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Command Lessons from Three 1.3M Sq Ft Distribution Center Fires · B Shifter

• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone to the Feed Shifter Podcast.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: John's here today, along with Josh Bloom.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: We have a guest today.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Stephen Starver.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Chief Starber is with the Monroe Fire Department.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's the Assistant Chief of Operations there.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Chief, thanks for being with us today.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you here to share some of your big box experience that you've had in your community lately.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So you've had some incidents and some that really followed some best practice as far as our review.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we also want to find out if you have any lessons learned that you'd like to share with the V shifters today.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll we'll talk about all of that.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, Chief, can you set it up by telling us about your department and the community that you protect?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: City Monroe is roughly the coverage area is roughly 15, 16 square miles.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: We also cover Lemon Township, middle to upper class community, roughly 16,000 residents.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of development on our east end near I-75, where a lot of these big box buildings are popping up.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: We operate out of two stations.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Minimum staffing is 11 personnel per day.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: So five at each station plus a battalion chief.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: We do roughly 3,000 runs per year, with the majority of those being EMS, bordered by other combination and career fire departments.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: What's your uh mutual aid or auto aid look like?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: How many departments do you usually run with?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And is is auto aid or mutual aid a regular part of your response?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the interesting thing about our department was we border two counties.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the dispatch centers aren't fully integrated currently, but they're working towards that to have automated dispatching without any delays.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we have automatic aid, mutual aid from departments in two separate counties.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Most of the ones that we do have automate automatic aid with are, like I said, career and staff departments.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh some of them are blue card blue cart certified, familiar with that.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, some are still working at that process.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, good.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's start off by talking about the incidents that occurred in in an Amazon facility.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Tell us about the facility, what they do there, the size of the facility, and you know, is it do you regularly respond there and what that does in your community?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so the building itself was built in 2018, hadn't had any previous fire incidents there until 2025.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: The building itself is type two construction, tilt concrete slab walls, roughly 2,300 by 580 feet by 40 feet high.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just under 1.4 million square feet.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: We actually I attended a big box workshop class here recently earlier this year, and they equated it to 24 Cincinnati Bingo football fields inside that building, which really puts it in perspective.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um high-rack storage that's roughly 30, 35 feet tall, uh, pretty much the ceiling level.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh there's hydrogen tanks on the property.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the fork trucks operate off of.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, lithium batteries present as a commodity in the warehouse.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's a 2,000 gallon per minute fire pump with a 200,000 gallon water tower on the property, wet system throughout the building.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Calculations in our pre-plan have told us that 25% involvement in the building would require over 111,000 gallons per minute.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: If it was a hundred percent involvement, it'd be almost 450,000 gallons per minute.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, like every other community, we do not have that type of water supply there.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to be as proactive as possible and you know try to do what we can to protect the property.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh how familiar were you and your people, probably even more importantly, with the fire protection system in that building and how it operates?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: With it being newer construction, uh, I've only been with the department for a little over two and a half years.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of newer construction, a lot of things that the department itself, the personnel are trying to keep up with.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, quite honestly, not as familiar as we should be.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I think after these three incidents, we're much more familiar with the operations of the building, fire protection systems and smoke evacuation systems, all that stuff.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, to answer your question, like I think you we can always be more prepared, but it's difficult, it's a difficult balance, you know, all the things that you have to remember and learn and understand as a you know modern-day fire department.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the three incidents at the distribution center, were those all activated by a fire alarm, or was any of them called in?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: The first two I know for sure were fire alarms from our dispatch county-based dispatch system.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the third, there were notes in the CAD dispatch that referenced a working fire inside.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm pretty sure that came as a fire alarm, also, but there were just additional notes associated with it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, at least two of the Amazon incidents on arrival didn't have anything showing or nothing was evident on that initial radio report.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the follow-up reports is really when they transmitted that this is a working fire.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Either the uh, you know, one of them was they were informed by workers.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So tell tell us about that starting off, how it starts off as a water flow alarm, what kind of response you would get on that.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then once it's upgraded to a structure fire, how does that response look?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we have two separate alarm cards for structure fires within our city.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: One is for a structure fire, uh, then a second is for a high hazard structure fire where we have additional aerials and uh engines attached to that just because we need the manpower, we need the apparatus.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: So the fire alarm itself was just our city units for the most part.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it'd be an engine and a medic, and then our tower or quint and the medic would respond for the structure fire, for a high hazard structure fire, we'd get three aerials, five engines, two medics, and all the mutual aid battalions that would be associated with that call.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and it also puts out a chief's page to our off-duty administration officers.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So let's start with the uh the first fire you went there on.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: What exactly happened and what did your crews find and how did they mitigate it?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one happened back in March, came in at around 11:55 p.m.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was a fire alarm.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: It showed riser 29 flow water flow.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Additional caller advice alarm was going off.