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Mishlei 26:1 - Meteorological Metaphors for Giving Honor to a Fool Part 1) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're back to Mishle, and we are just continuing where we left off.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this is in the Anche Fiskyahu portion of Vishle, um, where we are doing the shorter sukin.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh we're actually gonna see someone say something uh uh like universal like that as well.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh those of you who are teaching or planning on teaching, this is my go-to snow day puzzle.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: All right, in other words, if I have a uh if there's a snow day and they force us to give classes, this is the one that I have in the holster.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Pashelig vacayit the chamatar bakatir cane lonave lhsil cabod.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: How would you translate that?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_06: When you say snow day, do you mean literally a snow day?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean literally a snow day when school is closed for snow reasons.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Then this is my go-to puzzle.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: My first go-to puzzle.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple of Psukim about snow.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: But this is a fun one.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: And this is also a good intro puzzle, I think.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh not not like in its entirety, but like I think this is a good, like, yeah, I'm not gonna spoil anything, but yeah.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, oh, so because of because I've taught this one a bunch of times, any puzzle I teach a bunch of times that's in my curriculum.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: My goal when I go over it with you guys is to come up with like kidushim beyond what I usually do.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I mean, I obviously that's cool the goal in general, but you know, okay, how would you translate it?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_06: Like snow in summer?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like snow in summer, in the summer, right?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the chemater bakatir, like rain, the harvest season.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like rain in the harvest season, the harvest season.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Cain lo nave seal covod.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's not yeah, so too.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: It is not fitting.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good translation.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's another one also, but yeah, not fitting.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for a fool.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, honor.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go ahead and just say I'm gonna I know I'm gonna change the uh the order here, but so too, honor is not fitting for a fool.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh are there any of the oh that song?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: The Facebook song?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that is the other translation of Nave.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I also good my go-to translation for Nava is um fitting, but what would Na be?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um or more than more, let's just uh a little bit more than nice.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Nice is a little vague.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_06: Isn't that all both fittings?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful, beautiful, right?
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so um like it's not a good look, you know, for the world.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why, for example, Hazal, uh, what are they um what basic principle in palakha that they derive from Zay Khaliva Andehu?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone know?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Hitra mitzvah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Hidder mitzvah, right?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So this is my god, and I will beautify him.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean I'll beautify the mitzvos.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it can also mean uh beauty.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so okay, so then uh our procedure for those who are new is we do uh trans our translation, then we do what I call the minimalist mefarshim, who are the either the ones who are glossary mefarshim or translators, okay, and then we try working out on our own, and then we do mefarshim here.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we got Mitsusion, uh Mitsusion, but I'm gonna make this a little bit bigger.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so he says bakites, um is stichashateinim liavesh, vikoreth.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I associate to that same positive, but not with uh stichas teinim.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the uh what is what does that mean?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_05: The time it's like spreading out um the fruits to dry.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is the time of the spreading out of the figs to dry.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: You guys recently came from Israel, most of you.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the um when do figs grow?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because I thought I was in Israel for a summer and I remember there were figs constantly being produced produced on a tree.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like it was not a like no, those figs are not according to my understanding of figs, it's not like a type of fruit where you get all of them at once.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like they're you know, like we go to the we go to the fig tree and there's like new figs every day, you know.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: All right, fine.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So like just I'm just commenting on it now because it does not seem like there's one like a flush of figs.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: You've never heard that expression because there's no such thing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so sorry, to dry.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as uh in um, and this is funny, Vikais Vakorov, what what's the context there?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_05: I have no object.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_05: After the model that I would not do, yeah.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right, so uh summer and winter will not cease, right?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, yeah.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_09: Just in terms of like if it's I I'm just basing on top of my auditorium reality, but um, but by if it if it operates like the cool emblem, yeah, so the first fruits are coming around, I sure doesn't make sense that they're drawn yet by the summer.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I don't know because also figs have a very short shelf life, they go bad really quickly.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: So like the way oh, you mean oh maybe that maybe that's what it means.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're constantly keeping the figs out in the sun throughout, yeah.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_09: By the time the summer comes, yeah, right, you've now dry them.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_09: Right?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_09: And you start the harvest of the figs starts in around two less.