Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / The Glam Gap + The Price of Admission in White America: with Token Black Girl Author Danielle Prescod

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The Glam Gap + The Price of Admission in White America: with Token Black Girl Author Danielle Prescod · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happened when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
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Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on pretty.
0:17
Speaker 1: This is pretty smart. Have you ever been in a
0:20
Speaker 1: group of people who you should feel comfortable with, they're
0:23
Speaker 1: your friends, but you just feel like an outsider. Danielle
0:28
Speaker 1: Prescott describes that feeling nearly her entire upbringing. She grew
0:33
Speaker 1: up in Westchester County, just outside of New York City,
0:36
Speaker 1: and was shuttled to a Catholic high school for girls
0:39
Speaker 1: in Greenwich, Connecticut, where the median income is about half
0:42
Speaker 1: a million dollars. She was one of just three black
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Speaker 1: girls in her graduating class, hence the token in her
0:49
Speaker 1: memoirs title Token Black Girl. She writes, I remember that
0:54
Speaker 1: the reality of blackness settled on to me like a
0:56
Speaker 1: terminal illness. I desperately wondered how I could get rid
0:59
Speaker 1: of it so I could just be like everyone else.
1:02
Speaker 1: It distressed me that I would never be cured of
1:04
Speaker 1: it and could never escape it. Sometimes she was forced
1:08
Speaker 1: to play the role of Scary Spice, the only black
1:11
Speaker 1: Spice girl. During pretend play, she straightened her hair adopted
1:15
Speaker 1: the same style and interests as her peers, dieted relentlessly
1:19
Speaker 1: to flatten her curves, developed a bit of a mean
1:22
Speaker 1: streak to divert attention, and she never ever spoke of race.
1:28
Speaker 1: Danielle started to shrink her identity to fit into a box,
1:32
Speaker 1: but at the time she didn't think of it like that.
1:34
Speaker 1: She was just being a kid wanting to fit in
1:36
Speaker 1: like we all do. So what does all that insidious
1:39
Speaker 1: messaging do to someone as they grow up? Well, it
1:43
Speaker 1: all got worse when she went to work in the
1:45
Speaker 1: fashion and beauty space. She calls it the eye of
1:48
Speaker 1: the racist and sexist beauty standard storm. She worked in
1:52
Speaker 1: the industry for fifteen years at Nylon, l in Style.
1:56
Speaker 1: Most recently she served as the style director of beet
1:59
Speaker 1: dot Com. Her dieting became a raging eating disorder, and
2:03
Speaker 1: her trendy workplaces in many ways, recreated the racial trauma
2:08
Speaker 1: from her youth. Danielle was one of the few people
2:11
Speaker 1: of color in her department, and she endured racial slights
2:14
Speaker 1: and erasure. She says it took career changes and years
2:18
Speaker 1: of therapy to arrive at a healthy sense of self,
2:25
Speaker 1: and I actually think that's When I met Danielle around
2:28
Speaker 1: the tail end of her moment of reckoning, we did
2:31
Speaker 1: a virtual panel together in twenty twenty. I remember her
2:34
Speaker 1: being really funny, authentic, and like she was pressing up
2:38
Speaker 1: against something. I could feel like she was going through
2:41
Speaker 1: a big transition. She intimated that she was thinking of
2:44
Speaker 1: moving out of her New York apartment, but wasn't quite
2:46
Speaker 1: sure where she wanted to go. Well, ultimately she landed
2:50
Speaker 1: in New Orleans. She quit her job, she published Token
2:53
Speaker 1: Black Girl, and she co founded two BG Consulting, which
2:57
Speaker 1: aims to help fashion and beauty brands and influence on
3:00
Speaker 1: their anti racism journeys. So much of Danielle's book is
3:04
Speaker 1: about identity, the one you assume, but also the one
3:09
Speaker 1: the world assumes for you. She writes, your identity and
3:13
Speaker 1: self awareness evolves slowly over time, both subtly and overtly,
3:18
Speaker 1: and how you decide to show up in the world,
3:20
Speaker 1: but it can also be dictated unfairly at times by
3:23
Speaker 1: how the world sees you. That's especially true if you
3:26
Speaker 1: find yourself to be a woman, and even more so
3:28
Speaker 1: if you find yourself to be a woman of color. Danielle,
3:34
Speaker 1: you've worked in the fashion space and the beauty space
3:37
Speaker 1: for a really long time, and now you're consulting for
3:40
Speaker 1: brands and I hear you on your Instagram talk a
3:44
Speaker 1: lot about sort of the places that have defined your career,
3:49
Speaker 1: and I want to know what some of the projects
3:51
Speaker 1: are that have defined your career in the work that
3:53
Speaker 1: you do.
3:54
Speaker 2: The last job, the last nine to five job that
3:57
Speaker 2: I had, I was the style director at BET and
4:00
Speaker 2: and one of the things I was tasked with was
4:03
Speaker 2: creating content for our YouTube channel because BT was a
4:08
Speaker 2: television network. But television networks become antiquated as we become
4:13
Speaker 2: more digital native people. There's an entire generation of young
4:17
Speaker 2: people who have never experienced cable television and never will.
4:20
Speaker 2: They like don't want to pay for it, they don't
4:22
Speaker 2: see the value in it, and so, you know, to
4:25
Speaker 2: reach audience and viewers where they were, we would do
4:29
Speaker 2: things that were like socially driven first. And so a
4:34
Speaker 2: few projects that I worked on when I was at
4:36
Speaker 2: BT that I found so meaningful. One was a series
4:40
Speaker 2: called The Glam Gap, and it was about the disproportionate
4:44
Speaker 2: ways that black women are tasked with participating in the
4:48
Speaker 2: beauty industry while their needs aren't necessarily being served, and
4:53
Speaker 2: so it was really about the money that was being
4:56
Speaker 2: spent by black women in order to you kind of
5:01
Speaker 2: reach a beauty standard. But they're spending twice three times
5:05
Speaker 2: as much as they're white peers. Because you have to
5:07
Speaker 2: test the foundation and that foundation doesn't work for you,
5:10
Speaker 2: now you got to test a new one, or things
5:12
Speaker 2: like we did a really great episode on maternal health
5:17
Speaker 2: and reproductive health and you know, finding doctors and how
5:22
Speaker 2: long it might take to find a doctor who can
5:25
Speaker 2: treat you and because you know, these are not specialties
5:29
Speaker 2: that are really explored in the medical field, and so
5:33
Speaker 2: that was really meaningful. I also did a show called
5:40
Speaker 2: Body of Work, and it was about people who did
5:44
Speaker 2: natural body transformations. And we're just super into health and
5:48
Speaker 2: wellness because I feel like there's this unspoken and I
5:52
Speaker 2: think that probably those of us who are in the
5:55
Speaker 2: entertainment industry are more aware than the general public is,
5:58
Speaker 2: but just how much plastic surgery people are getting, Like
6:03
Speaker 2: like as if.
6:03
Speaker 1: It's people don't know, they don't know.
6:07
Speaker 2: No, what's so insidious about it is someone will go
6:11
Speaker 2: get a BBL or get a boob job, and then
6:14
Speaker 2: they'll they'll pretend that they're working out. Now. This is
6:17
Speaker 2: kind of being replicated with like how much people are
6:20
Speaker 2: using ozempic, And I say, ozembic is like a blanket
6:23
Speaker 2: umbrella term kind of like Kleenex, we Go v Manjaro,
6:28
Speaker 2: some maglitude, whatever it all means ozempic.
6:31
Speaker 1: How about the things that are Like I think the
6:33
Speaker 1: word insidious that you used is so spot on. The
6:35
Speaker 1: things that like they just do like a little lift
6:38
Speaker 1: here and eyebrow thing, Like the small little changes that
6:42
Speaker 1: honestly makeup artists that I use in LA are the
6:45
Speaker 1: ones that tell me that these celebrities are doing it.
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Speaker 1: I don't even notice.
6:50
Speaker 2: So frequently, right, And yeah, the good work is super subtle,
6:53
Speaker 2: but like what's crazy is just a lying about it.