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: So the employees didn't report anything seen or smelled.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: They were evacuating the building.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And there was additional alarm for smoke.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: So crews got on scene, did their size up when they went inside it or talked to employees.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: One of the two, they found out that there was smoke inside the building.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: So then they kind of slowed down and followed our you know procedures for these types of buildings, alarm, smoke in the building, possible structure buyers, and tried to get a roof report, gathered crews together, did all the things that we're supposed to do.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So and that included waiting for a team to make entry and an on-deck company that was going to stand by outside prior to the the attack team making entry.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Connecting to the FTC, ensuring that the fire pump and is working properly, all that stuff.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Accounting for every all the employees, make sure they're out of the building.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it seems like that since we just hit the fire department connection briefly there, it that's something as we talk to organizations that are going to fires that have protection buildings that have protection systems in them, you know, oftentimes that's overlooked and somebody gets reminded of that because it's like we we continue to take, not in your case, on any of those incidents that you guys have had, but oftentimes people are taking residential tactics to commercial building fires, and you end up with, you know, three or four companies trying to make a stretch like it's a residential building, and it's like, well, no, it's it's a totally different animal, and the critical fire ground factor should be driving that, which just just goes back to with our system of we take action based off of the critical fire ground factors, not just you know, one size fits all, and this is just this is just what we do.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's some there's some discussion out there about you know who hits the fire department connection.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, locally, uh we we've had plenty of experience locally where there was a delay in hitting the fire department connection.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: And potentially, if they would have pumped the fire department connection, it might have given it enough water to stay ahead of the fire.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the the system itself, you know, locally on a few incidents didn't have a fire pump, so it was just working off of, you know, main pressure and you know, got three or four heads off and it was maxed out for the main.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: But if we would have pumped it, we could have, you know, maybe got ahead of that.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's important that that we keep that in mind and we talk about the fire department connection, that that's a that's a priority, as Shane Ray says.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: The the sprinklers were going off while you were still laying in bed.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we need to support that just like we support, you know, any other in any other operation.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in all your all of your instances, if the sprinkler system, if the sprinkler system doesn't get it, or or hold it in check, I shouldn't say get it, but hold it in check, we're likely not gonna hold it in check, right?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's if it's over if it's overrun the system, you're never gonna you're never gonna catch up with that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: We've had yeah, and I think we've had plenty of we've had several instances in our region over the last 10 years where I think that happened, and it was uh if it overruns the system, it's like we you're you're never gonna catch up.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're you're behind.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I mean you make a good point about the size of these buildings and trying to have a different mindset because you know, some of the things that we learned during these incidents, when we go up, you know, send somebody up to get a roof report, and they can't even see the other end of the building, it's so big.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Or you you know, you send somebody to go meet with somebody on the Charlie side or open a door or whatever it is, and it's I mean, it's not a short process, like it's a five or ten minute walk to get there.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just everything just takes a lot longer.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of of addressing the fire department connection and you guys pumping it, you have a policy or procedure or or common practice that you use, and and how long has that been in place?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: I know the policy was was res revised probably two two years ago or so.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of it we followed a lot of the blue card system, and just I mean, we that system was in place before, but we just trying to make it more in line with what we were teaching our officers and teaching our firefighters so that everybody was on the same page.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that the other thing that I think some of the engineers learned with that was the pressure that that fire pump puts on the system.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times we're not supplying anything, like we're just there as a safety for the most part.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that pump pretty much controls what it needs to control within that building.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So with the first incident coming out as a water flow alarm, they get there and they're gonna upgrade it to a structure fire and start to do all those things that we put in place prior to making entry.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what point how did they learn that it was a uh confirmed fire?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: And how was the interaction between them and the the folks from the building or a responsible party that was interfacing with the fire department?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: That was an opportunity for improvement, probably, just because there wasn't any clear direction of where the and I don't blame the employees there because it's so big and it's you know, if there is an incident in a building like this, that that smoke, it just kind of kind of looks like it's coming from everywhere.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's that part was challenging, trying to determine where it was actually coming from.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I know the all three incidents, it's gotten better each time, but trying to either send a part of administration or a mutual aid chief to get with the facility representatives to make sure they have their counts correct for people inside the building.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that, like I said, I think that's challenging no matter what building or what you know incident it is.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just trying to determine the location of it and the best access point because you know you stop you stop and you pull the line where you think the fire is in one of these buildings and get ready to set up, and it's 500 feet further down, it makes it super difficult.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in this first incident, they they got inside that you know, once once they started making their way to the fire, what was on fire and how how how was it being held by the sprinkler system?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: This one was up, I want to say it was probably the second rack from the top that where it started.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just mixed commodities.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: The entire building is full of mixed commodities.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you could have tires right next to pillows or blankets or lithium batteries.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's and the thing of it is what I've learned in this process is it's not always the same.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that you know, where you have certain commodities on Monday may completely change by Thursday or Friday.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's no way for us to ever prepare for that.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes it way more challenging.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, especially our fire marshal investigating that stuff, it's it's difficult to say the least.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things that we learned at that first incident, and coincidentally, we've had to utilize that and subsequent incidents is forklift operation.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when fire departments in there, we're not gonna allow employees back in, but there's there's we have to get some of that stock off the shelves in order to overhaul and you know, start an investigation and make sure that the fire's out and all that stuff.