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The Hard Truth About Working in Ocean Conservation · How To Protect The Ocean

• 0:00
  11 years ago to this day,
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  I published the first ever,
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  how to protect the ocean podcast episode.
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  What is now known as the how
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  to protect the ocean podcast
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  episode, it was known as a
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  different podcast back then.
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  I will tell you all about it.
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  Plus what that podcast has
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  led me to become and how it's
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  helped me in my career.
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  So we're good today is not just about
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  celebrating the fact
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  that this is 11 years.
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  Today I'm going to be
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  talking about in this episode,
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  what it's like to have a
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  career in marine science and
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  conservation, whether it's science,
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  conservation policy,
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  or that, and what it takes
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  to have this and what to know
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  before you get into this, or
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  as you're going through it,
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  we're going to talk about the hardships.
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  We're going to talk about what it takes.
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  We're going to talk about
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  how many times you have to
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  volunteer with getting your own
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  experience and the patience
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  you need to get what you want.
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  That's all on today's
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  episode of the how to protect the
• 0:54
  ocean podcast, because this
• 0:55
  is where you get your ocean,
• 0:57
  use update every
• 0:58
  weekday, Monday to Friday.
• 1:00
  If you want to find out
• 1:01
  what's on tomorrow's episode,
• 1:03
  all you have to do is hit that follow
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  button and you will get
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  all the episodes to your
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  phone or to your device.
• 1:08
  However you listen to
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  this each and every weekday,
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  Monday to Friday,
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  let's get into the episode.
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  Cause look 11 years ago, I
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  published my first episode.
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  It was called speak up for
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  the blue, speak up for blue.
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  That's what it was called. Speak up for
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  blue, not speak up for the blue,
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  speak up for blue. That
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  was the company I had.
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  I had created this company while I
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  eventually created this company.
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  But it started off as a hobby.
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  It started off as for me, I wanted to
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  create a podcast because I'd done YouTube
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  before I had done blog posts before,
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  but this podcast thing was
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  something that I want to try.
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  I had done in 2014, I had done a number
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  of recordings for people where I had
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  interviews because it was once a week and
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  that's when I did my interviews.
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  And I'll be honest after
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  I published that episode,
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  I did not realize at the time of my life
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  would change in
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  trajectory in terms of a career.
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  Something I did not, did not expect was
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  not ready for and it continues today.
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  And I love it.
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  And it's the reason why I have the job
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  that I have today as an ocean,
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  as an ocean communications
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  manager at Pisces oceans.
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  And if you want to know more and work
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  with us at Pisces oceans,
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  if you want to know community strategy,
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  all that kind of stuff,
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  you can go to Piscesoceans.ca.
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  But this is what it's, it's come to and
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  me building a community,
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  building a community where
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  people can get access to me,
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  talk about oceans, talk about careers,
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  talk about whatever you want and support
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  the work that I do each and every day.
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  Cause I published five days a week.
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  I went, I went from publishing one day a
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  week to publishing five days a week,
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  11 years later to give you as much of as
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  much as I can about the ocean that I know
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  and that I know from others and I'm
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  learning constantly to you.
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  And if you want to
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  support me in any kind of way,
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  you can do that by going to
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  speakupforblue.com forward slash Patreon
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  that speakupforblue.com
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  forward slash Patreon.
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  Now look,
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  I did not expect that podcasting or any
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  kind of content creation would help me to
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  get a position as a job.
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  There's no way I thought
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  that was going to happen.
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  I thought back in 2015,
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  when I first published,
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  I thought that I was going to create and
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  become a content creator.
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  And have a business through content
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  creation, get sponsorships
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  and all this kind of stuff.
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  That didn't quite work out as
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  a full-time gig, which is fine.
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  But I spent and I've dedicated 11 years
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  to trying to bring you the great
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  information of the ocean,
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  ocean conservation and the people that
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  are working in ocean
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  science and conservation
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  and the wonderful things that are
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  happening there and sometimes
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  the not so wonderful things.
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  And that's been a huge pleasure for me to
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  be able to bring to you.
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  But during that time, I've had some
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  absolutely incredible experiences and
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  opportunities because I did this podcast.
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  And look,
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  the podcast and the science communication
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  came out of me being a
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  marine biologist in Ontario.
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  And the reason why I was a marine
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  biologist in Ontario is because when I
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  met my now wife of 21 years,
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  we decided to raise our kids
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  and have our family in Ontario.
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  And I said, what I expected
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  when I grew up? Absolutely not.
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  As I was growing up, I was expecting to
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  probably live down in the US or live on
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  the coast of Canada or live
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  somewhere around the world.
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  Being on the water, being on a boat most
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  of the time and enjoying and swimming
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  with dolphins and whales and sharks and
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  all these kinds of things.
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  I had huge dreams of what I
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  wanted to do when I grew up.
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  I got to live a part of it for some time,
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  but it was not easy by any means.
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  And I want to dedicate this episode to
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  what it's like to work and not work in
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  marine science and conservation.
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  Because I wanted to put out a warning to
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  all of you who are just
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  starting out their career.
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  It is tough.
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  It is one of the toughest things to get
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  jobs, permanent jobs,
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  and have a specific lifestyle that you
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  and maybe your friends
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  have or expect to have.
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  You know, permanent placements, a place
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  to live, like a house or an apartment or
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  a condo that you bought,
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  family, like kids and things like that if
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  you decide to do so.
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  You know, being able to pay
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  bills, being able to do that.
