Latest / Breaking Down Addiction / #13 Miko Juvinall: From Discipline to Addiction, Federal Charges, and Finding Freedom

Transcript

#13 Miko Juvinall: From Discipline to Addiction, Federal Charges, and Finding Freedom · Breaking Down Addiction

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: The reason I stay in recovery is because like life is just so much better than the chaos of not being in recovery.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to a new episode of Breaking Down Addiction, a podcast brought to you by National Addiction Specialists.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: And my name is Johnny Phillip.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'll be your host today.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you so much for joining us.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: We got a beautiful, amazing, wonderful Miko Juvenile with us today.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for joining us.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We've we've gotten to know each other, I would say, since late summer.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: When you moved here from California.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked about everything by like between like we played pickleball together, your ethnic background, your a bit of your story about addiction, your parents.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I got to know your best friend Alex.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I I do want to rewind a little bit.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I always like to start off with the first question of if you were sitting across from yourself an active addiction, what would you say to her?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it would be along the lines of like, it will get better and it does change, and it is possible.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: When when you were getting sober, did you did you go to treatment?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go to treatment several times?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Was it a one and done thing?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I was forced to go to treatment, um, had some legal issues.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: They basically were like, hey, we recognize that you're an addict, um, and we want you to go to treatment.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I was willing to go.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I was pretty sure that I was gonna make it.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I got this, I can complete this treatment program.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was a state-funded place.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have insurance.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then 39 days in, I got kicked out.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: But um I was also on house arrest at the time.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of like uh I guess we'll get into all these.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we will.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I only went once because at that moment, um, I was like, well, I have 39 days.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: I've never had this much time before, never even tried to.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I could use it as an excuse to run, or I can just sit with this and see what the next steps are.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I decided to sit with it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Making excuses, I think, yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Are the biggest part of not wanting to continue.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you you grew up in a disciplined, structured home.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, it was it was.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: You were also a kind of like a trained gymnast at this and uh was it a competitive?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: I competed um my whole, I think by the time I was like middle school, high school, I was spending about 24 hours in the gym a week.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was gonna say I was gonna say a day.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: No, uh in a week um outside of school because it was not related to school.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: So 24 hours a week, is that is that like two a days?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: It was five days a week.
• 3:17
  unknown: Okay.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: So we had two days off.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: It was always Wednesdays and Sundays that we had off.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: What was your specialty?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is something I didn't know about you going into this.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was really good at floor, that was my best event.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then the beam, and then I would probably say like vault and then bars, but I did all four uh events.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: Was what age was that that you were competing and so I think I started competing around 11.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I started gymnastics at six, and then by 11, maybe yeah, I I want to say it was around 11, is when we start competing, and then um I reti retired.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Competing at 11.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's intense.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's very, it's a very structured thing, and I and the discipline, uh, it was very it was self-discipline because it wasn't like something that my parents were like, you have to do this sport or anything.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: It was like I wanted to do it, I enjoyed doing it.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um and yeah, it was just something that I fell into.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I did a lot of a lot of extracurricular stuff, and it came down to either soccer or gymnastics.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: And um in soccer, it was a little, it was getting a little physical, and I'm like, I didn't like that.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, uh, I think I'm gonna do gymnastics.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: So gymnastics are also very physical.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: It is, but we're not like fighting each other.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're not hitting and kicking each other and pushing each other and stuff.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I didn't like that part.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Was there was there injuries while you were doing gymnastics?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um a lot of injuries.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: I never broke anything.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: I have very hyper mobile joints, so everything is very flexible.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: My issue is not usually flexibility, it's like strengthening the ligaments and stuff.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, a lot of rolled ankles and stuff.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: My major injury was um at 16 I had two almost slip discs in my back.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I had to take like a year of competing off.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I couldn't for six months do anything going backwards.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: And at that point, I was everything you do is going backwards.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I would like come into the gym, just do conditioning and stretching and what I could do, um, and then leave basically.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Taking a year off after you're competing from 11 to 16, what did you do with your time?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like, did you drown yourself in studies?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was studies.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was like school.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was also in band in school, so it was a lot of just I'm like the band nerd.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um I did like ASB and stuff.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: What instrument?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Saxophone.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: You're our first uh saxophonist, I believe.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you're welcome.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I haven't played in a long time, but I think it's a skill that you don't really forget how to do.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, I think I just kind of filled the time with school and whatever.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think I did ASB at that point.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: So doing more stuff after school.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I still had to go to the gym like the five days a week.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's just my schedule was different than like what my friends were doing.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: What's ASB, if you don't mind me asking?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um the associated student body.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: So like all the people who do like events in school and stuff like that.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 6:36
