Latest / On Deathcare / Pablo Metz on Bringing Terramation to Individual Funeral Homes

Transcript

Pablo Metz on Bringing Terramation to Individual Funeral Homes · On Deathcare

0:05
Hi,
0:05
I am Tony Russo from OnDeathCare,
0:08
and I cannot wait to get this conversation started.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: The guest this time is Pablo Metz.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: He is one of the founders of Mina Erde, which makes teramation vessels.
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SPEAKER_01: Famously or famously among those who follow these kinds of things,
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SPEAKER_01: they have gotten into a partnership with Greenwood.
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SPEAKER_01: But as you'll hear in this conversation,
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they're hoping that as more and more states embrace the idea of
0:38
terramation,
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SPEAKER_01: that this is a solution for them.
0:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not...
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Crazy expensive to get into and it is as sustainable as anybody
0:50
can hope.
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SPEAKER_01: So anyway,
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I'm just going to get right into it with him and I will catch
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you on the other side
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SPEAKER_01: with a couple of show notes.
0:57
So we're starting kind of in the middle of the conversation
0:59
here because things
1:00
SPEAKER_01: were getting out of control in the pre-interview.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for being such an enthusiastic guest.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Let's start by talking about how you got to where you are.
1:13
SPEAKER_01: So you came up in tech and you're kind of a tech guy from the beginning.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
1:18
SPEAKER_01: And if so, if not, tell me why not.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: And if so, how did you move into the green funeral business?
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SPEAKER_00: Honestly, my previous company was a tech company.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
1:29
SPEAKER_00: But I'm definitely more of, I mean, I'm an entrepreneur.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm a problem solver.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm trying to look for problems and try to find a solution.
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So,
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yes,
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one of my previous companies was a tech company,
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a software company.
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But actually,
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my first company,
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for example,
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was for a children's safety product.
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So definitely at the other end of life,
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of the life cycle,
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as I'm working in now.
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SPEAKER_00: And when I left my last company,
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SPEAKER_00: I was sitting down with my family and my kids,
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SPEAKER_00: and my kids said,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: why don't you do something good for a change?
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: And we're asking,
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SPEAKER_00: is that like,
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SPEAKER_00: should I be offended or is it actually something really cool to say?
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SPEAKER_00: And when you talk to that younger generation,
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SPEAKER_00: for them,
2:14
SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: the climate crisis is one of their biggest problems in their lives.
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So tackling that problem always means you have to substitute a
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fossil fuel heavy
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SPEAKER_00: process with an alternative.
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SPEAKER_00: So that was actually the task given to me by my kids.
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SPEAKER_00: And a couple of weeks later, I talked to my grandma and she was
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SPEAKER_00: 96 at the time.
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And we talked about her death and how she wanted to be buried
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and what kind of
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SPEAKER_00: ceremony she was looking for.
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SPEAKER_00: And then she explained to me,
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SPEAKER_00: and I never thought about it before,
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SPEAKER_00: that there are only two options available.
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SPEAKER_00: At least in Germany, there's only the traditional burial and cremation.
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SPEAKER_00: And she said both of them
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SPEAKER_00: don't really fit to her.
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So we sat down and thought,
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okay,
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what is it actually that you're looking for?
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SPEAKER_00: And she said,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm looking for something more optimistic,
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SPEAKER_00: something where I can stay in that circle of life,
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where I'll still be around for you guys and you can memorize me
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in a positive way.
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And that's when we dove into it and said,
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okay,
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what does that actually mean?
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SPEAKER_00: What happens to life after death?
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SPEAKER_00: And all organic matter returns to soil.
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SPEAKER_00: And all the soil that we got used to be organic life.
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SPEAKER_00: And we started discussing that.
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And that's how we started and got into what we in Germany call
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Reerdigung and what
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SPEAKER_00: you guys over here call Terramation.
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SPEAKER_00: That's fantastic.
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SPEAKER_00: And...
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SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry.
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SPEAKER_01: Just and also just to make sure that we're all talking.
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SPEAKER_01: I have a good friend of mine is from Germany.