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, right.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_09: That's when you're bringing the buclium, right?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_09: You start drying them shortly afterwards, it's gonna be yeah.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I what I'm saying, I'm adding a uh nuance here, which is that because figs go anyone's ever bought figs, like they go bad, they get moldy really quickly.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you probably just start uh picking them.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's when the bucurum happens, but then you just are drying them the entire summer, right?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's okay.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that that all right, I don't know if this matters, but Steve thinks so.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Nave is not it, come on, nae, uh Nava Tehila.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so he says it's beautiful.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: All right, now next we have the tafsir of Sadigon.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the tafsir?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the Judeo-Arabic translation.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So usually we have two resources uh for Judeo-Arabic, because I don't know about you, I don't know Judeo-Arabic.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: We have um the footnotes of Rav Khatakh, um, which is also published in the Torah Shaim, where he basically tries to uh point you to what the nuances are um that are different.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then we've got the Naves Shalom, which is my the uh one of the most uh boss names Rev Amram Korach.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, uh yeah, right, who names their kid the kids that you know um and he also comments on it.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now I don't uh they don't neither of them say anything here, so I turned to uh to Claude.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Claude is actually very good at Judeo-Arabic.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've been doing a lot of experiments with it.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, here it says that it's almost a word-for-word rendering.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it does mention little things like uh it drops the the the ch so drops the uh comparison.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um it uh I had to look this up.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know what anarthis is?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it means it's lacking words like the or an.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, this is normal Arabic usage for generic class.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this actually made me go, huh?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't know if you recall when we ever see Sadigone, he usually will add like ha or take away ha.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So apparently that's just like normal Judeo-Arabic, I guess.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it this I don't know if I should trust it with because it itself says uh I should look it up.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: It says uh for Kastila's uh Zahil or Jehil, I don't know, whatever, uh, is privation of knowledge.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the word lands squarely in epistemic register, meaning lacking knowledge, not full in the sense of a boor or a moral degenerate, the one who lacks knowledge.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sayyidia generally handles Mishli's vocabulary folly this way.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And if you were tracking his lexical policy across the safer, it's worth checking what he does with uh that is a typo.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not maybe got mixed up from kayak, late evil, peace, naval in the in the surrounding chapter, since the differentiation here is where his reading shows itself.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um classical Arabic Jahil can also carry a connotation of rashness or hot-headedness, as in Jahiliya, but in Saudi's philosophical idiom, the intellectual sense is primary.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the kind of thing I'm like, huh.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we've had cases before where Claude points out that he's deliberately translating a puzzling and mishlay in accordance with a well-known Arabic proverb.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that's I think that's just good.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the preposition shifts from fitting for to becoming on, like meaning it's not becoming on you, right?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like uh, you know, like a uh beauty thing.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: The verb choice is a good match.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: The word nave is from the root of comeliness, like beauty, and chassan is chasan is the corresponding Arabic root of beauty and seemliness.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then this is funny, the soundplay is lost, the Hebrew kayat and qhatir are a near pair, and part of the sports is that the two out-of-season images are phonetically twined, twinned.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Arabic safe and chassad have no such relationship.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing Sa'di could have done about it, but it's a real loss.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, fine.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: All right, uh, so so basically we don't really get anything substantive from here, which is why uh Rufkaf and Amran Korok don't comment.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: The Targum says Ichtalga, Bakita, Beh Mitra, Bachath, Chatzdah, Hihna Lo Ya'a Lisifla Yakara.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Either Yah is just a uh straight up translation of Nava with the same ambiguity, or Yay means beautiful.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh I don't think there's any um I don't think there's anything we got from here.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let us now move on to questions.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry, not yet.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Art scroll, like snow in the summer and rain at the harvest, so does honor not be fit a fool.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: So this goes with the fitting rehearsed as snow in the summer and raining in the harvest, so is honor not befitting a fool.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Alter, like snow in the summer, like rain in the harvest, so is honor unfit for a fool.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they all go with the fitting translation, not the beauty one.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then Alter says, uh, he gives a little intro here.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is part of a whole series here of riddle form one-line proverbs.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: These are case.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: That is probably a typo on my part.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: These are, I don't know what the word was supposed to be, either as a paradoxical or puzzling image in the first verset.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: In this instance, what could possibly be as anomalous as snow in a warm season, or as an image so self-evident that the listener wonders why it should be mentioned at all?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just this next series.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long this series extends, but uh that's his take on what it is.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, now questions.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: So here, again, for those who are not familiar, we do only questions, no answers, questions and difficulties and problems.