Latest / Ministry Minded / Cracked Pots, Hidden Treasure, and What Nobody Tells You About Pastoral Ministry with Raphael Mnkandhla

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Cracked Pots, Hidden Treasure, and What Nobody Tells You About Pastoral Ministry with Raphael Mnkandhla · Ministry Minded

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:15
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:17
  in our messy
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: ministries.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm of course your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:21
  I serve as the senior pastor at Stonington Baptist Church in
• 0:24
  Paxanus,
• 0:25
  Pennsylvania.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this particular episode,
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  I'm so excited to share an episode that actually got to record
• 0:31
  with my friend and
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: brother in ministry,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Raphael M.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Candla.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Raphael pastors City Church up in Williamsport,
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  SPEAKER_01: Pennsylvania,
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  SPEAKER_01: where he's been for several years now.
• 0:42
  We love talking about ministry and pastoral theology and
• 0:45
  writing and church
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: history,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: among many other things,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: of course.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we were both profoundly impacted by the same book.
• 0:53
  In fact,
• 0:53
  the book that I have in my hands right now is called The Clay
• 0:56
  Pot Conspiracy.
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  SPEAKER_01: by Dave Harvey.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: This book is just a tremendous resource for pastors,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: pastors who are going through good times or rough times.
• 1:05
  Whatever season of ministry you are in,
• 1:08
  this book that Dave Harvey has authored is
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: has a profound message for you,
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: one that will point you to Jesus,
• 1:17
  the one who uses battered and broken and beaten up individuals
• 1:22
  to share his mercy
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: to his sheep.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: is just a tremendous book.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a book that has so much to say.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: It covers so much ground.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is all hooked around all of these different moments of awe,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: moments of discovery,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: moments in which we are actually having our
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: The Clay Podcast
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Post Restack Bradley Gray
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Post Restack Bradley Gray
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  SPEAKER_01: Post Restack Bradley
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  SPEAKER_01: in their particular callings,
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  but especially as they interact with this book and as they
• 2:46
  resort to the Word of
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  God ultimately as their refuge in places of difficulty and
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  whenever they're
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  SPEAKER_01: entering a season such as David.
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  SPEAKER_01: So anyways, sit back and relax.
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  SPEAKER_01: Raphael and I have just a tremendous time,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: a great time talking about this book,
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  SPEAKER_01: The Clay Pot Conspiracy by Dave Harvey.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't gotten this book yet,
• 3:08
  you might benefit just by having this either whet your appetite
• 3:11
  or listen along as
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: you read along.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: You might benefit from that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: But sit back and relax.
• 3:17
  Enjoy this episode as Raphael and I talk about the clay pot
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  conspiracy and pastoral ministry.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, thank you so much for joining us.
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  My name is Rafael with Fueled Pastoral Resilience and I've got
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  a guest today.
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  SPEAKER_00: Brad, could you just introduce yourself?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm Brad Gray.
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  SPEAKER_01: I host the Ministry Minded Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of writing over at Grace Upon Grace and Rafael is my brother.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm delighted to do this episode with you, man.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Brad and I, we are fellow pastors and we've been working.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've been at City Church for 11 years,
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  SPEAKER_00: going to 12 years now,
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: but been in full-time ministry for at least seven years.
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  SPEAKER_00: 20 years now.
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  SPEAKER_00: So and as a result of that, you know, ministry has not been easy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Would you kind of just like Brad, where you at?
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  And then like,
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  just maybe just give a little bit of a background in terms of
• 4:20
  your ministry.
• 4:22
  Yeah,
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  so I'm in about an hour south of you,
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  you know,
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  in a place called Paxinus.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's where my church is.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's Doington Baptist Church.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been there since 2019.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I got installed as the pastor here just before
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  COVID happened the year that shall not be named and ever since
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  then I've been
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  serving the Lord in so many different ways a lot of different
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  capacities and as
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  SPEAKER_01: you've said ministry is something that
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  I think it's it's apt the the title for your podcast pastoral
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  resilience this this
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  notion of how do pastors sort of stay in the trenches and I
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  feel like the last
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  couple years I've had to learn that the hard way but I think
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  that kind of comes it
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  kind of comes with the gig I think in a lot of ways yeah yeah
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  so so we picked up a
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  SPEAKER_00: book
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  and the book is called Clayport Conspiracy and that's the one
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  that we just want to
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  kind of talk about today and this book basically just like as I
• 5:31
  picked it up it
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  resonated a lot with me and it resonated with with you Brad as
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  well yeah so when
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  SPEAKER_00: whenever maybe just the first question as we jump into this is
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  When you read the title Clayport Conspiracy What's your gut
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  reaction that comes
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  SPEAKER_00: just as you saw it and then before you even jumped into it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  my gut reaction is that this guy has a clever way to title his
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  books The Clay Pot
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  SPEAKER_01: Conspiracy.
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  By the way,
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  I should add that this was a book that you really were like
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  cajoling me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I remember you were
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  SPEAKER_01: David Pérez
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  SPEAKER_01: When I think of the clay pot conspiracy,
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  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
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  like many who are perhaps familiar with pastoral epistles or
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  Paul's letters in the
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  SPEAKER_01: New Testament,
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  SPEAKER_01: your mind would probably go to 2 Corinthians 4,
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  SPEAKER_01: where Paul talks about how
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  We Have This Treasure In Jars Of Clay Which I Think Is Very Apt
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  But I Also Think
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  What The Author Dave Harvey Sort Of Gets At Throughout His Book
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  Is Just The Notion
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  Of Clay Being This Very Fragile Material It'S A Material That
• 7:18
  Is Susceptible To
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  SPEAKER_01: Cracks And To Weaknesses And I Think That'S Not An Unintentional
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  um paradigm or or image that Paul uses and that Dave is using
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  in this book it's
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  actually very apt for pastors because as he presses home I
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  think quite often
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  throughout the book is the nature and the notion of pastoral
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  ministry is weakness
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  and dependence and fragility which drives faith and this is
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  kind of one of the
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  SPEAKER_01: things that I think is so um
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  So beautiful about what Dave is articulating here is that the
• 7:54
  way that we've come
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  SPEAKER_01: to view what it means to be a leader,
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  SPEAKER_01: to be a ministry leader,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially is perhaps opposite.