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: So we had to have firemen operate those forklifts in order to get up there once it was safe, and then pull that stock off the shelves.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole process associated with that.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, these hijack storages are I'm sure you guys are aware, are super tight.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's not a lot of room for error in there.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, especially when stuff catches on fire and starts starts falling, makes it even more difficult.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's storage.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is is there a order picker or a robot that gets things off of there, or do humans get product off of there, or is it both?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: My understanding is all humans with the forklifts in our facility.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Previous Department of Work 4 had a this is a fulfillment center, so it was a smaller facility, but it had the robots that ran along the the ground and went and pulled stock from different baskets and would take them to get shipped or whatever.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But this one, they don't operate that here.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: Chief, I think I think I remember when we were talking about this, that like from this first one, we had some discussion, I think, about like carbon monoxide levels and thinking about that because of the smoke conditions that they encountered, you know, 40 foot high and 1.4 million square feet.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's gonna take a significant fire to fill a box, you know, to the ground with visible smoke.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: But you want can you talk a little bit about like those conditions and that mindset and like what you all learned with that?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we had an incident, it wasn't a fire, probably a year before a year and a half ago, where we were in and the crews had picked up elevated CO levels that were uh 40 to 50 to 70, something like that at ground level.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we looked into it a little bit more, and what we realized was our CO detectors were picking up the carbon dioxide from the uh filling stations and the actual use of the not carbon dioxide, I'm sorry, hydrogen dioxide from the fork trucks, the hydrogen using the hydrogen within the facility.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we purchased us a separate monitor that picks up that hydrogen dioxide so that there's an underlying what appears to be a CO level in the building at all times.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to differentiate that and understand actually where we're at in relation to CO is can be difficult.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in all three of those incidents, the visibility has always been pretty good.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most of the smoke is up at the top level, and I mean you're talking about 1.4 million square feet of smoke filling the building.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's that's why I've told our guys, like we've had a lot of discussion about how far you go into buildings, and you know Josh, you know this better than anybody, trying to explain that to firemen because they you know they're always trying to push the limits or just you know figure out what they can do.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, everything I've told these guys, like if you pull up to a building this size and it's banked down to where you can't see, don't go in that building, you know.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just trying to get guys to understand that and make decisions based on what they've learned and you know their knowledge and experience.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the uh the first arriving unit ends up, you know, get getting to the fire with their team.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: What was on fire?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Was it being held by the the uh the system?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then how did you guys end up extinguishing it all the way?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the first one was being held by the all three for the most part were being held by the system.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, this one started up pretty high in the rack storage, and crews came in and stayed at the ends of the aisles.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was still they were still able to reach it with their host streams.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: We had a alpha interior sector, like an officer in there that was watching crews.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I believe we even brought a crew in from the backside that was hitting it from that end of the rack.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: So at no time, crews were going in in between the rack storage, and they knocked down what they could and then the sprinkler system, and then over time we let it run for I don't remember how long it was.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh for quite a while uh before we were comfortable shutting it down, and then you know, kept somebody at the alarm panel, kept somebody in the fire pump room just to make sure that we were safe.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it was the first time for us in a big fire like this.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the invest you know our fire marshal came out and spent some time investigating, and so everything worked out for the most part.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And how how long did the operation take in total from the time you guys got there to uh your clearing?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, it came in 1155, so crews were there till I don't know, I might have been there till six or six thirty in the morning.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty prolonged incident for for probably not a lot of actual stuff burned up, though.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how how much product was actually burned?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not much, not much.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: So what was time consuming and and and how much should we actually plan on being there?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I and what I really want to do is highlight how long you guys let that sprinkler system run before you shut it down and started uh ventilation.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it was probably I could look at the report, I'd say it was two or two and a half hours at least, maybe hour, 90 minutes, somewhere in that range.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that took you know, multiple reports from officers inside uh reporting that the fire was out, trying to get make sure there were no heat signatures remaining on the ticks.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we were super careful on the first one for obviously, because we hadn't had a ton of experience with it.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: But Josh, you what what's what's Shane telling us right now on leaving that system going and and really what what's the what's the standard or what what should we be doing with that system?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, we when we do the big box sprinkler controlled fire workshops, we we talk about you know sprinkler systems in all types of buildings because we want people to be able to make decisions that connect the dots.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: So when we're in a commercial big box like this, we want to let the system run that 90 minutes, maybe even two hours.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: We might even let it run longer than that based on you know us getting eyes on the fire and is it is it working or is it not working?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then us being able to get into place to be able to control it in place.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a lot of the stuff that's written in the code is based off of how long does the system have to be able to self-sustain.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, if you have 200,000 gallons of water and it's pumping a thousand gallons a minute, you know, how how much time do you have from that?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's where you know some of that number you know comes from.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: But everything that's wet inside of that commercial building is already wet and everything.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's got smoke on it already has smoke on it, so you know we're we're not greatly concerned, and you know, the people say, Oh, we're doing more damage because we're letting the sprinkler system run, or whatever.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, when we're in a big box like that, there's nothing really on the floor, and you know, the water's gonna run off, and we just want it to pre-wet everything that is around where the fire is, and that's what really helps to hold the fire in check is the sprinkler system.