Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Mini: Student to Teacher Ratio

Transcript

Mini: Student to Teacher Ratio · Why We Do What We Do

0:03
Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
0:16
Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. Many I'm your
0:18
Speaker 1: host Abraham, and I'm your Shane. We are a psychology podcast.
0:23
Speaker 1: We talk about all of the things that people and
0:25
Speaker 1: animals do. And this is a short form version of
0:29
Speaker 1: what is typically a full length podcast. We released these
0:31
Speaker 1: Little Guys on Mondays and we put out the full
0:34
Speaker 1: length Behemoths on Wednesdays, So that's what we're doing today
0:37
Speaker 1: is a short one. And we're talking about people who
0:40
Speaker 1: teach other people and who are taught by other people.
0:42
Speaker 2: Yes, we are.
0:43
Speaker 3: So I know that I grew up in a time
0:46
Speaker 3: where and I mean, I guess you grew up at
0:48
Speaker 3: the same time, but maybe this wasn't as on your radar.
0:51
Speaker 3: But like, I feel like I heard so much about
0:53
Speaker 3: classroom size growing up, Like I heard people talking about
0:57
Speaker 3: this all the time, Okay, And maybe that was just
1:00
Speaker 3: a big push in Florida, And that might also have
1:02
Speaker 3: been because I was in a portable.
1:03
Speaker 2: For most of my elementary school years.
1:05
Speaker 3: So but I think, yeah, this is this is a
1:07
Speaker 3: topic that I am surprised that we haven't talked about sooner.
1:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am as well.
1:12
Speaker 1: I believe that it's come up peripherally a few times
1:15
Speaker 1: and this will actually proceed a conversation that it will
1:18
Speaker 1: be very relevant too that comes out in our full
1:20
Speaker 1: length episode this week. And when we say classroom size,
1:23
Speaker 1: we're not talking about like the physical like footprint of
1:26
Speaker 1: the room that students are in. We're talking about the
1:29
Speaker 1: ratio of students to teachers. Sure, so I want to
1:32
Speaker 1: dive into that first. I'm just going to tell you,
1:34
Speaker 1: if you're joining us for the first time, thank you
1:36
Speaker 1: so much for being here. If you like what you hear,
1:38
Speaker 1: you can support us by joining us on Patreon, leave
1:41
Speaker 1: us a rating and a review, like subscribe, tell a friend,
1:44
Speaker 1: do all the stuff that you do when you're listening
1:45
Speaker 1: to things of this nature. All right, now, let's talk
1:48
Speaker 1: about this topic at hand here, education and classroom size,
1:53
Speaker 1: resource allocation stuff.
1:55
Speaker 2: Yes, so education is resource intensive.
1:58
Speaker 3: So basically what we're saying is it requires a lot
2:00
Speaker 3: of people out of time, space and materials.
2:03
Speaker 2: In the US, in twenty twenty four.
2:04
Speaker 3: Alone, the budget was eight hundred and seventy eight point
2:07
Speaker 3: two billion dollars a lot for education, which is quite
2:13
Speaker 3: a bit of money. And this money is generally regarded
2:15
Speaker 3: as an investment, we spend money on education now so
2:18
Speaker 3: that students grow up ready to participate in society. And
2:21
Speaker 3: let's not dance around it, they grew up to work
2:23
Speaker 3: in the workforce.
2:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, eight hundred and seventy eight point two billion is
2:27
Speaker 1: eight hundred and seventy eight point two billion more than
2:29
Speaker 1: I have. That's like a crisy amount of money. Yeah,
2:34
Speaker 1: it's absurd, and so it's serious, like and with the
2:36
Speaker 1: seriousness of the stakes for this investment, school administrators and
2:40
Speaker 1: policymakers are sort of put in a position where they
2:43
Speaker 1: need to make decisions regarding resource allocation for essentially optimum
2:48
Speaker 1: efficiency and optimum outcomes like those are essentially what they're
2:52
Speaker 1: trying to weigh here. And one of the decisions around
2:55
Speaker 1: how this money is allocated is staffing, which is to say,
2:58
Speaker 1: how many people they have sort of working in these systems,
3:01
Speaker 1: and specifically how many students to how many teachers in
3:05
Speaker 1: a given classroom. Usually it's one teacher. Sometimes there's some
3:09
Speaker 1: paras or some aids, but usually it's one teacher and
3:12
Speaker 1: then the rest is students.
