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Teaching Through Failing: How Greg Bagby Models Courageous EdTech Leadership · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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integrate this ed tech podcast I'm David burner
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joined as always by my co -host Jeremy Nickla
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and Today we have a very special guest with us
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joining us today We have an incredible leader
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in the ed tech and AI space Greg Bagley Greg
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is an educational consultant keynote speaker
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former district tech leader and a driving voice
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in shaping how schools approach AI Greg believes
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AI literacy isn't just knowing how to use tools.
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It's about creating, critiquing, and collaborating
1:01
with AI responsibly. Greg, thanks for joining
1:04
us. Do you want to give us a bit of your intro
1:06
outside of the accolades that I mentioned and
1:09
just how you got where you are today and the
1:11
things that you've got going on? Sure. Thank
1:15
you both for having me on the show. I was a teacher,
1:19
I am a teacher. I started off in the classroom
1:21
teaching music and then somebody brought me a
1:24
computer and I put it together and then the next
1:26
year I taught computers. And from there they
1:30
said, hey, you should go into administration.
1:32
So I said, okay. And they moved me to administration
1:35
and then someone said, hey, come work in the
1:37
district office and show other people how do
1:39
you do technology? Like, sure. So I did that.
1:45
So it seems like people say, Hey Greg, you should
1:48
do this. And I said, okay, let me do that. Hey
1:50
Greg, you can do this. And it's not that I don't
1:54
enjoy what I do. I actually like it a lot. And
1:56
I'm thankful that people have seen these things
1:59
in me and have had me to take this next step,
2:02
take this step, take this step. Um, and now that
2:05
I'm no longer with the district, as a matter
2:06
of fact, I was just at a conference last week
2:10
and the keynote speaker, um, just A couple of
2:15
months ago, she was like, Greg, you need to get
2:16
out of your district. You need to come on the
2:18
road and do like me and be a keynote and consult
2:21
full time. I was like, uh, okay. So, uh, I didn't
2:24
even think about it, but yeah, so it's her fault.
2:26
The reason why I'm doing what I'm doing now,
2:28
uh, and what it is basically is helping, like
2:32
you say, helping teachers and schools and districts
2:35
integrate AI and instructional tech into their
2:38
curriculum and, uh, ultimately making things
2:41
better for students. Yeah, it seems like maybe
2:45
things just fell into your lap at different moments
2:47
in time, but I think you probably you probably
2:50
had more to do with that than I think what you're
2:53
giving yourself credit for You know and to kind
2:57
of go along with some of those things in 2024
3:01
You were named one of district administration's
3:05
top 100 influencers in education, which is, I
3:10
think, a pretty high esteemed accolade here,
3:13
so congratulations on that here. As we kick things
3:17
off here, but what did receiving an accolade
3:21
or a title like that mean to you? Did it come
3:24
with extra responsibilities and burdens, though?
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Um, you know, to make it feel like, Hey, if I'm
3:31
a thought leader, I have to actually go show
3:33
people my thinking. Uh, funny. You should ask.
3:36
Uh, I believe that accolade came because, uh,
3:40
in 2024, I had the pleasure, the very first month
3:44
of the year, I had the pleasure of going to the
3:46
white house and presenting the national educational
3:49
technology plan, which I was a part of the technical
3:51
working group. And I guess when you go to the
3:56
white house to speak on something, people think
3:58
you know something. Uh, so that was part of it,
4:01
but I had also been doing a, uh, stint with Apple
4:07
being a contract worker for a year traveling
4:11
and helping teachers in schools that way, as
4:14
well as within CCE. And when I get an accolade
4:18
like that, yes, it makes me think with great
4:20
power comes great responsibility. Not saying
4:23
that I had any power. Uncle Ben didn't bestow
4:27
that upon me, but just knowing that folks are
4:32
listening to what I'm saying and doing, it makes
4:35
me think, yes, people want to hear my voice or
4:39
maybe they don't want to hear it and they're
4:41
just happy that I'm there, but, uh, I found myself
4:44
more willing to be that thought leader character.
4:47
After such last year, last summer, actually I
4:51
was on, uh, two or three different organizational.
4:56
think groups, think tanks, uh, around AI literacy
4:59
and things that were going on. And as I was,
5:03
as I was going over some of those things just
5:05
last week, I realized, Oh, Hey, they actually
5:08
listed my name here. Yeah. I guess I did help
5:10
them with that. Oh, wait. Hey, there's my name
5:12
again. Uh, yeah. So it did put me in a position
5:16
to where others saw me as a thought leader. And
5:19
then I'm slowly seeing myself as that as well.
5:22
I'm going to jump ahead here a little bit because
5:25
I was planning to ask this a little bit later.
5:27
But since you brought up the National Education
5:30
Technology Plan that you mentioned going to the
5:34
White House for, you know, the landscape that
5:37
we're currently in is that, you know, there is
5:40
no real functional office of education technology
5:45
within the US Department of Education anymore.
5:48
So, you know, like, is that plan still functional
5:52
is or are there takeaways from there that regardless
5:56
of You know where we're at that, you know district
6:00
leaders can take Yes, I think they're the plan
6:06
well, you can't find it on the Department of
6:10
Education website Not for this country at least
6:13
you can find it on a couple of websites for other
6:15
countries They've archived it for us so that
6:18
we can have access to it still Thank you, other
6:21
countries. But as I sat in the auditorium in
6:29
San Diego, California, and I heard Linda McMahon
6:32
call AIA1 twice, I was thinking she needs to
6:39
read the national ed tech plan, not just because
6:42
of the idea of her. getting that wrong, which
6:45
I understand she was probably reading from the
6:48
prompter that was in front of her. I was there.
6:50
I, like I said, we all were in shock when she
6:53
said a one learning. We're like, wait, I, I,
6:56
I literally pulled out my phone and Googled it
6:59
because I was trying to figure out what is she
7:00
talking about? I don't know this. I want to know
7:02
what this a one learned. And then when I realized
7:04
she was talking about AI, I was like, Oh, um,
7:08
but the plan itself, uh, districts. if they have
7:12
access to it. If not, you can just email me.
