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Swimming Alongside Religion · Made, Not Found

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: When I was like eight years old and laying with my mom and I said that my life did not start.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I did not start when I was born in this body.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, what do you mean?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't know.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just know that I was something before this.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Start to say a prayer, normal prayer.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then it comes to me that I don't even know why I'm here in New York City.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I ask that question.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: But in my mind, I hear a voice that just pay attention tonight.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And said, Chris, I just wanted to tell you that God told me I'm here to bring you to him tonight.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I've heard this story, but it's no bringing things here because I think the moments that you have that anyone has, God moments, right?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: That you can call random, but when you're paying attention or not paying attention.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Made Not Found.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: We believe the best lives aren't found.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: They're built.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: One real conversation at a time.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Tired.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I feel the same way.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And yet these conversations always give me more energy, so.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well that that's good.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um You don't need a coffee.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, please.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: I've had like three today.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: But we're not talking about coffee, we're talking about faith.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so the question that was on my mind this week is what did faith mean to you growing up?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: And how has that changed or evolved through the years?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely changed over the years.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I mean for me growing up, I I've told you before, like we were, I would consider us holiday Catholics.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: People seem to laugh at that, but it's an accurate description.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like we would go to church on Christmas Eve, maybe on Easter, maybe some other random Sunday.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I went to Catholic school in second grade.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: My family all went to Catholic school.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: You went to Catholic school?
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: One year.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: For one year, what happened?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: You got kicked out?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: You were selling sunglasses in the bathroom.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: You and everyone else may think that, but no, we moved.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Way less exciting story.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I just tried to make it juicy.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you did sell sunglasses on the bus in elementary school, so I didn't pull that completely out of my that was post-Catholic school.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think my dad might have got kicked out of Catholic school, though.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think my stepdad might have too.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: How dare I pose that question?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm pretty sure both of them actually did.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, there you go.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I did not.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I think it's different.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It I think faith is different than religion, but it's off often combined.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it was for me.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so as a kid, I think I would say faith was religion, and so therefore I was holiday Catholic, and it was I mean, I was baptized, I was, I had my first communion, but I I did not get confirmed, which I don't did do you get confirmation?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up Protestant and it's a little bit different.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: We got baptized from when I was a baby, and then I was confirmed, but you said you were what?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: First I got my first communion or had my first communion.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, so that's I don't think that's a thing for us.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think once we're confirmed, I don't even know if that's what we called it, to be honest, but Protestant, it's some it's a similar ritual at that age, but it's essentially when you can take communion, I think.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it's not your first communion, like that's not what we call it.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, anyways, I I didn't get confirmation my confirmation, which is usually the last thing as you're age aging, I guess.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, as a as a student, like in high school or maybe around there.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get that.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was um look my grandma on actually my grandma's on both sides would be the ones who really like led I'll call religion.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say faith too, but for both sides of the family.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: My grandma Hunter was very religious, uh, worked at the Archdiocese in Youngstown.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Just um, yeah, faith was uh faith and religion were a big part of her life.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I remember as a kid, I I had a Bible that was a gift from her.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point after she passed, I like felt an urge to read it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I I pulled it out and started trying to read it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's really tough to read.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, especially as a kid.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um But I I always felt a draw to faith, but religion, organized religion always not that it didn't sit right, it just didn't it didn't captivate me, which I don't know if that's the role it's supposed to play, but that's the reality.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did you pray on your own as a child?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: Always.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: From a young age.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: Every night.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: When do you think that started?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't remember when it started, but I I have to imagine it had something to do with my one of my grandmas or both.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Did you?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I grew up Protestant, like I said, and we were uh not whatever you call the holiday conversion.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: We were pretty consistent.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: We'd go to church every Sunday, except for in the summers when we went camping on the weekends.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, it's interesting.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: I felt like my dad grew up Orthodox and he went to Protestant church with us.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think it was never for him, it was very known that it was for the family and for us and for my mom, who I feel like has always been very religious.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting because I think that I have really good memories of being in church.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I felt like a place that I was known and and loved.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I remember like learning that much or feeling a connection to God at that point.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think that but I do remember praying.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: I actually I don't remember how old I was, but I remember actually praying to God to say, please don't let me fall asleep before saying my prayers.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I lay in bed and lay there forever, which I always kind of have out, you know, I'm not like you, I don't fall asleep as soon as my eyes close.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would be like, Oh, God is, you know, hasn't let me fall asleep yet because I didn't say my prayers.