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we found, by the way, that with Mishlei, so just broad structures in Mishlay.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Mishlei, the way I count it is there are five sections in Mishle.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is, in fact, I could just go to my uh hold on.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: I could go to my syllabus.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think I put this in my syllabus.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Mislei, syllabus, because I'm teaching Michle in a bunch of classes this year.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, okay, so shout out to Nijah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so five sections, okay.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um one through nine, according to me, is the introduction to Mishle.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: According to Rabbi Zimmer, it's the essence of Michle, and everything else is an appendix.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he says.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so to me, it's the introduction to Michle.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: 10 through 24 is what I call the core of Mishle, because that is the standard every puzzle gives a proverb and it's written by Shlomo.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: 25 through 29, uh, I'm calling the second core of Mishle, if anyone has a better term for that.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: I want to convey that it is um it's the same nature as the first core, but uh it's written down by Andre Fischiavu.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: We've found that there's a difference in style, it's much more um proverbial, like you can actually like quote it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Also, we found that the um the questions are fewer.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, usually in a typical core puzzuk, you get a good like dozen to 16 questions.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then in a second core puzzle, we've only found like something six or seven questions.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Also, uh, I think it was the Miri who said that um there's a puzzle in we did last uh year in 25 that says uh Ramon's favorite Mishlay Puzzuk is like golden apples and silver lattice work.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So is a word fitly spoken.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we came up, we I think we spent like a week on that, uh or two weeks, two weeks, yeah, right.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the basic idea is that you've got two layers of every Mishlei Puzzle.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: You've got the gold, which is about perfection of the soul, intellectual perfection, and then you've got the silver lattice work, which is about everyday decision-making advice, about uh like maximizing benefit and minimizing consequences.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so the idea is that you you first encounter the silver, and that is the secondary value, but then you if you scrutinize it more, you can see the glimmers of the gold or the glint of the gold in there.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's really what Michle is for.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we had this cryptic term from the Miri that he says the second core widens the apertures and the ladders for it, like it widens the silver so you can see more gold.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we had a conclusion about what that meant, and I don't think we noticed anything from learning the Pasilkin, but just that's out there.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, 30 through 319 is what I call wacky Michle, which is just the strange, strange mushalin that is like a real mystery to me.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's it it's it's it is definitely more like riddles, all right.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then 3110 through 30 uh one is uh HS Kyle, that's the conclusion.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we are now in the second core of Michle.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, questions.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we're the reason why I said this is because we should not expect to be or based on experience, there are not a ton of questions here.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_09: What's the matter?
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_09: And why one, two?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the the uh the I'm gonna go say what's the relationship between the mushall and the nimshall?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then in so for why two, okay, why two mushallim?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I guess the question what are the possibilities, not in terms of decoding, but structurally, what are the possibilities here?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_11: Either there's I guess two separate mushallin, really, yeah, or they are two different aspects of one mushal.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so one is are these two separate mashalim or two facets of one mushall, or there's a third possibility.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's one again while I yeah, Ezra.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_10: Well, I was or I think I remember like by the hammer, the one one with that two terms that basically is the same.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, or just two uh uh like just two examples of exactly the same point.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Mocha.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_06: So it's two different Michelle two separate nymphs or um good question.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Theoretically, that's a possibility.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, the possibility.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And both that both could be expressed by low novel Xiel covered.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying usually.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, I don't know if there's a usual yet.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh well, I guess that's for us to find out.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, motion.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_06: I would just think chain would mean that there's something that's I mean, I would I would think a chain would mean that the initial would usually appear.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the little wrench in this or the little wrinkle is that um there is a maximum, there's a word count maximum for initial episode, not like an exact word count, but like it has to be able to be quoted like a proverb.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so so it could be that like he could have spelled this out um in more detail and stated it as tunimshalem, uh, but he didn't because it's like already too long, you know.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's uh for poetic reasons.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Ezra than Isaiah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_10: Um, just in terms of the potential differences, yeah.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_10: Matar is good at certain times, is shelling ever good?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh good question.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so um what are the um uh benefit detriment connotations of shelik and uh matar, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, like are are both bad or is matar you know, if I guess were both good in certain circumstances, um or time thing right, right, or or or good slash bad depending on the time, right?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because we don't usually think of a function for shallow other than skiing, which was not a thing back then.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, Benji.