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you're really involved in school at this point.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: You start competing again.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: I competed.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I competed, um, I competed again.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then I um I also had like a surgery on my foot.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: I just had like it was a bunion surgery.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's like an old person surgery.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but gymnastics kind of like aggravated what was going on there.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that also took me out, but it didn't it didn't make me miss any uh competitive part of the year.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: It was more like during the off season, so I was healed by the time um I came back from that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: But um yeah, I took I did get back into it, and I I also had gone on this trip with my church.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um we went to Ireland and I it was right before my senior year of high school.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I had so much fun with all these kids and just on the trip in general, and I went back to doing the gymnastics stuff, and I had lost that fun part of it, and I felt like I was missing just being able to like be a kid or like you know, to enjoy my senior year.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: So that's why I ended up deciding to quit.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_03: It was just like injuries and the surgeries, and then it just lost its fun.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean that competitive part probably never left you.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but your body is a hurdle at this point.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm curious as to what you did from you know, like the trip after high school to Ireland to did you go to college after this?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: So my senior year, I like had my schedule basically.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: I left school at like noon um because I was I took get ahead classes in summer and like I just had gotten all my credits and stuff.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: So my senior year was pretty cool.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I had a lot of free time.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: I did get a job, so that you know, started working.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I applied for colleges.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: I ended up going to like a Cal State out in California.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um under my I wanted to be veterinarian for like since I was a kid.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that was secretly something I always wanted to do too.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Helping animals.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, helping animals.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_03: So I applied to the school as a pre-vet major and got in and um was able to kind of start that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then I also started working part-time as or I think I was working, yeah, I think I was working part-time as like a vet tech.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I did that for the four years that I was in college, and then I continued the job for a little bit until I finally lost it because I was using at that point.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Which was gonna bring me to my next question.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because I wanted to get some of this picture of you know, you're you're being a competitive gymnast at this point, and then Ireland, that's super cool.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then you want to be a veterinarian.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then at 22 is when you started using, if I remember correctly.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and this is methamphetamine.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And is it just meth at this point?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: What made you start it?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so in college, um, and I would say like when I was 18, like in high school.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: No, I think it I think it was right after high school.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I started going to a lot of clubs, and at that point I decided that I was like a lesbian and I was only gonna date women, and so I like was dating some girl and um going to all the gay bars and stuff in in West Hollywood, which is a ton of fun.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um that party scene, yes, and at the time, like the L-word was like a big show on TV, and I would say that our group of people like mimicked a lot of the personalities and stuff in that group from that show.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: So it's funny.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but the partying, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: So like we were, I was drinking, I I started with alcohol.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um at 19 I got my DUI.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: Alcohol was the start, and 19 got a DUI.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um probably should have seen that as a red flag.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: But ended up like we hired an attorney, so I kind of got out of it.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like it somehow he got it down to some kind of misdemeanor, or not even a misdemeanor, it was some traffic infraction code.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a DUI on your record.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Correct, essentially.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: So I got out of the trouble and was just like, okay, well, if I'm gonna be drinking, like I won't drive, you know, I won't be the driver.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so like all through college it was like drinking.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: I started going to Raves because we're going to all these clubs, and after the clubs, they're promoting the raves, and so we start going, you know, me and this girl would start going to the rave scene.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and every drug that comes into the rave scene, I was doing it.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think the only drugs that I like didn't do were like DMT, and I wasn't really into benzo, so we it was more like ecstasy, coke, acid, mushrooms, like all the like fun drugs that you do.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of these are uppers, right?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I was back in the rave scene in the nineties in Wisconsin and partly in Chicago.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so for those of you that don't much that don't know much about the rave scene, uh it probably it was different in the 2000s than it was in the nineties, but it always kept the same rules.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think so.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's been pretty simple.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like I remember they would start at around 8 p.m.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: The big DJ would go on really, really late or early in the morning.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sometimes it would go till five, six in the morning.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I think I was going to ones at venues that typically closed around two.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think they were selling alcohol, but that was just kind of like the venues jobs.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: But I also started promoting for Rave, so I found some friends that way I could get into them for free.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um probably more drugs.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: More drugs, yep, more drugs.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time it seemed fine, you know, like everyone's doing, but I also think back and it's like I wasn't the person that bought, you know, a few ecstasy pills and did one per night.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like I would take like five, and then once that was gone, like everyone's leaving the rave, and I'm like, how do I get more?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to call to get more, like we're not gonna stop this party.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, so maybe it wasn't that normal.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think some people kind of do it and then stop.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure, but you were taking it farther.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: I was definitely taking it farther, and so yeah, and so like meth was something obviously was in a lot of the ecstasy pills.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't really realize it that like that's the thing, right?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: That was like I liked those pills that like got me up.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And um I did do it sort of accidentally.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: So the girl I was dating one time picked up Coke, or what she said was coke.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it just like a different situation because we normally would finish like our whatever eight ball in like a night or something and be looking for more.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's a lot of cocaine, isn't it?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: It is a lot of cocaine, yep.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: And this one time she brought some home and I had like a midterm or something, and so I was like, I'm gonna study, you can do whatever.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: By the morning, when I like woke up and had to go to school the next day, she was still awake, and the bag had the same amount of like substance in it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, That's a little bit odd because we normally finish the bag.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then when I got home, she was like, Well, do you wanna do you want some?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like this one is a little bit more cut, and I'm like, like, what do you mean?