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  It is not that easy,
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  especially these days.
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  And times have changed. There are more
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  marine biologists and
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  conservationists out there.
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  There are more NGOs out there and there
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  are more like private companies,
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  nonprofit
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  organizations that are out there,
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  academic institutes that are out there.
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  But there aren't as many jobs because the
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  funding isn't as much
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  to handle all of that.
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  And so when you have nonprofits that are
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  trying to hire, they're hiring
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  people for very little money.
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  You know, oftentimes $50,000 a year,
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  which sounds okay when you come out of
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  school and you're starting to build, but
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  that's not sustainable.
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  If you want to have a family, you know,
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  you and your partner may or may not be
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  able to, if you're earning the same, if
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  you're in the same kind of business, you
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  know, may or may not
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  be able to accommodate.
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  You may have to have a different
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  lifestyle, which is fine. If you want to
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  have that lifestyle, you know, of, of,
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  that's different from what sort of like,
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  what's considered like the dream, the,
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  the quote unquote American dream, white
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  picket fences, that kind of stuff.
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  You may or may not be able to attain that
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  on if you're both
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  earning 40 to $50,000 a year.
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  So, so you have to start, you know, like
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  I always, I always tell people, you have
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  to look at what type of job you want,
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  like in your career and
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  what type of career you want.
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  And what does that lifestyle look like?
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  And what kind of lifestyle
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  do you want? Do you envision?
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  Because your job and your
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  lifestyle may not jive together.
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  And I always say that to people and I
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  understand like when I first came out, I
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  just want to work. I just wanted, I would
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  work for free. I would
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  do all that, that stuff.
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  But now I look back as a 47 year old
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  turning 48 this year and all the stuff
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  that I've been through and what I've seen
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  friends go through some very successful,
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  some, you know, successful in their own
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  rights in terms of specific things
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  they've been able to
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  attain through their careers.
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  But maybe not from a lifestyle
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  perspective or maybe not where they
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  expected to be when they first started
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  and they just kind of live paycheck to
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  paycheck or they, they live from place to
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  place, renting different places or they,
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  they travel so much that
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  you may not have a place.
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  There's a lot of things that go on within
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  the marine science and conservation.
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  I know I'm talking more about lifestyle
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  here instead of like what you actually
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  want to do for a career
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  because I think it's important.
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  I think it's because it's something that
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  we don't always think about when we first
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  think about getting a job.
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  Because with marine biology and even
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  marine science and conservation, you can
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  work anywhere in the world.
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  But what's that lifestyle going to be?
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  How far are you going to be away from
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  your family? How far are you going to be
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  away from what you know and love like
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  your country? Are you going to be able to
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  live in your country? Are
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  you going to be living abroad?
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  Which sounds cool, but it comes with a
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  lot of sacrifice and a lot of hardships
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  ahead, but some great opportunities and
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  some great adventures and you might meet
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  the person of your dreams and have a
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  great partner in that new place and all
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  that kind of stuff and have a different
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  lifestyle than you may have expected.
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  The point is, is when it comes to
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  lifestyle and it comes to jobs in this
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  field or in this like plethora of fields
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  within this, you know, sort of umbrella
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  of marine science and conservation, you
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  can have a lot of different things and
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  you have to adapt to
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  those different things.
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  Right? And my best advice to you about
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  the lifestyle that you would lead in
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  those is talk to people who are doing the
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  things that you want to be doing. If you
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  see a creator who's doing some science
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  and they're doing either PhD or postdoc
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  or they're working for an organization or
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  they're working in science communication
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  or they're working as a policy person or
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  they're working, you know, and you see
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  them doing creative stuff and they're
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  online and they're telling you about
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  their jobs, reach out to them and ask
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  them what's their lifestyle like? You
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  don't have to ask them what they get paid
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  and all that kind of stuff. But what's
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  their lifestyle? Say, I want to have a
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  very similar life like you. Can we sit
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  down and chat? I'd love to hear what you
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  did to get to attain this career and what
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  to know about and what are the advantages
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  and disadvantages because we always see
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  the advantages, especially when we see,
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  you know, stuff online. We see the fun
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  stuff, but we don't see the behind the
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  scenes stuff. And although there are
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  very, there are a lot more creators who
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  are very transparent with the type of
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  work that they do and how much they not
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  necessarily how much they are, but the
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  lifestyle that they lead and everything
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  and how difficult it is.
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  You know, there's still some people who
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  make it look like everything's dreamy.
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  And so I want people to really understand
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  that attaining a job and attaining a
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  career in marine science and conservation
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  is very difficult, especially when you
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  have a specific lifestyle that you want.
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  And there are jobs that provide it that
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  are more administrative and may
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  managerial that will be able to get have
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  great pay and or at least livable wages.
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  But you know, there's a lot that aren't.
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  And so knowing that I think it's
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  important before you go into it. So it's
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  just like a warning for all of you. I get
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  a lot of parents who asked me, you know,
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  high school students and things like
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  that, that are are wondering, like, hey,
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  I really did. My kid really wants to go
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  into marine biology. Can you talk to
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  them? I talked to them and they're very,
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  you know, they're eager. They're ready to
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  do whatever. But like, I don't know if
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  they understand because like, how can you
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  ask a high school kid to like say, hey,
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  how do you want to live your life?