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_07: Um is like are those things being measured in terms of code, or is it just saying like just like code is out of place?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_07: When you say measured in that in terms of I guess NAVAT.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_07: Okay, are they saying those things are not NAVAT or just like those things are weird, some equivalency in that of not being NAVAT for code that we've seen?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to think how to formulate this.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, meaning that um meaning that oh sorry, I said I'm gonna call on Isaiah afterwards.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go Isaiah, you're next.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, are you saying that so low nave Luxil Kato seems to be absolutely saying is it is it like just as not correct as like the first half, second half also, or is it saying like in the same way, like the same quality of not nato?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right, okay.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So is the low nave um uh being said in the first half uh in the same way as in the second half, or is it just conveying that uh it's not nave?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's uh you know uh it's a hard question to write.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: Low nave um uh without any comment on how, right?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that not what you're saying?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_07: No, I'm saying like is it um is it just telling me the magnitude of it?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like is the comparison just in terms of magnitude in the same way that it's not nave for seal, it's also not nave for is it so is it not comparing the magnitude, or is it just not saying that it is not Nave is is low nave.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, uh Isaiah?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um maybe this is like taking a stand in a certain way, but like um it feels like a disconnect to me.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like the second half of the post seems like a negative, like a fully negative thing, like combat feel like a bad thing.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: But the first half seems like to me more on the neutral side.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe, maybe like I don't see what a negative effect do you think would have just seems like neutral.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go ahead and just uh tack that onto question three, which is that like um do you uh you know are any of these meant to convey a uh like neutrality?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if neutrality is the right word, but yeah, yeah, um yeah, motion.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_06: Uh what's the Hava Mina that there would be anything that would be fit for what is the Hava Amina?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, what is the Hava Amina that a covod that would be Nav Lexil?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah or that or really that there would be anything for a Xiel meaning.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that question I don't like because that seems to step outside of the subject of the puzzle.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right, in other words, like if you say, for example, um let's say let's say you had a positive how Lushanhara is harmful for relationships.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: So the Havamina is why would you think that it's not harmful for relationships?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: The Havamina is not why would you think it's bad at all?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: At all, like it's too broad, like like you know, to for for uh maybe not that's not the best example.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, Yoshi.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_09: Um I mean uh one is what's practical.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: What is the practical application, right?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh aka I'm gonna put here, so what, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well you say low novel?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine, great, it's not nine.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: So what do I do with it?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_09: Also, in terms of low novel skill cover, is this um is a really tough question?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_09: But like, is it saying like descriptively, or is it saying like um like is it is it saying that you you should not give him covered, he should not accept covered, right?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_09: Like what exactly is the relation between like facts?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So can so I do think that part of that straddles this question, but I think the other question is who is the audience, right?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right, who is the intended audience, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh is this for the person who is in a position to give covode uh to the Casil?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or I guess someone who is a I don't bystander is the wrong word here, but like who is I'm gonna say bystander, uh, when a XIL gets covod, right?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the only reason I'm saying it's not for the XEL himself is because Micheli doesn't talk to Xilon.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's uh that is a uh there's a lot of such a moment about that.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh but I could also say the closest what's the closest you can get to saying it's talking to the XEL?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the Xil on his way, uh yeah, uh yeah, or yeah, yeah, right, yeah, yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh or is it talking, is it talking to the the um the the would-be XEL?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, like if you are we are all would-be XELM at certain points, right?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we are inclined towards that way, then you know we should uh then it's for us, yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Isaiah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: What do we mean by covot in the podcast?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that is an important question.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: What uh does covod mean in this sense?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone want to bet?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Don't don't tell me if I'm right.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone want to bet on what Rashi's gonna say or what he is likely to say for what a covod is?
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, ain' covod elitora, right?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's a thing.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um also Rambam quotes this in not this exact puzzle, but I think a I think there's another puzzle very close to this coming up.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, Kitsur Evan Vamargema, Kenos and Lakzil Kavod.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: He quotes that for why you shouldn't teach Torah to someone who has bad midos.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um Tomashana Hagun.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Tomashano Hagun.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so um, but that's not Nada, but I I get but there he says ain't covered a la Torah, right?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I could see someone doing that here.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, other questions?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Benny.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_07: Is there anyone that translates uh the like covenant to a casil, not Nada?