7:14
I have the copy. I'll send it to you. But districts
7:18
have ideas on how to help close the digital divide
7:22
where students have not just access to tools,
7:26
but access to great teaching, instructional technology
7:31
teaching. That's one of the big parts of it that
7:34
I think people forget about. It's not just connecting
7:37
the computers with the internet anymore. It's
7:41
more about making sure you have a solid teacher
7:44
who has an understanding of instructional technology,
7:48
helping the students understand how and with
7:51
AI and the whole AI divide and AI literacy and
7:54
not understanding fake news versus deep fakes
8:00
and things that are going on with AI. I think,
8:04
yes, the National Aiv Tech Plan, it addresses
8:07
some of those things, and folks can do a deeper
8:10
dive. And not only that, it gives 50, more than
8:14
50 examples of how folks are closing the divide,
8:18
but also that divide closure is not just with,
8:23
once again, connecting students with devices
8:26
and broadband. It's also with how teachers are
8:31
or how schools are using technology coaches to
8:34
help implement different things inside the classrooms
8:36
and help students learn through that. So I know
8:40
that was a lot. So, yes, the plan is still alive
8:43
and well. It's just not where it should be physically.
8:48
And with that, too, the whole idea of planning
8:52
things out and, you know, one of the biggest
8:55
problems that we can run into with EdTech is
8:59
implementing EdTech that doesn't necessarily
9:02
have a real established plan for it. And so there's
9:07
a lot of uses that may be worthwhile. But can
9:11
you just define for us to what strategic EdTech
9:15
integration looks like and how you would describe
9:19
that? First and foremost, strategic EdTech integration.
9:24
I like the way you said that. You want it to
9:28
solve a problem? You're not going to pull in
9:30
edtech just for the sake of, hey, I'm using edtech.
9:32
Same thing with AI. Ooh, this has AI now. Yeah,
9:35
let's get it. No. There has to be a reason that
9:39
you're, what is your what? No, don't ask which
9:41
why's, but you have to have a reason to, in order
9:44
to pull edtech in. And if your reason is nothing
9:50
to do with improving the critical thinking or
9:53
core thinking of the students and building them
9:56
up, then do we really need it? I think of the
9:59
whole Samar instructional technology integration
10:05
model by Dr. Pontedora. When you think of the
10:08
whole substitution, we did a whole lot of substitution
10:11
when we got Chromebooks. We just made, hey, digital
10:14
worksheets. But I would love to get to the folks,
10:18
get to the part to where modification and redefinition
10:22
is taking place inside of the classroom with
10:24
technology. And if you have a plan or if you
10:27
have an idea of how you can stretch students
10:29
thinking through the use of something like SAMR,
10:34
substitution, augmentation, redefinition, modification,
10:38
modification, redefinition. Yeah, you nailed
10:39
it. Yeah, funny I nailed it last time well last
10:43
time years ago I was sitting on this panel and
10:45
Richard Coletta if the guy from his seat I said
10:48
something about Sam our he's like, oh Greg tell
10:50
us what is Sam are and I was like It was like
10:53
this live webinar and I kind of froze and I was
10:57
in dude Why would you ask me that anyway, because
11:00
I I knew it but anyway Yeah, have a plan and
11:05
and know that things like You look at the world
11:09
economic form and they say the things that the
11:12
students are gonna need the most of it goes around
11:14
critical thinking that's not Making sure that
11:18
your broadband is connected correctly or making
11:20
sure they have the right chromebooks or the right
11:22
laptops we need to make sure that we're understanding
11:25
where we want our students to go and What problems
11:28
we're gonna solve with the technology or the
11:31
devices or the whatever in order to get students
11:34
there? Strategically, that's what we need to
11:36
be thinking about. How do we move students from
11:39
here to find them at their point of need and
11:41
move them to their potential? Have you read AI
11:46
Optimism by Becky Keene? I have not read it all,
11:49
but I do have it right over there. She signed
11:52
my copy for me. Aw. It sounds like you're giving
11:57
talking points directly from her book. See the
12:01
thing about that, Becky Keene, uh, uh, what's
12:06
the guy, Matt Miller. Yeah. I'm supposed to be
12:08
on this ditch summit in a month and I should
12:11
know his name. Uh, and there's a few others that
12:14
have written AI books and I've had conversations
12:17
with them about a lot of the things and not saying
12:21
that I get any credit at all, but a lot of the
12:23
things that come up in our conversations I find
12:26
later in their books. Like, Oh, Hey, Hey. Yeah,
12:30
but it's okay. I love Becky. Becky's amazing.
12:33
I did nothing. She's, she's got it. Same thing
12:36
with Matt Miller. He's amazing. Holly clock.
12:38
She's amazing. Uh, Ken Shelton. He's amazing.
12:40
Alana Winnick. She's amazing. Uh, they're all
12:42
great people and they do great things, but I
12:44
love the fact that I can have conversations with
12:46
these people. And then some of the conversations
12:48
are parts of the conversations where items, elements
12:51
for the conversations are popping up in their
12:53
literature. But yes, Becky King, she did. do
12:56
a lot with Samar, didn't she? I was thinking
12:59
about that. That's how she opens. And Pantadoura
13:02
wrote the foreword for her book. Yeah. And I
13:05
remember leading. sessions when I was back in
13:09
the classroom and we'd have a workshop day and
13:12
I remember coming back from a conference and
13:14
learning about SAMR and said to the principal
13:17
I need time at our next staff development that
13:20
I've got to tell everybody about this SAMR thing
13:23
and about how we're all gonna move up the ladder
13:26
and how we're all gonna be doing this transformative
13:29
education and then you know I found that it didn't
13:32
stick all that well and it was probably because
13:35
I just lack the experience and kind of the examples,
13:39
I think, to really help people with it. And then
13:43
I feel like SAMR disappeared for a while, but
13:44
now I think it's experiencing this revival again.
