why sometimes trying harder isn't the answer.
0:56
Speaker: I really enjoyed where this conversation went, and I hope you will too.
1:00
Speaker: Here's my conversation with Erin.
1:06
Tania: Welcome to Banish the Lies, the podcast where we outsmart that sneaky inner critic and get closer to the truth that sets us free.
1:13
Tania: I'm Tania Cervoni, your host and fellow work in Progress here to share real stories and small shifts that help you reclaim what fear and doubt once stole.
1:24
Tania: Let's jump in.
1:30
Speaker: My guest today is Tania Cervoni.
1:33
Speaker: And Tania and I met in a really interesting podcasting course, and have been sort of a sounding board for each other ever since, and I'm really excited to dive into this conversation today.
1:48
Speaker: Tania, why don't you tell my listeners what it is you do in the world?
1:51
Speaker: Absolutely.
1:53
Speaker: Thank you, Erin.
1:54
Speaker: And I guess I can say that my guest today is Erin McQuaide, Wright, and, I think it's very cool that both of our podcasts are very different, and I'm sure we'll touch on that, but some of the core themes are the same.
2:07
Speaker: So it's exciting to have this little collaboration where we talk about this.
2:11
Speaker: Yeah, I'm Tania Cervoni, and, by day I work in leadership development, and I do enjoy that.
2:18
Speaker: Um, what brings me the most joy, though, is helping people recognize those invisible or unconscious beliefs that, let's say, that make life a little harder than maybe it needs to be.
2:33
Speaker: And, you know, for a long time I thought that something was wrong with me because I spent decades trying to fix myself, and then eventually I got to a point where I realized I wasn't really broken.
2:47
Speaker: I was highly conditioned by all the experiences and the feedback I had received over a lifetime, and so I had inherited and absorbed certain beliefs that I just failed to question.
3:00
Speaker: So whether I'm working in a leadership development context or I'm speaking at conferences or I'm doing an episode for my Vanish The Lies podcast, uh, that's the work that interests me the most, just helping people recognize the stories that they've lived by and that they've mistaken for truth.
3:20
Speaker: And that's what really lights me up and what I love to talk about and do.
3:24
Speaker: How about you?
3:25
Speaker: Well, I came into the podcasting world after 15 years in philanthropy as a fundraiser.
3:35
Speaker: And I really think that there were such high highs and such low lows in there, and one of the opportunities I think I might have missed is to really experience that in community with others.
3:52
Speaker: And it's easy when we decide not to do that, when we decide to keep it to ourselves, it's easy to believe that we're the only one who's going through it.
4:02
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
4:03
Speaker: And so I had a kind of a rough go of it, and I was able to raise a lot of money, but the cost to my body and to my spirit was really high.
4:17
Speaker: And I thought Years later, I became a coach and I, and I did so much healing with the tools I learned in coaching.
4:28
Speaker: And I thought, ah, this would be...
4:30
Speaker: I could have really used this- Mm-hmm when I was a frontline fundraiser raising money for different causes in my community.
4:38
Speaker: So I thought, "Well, that might be a podcast that I can just offer as a love note to the person I used to be." It is nervous system regulation and emotional mastery tools, right?
4:50
Speaker: How do we deal with ourselves as we do the work of fundraising?
4:56
Speaker: And it's so interesting to me how, like you said, we come from really different areas, but there's a nice dovetailing of our podcasts even though mine is for fundraisers and that's sort of a really defined niche.
5:14
Speaker: The, the, the connection I see is that no matter what we're trying to do in the world or trying to create in the world, we first have to come up against ourselves.
5:25
Speaker: And just like you said, those stories, those lies that we caught and believed or created for ourselves.
5:33
Speaker: And so many people are waking up to the opportunity to let that, set that story down and let that story go if it's not serving us today.
5:45
Speaker: And I think that's what we talk about on my podcast, and I love that that's what we talk about on your podcast.
5:52
Speaker: And I have to say, your voice is so beautiful to me, and the resonance of it is medicine really.
6:00
Speaker: Every time I hear you I'm like, oh Tania.
6:04
Speaker: I mean, that's not, that's not everybody.
6:06
Speaker: Not everybody has that going for them.
6:08
Speaker: So I want to encourage my listeners to check out Banish the Lies because this voice that you'll hear toda- in today's episode, you can have more of it.
6:20
Speaker: It is readily available to you for free out in the world.
6:24
Speaker: Oh my goodness I- That is such a kind introduction.
6:28
Speaker: And g- going back to what you said about wanting to have a love note to the, you know, to that person that you were, the one who could have really used that podcast, I just want to I want to thank you because, I've been binging your podcast, and I marvel at just the universality about, you know, these stories that we c- create.
6:50
Speaker: Doesn't matter if we're a fundraiser, doesn't matter if we're in leadership development, doesn't matter if we're CEO of an organization, they still very much show up.
6:56
Speaker: So thank you for that 'cause I've really benefited especially about the part, around our nervous system and how we expand the amount of success we can hold.
7:07
Speaker: Like, you talked about that you raised a lot of money and you were successful by many standards, but at what cost?
7:14
Speaker: And I think that's something we're gonna touch on, you know, the costs and the payoffs of the ways that we've been operating which might push us to redefine success a little bit.
7:23
Speaker: So- Yeah I'll be interested to expand on that.
7:25
Speaker: Beautiful.
7:26
Speaker: Well, I'd love to hear from you about the conference that you did recently where you spoke about AI and its influence in the workplace, and I'd love to hear how it resonated with people because I think AI is a really important topic right now, and I think people have a lot of questions about it.
7:49
Speaker: What was your take, and how was the response that you received in return?
7:55
Speaker: Yeah.
7:57
Speaker: Well, what's interesting is a lot of the conference talked about AI, and my talk had nothing to do directly with AI, but where the connection part was, that essentially is we can go to all the conferences, we can read the books, we can do all the, the training, you know, and we can use all the AI tools in the world, but knowledge alone doesn't translate into results.
8:21
Speaker: It doesn't translate into transformation.