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And one of his concerns is whether he's going to go back and
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and get his parents
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SPEAKER_01: out or if because because they're in a rented they're in a rented grave,
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SPEAKER_01: which is something that is more common there than here.
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SPEAKER_00: That is actually not only common, it is the standard.
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SPEAKER_00: There are only rented plots, if you will.
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SPEAKER_00: So you have that plot for something between 15 to 40 years.
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SPEAKER_00: You can always, of course, prolong it.
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SPEAKER_00: You can have it forever, if you will.
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SPEAKER_00: But then you have to pay additional rent.
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But the standard is in Germany and other European countries
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that you use a grave
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SPEAKER_00: plot for,
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SPEAKER_00: let's say,
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SPEAKER_00: 20 years,
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SPEAKER_00: and then the next person will be buried in the same plot.
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I think that gives you a particular angle on solving the
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problem here because I
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don't think it's much different in New Jersey or in New York or
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some of these
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places where you absolutely have to be buried in a cemetery
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even if you don't want
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SPEAKER_01: to.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's correct.
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SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: so that's,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: an angle that we're looking at and the experience that we have.
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SPEAKER_00: In Germany, there is a cemetery obligation.
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SPEAKER_00: Everybody has to be buried at a cemetery, all human remains, even ashes.
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SPEAKER_00: You're not allowed to take ashes home in Germany.
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SPEAKER_00: So when we grew our company,
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SPEAKER_00: we had to grow it together with the churches,
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SPEAKER_00: the cemeteries,
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SPEAKER_00: hand in hand,
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SPEAKER_00: discussing how do we treat the new soil at the cemetery?
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SPEAKER_00: What can we do with it?
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How can we do it in the most respectful way and also make it
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work for the cemeteries?
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SPEAKER_00: And I mean,
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you know that we're now starting a project with Greenwood
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Cemetery here in New
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SPEAKER_00: York.
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And definitely the experience that we have from all those
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corporations back in
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Europe really helped in the discussions with Greenwood Cemetery
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how to really treat
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SPEAKER_00: the soil and bury the soil at a cemetery.
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You decided to get into this,
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but you have a partner and you had to get the biological tech.
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SPEAKER_01: So how did that work?
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How does you just knock on a university door and say,
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who's doing biology?
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SPEAKER_01: What's that going?
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: if you say like five years ago,
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SPEAKER_00: if you started knocking and asked if somebody knew about termation,
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SPEAKER_00: there was definitely nobody.
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SPEAKER_00: It's changing now because we are closely cooperating with universities,
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SPEAKER_00: also for the research on testing the results and all of that.
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But back in the day,
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well,
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I talked to my friend,
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Max is his name,
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Max Hush.
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SPEAKER_00: He's my co-founder now.
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SPEAKER_00: He's the tech guy.
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SPEAKER_00: He's the brain behind all the technological developments.
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SPEAKER_00: Of course,
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SPEAKER_00: we have a team now,
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a fantastic team that is developing and continues improving the
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details behind it.
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SPEAKER_00: But yeah, definitely it was max.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we sat down with a couple of experts from the composting world,
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from biology and also other technical experts and put all of
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these pieces together
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SPEAKER_00: and then started developing,
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SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: what we have now,
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SPEAKER_00: what we call our cocoon or the vessel.
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But definitely the first termination we started was basically a
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wooden box,
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SPEAKER_00: which we started aerating and turning and trying to figure out
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SPEAKER_00: How does the process work?
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SPEAKER_00: How can we influence it?
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SPEAKER_00: How can we control it?
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Well,
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needless to be said,
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the first process didn't really get the results.
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SPEAKER_01: But you eventually got there.
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And one of the really interesting parts about that is finding a
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way to tell the public.
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SPEAKER_01: Everyone who wants it, wants it.
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And everyone who doesn't want it doesn't seem to even want to
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hear about it.
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SPEAKER_01: And especially here, it can be so divisive.
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SPEAKER_01: People lose their minds immediately over terramation.
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SPEAKER_01: So how much of that public relations is built into the beginnings of it,
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SPEAKER_01: coming out and saying,
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SPEAKER_01: this is what we're doing and this is why it's safe?