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that started at a young age, but interestingly, and this seems like it's not related, but in my mind it is, when I was maybe like, I don't even know, maybe eight years old.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: I remember laying with my mom, and I said that my life did not start like I d I did not start when I was born in this body.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And she was like, What do you mean?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't know, I just know that I was something before this.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that was never something that was taught to me.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that was just something that was in me.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that what I what I grew up thinking religion was, and now what I believe religion versus faith is, because I think they're different too, have evolved so much and are very different, but I would consider myself now very spiritual.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a lot of faith, but not exactly very religious.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think in the current like environment, spiritual can mean God, or it can mean uh a lot of people like to use the universe or other terms.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean for you being spiritual?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I would say God.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I believe that they are one of the same though.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think that people sometimes shy away from the word God because maybe they had a negative experience with religion, and so it's easier than to say the universe.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: But to me it's the same thing.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: God is everything and and he is universe, he's everything.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: He's he mean he's within us too.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I would still use the word God, and I know you would definitely use the word God.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you would ever use the word universe, though, right?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would have at one point, maybe before two years ago or so.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think um there was a time where when my grandma hunter passed away, uh backtracking in the story, which you know, but my uh grandma hunter was like really she was really like close.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was really close to her, and she was really like important to me because as a kid, again, my parents were 18 when I was born, they were very like, you know, they were they were married for about five minutes, they were they were really like young and and fiery, and so there were a lot of like arguments between them, and and my grandma was always the calm like mediator for them, but also for me.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever I, you know, grandma hunters was always a like a safe place to go, even if my dad wasn't there, which is where where he lived at that time.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so when she passed away, um it was a big deal.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I knew I knew that she was actually it was a big deal, but at that time I was so young, I think it might have been I don't know, six, seven, eight.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember not being able to cry at the funeral and that like that like sticking with me for a while because I felt bad for not, you know, you don't know how to handle those things at those at those ages.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason I felt she was always with me was not only because we were close, she had a near-death experience before I was born, and again, she was very religious, and she talked about her near-death experience um at the at YSU at Youngstown State University, and they recorded it, and she talked about how she went through the tunnel and and the light, and she knew she was in the presence of God, and she saw my dad's face, uh, which is what she thought, and she came back because she knew she was you know here to take care of him.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was born, she told my dad and everyone else in my family that it wasn't him, it was me that she saw.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always felt like she was brought back to this world to take care of me.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so when she left, I was taken care of.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I just it was ingrained in me that I really didn't have anything to worry about, which is a beautiful belief and and feeling.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that lasted like through college, I would say, and for whatever reason, maybe because I was an adult at that point, it it faded a bit, although I love tapping back into that.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that may have been I was gonna say the closest to God I felt as when I was young, but I don't know that that's accurate, but I felt the presence of God through her with me.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because when you were talking, I was thinking there's pivotal pivotal moments in life, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's always interesting looking back how you can't remember so many things, but you do remember certain instances so clearly, right?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like those are just pivotal moments, and so like I think that her, I mean her near-death experience and her death probably were probably pivotal moments in your life surrounding so many things, but r you know, religion or faith being intertwined in those.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're exactly right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are moments.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh another one that I remember is like one of my best friends when I was younger, uh, you know, was Kevin, and his family was very religious, and they had this amazing, I would say amazing, but very like um extreme story that they would tell about how they how they became very religious.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, Kevin's dad was telling me how he used drugs and he had done uh some pretty harsh drug at one point, and under the influence, Saul and talked to Jesus Jesus, and that brought him the faith.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think his mom may have had like a similar experience.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, they were the family that I knew that was the deepest in religion.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: The odd thing was Kevin was the wildest of our group.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember actually specifically his mom telling me at one point, like, I pray for I pray for Kevin or to find out what Kevin does, and then when she found out one time, she said, I don't pray for that anymore.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I pray that he's gonna be okay.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And as a parent, I can I can now appreciate that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I can attest that he turned out more than okay and very, very religious or a strong faith.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and uh and the great man and dad and all the all these things.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I remember going to church with them when I was younger, and this would have been after I was not kicked out but moved out of out of uh Catholic school.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they weren't Catholic, they were Christian, non-denominational Christian.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a very foreign church experience to me.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was used to the ritual, and this was kind of what we know now as non-denominational churches.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, it might have been Christmas Eve, or it was right around the holidays, and they did this play called Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames, and it was a play to show like how people in real-world situations might either be accepted into heaven or go to hell.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's a powerful play, and it's the holidays, which are always, you know, that, especially around Christmas, that feeling.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at the end of the play, they asked everybody to close their eyes, and and then they asked you if you felt the presence presence of God, and if you wanted to give your life to Jesus to raise your hand.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I really felt like an urge to raise my hand.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of my thoughts popped in.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if Kevin raised his hand, and what if the other people, and what if there's kids I know there that don't raise their hand, and I'm not even here with my family, and I never did.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you were how old?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was probably somewhere between fifth and eighth grade.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we never talked about it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I ever told anybody until years later when I met Erwin and talked to him, but but I remember that moment.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: You talk about key moments in your in your journey, and and looking back now, uh, I wonder if I've always been being called by God to faith.