Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #534 Parental Burnout With Dr Kate Gawlik

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#534 Parental Burnout With Dr Kate Gawlik · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: wants answers. Now, it's the Happy Families Podcast. Hello stopped.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Justin Colson the founder of Happy Families dot com dot
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  Speaker 1: a U and the author of six actually seven, the
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  Speaker 1: seventh one's about to come out, seven books about how
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: to make families happier. Today, Kylie's not with me, but
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  Speaker 1: instead I'm joined by a special guest from Ohio in
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  Speaker 1: the United States. Doctor Kate Glick is an Associate Professor
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of Clinical Nursing at the Ohio State University College of
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  Speaker 1: Nursing and a nurse practitioner, and she recently conceived and
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  Speaker 1: conducted the Burnout Scale and Report.
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  Speaker 2: Looking at how parents have gone during COVID.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that in just a sec
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  Speaker 1: because parents are burned out even without COVID. Parents have
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  Speaker 1: burned out, but COVID has only accelerated, exacerbated and amplified
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  Speaker 1: the problems. I might also mention that Kate knows a
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  Speaker 1: bit about parenting during COVID and parenting generally, because she
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  Speaker 1: has four kids and under. And she joins me now,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Golik, Great to have you with me. Thanks so
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  Speaker 1: much for being on the podcast.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: Do you mind if I call you Kaite?
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Yes? Please?
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  Speaker 1: Kate, tell me a bit about this study parents burnout.
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  Speaker 1: How do you define burnout when you're looking at parenting?
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  Speaker 3: So, burnout is really that chronic stress and that chronic
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  Speaker 3: overwhelming exhaustion that parents feel that actually overwhelms their ability
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  Speaker 3: to cope and often even function. And typically it's due
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  Speaker 3: to some kind of mismatch between their stressors and then
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  Speaker 3: the resources that are available. But typically it just leaves
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  Speaker 3: parents feeling very physically and mentally emotionally exhausted. And then
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  Speaker 3: the other thing I can do is actually cause that
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  Speaker 3: feeling of detachment from their children.
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  Speaker 1: Kate, I don't want to make light of what you're saying,
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  Speaker 1: but as I listened to much of your description, I
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  Speaker 1: think that kind of describes most parents most of the time, right.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, every parent that.
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  Speaker 1: I talk to says I'm tired, I'm exhausted, I'm overwhelmed.
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  Speaker 1: It's really hard to raise kids, especially in a world
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  Speaker 1: like the one we live in today. I don't think
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  Speaker 1: that the world that we've created for ourselves is particularly
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  Speaker 1: kind to families and especially children and parents. But my
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  Speaker 1: sense is that as you're describing that overwhelming exhaustion, that
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  Speaker 1: so tired and so much going on that I don't
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  Speaker 1: quite know how to function, that's probably starting to select
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  Speaker 1: us a much smaller number of parents not just exhausted,
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  Speaker 1: but not actually functioning. But then you've hadded that last
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  Speaker 1: bit that I think must be critically important and must
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  Speaker 1: also be heartbreaking for a parent to experience, and that
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  Speaker 1: is a sense.
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  Speaker 2: Of detachment from their kids.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds almost like it's aligned with depression, that inability
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  Speaker 1: to feel to connect.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think what's funny about the term emotions. Funny,
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  Speaker 3: but you know, I was feeling, you know, this feeling
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  Speaker 3: and I didn't know what it was. I'm like, I
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  Speaker 3: don't feel depressed, I don't feel anxious, and it seemed
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  Speaker 3: to be very centered on that parenting role. And I
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  Speaker 3: heard the term parental burnout and I was like, that's it, Like,
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  Speaker 3: that's what I'm feeling. And I think that there are
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  Speaker 3: very different degrees of burnout and it can really depend.