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SPEAKER_00: Actually,
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my experience there is a little bit different because most of
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the people who tell
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SPEAKER_00: you that they don't like terramation don't know about terramation.
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SPEAKER_00: I really feel that for some people,
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SPEAKER_00: it still might not be their first choice,
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but you don't get that opposition anymore once they know and
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understand and also
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SPEAKER_00: see how respectful the whole process is.
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So that is the conversation we have many times that people lean
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back when you start
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SPEAKER_00: talking about,
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SPEAKER_00: look at you and think you're strange.
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SPEAKER_00: And then while you're explaining,
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SPEAKER_00: they're leaning forward,
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SPEAKER_00: they're opening up,
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SPEAKER_00: they start smiling and realizing,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
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SPEAKER_00: this is actually a very gentle,
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SPEAKER_00: very natural way to bury a person.
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Yes,
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these discussions were,
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from the beginning,
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really essential to what we're doing.
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SPEAKER_00: So while we started developing the technology,
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SPEAKER_00: one of the first things we did is we talked to,
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SPEAKER_00: let's call it moral ethical instances.
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SPEAKER_00: So people or institutions where we thought our society sees them as...
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SPEAKER_00: as moral ethical instances.
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So we talked to the churches,
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we talked to other religious groups,
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of course.
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There is an ethics council in Germany,
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so we talked to them and started this discussion.
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We went to elderly homes and talked to the people living there
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and tried to get
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SPEAKER_00: their first emotions and their ideas and built on that.
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SPEAKER_00: And only because we had written statements from all of these people,
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SPEAKER_00: from all of these institutions,
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SPEAKER_00: including then a first legal statement and,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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the results that where we could then show that we could
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actually terminate pigs and
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SPEAKER_00: humans at that time.
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SPEAKER_00: All of that together was what we needed to get started in Germany.
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But yes,
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these discussions with also the churches where we learned a lot
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was really important.
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SPEAKER_00: And you learn many things where you can build bridges.
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SPEAKER_00: So our process takes 40 days.
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SPEAKER_00: The process actually takes 40 days.
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SPEAKER_00: But realizing that 40 days is,
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SPEAKER_00: of course,
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SPEAKER_00: also not only a biblical number,
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because everything in the Bible about transformation is
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basically 40 days.
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SPEAKER_00: The fasting period is 40 days.
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SPEAKER_00: From Easter to resurrection, it's 40 days.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's also another religion.
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SPEAKER_00: So the Jews wandered 40 years through the desert.
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SPEAKER_00: A pregnancy is 40 weeks.
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SPEAKER_00: So this number is really connecting.
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SPEAKER_00: So we could use that symbolic number,
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SPEAKER_00: which incidentally is also the period that our process takes,
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SPEAKER_00: And build everything together so we could help build bridges.
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SPEAKER_00: For example,
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what we're also doing is we agreed on that we would use a
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casket to transport the
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SPEAKER_00: soil to the cemetery and to the grave.
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SPEAKER_00: So we're using the traditions,
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SPEAKER_00: the pictures that we're used to in order to make it easier also to adapt.
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SPEAKER_00: Because, I mean, let's be honest, nobody of us really wants to change.
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We have to change all the time,
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but we need to build these bridges to make it easier to adapt.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's what we try to do.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that's also why us and others have gone so far.
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SPEAKER_00: And I really say we've gone far in a very short period of time.
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SPEAKER_00: Just a clarification,
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SPEAKER_01: the casket with the remains in it,
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SPEAKER_01: does that get buried or does that get emptied?
11:02
SPEAKER_00: No,
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SPEAKER_00: so what we do in our process in Germany is we,
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SPEAKER_00: after the process,
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SPEAKER_00: when the body is transformed into soil,
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SPEAKER_00: we know with all burial methods,
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SPEAKER_00: the bones remain.
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SPEAKER_00: After cremation, they're also still there.
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SPEAKER_00: They're very brittle.
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SPEAKER_00: but also after a terramation, the bones remain.
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So we grind the bones together with the soil and then they're
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really fine and a
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SPEAKER_00: very important part of that fertile soil.
