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Ensouling the Effigy with Matthew Venus · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we're getting into
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: one of the oldest and strangest ideas in magic, the
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  Speaker 1: belief that an object can become more than an object
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  Speaker 1: a dull, a poppet, a vessel, a mask, a figure,
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  Speaker 1: a charm, a bone, a bundle of cloth and herbs.
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  Speaker 1: In the hands of the witch, these things are not
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  Speaker 1: just symbols. They can become bodies, they can become houses,
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  Speaker 1: they can become points of contact between the visible world
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  Speaker 1: and the spirit. Wilth Our guest today is Matthew Venus,
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  Speaker 1: traditional witch artist, folk magician, teacher and author of Insuling
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the Effie, the Witch's art of inspirited objects. His work
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  Speaker 1: goes deep into poppets, effigies, spirit, vessels, animism, fetish graft
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  Speaker 1: in the magical process by which matter is shaped, awakened, fed, worked,
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  Speaker 1: and brought into relationship with spirit. This is not just
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  Speaker 1: sympathetic magic in the simple sense of making a doll
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  Speaker 1: to represent someone. This is about the deeper occult question
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  Speaker 1: what does it mean to give body to spirit? So
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  Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about the witch as maker,
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  Speaker 1: the object as vessel, the difference between symbol and presence,
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  Speaker 1: the ethics of effigy work, the role of plants and materia,
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  Speaker 1: and why the magical imagination has always returned to the
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  Speaker 1: same terrifying and beautiful idea that the world is alive
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  Speaker 1: and that the things we create may begin to look
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  Speaker 1: back at us. Matthew, thank you so much for coming on.
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  Speaker 1: I know there was a lot that I really left
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  Speaker 1: out that I could have promoted for you, but please
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  Speaker 1: let everybody know, like what else you got to offer
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and everything else you like to promote.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, well, thanks much for having me first, uf I
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  Speaker 2: guess a little bit more about me and kind of
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  Speaker 2: like my relation to all of this in this work.
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  Speaker 2: I've been studying, practicing, you know, learning about and you know,
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  Speaker 2: being involved with magic and witchcraft since I was about
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  Speaker 2: twelve years old. I've been teaching magic and witchcraft in
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  Speaker 2: some form for the past let's see the past, almost
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  Speaker 2: twenty years at this point.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Uh.
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  Speaker 3: And so I also am the owner and.
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  Speaker 2: Lead apothecary of a shop called Spiritus Arcenum that is
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  Speaker 2: s P I R I t U s A R
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  Speaker 2: C A n U M for folks. Setting up familiar,
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  Speaker 2: but we are located just outside of Salem, Massachusetts. Is
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  Speaker 2: where our brick and mortar shop is, and a lot
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  Speaker 2: of what that is is where our business was started
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  Speaker 2: because we I make a lot of handcrafted incenses and
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  Speaker 2: oils made from natural botanicals, essential oils, and major traditional recipes,
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  Speaker 2: and that's really was the new let that started that.
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  Speaker 2: But we also do a lot of things here. We
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  Speaker 2: offer books and tarot and candles and anything that you
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  Speaker 2: could really need for magic and occult works as well
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  Speaker 2: as classes and workshops and things like that online. And
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  Speaker 2: I'm also the co founder and organizer of the Salem
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  Speaker 2: Witchcraft and Folklore Festival, which is a festival that happens
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  Speaker 2: every August, both in person and online.
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  Speaker 3: It's a hybrid thing.
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  Speaker 2: And so we actually host like I think, we're very
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  Speaker 2: blessed to have some of the most amazing occultists and
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  Speaker 2: speakers in folks who do magic as a vocation. Every year,
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  Speaker 2: it's a blessing of riches of the people that we
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  Speaker 2: have presenting as a part of this.
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  Speaker 3: So we have classes.
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  Speaker 2: And workshops and as part of the in person event,
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  Speaker 2: we do things like we do a night of ritual
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  Speaker 2: in the Witch House here in Salem, which is the
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  Speaker 2: last standing building that was associated with the witch trials
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  Speaker 2: and actually where the first accusations were made and to
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  Speaker 2: the best of my knowledge, were the first people that
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  Speaker 2: have been invited and allowed to do witchcraft ritual in
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  Speaker 2: that space. It was one of the houses of one
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  Speaker 2: of the judges, so it's kind of this reclamation of
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  Speaker 2: that space in certain ways, right, And so that's really
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  Speaker 2: an amazing feeling and something that we're really blessed to
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  Speaker 2: be able to do. But we also do a lot
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  Speaker 2: of really fun things like trolley tours around the city
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  Speaker 2: like a sunset cruise. We also have film screenings and
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  Speaker 2: paneled discussions.
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  Speaker 3: Says here. We're going to do The Devil Rides Out
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  Speaker 3: as our movie, which should be really great.
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  Speaker 2: And then we have a Witch's Market and our big Cabaret,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: which is kind of the crowning jewel of everything, where
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: it's a costume party. We have burlesque and drag performers,
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: amazing orders, everyone gets stressed up.
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  Speaker 3: It's an awesome time.
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  Speaker 2: So if you've ever wanted to come to Salem, it's
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  Speaker 2: a good time to come and meet some incredibly awesome people.
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  Speaker 2: Take some amazing classes and just go to some great events.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, but also if you're just curious about it
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  Speaker 2: and curious about some of our presenters and classes, you
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  Speaker 2: can sign up for classes online and catch them live
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  Speaker 2: stream and everything.
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  Speaker 1: That is really wild. Man, that is awesome. That is
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  Speaker 1: so cool that you get to use you get to
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  Speaker 1: go into that house.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, honestly, it's kind of one of
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  Speaker 2: those things where you know, Salem, Massachusetts has been really
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  Speaker 2: known as this kind of mecca for like witchcraft and
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  Speaker 2: things like that, and at the time that we started
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  Speaker 2: doing this conference, there really wasn't something of this sort
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  Speaker 2: that was, you know, providing kind of magical education and
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  Speaker 2: trying to bring people together in that under that particular banner.
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  Speaker 2: We have a lot of tourism, but not a lot
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  Speaker 2: that was like kind of geared towards that specific type
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  Speaker 2: of an event. So it's been really awesome to be
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: able to kind of provide that, create the space for that,
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  Speaker 2: and really bring together like truly amazing folks that are
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  Speaker 2: out here, you know, doing and exploring magic and the
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  Speaker 2: occult and witchcraft and really sincere earnest and very sincere
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: earnest ways, but also people that have like a deep
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  Speaker 2: love and immense amounts of knowledge to share on the topic.
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  Speaker 1: You got your hands on a lot of things, like
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  Speaker 1: that's great.
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  Speaker 3: Gets me busy, It sure does. It gets me very busy.
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  Speaker 1: Have you ever been like at times just been like yo,
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  Speaker 1: how did I get here? Like?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, a lot, a lot.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: I oftentimes think that, like, you know, twelve year old
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  Speaker 2: me would be really thrilled to see you know, everything
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  Speaker 2: that we've gotten up to. I mean, especially like I
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  Speaker 2: really like my shop uh here in Massachusetts is very
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  Speaker 2: much the vibe that I feel like the kind of
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  Speaker 2: shop that twelve year old meat would have been really
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  Speaker 2: really into. And so you know, one of my friends
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  Speaker 2: when they first saw the shop said it reminded them
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  Speaker 2: of the Stephen King Needful Things, And I was like,
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to take that as.
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  Speaker 3: A compliment I would vibe.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, So, I mean, I feel it's interesting when
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  Speaker 2: people when I meet people kind.
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  Speaker 3: Of out in the world and they ask what I do,
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  Speaker 3: and I'll be like.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I'm an event planner, I'm an author, I'm a
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  Speaker 2: retail shop owner, this and that and the other, and
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  Speaker 2: I'm like but at the end of the day, with
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  Speaker 2: that all buzz down to is I'm a professional witch,
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  Speaker 2: you know, so it's an interesting, interesting world to be in.
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  Speaker 1: H Yeah, No, that's that is funny. You do take
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  Speaker 1: on all those roles, right, that's wild very much.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think at least in my realm, it
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  Speaker 2: keeps me very It keeps things interesting, I guess honestly
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  Speaker 2: because it's of course I love magic and witchcraft.