3:14
Speaker 3: Presumably, if our greatest concern was how much or how
3:17
Speaker 3: little we spend depended solely on efficiency and there were
3:21
Speaker 3: no concerns about achievement. We would find the absolute best
3:23
Speaker 3: teacher and put every kid in the school in one
3:26
Speaker 3: classroom with that superstar teacher. So why not do that?
3:29
Speaker 3: Why can't we do that well? Because it is the
3:33
Speaker 3: job that is required of the teacher, right. We wouldn't
3:35
Speaker 3: ask a dentist to work on twenty five people at
3:37
Speaker 3: once because their job means that they have to have
3:40
Speaker 3: their entire attention focused on one person at a time.
3:43
Speaker 3: And although teachers don't necessarily need to have it focused
3:46
Speaker 3: down that far, although arguably they do. Teachers may have
3:49
Speaker 3: upwards of like fifty students in their classroom in some instances,
3:53
Speaker 3: But the job of the teacher is not just to
3:56
Speaker 3: talk and have people listen. If that's all that teaching was,
4:00
Speaker 3: if that worked, like, if that was an effective way
4:02
Speaker 3: to teach, then we just record every lecture that anyone
4:05
Speaker 3: would ever need, is like a series of audiobooks or
4:07
Speaker 3: podcasts or something, and have everyone just listen to them
4:10
Speaker 3: at home, and man, that would really save the budget.
4:13
Speaker 3: We get one person who's awesome to do it one time,
4:16
Speaker 3: and then they people just listen to them whenever they're
4:19
Speaker 3: supposed to listen to them or whatever. Very very inexpensive
4:22
Speaker 3: to do it that way. The problem is that doesn't
4:24
Speaker 3: work very well. It's not effective. We understand this even
4:28
Speaker 3: as a podcast. To have endeavored to essentially do that
4:32
Speaker 3: that we just talk at people with no opportunity for
4:34
Speaker 3: them to engage or return in the conversation. That's just
4:37
Speaker 3: not the job of the teacher. The job is to
4:40
Speaker 3: engage students in the curriculum because that is how they learn. Like,
4:44
Speaker 3: we don't have a choice here. We don't get to
4:46
Speaker 3: just make a decision about how they're going to learn.
4:48
Speaker 3: There is a way to do this that works better
4:49
Speaker 3: than others, and they need to be engaged, and that
4:52
Speaker 3: means giving them an opportunity to ask questions, try things,
4:56
Speaker 3: participate in this discussion, complete work assignments, et ceter which
5:00
Speaker 3: requires that there is like a person standing there managing
5:04
Speaker 3: that system. Right not to mention, the teacher has to
5:07
Speaker 3: create all the work, and so the ratio of students
5:09
Speaker 3: the teachers must be carefully balanced. What is the ideal
5:12
Speaker 3: classroom size according to research and why? Well different than
5:16
Speaker 3: what we normally do. We started with and are going
5:18
Speaker 3: to start with the why first and then get into
5:21
Speaker 3: kind of the nuts and bolts of what the research
5:23
Speaker 3: says about classroom size.