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SPEAKER_00: It belonged to us and it will belong to the soil.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we take everything and wrap it in a shroud.
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We have that shroud before the 40 days to the family so they
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can work with it.
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SPEAKER_00: They can draw on it.
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SPEAKER_00: They can design it.
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SPEAKER_00: And we've seen beautiful, beautiful shrouds where we wrap the soil in.
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SPEAKER_00: And then we take that shroud and put it in that package,
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SPEAKER_00: basically,
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SPEAKER_00: and put it in a casket for transportation.
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SPEAKER_00: Because all logistics in our field are also designed for caskets.
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SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: But once we arrived at the grave,
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SPEAKER_00: we take the shroud,
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SPEAKER_00: we bury the shroud and the soil,
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and we take the casket back for the next transportation because
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it didn't touch the
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SPEAKER_00: soil.
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SPEAKER_00: It's just like a vehicle for the transportation.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very cool.
12:15
I just knew that there was someone else besides me who heard
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you say we bring the
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SPEAKER_01: casket to the graveyard and
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: Wanted to know what happened then.
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SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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SPEAKER_01: Why do they really do that?
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SPEAKER_01: That sounds strange.
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SPEAKER_01: So now the big question is,
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SPEAKER_01: everyone I have spoken to,
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SPEAKER_01: pretty much everyone,
12:34
SPEAKER_01: and this is kind of how we got off before we started the conversation,
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SPEAKER_01: uses their propriety methods to open new funeral homes for themselves.
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SPEAKER_01: You are a manufacturer, essentially.
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SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me about how you came to that decision on
12:48
SPEAKER_01: and how that's worked for you in Germany,
12:50
SPEAKER_01: and then how you decided to try to make your way here in America as well.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Well,
12:56
SPEAKER_00: when we started looking into it,
12:58
SPEAKER_00: we quickly realized,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
13:00
SPEAKER_00: we had Max on board,
13:01
SPEAKER_00: so we had the brain on the technology,
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SPEAKER_00: and we realized,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
13:05
we could definitely develop and build the green tech to offer
13:09
that burial method.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: But we're no funeral directors.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: We've never been in that field before.
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And the task of guiding a family through that process is such
13:21
an important task
13:23
SPEAKER_00: where we thought,
13:23
SPEAKER_00: okay,
13:24
SPEAKER_00: of course we could hire somebody to do it,
13:26
SPEAKER_00: but there are experts out there.
13:29
And honestly,
13:30
it is,
13:32
if you want to put it that way,
13:33
a very local business.
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SPEAKER_00: You need somebody around who can give you a hug,
13:37
SPEAKER_00: who really guides you through that grieving and all that process.
13:43
SPEAKER_00: And we couldn't do that all over the country.
13:45
Nevertheless,
13:46
I mean,
13:47
don't even think about from Germany to the United States.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: So we thought, okay, we have all these experts.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: So let's offer them the service.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: They can use our service, but they are the ones guiding the families.
14:00
And that worked perfectly for us because now we have also
14:05
everybody advertising it
14:07
SPEAKER_00: because everybody loves it.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Everybody can use it.
14:09
The funeral homes can offer it to the families,
14:12
but they're the ones talking about it.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's not a competition.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: It's a joint effort.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
14:38
And I talk to small independent funeral home owners all about
14:42
what's working and
14:43
SPEAKER_01: what's not and why.
14:45
I also talk to vendors and people who make things and figure
14:49
out why they're making
14:50
them and whether they're working like this conversation that
14:52
I'm having right here.
14:53
So anyway,
14:54
please go to ondeathcare.com and subscribe and I will see you
14:58
over there.
14:59
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get back to it.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: Now, and so, and moving into the United States, essentially the same.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: How did you get in touch with Greenwood?
15:07
SPEAKER_01: Why?
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know why them.
15:09
SPEAKER_01: That's a dumb question.
15:12
SPEAKER_00: Everybody knows why them, because they're fantastic.