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  You're 35. It's very difficult to do,
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  right? So a lot of times I talk to
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  parents like, look, it's a very difficult
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  thing to navigate because funding is not
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  always constant. Changes all the time. A
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  lot of the jobs are like within for
• 10:45
  months, not even years. So like it's very
• 10:48
  there's a high turnover rates with a lot
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  of organizations. A lot of times there's
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  volunteering involved. There's a lot of
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  travel may not be that at the employees
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  expense. Maybe at your own expense.
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  You can get volunteering jobs and you can
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  get internships where you pay people to
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  get experience, but that's not always
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  great for you and it costs a lot of
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  money. So if you those who don't have a
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  lot of money to do is kind of unfair for
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  them, but they have to come up with that
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  money to find that kind of that kind of
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  experience, you know, so it's.
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  It's so hard. It is so hard to kind of
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  figure that out. And I see a lot of a lot
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  of people getting degrees from all over
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  the world and then they travel to
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  different parts of the world where is
• 11:31
  lower cost of living. They
• 11:33
  can work as a dive master.
• 11:35
  They can work in the eco tourism and
• 11:36
  still do science. There are some people
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  who have become creators or consultants
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  who have like almost like secondary jobs
• 11:43
  that help pay the bills so they can do
• 11:44
  their science and conservation work.
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  And there's a lot of other people. We are
• 11:47
  in a very different stage than when I was
• 11:50
  20 some odd years ago
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  when I first started.
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  Or you know, is really you needed a job
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  to be to get money in this. You know, you
• 11:59
  couldn't just do a content creator and
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  earn money from that and do
• 12:03
  the work that you want to do.
• 12:05
  And you know, even with the content
• 12:07
  creation, if you get sponsored, you get
• 12:08
  people to pay you to do out science
• 12:10
  communication stuff. You have to be
• 12:11
  careful of who's paying you and why
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  they're doing it. And if that's what you
• 12:15
  want and that's what you're ready to do.
• 12:17
  There's judgment that goes along with
• 12:19
  that. There's still a lot of myths that
• 12:23
  are involved with science communication,
• 12:24
  especially as quote unquote influencers
• 12:26
  or what I like to call content creators.
• 12:28
  Not a lot of people in science and
• 12:30
  conservation have a good experience or
• 12:34
  have a good outlook on people who are
• 12:36
  doing stuff online to make money and try
• 12:38
  and come up with their stuff, which
• 12:39
  that's their problem is not your problem.
• 12:41
  You do what you need to do to get your
• 12:44
  money and to be able to do what you want
• 12:47
  to do. I feel like we are in a time where
• 12:50
  we are in a good time to have like a
• 12:54
  separate kind of not necessarily a side
• 12:56
  hustle, but you can do both.
• 12:57
  In content creation and really be able to
• 13:00
  push forward. But the real like the thing
• 13:03
  is what I want to cover today as well is
• 13:05
  like the work like so I have a job that
• 13:08
  so all my every time I do my podcasting
• 13:11
  has always come as a hobby.
• 13:14
  If you want to describe it as that. I
• 13:16
  always called it my full time job that I
• 13:17
  ever got paid for. I had sponsorships
• 13:20
  every once in a while, but nearly not
• 13:21
  nearly enough to go full time or not
• 13:23
  nearly enough to pay the bills.
• 13:25
  At one point I did quit one of my jobs, a
• 13:31
  very secure job to do this full time and
• 13:34
  to do some consulting as well on
• 13:37
  podcasting and the consulting didn't work
• 13:39
  out. I had to do full time and didn't
• 13:40
  know how to make money off of it.
• 13:42
  You know, just didn't couldn't put it
• 13:45
  together. I went into big debt for about
• 13:48
  three years and then had to get a job in
• 13:50
  a very different fields in finance and
• 13:53
  public sector budgeting software and sass
• 13:57
  and all that kind of stuff. And I had to
• 13:59
  recoup from that. You know,
• 14:01
  you live in your learn right?
• 14:04
  And so, but now I have a job as an ocean
• 14:07
  communications manager. And if you go to
• 14:09
  the beyond jaws podcast a couple episodes
• 14:12
  ago, I did an episode where I talked
• 14:14
  about how I got this job, but I'll go
• 14:16
  into it here for those of you who haven't
• 14:18
  listened to that episode.
• 14:19
  I highly recommend you go there because I
• 14:21
  did talk a lot about it, but I had to put
• 14:24
  the work in and I had to be very patient.
• 14:27
  You know, 16 years ago, I decided that I
• 14:30
  was going to go into science. I was going
• 14:31
  to do science communication. I eventually
• 14:34
  the all the thought was always to do it
• 14:35
  on my own and to do that as full time
• 14:38
  started off as a blog, did YouTube for
• 14:40
  those of you listening.
• 14:41
  You've you've heard the story before got
• 14:42
  into podcasting, start publishing,
• 14:45
  published my first episode 11 years ago
• 14:47
  and haven't stopped since.
• 14:48
  I'm almost at 2000 episodes.
• 14:50
  I've done interviews like well over 1000
• 14:53
  interviews and the rest have been solo
• 14:55
  episodes. I've changed up my frequency.
• 14:58
  I've done all I've tried to get sponsors.
• 15:00
  I've done all I've done a lot within this
• 15:02
  content creation business.
• 15:03
  I love it. I will never regret it because
• 15:05
  it opened up a lot of opportunities for
• 15:07
  me. And the reason it did that is because
• 15:09
  I was doing this on my own.