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're putting some water onto what is burning, but even a bigger deal is we're doing that pre-wetting, it's getting everything else that is directly around it wet, which just brings me to a little thing before I talk about some other building types and and and sprinkler systems, is that's where we have to be careful with what we do with hose streams, because in some of the live fire training that we've done, you know, rebuilding like a Walmart aisle, and we went in there and had a there was a straight stream, and firefighters are hitting, you know, an aisle of paper good commodities and it's blowing what is on fire into another aisle, and now you end up with another fire somewhere.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just another consideration for us that we're we're overhauling the product.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: We we just want to be careful not to, you know, push what's burning in one place over to another area.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: So in these commercial buildings, we we definitely want to let it run.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: We want to let the sprinkler do its job.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's there for a reason.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as Shane says, we get there, it's already flowing water.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: All we really need to do is ensure that it has the water to keep flowing.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And as Chief Sarver said here, you know, the it'd be really hard for us to overrun that system.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: But the key is that we want to still pump the fire department connection for if the fire pump doesn't work properly or there is a valve closed, no matter what, if we pump the fire department connection, it should what we're pumping when we're pumping the fire department connection, it should supply directly into the sprinkler system.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: So if the pump's not running or it's being overrun or there's a valve partially closed and it's not getting all the water that it needs, if we can supply that, that that's the best thing that we can do so that it's working at you know max capacity.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in the workshop we talk about the fire department uh is pumping it at or the fire fire pump is running at you know 70, 80, 90 pounds.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: But when we pump it at 150, you know, the GPMs that we really get.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: So a head might flow 90 on the fire pump, but when we pump it at 150, maybe we're gonna get 250 out of it, depending on you know what head is inside that building.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: And in a big building like this, it's definitely got you know ESFR, you know, high flow heads in there.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a piece, and that's just a different mindset for us because we go to these fires and you know, hotels, for example, or apartment buildings.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there, you know, it contains the fire, and we want to shut that off, you know, as quickly as we can once we know the fire is contained to prevent water damage.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, two totally different pieces, but you know, so many people want to you know shut the fire department fire pump down or shut the shut the fire protection system down because they're worried about water damage, or you know, recently let's shut that down and let's go mop this up.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they were more worried about getting back to the firehouse than they were, you know, the final outcome from the event.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately, you know, chiefs are you know, more and more people are getting educated on this and we're we're making better decisions.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it all comes down to the decision piece, right?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: So if if you had an isolated fire and the sprinkler systems running and you can get eyes on it, you might shut it off in 15 minutes.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: But in this case, you're 150 feet inside the building and it's in the middle of a rack that's you know 500 feet long, just as they did.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll I'll leave it run all day, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Until we are comfortable that we can put people into place to make sure the fire is contained.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because the last thing that anybody wants is to take ownership of I shut the system down that is responsible to keep this building from burning down, and now it's on us, right?
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And we've we've seen that, we've seen that in the past, or we don't supply the fire department connection and there's not a good outcome.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, regardless, when we pull up, hook up, and pump up.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's a simple, you know, chain ray thing.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And if the fire pump's working at capacity, like Chief said, then perfect.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But if it fails at any point or there becomes a shortage of water, then we can replace that.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that that just brings me to another thing that hit real quick is that pre-planning and having an understanding of where the water's coming from.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Again, recently a couple of large fires in in in this part of the country where they kept on running out of water, and it was maybe they weren't totally familiar with how much water was in the area, but it wasn't enough to extinguish the fire and to put to supply water everywhere that they really wanted to supply the water.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that understanding of don't necessarily pick up a hydrant that's on a line that's applying the fire pump because you're you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul kind of thing.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: And what's right at the seat of the fire or in the area of the fire is the sprinkler system.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what that's the priority of getting water to the sprinkler system before before we do anything else with it.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And as we know, and I've this will be the second or third time I've said this, if if the system's not controlling it when we get there, it's a loser.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: We're likely never gonna catch up with it.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: So for those unfamiliar with ESFR heads, the this this particular building, this incident, were their ESFR heads activated.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, John, that's a great question.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the the specifics of the heads in that building.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I probably find out from our fire marshal, but I don't know the exact flows of them.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm I'm sure that I'm sure that they not 2018 and a one point, yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure that with with that commodity mix and that square footage open like that, I'm sure that that's the heads that are in there.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk for a second about what ESFR heads do and and how how they differ from what we find in residential buildings.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's the capability, Josh, of an ESFR head when we compare it to what we normally see in a hotel?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's just a it's it's it's just you know, uh it's good, we get a faster response and they're gonna flow a whole lot more water.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: So a head in uh the Drury Inn on the seventh floor, the the head that's over the bed, you know, it might flow 35 to 70 gallons a minute, even when we're pumping it, you know, at capacity.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas in these large buildings like this, you know, 250, 300, maybe even 400 gallons a minute could be a potential, you know, depending on how we're pumping it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, when we're doing the May Day Workshop, we talk about that and we talk about the burns that we did up there in Minnesota, and we were getting 160 or 70 gallons a minute out of those ESFR heads, each one of them.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think the I don't remember exactly what the pressure was, but it was like 90.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: But when we were able to get it up to 150, and I think we had I think there was six heads off.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we were it was flowing 1500 gallons a minute, and I I remember standing in there and it was like we might need a kayak and a life jacket to get out of here because there was so there was so much water flowing, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you could and you could hear it, right?