13:48
And I think AI has a lot to do with that. And
13:50
I think because we're finding ways to take that
13:55
framework that you talked about and apply it
13:58
with what people can do. using AI as, and I'm
14:03
starting to transition myself here, not calling
14:06
it a tool all the time, but a teammate, you know,
14:09
someone that can be used to help elevate that
14:12
thinking. So, like, do you think this might then
14:15
be the sticking point where SAM are now, or an
14:19
alternative framework, whatever it is, but that,
14:21
you know, that transformative idea, that strategic
14:24
part that we, you know, you were talking about
14:26
can help make this teammates a more functional
14:32
aspect of increasing that critical thinking in
14:36
our students? I think it's going to help the
14:39
whole idea of I guess the whole push with AI
14:44
and some folks being afraid of it so well afraid
14:47
is that the good word? Yeah, some folks still
14:50
being afraid of it, but it's not going to. go
14:53
anywhere. It's, we're not going to block or ban
14:55
our way out of AI usage in the classroom by students
14:59
or teachers. Um, it's not one of those, oh, it
15:02
ain't going to go anywhere. So you might as well
15:03
embrace it. Can't beat them, join them. No, it's
15:05
not that it's the fact that, like you said, using
15:08
it as a guide on the side, the thought partner
15:10
so that we can build the capacity of these students.
15:15
And I think Samar or some other technology integration.
15:22
framework will allow teachers, I think it will
15:28
allow them a little bit more freedom in their
15:30
thought of how I can use this, especially if
15:32
they're using it with AI and figuring out, okay,
15:35
so I don't want low level thinking. I don't want
15:38
low level work. I want something a little bit
15:41
more robust. And I think the whole Samar thing
15:44
went out the window because, um, You have to
15:47
think about it. You have to figure out, okay,
15:49
so this is what I've been doing for years. How
15:51
can I make this? How can I level this up? How
15:53
can I move this to the next level? And it got
15:57
hard for some people. They would do that at the
15:59
beginning. And then they just said, Oh, okay.
16:01
Yeah. This is difficult. Let me go back to my
16:03
worksheets. You know, well, and one thing too,
16:07
that I've thought about and could be helpful
16:09
is the fact that we do have AI. The ability to
16:14
insert a lesson say into like a. If you build
16:18
a gem that's based on it has the knowledge base
16:21
of Sam or you can feed lesson plans to something
16:24
like that and say like what does this lesson
16:27
look like at the various levels of Sam or all
16:30
from substitution all the way to redefinition
16:32
just to maybe spark some ideas around some of
16:35
those things you know if you're not as comfortable
16:39
like trying to figure out like. how do I modify
16:42
this lesson to fit that? But in terms of if you're
16:48
looking at professional development and how,
16:52
whether people are learning about models like
16:55
SAMR or you could really take this anywhere you
16:58
want to, Greg. But if you think about what's
17:01
the most effective way to take a concept, what
17:05
SAMR otherwise, and have teachers really Take
17:10
that information and then be able to put it into
17:12
their daily practice What in your opinion would
17:15
be like the most effective? Methods for doing
17:18
that when it comes to professional development
17:20
or training teachers say you have 60 minutes
17:22
with them and you know your your job is to Take
17:26
that 60 minutes and transform that their entire
17:29
practice into them Is there any like little insights
17:32
or things that you find that are effective? well,
17:35
one of the things that Of course we all do. It's
17:38
the whole modeling aspect, model something. And
17:42
when I was a principal, one of the things that
17:44
I would do, especially when I wanted teachers
17:46
to understand and grab onto something, a new
17:49
concept, I would, I would fail. And then show
17:54
them how I could learn from that failure or grow
17:57
from that failure during that 45 minute staff
18:01
meeting or whatever. and show them how, oh wait,
18:06
even though this didn't work out like this, I've
18:08
learned this, this, and this and we can grow
18:10
here and I can still use this. So bottling failure
18:15
and then accomplish, actually we don't call it
18:18
failure. Modeling prototyping and iteration so
18:22
that we prototype and fail often so that. when
18:26
we're getting to the point to where, hey, this
18:29
is really cool or we can really integrate this
18:32
or we can really pull in this curricular idea
18:35
and make it something really good for students.
18:39
I like doing that when I have time to work with
18:43
teachers. I like modeling something and not necessarily
18:47
get it all right the first time. And sometimes
18:50
I do, a lot of times I do it on purpose just
18:53
because especially when I was a principal, the
18:55
whole idea of psychological safety was where
18:58
I wanted my teachers to be so that they would
19:01
fill the gumption to go and try something and
19:05
it'd be okay if they didn't make it the first
19:07
time. I want teachers to unlike Um, doctors and
19:14
lawyers, we don't say we don't practice teaching.
19:17
Uh, they practice because they're always learning
19:19
and always growing, but our teaching should be
19:22
final is what the world thinks. Uh, I want teachers
19:25
to understand that it's a practice as well and
19:28
they can grow and get better. Um, so that's one
19:33
of the things that I, I know it's bad. Uh, but
19:36
that's one of the things that I do is I, I kind
19:38
of fail in front of folks, um, so that they can.
19:42
only if I have enough time for them to see me
19:46
learn from the failure grow and build whatever
19:49
we were building together. Right. And so I think
19:53
I think a key thing in order for that to be successful,
19:56
I think with with teaching staff is to know that
19:59
they have the support of their administrator
20:02
and allowing them to have that space to prototype
20:08
and to iterate as you called it. So what could
20:11
like a principal or another district leader,
20:16
instructional coach, whatever role you would
20:19
like to choose, kind of do to kind of help bring
20:22
that about? I mean, like how would you coach
20:26
principals to allow their staff to have that
20:30
kind of a space? Well, funny you should ask.