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_07: Like he's gonna do it as Nava.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's interesting.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um how can we say this here?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, actually let's let's let's say this.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um to who no, okay.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Hold on a second.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: From whose perspective is the nave, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like from whose perspective is the nave?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is this being stated objectively?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um or um subjectively from the standpoint of other people or subjectively from the Castile's own standpoint?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_07: Presumably if that if that's the case, then he's not getting the number.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's another interesting thing about what is actually happening in the puzzle, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um so let's just say, I mean, I'll just use the the I'll deploy the the normal question.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: What is the decision-making scenario here, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: What exactly is happening?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And at what point chronologically is this puzzlook uh uh addressing, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, is this like when you are deciding whether to give the CLEO covode?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is it covod is on its way?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the CSEL already has covod?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Something like yeah, past, present, future, basically.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I feel like those are going to be the main questions.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, one other nuanced question, which I feel like most Mufarsion won't care about.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's a question uh within the mushroom, questions within the mushroom itself.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: You could just I mean it could just be what's the relationship between the the Nimshul and the mushroom, but so what I would say is what is uh the difference uh between kites and katire?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, uh Matsusion didn't really help us by saying the uh fig well he didn't help us by saying the fig drawing season.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is the kites.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he did not define khat here.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean khatir's harvest, but just I don't know in terms of the year when I mean because you pick uh you pick the figs early.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't you know anyone know what the the randomly know the verb for picking figs?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know there's like a different verb in Hebrew for every type of like protest what was that?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we do say that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like um so khatir is harvest.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm I'm assuming you're cutting down like standing cropped, crops, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh uh this is uh another version.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's open the floor for ideas.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: Just for the purposes of the the mushal.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_06: Are we treating whatever whatever is the relationship between Kai?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_06: Is there anything that's a relationship between Matar and Khazir?
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um so that I think is part of the question of are they two Michalin, two facets or one, or just saying Michalum of the thing that first half and the last half.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, no, no, no.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I think that in within the first half is the two Michalin.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: I guess I was um thinking like so, in terms of the Mashal, I think these are maybe two slightly different things.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like one rain rain, like I think we know and they knew that it was like very helpful the crops needed the rain to grow.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: And so having the crop having rain in the right time is like a thing that like creates benefit.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think maybe it's like it's a couple of beauty, which kind of like fits into the two different versions of NAVA.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um depending on so like covered when applied to the right person can create either like um it can help people grow or it can or it can just be like a beautiful thing to like, I guess, honor like some media.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like it is like it creates like a you know positive outcome from it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um but when it's applied to the wrong person, so then it it doesn't do those things.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like it it, I guess it fizzles, like it just fails to have that positive effect.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um so yeah, but if it's applied to the right person, so then it does do those things.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: It does the things that the snow and the rain would do if they were in the right situation.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, good.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I got almost all of it except for the in the uh the nimshall for covode being applied to the right person.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I understand how it's beneficial.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say it helps people, you know, helps people grow or like promotes you know good values or um or like uh you know um allow uh I guess um uh or whatever.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the uh I think that's the only thing that I can think of right now.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So but what what would be the beauty in the mushle?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like what's the like when you give it away?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean I I I can I feel like that's more subjective, maybe, but it's like a harmonious thing to see like covot applied to the people who deserve cavote.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's how I it's fitting.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I feel like I need something more for that.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I like the direction, I like the split.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: But um this would be so this would be an approach, by the way, just Mosha just clarify the terms here, of two separate Mashalin, right?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: That it's the first one's highlighting beauty, the second one's highlighting utility, and then we don't need to spell them out for seal for the second part because we just plug them in here.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, this is a good approach.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I feel like so.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Who is do uh does this point to an audience and a practical application?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Or and what's the Havamina?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that would that would really bring it home.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh sorry, just to clarify also, for the Havamina in Gemara, okay, it is a logical possibility, uh conceptual possibility.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Havamina in Mishle, it's more of an emotional Havamina that I would be inclined to feel or to act this way.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um does not necessarily have to be logical, it just has to be something that you'd actually be tempted to do or think.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I say what do you say?