8:23
Speaker: It's only the first step, and it's until we have a good relationship with ourselves and a certain level of self-trust, you know, that's when we can take all that information and the knowledge, whether it's ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, doesn't matter what the AI tool is that's advising you, that's when you can take that into action so that you can actually move forward into whatever it is you're creating or the person that you're becoming.
8:48
Speaker: And, I think that message really resonated because, many of us do all the things and we attend all the conferences and then like a week later it becomes this vague memory of like, "Yeah, that was fun.
9:03
Speaker: That was interesting." But you get sucked back into the vortex of work and you don't necessarily do anything with it.
9:08
Speaker: What seemed to stick with people based on the survey that I conducted, well there were a few things, but the number one thing that was commented on was the power of curiosity when we are facing, that inner critic that comes and tells us, "Yeah, this is all great what we're learning, but you're not capable.
9:27
Speaker: You're not ready," whatever that voice is telling you.
9:30
Speaker: I'll give an example that I gave in the conference.
9:32
Speaker: You know, I had thought about launching a podcast for I think well over five years- And then when I finally made the decision that, "That's it.
9:42
Speaker: It's happening.
9:42
Speaker: It- I'm, I'm doing it," all the old voices came to the party and started screaming like, "Who are you to launch a podcast?
9:51
Speaker: What if no one listens?
9:52
Speaker: What if it's boring?
9:53
Speaker: What if you embarrass yourself?" You know, you can imagine this, this went on.
9:56
Speaker: And then thankfully, I, I was visiting with a friend, and I was sharing all this with her, and she said to me...
10:04
Speaker: She asked a very good curiosity question, and she asked, "How could this be fun?" And I'll be honest, at first I looked at her and I wanted to just kinda shake her.
10:16
Speaker: I'm like, "What are you talking about?
10:17
Speaker: Like, I'm over here having a panic attack and you're talking about fun." Like- Hm ...like, have you been listening to where I'm at?
10:23
Speaker: Like, what do you..." And I didn't even want to entertain the question, but when I could put my indignation aside for a moment and actually give it some space and contemplate the question, I recognized a few things.
10:37
Speaker: Number one, I stopped trying to fight with that voice that says, What if this?
10:43
Speaker: What if that?
10:43
Speaker: What if you're not good enough?
10:44
Speaker: Whatever.
10:45
Speaker: Because just trying to, affirmation yourself through that can be like making up phrases as I go.
10:51
Speaker: That can be, pretty futile.
10:53
Speaker: But instead, that question of how could this be fun took my brain in a totally different direction.
10:57
Speaker: I didn't try to prove my inner critic wrong.
11:01
Speaker: I started to engage in a completely different thing, and from my novice understanding of the brain, creativity and anxiety can't occupy the same space.
11:10
Speaker: So I was in- Yeah ...this very anxious place, and then as soon as she opened the door to more creative thought, I started to have some fun.
11:18
Speaker: My nervous system started to relax.
11:20
Speaker: It didn't mean that I still didn't have some nervousness about how things were gonna go, but she opened a door to something I hadn't even contemplated because I was stuck in that rut of anxiety.
11:31
Speaker: Instead suddenly now I'm thinking about, yeah, how could this be fun?
11:34
Speaker: Maybe I could, you know, interview some people that I love that are close to me.
11:38
Speaker: Maybe I could...
11:39
Speaker: You know, and I started to really get creative with it.
11:41
Speaker: So the power of curiosity was one of the key concepts from the workshop that really stood out for folks.
11:47
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's such a brilliant example of the body believing that it's g- gonna die.
11:55
Speaker: Like, this is, this is an existential question.
11:57
Speaker: Having a podcast means I could die, and you're in that place and somebody says, "How could it be fun?" It's like, "What?
12:04
Speaker: I'm a-- I'm running for my life here-" I'm about to die "...can't you see?" Don't you see the lion that's coming my way?
12:09
Speaker: Yeah.
12:09
Speaker: Yeah.
12:09
Speaker: Exactly And you're like, "Well, let's have some fun." Yeah, and it feels that dire, but I love how you were able to change tracks.
12:19
Speaker: Yeah, and, and that's the key to remember those things when you're in those moments, and that's where it really helps to have a friend or a really good coach, um, that can remind you or that can redirect.
12:31
Speaker: But speaking of existential fear, I know one of the other things we were gonna talk about was the book The Big Leap, that you recommended to me and I know we've both read, and I believe that is one of the concepts in the book.
12:44
Speaker: There were two concepts that really stood out for me.
12:46
Speaker: I'll speak to the one and then I'll be curious what stood out for you and what you took away from that book.
12:51
Speaker: But They talk about how that fear of being ostracized is something that is deeply embedded, in us, you know, from an evolutionary perspective because if you were ostracized from the tribe or from the clan, it could lead to literal death because you needed that whole community to survive.
13:12
Speaker: And that still is in us.
13:14
Speaker: So when we fear judgment, when we fear that we might lose friendships, um, you know, and that can often happen when we launch something new or we think we're rising above maybe what some of our friends or family have achieved, then it can feel so intense.
13:34
Speaker: And I never understood why the fear was so intense, but you- you're pointing to it when you said, like, that, that existential fear.
13:42
Speaker: And I found that very helpful to just understand.
13:45
Speaker: That was one of the concepts from The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks that really stood out for me.
13:49
Speaker: I'm curious, you know, what you took from that book and what, if anything, you're applying in your life as a result.
13:57
Speaker: Yeah, I think you're really describing expansion.
14:01
Speaker: And one of the things I learned in coaching is that we think that success, whatever we're doing, is gonna look like a hockey stick.
14:13
Speaker: It's gonna have a little curve at the bottom when we're getting started, and then it's gonna be up, up, up, up, up from there, and only up.
14:20
Speaker: But the more realistic expectation is these spikes and dips and spikes and dips and spikes and dips.
14:27
Speaker: Not that it's constantly dipping down as low as it was at the beginning, right?
14:32
Speaker: But we reach a peak and then a little plateau, and then a peak and a little plateau, and that's actually what expansion looks like.