20:33
I was in Duxbury, Massachusetts Tuesday and the
20:37
high school principal was there and I was telling
20:38
him, uh, that he needs to make sure that his
20:41
kids or kids teachers have psychological safety
20:43
so that, uh, when they do mess up or make us
20:47
say they're not panicky over it. And I told him
20:50
that you are going to have to be a little bit
20:53
vulnerable and, uh, maybe even fail in front
20:56
of your faculty at some point, but not fail in
20:59
the sense of, oh, wait, We didn't buy lunch for
21:02
the next week and all the kids are going to starve.
21:04
No, not like that, but something really small.
21:07
Uh, you're showing them a new application or
21:09
you're showing them this new gym that you created
21:11
and it doesn't work properly. Uh, it's okay and
21:15
say, Oh, I need to go back in and change some
21:18
of these elements of the gym. And not only that,
21:20
I need to upload this document to make sure that
21:22
the gym is pulling from this. And, uh, so the
21:26
idea that I told with him. or the idea that we
21:29
had, because I was working with them on AI and
21:32
we were actually using gems. And that was one
21:35
of the areas where we said, I said, you know,
21:37
if you don't have it all together at the first,
21:40
that's okay. Let them see that and explain to
21:43
them that it's okay, that they don't have it
21:45
all together. Um, I was just thinking, hopefully
21:48
he won't be watching this because soon he's not
21:50
just kidding. I'll be sure to send this to him.
21:53
Your office staff doesn't watch this. Oh yeah,
21:56
there is that. Yeah, I kind of called him out
22:01
on psychological safety when he was in front
22:03
of the staff. But he's going to do it. I have
22:09
more faith in him. So Greg, one of the things
22:15
that is always you have to strike a balance between
22:19
and this is really difficult for districts is
22:22
they've got limited funds to purchase a number
22:26
of different curriculum tools and things like
22:28
that. And there's really no shortage of ed tech
22:31
tools out there. And so navigating like what
22:35
tools are going to be widely used by their staff
22:38
and actually have a positive benefit to student
22:42
learning. Do you do you think that or what do
22:46
you think are maybe the key components to having
22:48
a successful partnership? Between a school district
22:52
and an ed tech vendor because everyone's vying
22:55
for dollars, but that's not there still is also
22:59
the added element that. They are still providing
23:03
quality tools and things that can benefit students
23:06
if they're planned for appropriately, but is
23:09
there things that make that more likely to succeed
23:13
in your opinion? Well, I think you said. One
23:15
of the words you said is part of it, making sure
23:18
that that vendor is a partner with the school
23:21
system and a partner with what they do. Another
23:26
area would be communications, making sure that
23:29
there's open line of communications. Yes, of
23:31
course we're going to say there's always open
23:33
lines of communication, but I worked with the
23:36
vendor over the last year and we had a monthly
23:41
call. And I know that sounds like a lot, but
23:43
sometimes that monthly call would be less than
23:45
five minutes. And it was just a, Hey, I just
23:48
want to make sure everything's working. I want
23:50
to make sure everything's flowing. Um, and if
23:54
there's any problems, any questions, let's get
23:56
it out. So that way the vendor knew what was
23:59
going on all the time in the district. Okay.
24:01
There we go. Uh, the vendor knew what was going
24:03
on all the time in the district. And we knew
24:06
if there were any pain points that the vendor
24:09
was having with the district and. we could just
24:11
have that conversation. And we knew, we knew
24:15
that if there was an issue, we could reach out.
24:18
Um, I guess it was our customer success management
24:21
manager. Uh, we could reach out to him directly.
24:24
Uh, we all had a cell number and if there was
24:26
an issue that we couldn't figure out, we could
24:28
call them and say, Hey, this is not happening.
24:30
What can we do? And he was really good about
24:33
getting back to us. If he happened to be on another
24:36
call or things like that. And It just made a
24:40
difference. Just knowing that he was going to
24:42
be there and yeah, he could send swag and all
24:44
that other stuff, but just making sure that he
24:48
has our back. And then another thing that I think
24:52
helps vendors is acknowledge the folks said that
24:57
you service, uh, you're at a conference or they're
25:00
at a conference. And yes, I get I get these emails
25:05
all the time. Are you going to be at this conference?
25:06
Are you going to be at that conference? Come
25:07
by this booth, that booth. But if they're a partner
25:10
with you already, go ahead and make that connection.
25:14
I know this sounds cheesy, but have something
25:16
special for them. Even if it's just like I went
25:18
to this one booth at the Georgia tech, Georgia
25:22
tech conference last week. And yes, it was a
25:25
busy week last week. Trust me. And they said,
25:28
Oh, Greg, you're a customer bars here. Take this
25:31
bag and this pen. And they gave me like, I don't
25:34
know, some swag stuff that I could have done
25:37
without. Uh, but that the fact that they acknowledge
25:41
that not only, uh, we know you, but we know that
25:44
you're spending money with us and we appreciate
25:47
your, what you do. And if you have any questions,
25:50
here's my card. Uh, here's myself. Don't forget
25:53
to call or reach out. And I think that. It bodes
25:58
well for that company. It's one of those things
26:00
that makes me think, oh, if I know of anyone
26:03
in another district that needs this, I'm going
26:05
to tell them about this company because they're
26:07
taking care of me. That was a lot, but there
26:10
you go. And I think sometimes too, especially
26:14
when you get into a competitive field like that,
26:16
when there are alternatives and there's a limited
26:19
amount of dollars that go into choosing the vendors
26:23
and the product or the tool that you would like
26:25
to have your teachers work with or your students.
26:29
Are there some key things that if you're searching
26:32
for? A new you've got a problem right let's start
26:36
with the problem and the problem could be lms
26:38
or the problem could be student information systems
26:41
or the problem could be our teachers aren't creating
26:45
lesson plans that really challenge critical thinking
26:48
and you're looking for a product that's going
26:51
to help bring about a solution that is going
26:54
to be embraced by staff like and you're starting
26:57
to evaluate alternatives there are there like
27:00
i don't let's focus on an ai product for example,
27:03
and what sort of things should teams be looking
27:08
to evaluate when they choose that beyond the
27:11
customer service and the relationship with the
27:13
vendor? Are there other things that need to be
27:16
addressed and considered there? Well, of course.