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  SPEAKER_01: of what the actual scriptures convey,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially Paul,
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  SPEAKER_01: as he is often talking about weakness,
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  and he's talking about the places that are actually opposite of
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  like efficiency and
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  SPEAKER_01: clarity.
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  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley
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  SPEAKER_01: A beautiful view of the pastoral ministry and the pastoral call,
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  SPEAKER_01: but actually a more hopeful one as well.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  The first time I looked at this book,
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  I was thinking about all the conspiracies.
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  SPEAKER_00: Just like,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: man,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: and just basically what you're saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: the whole idea that like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  Like that day is a like basically like ministry comes with its
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  own kind of
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  conspiracy that as soon as you're platformed you have to have
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  it all together you
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  SPEAKER_00: have to look like
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  SPEAKER_00: Basically, you stop being a sinner saved by grace.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're actually now more saint than sinner, basically.
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  SPEAKER_00: But yet realizing that when the Lord calls you to ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: He's calling you just as you are knowing.
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  SPEAKER_00: Knowing that like you don't have it together,
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  SPEAKER_00: but inviting you on the pathway of sanctification.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he uses ministry for that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, what got me when I opened this book was
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  Just in the forward the whole idea that like ministry is not a
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  cruise that we sign
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  in up for like you know when you sign up for a cruise like you
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  go there and you sit
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  SPEAKER_00: down and you get served and all
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  SPEAKER_00: and all that stuff.
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  SPEAKER_00: And he says basically,
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  the first awakening you get is that you sign up as if you're
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  signing up for a
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  SPEAKER_00: cruise,
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  SPEAKER_00: but you're awakened to the fact that it's actually a battleship,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: It's a battleship.
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  SPEAKER_00: And basically just all your expectations,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: that you thought maybe ministry was just go out.
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  And then so I loved like what Dane Odland even said in his
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  foreword that the
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  SPEAKER_00: cynical pastor has scars,
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  SPEAKER_00: but no laughter.
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  the frothy pastor is laughter but no scars and then then
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  basically then like a
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  healthy pastor is meant to have acute pain in his life and then
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  a joyful gleam
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  right where there's that aspect of just that dance between
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  sorrowful and yet always
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  rejoicing so yeah that's that's just as I was thinking about
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  the clay pot I was
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  SPEAKER_00: thinking about that that man that's that's a
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  Yeah,
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  that's something that I'm realizing more and more when I'm
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  getting into ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: But here's the thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't have any pastors in my family.
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  SPEAKER_00: Was your dad honest about these things?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because your dad is a pastor, right?
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  Like,
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  was he upfront about like,
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  hey,
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  son,
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  you are signing up for a street fight.
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  SPEAKER_00: No one's going to fight fair.
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  They're going to throw sand in your eyes and punch you while
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  you're trying to clean your eyes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think my dad did a good job of doing that eventually.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like when I was younger,
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  he really tried to protect myself and my siblings from some
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  times when he went
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  SPEAKER_01: through the ringer.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was put through the ringer by even some of his own,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: fellow church leaders that he was leading alongside of in his church.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, like the typical...
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  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley Grace
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  SPEAKER_01: Todd was very honest with me,
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  and it's an honesty that I think is hard to tap into because
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  there is a way in
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  SPEAKER_01: which you can approach this,
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  SPEAKER_01: which I think Dave does really well in the book,
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  which is you can kind of look back on all of these places where
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  you've been cut or
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  SPEAKER_01: you've been bruised,
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  SPEAKER_01: you've been beaten,
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  SPEAKER_01: you've been slandered,
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  SPEAKER_01: and you can look at it and you can see it through a lens of cynicism.
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  and it can make you really cynical it can make you really
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  calloused towards either
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  the church or to people in the church or to this whole thing
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  called pastoral
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  ministry at large or you can see it as I would sort of
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  understand it through the
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  lens of like this sinner saint reality right like you know
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  Luther and what he's
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  articulating through simul justus et peccator that we are
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  simultaneously justified
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  SPEAKER_01: yet sinners
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  This reality helps us understand that the sheep that we are
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  called to minister to
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  SPEAKER_01: aren't and never will be perfect sheep.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're never going to behave appropriately.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're never going to be free from rebellion or rejection or slander.
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  SPEAKER_01: But we can still have
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  Grace for them because God has grace for us in the midst of all
• 13:58
  of those same sorts of things.
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  And so I think where I think the clay pot conspiracy is most
• 14:06
  helpful is probably
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  SPEAKER_01: that chapter on Church Hurt,
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  SPEAKER_01: but also just the theme throughout the whole book,
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  SPEAKER_01: which talks about the notions of brokenness,
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  SPEAKER_01: of weakness,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the ways in which that's where God is working.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's where God has always been working.
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  And it's not abnormal to go through those seasons of difficulty
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  or frustration.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's part and parcel of what it means to be a shepherd.
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  SPEAKER_01: Being a shepherd means, A, you're going to
• 14:38
  Stink Like Sheep and B you're probably going to have those
• 14:41
  sheep bite you at one
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  time or another and C you're probably going to have to run
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  after a few strays
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  that's just kind of part of the gig it's not surprising and it
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  shouldn't catch us
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  off guard and there's grace for weary shepherds just as there
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  is grace for wayward
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  SPEAKER_01: sheep and I think that it's
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  SPEAKER_01: It's easy to give in to cynicism.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think part of the labor is remaining hopeful,
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  SPEAKER_01: even as you are feeling so much strain for the church.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you feel this, Raf.