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  Speaker 3: You know, there's this continuum and you can start to
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  Speaker 3: feel you know, mild burnout, and then you get to
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  Speaker 3: more severe burnout. And when you get to that severe burnout,
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  Speaker 3: and that's when it's really really a problem. But there
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  Speaker 3: are a lot of preventative things that we can kind
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  Speaker 3: of do in between to make sure and you know,
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  Speaker 3: help so you don't get to that overwhelming sense of
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  Speaker 3: I can't do this anymore feeling.
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  Speaker 1: When you describe that, it reminds me of that article
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  Speaker 1: that pretty much the whole World Soul that Adam Grant
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  Speaker 1: wrote in The New York Times a couple of months
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  Speaker 1: ago about languishing. But he distinguishes between burnout and languishing.
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  Speaker 1: So we've got languishing, which is feeling joyless and aimless.
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  Speaker 1: But then we've got burnout, which is not having energy,
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  Speaker 1: not knowing how to function, and feeling completely overwhelmed. And
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  Speaker 1: we're adding a sense of detachment from the kids. And
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  Speaker 1: if we look at burnout and the parental experience, how
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  Speaker 1: many parents are really experiencing this sense of what you
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  Speaker 1: described that you went through, this sense of parental burnout.
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  Speaker 3: So with our study, it was about sixty six percent
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  Speaker 3: of parents. And our study was conducted in January to
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  Speaker 3: April of twenty twenty one, so it was still in
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  Speaker 3: that phase. It wasn't like the immediate phase it was
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  Speaker 3: kind of like this phase where everybody was still you know,
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  Speaker 3: parents were having to adapt and be flexible to all
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  Speaker 3: these different circumstances all the time, and like you didn't
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  Speaker 3: necessarily know what next week was going to look like,
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  Speaker 3: or you know, if you were going to have a
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  Speaker 3: kid home, or if your kids were even going to
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  Speaker 3: be in school. You know. So all of these factors,
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  Speaker 3: along with this loss of a sense of control, I
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  Speaker 3: think really contribute to this in parents. You know. So
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  Speaker 3: we weren't in that immediate phase, but we were in
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  Speaker 3: this like long haul phase where everybody's just feeling it
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  Speaker 3: and we just we don't know how to get rid
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  Speaker 3: of it, you know, because again we've just lost so
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  Speaker 3: much control over so many different things. So I think
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  Speaker 3: that was part of the reason why that was so high.
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  Speaker 2: I love that turn of phrase, that focus on control.
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  Speaker 1: I remember reading about organization or burnout back when I
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  Speaker 1: used to be a doctoral student.
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  Speaker 2: Myself, and people who are stressed at.
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  Speaker 1: Work, people who are experiencing burnout at work, it usually
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  Speaker 1: comes from a loss of control, a sense that I'm
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  Speaker 1: not able to affect change. Did you find that in
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  Speaker 1: your research? Have you found that as you've looked at
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  Speaker 1: the definitions and the way this works. A parent's mainly
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  Speaker 1: getting burned out, not because of the stress, the challenge
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  Speaker 1: and the overwhelming nature of parenting generally, but the specific
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  Speaker 1: element of feeling like they're helpless and can't do anything
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  Speaker 1: to change things.
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  Speaker 3: So we didn't specifically look at that metric, which actually
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  Speaker 3: would be a wonderful thing to look at, but you know,
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  Speaker 3: we did find certain risk factors for tell.
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  Speaker 2: Me about that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, if you were female, you tended to have higher
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  Speaker 3: rates of burnout, if you had more than two kids,
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  Speaker 3: if you yourself experienced any diagnosis of depression, anxiety, if
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  Speaker 3: your child had a diagnosis of anxiety or ADHD. And
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  Speaker 3: then interestingly enough, the parents that thought their child had
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  Speaker 3: some type of mental health disorder but it hadn't yet
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  Speaker 3: but been diagnosed. Okay, and again you kind of see
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  Speaker 3: that loss of control there where they're feeling like, I
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  Speaker 3: don't know what's going on, you know, So that actually
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  Speaker 3: caused and was associated with higher rates of burnout too.