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think the Havamina is that like you should apply Kavot to every person, like every every uh Oh, that's interesting.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: Havodam, like every person deserves a certain amount of respect, but it like doesn't have a good effect that you give it to the wrong people.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's one approach to take for the Havamina.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have a different approach for that?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_08: These are like it's detrimental, like green and the harvest.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I would I that's where I thought he was gonna go, right?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But uh Isaiah, you're not saying it's detrimental, you're just saying it's not going to yield the benefit or the beauty.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um you think the havamina is that it would be worse than the pasta is saying it is?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, that's actually gonna be harmful.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's my understanding, which it might be a different approach.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or it might be a subdivision within this approach.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's actually take it as a subdivision within this approach, but I do want to say uh a different havamina, right?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So either you should give all people covod, or what would be another direct havamina?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh okay, two different things, or that you should give all Xilin covod.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: All I mean, that that like um, for example, um, you know, I don't know why this, I mean, I do know why, but the the what comes to my mind is you look at the people who our society gives covod to, and like the the one example is like like the Kardashians.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know the Kardashians are so popular, but like that's like uh I don't you know I don't know if they're mistaken, seal whatever, but like like there is a uh a value system by which you are giving like a class of people covod, qua xil, like as there, you know, like like you know qua is the sound a duck makes when he's truncated in his uh um qua is is like uh it's a fancy word for as like logical, like like like you know, um man qua man as opposed to man qua animal, like uh you know, man as a human being as opposed to man as like a uh uh an animal.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: All right, but I I won't say it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so uh the havmina is that you should give all people covered or you should give auxilin covered.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh sorry, give it to auxilin.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a more logical havmina that actually does come up, not not more logical, but uh a more statistically like common havmina that this is trying to refute.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Akiva?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: It'll just be the I mean maybe you'd think to give covet for some kind of action the the the syldi.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I'll I'll broaden this, or that you sh you know that that in general it's bad, but in a particular case, right, like i.e.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know, a particular person or situation, or for a specific reason, um it is good.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think depending on which hotmina you take, then this is gonna be a far you know, much, much uh it's gonna have a different mascana.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: Surprise, surprise.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_10: So maybe also we have to stop the mascana to happen.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_10: Maybe some hopmia that just basically doesn't matter.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not bad or it's just right, that it's inconsequential, right, right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: Or that it's inconsequential, right?
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, like like there are certain cases where we say, like, who cares if like this XEAL, if people think this XEAL is great?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like he's an idiot.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, like why should I care?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but but Kamash Alan knows it's detrimental or something like that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's another question, also, by the way.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: What is the practical application?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then um uh and then like uh you know uh who who whom to whom is the consequence uh harmful, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So what are the possibilities for to whom the the consequence is harmful?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: The XIL society, or yeah, or the the the the giver of cabo, right?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh of cavo, right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's another big thing.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oops sorry.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what brought this to mind is saying, like, like, okay, fine.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So like this XIL thinks he's great, but why should I care about that?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's explore what Schmuel was saying because I that's also the direction I was thinking.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Did you have an approach about like okay, no?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So what if we assume that it's so first of all, in the mushle, can you make an argument that it's harmful?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_09: Obviously.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_09: That's like the whole through whatever, but that destroys that the crops.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, that's incredibly right.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's just do the uh the uh uh uh altern alternative approach right here.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so rain in well, so let's be specific here, okay.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: What does snow in the kites do?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know we all are not agriculturalists, but like what what would you imagine happens?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've seen this in the news sometimes also, it does happen.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it destroys the crops, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: It destroys the growing crops.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So snow is that harvest it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we'll get to that in a second, right?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So snow in the um in the summer can kill the the growing crops, okay.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then what about the matar in the cotir?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And this you should know about from either Hilchoshabis or from Agriculture Sabres Rhyme stuff.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what like what's going on?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'll just leave it vague for now.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening to the uh in the cot here?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_09: CR is I mean you have the RCR crops now, so now it's gonna ruin the crops.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, mold.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, right.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_06: So um aren't they already like in some silo?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're not.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: So what they do is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is they cut down the let's say the wheat or the barley or whatever, they bind it, but it's all out in the open field, and they it starts drying then, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because while it's still growing then still moist, it starts drying, and then they process they they bring it back and then they process it through the all the pseudo or depots type thing, you know, and then and then they they store stuff in in silos.