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  SPEAKER_01: You want to see people grow and thrive,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: and then they're making mistake after mistake,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: and then you realize,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's just like me.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I've said this before in a couple of different venues,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm always struck by in Second Corinthians 11,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: where Paul is like listing,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: all of the things he's endured,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: the beatings and shipwrecks and having people slander him,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: all those kind of things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then he gets to the end of that list.
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  And he's like,
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  on top of all of that,
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  the anxiety I feel for all the churches like
• 15:53
  And it's not just like a throwaway thing I think that this is
• 15:55
  the thing that keeps
• 15:56
  Paul up the most What keeps Paul up the most Isn't the things
• 16:01
  that he's endured
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  personally It's the anxiousness The angst that he feels For the
• 16:06
  churches to grow
• 16:08
  and thrive And love the mystery of Christ And the message of
• 16:13
  the gospel And so you
• 16:16
  can sense that same thing Like of anyone that had excuses To
• 16:20
  become cynical towards
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: the church Paul did
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  SPEAKER_01: And he didn't end up becoming that way.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
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  Because he was just enthralled by the mystery of Christ,
• 16:28
  the presence of grace and Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think we can learn a lot from that.
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  And I think the clay pot conspiracy does a great job of
• 16:36
  articulating that message
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  SPEAKER_01: for the modern pastor.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think about the,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: as you were mentioning that,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Galatians chapter 4,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think verse 18 and 19 says,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: My little children in whom I am in travail.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: and anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you.
• 16:58
  There is an image for all of us who've had children who've been
• 17:04
  in that room.
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  SPEAKER_00: They say that men could not endure that today.
• 17:12
  You know,
• 17:13
  but like that's what Paul says that like this is his anxiety is
• 17:18
  like that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's an anguish of childbirth.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so what Dave Harvey does say here, he uses this expression.
• 17:29
  Weakness Plus God's Power Is Equals To Resilient Ministry Our
• 17:35
  Weakness Plus God's
• 17:37
  Power And so he calls that actually the if there was actually a
• 17:42
  thesis of the book
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: or the center of the book or what really the conspiracy is
• 17:49
  is that it's not it's not our power plus God's power is because
• 17:55
  the resilient
• 17:56
  ministry which is like you know your productivity your you got
• 18:01
  it together or best
• 18:03
  resume all that stuff he says actually it's the other way it's
• 18:07
  uh it's our weakness
• 18:09
  plus God's power um and really just and he says that from here
• 18:14
  from that um
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: From that vantage point, you get to see just like wonders, right?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: These are the wonders that you get to see.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And, and obviously gives us a couple of wonders, which is I would love to
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: to actually unpack them.
• 18:34
  But I was thinking about that because I grew up in Zimbabwe and
• 18:40
  I was a couple of
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: hours away from,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: like for you guys,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: you have Niagara Falls here,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: we have three hours from where we are.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I was a couple of hours away from the Victoria Falls,
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  SPEAKER_00: one of the natural,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's one of the seven wonders of the world.
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  and I think about the fact that almost 4 million people plus a
• 19:04
  year go to see this
• 19:07
  big waterfall makes Niagara Falls look like nothing and so that
• 19:13
  probably is the
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: first thing where I was like you mean weakness weakness
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: is,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:20
  is the platform through which I can see the wonders of Christ's
• 19:26
  mystery and what
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: he's doing in me.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: like my recoil,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: like I was like,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if this is what I signed up for.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So how did you interact with that, with that equation?
• 19:42
  And then we'll jump into some of these,
• 19:44
  some of these,
• 19:46
  these wonders that he has.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: that equation I think is a very helpful way,
• 19:52
  a very succinct and concise way to understand what Paul gets at
• 19:56
  at the end of 2
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Corinthians 12,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: obviously.
• 19:59
  And it reminds me of something that I think it's John Piper
• 20:02
  once said where he's
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: brothers,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: we aren't professionals.
• 20:06
  and I think he has like a post or like an essay that where he
• 20:10
  talked maybe it was a
• 20:11
  conference talk about that but yeah and it reminds me of what
• 20:14
  Dave actually says
• 20:16
  this is from page 23 of the book where he says cheer up looking
• 20:21
  polished was never
• 20:22
  the point whether you know it or not a life where weakness
• 20:25
  reveals dependence upon
• 20:27
  God has always been the point of your call to leadership and I
• 20:33
  love that notion
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: because
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: In the 2026 modern world in which we live,
• 20:43
  where a lot of ministry is driven by what is flashy or trendy
• 20:49
  or what's going to
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: look good on social media,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: whether we know it or not,
• 20:56
  I think we are often informed by what is going to make us look
• 21:02
  more polished than
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: not.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is just part of the world that we live in.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even just besides ministry,
• 21:09
  there's all these kinds of studies that are being done about
• 21:11
  how the generation
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: underneath us,
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: they are growing up in a world where they don't want to sort of maintain
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley
• 21:33
  You can understand how that's informing the way that we are so
• 21:37
  concerned about
• 21:38
  reputation about looking polished about looking professional
• 21:42
  all the time and again
• 21:43
  this is not to disabuse anyone of the notion that we should
• 21:46
  pursue excellence we
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: should but actually
• 21:50
  They're like when you when you get down to we could say the
• 21:53
  nitty gritty when you
• 21:54
  get to where the rubber meets the road of what it looks like to
• 21:57
  be a pastor on the
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: ground,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: it actually is going to appeal a lot more,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: a lot more fractured,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: a lot more broken,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: a lot more,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: less polished than I think we perhaps would would want to admit.
• 22:12
  And maybe I'll ask you this question,
• 22:15
  where are some ways that you've you have felt the pressure
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: to sort of appear more polished or stronger than you actually are.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because I felt it in just like the ways of like keeping this schedule up,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: like the constant grind of sermon prep and meeting and visiting,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: visiting with people and being available.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like this, it's this never ending turn of responsibility.