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  Speaker 1: I just want to unpack a few of us briefly.
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  Speaker 1: Tom will get away from his doing it thoroughly, but
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  Speaker 1: let's just have a look at this. First of all,
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  Speaker 1: female much more predictive of experiencing burnout than male. I've
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  Speaker 1: got a couple of hypotheses for why this would be.
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  Speaker 1: But what did you find in your research? Why is
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  Speaker 1: it the boys don't feel the burnout with the pressure
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  Speaker 1: of the stress like the girls do.
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  Speaker 3: Well. I definitely think, especially during this pandemic, fathers were
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  Speaker 3: also very much so affected. But I think, you know,
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  Speaker 3: being female and the mother, you're kind of like holding
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  Speaker 3: it all together, and oftentimes that you know what I
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  Speaker 3: think of like the invisible backpack of you know, keeping
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  Speaker 3: the house clean, doing the cooking and cleaning, being that
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  Speaker 3: emotional support system often falls to the role of the mother,
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  Speaker 3: and so again you're just layering things on an already
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  Speaker 3: stressful situation and it's just too much, you know, like
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  Speaker 3: we're not super humans. That I felt, you know, during
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  Speaker 3: the pandemic, I was supposed to be all of these roles,
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  Speaker 3: you know, and doing all these things, and being a
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  Speaker 3: teacher and a full time employee and you know, a
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  Speaker 3: spouse and all of these things. It's like you can't,
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  Speaker 3: you can't do it all.
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  Speaker 1: In the early part of my marriage, and this is
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  Speaker 1: a hard thing to disclose, but in the early part
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  Speaker 1: of my marriage.
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  Speaker 2: I was a radio and out sorry.
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  Speaker 1: I worked for one of the major radio stations here
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  Speaker 1: in Australia, and I had the attitude. In fact, I
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  Speaker 1: was explicit and open with my wife about it, and
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  Speaker 1: she was supportive of it. If I'm going to shoup
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  Speaker 1: and be on the radio, I've got to be energetic,
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  Speaker 1: I've got to be positive, I've got to be I've
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  Speaker 1: got to perform. And therefore I intentionally said to her,
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  Speaker 1: would you please take on the cognitive load? Would you
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  Speaker 1: please take on the running of the household, so that
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  Speaker 1: I can perform my duties at work as best I can.
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  Speaker 3: Now.
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  Speaker 1: We were fortunate that my wife was in a full
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  Speaker 1: time home making role and so she was willing to
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  Speaker 1: and happy to dedicate her focus to that. But had
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  Speaker 1: she been working, that would have been a really hard
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  Speaker 1: thing to ask for her. It was a hard thing anyway.
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  Speaker 1: As time has gone on, I've recognized that asking my
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  Speaker 1: wife to shoulder the entire cognitive load of the family
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  Speaker 1: is a little unfair and have worked really hard to
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  Speaker 1: distribute the burden of that a little bit more effectively.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think we've done a reasonable job of that.
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  Speaker 1: But just hearing you talk about this heightens my w
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  Speaker 1: of just how much work there is for men to
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  Speaker 1: do to make life a little easier for the women
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  Speaker 1: in their lives. Like the burnout thing is real. After
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the break, we're going to talk a bit more about
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  Speaker 1: those other predictors, that is, having kids who have diagnoses
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  Speaker 1: or perhaps who aren't diagnosed but may need it, and
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: maternal diagnosis of mental illness. Plus we're going to work
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: out what we can do to reduce burnout in our families.