15:19
But how did,
15:20
what would,
15:20
talk about the timing maybe is what I'm getting at.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: Like,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:23
SPEAKER_01: you had a,
15:24
SPEAKER_01: one day you had to say,
15:25
SPEAKER_01: okay,
15:25
SPEAKER_01: this is time to,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: there's other opportunities that,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: that are out there for us.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: Well,
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
15:33
we're the only provider outside of the United States that on
15:39
some end is very
15:41
SPEAKER_00: comfortable.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, if you want to put it that way, you're alone.
15:46
SPEAKER_00: You have nobody to talk to.
15:47
SPEAKER_00: You have nobody to look at.
15:49
And of course,
15:50
competition is also something that is really helpful because it
15:54
makes you better.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: It also offers, it helps you to look at other offers.
15:59
SPEAKER_00: It's also good for families.
16:00
So one thing we did really quickly is we learned that there are
16:04
other providers in
16:05
SPEAKER_00: the United States and we reached out to them.
16:08
So we started talking to all of them and I think we have become
16:11
close friends with
16:12
SPEAKER_00: a couple of them already.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And what I think
16:16
SPEAKER_00: is really amazing about that whole movement is that there is,
16:20
SPEAKER_00: especially with some of them,
16:22
SPEAKER_00: really open exchange.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: So we talk regularly,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: we meet regularly,
16:27
SPEAKER_00: and really talk about technical details,
16:29
SPEAKER_00: about also the process details,
16:32
SPEAKER_00: how all of us can make it better.
16:33
SPEAKER_00: And I love that.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: If competition is like that, then I want competition all the time because
16:37
SPEAKER_00: It was fantastic.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: And they've become close friends.
16:40
And then there was the TerraCon conference in Seattle,
16:43
third time this year.
16:45
And we went there the first time and got to know everybody and
16:48
also got in touch
16:49
SPEAKER_00: with the American burial industry.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:52
And then some of them heard about us and reached out and so did
16:57
Greenwood.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And they looked at all the other providers and they decided,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: okay,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: well,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: there is another one in Europe.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: They have experience working with the cemetery.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: So actually they did reach out to us and ask us about it.
17:09
They've been to Europe a couple of times,
17:11
looked at everything,
17:12
looked at the process.
17:13
And yeah,
17:14
in the end of the day,
17:15
decided to use our technology and our services.
17:19
And we're very,
17:20
very proud and happy and glad and grateful to be their partner.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
17:26
been growing and it's a very close and uh trustful cooperation
17:31
we're starting here
17:32
SPEAKER_00: um and yeah we're of course really really excited about it that's really
17:36
interesting so they made you an international company you were
17:39
you're minding your
17:39
SPEAKER_01: own business and they're like congratulations you're international now
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
17:44
SPEAKER_00: of course,
17:45
SPEAKER_00: we've been looking at it,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
17:46
SPEAKER_00: that opportunity,
17:47
SPEAKER_00: of course,
17:49
SPEAKER_00: then came along.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: So yes, and right now I am in New York.
17:52
So we're relocating to the United States because we see a lot
17:56
of interest coming in.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: So if you're a fuel homeowner or a crematory owner,
18:02
look at circulumsystems.com and reach out because we are here
18:06
now and there are
18:08
SPEAKER_00: others who are already working with us and ask them about it as well.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: Please do.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: That is so cool.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: And so several questions.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: The first one is,
18:16
SPEAKER_01: and this is the big argument that we have amongst ourselves,
18:20
SPEAKER_01: and that is commentators who don't do any work,
18:22
SPEAKER_01: just talk about other people's work.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And what we are concerned about is how many a person,
18:29
SPEAKER_01: how many a funeral home would need to be practical and practical.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: the expense and how long it takes to pay off the expense.
18:37
So the kind of vision has been recently,
18:41
until recently anyway,
18:42
has been like a wall.
18:44
I think of Recompose is the easiest one because everyone's seen
18:46
the wall because
18:47
SPEAKER_01: that's free pictures.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: So everyone uses that picture.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: So you think you think of these walls.
18:53
SPEAKER_01: Can you describe how many if I if I do 300 families a year,
18:59
SPEAKER_01: how many vessels do you feel like is practical for me?
19:04
SPEAKER_01: And if at all, like how does that?
19:07
SPEAKER_00: 300 families in general, not only in general.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, let me tell you from our first experience.