14:43
Speaker: And what I learned from that book is how to expand, really.
14:50
Speaker: We can, we can either be expanding or we can be shrinking.
14:55
Speaker: One of the things I noticed growing up is that people who had reached a certain age And I didn't have a number attached to it, but I could observe that people who had reached a certain age began to shrink.
15:10
Speaker: Hmm.
15:10
Speaker: They began to fear others.
15:13
Speaker: They began to fear the outside.
15:17
Speaker: They began to fear driving at night, so everything was day-focused, you know.
15:21
Speaker: And sometimes there were m- you know, medical reasons for that.
15:24
Speaker: But I was very curious about this shrinking, and it occurred to me, I think when I was a young woman in my 20s, that if I am not intentionally growing, doing something that scares me a little bit on a regular basis, that I can expect to shrink.
15:48
Speaker: I can expect my circle of influence to shrink.
15:52
Speaker: I can expect my worldview to shrink, and I didn't want that for myself.
15:59
Speaker: And my-- I think my biggest takeaway from The Big Leap is the ultimate success mantra, and I have been saying it every day to myself in the mirror since I read that book.
16:14
Speaker: I love it so much, and it goes like this: "I expand in abundance, success, and love every day as I inspire those around me to do the same." And we can expect that as we expand, as our heart opens, as we See more options for ourselves and more possibilities for ourselves, and we begin to trust that expansion, that there...
16:43
Speaker: We will hit an upper limit problem.
16:45
Speaker: That- Mm some part of us will go Like I live in the desert.
16:50
Speaker: There are prairie dogs here, and as I'm getting on the on-ramp to the highway, I'll see a little head pop up from a hole and then pop back down again because there's a car there, right?
17:00
Speaker: That's what prairie dogs do.
17:02
Speaker: They get a little courage, they put their head up, and then they hop back down into their holes to make sure that they're safe.
17:08
Speaker: And sometimes I feel like that prairie dog.
17:10
Speaker: As I expand, I make a courageous decision, and then it's kind of easy to get a courage hangover after that and pop down into my hole and go, "Oh no, what did I just do?" And podcasting is a lot like that.
17:24
Speaker: So the book really helped me to keep expansion top of mind and know that that's not always comfortable, and I can do it in a way that is intentional and brings my nervous system along for the ride rather than banishing it and saying, "No, you're not allowed here.
17:46
Speaker: I'm just gonna white-knuckle my way through it," because I think there was a lot of that in the fundraising world, and it ha- it does have a cost to it.
17:56
Speaker: So I want to be more gentle with myself and still be growing but also be doing that in a way that acknowledges that I have a body, I have a nervous system, and that there are sometimes emotions that come up with this, right?
18:12
Speaker: So how can I do both, expand and also nurture and take care of myself as I go?
18:19
Speaker: Wow.
18:20
Speaker: So I want to dig into the cost piece a little bit, but before I get there I just have to say I promise you I read that book, and I don't remember it explained in such a profound way.
18:33
Speaker: At least it didn't, it didn't hit me like what you've just explained.
18:37
Speaker: And I'm thinking about the fact that, all my life I've heard this concept of two steps forward, one step back, but I've never really stopped to think about what that means or why that even happens, and I feel like you've just explained it in 60 seconds or less just why that, why that takes place nor have I thought about the fact of the shrinking in that way.
18:59
Speaker: Like I know from the fact that I work out the notion that if you're not building muscle, you're not just staying stagnant, you're actually It's, it's atrophying.
19:09
Speaker: Yeah.
19:09
Speaker: And I never really thought about that in my own life.
19:12
Speaker: I just thought, "Well, maybe I can just, you know, go with the flow, status quo." But- Yeah you're reminding me that if we're not growing, we're not just staying stagnant, we're actually shrinking And that just really struck me.
19:25
Speaker: So I just, I had to mention thank you.
19:27
Speaker: Thank you for explaining it that way.
19:28
Speaker: That gives me even more impetus to keep going on those days where feels especially hard to try to come up against Yeah the limits of our expansion or what our nervous system can hold.
19:38
Speaker: But I'd love to hear a little bit more.
19:40
Speaker: You talked about the cost a couple of times now, you know, at what cost do we push and maybe we try to white knuckle, our way through things.
19:50
Speaker: So I would love to hear more about either a belief or a pattern in your life that you recognized was unhelpful or something that you disliked, but you also recognize it was serving you in some way.
20:04
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a really, that's a really big question.
20:08
Speaker: Even the stuff we don't like about ourselves is there for a reason.
20:14
Speaker: Mm And we can get down on ourselves and say, "Ugh, here I am doing this thing again that I said I wasn't gonna do, and I'm doing it again." And it really comes back to what you started this conversation with, which is curiosity.
20:31
Speaker: Wondering, "What does this thing I don't like get for me?" Hmm.
20:39
Speaker: And I really think in fundraising it tends to, at least this was my experience, I can't speak for the whole profession, but I think it tends to attract people who want to do something good, who want to advance a cause, and who don't necessarily want to be the star of the show.
21:02
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
21:03
Speaker: That was at least the case for me.
21:06
Speaker: And so I never was really curious until I was on the other side, out...
21:12
Speaker: Until I was out of fundraising, about why it was so important for me to advance somebody else's dream.
21:20
Speaker: Why it was so important for me to advance somebody else's mission.
21:25
Speaker: And the reality was, I took an early lesson from my family of origin.
21:34
Speaker: Never was explicitly told, but this is the lesson I caught from it, that my needs were best met when I didn't have needs.
21:44
Speaker: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh.
21:47
Speaker: Just that- Yeah just, yeah, I can so relate.
21:49
Speaker: Yes.
21:50
Speaker: Yeah.
21:51
Speaker: So be helpful to others.
21:53
Speaker: Don't demand, don't ask for too much.
21:58
Speaker: Don't ask for really anything.
22:01
Speaker: It was a fight, in other words, when it came time to do back to school shopping because I was, I had so flexed and built up the muscle of I don't need anything, that my parents having to wrestle me into buying a pair of shoes and new clothes for school, because I was so well versed in I don't need anything.