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  Speaker 1: You've asked politely, you've asked again, you've patiently waited, you've
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: even made a threat, but finally you lose it.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Listen to me, you shout. In the practical.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Webinar the Screaming Spiral, you'll learn the top reasons why
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: your child isn't listening, and you'll get pro tips and
• 9:46
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• 9:49
  Speaker 2: Available on the Happy Family's webshop.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Now, it's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now speaking with
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: doctor Kate Glick. Kate is an Associate professor of Clinical
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Nursing at the Ohio State University College of Nursing and
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: a nurse practitioner, a mom of four. We're talking about
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  Speaker 1: her recent study where parents have been shown to be
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  Speaker 1: burnt out primarily because of all the chaos during COVID,
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  Speaker 1: but even without that, Kate, these other predictors, these other
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  Speaker 1: things that highlight that parents are going to be at
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: risk of experiencing this parental burnout, this overwhelmed, this sense
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  Speaker 1: of detachment from the kids, the feeling that it's all
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  Speaker 1: too much. You also mentioned having their own mental health
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  Speaker 1: challenges and baggage. That's going to be a big predictor.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know that we need to unpack that a
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  Speaker 1: whole lot, but can we just talk about the additional
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: needs of their children. How much does that play a part?
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  Speaker 1: How predictive of burnout is that for parents?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know exactly if this is answering your question,
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  Speaker 3: but another really interesting thing that we found in the
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  Speaker 3: study was that parents that associated it, So parents that
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: had higher rates of burnout reported that their child and
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: their children had higher rates of certain behaviors. So specifically
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  Speaker 3: we looked at externalizing, internalizing, and attention behaviors and just
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: to quickly give you a real quick recap on what
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: those would look like. So attention behaviors would be like
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  Speaker 3: trouble concentrating, internalizing behaviors would be things like worrying or
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: feeling sad, and then externalizing behaviors would be acting out,
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  Speaker 3: fighting with other kids, breaking the rules, you know. So
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  Speaker 3: we found and it was associated parents that had higher
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  Speaker 3: rates of burnout also reported these types of behaviors and
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  Speaker 3: their children. So there's definitely a reflection of how the
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  Speaker 3: parent is feeling, and that's trickling down to the children.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I reckon, that have to do this reciprocal relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Right when the kids are behaving in those challenging ways
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  Speaker 1: or showing up with these these difficult behaviors, then parents
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  Speaker 1: are going to feel overwhelmed and brd out. But similarly,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: when parents are feeling overwhelmed and burn out, when they're
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: feeling detached, they're more likely to elicit from the child
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  Speaker 1: those kinds of behaviors in an attempt to connect the kids,
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  Speaker 1: like hang on, where's my mom gone, where's my dad gone?
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  Speaker 1: I want I want to feel loved and safe, So
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: I can see how that would work. All right, So
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  Speaker 1: let's because time is going to get away from us
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and we've got to talk about some solutions here if
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: families are experiencing overwhelmed, burnout, detachment, if they're going through
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  Speaker 1: these kinds of things that maybe or may not be
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: related to COVID. I mean it's a reality that families
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: go through this regardless of whether this global.
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  Speaker 2: Pandemic or not. What can they do?
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  Speaker 1: What's your research shown, what solutions, strategies and supports are
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: there for families.
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  Speaker 3: So I think the biggest thing is first of all,
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  Speaker 3: identifying that it's burnout, making sure it's not something else
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  Speaker 3: like depression or anxiety. You know, really identifying that it's burnout.
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  Speaker 3: And there is a scale that you can use that
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  Speaker 3: we developed to actually rate yourself and it kind of
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  Speaker 3: tells you, you know, how extreme your burnout is too.
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  Speaker 3: It's called the working Parent Burnout Scale. And then so
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: depending on where you are on that continuum, it really
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: depends on what you're going to do. Right, So if
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: you're kind of in that mild range, it's really about prevention.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: So continuing to you know, do the things that you're doing. Obviously,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: practicing self care is going to be a huge thing.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: Making sure you're getting enough sleep. I know I say
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: that to parents and some parents are like, how am
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: I going to get sleep like my kids are sick?