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_03: And she's just like, Oh, it just like burns a little more, and it was meth, it was 100% meth.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I knew in my gut what it was.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I did it, I wasn't really thrilled about it at the time, but um making you feel pretty good, keeping you up.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man, it felt great, but uh, I was just like, yeah, I don't know if that's like something I want to keep doing.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: So then I broke up with her.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um because that relationship was just really toxic.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: We were just, you know, drinking all the time, fighting all the time, like it was just a lot of stuff.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: And so then um I got kicked out of school because I was in school for four years, but like my partying and the drinking and everything was more important.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: It became more important than uh see, uh, it became way more important than going to school and doing my assignments and studying.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I kind of hung on for a while, and then like if you look at my transcripts, you can kind of just see it fade into like disaster.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: Bad grades, bad grades, core attendance.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yep, not showing up.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the fourth that last year, the last semester I was there, I signed up for classes and I probably didn't even show up.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like total waste of money.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sorry, mom.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, so eventually I get the letter, like, hey, you know, you you have two options.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can uh petition to like stay in school and try to bring your GPA situation up, or you can't come here anymore.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: So at that point, I was like, I've been in school for so long and I deserve a break.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was still working as a vet tech, and so I had money coming in, um, moved back home and uh met this guy.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: So it was this guy that like I had had a crush on in like middle school.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: We kind of reconnected, I started hanging out with him.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: He was also a disaster.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you're searching for love.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like I just constantly went from one relationship to the next, and it's like broken person after broken person.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: And this guy, I was like, oh, like, you know, I finally get this chance with him.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: And um, he was a pretty severe alcoholic, I would say.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we drank a lot in that relationship, and then once a month he would um pick up meth.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And eventually he also got a prescription for like Adderall or something.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: So he was like doing meth and also like snorting his pills and drinking.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: It allowed him to probably drink more.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: It did, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it was like a nightmare, such a bad relationship.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Then there was like an ex-girlfriend situation, it was a it was a mess.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you're probably doing the same thing, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so not as much though, because I I'm kind of like a one substance at a time type of person, I guess.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: I've always been like I'm I'm small, and so like I don't want to mix too many things and uh become like incoherent.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: You're having control, you're trying to have control, yes.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm gonna be safe.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um this is my safe way of doing drugs, one at a time.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I was really like once, so I ended up doing the meth with him and was like, you know what, this is not that bad.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, maybe, maybe like once a month is fine, you know, and like convincing yourself.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And that once a month maybe lasted two months.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then after that, the third month, I was probably like doing it like three days a week, and then it was four, and it was five, and then it was every day.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: And then once I found my own connect and I didn't have to go through him, I was like, I don't even need to be in this crazy relationship anymore.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: Cut out the middleman, yeah, cut him out, and also the person I had found um happened to be someone whose house, like a lot of the drug dealers would come through the house and stuff, and so I learned that like if I dated that guy, that I got a lot of free drugs because everyone would come by and just like give him stuff.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: You're working the system here, working the system, absolutely.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you were looking for love, but the love kind of turned into drugs in death at this point.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: Are you exp and I'm sorry to cut you off here, are you experiencing withdrawal symptoms or if you're not using anything like that?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Not really.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's like I feel like when I started using daily, it didn't stop after that.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like there might have been times where my drug dealer was gonna take a like whoever was coming through was taking a long time.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's always the thing, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: Like we're waiting 20 minutes away.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm 20 minutes.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then we're like anxious and I'm getting tired or something, but there wasn't really like a withdrawal.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: I just stayed high, I feel like it was like a constant thing.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: Because I also am the drug addict that like I don't actually run out of drugs.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, we're getting low.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: I need to make the call now.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't, because there was this fear of running out.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: And what does that mean?