6:56
Speaker 2: And so Body of Work was about people who did
7:00
Speaker 2: actual transformations and are like super interested in health and
7:04
Speaker 2: it was so inspiring. Like I loved working on that show.
7:08
Speaker 2: It was so much fun and I was really really
7:11
Speaker 2: proud of it. And then when I was at Elle,
7:15
Speaker 2: I did a lot of projects that I really loved,
7:17
Speaker 2: but one in particular, like nobody will remember this, but
7:22
Speaker 2: I did a story I think in twenty fourteen where
7:27
Speaker 2: I found teacup pigs and I put them with like
7:33
Speaker 2: high fashion luxury accessories.
7:36
Speaker 1: Wait what, I don't even know where you're going with this.
7:41
Speaker 2: I know, Okay. So it all started in a pitch
7:44
Speaker 2: meeting because Miley Cyrus got a teacup pig as a pet. Okay,
7:51
Speaker 2: pigs do not stay small, but they're really really cute
7:54
Speaker 2: and small when you first get them. And I was
7:56
Speaker 2: just like, oh my gosh, this pig was all over
7:58
Speaker 2: her Instagram.
8:00
Speaker 1: I remember that party.
8:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, the pig was a thing. Yeah, And so
8:04
Speaker 2: I was like, what if we got teacup pig? So
8:08
Speaker 2: I called a pig rescue and my boss was like,
8:11
Speaker 2: you can do this, but like, you have to do
8:13
Speaker 2: it yourself. So I had to like produce the whole thing.
8:16
Speaker 2: So I'm calling the pig rescue. Then I'm also calling
8:19
Speaker 2: Chanelle being like, do you mind if I put your
8:22
Speaker 2: sunglasses on a pig? Like calling Selene, and they all
8:26
Speaker 2: let me do it. It was so crazy.
8:31
Speaker 1: Did they see your vision or why'd they agree?
8:33
Speaker 2: I have no idea why they agreed. I think they
8:35
Speaker 2: did trust me, and it came out amazing, Like It's
8:39
Speaker 2: truly one of the proudest stories I've ever worked. On
8:41
Speaker 2: like I loved it.
8:42
Speaker 1: I hear you talk about I think I call it
8:45
Speaker 1: your past life almost because you worked for all these
8:47
Speaker 1: big editorial fashion brands and now you are on your
8:52
Speaker 1: own and you've built your own brand. What do you
8:54
Speaker 1: know about the industry that we call your past life
9:00
Speaker 1: now that would have surprised you the most when you
9:02
Speaker 1: were starting out.
9:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really complex. I feel like this happens a
9:07
Speaker 2: lot because of the way that our culture thinks about
9:10
Speaker 2: work and jobs, and so, you know, when I first
9:14
Speaker 2: got into an industry, the term dream job was so
9:18
Speaker 2: popular and people would always ask this, what's your dream job,
9:21
Speaker 2: what's your dream job, what's your dream job? And I
9:24
Speaker 2: think that adding that element of like fantasy into like
9:29
Speaker 2: what work is was really detrimental ultimately, because it made
9:35
Speaker 2: me feel like, oh my gosh, I can't ever complain
9:37
Speaker 2: about this. I asked for this number one. Number two.
9:39
Speaker 2: I'm lucky to be here because so many people would
9:42
Speaker 2: step over my I was talking to my friend who
9:45
Speaker 2: just took another job and she was like, people are
9:48
Speaker 2: stepping over my warm body to get the old one
9:51
Speaker 2: left behind. I'm like, yep, So I think the thing
9:55
Speaker 2: that would surprise me the most is that how much
9:59
Speaker 2: I would base my identity on like what I was doing,
10:03
Speaker 2: even unintentionally. I really didn't expect that it almost happened
10:08
Speaker 2: without me even noticing. So then once it's all taken away,
10:13
Speaker 2: you're like, who am I? What do I do? And
10:15
Speaker 2: that's really really scary.
10:18
Speaker 1: I think I'm drawn to your work because one, you
10:21
Speaker 1: have a great eye, but more imperatively, in my eyes,
10:26
Speaker 1: you live at the intersection of fashion and beauty and
10:29
Speaker 1: also race and gender. Was that always the lens through
10:33
Speaker 1: which you saw things?
10:35
Speaker 2: I think it was cultivated later. I went to all girls' school,
10:40
Speaker 2: which I think really helped me develop my sense of
10:45
Speaker 2: feminism and what it meant, because I always felt that
10:51
Speaker 2: I had to prove something about myself or prove that,
10:55
Speaker 2: like girls, interests were worth paying attention to. So I
11:01
Speaker 2: think that the fashion and beauty, because they primarily serve
11:05
Speaker 2: a female audience, is almost always discounted. It's almost always
11:08
Speaker 2: thought of as like, oh, that's kind of stupid. And
11:12
Speaker 2: I always wanted to prove that there was intellectual or
11:15
Speaker 2: academic value in fashion and beauty, and so I think
11:20
Speaker 2: that was something that I took on very early in
11:23
Speaker 2: my career. I think the racial piece came later because
11:27
Speaker 2: I think naively I assumed that part of the reason
11:31
Speaker 2: why I was not seeing people who looked like me
11:36
Speaker 2: was that, oh, it was like they just don't know, right,
11:38
Speaker 2: They simply just don't know who these individuals are. So
11:41
Speaker 2: if I helped show them, this will change. And of
11:45
Speaker 2: course that was not the case. The reason was white supremacy,
11:50
Speaker 2: but that was not something that was like apparent to
11:53
Speaker 2: me very early.
11:56
Speaker 1: Is that what led to your exhaustion working for these
12:01
Speaker 1: big brands?
12:02
Speaker 2: You know? I think there's many factors. There are certainly
12:07
Speaker 2: like material factors that I think led to exhaustion. So
12:11
Speaker 2: I think something that people don't know about how media
12:15
Speaker 2: has transformed in the last decade makes it really hard
12:19
Speaker 2: to want to work at that pace. For example, when
12:23
Speaker 2: I was an intern in like two thousand and seven,
12:28
Speaker 2: we would get black cars and we would go to
12:31
Speaker 2: Fifth Avenue and run on all of our pickups, and
12:34
Speaker 2: there would be messengers and there would be car services
12:38
Speaker 2: home and all that stuff. And then by the time
12:41
Speaker 2: I was an editor at in Style in twenty fifteen,
12:44
Speaker 2: they were saying, you can't take ubers to your appointments.
12:49
Speaker 2: You have to take the subway, and some days I
12:52
Speaker 2: would have twelve appointments in a row, right, And so
12:55
Speaker 2: it's like you're adding a physical element in addition to
12:59
Speaker 2: like there's a personal element to working in fashion, because
13:02
Speaker 2: when I say appointments, I mean that I'm going to
13:05
Speaker 2: look at the new merchandise that a designer is going
13:07
Speaker 2: to put on the market. So sometimes I'll see the designer,
13:10
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll see their PR representatives, and you have to
13:13
Speaker 2: like talk to people. Then you have to next one
13:17
Speaker 2: and look good. It was so much pressure, so so
13:19
Speaker 2: many things started getting taken away, Salaries started getting lower
13:23
Speaker 2: and lower, and the job, the actual requirements of the
13:27
Speaker 2: job started growing. Whereas before when I was an intern,
13:31
Speaker 2: it would be like there was someone who was a
13:32
Speaker 2: fine jewelry editor, then there was someone who was an
13:35
Speaker 2: accessories editor. There's there and like then there was breakdowns
13:39
Speaker 2: within that there's an accessories editor that just does bags
13:42
Speaker 2: and one that just does shoes, and then they give
13:45
Speaker 2: the assistant posary and lingerie right, and all of a sudden,
13:52
Speaker 2: maybe like ten years later, it's like, oh, you do
13:56
Speaker 2: fashion and beauty, you have to be an expert in both. Yeah,
14:00
Speaker 2: you have to do social media, and you also have
14:03
Speaker 2: to post things and be available on weekends and do
14:07
Speaker 2: red carpet events and ten polls, and it's like what
14:11
Speaker 2: and the salary is not growing. So of course there
14:15
Speaker 2: is like an emotional exhaustion that goes into just like
14:19
Speaker 2: spending time worrying about other people's lives all the time.