22:27
Speaker: I don't need anything here.
22:28
Speaker: I don't need that, right?
22:30
Speaker: I re- remember we would go on vacation and they would say, "Okay kids, go into the souvenir shop.
22:38
Speaker: Everybody picks out one thing." There are four of us, and I would be convinced that I would be the kid that wouldn't pick anything out because I didn't need anything.
22:48
Speaker: And they would have to say, "Everybody get something.
22:52
Speaker: Go back in there and get something," right?
22:55
Speaker: 'Cause they didn't want unequal treatment.
22:57
Speaker: That was a, that was, you know, something they were trying to be fair about.
23:00
Speaker: So what does this have to do with fundraising?
23:05
Speaker: Well, that pattern of I don't need anything unquestioned can turn very easily for me into a career of I'm asking for money for this worthy cause not for myself, and in fact I'm being not very well compensated for this work.
23:25
Speaker: And from that dynamic of I have a sense of righteousness because I'm doing this good thing and look how little I'm getting paid for it That was a f- that was a bolster.
23:41
Speaker: That was a, um, a tool for me because it was being driven by a feeling of unworthiness.
23:49
Speaker: So never having questioned the unworthiness that I put together from my childhood and brought into my career, I get this dynamic where here I am busting my hump to raise all this money, and why am I not being appreciated?
24:06
Speaker: Right?
24:06
Speaker: Because the other side of that coin of righteousness is resentment.
24:12
Speaker: I was just gonna say bitterness Yeah, bitterness, that I'm not being acknowledged or I'm not being compensated or I'm not being seen as the w- the sacrificer that I actually am, right?
24:26
Speaker: So it's not a...
24:28
Speaker: That's a pattern.
24:29
Speaker: Mm.
24:30
Speaker: Right?
24:30
Speaker: I feel unworthy.
24:33
Speaker: I don't ask for what my peers are getting.
24:36
Speaker: I accept less, and then I resent you for giving me less.
24:40
Speaker: So it's a cycle, and it's very unsatisfying.
24:44
Speaker: But there's a belief underneath all of that that it's safer to accept less and be resentful than to overask and be told, "Who do you think you are?
24:58
Speaker: You're fired.
24:59
Speaker: Get out of here." Hmm.
25:01
Speaker: I was so afraid of that dynamic, that I accepted less and I judged people for it, and that's like eating poison and hoping that the person you're hating gets sick.
25:11
Speaker: No, you're doing that to yourself.
25:13
Speaker: So that's a, that's a real example of a pattern that I didn't like but I was using in my career to stay safe from being judged by others, right?
25:27
Speaker: I'd rather be the one judging you than you judging me, so I feel like even though it makes me...
25:31
Speaker: I'm eating poison over here, it makes me feel more comfortable than, than if my fate was in your hands as my boss.
25:40
Speaker: That is so incredibly seductive and sneaky, and interestingly enough, like even though underneath you're saying there was this fear of being unworthy and of being judged, but I wonder if it allowed you to feel superior- Yeah in some ways to other, 'cause look how hard I'm working and nobody's appreciating it, you know?
26:00
Speaker: Absolutely.
26:01
Speaker: So that's really- Absolutely wow.
26:04
Speaker: And it all comes down to this inner voice of who we think we are and who is actually running the show.
26:10
Speaker: I love that you talked earlier about this, having some of those inner voices come up when you had, uh, thought about h- starting a podcast, right?
26:21
Speaker: And just sort of like the familiar slideshow starts running.
26:25
Speaker: Fire up the projector.
26:27
Speaker: Who do you think you are?
26:28
Speaker: You can't start a podcast.
26:30
Speaker: What if nobody listens, right?
26:31
Speaker: That, that slideshow started- And you were able to, uh, your dear friend was able to truncate that by asking about curiosity, and I love how you took that.
26:42
Speaker: Uh, and you were able to apply that immediately.
26:45
Speaker: And I, and I want to ask you about that because that is, I think, so essential to your podcast, is really...
26:54
Speaker: You call it Banish the Lies, and it's one of those titles that, at least for me, immediately made sense.
27:01
Speaker: Like, "Oh, yes, I know what this is." And we all have an inner voice, but most of us just don't notice it.
27:08
Speaker: We think, "Oh, it's just me.
27:10
Speaker: This is me." Mm-hmm.
27:11
Speaker: And I know for me, it got a lot quieter in my head when I learned some tools, like you were talking about getting curious, about the beliefs I've been carrying around.
27:22
Speaker: Why is it, why is this piece what you decided to tackle?
27:27
Speaker: The idea of the inner monologue and made that so central to your podcast I mean, in a nutshell I feel like it's been my life's work.
27:38
Speaker: My life's unpaid work.
27:40
Speaker: I feel like I have multiple PhDs in just trying to find freedom from the captivity of that inner voice and what's interesting is that I've led a lifetime of not even recognizing that it was a voice meaning that there was this inner narration that I was constantly listening to but I mistook it for not only the truth but just, just me.
28:07
Speaker: There was no separation between me and the voice.
28:09
Speaker: That was just my shortcomings.
28:12
Speaker: That was just my personality.
28:13
Speaker: You know all the overthinking, all the perfectionism.
28:16
Speaker: I just.
28:17
Speaker: I think fundamentally I felt like I was terribly broken.
28:20
Speaker: I think, you know, not to go into too much detail but some of the experiences from my family of origin like you were referencing, you know, the type of feedback I got, the type of discipline I received; it lead me to believe that these things that I felt were so harsh: the criticism, the spanking, the whatever Would not be happening unless there was something very fundamentally wrong with me.
28:45
Speaker: And I just lived life like that without examining it.
28:49
Speaker: But thankfully, eventually I realized that, um, there is a distinction between this voice and who I am, and that I could see where I had taken on other people's beliefs, where this voice had started to form, essentially protection strategies like what you described, right?
29:11
Speaker: You were so afraid of being judged for maybe not being good enough that you did work that you were under-compensated for, and you focused on realizing other people's dreams instead of your own.