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: I have an infinema all night. You know, do what
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  Speaker 3: you can get outside, you know, exercise, you can do
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  Speaker 3: those things with your kids most of the time, and
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: just control the things you can, like your diet. You know,
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  Speaker 3: all of those things are going to you know, improve
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: and help with the self care. Connecting with other parents
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: who are in similar situations, who have similar kids. If
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: you know a kid has a diagnosis, it's always helpful
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: to talk to another parent who might have a child
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: with that situation too. So that connection piece is also huge.
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  Speaker 3: When you start getting up more into like the moderate
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: burnout phase, this is really where it needs to be
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  Speaker 3: more individualized. So it's not going to look the same
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: for everybody. So really it's about increasing your resources and
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: decreasing your stressors. So again, this isn't going to look
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: the same for everyone. But let's say take somebody like myself.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: Elementary age children were starting to get into a lot
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: of activities. An example of decreasing my stress maybe is
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: to not do so many after school activities. But if
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: I am maybe an increased you know, resource would be
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: carpooling more, you know, so the burden isn't always on
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  Speaker 3: me to get everyone everywhere, So really kind of looking
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: at that, and I like to mention this because I
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: think it's really important that we all have to understand
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: there might be days where you're feeling burned out, there
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: might be moments when you're feeling burned out, but to
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  Speaker 3: just remember that it's not always going to be like that.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: It's not always going to be so hard. So just
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: trying to take in the moment, say this is really hard,
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: but it's not always going to be this way. And
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: when you start getting into more of that severe category
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: and even sometimes in the moderate category, that's when it's
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: really important to seek help. So talking with a mental
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: health care provider or a primary care provider, reaching out
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: and letting others know that you know you're struggling and
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: that you need help and there's no shame in asking
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: for that. I think it's so hard for parents with
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: burnout because it is shaming. You know, we all love
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  Speaker 3: our kids and everything, but it's it's shaming to parents
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  Speaker 3: to think that they can get burned out in this role.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: And so I think it's something we just need to
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: be talking about more and you know, normalizing in a way,
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: because that's really where we can start moving the needle
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: on a lot of things that need to be done
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: at systems levels too.
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  Speaker 1: All Right, So a lot of people are going to
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: say yeah, yeah, yeah, but I don't want to make
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: these changes. I'm really happy with what we're trying to
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: do and the stuff that we're doing is good.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: I've just got to figure out a way to juggle
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  Speaker 2: it all. What do you say to that, I.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Mean, it is I mean, it's a great question. And
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: I think that one thing that I got really good
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: at through all of this was learning to say no
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: and learning my own limitations, and that's how I feel
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: like I've been able to maintain And I think that
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: you know, we emphasize all these things, this child development,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: you know, all of that, but really when it comes
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: down to it too, like kids need to play, you know,
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: they need that time too where they're in these unstructured activities,
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: and that's where a lot of that brain development and
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: those things occur too, you know. So I think keeping
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: that in mind, and you know, if you are somebody
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: that's feeling burned out, and I don't know that I'm
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: going to be you know, the most popular person for
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: saying this. But you know, if you're continuing to feel
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: that burnout and you're continuing to do the same things,
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: you're going to continue to get the same results. So
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: you have to do something different. You have to make
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: a change if you want different results. And so you
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: know that's where it is very individualized kind of looking
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: at you know what's going on in your life, and
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: again you know, what are your stressors, what are your resources,
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: and really evaluating and making that call, and it's going
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: to look different for everyone.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Some straight shooting from doctor Kate Golick from the Ohio
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: State University College of Nursing. Kate, thanks so much for
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: sharing your research findings with us. We will link to
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: the full report in our show notes as well as
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: the burnout scale so parents can do a self assessment
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and work out where they're landing here and whether they
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: might need to take some kind of action to reduce
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: the stress, pressure and overwhelm in their lives.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Great talking to you, Thank you so much.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Craig Bruce is our executive producer and if you'd like.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: More information about overcoming burnout, and making your family happy.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Please check out our Happy Families memberships. All the info
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: is at happy families dot com, dot A you