• 22:43
  And I think what actually is really helpful is conversations
• 22:46
  like this or like
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: stuff that we've had,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: not even being recorded,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: where it's just like,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: brother pastor,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: here's,
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: here's why I'm weak.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And here's why I'm failing.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: And those are, that's, I think, what is, what is so
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've always often thought about...
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just the pressure that's there on a weekly basis,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: specifically when you get into that event of the communications,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: the Sunday service,
• 23:40
  and you're moving lanes from people who have spent so much time
• 23:47
  in a consumeristic
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: model of life
• 23:51
  and then they switch lanes and they walk into Sunday morning
• 23:54
  and that pressure to
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: make sure everything is perfect.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: is always there.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But yet, somehow, something always goes wrong.
• 24:08
  And so that's now where I think I see the wonder number one is
• 24:16
  that the treasure stored in clay.
• 24:25
  I see the clay part of it Sunday afternoon when I look at all
• 24:31
  the things that went
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: wrong and I find myself maybe just like
• 24:38
  You know,
• 24:39
  obviously like sometimes going back into this mode of,
• 24:44
  you know,
• 24:44
  I need get better.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: We need to, you know, this shouldn't happen again.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously like, but yet this is something that's organic.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that's...
• 24:56
  you know where the Lord is constantly just having to meet me
• 24:59
  back back again in
• 25:01
  terms of like where I have to now kind of zoom out and then
• 25:06
  realize that like I'm
• 25:07
  stressing about something so small like that and like and then
• 25:12
  maybe a brother or
• 25:13
  sister gets to walk up to me and say that like the Lord really
• 25:17
  spoke to me through
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: that word through this through that and just realize that like
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, God, you're working in me.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're working in me just as much as you're working in them.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, because that's the thing there.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think Dave said this.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a page number.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Leadership was never about exalting our strengths.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: God's plan was always to deliver his strength through our weaknesses.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in that first wonder,
• 25:52
  he basically says that there's two things that really are going
• 25:56
  to be very
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: important.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's our inadequacy and then our vulnerability.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: where there's just that aspect where,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I think I feel it more right before I go up to preach.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like where I've looked across the room and I'm like,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm overwhelmed by all the problems I know are there in the room.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's addictions,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: marriage problems,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: parenting problems,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: like just,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about like,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: economic problems,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: all the things.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I am just like in that very moment,
• 26:40
  like overwhelmed by my inadequacy to actually like to meet
• 26:45
  those needs by myself.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: and recognize.
• 26:49
  And then basically,
• 26:51
  I think it was John Piper who basically introduced me to the
• 26:56
  Uptat,
• 26:57
  right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like where you are exchanging your inadequacy for his adequacy.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're saying, Lord, I'm not adequate to meet this.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: So he says, you admit, you admit that you need him.
• 27:12
  And then you pray,
• 27:14
  you ask for help,
• 27:15
  and you trust in a certain scripture.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I always just have to say, Lord, pick up a promise.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, your word does not return void.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It accomplishes what you call it to accomplish.
• 27:33
  The cross withers The flower fades But your word endures
• 27:38
  forever And then you act
• 27:40
  from there But just recognizing That you're very vulnerable At
• 27:45
  that moment And
• 27:47
  you're so inadequate To meet the needs of the people And that's
• 27:53
  actually How I
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: interacted with this Recognizing that like Man,
• 27:58
  it's usually after that That's when I actually thank God After
• 28:02
  that I'm like
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, I thought that was going to be a doozy.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: You met me.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your people encouraged.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: The saints were edified.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Your gospel truth rang true into the hearts of the people.
• 28:18
  And then so that dance,
• 28:21
  you know,
• 28:22
  it's a wonder because after that you're like,
• 28:26
  Lord I just don't think I'm the guy half of the time you know
• 28:31
  there's like after
• 28:32
  church you always think like God use somebody else and God is
• 28:36
  like nope my strength
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: is made perfect through your weakness let's go you know so yeah yeah
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me,
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel and I've written about this recently,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: is I feel my inadequacies,
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: mainly when I'm done preaching.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I poured myself out.
• 28:55
  And then that's when I realized the things I could have said or
• 28:59
  could have said
• 29:00
  better or the ways in which man like I feel like that just like
• 29:04
  totally bombed.
• 29:05
  and it it's a good reminder that this as we're talking about
• 29:10
  this first wonder
• 29:11
  there's a storehouse of grace and treasures in these clay jars
• 29:16
  these clay pots like
• 29:17
  we are just vessels we are just conduits of what actually God
• 29:21
  wants to get out to
• 29:22
  people and it's not my words that don't return void it's God's
• 29:26
  words they will
• 29:27
  never return void and and I think that is a very very hopeful
• 29:30
  thing and so like
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm done preaching,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: it's just like I'm having to preach to myself that,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: that number one,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm justified in Christ and number two,
• 29:41
  that actually my weakness is my credential when it comes to my
• 29:45
  effectiveness for
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Christ.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I like his quote on page number 14.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Dave says,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: He says,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Paul flips the script on his detractors by saying,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: you think my weakness disqualifies me,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: but it's actually my core credential.