5:25
Speaker 1: Because there's a lot of content here. I want to
5:27
Speaker 1: go efficiently through this, if you will. But let's start
5:31
Speaker 1: with the fact that we're essentially trying to get the
5:33
Speaker 1: most out of our educational investments. We put a lot
5:36
Speaker 1: of money into the system. We want to have ideal outcomes, right,
5:39
Speaker 1: and this means that education needs to be done as
5:42
Speaker 1: effectively as possible, so that is worth the investment that
5:45
Speaker 1: we're putting into this. And so to do this, there
5:48
Speaker 1: needs to be high classroom engagement, individualized attention, and rapid feedback,
5:53
Speaker 1: as those are essentially the effective ingredients and the recipe
5:57
Speaker 1: of good education and instruction right.
6:00
Speaker 3: And there are simply more opportunities for classroom engagement when
6:03
Speaker 3: there are enough students, the teacher can create engagement opportunities
6:06
Speaker 3: for everyone. It's the same basic reason traffic is not
6:09
Speaker 3: congested when there are only a few cars on the road.
6:11
Speaker 3: In smaller groups, there is more available for everyone to
6:14
Speaker 3: do right.
6:15
Speaker 1: This also means that the teacher can more readily provide
6:18
Speaker 1: individualized attention to each student. And this really does come
6:21
Speaker 1: down to simple math. Unlike the economy. This is simple math.
6:24
Speaker 1: There is a finite amount of time in a class period.
6:28
Speaker 1: Divide that by the number of students. If you have
6:30
Speaker 1: sixty kids in a classroom, the teacher could at most
6:33
Speaker 1: give each student one minute of attention across an hour.
6:37
Speaker 1: And we know that they're not going to do that
6:39
Speaker 1: because that wouldn't that would not make very much sense
6:42
Speaker 1: in that space. If there are five students, they could
6:44
Speaker 1: get up to twelve minutes of individualized attention in a
6:48
Speaker 1: single hour, and of course one student would get all
6:50
Speaker 1: sixty minutes of that teacher's attention an hour. So you
6:53
Speaker 1: just got to think about how much time there is
6:55
Speaker 1: available to even individually interact with students in that given space,
7:00
Speaker 1: based on how many students there are to how many
7:02
Speaker 1: teachers there are, which again is usually one right now.
7:05
Speaker 3: Further, the less a teacher's time is being stretched, the
7:08
Speaker 3: more likely they can give timely feedback. The sooner the
7:11
Speaker 3: feedback occurs in relation to the student's performance, the more
7:14
Speaker 3: effective that feedback will be. And just as a quick
7:16
Speaker 3: citation for that, if you're wondering where that research comes from,
7:19
Speaker 3: all of the literature ever published on feedback and all
7:22
Speaker 3: of the animal studies on reinforcement demonstrate this. It's effectively,
7:26
Speaker 3: as we were kind of talking about this before we
7:27
Speaker 3: started recording, it's effectively a law. At this point in time,
7:31
Speaker 3: we know that timely feedback will result in better performance. Yeah,
7:34
Speaker 3: and the fewer students there are, the more quickly a
7:36
Speaker 3: teacher can give timely feedback exactly.
7:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just easier to do that when you don't
7:41
Speaker 1: have to when you don't have to wait, and you
7:43
Speaker 1: can you can give it right away as soon as
7:45
Speaker 1: performance occurs. Right now, as we'll see in reviewing the research,
7:49
Speaker 1: increased classroom engagement, individualized attention, and immediate feedback are just
7:53
Speaker 1: their key to leveling the playing field for students. And
7:56
Speaker 1: what I mean by that is when everybody has appropriate
8:00
Speaker 1: and sufficient opportunities for success, it rapidly closes the achievement
8:05
Speaker 1: gap where you have some really high performers and some
8:07
Speaker 1: really low performers. And there's been research to specifically show
8:11
Speaker 1: how that can be the case right now.
8:14
Speaker 3: Other outcomes of the system include improved communication skills, student performance,
8:17
Speaker 3: and teacher satisfaction. But one of the outcomes that doesn't
8:20
Speaker 3: get often mentioned is the fact that people go into
8:23
Speaker 3: marketing and they create ads.