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  Speaker 3: I love teaching.
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  Speaker 2: That's probably the heart of one of my favorite things,
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  Speaker 2: transmission of information and connecting with people in that way.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, all of these things create a very
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  Speaker 2: diverse skill set.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's awesome. How like you got into this
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: at a young age, which I guess we'll kind of
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  Speaker 1: get into next after this. But like you know, again
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  Speaker 1: you were saying, you think if you looked at your back,
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  Speaker 1: at your twelve year old self, you'd be like happy
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  Speaker 1: with it, and like, yo, that's like magical in itself
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  Speaker 1: that you were able to do something that you loved
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  Speaker 1: as a kid and brought it into adulthood. And it's
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  Speaker 1: you know, that's that's amazing, you.
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  Speaker 2: Know to Yeah, it's I mean, it is, it's a
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  Speaker 2: it's just a wonderful thing, you know, And sometimes I
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  Speaker 2: have to remind myself that I think I'm pretty fortunate
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  Speaker 2: to be able to.
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  Speaker 3: Do the things that I do as a vocation.
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  Speaker 2: Because and also, I mean, I think the most the
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  Speaker 2: most wonderful thing is like, you know, being able to
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  Speaker 2: be out there and either like providing magic and witchcraft
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  Speaker 2: of the world, also providing like you know, education and
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  Speaker 2: hopefully helping guide people on their own path. Like that's
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  Speaker 2: that's more than any paycheck could ever give you. Is
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  Speaker 2: the feeling when someone comes and tells you, Hey, this
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  Speaker 2: thing you taught me, like really help me out, or
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  Speaker 2: you know, this thing that you did for me. Are
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  Speaker 2: this oil that you made or something like, really help
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  Speaker 2: me in this situation? You know, that's truly, like that's
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  Speaker 2: why I do it, Like that at the heart of it,
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  Speaker 2: Like that's that's the most rewarding thing.
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  Speaker 1: You know. Oh of course, no, I get it. I
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  Speaker 1: get it. That is awesome though, good for you, Gods,
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  Speaker 1: so many things that are just coming up from just
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: talking to you. Besides, the question is already, but I
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  Speaker 1: want to try to, like I guess, stick to the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: structure a little bit because I love oils and herbs,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: like as a ceremonial magician. I still like, I guess
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: almost kind of witchcraft of out with the crystals and herbs.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: I love that stuff, man. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean
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  Speaker 1: I was even doing a NERB series. I love them.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, that's excellent.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah yeah. All right, So you said you
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: got into it at a young age. Uh, I guess
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: as long as you're okay with talking about it, like,
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  Speaker 1: how did that happen? Like, like, I'll even say for myself,
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  Speaker 1: I remember myself when I was in elementary school, I
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: found some like book for like Norse gods for children.
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  Speaker 1: It was the weirdest thing, and I think ever since
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  Speaker 1: then that really kind of like kept my attention and
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: just so I could see even myself, I got into
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: at a young age. I don't know how it happened for you,
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  Speaker 1: but you said that you're rather young.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. They're just the things that
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  Speaker 2: I've always kind of been drawn to, I think ever
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  Speaker 2: since I was young. And the way I think that
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  Speaker 2: I I think my natural inclination is I think a
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: lot of our naturally inclined. My natural inclination in a
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: lot of ways, the ways that I interacted with the
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: world was very animist, in its kind of heart, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: so I think that was always there. I, you know,
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: very much was a big like nature boy, would run
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: off into the woods for hours, you know, exploring finding
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: salamanders under logs, like kind of getting to know the plants.
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  Speaker 2: And I always felt very much surrounded by like spirits,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: you know, particularly in those places. And you know, I
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  Speaker 2: was always interested in had kind of a draw towards
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: an obsession towards like the idea of magic, and particularly
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  Speaker 2: like whenever you know, kids are playing like dungeons and
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  Speaker 2: dragons or make believe or whatever, I always always inevitably
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: would be like, oh, I'm gonna be a wizard or
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a witch or whatever. I always wanted to be like
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  Speaker 2: that magical figure. And I was always drawn to that
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  Speaker 2: and drawn to those types of figures in stories and
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: drawn to mythology kind of like to your point, like
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  Speaker 2: I always found a lot of that stuff always spoke
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  Speaker 2: to me, and it was you know, I was like
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: twelve years old and I was in my library kind
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: of similar to your story. I was like as looking
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: through books in the library and I came across about
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  Speaker 2: book on witchcraft or really it was on like the
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: history of witchcraft, and like the Salem witch Trials and
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: things like that, and it framed witches and witchcraft largely
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: from this kind of medievalist, early modern view of witches
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  Speaker 2: as like being in league with the devil and signing
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: packs and whatever, and kind of really recounting a lot
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: of that type of approach our understanding of witches and witchcraft,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: but speaking at it from largely historical lens.
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  Speaker 3: And talking about like witch trials and the like.
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  Speaker 2: And I remember coming across that, and it was the
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: first time for you that I was like, oh, like,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: witches are real thing. They're not just like some made
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: up thing that's just from a story book. Like there's
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: actually a real life precedent of people that at least
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: supposedly were practicing witchcraft and were witches, and so that
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  Speaker 2: if they existed it some point, they must still be
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: out there somewhere, right, And that kind of then took
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  Speaker 2: off for me. It was interesting because, you know, not
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  Speaker 2: too long after that, I stumbled across kind of like
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  Speaker 2: the first actual books written by like contemporary practitioners of witchcraft,
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: which back in those days, I mean, this is like
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: we're talking many years ago, and the offerings in the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: local bookstore were pretty limited. This is more like nineties era, right,
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: and so a lot of what was out there was
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: very like quote unquote eclectic wicca. And so that's that
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: was kind of what I first got off, especially at
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: like twelve years old. Scott Cunningham was perfectly great.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yep, yep.
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  Speaker 2: It was a great like segue into some of this
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and feeling like not terribly intimidating. But you know, definitely
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: my practice and my approaches have very much shifted since then.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I've definitely fallen more into the realm of like what
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: we would generally refer to as traditional witchcraft, and a
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: lot of my practice draws upon a lot of the
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: lore and understanding and understanding, and they're kind of more
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: early modern kind of framing and understanding of witches and witchcraft.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: So it's almost kind of a full circle moment where
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: some of those things I was very first exposed to
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: when coming across witches and witchcraft have are much more
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  Speaker 2: integrated into my practice as opposed to a lot of
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  Speaker 2: my practices don't tend to mirror much of what I
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: see a lot of like kind of energy centered practice
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: or kind of more New Age influence that tends to
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: exist in a lot of contemporary witchcraft. Which that's not
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: an admonition of that or a judgment. It's just the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: way you do It's just the way I do it,
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  Speaker 2: in the way that I connect. Yeah and so, but yeah,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: so that's my long way of kind of saying, Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I stumbled across the book in the library and it
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: really kind of blew my mind open, where I was like, okay,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: so whiches are real? And and then really that from there,
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  Speaker 2: I really just got into it and kind of absorbed
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  Speaker 2: everything I could find on the subject when I was younger,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and then you know, I fuck about my teen years
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: and uh and uh eventually kind of came back to
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: harder in my twenties and eventually, uh ended up kind
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: of ending up where.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: I am now teaching and doing it as as a vocation.
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  Speaker 1: That is awesome. That's a great story. I love it. Man. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: very reminiscent of mind too. Oh so when it came
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to uh, I guess this book that we're going to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: talk about, what made you decide? You know, what they needed? Actually,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I'll be honest, it's not even in my opinion, I
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: don't even think it's a genre that's actually overly done.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: But I will say, what made you think they needed
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: your book?