• 15:11
  And the first time I got a taste of it
• 15:13
  wasn't necessarily for myself, but I was
• 15:15
  doing I was doing this podcast. It was
• 15:18
  like my first year doing this podcast
• 15:20
  like the first couple of years and a
• 15:22
  friend of mine, Nathan Johnson, who I
• 15:25
  didn't know before this became a friend
• 15:27
  after forever friends.
• 15:28
  And he was working in like a for a
• 15:32
  conservation organization in Texas and he
• 15:36
  reached out to me, said, Hey, I want to
• 15:38
  get into more writing. I see that you're
• 15:39
  doing episodes. I would love to your show
• 15:42
  notes. Perfect. Let's do this. Okay. This
• 15:44
  is great. So we started to work together.
• 15:46
  Then we started to get on the podcast
• 15:47
  together. He worked with me for with me
• 15:49
  on for like a year and a half, two years,
• 15:52
  I think got to know each other. He was a
• 15:53
  great guy. Still is a great guy. And he
• 15:57
  got a job and I was one of his references
• 16:00
  because he asked me to be running his
• 16:02
  references because he dedicated a lot of
• 16:04
  his spare time to doing this podcast.
• 16:06
  And I told the person in like the
• 16:08
  reference and hey, like this guy's does
• 16:10
  this for fun. You know, talking about
• 16:13
  science, we would do like an ocean talk
• 16:15
  Friday and we would do all this kind of
• 16:17
  stuff together. He did it for fun. He did
• 16:20
  it because he loved it.
• 16:21
  And he got better at communicating
• 16:22
  because of it. And he got a job that was
• 16:25
  partly internal communications with
• 16:27
  donors for a very big
• 16:29
  organization in ocean conservation.
• 16:32
  And look, the guy was amazing. Would he
• 16:34
  have gotten the job otherwise? Probably.
• 16:37
  But this was just icing on the cake. When
• 16:39
  the person is like, I really needed to
• 16:41
  know this. Like the person
• 16:42
  who asked me for the reference.
• 16:44
  She said, I really need to know that I
• 16:46
  really needed to know this is great to
• 16:48
  hear. Like he's very dedicated to what he
• 16:49
  does. And I said, absolutely. He's very
• 16:50
  dedicated. So that was the first taste I
• 16:53
  had of someone getting an opportunity
• 16:56
  from podcasting. Not to say that it
• 16:58
  brought him that, but it
• 16:59
  helped him solidify the job.
• 17:00
  The guy was amazing anyway. He did
• 17:02
  amazing. He still does amazing and he
• 17:05
  would have done well whether he had my
• 17:07
  reference or not, but it helped because
• 17:09
  when employers see that you're willing to
• 17:11
  dedicate time outside of work, like for
• 17:13
  free as your hobby or doing something
• 17:16
  within the ocean conservation world.
• 17:18
  If you're trying to get an ocean
• 17:19
  conservation job, it helps. It helps to
• 17:22
  show that you have that initiative and
• 17:24
  that motivation to help you get to what
• 17:26
  you want to do in your
• 17:28
  life and in your job.
• 17:28
  Right. That's dedication. That's loyalty.
• 17:32
  And I started to get some of that as well
• 17:34
  through different opportunities. I went
• 17:36
  out to a couple of conferences over the
• 17:38
  years. I got flown out to one of them. I
• 17:41
  got a free stay. That was great. I got a
• 17:46
  job offer from it. Actually two job
• 17:48
  offers because then
• 17:49
  and I took both of them.
• 17:49
  The first one didn't work out. This one
• 17:52
  worked out or is working out so far. I
• 17:56
  got TV show roles, multiple. Like I've
• 18:00
  done four or five now. If you count all
• 18:02
  the seasons and everything. So like all
• 18:05
  these opportunities over these years have
• 18:07
  really benefited me. Right.
• 18:09
  And it benefited me and some paying gigs.
• 18:12
  It benefited me and some like
• 18:13
  opportunities to be in a, in front of a
• 18:15
  wider audience. It just helped in a lot
• 18:18
  of ways. And that has continued through
• 18:23
  over time to build my name up and build
• 18:27
  what I've been able to do.
• 18:28
  I didn't know anything about science
• 18:29
  communication before I started. I knew
• 18:30
  nothing. I didn't know about
• 18:32
  storytelling. I didn't know about the
• 18:34
  technical aspects of like podcasting,
• 18:37
  YouTubing and all that kind of stuff. I
• 18:38
  didn't know any of that.
• 18:39
  And now I'm at a point now where I'm
• 18:43
  working as an ocean communications
• 18:44
  manager. Now back then I wouldn't have
• 18:47
  like 16 years ago, I would not have been
• 18:48
  able to get a job in science
• 18:50
  communication. I just did not have the
• 18:51
  knowledge. I did not have the thing. I
• 18:53
  love talking about the ocean. Right. And
• 18:55
  I always had like some talent for it that
• 18:57
  I didn't even realize at that point. And
• 18:59
  even science communication wasn't like
• 19:00
  the biggest job back then. It was a lot
• 19:02
  of hobbyists. You know, you had deep sea
• 19:03
  news. You had Southern fried science. You had a couple of others. We had conferences and stuff like that. But people weren't really dedicated to that.
• 19:08
  They weren't getting paid for it full
• 19:11
  time. Now you're seeing more and more
• 19:12
  people getting paid for it. You had
• 19:14
  communications people, but they weren't
• 19:15
  like science communicators. And now we're
• 19:17
  starting to see more and more of that
• 19:18
  through organizations and stuff. And so
• 19:20
  when I started looking around my this new
• 19:24
  opportunity for me was was great because the person who hired me Natalie Gilson, who I work for.