14:22
Speaker 2: I'm like living on the edge hoping Beyonce doesn't do
14:25
Speaker 2: anything in the middle of the night. But there's also
14:28
Speaker 2: like I'm working so much, I'm taking on so many jobs,
14:31
Speaker 2: I'm not getting paid, and they're taking away all of
14:33
Speaker 2: the so called perks that made this worth it, and
14:36
Speaker 2: that is really what led to the exhaustion.
14:39
Speaker 1: I really admire you speaking out about it. I don't
14:43
Speaker 1: hear a lot of people doing it.
14:45
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to go back. I'm only trying to
14:48
Speaker 2: go forward always. But I also think, and this is
14:51
Speaker 2: something I learned in writing this book, that you can
14:54
Speaker 2: be institutionalized in many ways. And I think that most
14:57
Speaker 2: people assume that you can only be institutionalized if you're prison.
15:01
Speaker 2: That's not true. You can be institutionalized by any institution,
15:04
Speaker 2: and legacy media brands are very powerful institutions, and so
15:08
Speaker 2: people just don't want to say anything that challenges that,
15:14
Speaker 2: because criticizing them does not usually lead to a good outcome.
15:19
Speaker 2: And for me, I just would hope that like someone
15:24
Speaker 2: can hear this and say, maybe I'm going to rethink
15:26
Speaker 2: this because everyone's making it look so glamorous. And that
15:29
Speaker 2: was always something that like sat on my heart that
15:32
Speaker 2: I felt so guilty about. I was basically lying, you know,
15:37
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is so fabulous, this is so amazing.
15:40
Speaker 2: That friend who recently took a new job, I remember
15:42
Speaker 2: like years ago she had gone to Coachella with a
15:45
Speaker 2: denim brand and they made people share beds. How crazy
15:52
Speaker 2: is that? But like, then your job is to like
15:54
Speaker 2: externally make it look so fun and so glamorous and
15:57
Speaker 2: like you're living this luxurious life, and I'm like, what
16:00
Speaker 2: I would rather do is just make enough money pay
16:02
Speaker 2: for my own hotel if I want to go to Coachella,
16:06
Speaker 2: pay for my own ticket right and out there, Like
16:08
Speaker 2: it's just not worth it to live uncomfortable, and then
16:12
Speaker 2: to also, on top of that before to like project
16:15
Speaker 2: this image that isn't true.
16:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you wrote a book called Token Black Girl.
16:23
Speaker 1: Before we dive in because we're doing this interview six
16:27
Speaker 1: months postwriting the book, how do you feel now? Because
16:30
Speaker 1: I talk to a lot of authors and they say
16:33
Speaker 1: it's a whirlwind when you launch. You almost can't even
16:37
Speaker 1: be in the moment because it's just so much work.
16:39
Speaker 1: It's like a political campaign to launch a book. But
16:41
Speaker 1: six months in, how do you feel?
16:43
Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy because being in the digital space
16:47
Speaker 2: for so long, I'm used to writing something and almost
16:51
Speaker 2: immediately publishing it, right, So this book, I sold it
16:57
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty and it didn't come out till twenty twenty,
17:00
Speaker 2: and that's really typical of publishing. And so like, learning
17:05
Speaker 2: to be on that timeline was super weird to me
17:08
Speaker 2: because all I wanted was for people to read it,
17:11
Speaker 2: and I wanted to stop talking about it because I'm like,
17:12
Speaker 2: I'm really, I'm in my mind already onto the next thing,
17:16
Speaker 2: which I still can't talk about because it's not done yet.
17:19
Speaker 2: It's going such a weird space to be in. Yeah,
17:23
Speaker 2: but the best part has been people being able to
17:27
Speaker 2: get it in their hands, how they respond to it,
17:30
Speaker 2: the conversations that it started, the community that it's built
17:34
Speaker 2: for me because I knew that it would. But of course,
17:39
Speaker 2: like you have nerves about it, like are people going
17:41
Speaker 2: to buy it? Are people going to show up to events?
17:44
Speaker 2: Like is this really like the right thing to do?
17:47
Speaker 2: And it was so worth it, And so six months
17:50
Speaker 2: out I definitely feel like relieved, Like I think that
17:55
Speaker 2: this is a book that had to come out so
17:57
Speaker 2: that I could write the other things that I want
18:00
Speaker 2: to write.
18:00
Speaker 1: I also haven't read a book from this perspective. You say,
18:06
Speaker 1: Token Black Girl is about unlearning messages from the media
18:09
Speaker 1: and reprogramming yourself to be the woman you wanted to
18:12
Speaker 1: be and not the woman that everyone else wanted you
18:15
Speaker 1: to be. So you grew up in Westchester, New York,
18:18
Speaker 1: which is a pretty well to do neighborhood, and you
18:23
Speaker 1: were the only or one of the only And I'm
18:27
Speaker 1: curious as to who the woman everyone wanted to be
18:31
Speaker 1: was back then? Can you describe her?
18:34
Speaker 2: Sure? I mean I am thirty four now, so true
18:38
Speaker 2: millennial came of age like when the millennium shifted, and
18:41
Speaker 2: I would say that there were certain archetypes of like
18:48
Speaker 2: cool girls. I think the Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Nicole
18:54
Speaker 2: Ritchie type like represented like one element of that.
19:00
Speaker 1: I like, at nauseum talk about that on this podcast
19:04
Speaker 1: because those women plagued my life. Like at one point
19:07
Speaker 1: I was supposed to interview Paris Hilton, and I was like,
19:09
Speaker 1: I don't know if I could do that interview without
19:11
Speaker 1: getting things off my chest first. Yeah, so it must
19:15
Speaker 1: have been ten times worse.
19:16
Speaker 2: For you, you know. But it's like it was so weird.
19:19
Speaker 2: Like at the time I didn't even think about it.
19:24
Speaker 2: My sister and I loved The Simple Life. We watch it.
19:27
Speaker 2: We were like, it's so funny. They're just like us,
19:30
Speaker 2: Like this is how we act, so like, you know,
19:33
Speaker 2: and truly I live in Louisiana now sometimes when I
19:37
Speaker 2: do stuff, I'm like, am I living the Simple Life?
19:40
Speaker 2: Like when I go places, I'm like, is this really happening?
19:44
Speaker 2: And so it was so like emblematic of that time period.
19:48
Speaker 2: And I also think things like reality TV shows like
19:53
Speaker 2: The Hills or Laguna Beach also dictated like what youth
19:58
Speaker 2: culture was and beauty. And then I think transitioning to
20:05
Speaker 2: like mass was like The Bachelor started in two thousand
20:09
Speaker 2: and two. The Bachelor is like pretty like dedicated to
20:14
Speaker 2: white supremacy, ableism, you know, agism, sizes of all of
20:20
Speaker 2: those the patriarchy. Yeah, and so like watching that like
20:26
Speaker 2: put a choke hold on how we think about who
20:29
Speaker 2: can find love and like who can pursue love. I
20:32
Speaker 2: think it was really difficult when you're developing and you
20:36
Speaker 2: don't fit any of that.
20:39
Speaker 1: So when you look back, because I'm thirty two, so
20:42
Speaker 1: we grew up around the same time, when you look
20:45
Speaker 1: back on pop culture as you were coming of age,
20:48
Speaker 1: who are the token black girls that come to mind?
20:51
Speaker 1: And how did they represent what tokenism is.