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the difference, but that comes back to the code being you know, building the buildings and making sure that the building department, the fire department does their job on the front end of making sure that the system matches the product that's inside the building so that so that it it does contain the fire.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you put a you put a residential head in the Amazon, you can forget it.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not gonna do nothing.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's a uh it's a sprinkler for your backyard compared to you know, basically those heads are it's like a two and a half flowing, you know, wide open with just one of them.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: So we always talk about how many how many lines do we have to stretch into place to get you know five, six, seven, eight, nine, thousand gallons a minute, when oftentimes the sprinkler heads, you get two or three of those heads off and you're flowing a thousand gallons a minute.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if that's not getting it, then what makes us think that we are gonna get it?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just that's just that understanding of the system and that whole mindset of we have to stop taking residential tactics to commercial building fires.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: And in this case, I want to make sure that I'm clear the the City of Monroe Fire Department did not do that.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_02: They they handled it, you know, appropriately, even coming out as a fire alarm drop, and they investigated and figured out there is smoke in here, and we need to set this up and get a roof report and supply the fire department connection and talk to some people and all of that.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, the progression through all three fires, you can see where little tweaks and changes were made, and then passing it on to other crews so that everybody learns about it.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then fortunately, you know, the ability to like to get on here today with the chief and to talk about it so that everybody, more and more people, get the message of this isn't this isn't the hotel room at the jury inn on fire, or it's not a you know, 1100 square foot apartment that's got a sprinkler head in it on fire.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is 1.4 million square foot of anything and everything that as the chief said, tires to batteries to pillows.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we should treat that differently.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no beds in there.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: So we hear it, we hear it oftentimes about the whole mindset of the we got to get a search, and it's like go ahead and go down to the football, the high school the local high school football stadium, that's just one twenty-fourth of the size of that building, and it's wide open.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: And tell me how you think that you're gonna do some kind of search with that.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: But we still hear this we hook a rope up and we do wide area search in this building, and it's like what are you searching for?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because if there was nothing in there, the three of us could go to that building right now, and probably all day, if you said don't say nothing, just walk around and not see each other inside that building, right?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: So so it's a we just have to take a totally different mindset to that.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: So and with that, Chief, did did you find any life safety issues in this building?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Were were people evacuated?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: Did you or was that even necessary to have that consideration because you did have confirmed evacuation?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the first two incidents, I know that we did a pretty good job and got confirmed evacuations pretty quickly.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: The the third, uh I remember we had one person missing, but ended up finding out they had left a little bit earlier before the incident occurred.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: So they have a tracking system within that facility with the badges so that they're able to tell where somebody clocks out and what time, what you know, all that stuff.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: So they were able to check their system and figure out where that person was.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Shane Ray makes that point that I I don't think they've had but one uh documented death inside one of these buildings.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And in that particular instance, it was a delivery driver that was sleeping inside of the van, and there might have been some intoxicants or something like that involved that that kept that person a little bit incapacitated too when that fire came out.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: That his point is is people self-evacuate, they get out, they appoint, they report their accountability, and and they're usually not stuck because the sprinkler system buys them time to get out of the building.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: It gives them enough enough to to actually get out.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's typically what they see.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just kind of attention.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: So the that that's really comes back to that primary search piece, right?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm going to a big box, primary search looks totally different than it does when I go to somebody's house or apartment building or a hotel on fire or even a strip mall or a standalone restaurant or whatever, right?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: The the I'm using all the information that I can get.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: So as the chief said there, they got this badge system where the RP can tell me whether, you know, you know, potentially people are inside and out.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, there's technology that's available where we can oftentimes, you know, track the people who are inside of a building like this.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's not it's an occupied building.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Joe walking down the street can't walk into that Amazon distribution center and be walking around in there.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's secured.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we treat that differently, right?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not like we aren't still worried about life safety.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: We are.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're thinking about if somebody is in here, but if we think that we're gonna check every inch of a 1.4 million square foot building, it's gonna take longer than the it's gonna take longer than even them being there till 6 a.m.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: when the fire came out at midnight, right?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like how long does that how long does that really take?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: People are gonna often most often, as has been proven in doing research on these fires, they're gonna exit the building.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: They aren't gonna stay there if they can self-evacuate.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even we can even go to the to the Walmart thing because it'll come up like a you know 130,000 square foot Walmart, and people are like, Oh, there could be people in there because they got their they were videoing the fire and they had their camera.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, every there ain't been nobody die inside of a Walmart or Target, and there ain't been nobody rescued, right?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, sometimes you might have to tell them, hey, it's time to go, you gotta evacuate, you're gonna walk out of here.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: But this whole it's a totally different mindset than I'm going to a 2,000 square foot house that's on fire and I'm doing search because somebody was sleeping in there, or it's two o'clock in the morning, right?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's just a totally different case.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: It comes back to our whole mindset that we talk about.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Love does the place have beds, or does it could it potentially have beds?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if it does, then we have a little different thought process, but it all lines up to it all lines up to the critical factors.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: It starts with that.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, completing the the AARs on each one of these incidents.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I ever heard the word search one time.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So Chief, let's just kind of combine those those three Amazon incidents and and let us know any of the lessons learned that you you guys did a very thorough AAR review afterwards using the tools that we give departments with our blue card system.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you use that tool, which is very helpful.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, what did what did you learn by going through that process and some of the things that you passed on to your crews that would change the the next time you went and that that would benefit everybody listening today?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the system itself, I think, is invaluable, especially for us, because you know, previously in the fire service, you there was different types of after action reports, and you you know, detailed or not, uh, but some sometimes things would always get lost in translation, it seemed like.