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  Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: I think that well, that is I think a really
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: good question, and I think and question that a lot
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: of authors should be asking themselves.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: I would hope.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: For for many many years, you know, as as someone
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: who's taught and been out there like doing conferences and
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: things like that, I've had some really wonderful people like
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: be complementary to me and say, oh, you know, you
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: really should write.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: A book, you shoul write a book, you should write
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: a book.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And I've always been a little bit resistant to that,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: in part just because I didn't want to write like
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: another Witchcraft want on one book, because there are a
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: lot of those, and that's what most authors, I feel
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: like in the Witchcraft realm tend to start with is
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: like their own kind of overview Witchcraft want on one book,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: which is fine, and there's nothing wrong with new takes
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: on that coming out, because every author's voice in opinions
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: are going to be different, right, and so different folks
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: are going to connect with different people. But this is
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: a particular subject when we get into this exploration of
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: spirit work, and particularly like inspirited objects and effigies and
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: puppets and what have you, that I feel like in
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: most texts out there in the realm of magic, this
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: is very almost like niche within niche. However, that being said,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's an incredibly important practice that actually has
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: its fingers in so much of our magical history and
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: is under explored and under utilized, and an incredibly powerful
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: way to work magic. I mean, this has been a
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: central part of much of what I've done for at
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: least the last twenty years of my journey, I would
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: probably say, and I had been teaching kind of on
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: this subject for probably a little over a decade off
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: and on about like poppet magic and things like that,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: but wanted to get this out there because really I
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: felt like it was an under explored area of magic.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: There are not that many texts out there that I
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: could point to that specifically explore this. Probably the closest
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: thing to it is there's a book by a man
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: named Martin Duffy that's an excellent book. In his book
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: is called Effigy. To the point where, like Martin and
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I have interacted, I was like, is it cool if
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I call my book and soling the effigy because it's
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: kind of close to years and it's similar to but
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: he was, He's he's amazing, wonderful person and he hasn't
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: explorer exploration of the role of effigy is kind of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: in history, but it's still quite different than mine, and
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: I think the two books are excellently complimentary to each other.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: For this book, I really wanted to I mean, I
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: don't know how I to do it otherwise, because it's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: reflective of my own views and practice, right, and so
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: it centers on kind of an animist approach, which again
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think is explored terribly heavily within contemporary witchcraft
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: animism versus perhaps more energy specific work. It dives into
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: spirit work in a way that I don't see in
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: many places either. And then it really explores and spirited objects,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the crafting of them, and a lot of other aspects
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: of things that I haven't seen elsewhere. And that's if
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I was going to put something out there, especially like
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: as a debut thing, I really wanted to put something
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: out there that I felt was contributing to the broader
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: magical conversation and would hopefully inspire people to explore new
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: avenues and be curious and perhaps incorporate some new things
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: into their own practice. And so I feel like it's
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: doing that that makes me very happy.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: That it's great. Yeah, no, I would even say, like
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: again when it was suggested to me. When I saw
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: the book, I was like, oh, I was like, I haven't,
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Like I was just going to keep it real. Maybe
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: it's just the way it works. But like when I
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: have like I have Wiser Leewellen and Inner Traditions and
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: cross crowed books whenever they send me people recently, it
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: just seems like a lot of astrology in Taro. I
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: don't know what it is, a lot of that seems
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: to be coming out. And I was like, oh, something
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: different and something I haven't, like I said, overly done.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I was like, this isn't something like, in my opinion,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: not a type of magic that you see coming out
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: constantly by different authors, you know. So I was like,
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: this is something different from my listeners as well. And
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: I think it, like you said, it ties into so
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: much stuff like or I think at least that idea.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, you could see it kind of like Tulpa's
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, the homunculus or
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: ether a Gollum or even if you get into cabalistic stuff,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: there's things that you could be possibly you know. So
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: I like it's scattered it in a lot of practices.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I like to think that this book no
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: matter who you are, that like, there's something in here
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: that can be helpful regardless of whether or not you
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: decide to make this practice your practice.
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: I talk about things.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, plant charming and conjuration and a lot
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: of other things that like pacting with spirits, spirit negotiation,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: how to work with different magical material.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: You know, there's so much in this book.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And the funny thing about it too, is like this
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: book was originally I was contracted to a sixty thousand
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: word book, and meanwhile, like one hundred plus thousand words
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: later we have this, and you know, it definitely took
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: a while longer to complete, but that's because I just
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: kind of felt like I don't know how I can
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: really talk about in spirited objects and how I do
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: this and my approach towards all of this without laying
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: down a lot of foundation to give people like that
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: foundation of like spirit work and kind of the perspective.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: That I'm coming to this from and within that I think.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: That there are there are just techniques and ideas in
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: this book that I would hope would be interesting and
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: perhaps inspire almost anyone, regardless of whether or not you're
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: coming to this from an animist perspective or or a
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: different type of mindset. I try try to keep very
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: true to my own practice and perspectives, but also include
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: things that I think could be applicable to a very
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: broad spectrum of magical practitioners.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely agree with that, and like a good
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: example even from myself. And maybe you'll understand this too,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: And I think most of the listeners, maybe the new
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: people may not get it yet. But like I feel
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: like there's like certain books like yours would be one
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: of them where it's like, even though I may see
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: it kind of being presented in one way, I know
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I could take that and attribute it to my system. Yes, yeah,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: I could planetary stuff, yeah, you know, or I could
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: start using spheres from the dacabalistic tree to imbue into
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: this poppet instead, you know what I'm saying. Absolutely, Yeah,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So I like how like your book is something that
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: I see, and you know, there's certain other things too,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Like maybe that's why I'm into herbs and crystals because
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like those are the diverse. It's something that
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you could add into anybody's really magical workings. You could
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: just change it to your system but still get the
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: same idea, you know. Yes, so that interested me. So
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I got to get this, gotta
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: get this guy on for sure, something different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Now for people who hear effigy and immediately think of
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: poppets or dolls, like, what are they missing? What is
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: an effigy in the deeper magical sense for you?
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: Well, so they're not wrong.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I mean I would say that poppets and dolls definitely
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: are a form of effigy.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: So for me, effigy is essentially a term that would
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: indicate something that's like human or humanoid in form.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: So that's usually how I would describe it, and the
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: way that I utilize it in the context of this
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: work is that an effigy is something that's human or
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: humanoid in form that is worked for the purposes of magic.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: But that being said, we could certainly say, like you.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Know, a mannequin in the department store is a form
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: of effigy, right, And so That's usually how I am
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: working with that terminology in this book, because it's just
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: kind of placing it too differentiate it from other forms
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: of spirit vessels, like perhaps like you know, jars, bottles,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: those types of vessels, bags, masks, what I would generally
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: call like fetish objects in general, which can take many
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: different forms. But the way I tend to separate the
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: things is there are effigies which are humanoid form in
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: spirited vessels, right, and fetishes kind of can cover almost
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: the rest of all of the rest of that where
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: it's things that are not necessarily humanoid form but are
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: still spirit houses.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, would you consider like a divic's box kind
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: of something like that?
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't. That's not really an area of
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: expertise of mind. So I don't know that I can
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: like speak on that so much.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know what, yeah to to my understanding, I'm
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: just on my most peripheral understanding of it, it is
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: a box that spirits are trapped within, maybe, and so
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: in that case, yeah, I mean, if a spirit is
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: bound to it, and kind of that's very much a
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: spirit house or prison, I guess in that case. But
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: I could be wrong about again, that's not like a
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: particular area.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Of my gotcha. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't. I would say
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: the same answer as you if somebody asked me that
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I really wouldn't know what this baby says that from
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: what I understand and how I look at it. Maybe
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: your book is called Insoling the Effigy. What does insoling
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: me to you? Are we talking about inviting his spirit
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: into an object, awakening something already present, creating a vessel,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: or some combination of all three?