19:14
SPEAKER_00: When we started in Germany, regulations were really strict.
19:19
And the number of cocoons that were allowed to run or operate
19:23
were limited.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: So we had to start with only one for the first 12, 14, 18 months.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And then we're allowed to run five or seven.
19:32
And the problem about it is once you get started,
19:35
people get really excited.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: So as long as you're...
19:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
19:39
and you will be the first funeral home in your area to offer
19:42
terramation in your
19:43
SPEAKER_00: area.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: So everybody will know about it.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: Everybody will come to you and ask about terramation.
19:49
SPEAKER_00: So you're definitely...
19:52
running into the situation that you probably outgrow 300
19:55
families real quick
19:57
SPEAKER_00: because others will come to your funeral home as well.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: What I mean to say is if you start with too little,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: you have to turn down families in that situation of grief.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: And that not only hurts your business,
20:11
SPEAKER_00: but first of all,
20:12
it's really hurtful on a personal level because your funeral
20:15
home director,
20:16
SPEAKER_00: you don't want to leave them alone in that situation.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: Right.
20:19
So my answer is we always recommend to start with something
20:24
like 10 vessels.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: Why 10?
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Because you also need,
20:29
SPEAKER_00: and we don't talk about it probably enough,
20:32
SPEAKER_00: is that you need some surrounding technology.
20:34
You will need a post-processing unit where you can refine the
20:38
soil and the bones together.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: And if you use that technology for more cocoons,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: you get faster into economies of scale and the write-off is faster.
20:49
SPEAKER_00: The return of invest is faster because that's a fixed cost.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And you don't generate money with that fixed cost block.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: You generate your revenue with the vessels.
20:58
So that's why I say the ratio between the vessels and the
21:01
post-processing unit
21:02
SPEAKER_00: should be better.
21:05
One post-processing unit in our case can serve something like
21:09
200 to 250 vessels a year.
21:12
SPEAKER_00: So while you're running, that's like when it gets to capacity.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's why I would say if you're looking at something like 10 vessels,
21:21
SPEAKER_00: that is probably a good starting point.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And the whole investment for 10 vessels,
21:28
SPEAKER_00: including post-processing and everything that you need,
21:30
SPEAKER_00: is probably roughly a million dollars.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: That was less than I thought it was going to be.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm happy to be here.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: If you're interested, give me a call.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're already here.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: The other thing I want to ask,
21:45
SPEAKER_01: and this is,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: again,
21:47
SPEAKER_01: you've considered it,
21:49
but it's always got to be a sticking point is everyone makes
21:53
their own regulations.
21:55
So the temperatures in California are going to be different
21:58
from the temperatures
21:59
SPEAKER_01: in New York,
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Maryland,
22:02
SPEAKER_01: Minnesota,
22:03
SPEAKER_01: all the M states.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: You mean the temperatures that the process has to reach.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: And so is that a problem for you?
22:10
Do you have like a sweet spot that you know is going to be
22:14
acceptable for everyone?
22:15
SPEAKER_01: I just wrote, oh, we just got our first electric cremator here.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: And it's fantastic.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And when I was interviewing the person who was running that,
22:26
SPEAKER_01: she said that,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:28
SPEAKER_01: since she's already meeting European standards,
22:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:31
SPEAKER_01: there's no world where...
22:32
SPEAKER_01: Where the U.S.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: standards are going to be lower, so she should be fine.
22:40
And I was wondering if that was the same with teramation or if
22:43
you have to make any
22:44
SPEAKER_01: adjustments to make sure you hit all the standards in,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
22:48
SPEAKER_01: the temperature standards for decomposition.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the temperature standards always require a minimum temperature.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And that temperature is probably something like...
23:02
SPEAKER_00: What's it going to be?
23:03
SPEAKER_00: It's probably something like 120 or 130 Fahrenheit.
23:09
And that is a temperature that is so easily reached in our
23:13
process that we will
23:15
SPEAKER_00: always exceed it.
23:16
So our process usually,
23:18
you need that temperature because it's a natural very high
23:22
fever.
23:23
SPEAKER_00: It also is needed to kill the pathogens, potential pathogens.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: we will always reach something like 160.