• 19:26
  with the people I work for she contacted
• 19:33
  me like three or four years ago through
• 19:35
  the podcast. She heard my podcast. We
• 19:37
  were both living in Ontario at the time.
• 19:39
  She reached out to me. Said, hey, you
• 19:41
  know I'm a marketer. I own my own
• 19:42
  business. I'm looking to get into oceans.
• 19:45
  It kind of had like I wanted to have more
• 19:46
  impact. And I would love to talk to you.
• 19:49
  Had her on the podcast. We talked about
• 19:50
  science communication. We talked about
• 19:52
  communication and conservation marketing
• 19:54
  and all that kind of stuff. We had a
• 19:56
  great conversation. We had a great conversation with a
• 19:56
  It went really well.
• 19:57
  We've been able to hit it off.
• 19:59
  Like we've done projects together.
• 20:01
  We've talked a lot and it's been great.
• 20:04
  And then when she
• 20:04
  approached me earlier this March
• 20:06
  to work for her, it was just like,
• 20:09
  it was an easy yes, to be honest.
• 20:12
  It was an easy yes.
• 20:13
  Everything fell in line.
• 20:16
  And the work I do now is a dream.
• 20:18
  It's a dream job because
• 20:19
  I've been working at it
• 20:20
  for so long.
• 20:22
  And my point of all this
• 20:23
  is that I had to work for it
• 20:24
  for so long.
• 20:25
  I didn't know if an
• 20:26
  opportunity would show up.
• 20:28
  I didn't know if I would
• 20:31
  get paid to do something.
• 20:32
  I didn't know that I was going
• 20:32
  to get TV shows because of it
• 20:34
  or offers for TV shows because of it.
• 20:36
  I didn't know any of that.
• 20:38
  All I knew is I knew what I wanted to do.
• 20:41
  I knew that I love to
• 20:42
  talk about the ocean.
• 20:44
  For me, my personal life,
• 20:46
  like just personal choices
• 20:47
  had kept me in Ontario,
• 20:48
  which was very difficult
• 20:49
  to do ocean conservation.
• 20:52
  And so I started this podcast to stay
• 20:54
  in connection with my
• 20:56
  colleagues and my friends.
• 20:58
  I also talk about the ocean all the time
• 21:00
  and stay up on the news and all the new
• 21:02
  research and everything like that.
• 21:04
  And almost two episodes later
• 21:06
  and three million downloads,
• 21:08
  I've been able to,
• 21:09
  you know, and a new job
• 21:12
  and a lot more friends that I
• 21:14
  had in like ocean conservation.
• 21:15
  I've been able to travel a lot more than
• 21:17
  I ever thought I would have.
• 21:19
  This has been a dream.
• 21:20
  It's hard work.
• 21:21
  There's no doubt about that.
• 21:23
  I did this long, long hours
• 21:25
  at night, you know, as a dad,
• 21:28
  I did coaching and
• 21:28
  all that kind of stuff,
• 21:29
  but this was always there and I always
• 21:32
  had to put episodes out and it was
• 21:34
  difficult, you know, and it's easier now,
• 21:37
  but it's still always,
• 21:38
  sometimes it's difficult
• 21:39
  to go through all this,
• 21:40
  the work that you have to go through to
• 21:42
  get everything out there and the money
• 21:45
  I've spent on this has just got
• 21:46
  ridiculous. You know,
• 21:48
  I'm definitely net negative in terms of
• 21:49
  the money, but it made it for me.
• 21:51
  Personally, it was a fun thing.
• 21:55
  Like it was something that I enjoyed and
• 21:58
  something that I looked to, to,
• 21:59
  to build on, you know, I don't think I'll
• 22:02
  ever stop podcasting. There's,
• 22:04
  there's no way I'll ever stop. And,
• 22:06
  and although I go through changes in my
• 22:08
  storytelling and putting a script
• 22:10
  together or using different software to,
• 22:14
  to record and I have lights and I have
• 22:16
  camera and I try and do YouTube now and
• 22:18
  all that kind of stuff as things evolve,
• 22:21
  I'm in a great place.
• 22:22
  Cause I know what the content that I want
• 22:24
  to talk about and I know that people
• 22:25
  like it and I know that I love doing it
• 22:28
  and it's gotten me a job because of it.
• 22:30
  It's got me back into ocean
• 22:31
  communications where
• 22:32
  if I stayed in Ontario,
• 22:33
  I probably wouldn't have worked in ocean
• 22:35
  communications ever again, right?
• 22:38
  Or anything ocean ever again.
• 22:41
  So this has allowed me to
• 22:42
  work in the dream scenario.
• 22:44
  I get to work from home. I get to be
• 22:45
  around the kids a lot.
• 22:47
  I get to be around my family.
• 22:49
  I get to work in oceans
• 22:50
  every single day, hours.
• 22:52
  I don't even care about how
• 22:53
  many hours I work anymore.
• 22:54
  Like I work more than eight hours a day,
• 22:56
  but I love it. It's like, it's,
• 22:58
  it's fun for me. And, and this is like
• 23:01
  the great opportunity,
• 23:02
  but it came with a lot of hard work. And,
• 23:06
  and the one of the major points of this
• 23:08
  episode is you might have to put in extra
• 23:11
  work, whether you're doing this, uh,
• 23:15
  paying to do that extra work or you're
• 23:17
  getting paid to do that extra work or
• 23:19
  you're doing it for free or with a net
• 23:21
  negative cause you have to invest in
• 23:22
  some equipment or anything like that.