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, I would say it is a
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: combination of all three, right, I kind of And again
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: there are these kind of nabulous lines when it comes
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: to some of this too, where you may be working
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: with a spirit or perhaps a deity that you want
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: to create a spirit vessel for. And I think it's
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: also worth recognizing that oftentimes the level to which I
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: would say the material form, or what we can just
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: refer to as a body, right, what becomes the body
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: of the spirit, the material body of that spirit on
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: earth or an anchor for it. There are greater or
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: lesser degrees to which we could say that it's fully
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: inhabited by a spirit. And I would say that sometimes
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: these things function more as conduits. The way that I
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: oftentimes will refer to it is sometimes it functions more
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: as like a throne for this spirit or deity to
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: sit in when we are engaging with them. In other
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: cases it can the spirit can be very much tied
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: to that body. I find that particularly what we would
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: generally refer to it more as sub lunar spirits tend
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to be those which more fully inhabit material forms than
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: when we get into more celestial forms of spirits, which
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: tend to use them a little bit more as like
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: a conduit, as a as a locust right a throne
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: to sit upon.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: But again this all varies.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: To that all set I mean, spirits have an airy
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: nature a lot of times, and this more incorporeal form,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: and so they are not always, and I would say
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: rarely are fully bound to a material body the same
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: way that we might imagine that we are, even though
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: I don't believe that human beings are fully bound to
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: our material bodies, and I certainly don't believe that witches are,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: in the sense that one of the primary identifiers for
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: witches in my perspective, is that which is engage in
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: spirit flight or transsectional or what folks might refer to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: as like astral projection or or you know, on a journeying,
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: and so within that even we are not bound to
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: our bodies, right in ways that we can we can
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: send our spirits out. If you look at even a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: lot of the classical understandings of witches throughout history, it
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: was that witches would send their spirits out in flight
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: to either go forth to their witch meetings or sabots,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: or to you know, cause harm to their enemies, or
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: shape shift or do all sorts of things. And so
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: you know, we are not fully bound to our material
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: forms either. But to kind of answer your question, it
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: is kind of all of those things. In the sense
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: that you can craft a vessel that is intended to
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: be a resting place or a home to to this
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: tailor made for a specific spirit or deity that you
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: already have a relationship with, right, you can also craft
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: spirits through the process of crafting the vessel, if that
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: makes sense. Wherein the disparate pieces, the different materia, the herbs,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: the stones, the roots, the bones, the you know, everything
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: else that you're incorporating into this becomes a part of
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: kind of this chimeric form that then comes together and
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: forms like aestalt or like agglutinates in its way to
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: create a new expression of spirit that is larger than
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: the sum of its parts, right, And so that's another
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: way of doing things. That's this kind of sin as
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: I referred to as the Frankenstein's Monster version of things.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I tend to refer to these types of spirits as
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: momt spirits. There's a long reason behind that and what
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: that phrasing means, and just based on the etymology of
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: that word I get into a little bit more in
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: the book, but it can mean a lot of different things,
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: from like a household spirit to manufactured idol, to a
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: puppet or a puppet, and it also can mean one
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: that does someone else's bidding. So I tend to use
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: that terminology to speak about these constructed spirits as opposed
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: to utilizing it maybe more well known terms like servitory
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: or because servitors speaks to a specific usually technology of
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: construction that is not parallel to exactly what I'm talking
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: about here.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Mom At spirits.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: You can find probably some of the best parallels that
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: I have found are things like in Kisi spirits and
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the making of Inkisi, and like West African and Congo practices,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: or the way that folks within who do enconjure tend
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to view things like making mojos as like you're constructing
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: a spirit by bringing together these disparate spirits that then
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: function as one whole. Which is kind of an interesting
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: thing too, because, at least from my perspective, in witchcraft
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: and magic, we often fool ourselves into thinking that we're
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: a single entity. You know, that Matthew Venus is a
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: single entity, as opposed to like at least three raccoons
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: in a trench coat and maybe more. I think we
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: are kind of a conglomeration actually of spirits existing within
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: an ecosystem of this body. And even if we wanted
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: to take this on a practical, you know, biological level,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: we have many We are an ecosystem into ourselves of
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: micro organisms and bacteria and whatever that are a part
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: of our being, right, But I would take that further
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: in the sense that I tend to view that we
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: are a multi part soul that you know, we have
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: like what some people might refer to as like the
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: upper cell or the Holy Guardian Angel. I tend to
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: refer that as the Grand Genius. We have our middle self.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: The some might refer to that as the it or
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: the ego. I refer to it as the crafter, and
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: then we have like our quote unquote lower self. But
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: I most which is understand this is the fetch and
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: that is the part of us that as oftentimes the
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: part that is sent forth in spirit flight and is
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: very much viewed as kind of almost like a spirit
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: double that can take on different forms and is very
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: tied to our kind of our our survival.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: And part of some of our primal aspects as well.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So even within that, we're conglomeration of spirits, and I
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: believe that we can have certainly more spirits and things
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: like that that are a part of our make ups.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: So we are a conglomeration of things. So the crafting
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: of spirits in this way doesn't seem so wild and
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: out there when we consider some of those perspectives.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: But here's where it gets really weird.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Just to kind of really touch back on your original question,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: here's where I think it gets really weird. And I'm
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: not always trying to find hard answers to these types
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: of queries, right is if I decide, okay, I need
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: to I want to craft a spirit that's going to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: help me, let's say, help bring business opportunity to me, right,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: that's going to work with me as a partner to
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: do that.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: And so I'm going to quote unquote create this spirit.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to gather together different materia, you know, herbs, dirts, stones,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: all sorts of different things of bones, whatever I might
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: utilize or be drawn towards doing this, decide what that
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: is going to be, decide the form of it, craft this,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: and then go through the process of kind of enlivening
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and spiriting this as in a.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: New form to assist me.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Now we could argue that perhaps I constructed this spirit
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: from all the disparate parts. We could also argue that
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: quite possibly I was working in collaboration with this spirit
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the whole time that was partially guiding my hand in
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the construction of it, and this was just a spirit
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: on the other side that was guiding that was ready
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: to take on this work and come through in this form.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: And so it sometimes I almost view it as a
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: co creative process and birthing spirits into a new material form.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: And sometimes those material forms are finite and determined as
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: finite that like your role in this world and in
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: this form, in this material vessel, is for us to
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: work in collaboration towards this goal. And at that point
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: you'll be given like offering, you'll be given thanks, and
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: then our bond will be severed and this form will
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: be dismantled and you will return back to those disparate parts,
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: return back to the source in new ways and forms.
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: And so it's not necessarily about a death of a way.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: It's like, this is a part of what that work was,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: you know, brought forth from the other world into this
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: from the choreal or you know, into the material to
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: to do this work together in tandem and ideally with
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: respect and reciprocity in that relationship. So yeah, there's but
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: sometimes those relationships turn into ongoing right. Uh so maybe
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: this constructed quote unquote spirit actually becomes more and more
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: to the individual and becomes a real spirit ally and
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: perhaps so which is familiar.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, that was great, Thank you? That was that
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: was an awesome wasn't taking all that stuff? I did
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: have something I was going to ask you totally forgotten
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: now I got so I actually got so stuck in
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the stuff you were saying. That was really cool. Yeah,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: I can't remember. There was something that I just had
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: thought I was gonna ask you when that you said,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: And I can't sorry, I have no No, it's quite
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: all right.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: Now, Serpentine my way through things, but.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: It was great. A lot of modern people think of
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: popp and magic as simple pathetic magic like this represents
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the person. But your book seems to go much further.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: How do you separate basic sympathetic correspondence from true spirit
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: vessel work.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: So I think that.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Those things are not fully inseparate, like they're not necessarily
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: need to be fully separated. I think that a part
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: of and I've mentioned animism, right, so it might be helpful.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Let me throw this out there. So for those unfamiliar
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: with the term, when we talk about animism, it's this
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: is like the Cliff's Notes version of it. Animism is
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: the basic beliefs that we live in an inspirited world,
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: so that we could say that there are other things
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: around us that have spirits. And this can extend, of course, yes,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to plants and animals, which you know, obviously other biological life,
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: but for a lot of cultures and individuals this can
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: mean things like, you know, the cave near you are,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: the ocean, the wind, that mountain range over there, that
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: rock that you're holding, you know. And I would also
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: extend this into the realm of human crafted objects, and
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: potentially even take it as far as to say that
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: I believe that things like songs or works of art
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: can have a spirit to them as well. You know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the street that Eulevon has can have its own spirit,
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: perhaps your coffee mug. And a part of the way
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: that this works for me is I tend to function
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: from a place of what I just refer to as
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: a form of pan psychic animism, where so, you know
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: where generally where we'd have like a more materialist understanding
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: of consciousness that would put forth that consciousness is emergent, right,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: and it merges out of biological mechanisms, our brains right
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: are what allows us to be conscious beings. Whereas a
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: pan psychic view recognizes that consciousness is actually a fundamental
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: and ubiquitous throughout all of existence, and meaning that like
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: in some form to greater or lesser degrees of complexity,
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: consciousness exists in everything. Right, So your phone, the chair
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: you're sitting upon, has some aspect or element of consciousness,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: and we might take that so far as to say
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: that all is consciousness, all is mind, perhaps right, and so.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I can get you know.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I have I have feelings about you know, but they
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: say all is mine. They do say that they think
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: of that book, they do.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: And so but yeah, so kind of going to some
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: of that that perspectives. So that for me, consciousness is ubiquitous,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: and so what it breaks down from me is often
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because I've asked people before, I did a
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: little bit of a survey to be like, what what
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: does spirit mean to you?