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this really formalizes the process and provides the radio traffic and exactly what guys said, and it's it's super valuable for all you've crossed all shifts so they can learn.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this system is probably one of the things that has helped us improve and prepare more for future incidents.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: The one thing I could tell you from a personal aspect, doing an AAR on a run similar to this is more difficult than a like a small house fire, which is there's so much more information.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, some of the stuff we talked about previously, the air monitoring stuff we had talked about, you know, we had some access issues on that first incident that we had to work through with the facility um regarding gates and different things like that.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: More knowledge and experience related to the we didn't end up using it, but just the smoke removal system within the building or within the building.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think on this last incident, or maybe it was the first one, one of them we contacted City Cincinnati to have a large fan truck to help because that that air just stays in there.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's difficult to get it out once it's in there, that smoke.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we utilized that.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Went over the fire pump operations.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: So some of the stuff we realized was not labeled as clearly as it could be, especially for fire department personnel to understand and operate it.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was more set up for sprinkler system, you know, employees.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we've worked on some of that stuff.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Josh touched on the water damage a little bit, like some of that stock is just it's damage, it is what it is.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: We've realized that this building does not drain very well, so the water just kind of stays in there, which isn't necessarily an issue for us, but it I mean it could be incident location.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: The building was a big one.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just trying to get with the security within the facility or the employees and give giving us a general area where the incident or you know, what's going on.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: I talked about the forklift operation.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of our guys are pretty familiar with that now.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me see here.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the other things that we came up with, we updated, revised our pre-plans because we needed more information right related to riser zone maps uh because the building's so big and there's so many risers that knowing which riser controls which aisles and things like that was uh something we really needed to invest time in and learn.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: And luckily the facility helped us out with that.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Other than that, I mean, like I said, I think the incidents from beginning to end have improved greatly.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, our scores don't necessarily reflect that, but I'm kind of hard on the guys sometimes with stuff.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: But an aspect of that, which I'm super proud of and think that we've improved a ton.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: So the first two incidents was two two of our battalion chiefs on different ships that were the incident commanders.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this last incident, even though the score may have been a little bit lower, was actually lieutenant, and this was the first structure fire he was an instant commander on.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: So not the easiest first fire to command for sure, and he did a great job.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: So other than that, I mean a lot of the lessons learned is just stuff that kind of you guys talk about in the big box workshop.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we reinvented anything, it's just trying to get guys to understand why we do certain things, and you know, letting the sprinkler system run for 90 minutes or two hours while guys kind of stand around and wait is not the sexiest thing to do in the fire service, but it's the smart, smart thing to do.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so uh talking about that riser piece, right?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's that's why the terminology and having a plan and and training on these is so important because if if you say um we're ready to shut the we're ready to shut the system down, well, what does that mean, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and who's in that room?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: They might shut the fire pump down or they might shut the whole system down, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, well, if there's if there's eight or ten or twelve risers in that building, or how many ever there is, you know, we we only want to isolate it in that particular area and leave the rest of the system up and running, right?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we hear that oftentimes, like, yeah, we've shut the whole system down.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, we want to still protect the rest of the building, but there could be another fire, or we we want the system intact.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's that that's that piece of the training, the pre-planning, the uh what you say, making sure that everybody's on the same page.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're ready to shut the riser down that supplies this area, being specific, and then you know, using the order model, a specific task location, and objective, and you know, command function one, that whole mindset of the resource, like who who is actually in there?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if there's somebody that is a responsible party for a facility that that knows the system, maybe having them in that room with you also because they know best.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: But when we you you shut down the entire system to 1.4 million square feet, it's a process for the sprinkler system company to come back in and turn it back on, right?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know, oftentimes we end up with catastrophic failure from that just because we're stopping or restarting so much water movement.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just a another consideration when it comes to evaluation of critical fire ground factors.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: What's the problem and what are we gonna do to solve the problem?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: So within within our system, when we talk about big box fires, there's really, you know, four things that we say that we do before we start to take action inside the building.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we create an attack team because we know that it's gonna take more than you know, two or three people to stretch a line, you know, potentially 150 feet inside of a building with rack storage, or for that matter, even Walmart going inside the front door.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's five turns before you get to the aisle.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, like create an attack team, get an on-deck company there to replace them because we got people working.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Supply the fire department connection and make sure we get a roof report.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then from there, you know, we start to take action.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: But we can do that because when we're trained and we have an understanding of it, we we know that the sprinkler system is doing one of two things.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's holding it in check or it's overrun it, one or the other, right?
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the holding it in check, we can kind of look at the conditions.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: We can use thermal imaging cameras.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thermal imaging cameras can kind of help us.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: You can see water flowing inside of a building.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: You can't see through the water, but you can see the water through a thermal imaging camera flowing inside the building, which is another thing we've done regionally is through our company officer decision making program.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: We we've we include that in the tech class and the company officer decision making program.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you use your camera, if you're at a sprinkler-controlled fire or a building with that where the sprinkler system's going off, because that will kind of show you where the fire is because you're gonna see the water.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: The water's likely gonna be colder than anything else unless you're in, you know, a cold distribution, you know, center like type facility.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: So the other thing I had was just just thinking about and using all the technology that's available.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there's there's you know so many things, you know, there's all kinds of cameras that people have inside there.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now getting access to those sometimes can be quite a challenge.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: But on the flip of it, I've been on uh quite a few fires, one of them in a goodwill facility that we we use in our big boss class where the responsible party had it on his on his on his cell phone and showed video of the light bulb falling from the ceiling, falling into a rack storage of clothing and setting everything on fire.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, unfortunately, we didn't see that video until like six hours into the event.