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think there was definitely times where like my body was just like, we're going to sleep now, and there wasn't anything you could do about it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd probably sleep for 12 hours and then wake up and I'd have, you know, whatever right in front of me.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um the typical crash.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's just you can't stay up for two, three days in a row and and really make it.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, I don't really remember like a withdrawal.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there was definitely times where we probably had where we did run out, and I was sitting there like, man, what are we?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like that anxiety and that stress, but it was very far and few between.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was like always a hustler.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like I either had money because I was working, or I found ways to make money.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because to me, like my the guy that I was hanging out at his house is like a trader, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: He likes to get stuff and trade stuff, and I'm like, I don't have time for that.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Money means drugs.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go get money.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_03: So um, yeah, I mean, like, did whatever I needed to to get money really.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: That was gonna be my next question.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what if you don't want me asking, what are you doing to get money at this point?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time, there was like some kind of scheme I would do, right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of the time it was I always had a car and like good insurance and good registration.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it was, oh, you need to go, you need a ride, do you need to do this?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you need to go pick up, you need to go drop this off.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: So that was kind of a currency for me.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: It was like doing those favors.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I never really had to like sleep with anyone for money, but I did end up figuring out that if you date the drug dealer, then it's free drugs or whatever because you're like, he's he's the boyfriend and and the provider, right?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um which could be a lot of danger attached to all that.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, 100%.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: There was always weird situations.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: I remember going through like step work and being like, Did you ever put yourself in these crazy situations?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I probably could have been like kidnapped or something.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like some of these people were not good people.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sure there's guns and weapons around, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Guns, transporting people with guns, knowing that they run from the cops, like just all these situations where it's like you're the one driving and it's your car, like this is gonna be on you.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: But um never really got in trouble for it.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: So The the first guy that I had found after the one I dated that started me into using, um, there was a drug raid in his house.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like two weeks in.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Were you present for this raid?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I I was a new face to that house.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: So like if they had been watching, I don't think they really cared who if I was there.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like they didn't weren't come coming for me.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um scary as shit.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it was crazy.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: It was the craziest experience.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And um I remember like they tried to like get me to like tell on, you know, who is this person, identify people, and um try to figure, you know, all these.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I don't actually know who these people are.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: I've been here for two weeks.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I don't really know who these people are.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: I go to work, I come back, like this is my boyfriend's house, whatever.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and from that I learned like don't hang out at like the house that has all the traffic, right?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um smart meeting.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's super smart.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Just get better at doing this.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: So we ended up like moving to his mom's in like a different in Chino Hills, it was further away from where all of that was going down.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: He had some court stuff because it was his house, so he was the one that had the charges.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: They tried to charge me with stuff, they never filed anything.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I remember calling my attorney and being like, because I had this attorney from my DUI, you know, a few years back.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I called your job as DUI, but I called him and I'm like, hey, this is what happened.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_03: This is what they're saying to me.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do I do?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, you know, stop using drugs, number one, and stop hanging around those people.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, Can you do that?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember this is like the pivotal moment for me.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um as soon as I hung, I told him, Yes, I can do that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because up until then, I was like, I'm doing this because I I want to get high.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I am in control here.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: When he told me to stop using, it was like I knew I couldn't.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: And so he hung, I hung up the phone and just started crying.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because I was like You can do everything, but stop the using.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: I was I was like, I can't actually stop.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like now I don't know what this feeling is, but like I won't, I won't be able to stop.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: Even though I just went through one of the scary I mean, these cops beat the crap out of this kid.