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Like? What is a spirit?
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: And it's interesting that the vast number of answers that
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: you get on that question, and so oftentimes it's like
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: energy or this and that the other is how it's trained.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: And so this is how I define spirit.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: A spirit is a pattern of consciousness that we are
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: able to directly engage with when we're equipped with the
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: proper sensory and cognitive tools. So uh that you and
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I are able to interact right now because we have
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: the proper sensory and cognitive tools to interact with each other.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: And so I would argue that.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: I would argue that witches and magical practitioners have more
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: developed sensory and cognitive tools to engage with a broader
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: diversity of spirits, including those that don't have bodies, are
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: those that aren't necessarily super easily accessible on this plane
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: to the average individual who hasn't developed that school that
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: skill set, right, So part of magical development is developing
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: that mediumship ability. The psychic ability is the ability to
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: have the site. And certainly there are people that are
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: born with natural aptitudes towards this too, you know, people
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: that are just born with kind of mediumistic abilities or
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: the site where they are very vividly see spirits, and
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: so that is a part of it, right. So that's
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: how I generally tend to define spirit is like kind
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: of the personhood of consciousness and how we're able to
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: interact with it. So, when equipped with the proper cognitive
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: and sensory tools, I could potentially go into the spirit
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: flight into the other world and try and summon forth
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: and call forth the spirit of you know, the Mona Lisa,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: not the person the painting, you know, and try to
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: get to know that, right, I could potentially have a
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: conversation with the multitude of consciousness and meaning that we
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: might attribute to the number two right. So these are
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: things that I think can be done and I have
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: done and have explored. But it's largely through recognizing and
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: approaching the world from a worldview that is animist, which
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: gives us and ascribes personhood two things in person who
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean that we fully anthropomorphize everything that we
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: engage with, but we should recognize, particularly when it comes
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: to spirit interaction, anthropomorphism is it builds a bridge between
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: our form of consciousness and consciousnesses that can be quite
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: different than ours, and we just need to recognize that
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: as a tool and a symbolic tool, right. So this
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: is symbolism at work, right that helps bridge.
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: That gap for us.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: So I would argue that that sorry, I feel like
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: I need to get back to popits in a second here,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: But this does touch upon the idea of like the
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: symbolic right and what role does that play well. Human
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: beings very much function based on symbol and based on
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: memory too. So our understanding and symbol systems is based
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: upon our life experiences and our memories and spirits. I
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: often will say spirits clothe themselves from the wardrobe of
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: our memory. It's unlikely that if a spirit appears to
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: you they're gonna unless I'll say, there are some caveats
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: to this. One of the major caveats is if this
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: spirit lived life as a human being before, this might happen.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: But it's unlikely that the spirit's going to show up
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: to you wearing a sombrero and a cumber bund if
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: you've never seen a sombrero and cumberbund before. Spirits oftentimes
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: are going to clothe themselves based upon what we have
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: in our reservoirs because they don't actually look like that.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: They're creating an interface utilizing our sensory abilities as that interface, right,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and that sensory those sensory cues are drawn from our
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: own memories.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Quite often. Now, this is why I.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: Say there's a when we're talking particularly about spirits of
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the dead that may have lived human lives before, because
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: now we're also dealing with the consciousness that does have
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: a memory of human life and may have had a
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: whole wardrobe of their own, and maybe they did wear
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: a sombro. And even though it doesn't matter necessarily whether
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: or not we've seen that, it also gets interesting when
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: we talk about spirit experiences that are witnessed by a
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: multitude of people in one space, because then it becomes
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: almost a collective experience that's informed by the collective in
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways.
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: So yeah, so that's kind of my take on it.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Symbolism is a bridge, it's a tool again, kind of
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: like anthropomorphism, but also symbolism has its own power. I
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: would say that, like, you know, colors have their own
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: very broad, vast and varied history and spirits. We could
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: say a form of kind of spirit tied to them
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: and different expressions of that spirit.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Same thing with numbers, you know.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: But again, it just depends on how we're understanding spirit
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: and how we're going to approach that. I have found
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: that when we treat things with personhood in the right
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: situations and.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: We're equipped with the proper cognitive.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: And sensory tools, And by this I mean that, like
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: you've developed psychic abilities or mediumship abilities, or divination abilities,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: or spirit conjuration abilities or spirit flight, those are all
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: part of the tool set right that allows.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Us to interact with and engage with spirits.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: But by treating things as persons as having spirits, more
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: often than not a lot of times you'll find that
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: they can and will respond as such, some of them
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: might not be terribly insightful, Like if I was going
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: to talk to the spirit of this water bottle, there
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: might not be there, might not be allowed to interface with.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: I guess it's the best way to say it. If
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I were to try to speak to this spirit, the
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: grand spirit of like water bottle as a concept, there
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: might be more there though.
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: If that makes sense.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, I think it's good to have ideas,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: and I think it's good to have like more questions
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: and try to act like there are hard and fast
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: answers when it comes to spirit, because spirit is nebulous,
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: and spirits.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Will oftentimes fit the molds.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Or are interface with us, I guess in the ways
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: that we kind of craft them. That's why I would say,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: you can have one culture that has a full cosmology
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: and spirit work tradition, and that is just as valid
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: as another culture that has a full cosmology and spirit
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: system as well, because these speak to the ways in
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: which those humans have developed the tools and the cues
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: and the rituals for interfacing with the spirits that are
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: most localized to them in their own terrain. And that
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily make one right or wrong. I find that
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: like spirits will oftentimes kind of express themselves in ways
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: which makes sense for us in our place in space
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and time. But again there are always exceptions to all
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: of those things. So back to poppets, but really quickly,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: my short answer with that to some extent is, yeah,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: symbolic elements certainly play a role in the crafting of poppets.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: So you might create a doll that is the representative
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: of person, so you might make it have like similar
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: looking clothing or hair, or maybe even.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Use a picture as a part of all of that.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: One of the elements that sometimes I don't see talked
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: about in more contemporary spaces when we're working with puppets, though,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: is that a part of this process is basically capturing
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: a bit of that person's spirit and tying it to
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: the doll, So the doll becomes an extension of that
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: person's spirit, is opposed to just a symbolic representation of
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: this person. It becomes a temporary spirit vessel for a
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: part of that person's spirit, and that's how it is
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: more easily able to affect them. And so there are
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: various ways that this could be done through ritual, through breath,
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: through one of the most classic forms is baptized, the
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: doll in that person's name, and things like that. But
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: it becomes more than just a symbolic link, particularly if
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: we incorporate a material that like, you know, clothing worn
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: by that person or Bodley fluids or hair fingernaut flippings,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: some of those classical things, because then you are also
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: capturing a bit of the body, which also is a deeper,
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: more intrinsic link to spirit.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: No. I love that. I like how you brought up
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: some of this stuff like to connect with it. I
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: think it's great for people to hear that don't really
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: know too much before you. Oh, you mentioned something about
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: I really thought it was interesting. I was so glad
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: to hear somebody'll say it, because it's even something that
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: I've been kind of like mentioning on the show when
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: it comes up, and I've been kind of like looking
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: at like certain certain things that we do in magic
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: or witchcraft that you know, there is kind of like
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: a scientific side to like how it may affect you,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: and something that I've noticed that comes up, and like
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: you had said, sometimes you know, maybe people will envision
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: maybe they're intity of the spirit that they're dealing with
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: differently because of what's inside their head. Absolutely, and I
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: think that is so huge because it's kind of basically
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: even scientifically proven to be true that like your memories,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: like you were saying, you might have certain memories that
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: have created an expectation now or what you're going to experience,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: and then that's how your brain will try to make
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: sense of what's going on that way, you know.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So now oftentimes spirits will kind of fill that that
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: mold that is made for them, right. Yeah, I think
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: the temporary understanding of Hecatea, for instance, is very different
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: than she might have been understood in like the early
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: modern period or the classical period, or you know. She
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: is a goddess with many with a very very long
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: and varied history. And I will also say that, like,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: you know, Heckatay is probably the most popular uh you know,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: goddess in contemporary witchcraft, and as she rightly should be
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, you know.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: And it's interesting because that's also somewhat newer development.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: I remember when I was in my twenties and people
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: would be like, oh, you work with Heckatay. That's spooky,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: and but but my kind of thing with that is
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: there you talk to like five different witches who are
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: working with Heckitay, and they all have very different relationships
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: with her, and they may have very different views upon
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: how she presents for them. And and again we're talking
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: about a multifaceted goddess. But here's where I get a