29:20
Speaker: So we develop these voices, we develop these strategies to keep us safe from something.
29:24
Speaker: So I felt like after so many years of struggling with this and doing all the things, all the therapy, the retreats, the meditation, the books, the modalities, all these things, I finally had gotten to a point where maybe, just maybe, I was one step of h- ahead of that younger version of Tania, and that that, what I've learned in that process could, you know, be of service to other people.
29:51
Speaker: I kinda think about it like...
29:53
Speaker: Sorry, the image that just popped in right now is if you've ever run on a beach, running in sand Mm is really exhausting, right?
30:02
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
30:02
Speaker: So I'd been running on sand thinking, and seeing all these people passing on the pavement thinking like, "What's wrong with me?" Like everybody else is stronger, more resilient, faster.
30:13
Speaker: I'm slow, I'm exhausted.
30:14
Speaker: What's the issue?
30:15
Speaker: But I never saw the sand, and it, and, and in the analogy that popped in, the sand is all the self-criticism, the self-deprecation.
30:22
Speaker: Wow.
30:22
Speaker: You know?
30:23
Speaker: And that really the goal was never to become a better runner.
30:26
Speaker: There's nothing wrong with my legs.
30:27
Speaker: Hm.
30:28
Speaker: The goal was to step on more stable terrain which I think can be founded on things like, self-compassion and remembering that the essence of who Tania is is, is whole and is not broken.
30:44
Speaker: You know?
30:44
Speaker: That, that is who I've always been before all these life occurrences and, and that- That's right really, um, really harsh, really mean sometimes inner critic came to join.
30:57
Speaker: So I thought if I can- Provide any level of reprieve or help someone come to that awareness maybe a little faster than they would on their own, then, that would, that would just be fantastic.
31:11
Speaker: I love that.
31:13
Speaker: I have never heard that before.
31:15
Speaker: Running on sand and- Yeah, I don't know why that just popped in my head looking over at the people on pavement and being like, "How is it so much easier for you?" Yeah.
31:24
Speaker: That's really beautiful.
31:26
Speaker: It's about the surface that's underneath everything, and the, the curious one is in there just like the critical one.
31:35
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
31:36
Speaker: Yeah.
31:37
Speaker: Yep.
31:39
Speaker: Absolutely.
31:40
Speaker: Oh, that's beautiful.
31:41
Speaker: Yeah.
31:42
Speaker: And, you talk about banish the lies and the title of it.
31:46
Speaker: I guess the one thing I wanted to add is I do I'm- I'm pretty partial to the title.
31:51
Speaker: Obviously, I selected it, but it's a bit of a misnomer.
31:54
Speaker: Um, you know, there's something satisfying about saying we're banishing the lies.
31:59
Speaker: It feels powerful.
32:00
Speaker: But the truth is we're not really banishing that part of ourselves, right?
32:05
Speaker: And I talk about awareness and compassion and, and you talk about bringing your nervous system with you.
32:10
Speaker: Well, we can bring that inner narrator with us.
32:13
Speaker: We can bring those scared parts with us.
32:15
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
32:15
Speaker: We're not necessarily banishing them to the outer edges of the universe.
32:20
Speaker: And, and honestly sometimes I literally start talking to those parts of myself, like ah, not today.
32:28
Speaker: Not today.
32:28
Speaker: We're not going there.
32:29
Speaker: Um, you know, when it's something that's not in service of where I want to take my life and how I want to be showing up in the world.
32:38
Speaker: So.
32:39
Speaker: Yeah, I had a thing like that happen this morning.
32:43
Speaker: I was in a space of really having just- just kind of an open visualization time, and this is something I do every morning.
32:56
Speaker: And to be honest, it's been a real challenge for me because I can see things going well in my day, and I start that way.
33:06
Speaker: Hm.
33:07
Speaker: But then beyond that, like seeing myself doing big things, achieving big things, it gets a little foggy there for me.
33:14
Speaker: And I think, "Oh no, what if I visualize this thing that I turns out I don't like?" And I don't want to But I was, I was...
33:27
Speaker: I had a thought about doing something that I'd never really had a thought about doing before and I was just like immediately, "Oh, I could never do that." Mm.
33:37
Speaker: "I could never do that." And I felt really proud of myself because I was able to see that as a thought not as a fact.
33:46
Speaker: Woo-hoo.
33:47
Speaker: I'm raising my hands over here.
33:48
Speaker: Yeah.
33:49
Speaker: It felt really big like okay yeah you're here too and I know you want to keep me safe and that's okay thank you for being here and um, and seeing the safety and knowing that I might decide to do that someday I might never decided o do that but I didn't let it get that shudder of ohh I could never do that that would be so bad and have that have the last word.
34:16
Speaker: I love that so much.
34:18
Speaker: That is so powerful and you know what it reminds me of something we talked about before under another context its just that notion of how often we have to confront that feeling of i'm not ready and how n- that voice we can let that voice win We can let that voice be an excuse not move forward because we are waiting to feel ready in order to take a step towards the vision and towards the dream when in reality it's our actions that can build the evidence and confidence to move forward So im curious Just on the tails of what you described about that big vision How that--how that idea has played out in your life?
35:00
Speaker: I once had a coach When I was in training For coaching I once had a coach Tell me to write this Really big across The top of my page Ready Is not A feeling Its And I was like, "Oh my gosh.
35:21
Speaker: It's not a feeling?" Wait, what?
35:24
Speaker: Yeah.
35:25
Speaker: I've been waiting all these years- It kind of blew my mind to feel something that is not a feeling.
35:29
Speaker: Because I w- I could see the n- number of times when I was waiting for the feeling of ready- Mm-hmm to take a step forward rather than, um, doing it scared or understanding that I would be able to build evidence of readiness by taking action.
35:53
Speaker: One of the tools I use in my coaching practice is the Enneagram.
36:00
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
36:00
Speaker: And it's something that I hadn't You know, I've just recently started taking on board and using with people, and I find that I'm able to dive right in with the client's core fear and core desire.