20:55
Speaker 2: Gabrielle Union was definitely one, and Beyonce I would say, like,
21:05
Speaker 2: it's hard to because there are shows and then there
21:09
Speaker 2: are like the actresses on the shows. And so even
21:13
Speaker 2: though like a show like The Fresh Prince of bel
21:15
Speaker 2: Air is a black show, I would still argue that
21:19
Speaker 2: many of the characters, both ant Vivs Hilary Ashley, were
21:24
Speaker 2: all emblematic of token black girls because if you think
21:27
Speaker 2: about the world that they inhabited, they were tokenized within it,
21:31
Speaker 2: even though the show focused on a black family. And
21:35
Speaker 2: so I would say that the token black girls that
21:39
Speaker 2: we were popular during that time were all beautiful, all thinn,
21:46
Speaker 2: all well spoken, all had moderate or excessive access to capital,
21:54
Speaker 2: which is important and educated to a certain level, spoke
22:00
Speaker 2: a certain way, and we're able to navigate being in
22:06
Speaker 2: black spaces and white spaces and expected to be in
22:10
Speaker 2: both black and white spaces seamlessly.
22:13
Speaker 1: Seamlessly is the keyword. It feels like so much pressure. Yeah,
22:17
Speaker 1: when was the first time that you remember feeling tokenized.
22:21
Speaker 2: I think that if it happens to you when you're young,
22:25
Speaker 2: you don't really understand. So I wrote write this in
22:31
Speaker 2: the book, like I have been photographed and featured on
22:35
Speaker 2: every brochure or like the website of every school I've
22:39
Speaker 2: ever attended, and so I'm thinking, Wow, I'm just so photogenic,
22:44
Speaker 2: Like this is why everyone wants to take my picture.
22:46
Speaker 2: But then as I got older and it started happening
22:50
Speaker 2: more frequently and with higher stakes, I was like, Oh,
22:56
Speaker 2: that's what's happening. They're trying to buffer kind of this
23:00
Speaker 2: accusation that this organization might be racist by saying, look
23:04
Speaker 2: look at this shiny example of a girl we have
23:06
Speaker 2: that fits in with everybody, and she looks great, and
23:09
Speaker 2: that's what we value so long as I don't make
23:12
Speaker 2: any trouble.
23:13
Speaker 1: One of the things I found interesting in your book,
23:16
Speaker 1: and you talk about it early on, is that race
23:18
Speaker 1: wasn't something that was talked about in your house. So
23:22
Speaker 1: how did you get in touch with your roots after
23:24
Speaker 1: you started having these realizations?
23:26
Speaker 2: So I think that this is like a difficult piece
23:30
Speaker 2: for people to understand. The thing that I'll try to
23:33
Speaker 2: emphasize that I was a very willful child. So even
23:38
Speaker 2: if my parents wanted to have these discussions with me,
23:41
Speaker 2: like they did the best they could. They were only
23:45
Speaker 2: allowed to have black dolls in our house. We obviously
23:48
Speaker 2: listen to black music, We watched all of the black shows.
23:53
Speaker 2: So it wasn't so much that like this kind of
23:57
Speaker 2: celebration of like our culture or blackness wasn't happening within
24:01
Speaker 2: our household. It was that I was that like the
24:06
Speaker 2: places where I spent the most time in my life.
24:09
Speaker 2: It was not like a continuous thing.
24:11
Speaker 1: So it's almost every kid is like that, right, Yeah,
24:15
Speaker 1: like whatever friend group you're in, Like if my friends
24:17
Speaker 1: loved the Cubs, I just wanted to love the Cubs,
24:20
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't know if I cared, Yeah exactly.
24:24
Speaker 1: It makes total sense.
24:26
Speaker 2: So I'm like trying to do all of this stuff
24:30
Speaker 2: at home. And that's why it's very lucky that I
24:32
Speaker 2: have a sister to be able to like navigate this
24:36
Speaker 2: with so we would have like our like private life,
24:39
Speaker 2: and then you know, go to a school or go
24:43
Speaker 2: to a sport, or go to a dance class where
24:46
Speaker 2: that necessarily wasn't reinforced, so you kind of just like
24:49
Speaker 2: have to sever yourself. We have a huge extended family.
24:53
Speaker 2: We would always have cookouts, like we would all be together.
24:56
Speaker 2: So like, I have been a around a lot of
25:00
Speaker 2: black people, but not necessarily peers, like not necessarily people
25:05
Speaker 2: my age, like my friends, people I saw and spent
25:07
Speaker 2: the most time with. We're almost all white.
25:11
Speaker 1: Looking back. How do you feel about thirteen year old?
25:16
Speaker 1: You talk about like having a crush on a boy
25:20
Speaker 1: for the first time, and that was actually like really
25:23
Speaker 1: hard for me to read. I felt so sad for
25:26
Speaker 1: young you. Do you feel sad for young you still?
25:29
Speaker 1: Or have you done the work to be okay?
25:33
Speaker 2: I do? And I think that for a long time,
25:36
Speaker 2: I like wouldn't acknowledge anything that happened to me because
25:41
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't have capital T trauma, so
25:44
Speaker 2: I don't have the right right feel upset about anything.
25:49
Speaker 2: You know, people would be like, you're so lucky, You're
25:51
Speaker 2: so lucky. You go to this school. You're so lucky,
25:53
Speaker 2: you have this family, You're so lucky, you can ride horses,
25:57
Speaker 2: You're so lucky, all of these things. And so I
25:59
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I am so lucky. So I don't
26:02
Speaker 2: get to feel anything sad or bad ever, So first
26:06
Speaker 2: I had to allow myself permission to be like, Okay,
26:10
Speaker 2: even if you weren't in physical danger, even if you
26:14
Speaker 2: know you weren't abused, like things happened to you that
26:18
Speaker 2: are still traumatic and that can have like ripple and
26:20
Speaker 2: long lasting effects. And so yeah, one of them was like,
26:24
Speaker 2: how I had self confidence. And I don't know that
26:28
Speaker 2: a lot of people think about this when it comes
26:32
Speaker 2: to children integrating in a lot of spaces, because when
26:38
Speaker 2: children are very young, it truly doesn't matter. Like you
26:41
Speaker 2: can you can see there was that viral video where
26:46
Speaker 2: that like little black boy and little white bear like
26:48
Speaker 2: running toward each other and they're like two or three
26:51
Speaker 2: and they hug each other, and I'm like, Okay, catch
26:53
Speaker 2: up with them when they're seventeen, seriously, yeah, and then
26:56
Speaker 2: get again when they're twenty five. Because things change simply
27:02
Speaker 2: because of the pressures of the outside world, and that
27:05
Speaker 2: is not something that like parents can control and sometimes
27:10
Speaker 2: kids self segregate to make sure that they feel the
27:14
Speaker 2: safest they can. But I didn't have an option to
27:17
Speaker 2: self segregate because there were no other black children that
27:22
Speaker 2: could do that with me. And so yeah, when things
27:25
Speaker 2: like crushes come up, things like going to dances come up,
27:29
Speaker 2: things where like you were like required to like make
27:32
Speaker 2: all of these moves towards like adolescents and adulthood right
27:37
Speaker 2: lagging behind.
27:38
Speaker 1: I mean I talk about like trying to fix your
27:41
Speaker 1: hair in a certain way that looked like your friends
27:43
Speaker 1: and you had different hair, and it's it just must
27:46
Speaker 1: have been so difficult to not be around any Like
27:51
Speaker 1: this is a lame comparison, but I remember the first
27:54
Speaker 1: time that I had a female co anchor with me
27:57
Speaker 1: on a desk and I didn't know I was missing it,
28:02
Speaker 1: And then as soon as we were together, I was like,
28:04
Speaker 1: oh my god, she validates everything I'm feeling. And I
28:07
Speaker 1: think she felt the same way and you didn't. I mean,
28:11
Speaker 1: you had your sister, but you were under the same roof,
28:12
Speaker 1: so it's different. Like that is really hard to not
28:16
Speaker 1: have that at all.
28:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we didn't really have internet like we do.
28:21
Speaker 2: I feel very encouraged that the kids have tiktoks, they
28:25
Speaker 2: can learn vocabulary, they can watch videos of people doing
28:30
Speaker 2: their makeup, doing their hair with their exact skin, skin shade,
28:34
Speaker 2: and their exact texture, Like you're able to like find
28:37
Speaker 2: these things. But I felt really really lost because I
28:41
Speaker 2: was like, I don't know where to go. I don't
28:44
Speaker 2: know where to look. I don't know how to find them.