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's interesting because I think that you know, I grew up going to church always, but in a Protestant Protestant church, and until we started going to a non-denominational national church, I never felt like I f really felt the presence of God in the church.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: But in Chicago we found this lovely church, and I remember like I would get God tears so often.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm sure that they had lots of times where they invited people to get baptized there, you know, and never necessarily felt the urge, but I I at that point I was in a Bible study group, like I felt like um Oh, that's right.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I felt like I was living without my faith, you know, in ways.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: But interestingly, when we were in in uh in California when we lived there, we were at a non-denominational church, and I remember feeling like that.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: They had people close their eyes too.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and I had already been baptized as a child, and I felt like I've had a I've always had a strong relationship with God.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I feel like I haven't necessarily always practiced that, but my faith in God never wavers.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, and it was one of those situations where they had everyone close their eyes and uh asked if you want to be baptized, and I was just felt so compelled to be baptized, and your mom did too, and she ended up coming, and you ended up coming too, right?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we all got baptized in I mean, that was maybe I don't know, ten years ago or something.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it might have been less than that because I think our youngest son might have been born.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, it was somewhere between ten and six years ago, I would say.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and all of us felt that pool that that day and did get baptized.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: But going back to Chicago, I remember that church.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember we were looking for a place, and I and I think the way I remember it, which is kind of comical.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Oh god, you're telling this.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: I remember this.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: I never gonna say is that our our oldest son was born, and we found out that the church had daycare.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like we get to take our son and coffee.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we get to take our son, someone's gonna watch them.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: We get a an hour of silence and calm, and we can drink some coffee.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're in.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we went every Sunday for a long time for that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: We are getting to church.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the the reason that's um funny to me is like there are different ways you get called, and that I don't think it matters how you get there as long as you get there.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know I definitely agree.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think that that was the catalyst for getting us the church.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it was such a beautiful experience for so many so many reasons.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and church can be, and then also on the other side, it can be, it can not be.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when we went to California and we were church hopping, trying to find a place that we liked, and we had found one church that we kind of liked, I think.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we had met some.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I thought we liked, yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we met some people that we liked the people, and then I think it was like the third or fourth week you could tell the story.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, we're sitting there, and the next thing we know, the priest puts on a video, and as soon as the video started, they started talking.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, this is gonna go south.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And they're basically talking about how they convert people from being gay.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you're gay, you can come to God and not be gay anymore.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just sitting there and I got so agitated, which is a probably a whole long story, but like I have an uncle that is gay who literally like hid from our family for the majority of his life because he could never he never felt like he would be accepted.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I can tell you that he did not choose to be gay, and him going to church is not going to change him being gay.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: He tried not to be gay, like anyway.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I was so triggered by it, and and this actually is what I have always struggled with is that like I said, my relationship with God, I feel like is solid, and I do not waver.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I really believe like God is everything, God is so powerful.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I have so many issues with religion, and that's just one example.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And like even I mean, no, you know, you'll have to tell your story of what's changed for you, but you know, you have such a beautiful practice of reading the Bible.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I struggle with that too, because I'm like the God that I know and by the way, that I have experienced time with through deep meditation.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and when I went to Dr.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Joe, like I could probably cry talking about it, but I was in deep meditation and I had a conversation with God about our children, and it was so real, and like there's just no way you can tell me that that's not God.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so to me, like you can find God in a lot of different ways.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think religion is one path to find God, but I have a problem with like thinking that God is this powerhouse that's going to send wrath, and that it's like to me, God is love, God is pure love, and I have felt that and I have experienced that and like the depths of me.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so anything that counters that I really struggle with.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with that is what a relationship with God is about.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think there are parameters that are set forth, which is the Bible, that are ways that you live to essentially stay in love, um, in the sense of the way you're talking about it, and in rightness, because I think I I think of um a few things that are it's an it's it's interesting to me at least, the the the triangulation of things.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I I think about the the big book, you know, my mom's in AA and and knowing about the kind of the parameters that are written in the big book and and the Bible and other things, and and some of these things are ways they're you know the saying is always there's no instruction manual on how to live life.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when you have kids, oh I didn't get the instruction manual, right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe you did.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Read the books.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the problem with the Bible, for many, me included, is it's really hard to translate and understand.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I I can say that for me, one of the really help uh big helps recently has been AI.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because my practice currently is I wake up and I read one chapter, uh chapter, I think it's a chapter, of a book of the Bible each day, but AI gives you the context of it, which is important, right?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And nuances that you wouldn't know when it's written in the time and how people thought and what this meant, right?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we in the modern day may translate it in a different way.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: As an example, I was re-reading Genesis 2 this morning, and it talked about the creation of humans, and it talks about how you know there was man, and then from man a rib was taken and a woman was created, but it says that's actually not the translation.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: The translation of the word, because remember it was written in a different language, was a side of man was taken.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the literal translation, that could mean man was split in half because taking a rib and and creating a woman makes it seem as if a woman is less than, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think in a lot of ways, verses are translated in these in these controversial ways, but understanding that changes the meaning a lot, right?