36:17
Speaker: And we're able to actually limit our number of sessions because that cuts so deep and answers a lot of We, we're able to dive below the surface by using that tool.
36:29
Speaker: And for me, I'm an Enneagram nine which is the diplomat archetype.
36:34
Speaker: It's the, it's the person who can see all sides of an issue.
36:40
Speaker: Hmm.
36:40
Speaker: So the superpower there is really being able to nonjudgmentally connect with people and have them feel really seen and heard and not judged.
36:54
Speaker: And the, the shadow side of that is I can see so many possibilities, I can't possibly take action.
37:02
Speaker: Hmm.
37:03
Speaker: Because there's too many ways I could go, right?
37:06
Speaker: Yep.
37:06
Speaker: So let me just, let me just be in a in a stasis because I don't feel like any way is the right way 'cause they could all work or they could all fail, right?
37:20
Speaker: So it's a, it's a sort of a paralyzing effect but that's also a story Because if I believe that there's gonna be some kind of punishment if I choose the wrong thing, then of course I'm not gonna take action.
37:36
Speaker: Y- I'm doing the smart thing and staying safe.
37:38
Speaker: I'm staying, you know, hidden and staying home, right?
37:43
Speaker: I'm staying under my umbrella and not getting the big, uh, bonk on the head from whoever by making the wrong decision in life.
37:54
Speaker: So it's a, it's a real practice of action building evidence.
38:02
Speaker: Oh, I did a new thing; I didn't die.
38:05
Speaker: That I coulda done this part in a different way.
38:09
Speaker: And that's also something I, I learned from The Big Leap.
38:13
Speaker: You know, he was talking about accepting compliments, right?
38:17
Speaker: Mm.
38:17
Speaker: We want, we want all this abundance to flow in, but can we even do the small thing of accept a compliment?
38:23
Speaker: And he was talking about golf, which I don't play, and talking about complimenting someone on their shot and having that person say, "Ugh, m- I didn't like the way I did that.
38:36
Speaker: I missed the this, and I didn't so the that." I don't know the terms.
38:39
Speaker: But how that The illusion that the golfer is under, the trance the golfer is under, is that I'm not gonna...
38:50
Speaker: Um, I- I'm making myself grounded.
38:53
Speaker: I'm making myself relatable by saying what I did wrong and I'm making myself less of a threat to you, uh, my fellow golfer by not taking your compliment.
39:02
Speaker: But what the complementor is showing, is seeing is that that person is not accepting the small amount of abundance that's trying to come in.
39:14
Speaker: And that, and that they're also putting a wedge between the complementor and the complemented because they didn't accept their compliment The way that he gave, uh, as an example would be to say, "Thanks! Yeah, I really wish I'd done this differently but I appreciate that.
39:32
Speaker: I appreciate you saying that." You can do both right?
39:35
Speaker: Point out what you wish you had done differently and also stay open to the goodness of the world coming at you.
39:44
Speaker: And so that's kind of a, a, a long answer to a short question.
39:50
Speaker: But that consistently taking action and building evidence that I can do a hard thing and I can fail and not have it have dire consequences for my life is a practice.
40:04
Speaker: It's just like building a muscle.
40:05
Speaker: There are so many things I can comment on in that.
40:10
Speaker: Uh, you've said so much going back to seeing all the different possibilities and then sort of being paralyzed in the face of them.
40:17
Speaker: I have lived that quite a bit and I've been operating this belief that there is a better choice, like there is a ultimately a right choice.
40:29
Speaker: And it's so exhausting and there's like a lack of permission to just play and let life give you feedback as to whether that was quote unquote the best choice for you Not to mention What's right for me might not be right for you And this is where I have caught myself you know Being on Amazon and and reading reviews Like I have honestly Honest to God Can't even remember what it was That I was purchasing I kid you not I think I spent three hours Reading reviews and Also deciding that other people's experiences Of everything Represent the truth When there's so Many different factors Going on At play which ironically doesn't matter how much re- research or whatever, whoever you talk to, still could go wrong.
41:11
Speaker: Um, so just trusting that you can move forward and you can course correct because few choices thankfully are life and death, right?
41:23
Speaker: Yeah.
41:24
Speaker: And, and I, I really took away s- what someone told me about that Perfectionism is the misunderstanding that if we take action, it's gonna cause us pain.
41:38
Speaker: Mm.
41:39
Speaker: And so by not taking action, by delaying the hitting the send button or hitting the purchase button, we're holding at bay that perceived pain we're gonna feel if we make the wrong choice and take, take the wrong action.
41:56
Speaker: So it's really underneath it a desire for safety.
42:01
Speaker: And we can notice if we have a, a level of mastery from kind of coming up against this block more than once, we can start to notice I'm trying to get safe by burying myself in research, and believe me, I have been there, especially when a, when it's like a high-ticket thing like a vacation.
42:23
Speaker: Believe me, I read all the reviews.
42:24
Speaker: And we can think, "Okay, what am I trying to offer myself through this behavior that I don't really like right now?
42:31
Speaker: This, this digging and digging." Oh, I'm trying to offer myself safety.
42:36
Speaker: Is there a better way I can offer myself safety?
42:39
Speaker: Well, let's think about that.
42:40
Speaker: I feel really safe when I get quiet with my thoughts, when I turn off all the audio stimulation, all the video simulation, and I just take a moment and sit with myself.
42:52
Speaker: I feel really safe.
42:54
Speaker: Maybe I can do that and then come back to this.
42:57
Speaker: You know, you're reminding me of something that I believe I talked about in one of my podcast episodes.
43:02
Speaker: I always thought that what I was fearing was making the wrong mistake, and certainly in some situations like, you know, God forbid, you're having to choose, between treatments on, a, a condition that's very serious.
43:17
Speaker: Well, in that case, you know, I don't want to belittle it.
43:20
Speaker: That, that is something to really take your time with.
43:22
Speaker: But in most cases, whether it's a vacation, it's a new pair of running shoes, whatever it is, it isn't even so much choosing the wrong thing or the wrong vacation destination, it's what I'm going to tell myself if I feel I've made the wrong choice.