28:46
Speaker 1: Speaking of media, is there anything you see in media
28:48
Speaker 1: now that you think would have changed your view of
28:50
Speaker 1: yourself when you were a kid.
28:53
Speaker 2: Oh? No, media still really talks, I think Unfortunately now
28:59
Speaker 2: I can kind of interpret, like what is authentic messaging
29:05
Speaker 2: and what is like simply marketing. But I don't think
29:08
Speaker 2: I would have been able to as a child, So
29:12
Speaker 2: I don't know that it would have been any better. Necessarily,
29:17
Speaker 2: there are certain things that are better. But when you
29:20
Speaker 2: still like look at red carpets, and when you still
29:23
Speaker 2: look at like who is the most followed on social
29:27
Speaker 2: media platforms, like, it doesn't look very much different than
29:29
Speaker 2: when we were growing up.
29:30
Speaker 1: You talk about Candice Owens growing up near you. I
29:35
Speaker 1: think you said thirty minutes from where you grew up,
29:38
Speaker 1: And you said you almost can feel her. What did
29:41
Speaker 1: the word exact word you use? Was it sympathized with her?
29:44
Speaker 1: Like you felt bad for her? Which I think so
29:47
Speaker 1: many people could take different ways. I knew what you meant.
29:50
Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on that?
29:53
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think that one thing that we collectively
30:00
Speaker 2: kind of falls short of doing as people is recognizing
30:07
Speaker 2: how someone's environment shapes them and like just how much
30:12
Speaker 2: self hatred or self criticism or low self confidence and
30:17
Speaker 2: manifest in like plenty of different ways, and then we
30:20
Speaker 2: demonize them for that. Like, if someone feels bad about themselves, like,
30:26
Speaker 2: what I hope that they do is not spread it around.
30:33
Speaker 2: Of course that's usually impossible. And as someone who felt
30:37
Speaker 2: bad about themselves and who was at the helm of
30:39
Speaker 2: like several major publications, I know that I felt bad
30:43
Speaker 2: and several of my coworkers felt bad too, and none
30:45
Speaker 2: of it stopped us from publishing headlines and making stories
30:50
Speaker 2: and putting up things on Instagram all day long. But
30:53
Speaker 2: not everyone gets the same opportunity to grow and change.
30:58
Speaker 2: I think it's possible for people to change and do
31:00
Speaker 2: the work that I do. If I didn't think that
31:02
Speaker 2: was possible, I feel really bad that she is almost
31:07
Speaker 2: stuck and I'm like, wow, could that have happened to me?
31:11
Speaker 2: Like it's funny, Like when I think about like the
31:14
Speaker 2: beliefs that I held when I was in high school,
31:19
Speaker 2: lest in college, but definitely in high school. It was
31:21
Speaker 2: a bush era time. I went to high school in Greenwich, Connecticut.
31:26
Speaker 2: Almost everyone I knew was conservative and wealthy, right, and
31:30
Speaker 2: so like concerned about like keeping that keeping other people out,
31:35
Speaker 2: Like it was very sick, but again because like that's
31:40
Speaker 2: the community you're in. Like I was like, this is
31:43
Speaker 2: normal and everyone else is wrong, you know.
31:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you're like probably at your friend's houses for
31:49
Speaker 1: dinner with their parents and they're talking about things and
31:52
Speaker 1: you're it's different than the conversations you're having at your parents' table,
31:56
Speaker 1: but you don't say anything. You're a kid. Mm hm,
32:00
Speaker 1: I'm jumping around, But I want to know the straw
32:02
Speaker 1: that broke the camel's back for you. In terms of
32:05
Speaker 1: quitting your job at BT.
32:07
Speaker 2: Oh, as things do, like in corporate America, like you
32:14
Speaker 2: get new leadership, and so we had gotten new leadership
32:18
Speaker 2: at BT. And I remember that they had conceptualized a
32:24
Speaker 2: show where a digital show where I would have to
32:28
Speaker 2: be the host. I would have to appear on camera.
32:32
Speaker 2: They did not ask me, they did not offer me
32:34
Speaker 2: any more money. They were like, this will be three
32:36
Speaker 2: days a week. This will be another job requirement for you.
32:41
Speaker 2: And privately, like outside of work, I had been working
32:46
Speaker 2: on with my therapist on like fixing my eating disorder,
32:49
Speaker 2: and one of the things that I was like, I
32:53
Speaker 2: feel a lot of pressure to remain thin because I
32:56
Speaker 2: always have to be photographer. I always have to be
32:58
Speaker 2: on camera. And she's like, can you stop doing that?
33:00
Speaker 2: And I was like I think so. So that was
33:02
Speaker 2: a kind of one thing that we were like working towards.
33:05
Speaker 2: And so I had told my big boss at like
33:08
Speaker 2: the VP, and I was like, look, I appreciate this opportunity,
33:13
Speaker 2: but just so you know, this is what I'm working on.
33:16
Speaker 2: And her kind of response to it was like, I
33:21
Speaker 2: need you to like put on your big girl pants,
33:23
Speaker 2: like this is when bosses are made. And I was
33:25
Speaker 2: just like, okay, I don't want to be a boss,
33:28
Speaker 2: Like if I had to tell somebody this like in
33:30
Speaker 2: ten years, like I don't want to do this, And
33:32
Speaker 2: so I think maybe like the next two days, I
33:35
Speaker 2: took a medical leaf of absence from work and I
33:38
Speaker 2: had already been thinking that something that I wanted to do,
33:41
Speaker 2: but I was like, I think that, like it's time.
33:44
Speaker 2: And they also treated me so badly when I was
33:46
Speaker 2: on that medical leave of absence, which was like for
33:48
Speaker 2: mental health, and they tried to like make me come
33:52
Speaker 2: back to work early, tried to not pay me that time.
33:55
Speaker 2: And I've been working at this company for four and
33:57
Speaker 2: a half years, like on weekends on holiday is like
34:00
Speaker 2: no matter what. And I just like was like, this
34:03
Speaker 2: is not worth it, Like they literally don't care about you.
34:06
Speaker 2: They're showing you how much they don't care about you.
34:08
Speaker 2: And I was also profoundly disturbed because I had staff
34:12
Speaker 2: from me that they would routinely just fire. They're like,
34:17
Speaker 2: we're doing budget cuts. And so I started out with
34:21
Speaker 2: like seven people reporting to me and by the end
34:23
Speaker 2: I had like three. And the requirements of how much
34:26
Speaker 2: we had to produce never changed. It was like twenty
34:30
Speaker 2: plus stories a day just from my vertical. It was
34:33
Speaker 2: just exhausting and not affirming, and I was like, I
34:38
Speaker 2: don't want to do this anymore. It was so hard.
34:42
Speaker 1: You made a lot of life changes. You moved from
34:45
Speaker 1: New York to New Orleans during the pandemic, You quit
34:49
Speaker 1: your jobs. Why did you feel like New York was
34:52
Speaker 1: not working for you?
34:54
Speaker 2: Okay, So now that I'm like outside of the city,
34:59
Speaker 2: I can kind of see it a little bit clearer.
35:02
Speaker 2: I think something that was connected to my eating disorder
35:05
Speaker 2: was my like, I'm a workaholic, but I didn't realize
35:10
Speaker 2: that because in New York everyone else is also a workaholic.
35:14
Speaker 1: What are the signs of a workaholic? Like, what does
35:17
Speaker 1: that mean?
35:18
Speaker 2: Basically, if you have ever observed addict behavior over anything, like,
35:23
Speaker 2: it's a lot of like if you try to take
35:27
Speaker 2: away what someone is addicted to, they will do everything.
35:31
Speaker 2: They'll bargain, they'll make excuses, they'll lie, they will steal,
35:37
Speaker 2: they'll do anything to get to like what they want.