27:19
Does it actually solve the problem that you're
27:21
having? Uh, and is there historical data? Well,
27:25
with AI, probably not a whole lot of them being
27:28
successful with solving that problem and moving
27:31
students forward. If it's a student issue or,
27:34
uh, helping the district office grow with this
27:37
or that, depending on what the issue is. Uh,
27:40
yeah. And one of the things that I like to do,
27:43
like I was on another call earlier and I said,
27:47
so who else use your product? And I, like the
27:53
gentleman was saying, well, no one in your area,
27:56
but this school in Chicago and this school in
27:58
California and this school and like, you know
28:00
what? Hmm. I want those names anyway. Uh, for
28:04
example, he threw out a school district that's
28:06
in Chicago and just so happens that I visited
28:10
that school district and took a tour of their
28:12
building. And, and I know the district well,
28:14
and, and he, I don't know if he threw that one
28:17
out because he didn't think I would know of it
28:19
or, or what. but I'm going to reach out to Nutria
28:23
this afternoon and figure out, Hey, tell me about
28:26
this. Tell me how this is working for you. And
28:29
it's great when companies will say, Hey, I can
28:34
share my list of folks that are willing to talk
28:36
to you about our product as well as how it's
28:40
gone for them so that you will have an idea of
28:42
how it can work with you. Um, and LMS, as you
28:47
said, there's an LMS company that Uh, they came
28:51
to me several times when they had districts,
28:53
my size, the same size as mine, thinking about
28:56
purchasing the product and, and they want me
29:00
to be a voice for them. And I love when they
29:04
say, just tell them what you think. If you feel
29:07
that you're not doing right by you, let them
29:10
know. I was like, I will. And just being able
29:14
to have referrals like that. I think that's another.
29:18
a positive place for vendors to operate, just
29:22
knowing their clientele and making sure that
29:26
you know which, well, not just, you should be
29:29
satisfying all of them, but making sure that
29:34
there's a group that you, it's one of those things
29:37
where they do such a great job. You want to tell
29:39
their story. All right, so one of the things
29:41
that I wanted to touch on a bit more as well
29:44
is You know, over the last three years, we have
29:47
shifted into the AI space more and more. A lot
29:50
of conversations around that. And on your site,
29:54
there is a piece from there that says that you
29:58
help demystify AI. What is the, as you go to
30:03
districts, and you've mentioned maybe a few there
30:06
earlier, as you talk with superintendents and
30:10
principals at these districts, what is the thing
30:13
that Consistently comes up that you feel like
30:16
you have to kind of bat down. I guess like that.
30:18
It's a myth about AI That there's a perception
30:22
about it because if we have a district and district
30:26
leadership that's unfamiliar with that territory
30:28
They might have heard some things and so part
30:32
of that demystifying is knocking down some of
30:34
the myths What's the most persistent myth that
30:36
you're coming across? Students are only using
30:39
it for cheating and If you use AI, you're not
30:43
thinking at all. And it's one of those things
30:47
where, yeah, there's that Stanford study that
30:50
shows the amount of, the percentage of students
30:53
that were cheating prior to AI are the same percentage
30:56
of students that are cheating with generative
30:59
AI. And just helping folks understand the idea
31:04
of what is cheating. If someone's using it as
31:07
a thought partner, are you considering that cheating?
31:10
And in some districts, yes, they are. Uh, they're
31:13
saying, no, I shouldn't be used at all. And others
31:16
are saying, yeah, they're using the tools that
31:18
they have available to them. And if it's a cop
31:21
partner, then it makes. A lot of sense for them
31:23
to do that. We don't have enough money to pay
31:26
individual tutors for all the students. So if
31:29
they can get on AI and use it. So that's one
31:32
of the big things is the whole idea of it's just
31:35
used for cheating and then giving away your thinking.
31:40
Um, people feel that AI is just taking thinking
31:44
away and folks aren't thinking about what they're
31:46
doing and. Uh, big thing that I think it's magic
31:50
school. They say 80 % use 80 % of the AI outputs
31:53
and 20 % of your own thinking or your own thoughts.
31:57
I like to say never use more than 80 % of anything
32:01
with AI and never use less than 20 % of your
32:05
brain. Uh, I need you to make sure that you are
32:10
the human in the loop. You are the ones in control.
32:13
AI works for you, not against you. And it's up
32:17
to us to make sure that not only are we keeping
32:21
in step with the fact that We need to have us
32:25
as the human in the loop, but we need to make
32:27
sure that the students understand that that's,
32:30
uh, it's a tool that they can use in order to
32:33
grow from. I'm positive when calculators were
32:35
first introduced in the schools back in the 19
32:39
hundreds. Uh, yeah, I know I was surrounded,
32:41
uh, but. The whole thought was oh calculators
32:45
are gonna take over their thinking calculators
32:47
are gonna do this and do that Yeah, same thing
32:49
with the printing press. Yeah, same thing with
32:51
the radio the same thing with the smartphone
32:53
They have the potential to stymie some of our
32:58
thinking however With the thought partner so
33:03
AI could be that thing that partner and a really
33:07
quick example. Last night, my wife was talking
33:10
and she works at a college and they're doing,
33:12
of course they're doing this thing on AI because
33:14
they're a college and they have kids that generate
33:17
papers all the time. And she was talking about
33:19
bad things in AI. And I was like, well, do your
33:23
faculty understand some of the good things that
33:25
can be done with AI? And she's like, well, some
33:27
of them do, but a lot of them do not. They just
33:29
hate it. And I was like, well, okay. So I can't
33:32
speak Spanish really well. However, my AI tutor
33:35
that I have on my phone, it's actually Chad GPT.