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's that's interesting.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: When you said um you have a problem with the the Bible, what did you mean by that?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: I have listen, like I have I tried to read the Bible when I was young, and actually I I I read a decent amount of the Bible, like maybe in my teenage years.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then we read to our youngest son, like he's been really interested in the Bible.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been children's stories, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Which I love because they're so easy to understand.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And like, however, there's so many times where they talk about God's wrath and like wiping out people.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I just always struggle with that because the God that I feel in my heart that I know is just just love, like I said.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's that.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like I have no issue with the principles, and I think there's so much.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we watched The Chosen, which was so beautiful.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad we watched it as a family, and I learned a lot.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And watching that made me like like Jesus in the chosen is what I believe in, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was pure love.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't, he wasn't judging everyone that everyone else was judging.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, didn't matter if you're a prostitute or whatever, like you were equal and you he loved you and he gave you nothing but kindness.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And like I'm like, that, that's what I can understand.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of especially the New Testament is very much like depicting this God that is almost like angry or meaningful.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: The Old Testament.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: But there's little pieces of it I've found even in the New Testament when I'm reading with with our youngest.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's the part that I like rebel against.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the old I don't a biblical scholar or anything, but I'm getting a better understanding.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the old testament is a different, is essentially a different phase of God, is the only way I can think about it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like Jesus was sent, according to the Bible, for that reason, to relate to humans and to give them away, to not sin and take away all their sins and there therefore please God.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And God doesn't want you to sin one because He has set the rules, but also because it's not good for you.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about like when I think about some of the um commandments, like thou shalt not kill, right?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or murder, or whatever the exact I'm not, I'm not gonna be perfect with these, but it's not only because you harmed somebody else, that act would harm you.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have to live with that, right?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I think there's there's an interesting, again, perspective to think of like these rules are set out for you to live the best life.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: I do think there's a a bit of like a view that makes sense to me, that is heaven and hell I think they can can be post this life, but I also think they can be this life.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like we know people who we would say are living in hell, whether that's in addiction or all these other issues, they may be and and I think for the most part we at this point in our life are living in heaven, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that that when applied that way, and when you think about the rules and lessons that are laid out, it's pretty beautiful.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I 100% agree, and I think that you know, I think that my relationship with God is beautiful.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, you know, like I read this whole series of conversations with God, and it was a guy who felt like he channeled God's words, and like the whole the whole series I was obsessed with, I devoured them.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: There's like six books or something because that felt to me like like the God, like I felt like I was having a conversation with God and it resonated and I felt all of it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And in that, it's they say there is no actual physical place of hell.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: However, it can be a state of mind, and I think you're 100% right that some people live in hell on earth for sure, but which is a whole nother thing, actually, which we don't need to go down that rabbit hole.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I do want you to share, you know, what has changed for you because I think Yeah, I was thinking like me sitting here arguing or point pointing out these things is probably, again, for anyone who knows me well or for a long time, is probably very foreign.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, not because I was ever didn't believe in God, but my relationship um with God wasn't the same as it is now.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so it started, I would say, probably two years ago, very random, I guess it would seem.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: Not random, but yes, yes.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it would seem.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the first thing that might have happened was I was looking for we rarely watch TV.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And on the occasion that I have the ability to watch a show, which is usually when I'm traveling, I didn't know what to watch.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I came across the House of David.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And watching that show, it by myself, I don't think anyone else watched it with me at that at the beginning.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Not then, yeah.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like really drawn to it, partially because you hear these historical stories of David and Goliath in this example, you know the outcome.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: The little the little underdog David slays the giant.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds great, right?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and they do such a good job in this show of really bringing you into the scene and the time, and you get to know this character, David, who's a shepherd, and you see what it actually means to have the courage to go fight the giant, and and you realize how what what this story is.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's not this, oh, just that's great, and I want to be David.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you really want to be David when you see him have to go out against this giant that you know, and so it resonated with me, and it really like opened my eyes to be interested in in biblical stories.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the bottom, when that show finished, it gives you recommendations of other shows, and Chosen was there.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I started watching that, and what was so fascinating to me about that was it brought these, like you had said, it brought these stories that we might know, but to life and humanize them.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And when you see the apostles who are fishermen and Jesus walking up and performing a miracle, and they immediately start following him, you're you're forced to like put yourself in that situation.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, would I really drop everything and go follow this person that I believe is is God or this prophet?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how likely is that for you right now?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's an extreme, you know, thing.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, leap of faith.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Leap of faith.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was what really got me along this spiritual journey, I think.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Fast forward, I go to a big trade show called Expo West for you know for our industry, and randomly, uh again, randomly use that word for now.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we'll use that for now, yeah.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, a guy that I don't know, but works for a data supplier that we purchase data from reaches out and says, him and someone else are gonna come to our booth.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he comes to our booth and we start talking about work or whatever.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: One of the guys leaves, this guy stays and starts talking to me about God, tells me his whole story, and I start talking to him.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And at at before he leaves, he said, Can I pray with you?