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: little weird with the whole thing. There's a couple of
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: things to consider in this type of relationship. One is,
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: you know, we could both know we could have a
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: mutual friend, let's name him. You know Gary, right, and
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: you know you've known Garius since college or whatever, you know,
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: and so you guys have have held around your drinking
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: buddies whatever. I know Gary, because Gary is like my mechanic, right,
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: and that's the entirety of my relationship with them. Our
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: understanding and relationships with Gary and what Gary provides for
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: us as individuals in our relationship with it is very different.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: We might know the same Gary, but we know very
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: different versions of that Gary. And the ways in which
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: we interact with Gary and the you know, the things
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: that our relationship is with Gary are very different as well.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I think that's equally true of the way that people
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: engage with spirits and goddesses and things like that as well.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: We can have very different things, are very different kind
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: of facets of our relationship.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: With them that are unique to us.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: And now if if Gary is five foot four, you know,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: and has black hair, and we're talking about Gary, and
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yeah, Gary, you know, he's about like,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: he's about like six four, he's got blonde hair and
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: blue eyes, And then you're gonna be like, I'm not
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: sure we're talking about the same Gary. You know, there's
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: a certain point there where it's like if things get
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: a little bit far out and they're like, oh, you know, Hekity,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: the goddess of like beauty and love and you know,
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: cupcakes and unicorns, people might be like, I don't know
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: if what you're called the Heckatay you know, is the
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: same Heckitay that I know plastic world. But hey, so
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: there's like kind of an element there where there will
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: certainly be crossover. But every person that knows me knows
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: a slightly different facet and version of me. And that's
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: true of all relationships. It's just as true of spirits.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: But here I'll throw an additional wrench into the mix.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: We might call hekta, a hekita complex of spirits, that
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: actually there's not one heckaitay that everyone has with, especially
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: in the realm of spirits and spirit interface. That all
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: of these individual relationships are individual enough that we might
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: consider them to be individual spirits or individual masks or
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: facets or tendrolls of a much broader spirit complex. So
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: you know, each individual may have their who works with
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: hekatay could have their very own kind of personal individual hekata,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: So we might see it almost as a legion, you know,
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: of spirits, as opposed to one specific spirit or different
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: you know, rivers that flow from the same source. There
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: are many different ways to view this, and I don't
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: believe that it behooves us to try to put reins
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: on saying that it's one hundred percent this or that.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: I think it's just good to have various ideas about
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: ways in which it can function.
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: And and go from there.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: No, I like how you explain that. I totally agree
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: with that. I think it's like a conglomerate of different
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: feminine ideas well.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I think it can become it becomes a speedback loop
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: the way that human beings work with spirits. Right, we
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: look at deities. None of them look like that. None
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: of them are human, none of them have human forms.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: These are masks that we've created for them. We've answer,
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: we've we It's it's interesting because there's this speedback loop
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: of our mythos about the gods creating us in their image,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: but in turn we create them in ours right, and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: so it does become this this feedback loop. And by
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: by giving a spirit or deity more anthropomorphized form, it
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: allows us to more accurate, accurately, and more easily, more
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: comfortably interface with them, and oftentimes there are more happy
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: to take on those those human aid at least forms,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: because then they have ears to hear us, you know,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: a mouth you know to speak to us, and hands
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: to receive our offerings, and feet to lay them at
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: are what have you. You know, it makes that interface
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: much more accessible for us, because I do think it's
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: something that human beings often require. If it wasn't, we
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: wouldn't nearly have all of these mythos and images of
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: deities and spirits and usually human if you know, if not,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: if not fully human, at least human aid forms, even
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: when we look at more beasteal forms of deities they
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: still were like you know, we look at like chemetic
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: deities where it's still a human body but with an
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: animal head or things that.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that one of the things
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: I talk about in my book, I actually kind of
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: open it with this exploration, is the earliest example that
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: we have, like of of an effigy what I would
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: call an effigy, like a figure crafted and sculpted by
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: human hands, is from forty thousand years ago and it's
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: known as the Loewen Minch or the Lion Man. We
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: don't know even for sure if it was meant to
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: be a man or whatever, but it's an anthropomorphic figure
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: that is basically atherean throw So it's got a human
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: body and a lion's head, and it's it was.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: Carved out of mammoth ivory.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: And this is our oldest example that we have of
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: a form that was crafted by human hands. In it's
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: a humanoid form. And for me, the fact that it's
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: the sterianthropic figure speaks immediately to the idea that this
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: isn't meant to be representative of a human It's not
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: meant to be a representative of a lion. It's meant
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: to be representative of a unique figure that has to
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: kind of you, that represents both. So I don't think
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: it's a crazy stretch to say that our first effigy,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: or at least the one that we have the earliest
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: example of that we were spending time and energy on,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: was meant to be a representative of a spirit or
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: meant to be, you know, drawing a spirit from like
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: concept vitual spirit realm and giving it.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: A material body here in this realm. And I find
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: it profound.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: As well. That is old m hmm. I really like,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: I really like how you said, you know, you blew
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: my mind with that with this line, when you said
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: we designed the gods in our image, I.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Was very much I consider a lot of magic, and
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: particularly this work, the work of crafting and creating spirit
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: and spirited objects to be that realm of like imitatio
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: da where we we behave as the gods. And I
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: talk about this in the book too. Many many many
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: many many many world mythos you know are are mythos.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: Structure is that the gods fashioned us out of clay.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Oftentimes it could be other materials, but most commonly it
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: is clay, and and that we were sculpted by the gods,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: and each individual was made and the human form was
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: crafted in this way. So by us in turn turning
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: around using clay and other forms to sculpt figures and
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: effigies and idols of deities and spirits, we are becoming
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: like unto them, right uh, and again creating this feedback loop.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: Uh that that we I literally then craft them, and
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: our own image and our mythos kind of reflects that
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that. No, I think that's that's an
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: amazing way to say wow, thank you when when a
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: which makes an effigy, how important other materials. I mean,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: I think he kind of went into it a little
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: bit before the cloth, the wax, the bone, the clay,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: the wood, the hair, the herbs, the dirt, blood breath.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I know. Actually it's funny this question
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: is reminding me now what I wanted to say earlier
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: when you were when you were talking about the stuff
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: that you would add to like some of these things.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: It seems like it's like a for me that would
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: be like for the ceremonial magician, all the correspondences that
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I have on my altar I'm now just going to
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: create into one object, right or something or literally I
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: could even stuff that into a poppy, you know, depending
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: on what I was using. So yeah, I guess like
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: that's what I was going to say, is like how
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I could even see like what you're talking about, how
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: I could even attribute that to the way I did stuff,
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of like adding correspondences to equal what
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: this thing means.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: Right, And well, we're also.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Crafting a body which is meant to have the power
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: and the medicine that it needs to be best suited
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: to accomplish the work that we're designing it for.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: So you know, if I'm going to create a fetish
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: or an effigy for you know, bringing love, I'm going
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: to generally draw upon plants and roots and things and
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: dirt and things like that that have So like, let's say,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: let's say I'm going to create a fetish object that's
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: meant to be kind of inspirited, that is is intended
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: to help, you.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: Know, create lustful encounters and love.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Right, So perhaps I might incorporate different botanicals that have
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: a history of aiding in those types of things. And again,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: these will vary depending upon different people's cultural perspectives on plants,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: but also they you know, if you're exploring animism and
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: the work of this book in the way that I'm
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: laying it out, we also can develop our own relationships
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: with plant spirits as well, and the ways in which
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: they can reveal themselves to us. But a part of
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: understanding any type of material, and this is whether it's
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: plant or mineral, or animal or anything like that, is,
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: first off, there's there's a multifaceted way that we could
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: look at this. We could explore the plant, where it grows,
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: its biology, it's phitochemistry, how it's been utilized medicinally, how
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: we've understood it in folklore and mythology, how human beings
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: have interacted with it historically in industry or just ecology.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: But then also direct experience of like connecting with that
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: plant on a spirit level, whether it's through utilizing forms
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: of scrying or divination to better understand its spirit and
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: form a relationship, or going into a spirit flight in
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: the other world and trying to have an audience with
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: the spirit of that plant. And again, when we talk
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: about plants, and this can apply so much to animals
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: and things of that too, is there are two different
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: kind of lenses through which we might view this. There
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: is that particular sage plant that's growing in your backyard,
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: that specific example of that, But then there's also sage
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: plant and the spirit that is all of the sage plants.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? Salvia?