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: But if we would have had that, it was priceless.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so you know, asking that question, do you have access to the video?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And in some cases, they don't have access, it's just a corporate thing where they can you know see it from somewhere else, or they might not share it at all because of you know, for whatever reason.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then with with drone technology, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can we can oftentimes use a drone to help us, you know, from rooftop to see you know exactly what's going on.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: If the fire is extended beyond the sprangler system, you know, you can definitely pinpoint you know where the most where the most energy is coming from, or if it or if it's breached the roof.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, in this case, that 1.4 million square feet, I'm not getting up there on the roof and walking around at all.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And from a bucket at any one point, like the chief said, I can't even see the other side of the building.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, having that resource available where somebody could fly the entire roof if they have a clue what they're looking at of you know what's actually you know going on at the building or with with within the building.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's kind of my my my two my two cents on like the best practice thing on on the responding to these big box fires.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I mean you touched on it a little bit.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I took away and that we've communicated all of our officers from that big box workshop was uh not shutting down the fire pump.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, and having the facility representative or the sprinkler system representatives take that liability away from us.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I looked at the our riser map real quickly while you were talking, and we've got 35 riser zones in that building.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to figure out which operates which zone without a map is difficult to say the least.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And people get frustrated and just shut off the overall system.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and we we've seen in case studies and and some of them very well documented, the fire actually overruns the original position.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's into other racks where other sprinkler heads are going off and they didn't even realize it because they didn't look at the alarm panel.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: So keeping the system on and functioning as much as possible until you are absolutely positively sure, or better yet, turning it over to the uh responsible party to get it back in service.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we we were talking to Shane about this a couple weeks ago, and he said that fire pump, and a lot of times fire departments are trying to limit that they feel like they're gonna save the fire pump, or they think the fire pump might be cavitating or it's not getting enough water.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's all these reasons they mess with the fire pump.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Shane is telling us not to ever just leave the fire pump alone, let it run.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, chances are that it's gonna be pulled after the incident, especially if it's ran for a while, they're gonna either rebuild it or replace it because the impellers get warped pretty quickly in those.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're gonna they're gonna completely service the pump anyway.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have to worry about the pump getting uh worn out or anything.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: As long as it's getting water and it's running, that's all we need to worry about.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and we'll let the the professionals who deal with it on a regular basis be the ones to shut it down and and and service it afterwards.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was some really good advice for Shane.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Chief, uh as we uh wrap up the talk about Amazon and there was another incident that you guys had at another large facility that's a manufacturing facility.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: How did these incidents at Amazon maybe help you with that particular incident with another working fire being sprinkler controlled in this large manufacturing facility?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that uh just the overall mindset that the officers have adopted and passed along to the firefighters has just prepared us even more for entering these buildings.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: So as Josh is aware, you know, that one side of our city is it's full of these buildings, different contents, different commodities, all that stuff.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: That fire you're speaking of is a manufacturing facility where they use fibers and they press them together and process, and that's what is attached to these underlayment in vehicles and the trunks and hoods, things like that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: So these fibers are loose, they're they're just everywhere throughout the building and outside the building.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was telling you guys before, there's before my time with the organization, some of the guys have told me they've showed up before where the sprinkler pipes were on fire.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a it's a challenging atmosphere to enter into when you know you're you're trying to uh mitigate an emergency.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: But guys, firemen are resourceful.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's one thing I've learned throughout my career.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: So they usually they may not always want to change, but they can adapt when they see the reasoning for it, and it's a you know positive experience for them.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's so important that we that we continue to put this message out there and we continue to run these blue card workshops because probably 95% of the information that comes out there on a daily basis is about the 95% of the buildings that we go to the most that are on fire, which are residential buildings.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it's important that we talk about the critical factors and best practices that you know these buildings that are big boxes that have sprinklers in them.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to have the discussion about the old mill buildings or the older buildings that maybe don't have or have partial sprinkler systems in them.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like what do we what what do we do there and what does that look like?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: As well as every other building type, strip malls, mid-rise, you know, apartment buildings, you name it, right?
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: They they they they aren't making anything easier for us when it comes to the technologies that they use and how they're building things.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it seems like daily there's something new that comes out.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, us as professionals in our industry need you know need to stay connected and follow best practice.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: So a place that people can go find a little bit of information is NFPA 13E, like when you're responding to uh fires in buildings that have sprinkler systems in them.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then the latest release of NFPA 1700 has some information in there about you know some very specific building types and building types that have sprinkler systems in them.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: So again, it's obvious that you know 1.4 million square feet, that that's not somebody's single family residence, so that we should be addressing that differently.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: We we have no question, and we do pretty well with that with EMS.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: When you get called the chest pains, it's chest pains, it's not somebody's broken leg, or vice versa.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: But in the fire department, traditionally, we've taken that same approach, and you know, part of it's probably because what we hear every single day, the the banter that's out there about residential building fires and everybody's you know, personal's perspective or what you're supposed to be doing.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: And these buildings continue to pop up, and it's they say that it's the the big box in this industry is the fastest growing building type in the U.S.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, we continue to do some research on that, and we found we found some buildings now that are like six million square feet, and like they're building the tallest building and the most square foot building right now, I think, in the city of Phoenix, like the largest building that exists in the United States, and it just keeps on getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and it's not 1.4 million, it's you know 10 million, and it's like, well, what do you do with that?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what does that look like?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we are not built, the fire service is not built to be able to protect those.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's why they put the systems in there to protect the building, so it's it's just a different mindset.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Josh, what do we have coming up that we can help people prepare for these, especially if they haven't either attended a big box workshop or even you know gotten our our simulation and and our SOP on how we handle big box buyers with blue card?