8:31
Speaker 1: Okay, we're back, And if that was done by a
8:34
Speaker 1: student who got that from being in a smaller classroom size,
8:37
Speaker 1: then I might go back on my position here and
8:40
Speaker 1: say that we don't want that outcome. All right, let's
8:44
Speaker 1: dig into some of the research here. So Achilles twenty
8:47
Speaker 1: twelve was a study that summarized twenty five years of
8:50
Speaker 1: research on class size from a variety of places. They
8:53
Speaker 1: got research from the United States, Sweden, Hong Kong, Australia,
8:59
Speaker 1: Great Britain, and elsewhere and essentially found across the board
9:03
Speaker 1: that smaller classroom sizes and they gave fifteen to seventeen
9:06
Speaker 1: students is sort of the criteria they used for that
9:08
Speaker 1: they had great outcomes both in the short and long term.
9:12
Speaker 1: But particularly notable they found that the lowest performing students
9:17
Speaker 1: were the ones who had the greatest benefits from here.
9:21
Speaker 1: These were the students who were They became less likely
9:23
Speaker 1: to drop out, more likely to maintain their grades, and
9:26
Speaker 1: had better test performances. And that's sort of that what
9:28
Speaker 1: I meant when I was talking about closing the achievement
9:31
Speaker 1: gap is that is that the difference between the highest
9:34
Speaker 1: and lowest performers shrinks. And it makes kind of sense
9:37
Speaker 1: a lot of sense too, because it's like high performers
9:40
Speaker 1: are already sort of performing at their maximum output, so
9:43
Speaker 1: it's not like they could get a lot better than
9:45
Speaker 1: doing really really really good, like the best they could
9:48
Speaker 1: possibly be doing. But the students who are really falling
9:51
Speaker 1: behind for a variety of reasons, whatever they may be, like,
9:54
Speaker 1: they have a lot of room to grow. So like,
9:57
Speaker 1: just having improvements mostly means that you going to get
10:00
Speaker 1: improvements with the people who have room to make those improvements.
10:02
Speaker 1: But what's cool about this is it was specifically the
10:05
Speaker 1: lowest performers who had the best improvements, which is fantastic.
10:10
Speaker 1: Like that means it really does work for everyone.
10:12
Speaker 2: Right.
10:13
Speaker 3: Blackford at All in twenty eleven observed classrooms from forty
10:16
Speaker 3: nine schools and reported that smaller classrooms had higher levels
10:19
Speaker 3: of individualized attention. They also reported that larger classrooms had
10:23
Speaker 3: larger performance gaps in student achievement.
10:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, so specifically sort of showing not only do you
10:28
Speaker 1: have you close the gap in smaller classroom ratios, but
10:32
Speaker 1: you increase the gap in larger ratios.
10:35
Speaker 2: Right.
10:35
Speaker 1: Another study by d and colleagues in twenty eleven found
10:38
Speaker 1: that smaller class sizes also led to improved focus and
10:43
Speaker 1: higher engagement in those classrooms, and some other studies have
10:46
Speaker 1: found there's some other really important benefits that you get
10:49
Speaker 1: from this outside of the ones that we already mentioned,
10:52
Speaker 1: which is that you get fewer discipline referrals when you.
10:55
Speaker 2: Have these smaller settings.
10:56
Speaker 1: There's fewer opportunities in the much more they're much less
10:59
Speaker 1: likely to in gage and behaviors that would then result
11:02
Speaker 1: in disciplinary actions such as office referrals and detention in
11:05
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And teachers also tend to get
11:08
Speaker 1: through the curriculum and their materials faster, meaning that they're
11:11
Speaker 1: a lot more efficient in their teaching. And so there's
11:13
Speaker 1: sort of that adage that goes something I'm gonna mess
11:16
Speaker 1: it up, but it goes something like, there's fast, cheap,
11:19
Speaker 1: or well done. You can have one or maybe two
11:22
Speaker 1: of the three smaller teacher to student at ratios are
11:25
Speaker 1: fast and well done. And that's where people have a
11:28
Speaker 1: problem with it. It's because they are not cheap. But
11:32
Speaker 1: the alternative that we get right now is that people
11:35
Speaker 1: are trying to get fast, they're not even or they're
11:38
Speaker 1: actually they're trying to get cheap and we're not even
11:40
Speaker 1: getting fast. We're basically sacrificing well done and fast in
11:44
Speaker 1: the service of cheap. And so you could have cheap
11:47
Speaker 1: and well done but it's slow. You could have fast
11:50
Speaker 1: and cheap but it's not well done. Or you can
11:52
Speaker 1: apparently have just cheap and it's neither fast nor well done.