35:41
Speaker 2: And that is the way I behave with work, Like
35:44
Speaker 2: it's beyond. So someone will be like you should rest,
35:49
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh no, I don't need rest, or
35:52
Speaker 2: maybe I will later, or you know, like fully knowing
35:55
Speaker 2: I won't. I'm gonna do like four things and then
35:59
Speaker 2: I'll rest. It's never prioritized for me enough, or I'm like, okay,
36:05
Speaker 2: I can do this. But because when I was in
36:07
Speaker 2: New York, everyone else kind of lives like that, and
36:11
Speaker 2: also because New York is so expensive, So I never
36:14
Speaker 2: thought that I could stop working because if I don't,
36:16
Speaker 2: if I stop working, like I won't be able to
36:19
Speaker 2: get a slightly bigger apartment and I won't be able
36:23
Speaker 2: to go on a vacation. I can't take a vacation
36:25
Speaker 2: if I don't have any money. I still have to
36:26
Speaker 2: pay my rent even if I go away. So it's
36:30
Speaker 2: just like it, you know, you never stop. So I
36:34
Speaker 2: was like, I have to move. And I also really
36:37
Speaker 2: the pandemic. I found it really difficult to not be
36:40
Speaker 2: able to go outside, to not be able to walk around,
36:43
Speaker 2: and so I wanted to move somewhere warmer, and that's
36:46
Speaker 2: when I ended up in New Orleans.
36:48
Speaker 1: Are you happy? Was it the right move?
36:51
Speaker 2: Most days? I'm happy. But that's actually what helped to
36:54
Speaker 2: like illuminate that I was like such a workaholic because
36:58
Speaker 2: here the work culture is totally different. Yeah, I look
37:04
Speaker 2: crazy to everybody. I Yeah. When I first moved her,
37:07
Speaker 2: I had like seven jobs. I was I was hosting
37:10
Speaker 2: a podcast, I was writing the book. I have my
37:13
Speaker 2: company with Chrissy. I work for a skincare startup, doing
37:16
Speaker 2: like all of their communications, and I like work on Instagram.
37:21
Speaker 2: So I was like doing so much all the time.
37:24
Speaker 2: I never was stopping and yeah, people were like are
37:27
Speaker 2: you good? And I'm like, are you guys good?
37:30
Speaker 1: You don't do anything, and like, well, I know, cause
37:35
Speaker 1: you're really funny about your dating life on social media
37:38
Speaker 1: and I know that one of the things you talk
37:39
Speaker 1: about is like you're like, how am I going to
37:41
Speaker 1: find a man that is like me in New Orleans?
37:45
Speaker 1: Because we're just so different, Like no one wants to
37:47
Speaker 1: ride horses with me, no one wants to go to
37:49
Speaker 1: fancy restaurants. Anybody out here is listening and knows a
37:53
Speaker 1: hot man in New Orleans for Danielle, please set her up?
37:56
Speaker 2: Yes, please let me know. And I found like some
37:59
Speaker 2: like sometimes I can like find some to connect with people.
38:02
Speaker 2: I think it's that you have to be a transplant
38:05
Speaker 2: like me, Like you can't really be natively from here
38:07
Speaker 2: because I just don't vibe with it, Like it's just
38:11
Speaker 2: not my frequency.
38:13
Speaker 1: So you mentioned the company that you started with Chrissy,
38:16
Speaker 1: it's B to G Consulting or to BEG sorry, consulting
38:19
Speaker 1: two Black girls. So you work with fashion, beauty and
38:24
Speaker 1: entertainment brands to help them become anti racist.
38:28
Speaker 2: Yes, influencers as well.
38:30
Speaker 1: Influencers too, Yeah, so what is your process?
38:34
Speaker 2: Like? So, we have like a few different ways that
38:37
Speaker 2: we can work with companies. Our most popular way is
38:40
Speaker 2: to do an anti racism seminar and so it's a
38:44
Speaker 2: two hour seminar where we kind of teach about the
38:47
Speaker 2: ways that white supremacy is at work in fashion and
38:50
Speaker 2: beauty and like how you can be more anti racist
38:54
Speaker 2: and how you approach doing everything going forward in your business.
38:59
Speaker 2: I think what a lot of people don't understand is
39:01
Speaker 2: that when white people found companies, they are usually directly
39:08
Speaker 2: speaking to and wanting to engage with people like them,
39:12
Speaker 2: like and that is just implied. But then what happens
39:16
Speaker 2: over time is that you create your audience. So if
39:20
Speaker 2: that's who you were speaking to, that's who is going
39:22
Speaker 2: to be there. So often companies will say, well, of
39:25
Speaker 2: course we want to post people of other races, but
39:28
Speaker 2: her engagement's just so low when we do that, and
39:31
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, because that's white supremacy at work. That's
39:34
Speaker 2: the audience you created, that's people you catered to. You're
39:38
Speaker 2: going to have to reteach them now. And so many
39:40
Speaker 2: people don't want to do that on the back end,
39:42
Speaker 2: because it's scary. Like as an entrepreneur, I know, like
39:45
Speaker 2: I don't want to like risk not making money, or
39:49
Speaker 2: risk not getting a sale, or risk something. Then don't
39:53
Speaker 2: say that you're interested in inclusion because you're not. You know,
39:57
Speaker 2: like just decide, I would rather you be on it
40:00
Speaker 2: about what you were doing and where you were willing
40:02
Speaker 2: to do the work, rather than be fake about it,
40:06
Speaker 2: you know, put up a black square and say you're
40:07
Speaker 2: listening and learning and then not change anything about your behavior.
40:12
Speaker 1: I'm really really curious to hear your perspective were April
40:19
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three as we're recording this, Yeah, where
40:24
Speaker 1: do you feel like everything stands now? I've been disappointed.
40:32
Speaker 2: It is worse. It is worse than it was in
40:35
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, even like things.
40:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you say that?
40:41
Speaker 2: Because now brands know better, Like there was no way
40:46
Speaker 2: you were not a person who engages with the internet
40:53
Speaker 2: and did not get affected by George Floyd's murder and
40:57
Speaker 2: everything that happened after that, And so they now know
41:01
Speaker 2: no better and just like refuse to do anything differently.
41:04
Speaker 2: And that's what's like really scary. There are certain brands
41:08
Speaker 2: who I think did learn and change in some former
41:11
Speaker 2: clients of ours. Revolve I think did a much better
41:16
Speaker 2: job about being inclusive. Reformation I think does a much
41:20
Speaker 2: better job of thinking about inclusivity across the board. But
41:26
Speaker 2: there were several different activations and I was like, wow,
41:30
Speaker 2: look how bad this is. And now that I live
41:32
Speaker 2: in New Orleans, I am always really curious to see
41:35
Speaker 2: who will spend millions of dollars millions of dollars to
41:39
Speaker 2: go to Coachella and who doesn't come to Essence Fest,
41:43
Speaker 2: which is also a massive music festival, is also three days,
41:49
Speaker 2: but it is geared towards black women, and I really
41:52
Speaker 2: am very aware of where people are putting their attention
41:57
Speaker 2: and dollars.
41:58
Speaker 1: Do you feel optimistic? Do you think things can change?
42:06
Speaker 2: I think if we look at the long arm of history,
42:11
Speaker 2: like in some ways things are like better, So things
42:14
Speaker 2: are better for me than they might have been for
42:16
Speaker 2: my grandparents, and things are better for my grandparents and
42:18
Speaker 2: they might have been for their grandparents. But after releasing
42:23
Speaker 2: my book and speaking with women who were ten twenty
42:26
Speaker 2: years older than me also feeling the same things, and
42:29
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, like the exact same, like not just
42:33
Speaker 2: like oh, like something similar kind of happened to me,
42:36
Speaker 2: you know, like the exact same thing, the exact same
42:39
Speaker 2: conversations are happening, and like that is kind of scary,
42:43
Speaker 2: and that is what we should be working to fix,
42:48
Speaker 2: especially because in fashion and beauty, I think that so
42:52
Speaker 2: often the assumption is that like, oh, like we don't
42:54
Speaker 2: want to get political, Like we don't affect the criminal
42:57
Speaker 2: justice system, we don't affect policy, we don't affect housing,
43:01
Speaker 2: we don't affect education, And it's like, true, you don't,
43:05
Speaker 2: but you do affect who has access to power. Because
43:10
Speaker 2: beauty is power, and that's funny. Yes, I think if
43:14
Speaker 2: people miss it, like all the time, I'm like, why
43:17
Speaker 2: do you think people want to be beautiful? It's like
43:21
Speaker 2: they want to be beautiful because there is a power
43:23
Speaker 2: associated with it that is also political, and so you
43:28
Speaker 2: have to be able to engage with that and know that,
43:31
Speaker 2: like you're making these decisions and it either empowers or
43:36
Speaker 2: disempowers people.