33:39
Uh, it talks to me in Spanish and I tell it to
33:42
give me low level Spanish so that we can go through
33:45
and we can, we have a conversation together.
33:49
I'm not the best, but it understands what I'm
33:51
saying when I try to talk in Spanish. And it's
33:54
one of those understanding that it really isn't
33:58
as bad as they say it is. Um, Skynet hasn't been
34:02
invented yet, so I think we're good for a little
34:04
while. So that's one of the greatest things,
34:11
of course, is the cheating aspect. And the other
34:14
thing is the thinking aspect. Those are the two
34:16
things that I get the most pushback on. And then
34:19
I talk about, okay, what about teacher pay teacher?
34:22
When a teacher downloads something and they put
34:24
it in front of a student, are they thinking?
34:27
Are they cheating? Tell me how does that work?
34:31
And that's just one of the areas where I had
34:34
some issues when I was a principal, but I like
34:37
to bring that up when people talk about AI cheating
34:39
and the kids are cheating and blah, blah, blah,
34:43
et cetera. Yeah, it's a little bit of, well,
34:45
how are you using it? Are you using it in a way
34:47
that your students might look at and say, hey,
34:51
if you can cheat to make it, I can cheat to complete
34:54
it. Yes, when I have a teacher telling me that,
34:57
well, some students are concerned that this other
35:00
teacher is using AI because they got their paper
35:04
back and it was saying something about not including
35:07
parts of the book that hasn't even been assigned
35:10
yet. So I was like. Yeah, we need to have some
35:14
AI literacy with that print or with that teacher.
35:18
OK, so we are the integrate this podcast, right?
35:21
We talked about some of these big ideas, I think,
35:24
about about AI. And so now if let's just say
35:28
you're a math teacher, high school math teacher.
35:30
What is a practical way that a high school math
35:35
teacher could use AI to help improve a lesson
35:39
that they're doing and implement it in class
35:41
tomorrow? So one of the things that I like doing
35:47
with math teachers, take a picture of the problems
35:51
or if you have it digitally, upload it into AI
35:53
and say, hey, I need more problems exactly like
35:56
this, because it's a lot for a math teacher to
35:59
think of. think up problems and write them out
36:01
and do all the things. But yeah, I can do it
36:04
a little bit quicker for you and have the same
36:06
types of problems and same issues. Another thing
36:09
that I did with the math teacher, make these
36:11
a word problem, make this a story problem about
36:14
the Utah jazz and AI will do that. Um, with your
36:19
math problems, who knew? And some AI tools such
36:24
as, well, I'll give it magic school AI. I am
36:27
thoroughly impressed. by the fact that it will
36:30
create the graphs for you. I think Jim and I
36:32
does as well, uh, creates the graphs for you
36:35
and the higher order math skills that I don't
36:38
know. Um, yes, I was going to be a math teacher,
36:40
but I wasn't, uh, and I think of like the formulas
36:47
and things that AI is able to read AI is not
36:50
the best at math, but it's gotten so much better.
36:53
Um, so yeah, math teacher. scan this or take
37:00
a picture of it or upload this and have it give
37:02
you more problems like that. Have it give you
37:04
a word problem. Have it give you a problem. One
37:06
of the teachers at Duxbury, he was talking, I
37:10
think he's a biology teacher and he was talking
37:13
about the fact that he had a problem. Was it
37:18
math or social? I think it was math. I don't
37:20
know. Yes, math. And he said, create these questions
37:24
around the title forms or the waves and the tide
37:28
of Duxbury, Massachusetts and the times in and
37:31
the times out. So students have an understanding
37:34
of whatever the main topic was. And the output
37:41
was very specific to the town where they lived.
37:45
And he said, the kids are going to be intrigued
37:47
by this because it talks about the water and
37:50
the tides and it's specifically mentioning their
37:54
area where they live and it brings it closer
37:57
to home so that kids are more engaged with the
38:00
fact that I'm not just doing a worksheet or I'm
38:03
not just typing this thing up on the computer.
38:05
It's something that applies to my life directly
38:09
because I live it every single day. Right. And
38:11
then the buy -in for them is there. Yes. And
38:14
I think what you're saying is very transferable,
38:16
I think, to other disciplines and areas. You
38:19
know, like I think about, you know, like a primary
38:23
teacher who's teaching, you know, science of
38:26
reading. skills and the need to create decodable
38:31
passages for yes that are focusing on a certain
38:34
sound right and and to come up with those are
38:38
just you know like nerve -wracking for a lot
38:40
of a lot of teachers. Yeah, and then I think,
38:45
too, you know, like, it's really good in creating
38:48
those examples for you. But then I think also,
38:50
like, non -examples. Yes. You know, like, it's
38:54
so hard to come up with some of those non -examples,
38:56
like, if you're looking to, like, correct the
38:58
grammar in a passage. And then to tie in what
39:01
you were just saying, too, why not make those
39:04
passages about things that are relevant to the
39:06
students that are in your class? Yes. And I chuckle
39:09
when you talked about the codeables. I have a
39:11
friend using the PlayLab AI. I don't know if
39:14
you all are familiar with it, but it's an AI
39:17
program where you actually build an app through
39:20
it and her whole app is about... Creating decodable
39:24
so student will get in they'll put in some information
39:26
Basic information like their name and their favorite
39:30
color and something else and then the AI generates
39:33
a decodable story Just for that kid based around
39:37
those things. So I was like, yes decodables even
39:41
In the so there's a lot of great stuff that's
39:46
happening in that regard and one of the things
39:49
that we is very clear about with our AI uses
39:53
that we're working from behind always, right?
39:56
Because if you came out and everybody's got different
40:00
access to different tools and all that and they're
40:02
using them and could be using them for really
40:04
unique and interesting ways. But if we just take
40:07
a step back, what's the, if we look at ethical
40:12
implementation of these. before a district even
40:15
gets into maybe say purchasing a tool widely
40:19
for their district, whether it's Magic School
40:22
or School AI or things like this, what's the
40:25
most critical conversation that leadership has
40:28
to have prior to any of that, even though we're
40:33
behind? I think, of course, because I've seen
40:37
it, which scares me, the whole idea of PII, the
40:41
personal identifiable information, I know when
40:45
we're all locked down for the pandemic and the
40:48
gazillion tools came out to teachers and teachers
40:50
were just signing kids up for anything and everything.