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm in the booth in my industry with my team around with thousands of people at this community.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And we're sitting at a table, and he puts his hand on my shoulders, we close our eyes and he prays over me.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I it was it felt a little weird.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think much about it.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if anyone noticed it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't care.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I probably did a little bit, but that was amazing.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Hey, can I put you in this men's um chat group, uh text chain, whatever, text group.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: I forgot.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, sure.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started randomly getting again, I'm using random a lot, but like occasionally getting these messages from people, hey, pray pray for this, or here's a situation, or here's a verse, or whatever it may be.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's all good and great, and that's probably enough.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then the real things start to happen, which are life-changing.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: I get a call from someone I know who I've never met in person, but we have talked because he's in the fitness industry and with Koya, we're we're trying to do some partnerships.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he tells me, Hey, um I'm having this dinner in New York City with this guy, Erwin McManus, and it's a small dinner, and I'm just inviting a few people, would you like to come?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I who's Erwin?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have no clue.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, uh, he's kind of this like Tony Robbins type guy, uh, but with a religious angle.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: He coaches a lot of successful people.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And look, we have three kids, we have busy lives.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I try to travel less, but for some reason, I said, Yeah, I'm in.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went to New York and I planned some meetings around it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I went and had lunch with our uh with our lawyer for the business, and it's a beautiful day in New York City, and I'm walking back to my hotel because I don't have a full schedule, which is rare in and of itself, and I'm walking past the church, and I see a few people walk in.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm not in a rush, and I'm just signaled to told to go in.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I never randomly walked into a church in any city besides in Italy when we were there.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I walk into this church, no one's in there, and I walk over to the side and I light a candle, and I thought I'm I'm here, I might as well say a prayer.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I go into a pew, I kneel down, close my eyes, start to say a prayer, normal prayer, and then it comes to me that I don't even know why I'm here in New York City.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so I asked that question, and I hear, and saying I hear this makes it sound weird.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't hear a voice, but in my mind, I hear a voice say just pay attention tonight.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Okay.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got up and left, went back to my hotel, got ready, I go to the go to this dinner, and it ended up moving from the original place.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was standing there, they called me, and I went to another place, and I walk in and I don't know anyone, and I meet the people, the guy that invited me.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I meet some other people.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually about to go get a drink, and then I started talking to somebody, and then Irwin walks in and I said hi, and he had some like, I don't know, he seemed like he was dressed goofy.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Okay, I don't know, whatever.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then they invite us to go sit down, and we sit at this long table, and I usually try to sit in the middle so I can talk to the most people, and Erwin sits right across from me.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we get engaged in this conversation, it was one of the most fascinating conversations.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think he's probably a genius.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's very smart and intellectual and a good conversationalist, and that's all I know about him at this point.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we start going into faith, and he tells me his story, and I tell him mine.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: I tell him about the Heaven's Gates and Hell's Flames play, and um and he stops in the middle and he said, Chris, probably after 20-some minutes, actually, the funny thing is I'm talking to him, and everyone else at the table wants to talk to him.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can see it.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt bad because I'm hogging the conversation.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I couple times tried to let other people talk to him, but we just kept getting engaged in conversation.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: And at one point he stopped and he said, Chris, I just wanted to tell you that I God told me I'm here to bring you to him tonight.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like taken back.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, You'll never believe what happened earlier today.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I told him that story, and he said, Oh, I believe that's how this works.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, So, you know, no big deal to me, but to me, it was like life-changing.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we sat, everyone else got up and walked outside, and we sat there for another 10 minutes.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of that, he told me, I'm having a retreat in Mexico, I would like to invite you.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a small group, and I immediately said yes when I got back, and it changed my life.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I've heard this story, but it so brings me to tears because I think the moments that you have, that anyone has, that are, I mean, God moments, right?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: That you can call random, but when you're paying attention are not random at all.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And those moments are everything because like every time that happens to me, and no matter how small it is, that was a big one.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Those those were big things.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: But no matter how small, it's just like a reminder that there is divine order to everything and that God is in everything and and answers, you know, even our our smallest things.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: But like these God moments have always brought me to tears, and it's yeah, so it's it's amazing.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't think that that moment in and of itself was life-changing.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: It led to life-changing.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is that's great, but when I left there, okay, I'm going to this retreat in Mexico, which didn't, wasn't even a religious retreat.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: He does like he does do executive coaching, and that's what it ended up being about.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And he definitely tries to separate the two, but he gave me his number and told me to call him and let's keep in contact.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I did, and he started guiding me into faith.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I I remember he said, Hey, you should read.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had bought one of his books.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: He has like probably 20 books.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I had bought one and I read it, and it was okay.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he told me, you should read uh The Barbarian Way.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, I just read, I forget the other book.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Yeah, that's kind of the more female version of Barbarian Way.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just re-released it after 20 years, and I read it, and it resonated so it resonated so much with me because what I realized is the problem I always had with church was I didn't identify with what I thought it was supposed to be.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was supposed to be dressed up and I was supposed to be perfect, and I was not supposed to be aggressive, and I wasn't supposed to be whatever, that wasn't the church.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: And in barbarian way, it's very different.