43:37
Speaker 1: It's one of the pillars of this podcast because there's
43:42
Speaker 1: a book called Beauty Sick.
43:44
Speaker 2: I know, I read it, love it.
43:46
Speaker 1: It's a great book. But I try and interview women
43:48
Speaker 1: that are pretty bold, pretty witty, pretty strong, pretty smart,
43:51
Speaker 1: because I think if we can undercut and change what
43:56
Speaker 1: we think is pretty, that's at the root of so
43:59
Speaker 1: much of this. What is the piece of guidance that
44:02
Speaker 1: you're sick of giving?
44:03
Speaker 2: You know, I'm really sick of begging people to care
44:07
Speaker 2: when I'm like, it's so possible. Yeah, there's so many models,
44:12
Speaker 2: there's so much information out there, and so begging people
44:17
Speaker 2: to listen and care is really really hard and that
44:21
Speaker 2: I am kind of sick of doing.
44:23
Speaker 1: How do you make people care? I've never thought about
44:26
Speaker 1: this because I've always cared. It's been a thing. It
44:30
Speaker 1: was just in my house, like we care. So if
44:34
Speaker 1: you don't care, how do you change people's minds?
44:37
Speaker 2: There's a lot of apathy, and I think there's a
44:39
Speaker 2: lot of exhaustion and because of that, there's a lot
44:42
Speaker 2: of apathy. Like I think it's a kind of like
44:44
Speaker 2: vicious cycle that happens. And what I think a good
44:50
Speaker 2: way to get people to care is to help expose
44:54
Speaker 2: them to other perspectives, which is why it's important that
44:58
Speaker 2: more stories are able to be public. Like I wrote
45:01
Speaker 2: Choken Black Girl as a memoir, but I am not
45:04
Speaker 2: the soul choken Black Girl. There are many different facets
45:08
Speaker 2: of that experience. And what I tell people is like,
45:09
Speaker 2: just because you read my book, don't feel like you
45:12
Speaker 2: understand everything. You know, you have to know that you
45:15
Speaker 2: can go and find someone else who had almost a
45:20
Speaker 2: similar life to me but turned out way different and
45:22
Speaker 2: thinks things way differently right, And that's also okay and
45:26
Speaker 2: so changing. I think who gets the power to greenlight
45:30
Speaker 2: some of these things and projects? Like that's what I
45:32
Speaker 2: really loved about, Like my job in media was like
45:35
Speaker 2: having the power to be like, yes you can do this,
45:37
Speaker 2: Yes I will give you money for this, Like yes
45:39
Speaker 2: we can publish this, because that felt great and knowing
45:45
Speaker 2: that that is part of helping to move the cultural
45:50
Speaker 2: needle in the right direction. The more like we are
45:54
Speaker 2: out there experiencing different things in different perspectives, the better
45:58
Speaker 2: we all are as people.
46:01
Speaker 1: How has writing Token Black Girl changed to.
46:04
Speaker 2: I think that writing the book made me so much
46:09
Speaker 2: more honest. You know, I had to be Oh, it's.
46:12
Speaker 1: Like you're pretty honest in the book, Like you talk
46:15
Speaker 1: about how you were mean to somebody and you write
46:17
Speaker 1: about it like you don't shy away from it.
46:19
Speaker 2: Well, I just I was like, I don't want to
46:21
Speaker 2: be one of those people who write a memoir. You
46:25
Speaker 2: can be victimized and also like inflict harm on someone
46:31
Speaker 2: like that. I think that sometimes when media packages stories,
46:38
Speaker 2: it's super binary, like you're either hero or villain. But
46:42
Speaker 2: I think everyone has the capacity to be both, and
46:45
Speaker 2: actually most interesting people are both. And like when you
46:49
Speaker 2: think about, you know, the things that we read in
46:52
Speaker 2: history books, they intentionally take out all the quote unquote
46:57
Speaker 2: bad stuff. So how shocked are you when you find
47:00
Speaker 2: that out later? Like when I like started rereading American
47:03
Speaker 2: history and I like found out like how terrible of
47:06
Speaker 2: a person George Washington was, I was.
47:08
Speaker 1: Like, right, Like, they take out that James Madison had slaves.
47:15
Speaker 2: Yes, take it all out.
47:17
Speaker 1: It's okay to read that both parts, Like, it's okay
47:20
Speaker 1: to read about all of it.
47:22
Speaker 2: It's true though, And so I didn't want to be like, Wow,
47:25
Speaker 2: I'm just an amazing person. Here's how I got here. Yeah,
47:28
Speaker 2: first of all, I'm still a work in progress. I
47:30
Speaker 2: work every day on myself, and I think that that's
47:32
Speaker 2: really important. But secondly that like, sometimes you do things
47:37
Speaker 2: and behave in ways that are like out of survival
47:39
Speaker 2: and certainly out of alignment with who you might think
47:42
Speaker 2: you are, but because you are doing that and you know,
47:45
Speaker 2: it's hard to be Like I was surviving at like
47:48
Speaker 2: prep school, but like you are, and that was like
47:51
Speaker 2: something I didn't really want to acknowledge. It was like
47:53
Speaker 2: I have no capital T trauma like the one like
47:55
Speaker 2: locked me in a locker and beat me up or anything.
47:57
Speaker 2: But I was like, no, Like we fall with psychological warfare.
48:01
Speaker 2: That was how girls fight, and that's how I learned
48:05
Speaker 2: to do everything. And so thinking about like how that
48:09
Speaker 2: affected me and made me the person I am, I
48:12
Speaker 2: think was really critical to like writing a truthful narrative
48:17
Speaker 2: about my own life.
48:19
Speaker 1: We're going to do a little rapid fire. Okay, your
48:22
Speaker 1: favorite follow on TikTok.
48:24
Speaker 2: Oh, my god, you know what I love. I'm sick.
48:27
Speaker 2: Tell me I love this doctor audiology associates. He's in
48:32
Speaker 2: the UK and he vacuums out earwax the best. It's amazing.
48:37
Speaker 1: That is sick.
48:39
Speaker 2: I know. Watch I love No.
48:42
Speaker 1: I love like all the pimple poper stuff. So it's
48:44
Speaker 1: like the pot calling the kettle black.
48:47
Speaker 2: I'm also into this guy who cleans out like absesses
48:51
Speaker 2: from cowhoves. Amazing.
48:54
Speaker 1: That's a new one for me, Okay, if you had
48:57
Speaker 1: to give up all reality TV except for one show,
49:00
Speaker 1: which one are you picked it?
49:02
Speaker 2: Oh? I know?
49:04
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know your sister's on Summerhouse, so
49:07
Speaker 1: we have to we can't pick that that's not going to.
49:10
Speaker 2: Pack your summer house. I just started watching it too,
49:12
Speaker 2: so I'm I don't even I don't care about Summerhouse.
49:14
Speaker 2: Maybe the ninety Day Fiance universe. I love n to
49:18
Speaker 2: Day Fiance.
49:19
Speaker 1: The pop culture moment from your childhood that defines you most.
49:23
Speaker 2: It has to be when Lauren didn't go to Paris.
49:28
Speaker 2: I've never seen anything so crazy in my life. Oh my,
49:31
Speaker 2: it's still that was like that will never be. I
49:34
Speaker 2: was like, bye, Jason, I'll cut you off like I
49:38
Speaker 2: will fly in the cargo long.
49:40
Speaker 1: Something that you're glad you've given up?
49:42
Speaker 2: Wow? Something? Oh alcohol for sure?
49:45
Speaker 1: When did you give up alcohol eight years ago? How
49:49
Speaker 1: does it work when you're on dates? Do you just
49:51
Speaker 1: tell people you don't drink?