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so we got uh we got a big box class coming up February 3rd and 4th.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: So let me just back up.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: So the big box workshops we do, Shane Ray does the entire first day, and there's there's nobody that I know of or I've ever connected with in my entire career that knows more about the systems and connects with the industry and ends up him or him or some of his folks end up at any significant fire that's in a big box, they end up there or end up with information about it, whether they connect through the fire department or they end up connecting through the the fire protection you know systems company.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: So day one is all Shane Ray, and it's always fantastic, and he's always got you know the latest, greatest information, and who better to hear it from than the guy who the guy who is in charge of the group that has their hand in writing all the best practice practice procedures for the installation, care, maintenance, and use of sprinkler systems.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: So February 3rd and 4th, we got a big box in Cincinnati that's full.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: March 12th and 13th, there's open seats in Ocala, Florida.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're somewhere where it's cold, Ocala, Florida wouldn't be a bad place to end up in March.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: May 4th and 5th, we're gonna be in North County in the state of Washington, and then September 18th and 19th, we'll be at Benton Harbor, Michigan.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's like maybe 10 seats left in just that class.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the four we got scheduled right now.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: We'll probably add two more at some point.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're looking for information or something on the big box workshops, or you can go to our website and download the we got a free big box SOG that you know we've built through over time and continue to revise, living in command function seven, like we always say.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: Shane Ray giving us information.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: What should we do?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: What should we consider?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what's the best practice for you know, for us in our region?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm right here pretty close to where Chief Sarver is for you know the suburban fire department.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: That response is no different than it is for the largest fire department in the world when you're responding to these buildings.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_02: The the fire is still the same, and the systems are going to be, you know, the same.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that that SOG is applicable to anybody, and it is indeed, you know, best practice and been reviewed and verified by the National Fire Sprinkler Association.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: So, and if if you're not familiar with that group, they got their hand in every fire that's happened in anything that's got a sprinkler system in it, and they got their they got their hand in a lot of fires that have happened that are tragic that the sprinkler system's been removed or wasn't working.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: So we're super happy to continue to partner with them and be able to share this information because yeah, we're we spend 95% of our time talking about single-family residential building fires, it seems like, and we're going to these and we need to spend some time talking about that and educate and train our people on the best practice.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: And having Chief Sarver on here today talking about, you know, the just their lessons learned, and you know, what they were doing anyway was excellent, but you can always do better, and then they can just pass it along.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I love hearing the success stories of the ride-up lieutenant who operates and understands the system, doing a fantastic job, but it's because they have a system to use.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't they had to get there and make decisions, but they had a system to help them make the decisions, and then there was some guidance on this is what we do when we go to this kind of building.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, Chief, uh, did you have any other final thoughts or comments that you want to make before we wrap up and do a timeless tactical truth today?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I appreciate what you guys are doing, trying to get this knowledge and experience out there and share it so you know other departments can learn from uh not saying we had any mistakes, but just some of the things that opportunities for improvement.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, something for them to think about before they respond to an incident like this.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we appreciate you being here with us today and taking your time to share with us some of the lessons, learn some of the best practices that you're doing and your experience with the after-action review system, too.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for being here today on the B Shifter Podcast.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Before we go, it's time for a Timeless Tactical Truth from Alan Brunacini.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: These Timeless Tactical Truths are available in the Timeless Tactical Truth book at the B Shifter store.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: And today's Timeless Tactical Truth, the things that lead up to accidents can happen slowly.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: The accident generally happens very fast.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this one, the things that lead up to accidents can happen slowly.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_00: The accidents generally happen very fast.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, we talk about the Swiss cheese effect and emergency services and and how a lot of things, when we have catastrophic failures, a lot of little things went into making that happen.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, you guys were doing a lot of the things that you need to do, but it was a very slow process, right?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: And how how do you find slowing down your people uh works?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and do you have any tips for us, uh Chief Sarver or even Josh, on on slowing the incident down so those accidents don't happen quickly?
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, just as you guys know, it that's tough with firemen trying to get them to slow down, uh, especially when it's a structure fire, adrenaline, and you know, all that stuff that comes into play.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think the adequate training and just communication and explaining the why beforehand, you know, helps those guys understand that stuff.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously a strong command presence, you know, I've been a part of multiple fire scenes over my career.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, if you have a strong incident commander that communicates clearly and effectively, then it puts you in a position to be successful right from the very beginning.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think those two things just the communication beforehand, explaining the why, the education, and then strong incident command helps melt things down.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it yeah explaining the why is the big deal, right?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know, the first fire you guys went to in that building, I'm sure there was a little different mindset than the than the third fire you went to in the building because the first one it's like, oh, we're going to this place and it's the first fire we've had in there, and then the third one, it's like all these things that we did that worked, and then the word gets out, like yeah, it's really not a lot of fun.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like we don't need we don't need to be going crazy and getting there, and we're this isn't this isn't a thousand square foot shotgun home that we made the fire at five o'clock and we're gonna have dinner at the firehouse at six because we're gonna be cleaned up.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we might be here to see the sunrise tomorrow.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it it's it's exactly what you said, explaining the why and training your people and making sure that you're sending the clear message of this is what we do within our organization and within our region.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because the podcast we did a few weeks ago, who's training your people?
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's people out there, everybody's got an opinion and everybody's got an a view, but I will I'll say this everything that we do, teach, and talk about is verified and based off of best practice and has been used, you know.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, our the system has been used at hundreds of thousands of fires over the years.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think that's the key.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: Don't don't keep them in the dark, train them, keep them connected.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Assistant Chief Stephen Starber of the Monroe Fire Department in Ohio, thank you very much for taking time to be here again today and uh sharing your incident with us.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: And Josh, it's always good to see you too.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um thank everyone for listening to us today, and thanks for listening to this episode of the Fifth.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk to you next week.