40:53
And oh yeah, let me just put in the kids email.
40:56
I have this spreadsheet. I'll just copy in my
40:57
whole roster into this product. Um, yeah, that
41:02
was crazy. And we did a lot of that, uh, just
41:05
because, oh, emergency, but now they're still
41:09
While some are still doing it some have forgotten
41:12
the fact that that personal identifiable information
41:15
For the students should not be placed inside
41:18
of AI and it should be something that we guard
41:22
that's like One of the that's one of the top
41:27
things that I I try to make sure that folks understand
41:30
guard this the information of the students Just
41:35
because I well I've worked with the district
41:38
who's got stuck with some ransom, not necessarily
41:43
ransomware, but, uh, there was a company that
41:49
got hacked or whatever, and all the information
41:51
got out and student data shouldn't have been
41:53
in some of that stuff, but it was, and they had
41:56
access to student data and, um, that can mess
41:59
the person up if, well, you all know that, but
42:03
that's my, that's one of the things that I. try
42:06
to emphasize every time is the whole idea of
42:09
make sure that we're not putting in personal
42:12
identifiable information. And also understand
42:14
the fact that those models are trained, but they
42:19
may not be trained on your students specifically
42:22
in the sense of Talking to the professor at Fordham
42:27
university that rolled out AI to his whole school
42:29
and he was saying how the village where he's
42:32
from in India, they don't even have access to
42:35
some of the tools to get on the internet. So
42:38
he knows that AI is not being trained on their
42:41
data because they have no data on the internet.
42:44
And because of that, it's going to be biased
42:47
and it's going to pull from a, I guess. not just
42:51
the majority culture, but the majority of information
42:53
that's out there. So some of the things are going
42:55
to be biased. So be aware. So Greg, one of the
42:58
things that we like to do to close out the time
43:01
that we have together is to give you a series
43:03
of lightning round type questions where you can
43:06
respond with just a few words or if you feel
43:10
like this is a launching off point into a whole
43:12
nother conversation, you know, we can, I guess,
43:15
continue with that. But so would David and I
43:18
just kind of alternate them back and forth? forth,
43:20
so feel free to go whatever direction you would
43:23
like to with any of them. Sound good? Okay, so
43:26
who do I look at first? So I'm gonna lead off
43:28
with the first one. I don't know whichever direction
43:31
that is. So Greg, what's your go -to non -ed
43:37
tech way to have fun on a weekend? Go -to non
43:40
-ed tech way to have fun on the weekend is pulling
43:43
out my bass guitar or jumping on the piano and
43:46
just banging out some songs. Awesome. Well, just
43:52
a side question, what's your favorite song to
43:55
play on bass? That's a good question. I don't
44:00
know. Earlier today, yes, I had it out earlier
44:04
today and I was playing around. I was doing some
44:06
Red Hot Chili Peppers. I went through a couple
44:08
of different ones because you know, flea, you
44:11
got to. But I don't know. I don't have a favorite
44:17
song to play on bass. Bass is just fun. Do you
44:21
play? Regular guitar, not bass, but yeah. It's
44:25
okay. It still has strings. What's your favorite
44:31
song to play on guitar? On guitar? Probably right
44:36
now. I've been playing some Tool songs. Nice.
44:41
That's fun. Sorry, yeah, I can clap that's about
44:44
my extent abilities Well, we could start a band
44:48
it's our basket tomorrow Jeremy could seem to
44:53
All right, second lightning round question What's
45:00
the one app on your phone that you use just for
45:02
pure fun has absolutely nothing to do with education.
45:06
Oh Man, so I have an app on the phone that I
45:09
use for all the things but Oh, well, no, ah,
45:13
that's nothing to do with education. Well, I
45:17
don't know. See, that's the problem. My camera
45:20
is the number one app on the phone period. Um,
45:23
and then I have my meta glasses and I like to
45:25
use the meta AI, uh, every now and then I do
45:29
like to stream from my glasses. Um, just because
45:33
it's crazy to stream from your glasses and people
45:36
are sending you messages. Hey, what is this?
45:38
And they'll look down on my phone and they're
45:39
like, wait a minute. I do like that. That makes
45:42
me happy. Outside of EdTech or leadership, what's
45:49
the best book or podcast you've either read or
45:52
listened to recently? I'll go back to, it's been
45:56
a couple of years ago and I've read some books
45:58
since then, but I go back to Think Again by Adam
46:03
Grant. I don't know if you're familiar with it.
46:06
But yeah, he wrote that in originals. I think
46:09
was yes originals came and then think again and
46:11
then That third book which actually dealt a whole
46:16
lot more with school than think again, but I
46:18
really like think again I think think again was
46:21
actually mentioned also by I guess we had on
46:24
recently Nick Caniglio Okay, that was his favorite
46:28
also. Yeah, it's have you had a chance? I have
46:32
I did the audiobook of it. Okay. Yeah That's
46:35
okay. And I like Adam Grant. Um, after I read
46:38
the book, I actually sent, uh, I sent an email
46:41
to him and James clear. He wrote, um, atomic
46:44
habits. Wait, was it James clear? I sent it to,
46:49
yeah, I think so. Uh, yes, I sent an email to
46:53
both of them saying, Hey, I think these are great
46:56
for schools. I think we need to get together
46:58
and work on how we can get, get this involved.
47:02
Are y 'all willing to work together? Or can I
47:04
just pull the information that I believe from
47:07
your books and make a presentation for school
47:10
people? And, uh, never heard back from James,
47:13
but Adam was like, yeah, sure. That sounds great.