• 24:25
  unknown: Wow.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: It was intense.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And this is in front of you.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 24:30
  unknown: Okay.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: And he wasn't even trying to run.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like he was sitting on his bed like like this when they grabbed him and they just started beating him up.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was in I was like, what is going on right now?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is crazy.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then they like pulled me out of the room.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: But you could just hear him like screaming.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's enough to make you not trust law enforcement too, at that point, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because I had some s I mean similar but different situations growing up.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it made me not trust law enforcement.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And side note right now, you know, uh rest in peace, Renee Good in Minnesota, with these ICE agents taking her.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a whole other subject.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: But um let's bring it back to where so are you going to have charges at this point?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: And or like because I know federal charges are a thing that happened to you.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: What was the buildup there?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: How did that happen?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so what was all that about that situation at 22 was like just this big crazy thing, right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I didn't end up getting charged for anything, they didn't file.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I kind of just went under the radar after that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: But the schemes never stopped.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: So a few relationships later, um actually this guy I met through the first one that that I was in the drug raid.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this one drug dealer used to come through his his house.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: And um we met then, but it was like not till later that we connected and fell in love.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um and really it was like he was like he had all this money, he had nice cars, um, and he was like, hey, like, you know, I'm getting divorced, and um I was 26 at this point, so four years later.
• 26:22
  unknown: Okay.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And um he's like, let me take care of you, like we can get away from all of these people and all this like bullshit, and uh we'll move over.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: We moved to the San Fernando Valley in a little area called uh not Camero, it was um Porter Ranch.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a really nice area in the valley, yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's a real small area, but it's very nice houses.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, this dude's gonna take care of me.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's a gated community.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: We had like my name was on the lease at this house.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna be, you know, whatever.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I started in this relationship with him.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_03: We get into this house, immediately turns abusive.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I think like one of the first nights we were there, he like we got into an argument and we had gotten into some arguments, but nothing had been physically abusive.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: This night he like tried to choke me out.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was like a weird, it was I was in shock that it happened.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Is this unprovoked mostly too?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like we just I mean, I'm guessing we like hadn't slept in a few days or something, and he just I don't remember what the argument was about.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: I just remember that like that happened, and I was like a little shook because I was like, okay, so this just happened.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: It hasn't happened before, but now my name is on this lease and I live here.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's terrifying.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I just was like, okay, I'm just gonna like let it go, you know.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I kind of just didn't know what to do with it, left it, um, continued into the relationship.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: He eventually showed me how he was making money, um, and we started this little scheme together.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, basically, gift card fraud um is what we were doing, and many different types of gift cards, like it started with Macy's.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: We had people who would buy the the lists from us, so there's your cash.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you could also go into Macy's and get anything you wanted.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, I had coach bags and you know, I was fancy.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_03: Damn.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um your schemes.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, and and we had drugs.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: It was in that relationship, it was less about getting drugs.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: We always had them.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it was more about money getting money, making money, paying the rent, all the things.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, eventually the Macy stopped working.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: We had to find a new company to really make money off of.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we switched over to like Shell Gas Station.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: That was what we found.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: So we had gas cards.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, basically, what it was was we would get the gas cards.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we basically knew how to create a list of numbers that were card numbers.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: You check the balances through this like automated computer program that would like automatically do it for us.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: This is so beyond me.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's wild.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this is definitely meth activities, you know.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: You set all this stuff up.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then it would tell us which card had balances.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: We were able to write that onto the physical card and then take that into the store.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: The stores, different shell gas stations have different rules, but they would let us buy scratchers with gift cards.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: So then we're just buying a bunch of scratchers.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm talking the expensive ones, like the$20 or$30 scratchers by the roll.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: So we're buying two packs of those a day.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: So we're talking twelve hundred to eighteen hundred dollars a day.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: And are you hitting on cards?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Are you hitting on any of these scratchers?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: Some of so I think we would hit$500 and$1,000 more often than you probably would just going and buying them randomly.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um we did rolls of them.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: We did hit like a$10,000, that's like the most we won one time.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, but it was always, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, like it's free scratchers, so you're making free money.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think the minimum we could make was like$330.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're making$330 cash minimum off one roll, that's you know, six hundred bucks a day.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty decent for like not actually having to work.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: So um, that was kind of the scheme.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so for three and a half years we lived this way.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Holy shit.
• 30:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: You got away with it for three and a half years.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and a lot of casinos, a lot of all that.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: I just was like, well, it's gift cards.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, if we get in caught, like, what could really be the trouble?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like fake money at that point, right?