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if it so in other words, rain in the harvest season uh can har can uh harm the the the harvested crops uh by making them moldy.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: So those are two different kinds of harms here.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So now does that give us insight into uh yeah?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_09: I think it goes very well saying that like just like rain is this powerful thing, yeah, right, that can make these things grow when it's applied improperly, it's destructive.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, but so in the NIMTL it seems to be saying that by elevating the position of seal, right, you're now promoting like an anti, even if it's for a different purpose or legitimate purpose, yeah, right?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_09: Like seal is something very good.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, it did something really helpful.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, so so even if that's true, you're promoting an anti-clasma um either in society, you're promoting an anti-classma agenda, yeah.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_09: Saying that this person deserves elevation, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_09: Right, right.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_09: Um, or you're gonna put him in a position where now he's enabled to inflict seal nests on the case.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good, all right, good.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we're gonna have to list some of the ways here.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh so let's go like this.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: So um just as uh as uh I'm just trying to think if uh I don't think snow plays any role for benefiting like oh no, you know what it does, actually it does, right?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, so snow in the proper um regions like like mountains and stuff like that does contribute later on to um irrigation and and uh and and stuff like that.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: Snow like in certain regions like is necessary to be on the ground during the winter time to like cover up certain things so that when it melts, I don't know it's better for them.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess I I was um thinking specifically in Israel, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't think you could you tend to get enough snow to make any agricultural difference.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_09: I don't I mean the snow makes a difference in terms of specifically, I think, in the north, like it's a very difficult time.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right, for rain, right, right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Not like the actual like snow being on yeah.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: So just as meteorological, these just as these meteorological phenomena, um did we just see that kind of fall?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Not exactly a model, but I assume that cold represents like a more cold atmosphere than like the iceberg uh I'm missing your point.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, then then the floods in the fall star because probably it's they think uh part of a chunk of based on load.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but that's like a not that's not gonna happen in Israel, right?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_06: No, no, but snow in the right places in sustained environments such that the other negative stuff happens.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, I think that's an anomalous enough case with a glacial, uh a glacial shelf uh breaking off that I don't know if it's relevant here.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh so just as these meteorological phenomena are beneficial at the right time, but detrimental uh detrimental in the wrong time, okay, so two, giving covode to a XEL is detrimental.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we listed several, right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: Several ways, uh in several ways.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so one is that um so if it's for sorry, let's say even if it's for uh something that is truly covod worthy, um you are elevating the seal in his own eyes and in other people's eyes, okay.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thereby strengthening um uh I guess giving power to that value system, giving power to his value system.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um sis, yeah, system, right, okay.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, likewise, you are giving him more power to be able to inflict uh his seal like decisions on on uh a wider uh populace.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and then call the home error.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: I accidentally went to the wrong mode here.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: How am I in am in editing mode?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Closed.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Open.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, let's try that again.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, uh call call the home air if you're honoring him, sorry, honoring him for bad reasons, right?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that are directly um encur like uh uh you know encouraging his uh his foolishness.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_09: I don't know if that's a similar approach or not.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh hold on a second.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: One more oh yeah, actually you say your thing, it might be my thing.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_09: Um but I I was thinking that you might think he even split more Machiavellian approach, but like you might think remote extill manipulate him.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's another good Havmina, right?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_09: And and that he's easy to control, and therefore have an entire position makes him yeah, he's not very controlled or aware of his dynamics, and so therefore doesn't you control him and no, he's actually going at close harm.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, right, even if you think it you're you're gonna lose control of him.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Havamina, right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: So Hava Hava Hamina, right?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: So is um you might think that you can safely and effectively use covod to manipulate uh the Xil, okay, in a in a Machiavellian sense.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Machiavellian sense.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um Kamash Milan, um meaning Machiavellian, like like political uh manipulation to maximize power and you you know, like uh plotting behind the scenes, that kind of thing.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Kamash Milan, um he's a Xil, right?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and his decisions might thwart might thwart the very Machiavellian uh Machiavellian um strategies uh you intended to implement, right?
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and uh and cause worse harm, right?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think undeniably, a Xil in power is just way more harmful than a Xil who's not in power, right?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_06: Could you classify that as a relationship between Haman and Akash Viros?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I my I was thinking about that in my mind.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um Haman was not a Xiel, Haman was a Russia.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: So Akash Virosh, um oh, so you mean when are you talking about Haman's manipulation of Akashvirosh?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Can we do that?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if it's a Xiel though, yeah.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: But is there a case where Haman?