47:16
And then with this second book, uh, or his third
47:18
or whichever, I don't know, the next book that
47:20
came out, I sent him the same email and I was
47:24
like, thank you for responding last time. Any
47:27
idea, any hope that I could do similar things
47:29
with this book? He was like, permission not needed.
47:33
But granted, because this whole podcast at the
47:36
time was called granted. I'm like, dude, she's
47:38
trying to be cheesy anyway. There you go. Yeah.
47:43
Yeah. And then so, Greg, you're you're based
47:46
out of Chattanooga, Tennessee. So I'm curious,
47:50
what's the one local food spot or hidden gem
47:53
that you always recommend to visitors? Depends.
47:59
Do you want to spend a lot of money or a little
48:01
money? Okay, so if you want to spend a lot of
48:07
money, there's this restaurant called St. John's.
48:10
It's fabulous. It's really good. I think I know
48:16
the, yeah, I do know the owner. It's a little
48:19
pricey. Actually, it's extremely pricey, but
48:23
it's just, it's a dining experience. I don't
48:25
think they have any Michelin stars, but I think,
48:30
well, no, we have another restaurant that As
48:32
mentioned by Michelin, Michelin, but, um, I think
48:35
this is the closest thing to, um, amazingly fine
48:38
dining that you can find here in Chattanooga.
48:41
And the other place would be, Oh, wow. I'm just
48:46
thinking there's this, there's this Mexican restaurant
48:50
that's downtown and it's. It's not as authentic
48:57
as you would think in the sense of they still
48:59
give you chips and salsa because they don't do
49:01
that in Mexico. But, um, they give you chips
49:03
and salsa, but the food there is amazing. Uh,
49:07
and it's La Altenia. So if you're ever in Chattanooga,
49:10
just go down to La Altenia. It looks like it's
49:13
connected to a grocery store and, um, people
49:16
can almost speak English really well, almost,
49:19
but the food is amazing and it's a lot cheaper
49:23
than St. John's. Perfect. How about one more?
49:27
If you could take another trip, you've been crisscrossing
49:29
the country here, but if you could kind of plan
49:31
your own spot to go, what would be your first
49:35
destination? For let's make this one about work
49:40
to go to to spread your message to someplace.
49:45
You know, I was in a group of AI by coherence
49:52
and. Uh, just working with some of these folks,
49:55
I was like, Oh, I really would love to go to
49:57
your district and just hang out. And that was,
49:59
uh, Hawaii that the books were from Honolulu.
50:03
And I was like, I really just want to go there.
50:06
Hang out. And maybe we can have a conversation
50:08
or two about, I don't know why, but. Yeah. Perfect.
50:15
Well, Greg, we can't make you enough for taking
50:17
the time to join us. We know that you're really
50:19
busy and like Jeremy said earlier, you're around
50:22
making the rounds and going to a lot of places
50:24
and presenting and everything. Do you want to
50:26
share with us where folks can reach out to you
50:30
or find you or maybe anything that you have coming
50:33
up that folks should know about that you want
50:35
to? that we can put in our show notes, your profile,
50:39
and any of those type of things. Sure, lots.
50:41
So reach out, find me. I'm on the socials at
50:44
Greg Bagby. That's Twitter or ex Twitter. Blue
50:49
Sky, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Yeah, at
50:55
Greg Bagby. Email Greg Bagby at gmail .com. I
50:59
have a website, gregbagby .com. And upcoming.
51:05
Uh, what is this? Okay. We don't know. I just
51:08
finished like last week I was at the independent
51:11
schools for Tennessee and then I did the training
51:13
in Massachusetts and then I went to the Georgia
51:15
tech conference, but coming up, uh, I will be
51:18
at the Tennessee educational technology conference,
51:22
which is in Chattanooga this year, which is great.
51:24
So I just have to drive downtown. Uh, and then
51:27
I'll be on the ditch summit ditch that textbook
51:30
summit or did summit. I don't know where. Yeah.
51:33
The ditch summit with Matt Miller. Yeah. With
51:35
Matt Miller, I'll be doing a spot with Matt Miller
51:38
and, um, and that's always fun because Matt's
51:41
a great guy. Uh, and then after that I'll be
51:44
at FETC and then NCC in Seattle. Um, and I may
51:50
be in New York doing a session, but it's a closed
51:52
session with the, um, but the company next month.
51:57
Um, thankfully all the planes will be flying
52:00
then. So. Yeah, I, I squeaked out getting, uh,
52:05
my flight last week and then so many people miss
52:09
flights this weekend. Um, just thankful that
52:12
they should be up and running by the time I hop
52:14
on a plane again. Anyway, so that's where I am.
52:16
Uh, I'd love to connect with you all. Uh, and
52:20
I also do this zero cost AI literacy slash training,
52:24
uh, that this one big company, I don't know if
52:28
I am I allowed to say all this? You could cut
52:31
him out if not. Yeah, I do some contract work
52:34
with another company and IBM has tried to remind
52:38
folks. Oh yeah, we did AI. Remember we had Watson
52:40
and a big in Jennings. So IBM is offering zero
52:45
costs. educational AI training, lots of different
52:52
levels. And if you have 25 or more of your favorite
52:56
friends, I can offer it to you. And you can see
52:59
me, um, uh, training your folks and it's, uh,
53:04
it's a bitly bit .ly slash Bagby AI with a capital
53:08
B and a capital AI. And I would love to work
53:11
with you all, help you out, whoever you, wherever
53:13
you may be out there. They got this one's great.
53:16
Maybe we'll we'll be able to cross paths and
53:19
at FETC as well because I'll be there So we'll
53:22
be able to catch each other. So Yes, yes, and
53:25
I guess you all are some cold and snowy today,
53:29
right? Yeah When he's from Chicago, she's been
53:33
sending pictures. I was like, oh, okay, and it's
53:36
20 something degrees here. So surely if it's
53:39
that cold in Tennessee, you're Thanks for listening
53:59
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54:02
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54:21
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