• 23:24
  I'm not saying you have to start a
• 23:25
  podcast or do content creation,
• 23:26
  but you have to show people who you are
• 23:29
  and what you do because resumes are not
• 23:33
  going to cut it as much anymore.
• 23:34
  Now a good resume for a good job that you
• 23:36
  apply for and that you qualify for
• 23:39
  that will work eventually.
• 23:41
  But the way resumes are going in the way
• 23:43
  we are applying for jobs and with AI and
• 23:45
  everything like that,
• 23:46
  the game has changed folks.
• 23:49
  It's harder to get through to get that
• 23:51
  interview than it has ever been.
• 23:53
  And so networking or putting your name
• 23:57
  out there to become a little bit more
• 23:59
  popular opportunities will come.
• 24:01
  They may not come in what you expect them
• 24:03
  to come in the form that you expect them
• 24:04
  to come in, but they will
• 24:06
  arrive at some point in time.
• 24:08
  If you continue to put something out
• 24:10
  there that will really help you.
• 24:14
  And it might take a couple of people to
• 24:15
  recognize that like key people to
• 24:17
  recognize that, but I'm going to tell you
• 24:19
  it's going to be worth your while.
• 24:24
  And I, and it's hard work, but that's
• 24:27
  what's, that's what
• 24:27
  it takes to get there.
• 24:29
  And, and to do that as an analogy, to
• 24:31
  kind of come up with an analogy is,
• 24:34
  you know, when, when,
• 24:35
  um, blogging first started,
• 24:38
  uh, you know, when you, the first couple
• 24:41
  of people who did blogging,
• 24:42
  they were amazing.
• 24:43
  They were awesome because people listened
• 24:45
  to them all the time or read them all
• 24:47
  the time because they were the only ones
• 24:49
  that around it was new.
• 24:50
  People were just getting onto it.
• 24:52
  And then over time, more and more people
• 24:54
  started blogging about everything.
• 24:57
  And, and so we had like thousands and
• 24:59
  even millions of blog sites because
• 25:01
  everybody had a blog,
• 25:01
  even now people start blogs.
• 25:04
  And, and, and so it got so
• 25:06
  congested with information.
• 25:09
  That it was harder to stand out.
• 25:11
  Same thing happened with YouTube.
• 25:12
  Same thing happened with podcasts.
• 25:14
  When first, when the first couple of
• 25:15
  people came up with podcasts, like Joe
• 25:17
  Rogan, as much as you might hate the
• 25:19
  content that he puts out and him himself,
• 25:22
  I guess, uh, when he, he was one of the
• 25:24
  first people who started podcasting
• 25:26
  in like 2006, 2007, 2008.
• 25:29
  And he's continued to do that.
• 25:30
  Now he has been quite successful for a
• 25:32
  lot of different reasons and
• 25:33
  we don't have to get into those.
• 25:36
  But you know, he has been able to, like
• 25:39
  he started from the beginning.
• 25:40
  So he stood out and he has celebrities
• 25:41
  and stuff like, so he stands out even
• 25:43
  more when I first came out with my
• 25:45
  podcast in 2015, I was a little late to
• 25:48
  the party because it had started in 2018.
• 25:50
  There was a bit of a renaissance in 2014
• 25:51
  and 2012, and then it started to
• 25:53
  really grow as I started to go, I had way
• 25:56
  more listeners and downloads than I ever
• 25:58
  did before now with algorithms and
• 26:01
  everything like that, they may not have
• 26:02
  been like the perfect, you know, this,
• 26:04
  the most accurate number.
• 26:07
  But over time I was accruing a lot of
• 26:08
  people because not a lot,
• 26:09
  there weren't a lot of ocean
• 26:10
  podcasts. Now I was going around
• 26:12
  professing, like people
• 26:13
  should start an ocean podcast and
• 26:14
  your own voice and your own way and
• 26:16
  discuss what you want. And
• 26:18
  more and more people started
• 26:19
  and more and more people just podcasts in
• 26:20
  general, just balloon, like there are
• 26:23
  over 4 million podcasts.
• 26:25
  The last stat that I heard a few years
• 26:26
  ago. Now only 400,000 of
• 26:28
  those have put out episodes in the
• 26:29
  last 90 days, but there are 4 million. So
• 26:33
  there's so many podcasts, it's hard to
• 26:34
  compete with all those
• 26:35
  podcasts and all of the variety of topics
• 26:38
  that are out there. So, you know, the,
• 26:41
  the, it's difficult to get ahead,
• 26:43
  it's difficult to stand out and you, you
• 26:45
  have to continue to do it in consistency
• 26:47
  and get making sure your show is
• 26:49
  better and better and, and keep continue
• 26:51
  to work on it, continue to reach new
• 26:53
  audiences and everything like that.
• 26:55
  But the real thought of it is, is it was,
• 26:57
  you know, you eventually have to compete
• 26:59
  with everything and you have
• 27:01
  to, in the longevity of your
• 27:02
  podcast, you have to outwork everybody
• 27:04
  else that that's going to give up because
• 27:07
  they're not getting the
• 27:07
  traction that they want.
• 27:08
  Because it's not about the listeners. I
• 27:10
  mean, I always do it for the listeners.