23:31
Whereas the requirements from state to state might vary
23:35
something between,
23:35
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
23:37
SPEAKER_00: 125 to 140.
23:40
But since we're above that threshold anyways,
23:43
I don't really worry about it.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what we need to be looking at.
23:48
SPEAKER_00: And of course,
23:49
we're talking about what is the maximum temperature that you
23:52
will need for the
23:55
SPEAKER_00: hygienization of the process.
23:56
And what is the temperature that is then also kept throughout
24:01
the process for the
24:02
SPEAKER_00: ideal transformation.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And that might vary a bit.
24:05
But we will always be able to hit the higher temperature levels
24:09
so we don't worry about it.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think none of the other operators usually does.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: What I think is important,
24:15
SPEAKER_00: and that is something regulators need to think about it,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: we don't add any additional heat to the process.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: So we don't heat it up.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: There is no heater.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: We don't use heated air.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: It is all natural temperature.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: It's only the microbes that
24:30
SPEAKER_00: that do their work.
24:31
And just as humans,
24:32
when we work,
24:33
when we do sports,
24:34
we get warm,
24:35
we start sweating.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: And the microbes are essentially the same.
24:38
SPEAKER_00: When they do their work, they heat the process up.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And that's all the energy and all the heat we need.
24:44
So I think something that regulators should be thinking about
24:47
is requiring
24:49
SPEAKER_00: operators not to add any additional heat.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: That is, first of all, sustainable.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: And that's also then the most natural process that we're looking at.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: I had the privilege,
24:58
I'm old enough to have covered the organic kind of revolution
25:04
such as it was in the
25:05
SPEAKER_01: early 90s.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: And that was the big case with the farmers.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: There were farmers who were absolutely furious about the temperatures.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: And the guys would kill each other over seven degrees one or the other.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So...
25:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: The other thing that's important to talk about,
25:24
SPEAKER_01: and I'm sorry I let it go with the 10,
25:26
SPEAKER_01: you said 10 vessels,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: and I'm like,
25:28
SPEAKER_01: that's great.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: How much space is that?
25:30
SPEAKER_01: And how much of an issue is that for?
25:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
25:34
SPEAKER_01: each funeral home has its own layouts and things,
25:37
SPEAKER_01: but how do you envision the space that would be needed for 10 vessels?
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
25:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
25:44
SPEAKER_00: of course,
25:45
that also very much depends on how you want to design things
25:51
and all of that.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: But I'd roughly say that for 10 vessels,
25:55
SPEAKER_00: you will need something like,
25:56
SPEAKER_00: well,
25:57
SPEAKER_00: the post-processing unit that we offer,
26:00
SPEAKER_00: we can offer it in a sea freight container.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: So you could actually put it outside.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to put it into a building.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: But let's say you put it into your building,
26:10
then you'll probably need something like 2,500 square feet to
26:15
get started with
26:16
SPEAKER_00: something like 10 vessels.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: And that means we're not stacking them on top of each other just yet.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, so they're laid on top.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
26:26
So they're one next to each other because the way we design it
26:30
in our process is
26:31
SPEAKER_00: also that we try to...
26:33
SPEAKER_00: What we always say,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: we have three pillars of respect.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: The first pillar of respect is for the families and the decedents.
26:40
So we need to design everything that we do as beautiful and
26:44
respectful for the
26:45
families in grief and for the person looking for a burial
26:48
method for themselves.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: So it has to be beautiful.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: It has to be accessible.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: It has to be easy for families to participate because...
26:55
SPEAKER_00: Death itself is not scary.
26:57
I know that we're scared about it,
26:59
but you don't have to be scared of burying a person.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: They still look beautiful.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: You can still get close.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: You can still help in the whole process.
27:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's the first one.
27:09
The second one is respect for our team and everybody that's
27:14
working with it.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: So...
27:16
SPEAKER_00: We designed everything in a way that is highly automated.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
27:21
sort out the bones manually because we refined them together
27:24
with the soil.