43:40
Speaker: So I arrive at the destination, the food's not as good as I thought, this is not going right.
43:44
Speaker: It's the self-deprecation.
43:47
Speaker: It's the beating up.
43:47
Speaker: I should have known better.
43:48
Speaker: H- you know, why did I choose this one?
43:50
Speaker: My, my gut told me to choose that one, but I, you know, blah, blah, blah.
43:54
Speaker: It's that inner dialogue, that insanity that ensues afterwards.
43:59
Speaker: So part of it is the actual choice itself, but then part of it is the beating up that happens if I perceive that, ugh, I've made the wrong choice.
44:08
Speaker: And that, I think, is what I get really afraid of.
44:11
Speaker: And that is something I have control over.
44:13
Speaker: So when you say how can you make it more safe?
44:16
Speaker: That's what made me think about that.
44:17
Speaker: Well, how about speaking with greater kindness?
44:22
Speaker: Um, recognizing everything you did do to try to make the best choice you could with the information available, and then life shows up the way it's gonna show up.
44:31
Speaker: Yeah.
44:32
Speaker: I think that's so normal.
44:33
Speaker: I think that is so human and so innocent to, to want to be insulated from the feeling of having messed up.
44:41
Speaker: It's so, so relatable.
44:45
Speaker: And I think there is that, that little kid who was like, "I can't get it wrong.
44:51
Speaker: I'm gonna get punished." I don't know if that was your experience, but that certainly resonates with me.
44:57
Speaker: You know, she didn't go anywhere.
44:59
Speaker: She's still in there.
45:01
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
45:01
Speaker: And for me, she sounds the alarm when something feels unsafe, like that's too big of a leap.
45:09
Speaker: I think it's really normal for us to have a part of ourselves that wants to grow and a part that wants to stay safe.
45:17
Speaker: And for me, so much of the work has been about The one that wants to stay safe, getting kinder to her- Mm-hmm rather than being like, "No, you're shoved in a closet.
45:30
Speaker: I'm not listening to you." "Stop it, stop it, stop it," because that's like pushing a beach ball under water and it just pops right back up every time.
45:38
Speaker: So- Mm-hmm I've been learning how to bring her in and actually hear from her, like give her a voice and be able to be like, "Okay, great." And, and what's it like to hold onto, to give a big hug to the little kid version of you that's crying and upset, and just being like, "Yeah, you get to have your feelings," right?
46:06
Speaker: I, I hadn't seen that modeled for me until I had s-...
46:13
Speaker: I had a family member doing this with a young person in my life, and that young person was doing what would in my house growing up be punished as a tantrum.
46:23
Speaker: Oh.
46:23
Speaker: And it wasn't that.
46:24
Speaker: It's like parenting changed while I wasn't looking, you know?
46:29
Speaker: And, and I saw their parents saying, "Would you like a hug?" Hmm.
46:35
Speaker: You know?
46:36
Speaker: Let Just standing right there with them, and the little one did not want a hug.
46:39
Speaker: Okay.
46:39
Speaker: So they didn't scoop them up.
46:41
Speaker: They didn't time them out.
46:42
Speaker: They just allowed space for the emotion, gave a couple of options.
46:47
Speaker: Did not give in 'cause of course they wanted their tablet.
46:50
Speaker: Did not give in to the demand but h- allowed a lot of space for the emotion to come up, and it was so brilliant.
47:02
Speaker: And for me, I'm like taking that into my own practice with myself.
47:07
Speaker: When my little one is freaking out, I want to hold her.
47:10
Speaker: I want to be with her and allow her to express and listen rather than be like, "This is inconvenient.
47:17
Speaker: We're in the middle of the supermarket"- or whatever it was, you know- Yeah when I had a tantrum as a little one.
47:21
Speaker: But I wonder if that r- if you can relate to that at all, the part that wants to grow and the part that wants to stay small, and how you've been navigating that.
47:30
Speaker: Like, what's been working for you?
47:32
Speaker: I can't relate at all.
47:34
Speaker: I'm sorry.
47:34
Speaker: Um.
47:35
Speaker: No, I can relate in a big way.
47:39
Speaker: And I don't know if that part ever really goes away.
47:44
Speaker: Um, I still have that part that is tempted to stay small, stay safe, the one who wants to over prepare, the one who wants to wait till she feels ready despite now understanding that that's actually not a feeling, so thank you for that insight.
47:58
Speaker: And I think that fortunately I got to a point in my life where the pain of staying small, outweighed the fear of, of growing.
48:09
Speaker: Now, that does not mean that I wake up every day feeling brave, far from it.
48:15
Speaker: But what I have noticed is I've become less willing to live out of alignment with what I know to be true now.
48:25
Speaker: So that's, that's the gift and the double-edged sword of awareness, right?
48:29
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
48:29
Speaker: Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
48:30
Speaker: And with, you know, knowledge comes great responsibility, I suppose.
48:35
Speaker: But I think one of the things that I've stopped doing, I think I used to try to like muster up the courage to do something because I thought being courageous meant taking the big leaps and doing the big things.
48:48
Speaker: And now sometimes particularly when it comes to something that is really having me question myself or shake in my boots, sometimes I just ask like what is one small step?
49:00
Speaker: So here's a small example.
49:03
Speaker: Um, you know, maybe if I'm nervous about inviting a particular guest onto my podcast, maybe the first step is simply to research this person's work and start to get more comfortable with who they are and what they have out in the world.
49:18
Speaker: Or maybe it's, um, crafting the invitation, email that I'm going to send them.
49:24
Speaker: Not necessarily hitting Send, but just starting because I think with every micro action, no matter how small, it's very calming because there's something very uncomfortable and painful with staying stuck.
49:38
Speaker: And even taking a small step I think is calming because you've got a bit of that momentum, and as we kind of pointed to earlier, that it's through action that we start to create some evidence that, hey, maybe I can do this.
49:51
Speaker: Maybe it's not so scary.
49:53
Speaker: Maybe I can break this down.
49:54
Speaker: And with every step, I think that's what really rewires the brain, and it's through the action that we create the confidence And I think that's really what I've tried to focus on.