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's he says, You gotta think about Jesus and the apostles.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: They were like outcasts, they were renegades, they weren't, they were against the anti-establishment, essentially, right?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that click, I was like, I can be that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of me.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and we talked, mean he and I talked about faith, and he said, Look, you're just who you are.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're always gonna be swimming alongside organized religion.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: It probably will never feel right for you, but it doesn't have to.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because at at dinner that night I said, I don't know what to call you.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do I call you a Christian?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: He said, No, you call me a follower of Jesus.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was pretty amazing.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: That is.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I really like that.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I feel like that's my journey also, is what did you say?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Swimming alongside religion.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like like that resonates to me also.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: And when you say that, I think that there is I imagine a lot of people feel that though, like where you feel like you go to church and like you don't you don't want to go to church and just be reminded of how bad you are and how unworthy you are.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you can feel that way.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I that's where I've always had a rub, right?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we know we're we're imperfect, like we that's just the nature of the human experience is that we are imperfect.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, try to be good, and yes, I'm I pray almost every day, like help me to live more like Jesus.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to fall short every single day.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And have you know, I don't need to go to church to have somebody tell me that I'm gonna burn in hell because of it, you know?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's not helpful, but but to have a relationship with God or Jesus, I think is what's most important.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting because we're not, you know, now we have three boys, we have shopped a lot of churches.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: We've gone to church sometimes, we'll go in phases where we go to church, but we don't regularly go to church.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um however, like you have you even more so than me.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: I pray daily, and I have started to pray on my knees because of you, honestly, in the mornings.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Although I'm so bad in the mornings, I think I should try tonight.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Erwin told me at one point he said, Everyone prays different because I was I'm curious about this.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, he said, if I pray on my knees, I'll fall asleep.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it that's so fascinating because we have this image of what we're supposed to do, and he even even he as a pastor doesn't do it that way, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that there's right or wrong, but I think the seeking the relationship is the thing.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I asked him at one point, like, how do I know if I have a relationship with God?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just talking to him, telling him, I said, like now when I get woken up in the middle of the night, which has always been a problem for me, right?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I can fall asleep in a second.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can staying asleep has always been a little bit tough.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I said, now instead of um thinking about all the things I have to do and being anxious about these different things, I think God woke me up to tell me something.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I then try to connect and pray and listen.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Do you think someone that didn't have a relationship with God would think God's waking them up?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, Oh, of course.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's simple, right?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Or I was asking, How do I read the Bible?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Someone told me each day to open the Bible and you know, look for the verse and it's gonna speak to you.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, It's not, it's not like a legal document, it's not like a fortune-telling book.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: You don't just pick it up and it's gonna tell you the answer for the day.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so those reframings I think are so fascinating.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he he talked about the legal structure.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: He said, We have the tendency to look at as a legal structure.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: If I do this, then I get that type thing.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's just not how it works.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a good realization.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: It helped me.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I totally get that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what you're saying about like hearing God, I think like I think that I have heard God speak to me so many times too, and it's not like in some other voice.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I do think it it resonates differently, though.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not exactly the same voice that I would talk to myself, but it's still just a thought.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's a thought in your mind, right?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, today actually we were the our boys wanted to swim, and it was like thunderstorming outside, and so the boys were in the pool, and I was like not sure if it was safe because there was like thunder and lightning around.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I said a prayer just quickly, like, Lord, let us know if this is not safe for them.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And literally, like, I was done with the prayer, and there was a flash of lightning right on the sky, and I'm like, okay, they gotta get out, right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I told I asked the boys to come out, and then they told them the story of that, and then I remembered a another story that like two, three years ago, we were supposed to go to California for an event, and our little guy was sick and like very feverish sick.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: There was also a tropical storm that was coming in, and so I was having all of these like concerns about leaving and the boys were gonna stay with my parents.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I was laying in bed and I couldn't fall asleep, and I was praying about that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, help me to know what to do.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: I just I really just don't know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: And and literally the electricity went out as soon as I was done praying.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And like to me, those are so God moments.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you could be listening to this and be like, those are not even attached, like that doesn't it's not God, but like it's a feeling too.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's like like a feeling that is so hard to put into words, but that like a knowing, maybe it's like almost the same thing of like me knowing at at seven or eight that my soul didn't start now, right?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's a view on life, which I think is is when you can find a relationship with God, you can start to take a view on life that nothing is by chance, yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so the of the electricity going out is a sign, or pay attention to who you're talking to because they may be given a message to relay, or you may be giving the message to relay to them and you don't even know.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: But these things aren't we started by saying chance are random and they're not, and and I believe that, and so it's it's actually for me pretty exciting when you can think about it life in the in that sense.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, let me pay attention to the clue, let me listen.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um now I pray for discernment because you hear, I I listen, but do I know it, how do I know it's me or it's God?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so the discernment and then the courage because and the faith, right?