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to think if there's any case even where Haman gives him cover.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think there's any case like that, right?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: He already is has a position.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_09: I mean when oh no, that's not giving him right.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_09: Yeah, it's given one of his cover.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't think that uh that works out.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be nice though.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, uh one example of this is that, you know, again, I don't know what people's current uh views are about Trump, but certainly everyone, supporters and detractors, made this mistake in certain times, right?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: That they thought that if they could put him, align him into a position where he can benefit them, and then he went and did something that was impulsive and it ended up backfiring, right?
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, like I think that's happened to like every group that supports him in some in some case, you know.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that I think that was that was the uh, you know, and I I think he is a he is a XEL, whether you say he's a beneficial XEL or not, like I think that's the uh and then but I think this is the mistake.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think like a lot of people were like, you know, like I I know um uh you know Sam Harris is always saying that that a lot of the people who a lot of the Jews who uh voted for Trump uh because he was pro-Israel, um failed to factor in what happens when Qatar just gives him an airplane, or like if you know, it was Sam Harris was always saying, like, like if only the the the the bad guys in the Middle East had just said we're gonna build uh uh uh you know billions of dollars worth of Trump hotels and golf courses, it would have just changed over.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and we we have a lot of track record of that.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's just very easily that's a CSE, it's very easy to like manipulate for his Kastil reasons.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't think he's gonna be like uh you know maintaining your value system just because you put him in power.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Benny.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_07: So then it's a good column because it explains why it's a Casil and not like the Russia.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, a lot of the other reasons could apply to Russia with bad bad values, whatever.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying for this specific one, right, right.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: This accounts uh very well for why this is a uh about a CSEL um and not someone someone like a Russia, um uh because um you don't people don't tend to think people don't tend to think of the Russia as being you know manipulable, right?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one is really going around seriously saying like I'm gonna control Putin, like in his cabin.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you want to do that, like fine.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: But like I think like he is he, you know, or or like it's I don't know, it's like a much not that you not that people who are close by don't do that, but XEL is just like like you just think he's like a puppet in your hands, you know, it's much easier to do.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um anyone have a different approach?
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah, yeah, maybe a little bit different.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_08: Sure.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_08: So I'm going to oh I could just think I'm gonna take that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_08: Uh snow, so we send facts a little bit like uh that snow is bad for the kites for the um the development crops, and it the rain is for the for the grown crops, right?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_08: Because it's gonna cost bowl.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_08: Let me take the metaphor.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_08: So it's saying just like snow is bad for the crops in the in the harvest and the rain in the summer and the rain in the harvest, so too is it not fitting for the XEA, who is the the the produce we need eat development.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: Ah, okay, so the XEAL's development, yeah, right.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words, um, sorry, sorry, let me go back.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: So so too.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, let me I'll I'll say each one.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: So just as shellig is bad for the developing the growing crops, okay, so too, covod is bad for the developing Xiel.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a good uh analogy um in terms of Xiel, but like this is why uh those who are teaching, it is very tempting when you have a student who gets something like 90% correct to like encourage them.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: And but what you're doing is you're also encouraging the standard that 90% correct is okay, you know.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it is uh very important to like reinforce you know things that are gonna be good for the development.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing in sports, right?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you are doing a technique poorly and you're rewarded for that by praise, it's just gonna be enforced that bad technique.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a very that's not even a XEL, but you know, again, with an actual Xiel, you could be stunting his development by may by rewarding him for for you know giving him cover there, right?
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um there is a low level coverov covered, yeah, the Ekra or Rav.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but giving it to a KSEL, especially in its development, is going to stunt it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: For example, um, there is a healthy use of covod.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know I know we're gonna stop in a little while.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: Covod for uh low level purposes.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you dispense that at the wrong time or in the wrong way or with the wrong person, it'll just stoke his ego uh and and reinforce the bad uh the bad habits.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_06: I mean so and that yeah, are you saying that you wouldn't come to like you wouldn't know you're gonna do with with the seal and getting him honor?
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_08: Or is it no supportive to his development?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so tomorrow we'll do a quick review and then look at the mapartium and delete and editor.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for coming.