11:56
Speaker 1: But when we have these smaller classroom sizes, you do
11:58
Speaker 1: at least get fast and well done.
12:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would be curious to look at data and
12:03
Speaker 3: numbers based on like cheap cheap education, right, and looking
12:07
Speaker 3: at long term outcomes on like having to re educate people,
12:11
Speaker 3: or how to get additional training or additional education, or
12:14
Speaker 3: the cost of like the workforce and like adequate you
12:17
Speaker 3: know what I would be interested in kind of those
12:19
Speaker 3: outcomes and how much it costs to have those outcomes
12:22
Speaker 3: as a result of cheap education. I mean, like I
12:24
Speaker 3: always think of like when I think of like when
12:27
Speaker 3: people talk about cost, I always think of the nurture effect,
12:29
Speaker 3: and I think about how people talk about cost and
12:32
Speaker 3: how the upfront cost might be too much, but the
12:34
Speaker 3: long term outcomes are way worse.
12:36
Speaker 1: Right, It's possible. There is some research on that, And
12:39
Speaker 1: I didn't think to dig it up. When I was
12:41
Speaker 1: preparing for this, I think that's a great question. I
12:43
Speaker 1: completely agree that that is a really interesting question. But yeah,
12:46
Speaker 1: that return on investment is huge. It's like when we
12:49
Speaker 1: treat these types of programs as investments and then we
12:52
Speaker 1: look at what are we saving down the road, the
12:55
Speaker 1: savings are astronomical. Right, We're saving so much more than
12:58
Speaker 1: we're than the amount that we would have to spend
13:00
Speaker 1: later by fixing a problem by not addressing it appropriately
13:03
Speaker 1: the first time is so much more than it would
13:06
Speaker 1: cost us to just do it right in the first place.
13:09
Speaker 2: Right exactly.
13:10
Speaker 3: There are literally dozens of studies showing various versions of
13:13
Speaker 3: these outcomes, but one question is how small should these
13:16
Speaker 3: classrooms be. It turns out the smaller the better. Bone
13:19
Speaker 3: and All in twenty seventeen showed that there are barely
13:22
Speaker 3: any improvements until the ratio of students teachers is down
13:26
Speaker 3: to about fifteen to one, at which point there is
13:28
Speaker 3: about a point ten standard deviation increase for every student
13:32
Speaker 3: less than fifteen. Once the ratio is down to seven
13:35
Speaker 3: point five to one, the effect which you know, by
13:38
Speaker 3: the way, I don't know how hard it is having
13:39
Speaker 3: half a student in a class. But once you have
13:41
Speaker 3: a half student class, that might make it. That might
13:43
Speaker 3: that's going to introduce some different variables, but the effects
13:46
Speaker 3: increases to zero point twenty two standard deviations. Almost certainly,
13:50
Speaker 3: the best possible outcomes are from one to one settings. However,
13:53
Speaker 3: this is not feasible for a large variety of obvious reasons.
13:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so what we mean by the standard deviations
13:59
Speaker 1: here is essentially that for every student less than fifteen
14:03
Speaker 1: you have in your classroom, you get improvements, like noticeable improvements.