49:53
Speaker 2: Yeah? Actually, like I feel like it's like now that
49:56
Speaker 2: I have been sober or I'm not. I'm not an
49:59
Speaker 2: alcohol I just don't like how alcohol makes me feel,
50:02
Speaker 2: and I just don't like drinking anymore. So I like
50:05
Speaker 2: hesitate to say that I'm sober, but I am choosing
50:09
Speaker 2: not to drink alcohol. And so I find that in
50:12
Speaker 2: the last like four or five years, a lot more
50:15
Speaker 2: people are also like on this wave, and so it's
50:19
Speaker 2: not that uncommon. Like I dated a guy here who
50:22
Speaker 2: didn't drink either, and so I've never run into him
50:25
Speaker 2: at like a bar or anything, because like he just
50:27
Speaker 2: never goes and it's not like I am probably like you,
50:33
Speaker 2: like I can talk to anybody about anything totally sober,
50:37
Speaker 2: Like I don't need it to kind of bring up
50:39
Speaker 2: my personality on this way no matter what.
50:44
Speaker 1: So all the time.
50:46
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah it doesn't, it doesn't really especially like post thirty,
50:51
Speaker 2: it doesn't really like come up as much.
50:55
Speaker 1: What's something about yourself that you're trying to work on
50:58
Speaker 1: right now?
50:59
Speaker 2: Ooh, I am trying trying to work on resting prioritizing rest,
51:03
Speaker 2: and like in therapy, I was saying to my therapist,
51:06
Speaker 2: like I assume that like the model that I had
51:09
Speaker 2: was that I just have to work work, work, work, work,
51:11
Speaker 2: and that's the only way I get things that I want,
51:13
Speaker 2: So then I get things done. So I'm working on
51:16
Speaker 2: just trusting and being like you have put in the work.
51:19
Speaker 2: Now you can kind of enjoy. You don't have to
51:21
Speaker 2: push yourself that hard anymore, because I was getting like
51:25
Speaker 2: physically sick, like really really sick, and I'm like, it's
51:28
Speaker 2: just like not worth it. I'm so lucky to be healthy,
51:31
Speaker 2: like especially like after all I've put my body through
51:34
Speaker 2: and now I'm like breaking down because I'm so stressed out.
51:38
Speaker 2: That's so silly.
51:40
Speaker 1: What's a book that you've read that changed your life,
51:43
Speaker 1: something that you think everyone should read?
51:46
Speaker 2: Educated by Tara Westover Truly, I mean blown away by
51:52
Speaker 2: that book, Like I have chills when I think about it.
51:54
Speaker 2: I'm like, I cannot believe that someone wrote that. It
51:58
Speaker 2: is so good.
51:59
Speaker 1: Actually, now that you say it, that's another way to
52:01
Speaker 1: learn to care? Is education?
52:04
Speaker 2: Oh for sure?
52:06
Speaker 1: Yeah? Because she like learned to care.
52:08
Speaker 2: Everything she learned. She had to learn everything.
52:10
Speaker 1: You learned everything.
52:15
Speaker 2: Okay.
52:15
Speaker 1: I always do a question everything card, but since we're virtual,
52:19
Speaker 1: you just have to tell me when to stop.
52:21
Speaker 2: Okay.
52:22
Speaker 1: So okay, Oh, this is such a good one for you.
52:26
Speaker 1: The single best party you've ever been to set the scene?
52:29
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Okay, I don't remember the year.
52:33
Speaker 1: But it was a I love how you know right away.
52:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it was the best party. It is a
52:40
Speaker 2: Kanye West after party, and it was in Paris, and
52:44
Speaker 2: it was so far outside of the city in Paris
52:46
Speaker 2: that I was like, are we driving to Germany? Like
52:49
Speaker 2: where are we going? And I think it was pre
52:52
Speaker 2: uber so I don't even remember. I think we had
52:54
Speaker 2: to like have a car service like take us there.
52:57
Speaker 2: So it must have been like twenty twelve, I want
53:00
Speaker 2: to say, so it was like twenty three or twenty four, right,
53:03
Speaker 2: And it was in this like warehouse, and they had
53:07
Speaker 2: like cars like racing around the bottom, and they had
53:10
Speaker 2: this mountain that the DJ was on and the music
53:16
Speaker 2: was amazing, the vibes were amazing. We were like it
53:20
Speaker 2: felt like another world and like once we went outside,
53:23
Speaker 2: I was like shocked to find it was like the
53:25
Speaker 2: next day, I.
53:26
Speaker 1: Was like, and were you with You were with your
53:29
Speaker 1: work friends? Yeah? Every celebrity must have been there.
53:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody was there. That's everybody who was in Paris
53:37
Speaker 2: that fashion week was there. It was so fun.
53:40
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the last question I ask everybody,
53:43
Speaker 1: and it's pretty open ended. So whatever comes to mind,
53:46
Speaker 1: What is the smartest decision you've ever made?
53:49
Speaker 2: To transfer out of Tufts University and in Roland Yu.
53:54
Speaker 2: It was the first time I was like I had
53:56
Speaker 2: listened to other people and I let them convince me that,
53:59
Speaker 2: like what I didn't want because I wanted to put
54:01
Speaker 2: NYU from the beginning, and everybody's like, no, it's too
54:03
Speaker 2: big of a school. We're going to feel overwhelmed. And
54:08
Speaker 2: my whole life was kind of constructed around getting into
54:12
Speaker 2: like an elite university. So I got into Tufton and like,
54:15
Speaker 2: I wanted to just relax and be happy, but I
54:17
Speaker 2: was so miserable. And it was like the beginning stages
54:20
Speaker 2: of Facebook. So I was able to like see all
54:23
Speaker 2: these albums of my friends like having fun at their
54:25
Speaker 2: respective colleges, and I was like, oh, this is supposed
54:27
Speaker 2: to be fun, because I hate this, and so it's like,
54:30
Speaker 2: how am I going to change it? And so I reapplied,
54:34
Speaker 2: I rewrote essays, I got my ESSAYT scores again, I
54:36
Speaker 2: had to get recommendations again, and I applied to en
54:39
Speaker 2: Yu and I called that school every single day to
54:42
Speaker 2: check on the status of my application, every single day,
54:44
Speaker 2: and then one day I couldn't call, and I had
54:46
Speaker 2: my mom call and said mom, you have to call them,
54:49
Speaker 2: and she called and they were like, oh, you're Danielle's mother,
54:51
Speaker 2: Like we talked to her every day. We still don't
54:53
Speaker 2: have a decision yet, but I was like so persistent
54:57
Speaker 2: because I was like, I know that this is the
55:00
Speaker 2: right thing for me to do, and everybody thought it
55:04
Speaker 2: was crazy, and I was like, I have to leave,
55:07
Speaker 2: and so I left, went and enrolled in NYU, and
55:09
Speaker 2: then I transferred schools again. Once I got into NYU,
55:13
Speaker 2: but again it had too because I didn't know that
55:17
Speaker 2: there were other options besides like a liberal arts degree.
55:20
Speaker 2: So I transferred from a liberal arts school to another
55:22
Speaker 2: liberal arts school, but they had put a cap on
55:25
Speaker 2: how many hours I could intern, and I was like, well,
55:28
Speaker 2: I'm already doing the thing I want to do. And
55:30
Speaker 2: I was so frustrated that they were like, no, you
55:32
Speaker 2: have to take this science class and this, and I
55:34
Speaker 2: was like, that's stupid. I'm already doing the thing I
55:37
Speaker 2: want to do when I leave here. So I transferred
55:39
Speaker 2: to Gallatin, which is a school of individualized studies. It
55:43
Speaker 2: could like make my own major, and I still graduated early.
55:51
Speaker 1: I want to thank the people that make the show possible.
55:54
Speaker 1: Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe and Phil speed Tech. Okay,
56:00
Speaker 1: what time it is. Today's a good day, to have
56:02
Speaker 1: a good day. I'll see you next week.
56:08
Speaker 2: H h