• 29:58
  And this kind of is owed to what Paul does throughout his
• 30:01
  second Corinthians
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: letter,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: where the whole time that
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's these,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: like group of super apostles,
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
• 30:08
  that are sort of trying to undermine and diminish Paul's
• 30:11
  ministry and his apostolic
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: authority by saying,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: look at the ways he suffers.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the ways that he's failed.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Look at the ways that he's not always
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: Pastor Bradley
• 30:38
  when when as you were saying what are some these ways that we
• 30:43
  can see this clay at
• 30:46
  life in our lives maybe I was thinking like like when we mess
• 30:51
  up a word in a sermon
• 30:52
  or when like there's an error in the PowerPoint when there's
• 30:56
  just you know someone
• 30:57
  doesn't know what to do when it comes to communion like do I
• 31:01
  pass this or what it's
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: just like those little things are good reminders of the fact that
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: We are not as polished as we think And guess what,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: that's okay That's okay,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: yeah Yeah,
• 31:13
  it's some of those things That like I've had to take comfort in
• 31:20
  Just for example
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the funniest part I always think about like
• 31:26
  I take my kids let's say I come back from the gym you know I
• 31:30
  take my kids I put
• 31:31
  them somewhere and I have to go and I'm looking for these kids
• 31:36
  like and I cannot
• 31:38
  find them and then the back of my head back of my mind I'm like
• 31:43
  and some people
• 31:44
  call you pastor bro like this like some people call you and you
• 31:51
  are just totally
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: like it's just one of those I'm like I'm a mess
• 31:56
  But yet the Lord still has chosen and there's just a way in
• 32:00
  which it's like man
• 32:02
  just chill bro like just chill and which is really like what
• 32:07
  takes us even into
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: wonder number two and even like just like where
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he says, you know, basically death produces life, right?
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then even like basically just like a number three as well,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: let repentance stroke resilience.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so how did you interact with at least those two there?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:35
  Yeah I was really moved especially by wonder number two because
• 32:40
  I've always been
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: struck by what Paul says and I can't remember whether it's in 1st or 2nd
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Corinthians where he talks about
• 32:48
  um that there's like even he and his ministry team they have
• 32:54
  like sort of the the
• 32:55
  marks of death on like you can kind of and whether that's like
• 32:59
  being literal or
• 33:00
  whether that's being figurative you get this sense this notion
• 33:04
  that death and
• 33:05
  resurrection especially the death and resurrection of Christ
• 33:07
  isn't just some
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: ethereal amorphous thing
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually this very real reality for Paul.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: He's felt it,
• 33:17
  whether it's through the bruises on his body or whether you can
• 33:22
  feel it when he's
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: preaching and he's conveying.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's by my old professor preaching.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Basically,
• 33:54
  he uses that same thing that basically your sermon prep and
• 34:00
  everything is using
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: that whole poll where Paul says that we're dying,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: but yet you are coming to life.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Dying to preach.
• 34:13
  Dying to Preach yeah I was trying to find the title I had to
• 34:15
  find the title so
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Dying to Preach messed me up bro
• 34:20
  That's another book that we could talk about but the same
• 34:23
  notion that the author of
• 34:25
  Dying to Preach gets at is what Dave is getting at here which
• 34:28
  is that in order for
• 34:31
  a pastor to be effective we don't resist suffering and we don't
• 34:37
  resist dying to our
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: wants,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: our needs,
• 34:41
  our desires all of those things that often we would be filled
• 34:45
  with those are
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: crucified
• 34:48
  We can say those are left for dead so that the life of the
• 34:52
  church can blossom and
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: flourish and thrive.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And this is obviously something that Jesus gets at.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: As we're recording this, I'm getting ready to preach on Palm Sunday.
• 35:03
  So I've been reading through John chapter 12 and I've been
• 35:07
  struck also by what
• 35:08
  Jesus says to the crowds that have greeted him as he's going
• 35:12
  into the city that
• 35:13
  actually he is going to be the fruit that dies or the seed that
• 35:18
  dies so that fruit
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: can spring from it and that same notion that Jesus conveys
• 35:25
  is the same pattern that ought to fill the hearts and the lives
• 35:30
  of the minister
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: that we die in order for fruit to be harvested.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: it's actually the,
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was going to,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: I pulled it up here because he says,
• 35:41
  now we have this treasure in jars of clay so that this
• 35:45
  extraordinary power may be
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: from God,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: not from us,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: who are afflicted in every way,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: but not crutched or perplexed,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: but not in despair.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Persecuted, not abandoned, were struck down, not destroyed.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: We are always carrying the death of Jesus in our body so that life,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: the life of Jesus may also be displayed in our body.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: For we who live are always being given over to death,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: so that Jesus may always be displayed in our mortal flesh.
• 36:20
  And it's just like,
• 36:21
  and so he says,
• 36:21
  so then death is at work in us,
• 36:24
  but life in you.
• 36:27
  And that is the hard part there where,
• 36:32
  you know,
• 36:33
  if basically you signed up
• 36:35
  for Ministry and Ministry had a slogan of the Mandalorian
• 36:41
  slogan,
• 36:42
  this is the way.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: It would literally just be like,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: in order for people to live,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to have to go down into the valley and share with Christ and
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: participate,
• 36:56
  which is really what the doctrine of union with Christ really
• 37:00
  then calls us to.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: You participate with Him.
• 37:05
  And then that weakness is the stage where Christ's power shines
• 37:11
  through us instead
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: of actually strength.
• 37:14
  But yet at the same time,
• 37:16
  like that's what like strength is,
• 37:17
  what's actually like strength.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: what's exalted today, right?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is what Dave Harvey said.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: He pulled a Sam Storm's quote here that says there is always desire
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm going to talk to you about this.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: So basically like he says,
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: and Dave says,
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: my weakness is God's plot,
• 37:56
  his fruit bearing plan and the hard yet wonderful vehicle
• 38:01
  through which his power
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: and through which his power would flow.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just, I love that, like, and he deepens that resilience towards
• 38:12
  equation where he says that like your suffering is not an
• 38:16
  obstacle to resilience.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's designed to produce strength to finish well.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, that, that's, I, this was hard to swallow.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: it just like,
• 38:29
  you mean that cause like at this point you and I have suffered
• 38:34
  quite a lot,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: even in ministry.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 38:39
  But yet to think about even this is actually basically even the
• 38:43
  future is even like
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: you're called even to more.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to kind of look at it and say,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I saw death happen and I came out of it,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's actually like,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: for me,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: it was losing my father,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: some very,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: very hard ministry,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: ministry seasons.