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the the discernment is knowing, the faith is following, the courage is is following through because there's always going to be obstacles.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and the one thing that Erwin said to me that made sense is people the churches do a bad job right now of conveying this message of if you pray, life will be perfect and you won't have hardships.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually not what it's about.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's about helping you, you know.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: When um I I think the example that I heard was when you pray for courage, God gives you an obstacle to prove you have courage, right?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: David prayed for courage, he had to fight the giant.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's kind of how I think about it now is it's not like life is gonna be easy, life isn't intended to be easy, but you want to anchor in something.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think actually, sorry, I'm rambling, but I think the most beautiful thing that happened in all of that to for me was how it showed up in our boys.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't come back and ever say anything to our boys.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they heard the stories, right?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I never told them you should start, you know, doing anything.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly Ash, I won't take credit for this, but like suddenly Ashton was our youngest, was very interested in the Bible and wanted to read it.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Our middle son started wearing a cross.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Our oldest son asked for faith over fear shirt, and I saw his I saw his um screensaver and it was a cross.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that was like uh so beautiful to me because I didn't have to say anything.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: They just saw me.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And they saw me living that way and what was important to me, and it meant something to them enough so that they were willing to follow that.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so different being that we have three boys watching their dad have faith and a relationship with God, I think is very different than me.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're you know, they love to make fun of me for all of my woo-woo things, and they could easily like put my my faith in that same category, but coming from you, it's it just hits differently.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's modeled differently.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we were talking about our um experiences with faith and religion, and we both talked about the women, my grandmas, your mom, and I think growing up that was our those were the spiritual leaders.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was women.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was reading a stat that I thought was fascinating where it was it was something along the lines of like when a mom goes to church, 20% of the time the family goes.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: When a dad goes to church, 80% of the time the family goes.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And s something else was a stat about when a couple prays together, the chance of you know divorce is like 90% less.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and but even with that being said, I remember telling you like I felt a little self-conscious about getting on my knees and praying in the morning, or maybe I I would do it, but then when you woke up, I might jump up real quick.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I noticed at some point you started doing it too.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: Which was so interesting to me because you've been doing you had been doing it for months.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I I was thinking like, I pray, just don't pray on my knees.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I had no like I didn't feel bad about it, it was just what it was, until I hear heard like a whisper of like, get on your knees, because it's an intentional time.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I know when I'm laying in bed, I pray every single night, but I can easily start praying and then drift off to think about something else.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: And next thing I know, I fall asleep, right?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was like very clear to me that getting on my knees was like a dedicated time to do so.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when I still did it for the first couple times in front of you, I felt uncomfortable.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, This is so interesting.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: You've been doing this for months.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_02: Clearly, you're not gonna judge me.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: And why and and why don't I don't think you're judging me ever anyway.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very interesting to observe my own hesitation in that scenario.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's one of the problems that I see is like, and and one of the things I wanna try to change is like it's become so not unacceptable, but almost like taboo.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: I I guess religion's always been a little bit one of those topics, like you don't want to talk about religion, politics, or whatever it may be, but like I'm not gonna be judgmental.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I also don't have to like hide what I believe.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I heard this said before this way, like if you really believe what you believe, like you would be doing people a disservice if you didn't tell them, you know, about religion and salvation and all these things.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm look, I'm no preacher and I'm but I'm also not shy to talk about it if if asked, or maybe even drop a couple hints and see if people bite.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um one more question, I feel like, before we wrap up, but and I don't exactly even know how to ask, but I was just thinking, I don't even know the answer to my own question, but how do you feel like God is using you or speaking to you nowadays?