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not like credit cards where you're dealing with people's socials or I didn't feel like I was like hurting anybody.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's like a corporation.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but like the feds thought differently.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I guess uh for about eight months they followed us, and then in August of 2018 is when they came to arrest us.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: And were you were you locked up for a certain amount of time?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was not.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I I got arrested that it was August 4th of 2018.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think it's just a memorable date.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I went down to it was really early in the morning.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_03: They were actually a lot kinder than the drug raid for whatever reason.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um I also was cooperating, so it's not like I mean at that point I knew yeah.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: At that point I was like, I think the jig is up, you know, like some the something's happening.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: So took me down to the courthouse.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I was there all day, and like I don't I hate to say this way, but like I don't really do like holding cell for very long, you know.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: I've never had to go in past a holding cell for like maybe one night, and that was with my DUI.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: And even then I think I was there like six hours, you know.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So that day I was like listening to you could hear like some of the other people waiting for their stuff, and they're talking about they've been there, they can be up there for like up to 72 hours, and I was like, oh my god, I'm gonna be here, you know.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I'm 4'11, I weighed probably 95 pounds.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, shackles, like we're talking, you know, shackles around the ankles and this like chain that came up and around the waist, and um, and I'm like locked here, and I was like, this is not like where my life is supposed to be.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: That is a dose of reality, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that moment of like, where are we right now?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: What is really happening?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and by this time, I'm sorry to interject, but you're like using straight until you get busted here, right?
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: So this is like your first stint of sobriety.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, and and it was like a day, right?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because we just always had it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was constantly like using, using, using any chance I got.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So um that day, I mean, the first thought I had was like, I'm not high enough for this, and I need to figure out how I'm gonna get out of here.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: So that day my mom came down with my brother and um came to the courthouse and and like she didn't have to like sign her pension away, but basically signed that like if I were to run from the law and not show up to court, that they would take her pension.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I got put on house arrest.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's intense that night.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Which at the time, like, I couldn't fathom what that meant.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: But also, I'm not really a runner.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I've had little things with the law, and I've never been one to just not show up.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like not worried.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: I got this.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, it's fine, we're gonna.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: And also, like, they didn't know that I was using well, to my understanding, they weren't aware that I was using drugs at that point.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I would show up, everything's fine, blah, blah, blah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: But like, little do they know I'm in this like three-year abusive relationship, and we're using drugs and we're doing all these schemes.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I told them that he had a business.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was looking for work, I was helping his business.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: You're a full full-blown addict at this point.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, full-on.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Addic behavior, yes, addict doings, and your mom has no idea.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_02: Ish.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like I almost feel like it's like they didn't expect it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I was in high school in my 20s, I was like, you know, around 105 pounds.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: So they didn't really see me when I was at my like lowest weight, but I didn't lose like a ton of weight.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: If I were to get loaded now, everyone would know.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone would know.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_03: You'd be like, Yeah, what's happening here?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but back then I don't think that like physically the physical like changes were really there.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was the behaviors, but I also feel like because they didn't expect it from me, it wasn't they couldn't put their finger on what was going on.
• 35:02
  unknown: Okay.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: But once I got busted, and then they told me, like, hey, we know you're a drug addict, like the the um authorities.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: Gotcha.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it was just me and them in the room.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was my parents weren't in the room, and they were like, You need do you want us to come, you know, bring your parents in?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, No, I want the opportunity to tell them myself.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: So I went home.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: I did not have that conversation, and it's almost like we didn't talk about anything.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: It was like an exhausting day.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: I was home on house arrest.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm, you know, got arrested by the feds.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Everything is just like, I'm sure my parents were like in shock.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: We didn't talk about anything.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: I went, you know, they went to bed.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I had a little tablet, because they took my phone, um, and I went on Facebook, and I had a little bag, a little lunch bag delivered to my house, um, so that I could get high.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: So that didn't stop you at all.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it was like, they sent me home, don't use any more drugs, you know, don't talk to your ex-boyfriend or your boyfriend at the time, and you know, you can't have contact with him.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then come back tomorrow, we're gonna discuss because we were I was literally the last case that was seen that day.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: So um, come back tomorrow, we're gonna go over all the rules and stuff, what's gonna happen next.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I had the opportunity to tell my parents that I was a drug addict.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I didn't, right, because I just I didn't know how to say it.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: I knew, I knew I was an addict.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: I had accepted that at 22.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: I just didn't know how to tell them.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't even like I feel I didn't think that they would like be like, oh, we're not gonna help you or we gonna cast you out, but it's just I didn't know how to say it.