50:07
Speaker: I mean, a lot of the time I still don't feel ready.
50:09
Speaker: Like, that conference that I gave, I was still nervous.
50:12
Speaker: I was still up at 4:00 AM reviewing my notes.
50:14
Speaker: But you can start to see progress with the more presentations.
50:18
Speaker: It used to be that, three months in advance I'd already start having, like, a little bit of a freak-out, and then it became, you one month, and then it became a week, and now it's sort of like the night before or the morning of.
50:28
Speaker: So I can, I can acknowledge the growth while still recognizing it's completely normal to still feel nervous, and not to confuse nervousness with inability or with a lack of readiness.
50:42
Speaker: Um, those are two things that I had entangled, and they're not the same.
50:47
Speaker: So how about, how about you?
50:50
Speaker: I love that.
50:52
Speaker: Yeah, that's really beautiful.
50:54
Speaker: And I, I think for me the image that I have when fear is loudest is of a- my little kid driving the bus of my life freaking out that I'm not qualified to be here in the driver's seat and blah, you know?
51:16
Speaker: And I picture myself having a conversation with that little one and saying, "Oh sweetheart, you get to be here.
51:23
Speaker: I'm not kicking you off the bus.
51:25
Speaker: You get to be here on this bus, and let's put you in a really cozy seat on the bus with blankets and pillows and stuffies, and you get to have a nap if you want it, and you don't need to drive, my love." The, the big me gets to drive, the one who is curious and has her own business gets to drive, and it's just a misunderstanding that she's being asked to do more than she is able to do.
51:57
Speaker: And for me, that's...
51:58
Speaker: there's a big release with that.
52:00
Speaker: Ah, it feels like I can exhale again.
52:04
Speaker: I love that so much because how often do we fight against those parts, you know?
52:09
Speaker: We make them wrong when they're very human.
52:11
Speaker: And it also reminds me, I- and I know this is an audio podcast, um, so listeners can't see what I'm referring to, but I keep this picture, um, by my desk, and I'll just describe it.
52:22
Speaker: It's, it's me at about six years old.
52:25
Speaker: I'm holding a little fluffy bunny, and why I keep this particular photo is this I absolutely hate my haircut.
52:33
Speaker: This is, like, the ti- my mom w- just had one of those bowl cuts done to me.
52:36
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
52:36
Speaker: And I had a very round chubby face, so that just made it even worse.
52:40
Speaker: And, you know, I started to gain a little weight around this age.
52:43
Speaker: This is the age where I started to become really self-conscious, and really this is where I think the inner narrator started to get very loud.
52:51
Speaker: So I keep her here on my desk because sometimes what seems to me as just a tiny step I remind myself that that little girl would probably be amazed by the life that I'm living now, even though sometimes I don't feel brave enough.
53:08
Speaker: Sometimes I compare myself to others that I think are doing so much more in the world.
53:13
Speaker: But there was a time where I was so feeling so broken, and even times where I was feeling flat-out depressed, that I couldn't see a future for myself.
53:26
Speaker: So keeping her there, you know, we can partner and say, "You know what?
53:30
Speaker: Things turned out better than we thought, and I'm taking you along, and it's safe now.
53:34
Speaker: And yes, I can take care of you.
53:36
Speaker: I'm a resourced adult." So, your comment reminded me of why I keep this picture here, to remind her I'm here and she's not in this alone.
53:45
Speaker: And together with compassion instead of self-judgment, we can do so much more and have a lot more fun doing it.
53:52
Speaker: I love that, and I want to thank you for doing that work for yourself, for your little one.
53:58
Speaker: It translates to you being able to push record on a podcast which is l- bringing light to so many, and I want to thank you for doing that work, for showing up for yourself, showing up for your little one with compassion, and putting this beautiful creation out into the world, Banish the Lies.
54:20
Speaker: It is truly an honor to be in conversation with you, and I'd love for you to share with my audience how people can find you.
54:28
Speaker: Yeah.
54:30
Speaker: Well, um, obviously Banish The Lies: Outsmart Your Inner Critic is the name of my podcast, and you can find it pretty much anywhere that you listen to podcasts.
54:39
Speaker: And I would love to hear from anyone who might want to reach out and have a conversation about this conversation or, questions that you may have, about this topic because I'm always looking for new things to speak about.
54:52
Speaker: So if there's something that spoke to you, you can find me on Instagram.
54:55
Speaker: It's my full name, Tania Cervonii with an underscore at the end.
54:58
Speaker: And you can also send me fan mail through, Apple or Spotify.
55:02
Speaker: I love hearing from people.
55:03
Speaker: I love hearing what resonates.
55:04
Speaker: And, I just want to thank you on behalf of myself and all the people who listen because it's really powerful work, and I know that you do a lot of coaching so I would love if you could share where folks could find you and what kind of support you offer to people who may be, you know, tired of walking this path alone, because it can be a lot.
55:24
Speaker: Hmm.
55:25
Speaker: Yeah.
55:26
Speaker: For some people, it is, uh, the right choice for them to work with a coach, and top performers in their fields across whatever those fields are use coaches.
55:37
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
55:37
Speaker: And so I work one-on-one with people, and they can find more about that on Vitalist Coaching.
55:43
Speaker: That's the name of my coaching, and my podcast is called The Brave and Balanced Fundraiser, and you can find it anywhere you find your podcasts.
55:54
Speaker: Tania, I want to thank you so much for being here with me today.
55:58
Speaker: Thank you for the invitation, and I'm glad to have this conversation.
56:02
Speaker: I can't wait to put it out in the world
56:08
Tania: Thanks for listening to Banish The Lies.
56:10
Tania: If today's episode resonated with you, take a moment to let it settle in.
56:14
Tania: And maybe share it with a friend who could use it too.
56:17
Tania: Lies, lose their power when we're brave enough to challenge them.
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Tania: I'm Tania Cervoni, and until next time, be kind to yourself.
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Tania: And remember, you're not broken, you're not alone, and you don't have to stay stuck.