• 39:08
  you know my wife getting cancer you know difficult seasons in
• 39:13
  terms of foster care
• 39:14
  adoption and all that stuff and then I was thinking about the
• 39:20
  fact that like it's
• 39:21
  so easy for me to think about about this and then kind of just
• 39:25
  like give a million
• 39:27
  nods to this when it relates to the past stuff yeah but when
• 39:35
  you start thinking
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: about like hey
• 39:39
  this is going to be in the future there's part of me where I'm
• 39:42
  just like you know
• 39:43
  it's almost like it's hard to swallow right yeah so yeah I
• 39:51
  don't know how you
• 39:52
  interacted with that yeah I was just struck again by so there's
• 39:57
  this pattern
• 39:58
  obviously that we're following you know in the gospels Jesus
• 40:03
  says to his disciples
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know take up your cross and follow me and I I've been struck by that
• 40:09
  Phrase and that sentiment because of what we've often done with
• 40:13
  it like oh just
• 40:14
  embrace your suffering but also I think this kind of brings us
• 40:17
  back again to you
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: know a theological paradigm that I love to talk about that I
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: I find so rich in life giving actually,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: this notion of the theology of the cross versus the theology of glory.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if we have a theology of glory where we are the producers,
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: where we are the ones who are managing everything well,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: where we are the ones who have everything together.
• 40:42
  We are actually doing a disservice to our people and actually I
• 40:45
  think we are doing
• 40:46
  a disservice to the God who was willing to put himself on the
• 40:51
  cross for us.
• 40:52
  This is where the theology of the cross comes in because I was
• 40:55
  struck by 2 Corinthians 12.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Paul is talking about,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's that famous place where,
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: Paul says,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to glory in my,
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm content with my weaknesses,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to glory in my weakness because when I'm weak,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm strong.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if you notice, in verse number nine, he quotes...
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: from the Lord Jesus.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the Lord Jesus has been speaking to him.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: And the quote is, this is Jesus speaking and Paul is recording it.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness.
• 41:27
  And I've always been struck by that phrase because whose
• 41:30
  weakness is Jesus talking about?
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he's talking about his own.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's talking about his own weakness, not just Paul's.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: His power is going to be made perfect in Paul's weakness.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because his power was made perfect in Christ's own weakness on the cross.
• 41:46
  When he willingly put himself in the most vulnerable position
• 41:52
  in the entire history
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: of humanity by succumbing and surrendering to death by crucifixion,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: that is quite literally power being made perfect in
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Jason The ultimate image of weakness, a crucified Messiah.
• 42:08
  And the reason why we as under shepherds of the shepherd who
• 42:12
  willingly went to the
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: cross for us,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: the reason why we can embrace and not just embrace
• 42:18
  but be okay and have hope and joy and peace in the midst of our
• 42:23
  own weaknesses and
• 42:24
  sufferings is because of this theology of the cross that says
• 42:28
  right there that's
• 42:29
  where God is manifest that says right there that's where God is
• 42:33
  going to be found
• 42:34
  he's going to be found not when you're ascending into becoming
• 42:38
  a social media
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: influencer for Jesus
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's when you are okay with being slandered.
• 42:46
  And this isn't to say that we shouldn't be thoughtful or
• 42:50
  truthful or stand up for
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: ourselves when things happen or when certain events happen.
• 42:56
  I'm not saying that pastors have to be doormats but what I am
• 43:00
  saying is that our
• 43:03
  our hope and our resiliency doesn't come from clearing our name
• 43:07
  or having everyone
• 43:08
  like us it comes from knowing that in the midst of my most
• 43:12
  abject weakest moment
• 43:15
  Christ is the one who is powerful for me and through me the
• 43:19
  same with his grace is
• 43:20
  sufficient for me and those moments where it it doesn't appear
• 43:25
  logical it doesn't
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: appear to make sense and again this
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Drives us back again to what Paul would call the folly of the cross,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: the foolishness of the word of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I'm reading Dave, that's where all my thoughts are going.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was waiting for when Luther was going to come in here.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: You knew it was coming, Rob.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was waiting for when the theology of the cross was going to come.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because this really does, it just screams that.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it screams that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for bringing that up.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And as it screams that,
• 44:12
  it really then just keeps us even a lot more just like
• 44:18
  recognizing that this
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: invitation then is not like this.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: This invitation to, you know, to let death produce life.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not to rob us.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually for our joy.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's for our joy.
• 44:35
  And we come out from there just like really,
• 44:41
  really glorying in God more and more.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when I preached through this,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: This text here,
• 44:49
  I wrote down this part where it's like there's no olive oil
• 44:55
  without crushing olives
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: first,
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: there's no flour without crushing the grain first,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: there's no perfume without crushing the
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's no sugar without crushing the cane first,
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: no diamond without crushing the carbon under pressure first,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: no juice without what?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Crushing fruit,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: no medicine without crushing herbs first,
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: no cement without crushing limestone,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: no strength without crushing trials first.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so basically at the end of the day,
• 45:26
  It is almost like this is also just the natural revelation kind
• 45:30
  of also teaching us
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: like these are proverbs of life teaching us that like,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: the seed has to die in order for it to actually like to
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: To become even, to produce even more.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And God does take us through that.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this is just beautiful opportunity.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 45:50
  we always carry the death of Jesus in our body so that the life
• 45:58
  of Jesus may also
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: be displayed.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think at the end of it all,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: when I'm looking at this,
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was telling you that when I look at this,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can acknowledge that hindsight,
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: but like when it comes to foresight,
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: it becomes a little bit scary,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: but the comfort comes from the fact that like,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: who's going to be displayed?