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: And do you resist any of the things you think that He's asking?
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: I I try not to, I don't know.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I wonder sometimes how open I am to receiving messages that I may not be uh open to.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: But um I can tell you I've definitely been more generous with my community, with people.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I definitely get more signs or God speaking to me through things.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, especially in, you know, we talked about this, like in fearful moments, um a sign or confidence or you know, taking away fear and anxiety um shows up.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even in random comical ones.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: I told you last week I was heading home, I was out of gas, I was almost out of gas.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: I passed three gas stations, I ended up going to one specifically.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: I pull in, go to pump gas in my car, and I see this jacked black guy walking across the street with like no shirt on, but these like two straps across them, and he has this Indian headdress on.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, oh, what is going on?
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: This guy must be out of his mind.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he catches me, he catches eyes with me, and he walks over and he's like, What's your name, man?
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can see you know Posivor in you.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're a protector, you got you're doing amazing things.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: God told me.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, I said I'm Chris.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, Christopher, I I know you're a protector.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: That name, I'm I'm Jacob, I'm one of the 12.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was an interesting interaction, but the most interesting part was when he walked away, he prayed out loud, Lord, please protect Chris.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna, you know, guide him along.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I had asked for a sign that's that morning.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: So And you would call yourself a protector, and I would too.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: So for somebody to say that and know that, um, but am I uh listening always?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's part of praying every day, is trying to get and and I think it goes through waves.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought this morning, like I feel like I was really dialed in and talking to God, and I feel like I'm struggling a little bit at this moment, and I think that's probably normal.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that's definitely my journey too.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's times, I mean, even in our relationship, right, where you feel so connected and so dialed in, and then there's other times where you feel a little less connected, and I feel the same way, I think, you know, with God for me also.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I reached out because I th I reached out to someone that we know that's a pastor here and said, Hey, do you do you recommend a specific prayer group?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was trying to think of like, are there things I should do to get involved?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't go to church every Sunday.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's we don't go to church way more than we've got.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: We rarely go.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: But we do watch church broadcasts at our house, and I read the Bible every morning and meditate most mornings with you, pray every night.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I feel like my relationship's strong, but I don't know.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel like there's a calling that you're ignoring or that's you're not that you are following or are fighting?
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not sure, to be honest.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you, you know, you only know what you don't know, right?
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I think God will talk to us for long periods of time before we get it.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like sometimes like apologizing for being so dense.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: But honestly, I feel somewhat like my purpose here is just to show up like authentically and with love.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And some parts of me feel like that's why we're sitting in these chairs, is because we're here to bear all and show up in love, and and we're gonna get judged along the way, and that that's gonna be hard, but that that's just part of it, you know?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's like not like we're trying to model anything except for imperfection.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like that it's okay, you know, like it's okay that that we're all kind of fucked up.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: But we're trying, and and and it's just is the human experience, and that we come from a really beautiful place and and everyone's not gonna agree with any of it, and that it's okay, you know.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I also think that there's so many times where people have um said, like, oh, you shouldn't do this because of this, or like we talked about this in the fear episode, but when you talk about fear, and I feel like that's also like where like you said, like just because you have faith does not make your life easy, you know.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have so many times where we're like we don't know what's gonna happen, and it's scary, and and and I think that is when our faith is the strongest, and I think that we're able to model that to our kids and to other people and like my my parents, for instance, who you know worry about us traveling and for maybe good reasons, and and I sincerely believe like we are in God's hands, and and that's what I tell them, like just pray for us instead of worrying about us and and know that God has us and whatever that may mean, you know.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know, bes beyond that, maybe there's things I'm not hearing, but that is what I am hearing.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think at the core, if you're if you're trying to be a good person, that is a really good starting point.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: And recognizing that we are all imperfect, and then you know, receiving grace for that rather than judging ourselves or allowing others to judge us, I think that is that's the beginning of it, right?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: And even like, you know, finding compassion for those who do, right?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: You might judge us, and that's coming from your place, and I can still find compassion and love for you because that's the journey that you're on, and and and that's the best that I can do, and that's the best that you can do, you know.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I get that right all the time, of course, but that's what I'm aiming for.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, I I think like always with these episodes, we're not pretending to have the answers, as we just said, right?
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's definitely not the end of the conversation, it's just the beginning.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: And our intention here is to spark a conversation, share our conversation, but really spark a conversation for others around a question that that we asked.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we started the conversation from a question that you posed.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which was you know, what did you learn about faith and religion when you were young?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: And is that still serving you?
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: And how has it evolved and changed?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's what we hope somebody takes away and has a conversation with their significant other or their friends or their family.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we'd love to hear from you.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear any conversation that it does spark.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: But we appreciate you.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for being here.