14:08
Speaker 1: And then that's what that center deviation is. Once you
14:11
Speaker 1: get down to seven and a half on average and
14:14
Speaker 1: not have a student let's just say seven. Once you
14:16
Speaker 1: get down to about seven to one, then the improvements
14:20
Speaker 1: for every student less than that are much greater.
14:23
Speaker 2: So, like you go like an.
14:24
Speaker 1: Improvement from fifteen to fourteen students and fourteen to thirteen
14:28
Speaker 1: students are about the same. Like, and what I mean
14:31
Speaker 1: by that is like, if you get like a five
14:34
Speaker 1: percent improvement on test scores when you go down from
14:37
Speaker 1: fifteen to fourteen students, you should expect another five percent
14:39
Speaker 1: improvement when you go down from fourteen to thirteen. But
14:42
Speaker 1: when you get down to seven students. If you go
14:44
Speaker 1: down from like seven to six, you're now seeing like
14:47
Speaker 1: a fifteen to twenty percent increase on outcomes, and then
14:50
Speaker 1: from six to five it's another fifteen to twenty percent
14:53
Speaker 1: increase in outcomes. And so essentially, the fewer students there
14:56
Speaker 1: are to teachers, the better the outcomes are. But it's
14:58
Speaker 1: not linear. It actually is kind of logarithmic. Right the
15:01
Speaker 1: ones you get into really small numbers and the benefits
15:03
Speaker 1: start to jump much faster. So that's that's essentially I
15:06
Speaker 1: think how to think about that right now. I did
15:10
Speaker 1: find some studies that suggested that smaller classroom ratios don't
15:13
Speaker 1: work if students, like if they try and implement that
15:17
Speaker 1: protocol later on in a student's career, like around high school,
15:20
Speaker 1: like if they've had large classrooms up until high school.
15:23
Speaker 1: They essentially argue that that's not going to make a
15:25
Speaker 1: very big difference. But as long as it was in
15:27
Speaker 1: elementary school or maybe as late as middle school, then
15:29
Speaker 1: moving on from that going on to small classrooms would
15:32
Speaker 1: be fine, but it has to be early on. Essentially
15:35
Speaker 1: they argue that that once they get used to that,
15:37
Speaker 1: they just won't they won't benefit from going back this
15:40
Speaker 1: argument is very weird to me, Like it feels almost
15:43
Speaker 1: like a non sequitor because the issues that are raised
15:48
Speaker 1: with larger classrooms aren't question, Like they're not issues of momentum.
15:52
Speaker 1: It's not like we need to start them small so
15:55
Speaker 1: that they can like thrive in that system. It's it's
15:59
Speaker 1: just like practice to go math problems. As I said,
16:01
Speaker 1: Like there's only so much time in an hour divided
16:04
Speaker 1: amongst how many students, So it feels like they're raising
16:08
Speaker 1: a point with an agenda, like it doesn't actually make sense.
16:11
Speaker 1: Like you can kind of logically hear it and be like, oh, okay,
16:13
Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, but you really stop and
16:16
Speaker 1: think about it. It was like, no, that is pretty stupid.
16:19
Speaker 1: I think that's wrong because like it just doesn't it
16:21
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense with respect to the other benefits.
16:24
Speaker 1: It's not like those benefits depended on them having had
16:27
Speaker 1: experience with that already. Those benefits just are what they are,
16:31
Speaker 1: Like it is just the case that you have more
16:33
Speaker 1: opportunities for engagement when there are fewer students to a teacher,
16:36
Speaker 1: it just is yeah, like that doesn't change with the
16:38
Speaker 1: fact that like it hasn't happened in the past, So
16:41
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I buy it, but they report what
16:43
Speaker 1: they report, so I guess we'll share it. But I
16:44
Speaker 1: am I am skeptical of their argument.
16:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like an old dog, new trick argument.