• 46:26
  And if Christ is the one who's going to be displayed through
• 46:32
  these weak frames,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: then that's a beautiful thing because at the end of the day,
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: that's really what I signed up for.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: assigned up for Christ to be displayed through us.
• 46:47
  And so then that theology of the cross becomes very valuable to
• 46:51
  us instead of
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: actually the theology of glory.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it also as well just then keeps you in that loop of...
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: As you are a sufferer and a sinner and a saint at the same time,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: like the gaps kind of start showing up where at the end of the day,
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a sufferer.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I will be wounded.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: But then the sin in me gets actually this, like...
• 47:29
  It gets shown through through even maybe things that have
• 47:34
  happened to me and and I
• 47:36
  find myself basically just I think that displays also in the
• 47:41
  aspect of it drives
• 47:43
  you back to your knees where you you live you know to go back
• 47:49
  to Luther you live in
• 47:51
  a lifestyle of repentance and and then you you start actually
• 47:56
  seeing you know
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: You start seeing the sin behind even the sin that has happened to you.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you see your sin behind that someone has sinned against you.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then there's also just like my desire for glory,
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: my desire for self-preservation,
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: my desire for whatever it is.
• 48:20
  And I think that's where the sweetness of ministry becomes,
• 48:24
  where it's almost like I'm so glad.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I look at some of these things,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about this like where,
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: it wasn't until probably when my wife was going through just cancer that
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: that we knelt and prayed together more intimately than before, right?
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just kind of weird thing,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: like where it's like,
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: hold on,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: this actually out of this,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: like it's like the Solomon,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: is it?
• 49:02
  No,
• 49:03
  no,
• 49:03
  Samson out of the way he goes and there's honey in the lion,
• 49:09
  right?
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this thing was meant to eat you up.
• 49:12
  But then out of that sweetness came out of that and that was
• 49:16
  the riddle that he
• 49:17
  used against these guys and like but just it's like finding
• 49:21
  honey out of the
• 49:23
  something that was meant to devour you and I think that's just
• 49:27
  been like that with
• 49:28
  church hurt with with personal trials with everything and with
• 49:34
  just ministries in
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: general yeah so
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would love.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think just when you're looking through this,
• 49:45
  I was just mulling over this line here where I just have not
• 49:52
  been able to shake
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: this.
• 49:53
  What if coming to know yourself as a broken and weak sinner in
• 49:59
  continual need of
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: grace is the key to becoming a fruitful leader who lasts?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I think that frames everything.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: The growth in self-awareness of sin is not evidence of spiritual failure.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually the clearest sign for genuine growth.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it just, you know, I've really just enjoyed seeing that.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but yeah, what else were you thinking of?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I would love to do is let's just unpack this.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just kind of unpack this last one.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: I want us to have part two because all the other ones like,
• 50:48
  and actually probably we're going to have part two or part
• 50:51
  three because it's
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: These are so heavy,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: but yet at the same time,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just so glad that this was slowing down through them.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's really good, Raph.
• 51:03
  And I think it's wise to park here because I think what is so
• 51:08
  awesome about what
• 51:09
  Dave has done with this book is he's really encapsulated
• 51:13
  pastoral ministry in a New
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Testament context in a way that honors Christ.
• 51:17
  and I think what you have hinted at and like it was good that
• 51:20
  you kind of brought
• 51:21
  in Luther there's a reason why he begins his 95 theses with
• 51:25
  this notion of the
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: whole life of the Christian is one of repentance and we shouldn't sort of
• 51:32
  that is for pastors too and I think what is so helpful about
• 51:37
  knowing that grace is
• 51:39
  sufficient for our weakness is that we are just as desperate
• 51:45
  for grace as those to
• 51:46
  whom we are preaching this message of grace to and that we we
• 51:50
  are ones that
• 51:52
  That Should Be Willing To Admit And Be Open With The Fact That
• 51:56
  We Are In Need Of
• 51:58
  Repentance And The Reason Why We Can Be Confident When We
• 52:01
  Repent Is Because Of The
• 52:02
  Objective Work That What Christ Has Done That'S What First John
• 52:05
  One Nine Is Talking
• 52:06
  About That He Is Faithful To Forgive Us When We Confess Why
• 52:09
  Because Of What He'S
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Already Accomplished For Us And This Is The Message That We Give
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: To struggling sinners and saints Why?
• 52:17
  Because we are struggling sinners and saints too Like there's a
• 52:20
  reason why I think
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: there's a reason why God didn't Just send down You know a squad of angels
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: to preach this message to people.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because number one, they would never be able to convey its reality.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: the fancy word,
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: the pathos,
• 52:40
  the catharsis of this message is the ways in which it really
• 52:46
  touches the human
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: soul.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: The notion that God would send his son taking on flesh to die for us
• 52:53
  that that is what changes lives can only rightly be conveyed by
• 52:58
  one who shares in
• 52:59
  the same things that Christ himself shared with you know I was
• 53:02
  reading Hebrews
• 53:03
  chapter 2 where it talks about for we who are made in flesh and
• 53:08
  blood Christ
• 53:09
  himself partook of the same things so that he might destroy the
• 53:13
  one who has the
• 53:14
  power of death even the devil that's Hebrews 2 14 this notion
• 53:18
  that he would come
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: and share what we share in
• 53:21
  makes it all the more palpable that when we preach that message
• 53:25
  we're preaching
• 53:25
  from the standpoint of of reality of shared hey I know of
• 53:30
  shared weakness hey I
• 53:31
  know what you're enduring um and that begin that's why I love
• 53:36
  what he writes about
• 53:37
  in wonders two and three this notion of death resurrection and
• 53:40
  wonder number three
• 53:41
  he talks about repentance this this again this notion that we
• 53:46
  don't have it put all
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: together I think this is really helpful because there's this tendency
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: um number one from a pastor to like we've kind of talked about to always
• 53:58
  appear put together or and maybe even I've done it I've striven
• 54:03
  over the years to
• 54:03
  not do it at all but to make ourselves the heroes of every
• 54:07
  illustration but there's
• 54:08
  also by the same token this other notion that just because
• 54:12
  someone is being
• 54:13
  platformed we should take them you know at full gambit and I
• 54:18
  think what is really
• 54:19
  helpful is again reading 1 John reading other New Testament
• 54:22
  letters you could go to
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: like that scene with Paul and the Bereans
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: where the Bereans had the audacity to fact check Paul,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: which should let us know that,
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: you and I,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Raf,
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: we are not above being fact checked by our congregation.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a freedom in admitting that.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's a freedom in admitting that my words are weak.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe sometimes I'm going to screw up a reference here or there.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: Fact checked me on that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: But then also...