• 27:12
  Don't get me wrong. But
• 27:13
  it's not all about how many
• 27:14
  listeners you have. It's about the
• 27:16
  quality of listeners. Right. Now I have
• 27:18
  had people, sponsors who have come on
• 27:20
  this podcast, talked
• 27:21
  about their organizations and everything
• 27:22
  like that. They would pay me to come on
• 27:24
  to do regular, you know, series. And I
• 27:28
  said, look, I don't have like a huge
• 27:29
  numbers. And they said, Andrew, it's not
• 27:30
  about the numbers. It's about the type of
• 27:32
  people that are on the podcast. It's,
• 27:33
  it's your audience that makes up
• 27:35
  that are engaged listeners, right? Your
• 27:38
  audience, a lot of them are into the
• 27:40
  business themselves. Plus those who
• 27:42
  aren't and they want to know more. Your
• 27:43
  audience is just quality audience. And
• 27:46
  that's what we're willing to pay to get
• 27:48
  in front of. And that's great. Right. But
• 27:51
  it's, it's like the hard work that
• 27:52
  goes through it. And then it's the, it's
• 27:54
  not just about the listeners in the
• 27:55
  audience. It's about the opportunities
• 27:57
  that come from who's listening in
• 27:58
  the audience and who has that foresight
• 28:01
  to be like, Oh, like Andrew's great. We
• 28:03
  really like, we'd love him for him to do
• 28:05
  this kind of stuff. We'd love
• 28:06
  him to do this kind of stuff. Now I've
• 28:07
  talked to people about various projects
• 28:09
  here and there and doing all this kind of
• 28:11
  stuff. Great opportunities
• 28:12
  that never amount to anything because
• 28:13
  that happens, you know, things change and
• 28:16
  that's okay. But I've, I would
• 28:18
  never had those opportunities
• 28:19
  presented to me if I didn't get in front
• 28:20
  of this microphone and I didn't speak to
• 28:22
  you right now. And so if you're, if
• 28:25
  you're looking to get
• 28:26
  in to marine science and conservation,
• 28:29
  you have to be willing to put in the
• 28:30
  work, whether you want a job or not, or
• 28:34
  whether you think you
• 28:34
  deserve a job or not, or you have all the
• 28:36
  qualifications, get above and beyond,
• 28:39
  make sure you stand out.
• 28:40
  Because there's a lot of
• 28:42
  different ways you can stand out. It
• 28:43
  doesn't have to be content creation. I'm
• 28:44
  using that as an example
• 28:45
  because I mean, look at the theme.
• 28:47
  It's my 11th year of publishing podcasts,
• 28:49
  but like that's the difference. Get out
• 28:53
  ahead and be careful
• 28:55
  what you talk about too,
• 28:56
  because if you get out ahead for the
• 28:57
  wrong reasons, nobody's going to want to
• 28:59
  hire you. So be careful of
• 29:00
  that. But if you do it properly
• 29:03
  and you get out ahead, whether you're
• 29:04
  doing a project or you do a couple of
• 29:07
  projects, like Andrew Thaler builds the
• 29:09
  open CTD, just released a
• 29:11
  new version of the open CTD.
• 29:13
  You know, like Angelo Villagomas had a
• 29:15
  blog that was, that was people were
• 29:18
  reading it from halfway across the world,
• 29:21
  standing out with great content.
• 29:23
  You know, David Shippen was on Twitter
• 29:25
  and talking like about sharks and
• 29:27
  everything like that, you know, Melissa
• 29:31
  Marquez, social media, like Queen in
• 29:34
  terms of what the content was, you know,
• 29:36
  getting on National Geographic, getting
• 29:38
  on Shark Week, all that kind of stuff.
• 29:41
  All these, like Diva Amman, same thing,
• 29:44
  National Geographic and doing all these
• 29:46
  shows, they just, the talent they come
• 29:48
  with and the willing that they're willing
• 29:51
  to, the fact that they're willing to put
• 29:53
  themselves out there and put the work in
• 29:55
  to do all this kind of stuff allows them
• 29:59
  to get the opportunities, puts them in a
• 30:01
  place to get those opportunities.
• 30:04
  So for a lot of people who are trying to
• 30:05
  get jobs out of university or they're
• 30:08
  trying to get jobs, like it's been a
• 30:09
  couple of years since they haven't been
• 30:10
  able to find anything, don't give up.
• 30:14
  Right. But come up with ways to stand
• 30:15
  out, network, invest in going to
• 30:18
  conferences. I know it's expensive. I
• 30:20
  know it can be expensive. Invest, go with
• 30:22
  a friend to make it cheaper, to stay in a
• 30:24
  place where you can both stay and go and
• 30:26
  invest in that time.
• 30:28
  Go meet people face to face, have
• 30:30
  conversations if you're looking for a
• 30:31
  job, you're looking for employers. Don't
• 30:33
  go asking for a job and asking, what do
• 30:36
  you do? What do you do? This is what I do
• 30:37
  and network your butt off and make those
• 30:40
  connections and build on those
• 30:42
  relationships when you get home.
• 30:44
  Reach out to them on LinkedIn, on social
• 30:45
  media, via email, help them out with
• 30:48
  anything they have. Work some free
• 30:49
  projects every once in
• 30:50
  a while if you need to.
• 30:52
  I remember doing statistical analysis for
• 30:53
  people that they probably had no business
• 30:55
  doing statistical analysis for, but they
• 30:58
  needed the help and I
• 30:58
  would help them out.
• 31:01
  You have to set yourself apart from
• 31:03
  everybody else and you have to put
• 31:05
  yourself out there to show the
• 31:06
  work that you're going to do.