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: And so there are a lot of different kind of
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: keyholes we might go through to form better understanding of
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: those things, because individual exemplars are going to have some
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: nuances to that. A plant that grows in the cemetery
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: is going to have different virtues than a plant that
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: grows by the seaside. And it could be the same plant,
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: but just by nature of where it is growing, will
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: have different kind of aspects to its spirit and the
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: ways that it may be better or worse suited to
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: certain types of magic. So within all of this it
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: is like getting to know kind of that material ideally.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: And again, you know, you might not know every friend
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: at the party as well as some of the other ones,
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: and so it's like, you know, there are times when
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: I'm crafting something. Let's get back to our example, You're
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: crafting a love effigy are fetish, So you might draw
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: upon plants that are historically known for working in love magic,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: So maybe we would go with something like damiano, which
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: is historically worked with as an aphrodisiac. Also things like cinnamon,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: which are often is oftentimes worked with to kind of
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: warm things up and heat things up. So if you're
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: trying to kind of bring blood to the surface, if
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: you're going to try to heat things up in a
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: sensual way, cinnamon might be incorporated. If you are looking
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: for sexual performance and virility, maybe you would incorporate a
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: raccoon penis bone, which is a classic charm that's been
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: worked with for specifically those purposes in a lot of
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: different ways. You might use gather dirts that you've gathered from,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: perhaps like a brothel or a place, you know, a hotel, motel, depending.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: On how.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: It's like that that you might incorporate into this.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Perhaps you would take all of this and other materials
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: that you've gathered and with each of these kind of
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: speaking to the spirits of those things, because at dirt
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: is kind of a marker of the spirit of that
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: place and the memory of that place and the things
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: that happened there, right and speak to the spirit of
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: the damiana, tell it that you're asking for it to
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: assist you in this work. Same with cinnamon, because these
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: plants are also multifaceted. Right, So what I noticed in
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of contemporary witchcraft is if you're looking at
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: like TikTok or these things, it's a lot of folks
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: just taking various plant materials or other materials and tossing
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: them into a jar and being like, this is for love.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: You know, Rose is for love, So I'm going to
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: throw that into there. Rose is for love.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: But rose can also be worked with for like drawing
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: and alluring and attraction and exorcism as well. It is
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: a very multifaceted plant. And so I talk in the
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: book a lot about like plant spirits and conjuration and
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: speaking to the spirit of that plant, asking for its assistance,
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: allying with it, and literally like saying I need your
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: help in this type of matter because it's going to
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: help direct your magic more specifically towards the goal than
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: just you know, kind of tossing it into a jar
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: and being like, well, it says that this is for love,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Well have you asked it to help.
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: You with love?
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: One of the ways I say it is like a
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: dog is going to dog no matter what you know,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: dogs will be dogs, But a dog that you've trained
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: to come at your command and that you've developed a
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: relationship with is going to serve you much better in
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: the ways that you might need or want it to dog,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: whether we're talking service dog or guard dog, or you know,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: a companion than just any old dog on the street,
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: you know, and hoping that it will behave the way
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: that you that you want it to if you haven't
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: really bothered to understand, care for, and just basically interact
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: with it. And I think that that's kind of true
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: of like herbs and other material as well. So this
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: is why I think acknowledging connecting with the personhood, trying
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: to have greater understanding of the things we're working with
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: as a posed to kind of this materialist, capitalist almost
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: mindset of treating things as though they're just materials, they're
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: just symbolic. Because if it's just symbolic, then stop digging
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: up the earth for minerals, you know what I mean.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: You don't actually need that stone, you don't actually need
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: that plant. If it's just a symbol drawn on a
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: piece of paper, you know what I mean, if it's
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: just the symbol, no we're talking about things that have
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: their own spirit, they have their own personhood. So I
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, to acknowledge that and recognize we're
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: crafting magic and spirit and tandem with them creates much
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: better results than just treating things as resources to be
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: exploited magically. And that seems to be the way that
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of things are framed, whether
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: or not people realize that. And so that's why I'm
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: kind of, like, you know, trying to push this animist mindset.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: I think it creates a different viewpoint from which we
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: might engage with the things that we're engaging with.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I liked that. I never I guess maybe because
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: when I got into magic, I just assumed that, like
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: I was using herbs and crystals because of least some
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: energetic match, right, So I never I never thought of
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: it the other way. But that's I guess that's a
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: good point.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: Well, there's I mean, so this kind of ties back
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: to these what we sometimes is referred to as like
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: the great chain of.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Being, where you know, the Creator.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Through the celestial spheares, spheres down and down and down,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: herbs and stones and other things have these correspondences that
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: oftentimes align with or they're influenced by the celestial realm,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: which is real, right, but it creates this kind of
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: hierarchical structure, and it does kind of remove the personhood
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: of that thing, and they're viewed only as like their
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: energetic signature, if you will, are only you know, that
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: as being kind of good for the quote unquote energy
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: that they can provide to our work. And especially when
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: we're talking about plants and animals, they put material. You know,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: we're talking about things that very obviously to us are living,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: biological things, and so it's strange to me to kind
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: of remove some of that person wood completely and to
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: treat it just as something that we're using for that
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: We're using appropriate terminology there, we're using it for its energy,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: which that feels a little.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: Gross to me.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: So I would much rather kind of try to partner
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: with the spirit of that thing and and try and
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: work with it in those ways.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: But you know, no, no, no, And I get that
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: makes sense. I just never thought of it like the
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: way you said, it's just kind of like a very
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: just material because I I guess I can see that,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: especially with TikTok we are living in.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: I'm just like very, you know, and when we're living
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: in a very I think we are. Animism is not
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: h It's something that's actually pretty trained out of us,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: I think culturally that type of mindset. And so it's
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: almost like a relearning for folks if they're interested in
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: that type of thing. But I also say, even as
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: just a thought experiment, you know, try it, like try
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: try talking to your material like it is, like it
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: has a personhood, you know. I awaken Spirit of Angelica,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: you who are holy ghost root, blessed of the archangels,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: you who protect and keep away all harm. Exercise all
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: harm from this space and place. Remove all ego eye
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: you know, all malignity, all malice and harmful magic. Let
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: no harmful spirits come through. I awaken you and ask
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: for your aid, as you aided so many before. May
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: you stand a guardian of the space and place. And
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: you know, may there every piece between us and do that,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe dress it with an oil, hang it
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: over your door and just see if maybe it functions
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: a little bit better than you just like not saying
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: anything to it at all, or just like doing like
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: a weird energy vibe thing with.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: It, you know.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: And so I I encourage people to experiment with that
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: and see how it feels for them.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: That took me back. Man, as you were doing that,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: I was like, wow, that reminds me of like like
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: all my tools and like, yeah, even like when I
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: made oils. You know, obviously it was making the oil
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: for a reason, and I'm trying to like, you know,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: talk to like what I'm working with here and having
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: a little drawn out conversation like you're just doing. Now, Yeah,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: that's I don't know. I guess I just got into
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: it like that. So it just blows my mom when
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: you were saying I can see people doing being very
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: materialistic with it now, it's just I never I guess
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: I didn't come from that side of thought very well.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: And I think it's a blind spot and a lot
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: of contemporary magic, and that's a part of why I
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: wanted to write about it, you know, And you know.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: It is you.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: It allows you to actually really layer and I think really,
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: I mean even from a completely selfish percepts perception, which
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: is not how I view it really, but if you
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: wanted to look at it, it's like, what's the gain
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: for me? The gain is that now all of the
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: material that you're using, if you've talked to it, if
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: you even you know, it doesn't have to be as
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: flowery as what I even said, and be like just
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: hold the clay in your hand and say, made the
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: spirit of this clay, I waken you. I ask for
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: your aid and the working of drawing love or whatever
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever it is. And and but each of