27:26
Because we thought that is something we don't want to ask
27:28
people to pick out the
27:30
SPEAKER_00: human bones out of the soil.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: So respect for everybody that we're working with is the second pillar.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: And the third pillar is respect for our planet and the environment.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: So we try to use as little resources as possible.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Our process only produces about,
27:44
SPEAKER_00: on average,
27:45
SPEAKER_00: 200 pounds of new soil because we use less material at the beginning.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: And so our process is very efficient.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: We use no additional energy.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: So that is the third pillar of respect.
27:56
Why I'm saying that is we designed our process in a way that
28:00
the vessel of
28:01
SPEAKER_00: that we use has wheels.
28:03
You can roll around,
28:04
you can put it in a chapel,
28:06
you can move it into your funeral home.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: You don't need a forklift for that.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: we take off the dress panel,
28:15
SPEAKER_00: which we put around for the ceremony,
28:17
SPEAKER_00: and then we can just push the vessel into our rocking base,
28:22
SPEAKER_00: because we do have a little rocking motion during the process,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: but you don't need a forklift for that.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Of course, once you start stacking them on top of each other, you do.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: But for the basic setup with 10 vessels, you don't need it.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: And you also don't need the investment for forecasting.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely fantastic.
28:37
And that is actually probably not all I have for you,
28:40
but that's all we have time for today.
28:42
Well,
28:44
we might have a chance to talk again about other details of the
28:47
process if you want to.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm sure I'm sure we'll make that opportunity.
28:51
But before I let you go,
28:52
I do want to make sure I covered everything you wanted to
28:54
cover.
28:55
So is there something that I should have asked and I didn't or
28:57
something you
28:58
SPEAKER_01: thought you'd get the chance to say,
28:59
SPEAKER_01: but I didn't provide?
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Well,
29:00
what I really think what the most important thing is and you're
29:03
already doing is we
29:04
SPEAKER_00: not need to start talking about it.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Micah Truman from Return Home put it so beautifully and said,
29:10
SPEAKER_00: the lack of knowledge creates fear.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: So people are afraid of terramation because they don't know about it.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: So please, let's talk about it, everybody.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for your work in educating people about it.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: And everybody's hearing about it.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: Reach out, talk to me, talk to one of the other operators.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: get knowledge,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: and then make your decision whether or not you want to offer it,
29:34
SPEAKER_00: how you want to talk about it.
29:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a very gentle, it's a beautiful method.
29:38
It might not be for everybody,
29:40
but we're offering only one additional alternative.
29:42
We don't want to say everybody has to use Terramation,
29:45
but we know that many people really do.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: So please start talking about it.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: That's the most important thing.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so very much for your time.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for having me.
29:54
See,
29:54
I told you Pablo's a really interesting guy and really high
29:57
energy and well engaged.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And I hope he does well.
30:01
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I've always been a fan of Terramation.
30:03
SPEAKER_01: I like this additional aspect of it.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: As he said, this is not for everybody.
30:09
SPEAKER_01: And this is also a very early days thing.
30:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm just glad that...
30:14
SPEAKER_01: they're not going to pass it in any more states where it's not possible.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: Now that it's definitely possible in every state where it's legal,
30:22
SPEAKER_01: hopefully it'll be easier to make it legal in more states.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: And that will do it for this time.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: This podcast has been made possible by our subscribers.
30:32
Thank you very much to all of the paid subscribers who help to
30:36
keep this show going
30:37
SPEAKER_01: and keep everything running here today.
30:39
SPEAKER_01: at Russo HQ.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: But thank you to all of my subscribers and to you for tuning in.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: As I said before,
30:46
SPEAKER_01: time is short and the fact that you hang out with me for half an hour,
30:50
SPEAKER_01: I think is absolutely wonderful and I genuinely appreciate it.
30:54
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30:55
SPEAKER_01: please subscribe wherever you're listening now to the podcast,
30:58
SPEAKER_01: or as I mentioned earlier,
30:59
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31:10
SPEAKER_01: This is a busy week for podcasts.
31:12
I will be back on Wednesday with the first of the NFDA
31:16
candidate interviews and
31:17
SPEAKER_01: then again on Friday with the rest.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: So I'll talk to you again real soon.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Have a great day.