• 54:52
  just because someone's being platform doesn't mean you just
• 54:54
  take their word for
• 54:56
  drive them to Christ drive them back to the word and I think
• 55:01
  this willingness to
• 55:02
  admit our faults this willingness to be like my life is a life
• 55:06
  of repentance it
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: should like you you mentioned which I think is so on point Ralph which is
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: What are people seeing when they see us?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: It should always be Christ.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: It shouldn't be us.
• 55:18
  It shouldn't be our ability,
• 55:20
  our performance,
• 55:22
  our ability to manage our lives well.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: All those things that sometimes we want to strive after.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, we want people to see Christ in us.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do we do that?
• 55:34
  We admit our faults We admit that we're broken We admit that
• 55:37
  we're weak Why?
• 55:37
  Because that drives people to see Jesus through us It's not our
• 55:41
  achievements It's
• 55:43
  not our Like as you've been saying It's not our power Our
• 55:45
  productivity That drive
• 55:47
  people to Jesus It's our willingness to admit That we're weak
• 55:51
  And that we're broken
• 55:52
  And that we need someone to save us It's Romans 7 all over
• 55:55
  again Who's going to
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: save me from this body of death?
• 55:57
  Praise be to God Through the Lord Jesus Christ That's I think
• 56:02
  what Dave has been getting at
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: Which is also I would say that that's where we find,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: we could say the lifeblood for pastoral ministry.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it starts right there.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want us to end that right there.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: And our goal here is actually just,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: as you kind of look through this,
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: is for you to see that,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: because of the gospel,
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: because of Christ,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: there's hope.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's always rescue.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's always another chance for you.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: And basically just like you're meant to eat what you're serving.
• 56:47
  You're meant to actually savor what you're giving to people and
• 56:53
  daily the gospel
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: needs to be nourishing us and so
• 56:58
  and he knew that when he was calling us and when he was and and
• 57:04
  so and then there's
• 57:05
  just there's hope there so in that way then we can now be able
• 57:09
  to let go of our our
• 57:13
  polished lives and we can actually be able to to to bring in
• 57:18
  other people we will
• 57:19
  see in these next ones as well so Brett do you mind just
• 57:24
  praying praying as we end
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: in that way then
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how people are going to be processing through this,
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: but I know that like this drove me even more and more to my knees.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: So would you mind praying and then and then we'll conclude?
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let's do it.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus,
• 57:41
  we thank you that you've called to clay pots like us to deliver
• 57:44
  your message of
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: grace and hope to your church.
• 57:47
  I pray that you would fill us with your Holy Spirit as we are
• 57:51
  reminded so often of
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: our weakness and failure and that you would drive us.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: You
• 57:55
  Yes,
• 57:55
  drive us to our knees so that we might find that that's where
• 57:58
  you find us.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: God, help us to be willing to be hurt, to suffer if necessary.
• 58:04
  Help us to be willing to carry the cross as we show people what
• 58:08
  exactly the cross
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: has done for them.
• 58:10
  I pray that you would speak through us at all times and that
• 58:14
  you would allow us
• 58:15
  Lord to never try and steal the spotlight from you but that you
• 58:18
  would be the one
• 58:19
  who shines in us and through us as the light of the world Lord
• 58:22
  Jesus we love you
• 58:23
  and we thank you and we thank you most of all for loving us
• 58:26
  first in your name I
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: pray Amen
• 58:28
  amen amen thank you so much for joining us guys please be
• 58:32
  looking forward to
• 58:34
  looking forward to part two because um yes and possibly three
• 58:39
  yeah possibly three
• 58:41
  hey Brad thank you so much uh for taking time to do this with
• 58:45
  with me I'm so glad
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: that I asked you if we can read this together uh because I was like
• 58:53
  I was like this is so good to chew by myself I need to get this
• 58:57
  with someone else
• 58:58
  and I'm glad and I hope our friends are going to be glad as
• 59:02
  well I think they will
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: thanks Ralph thanks so much guys alright
• 59:07
  Thanks so much for listening to this particular episode of the
• 59:10
  Ministry Minded Podcast.
• 59:11
  Thanks so much for Raphael for letting me share this particular
• 59:15
  episode with you
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: all on the Ministry Minded Podcast feed.
• 59:18
  If you haven't yet,
• 59:19
  make sure to go check out Raphael's substack,
• 59:21
  Accessible Theology.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's this podcast there as well, Fueled Pastoral.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Resilience,
• 59:27
  and I think you'll really greatly benefit from what Raphael is
• 59:31
  doing over there on
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: his Substack and through his ministry.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Check out his church too.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: All the links to Raphael's stuff is going to be put in the notes below.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Also, make sure you check out this book, Clay, Pop
• 59:41
  Conspiracy by Dave Harvey links to that will be in the show
• 59:44
  notes as well thank you
• 59:45
  so much for subscribing for watching Ministry Minded on YouTube
• 59:50
  subscribing on
• 59:50
  Substack or Apple or Spotify wherever you get your podcasts
• 59:53
  thank you so much for
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: that until the next episode blessings