16:50
Speaker 3: But ultimately, like we know that that's not true too, right,
16:53
Speaker 3: Like it's just it's anyway, that's it's a weird that
16:57
Speaker 3: You're right, that is a weird argument. But if we
16:59
Speaker 3: can we classrooms down to about seven students per teacher
17:02
Speaker 3: or even fifteen per teacher, regularly, every aspect of the
17:05
Speaker 3: education system starts to improve. Less disciplinary action, fewer dropouts,
17:09
Speaker 3: higher achievement, less outcome disparity, more efficient instruction, higher teacher satisfaction,
17:14
Speaker 3: and all of the other good things. It just it's
17:17
Speaker 3: improvements across the board.
17:19
Speaker 1: Yes, so we're trying to be a mini so we're
17:22
Speaker 1: going to be trying to wrap this up here. But
17:25
Speaker 1: to end on this, I think you've really got to
17:27
Speaker 1: think if we as a society we're willing to make
17:30
Speaker 1: the commitment of billions of dollars to the system, then
17:33
Speaker 1: we're in it for the long haul, right, We're committed
17:36
Speaker 1: essentially to the best possible outcomes of what we're trying
17:39
Speaker 1: to do with this, and of course I think you
17:42
Speaker 1: can hear the argument and it's reasonable that like poor curriculum,
17:45
Speaker 1: bad teachers, getting rid of books, Florida will still yield
17:49
Speaker 1: poor outcomes even when you have those lower student to
17:52
Speaker 1: teacher ratios. But in general we will see improvements and
17:56
Speaker 1: educational outcomes by investing and lower students teacher ratios in general. Yes,
18:02
Speaker 1: so I think what do you do with that? As
18:04
Speaker 1: a listener, I don't know, advocate for this if you
18:08
Speaker 1: like participate, if you're on a school board, or you
18:10
Speaker 1: go to those types of meetings, or you're electing your
18:13
Speaker 1: officials who make these types of decisions and this is
18:16
Speaker 1: important to you, then I would consider looking at those
18:18
Speaker 1: aspects of the policies that people are proposing to consider
18:22
Speaker 1: how you then throw what you throw your support behind.
18:25
Speaker 3: And don't let Moms for Liberty make policy, Like that's
18:28
Speaker 3: a big thing that you can do right now.
18:30
Speaker 1: Have them go hunt cthulhus out in the Pacific Ocean,
18:34
Speaker 1: that's where they belong to.
18:35
Speaker 2: Yes, I like that. I like that a lot.
18:37
Speaker 1: Okay, well that was very long for a many Hopefully
18:40
Speaker 1: you got something out of this. Thank you so much
18:42
Speaker 1: for recording with me today, Shane. If all of you
18:44
Speaker 1: listening would like to tell us your thoughts on classroom side,
18:48
Speaker 1: you can email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
18:52
Speaker 1: We're also on the social media platforms, including on a
18:55
Speaker 1: Blue Sky. We do appreciate hearing from everyone. You can
18:58
Speaker 1: get some extra benefits by joining our club of cool
19:00
Speaker 1: People over on Patreon. I will read your name on
19:03
Speaker 1: our at the end of our longer episodes. If you
19:05
Speaker 1: do that, you also get add free episodes, bonus content,
19:09
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Otherwise, if you can't do that,
19:11
Speaker 1: then you can support us by telling a friend, and
19:12
Speaker 1: of course writing a review or leaving us a nice
19:15
Speaker 1: five stars can help as well. And we just appreciate
19:17
Speaker 1: anything you're willing to do, and I also just appreciate
19:19
Speaker 1: you being here. Yes, but I think that's all we
19:21
Speaker 1: have to say. Is there anything you'd like to add
19:23
Speaker 1: or anything I forgot before we wrap this up today? Shane, Nope,
19:25
Speaker 1: I got nothing, all right, Thank you again. Why We
19:28
Speaker 1: Do what we Do Mini is out, so yep, you've
19:31
Speaker 1: been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
19:33
Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
19:36
Speaker 3: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we
19:41
Speaker 3: hope you have an awesome day bowing