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: these things has been acknowledged, has been aligned to purpose.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: So all of the disparate parts, that's adding layers and
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: layers of like alignment and magic and connection, connective tissue
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: between all of the things that you're trying to bring
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: together to craft new forms and new realities in this world.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: And I find that it's.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: A much more involved, multi layered, much more powerful way
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: of crafting magic as opposed to like, well, I'm gonna
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: throw all these things together and maybe say one little
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: prayer over it and hope for the best, you know,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: I like, you know, try it both ways and see
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: which one maybe provides better results.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: You know, I like it.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: So that's one of those pieces for me.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: But even like to your point saying about like oils
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: and things like that, I, you know, I make a
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: lot of oils and incenses here.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: That's part of what we do.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: And most of these oils have a mother bobble and
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: that becomes this like almost you know, the vessel, the
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: gestation vessel that's like becomes almost the spirit house of
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: this oil. And so even when it needs to be replenished,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: it's still being replenished in this same thing.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: So that bottle has a bunch of magical.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Material, and it's blessed, it's consecrated, it's kind of enliven
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: and so it's almost like we're feeding it and replenishing
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: it when we create new oils. And so, yes, they
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: have a spirit running through them, you know. And this
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: is this type of mentality and approach can be applied
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: to so many different areas of magic, you know. And
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: I encourage folks to think about that your magical tools.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Try interacting with magical tools as though they as though
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: they have a personhood and a living spirit within them.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: Because here's an interesting fun thing.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: If you have a magical knife that you have aligned
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: with the spirit of maybe you've given it a name
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: and you understand the spirit of your magical knife.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: But you find yourself in a.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: Hotel in des Moine and you need to do some
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: ritual and you didn't bring your magical knife because I
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: don't know, you couldn't bring it on the plane or whatever.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: Get yourself a butter knife and conjure the spirit by
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: name of your magical knife into that knife and allow
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: it to act through it like and then utilize that
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: as your temporary tool and a temporary spirit vessel to
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: tether to the spirit of your actual magical knife.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: I like that. Like that, that makes sense. Yeah, why
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: not try and see what happens? Right? Yeah? I love it.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: The worst that can happen is it's not for you
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: and you think I'm full of shit, And that's fine.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: I don't need everyone to to see magic that.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: Through the same lens that I do, you know.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: I I just put out there what I think has
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: worked for me and that I think is important and
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: hopefully it encourages folks in interesting new directions.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Awesome one, I think will I probably have one more
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: question and then we'll wrap it up. I could probably
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: get you on again. I would love to talk to
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: you about other things. It's a great conversation. Great when
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: it comes to this book, What is the one thing
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: you hope everybody that everybody gets out of it if
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: they could get one thing out of it.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: I really think that, I do think it is that
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: kind of mindset of of perhaps changing a little bit
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: of our perspectives on spirits, really.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: Maybe reframing how.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: How the various ways that spirit work can be incorporated
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: into magic and from everything from like conjuring of materia
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: to also examining the ways that a lot of times
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: spirits are framed within popular culture, because I do think
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: that a lot of even within magical and occult realms,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: the way that I see people talk about spirits is
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: heavily influenced and informed more from Protestant perspectives.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: Whether people acknowledge that or not.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people get a lot of
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: people get their understandings of our fears or perceptions of
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: spirits from horror movies, and a lot of those tropes
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: come from earlier tropes that are from Protestant writings that
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: then also infiltrated even into like Catholicism in its own
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: way and things like that. So maybe changing people's perspectives
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: on spirits and you know, recognizing the different ways that
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: we can engage with spirits in ways which are responsible
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: in respect full and encourage kind of both safe and
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: reciprocal relationships with the spirits around us.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: I love it. I think that's great. Thank you very much, Matthew.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: You definitely have got a lot of stuff. I could
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: probably talk to you about for hours and pick your
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: brain on, especially the herbs and the oils. I would
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: love to actually have you back on for that.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: Maybe sure you get me talking obviously, I don't.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, No, it's good. No, it's you definitely tell
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: you're probably a great teacher. I think it's probably really good. No,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: So that that was great, very detailed and very great answers. Man,
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Please let everybody know everything like the book, the stores,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: they're upcoming events. Because he actually even got me interested
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: in the event.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: So yeah, so things that we got going on, let's see.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: So obviously a lot of what we've been talking about tonight,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: there's that and plenty more within Insulling the Effigy the
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: Witch's Art of Inspirited Objects. It's interesting because I do
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: think the book it's much more than it meets the
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: eye when you first see it. I think, as far
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: as what we explore within it. But that book you
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: can get anywhere generally, that books are sold, but you can.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: The publisher is Crosscrow, so you can buy it directly
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: through Crosscrow Books. You can also buy it through my website.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: My website is Spiritus Arcanum. It's SBI R I t
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: U s A ar c A n U M dot
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: com and if you order through my website you'll get
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: a signed copy of it.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: You can find me online.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: I'm an Instagram spiritists Underscore Arcanum, and I have classes
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: and workshops that I teach through the website as well.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: I actually have a thirteen month course called Foundations of Witchcraft,
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: which is an introductory course to animistic traditional witchcraft and
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: various topics there and that's starting. Our next round of
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: it starts in July, so you can sign up for
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: it currently and join in for that. Beyond that, there's
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: the Sale in Witchcraft and Vocalo Festival coming up in August.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: You can find out more about that at Salem Witchfest
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: dot com. UH, and you know see if you were
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: interested in joining us there are You can sign up
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: for full packages online to get access to all the
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: classes and the class recordings afterwards, or you can sign
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: up for individual classes as well.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: UH and then you can also.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Join us here in you know, beautiful Salem, Massachusetts for
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: all of the fun events that we're doing here as
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: a part of that.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think those are the main things.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: Those are some of the primary ways that you can
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: find me in kind of what we're up to these days.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: That is great, and uh, you know, I don't know
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: if I mentioned it before why we're recording, but you know,
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: I did have people, I had a few people suggest
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: you to come on, and I know one, if not
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: two are students of one of his classes, and they
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: say it's great. Soles well put that.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: That's always good to hear.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: I do say, like, I think one of the main
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: things that I love about what I do is is
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: being able to engage with people and teach in those ways.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: So no, they totally give you, you know, a great,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: great review. When they were trying to sell you to me,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: I was like, all right, all right, I'll get.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: Well that's great.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: You know, they're literally taking pictures I think I think
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: they were in one of your classes and they took
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: pictures and sent pictures of them on the computer and
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: your stuff. And I was like, I was like, okay.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I have I do have a course which is
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: also like a year long course that is insuling the
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: fig as a course that we did a little bit
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: more deep into the material of the book that I
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: think we're three classes in right now on that particular course.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: It's a little late for folks to join on this round,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: but we'll probably do it again in a year.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: So I heard great things about it, so I want
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: to put that out there for you. Well, thank you,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, no, thank you, Matthew. This really was
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: a great show. You You had me going on like
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: rabbit holes and memories from the past, and then I
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: forget the question because of that, but thank you so much. Yeah, no, no,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: that was really that was really a lot of fun
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: for me. For sure. It was very interesting and just
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: you know, again brought back a lot of memories of
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: my own past practicing and playing around and trying to
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: figure things out. Again, thank you.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: That's a good place to be.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: When we end up a place where we think we've
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: got it all figured out, then you don't you need
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: to go back to being curious.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that to you.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: But no, no, I agree.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: I'm sure both of us have.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: Known our share of calcified old magicians that they have
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: all the answers and good luck to them. Curious and
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: still too, curiosity, a sense of kind of play and experimentation.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I always say I got a few
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: ideas and that's about it, so I'm still searching, you know.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: I like it. Oh yeah again, thank you for coming
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: on and hopefully get you on again and have more discussions.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: And that is the end of another recult Rejects and
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: until the next one, everybody be well Later