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I totally get it.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to when I when I got a DUI when I was like twenty-three, um, god, that seemed like another t lifetime ago.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want to admit to my parents that I was an alcoholic at that point because if I did and the DUI, they would create some forceful change so I couldn't drink.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't really want to fully admit it because then it gives up this part of your life that you can't live anymore.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right, because they're gonna set all the boundaries in place.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think the next day when we went down to the court or yeah, back to the court, like pretrial services, they're like, Did you talk to your parents?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, No, they brought them in, we talked about it.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then all the you know, we they set up like we want you to go to meetings, so they set up this like schedule, and I was like, I don't what are meeting, you know, like in my head, like in the movies when you when you see like alcoholics anonymous, like you think a church basement, it's like these old guys, they're sitting in a circle.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: In a circle and they're depressed, yep, and they're like weird, and that's like what the movies portray.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so they're like, Well, you know, have you heard of narcotics anonymous?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, No, but they're like, Okay, well, well, we think that you would do better in these groups, and so I was like, whatever.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: So they set up these, you know, once-a-day meetings.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I think basically it was like, we want you to go to treatment, but we need to figure out where you're gonna go.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because like I didn't have insurance, I didn't have the luxury of choosing.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and they have like programs that they like contract with, so they had to find a bed.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we did that, and then I started going to these meetings.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: It was really awkward.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: I had to, I have the ankle monitor also.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: My parents, somebody had to go with me.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: They did not trust my ass.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, and I'm like, why?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: You know, me.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember um, we'll rewind a little, the day that I got released on the ankle monitor, um, the defense attorney was like trying to say like I didn't I shouldn't be released.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they said I just remember her saying something about like a danger to society, and I was like, Me?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: A danger to society?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like how?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I was so confused.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um, little old me, you know.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm a perfect princess.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: Right, what do you mean?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: A danger, and um, they eventually let me out.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it was like I had to go to these meetings, I had to like put in when I would leave the house.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: It was this whole like scheduler thing online, all these like rules start being put into place.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And did anything start clicking for you at that point where you're like, Okay, I I am okay to be sober, I do want to make a change.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think that in the beginning, I was like, okay, so me and the guy, the last relationship that I was in, um, he would always judge me a lot for using so often.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, Are you ever gonna stop using?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because he's he's been through it.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: He's been into jail, he'd been done stints, he'd gotten clean, he'd, you know, done programs before, like he's had various, you know, whatever things that he's needed to do.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: He'd always look at me and be like, Are you ever gonna stop?
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I'd be like, I don't know.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, maybe, you know, I I was I couldn't think of a reason why I would need to.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and here was the reason.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, well, I guess I should probably stop using and try and at least get out of this legal stuff.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it was kind of like my first, I would, I guess, motivation was I don't want to go, because eventually I found out that I was looking at 20 years in the feds.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: There's some serious federal charge.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: For gift card fraud.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I'm like 29 at this point.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like 50, you know, like 49 years old.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think you do like a slightly less amount of time, but in the feds you do most of your time.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like, I'm gonna be like 45, 50 years old when I get out.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: I can't let that happen.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: That is not how my life is supposed to go.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: So the first piece was like, I have to stop using just so I can get out of trouble.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: And that was kind of my motivation for the first, like, what ended up being three years of dealing with this this case.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you were dealing with this with th for three years, but so I know that there was uh a big thing that happened when you were 15 months clean to and tell us about that.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so um I had an ankle monitor.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, so I had the ankle monitor, I went to treatment, I got kicked out, I like was told go go back to the meetings.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: So I had set up like I was going to like two meetings a day.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't have anything else to do.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they eventually told me you could get a job, so I like started working at this restaurant, just like a little get well job.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, had never done that before, so I was just like, whatever, like let's make it happen.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that first year was pretty good.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: I I like advanced pretty quickly.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_03: I became like a lead at the restaurant, like I was the person that was like covering shifts, you know, doing doing the most, right?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the I'm the yes person.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um also I've I'm a hard worker when it comes down to, I mean, obviously, you don't end up with Fed a Fed case without being a hard, somehow being work ethic.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, at least that with what I was doing.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think around was it nine months clean, um my dad had been dealing with like some health issues.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um obviously I was on house arrest, so I wasn't really doing much.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: My dad used to take me to like go get drug tested, like I had to call every day, do all that whole thing.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and he would take me to meetings until I could finally drive myself.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: I had to, you know, I had to work my way to earn that.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this is the father that adopted you.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I was yes, I was adopted.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: So this is my my dad.