• 31:09
  And people just don't get it this time.
• 31:12
  You can't come out in university and
• 31:13
  think that you deserve a job.
• 31:16
  Yes, you have a professional degree and
• 31:18
  you should be paid for the work that you
• 31:19
  do. I don't want to get caught into scams
• 31:22
  about paying for, you
• 31:24
  know, for experience.
• 31:27
  You know, that's a business model that
• 31:28
  predates on a lot of young students and
• 31:32
  it excludes a lot of young students who
• 31:34
  do not have the money, including myself.
• 31:35
  I did not have the money to do that kind
• 31:37
  of stuff. I dreamt about doing it, but I
• 31:39
  didn't have the money.
• 31:39
  But you should be able to do that type of
• 31:43
  work and get paid for it. It's as harder
• 31:46
  to compete for that those jobs. You have
• 31:48
  to be ready. You have to consult with
• 31:50
  other marine biologists and
• 31:51
  conservationists of how did you get a
• 31:53
  job? What the resume should look like?
• 31:54
  All this kind of stuff.
• 31:56
  But don't expect getting a job right out
• 31:57
  of school. I don't care what your university says.
• 31:59
  There's no like mass retirement. That was
• 32:02
  that's been said since I was a student.
• 32:06
  Everybody was supposed to retire. The
• 32:07
  baby moos are supposed to retire. Oh, hit
• 32:09
  a recession. Nobody's retiring. Right.
• 32:11
  They need the money.
• 32:13
  You know, you got to go out and you got
• 32:14
  to work for that job. Your university
• 32:16
  career as much as it costs. Right. As
• 32:19
  much as hard of work you put in.
• 32:22
  Everybody's putting in the same amount of
• 32:23
  work. Everybody deserves that type of
• 32:25
  job. How much more are you willing to do? Are you willing to do that?
• 32:27
  Are you willing to put a little bit of
• 32:31
  investment into a content creation studio
• 32:33
  or something like that? There are people
• 32:36
  out there that I admire that I respect
• 32:37
  that are young scientists, young
• 32:39
  biologists, young conservationists who
• 32:41
  are on TikTok almost every day talking
• 32:43
  and talking about their jobs, talking
• 32:45
  about what they do, talking about what
• 32:46
  they want to do, doing education things
• 32:48
  on the beach, doing beach cleanups and
• 32:50
  showing their journey and being very
• 32:52
  transparent and very real.
• 32:54
  And I admire respect the people. And when
• 32:56
  they get the opportunities, they may not
• 32:59
  have a huge following, but when they get
• 33:00
  the opportunities presented to them, they
• 33:01
  take them and they work at that and they
• 33:04
  build that experience.
• 33:06
  So this is a long episode, 30 minutes. I
• 33:08
  apologize, but it's the 11th anniversary
• 33:11
  of the podcast. It was actually
• 33:13
  yesterday, if you're listening to this on
• 33:15
  the 23rd, it was actually the 22nd. And I
• 33:17
  just realized it to be honest. Time goes
• 33:19
  fast. It's a busy time of year for me.
• 33:22
  But yeah, this is great. I want to thank you for coming.
• 33:23
  I want to thank you for listening to not
• 33:25
  only this episode, but all the episodes
• 33:27
  that you've listened to. This has been
• 33:30
  like a real treat to be able to do this.
• 33:31
  I'm going to continue
• 33:32
  for 11 plus more years.
• 33:34
  But this has been like a huge treat in
• 33:37
  being able to bring this information to
• 33:39
  you, to be able to for you to listen and
• 33:43
  with of my thoughts and my opinions and
• 33:45
  the work that I'm doing.
• 33:46
  You know, I really appreciate that work.
• 33:49
  And if you appreciate it and you want to
• 33:51
  support it, you can do so by going to
• 33:52
  speak up for blue.com slash Patreon. I've
• 33:55
  revamped my Patreon page.
• 33:57
  There's a couple of different, there's
• 33:59
  only a couple of different tiers that you
• 34:01
  can do. There's one where you just want
• 34:03
  to support us as a producer, like for
• 34:05
  producing the content, just support us as
• 34:07
  a show. That's great.
• 34:08
  Or if you want to do more, we can get
• 34:10
  together. Once we get enough people, we
• 34:12
  can get together like once a month, have
• 34:13
  discussions, talk about what I'm going to
• 34:15
  be doing lately, all that kind of stuff.
• 34:17
  I'm going to be sharing some things to
• 34:18
  new episodes that I'm
• 34:20
  coming up for ocean decoded.
• 34:21
  Like I post on YouTube. I post on these
• 34:23
  podcast apps. I post, I do newsletters. I
• 34:26
  do tweets. I do TikToks. I do Instagram.
• 34:29
  I got my content machine. And if you want
• 34:31
  to support that, that would be great. I
• 34:33
  really appreciate that. And of course, if
• 34:35
  you want to be a part of that, you can go
• 34:36
  a little higher,
• 34:37
  support a little higher rate.
• 34:38
  But but really the support that you give
• 34:41
  me by listening to this episode is
• 34:44
  absolutely phenomenal. If you want to do
• 34:46
  that more, you want to go higher. That's
• 34:48
  speak up for blue dot com slash Patreon.
• 34:50
  But I want to thank you so much for
• 34:52
  listening to this episode of the How to
• 34:54
  Protect the Ocean podcast. Have a great
• 34:56
  day. We'll talk to you next
• 34:57
  time and happy conservation.