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like and so um he had got he'd been dealing with like heart uh congestive heart failure, I guess it was.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: And my dad was my dad was in his 50s when he adopted when my mom was like four in her early 40s, they had like a seven-year gap.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: So he was about 49, 50 when he um adopted my myself and my brother.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: So he was a little bit older.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so he'd been dealing with some stuff, and then eventually, um, when I took my year, like right around that same time, he was diagnosed with um stage four lung cancer.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: Wow, and within three months he died.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so I remember when I was doing my step work, like the reservations, like if something happens to my parents or my brother, like I just don't think I could get through it.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then at 15 months clean, it was dropped on me and it shook my world.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_03: But I think at the time I had built such a strong footing and foundation in my recovery.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: I was like very involved.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm big in service work.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um Meeting level, area level, like I'm HI, like doing all kinds of stuff.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and for listeners out there, that stands for hospitals and institutions.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: Hospitals and institutions institutions.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_03: So like my my sponsor was like big on service, so it's like I just followed what she was doing.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: So um and I've had the same sponsor since I had like 45 days clean.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that's so cool.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we've had a long, a long road.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: And through a lot.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so her dad had actually also passed from lung cancer.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: So when it got when it happened for me when he was diagnosed, like she was able to like guide me, like, hey, this treatment here, like my dad did it.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: This is what the outcome was for him, this is what to expect.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, she had a lot longer that she dealt with that with her dad than I did.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: But um I'm just glad he didn't suffer for very long because it was a a really crazy thing to watch him just dwindle away.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would imagine.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and my first call, my first instinct when I learned that he had passed was to call her.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it was like such a weird moment, not weird, but it was like an epiphany moment where like I was like, oh, I don't want to run and get high right now.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm gonna call her and just figure out what I do next.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like a stuffer, so like I don't cry very often.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so it was like a um, you know, go to a meeting, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so I kind of did that, you know, and and it it wasn't something that I really even shared about until probably the last couple years of my recovery, where like I really started to feel things because it took a while for me to like really feel things.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for sharing that with us too, right now.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: And after losing the your adoptive dad, um, a few months later, you met your biological dad.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, I did.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: So um I met my biological mother when I was 16.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um it kind of just I think she reached out or it was something like that.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: She found us, me and my brother.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I'd known her for a while.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: She's been friends with him forever.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um at one point, I mean, my my dad that raised me was not super kind to her.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but he had to deal with my brother being four and him being upset about like, you know, why'd she leave and just all the abandonment stuff that he had to watch this little boy go through.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: So he had a lot of anger towards my bio mom.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um I don't think that he would have, I don't know.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't know how he would have felt about me connecting with my biological father.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: Like me and my dad were tight.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like one of those things where it's like, I don't know how he would have reacted with that one.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I had actually so what had happened was like I in my using, like had kind of tried to reach out to him because my bio mom had given me his number at one point, he didn't respond.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: So then I went into this like, well, screw him, I'm not that's gotta be tough.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I was like in in my addiction.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I was just like, whatever, like, screw him, he doesn't get to know me, you know?
• 47:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then through some step work and stuff, um, before he surfaced again, um, I kind of got to a point where I was like, you know what?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: If he ever did want to, great.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_03: And if he doesn't, then he doesn't.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I was okay with that.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: And so um he reached out to my bio mom and was like, hey, you know, he went through some uh separation of a long-term relationship, and I think that he was getting a little lonely and just kind of whatever, reached out to her and was like, hey, I'd like to meet her if she's open to it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time I was like on house arrest, you know, and you just lost your adoptive dad.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it was right before I lost him.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I actually had kind of learned that he existed and wanted to meet me right before.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_03: And he had, and we kind of had started talking, I think texting, and he was like, you know, I'd like to meet your dad.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, uh, I don't think right now's the time, you know, because he was like in the hospital and stuff.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_03: And it was hard.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: My dad didn't even want like me in there for very long.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um I was like, I don't really know if that's gonna be the case.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Then I lost my dad, and then um I basically got to a point where I was like, okay, well, I have I finally got to a point where I had a curfew for the ankle monitor instead of like you can't leave the house unless it's for worker meeting.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I told um my bio mom, I said, hey, like, you know, my my 30th birthday was coming up, and I said, if he wants to come out to because they all live in Arizona, um, if they want, if he wants to come out to California, I'd be willing to meet him, but just know like I'm on an ankle monitor and I'm in this situation.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: So he came out with her, and uh that's kind of like how we met.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it was it was nice um to finally like just meet the other half of like who made you.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um and he's been really cool, I guess, since then.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's now been six years, you know, six and a half years since I've met him.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you've had some time to connect to know each other.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: And he makes an effort, you know, he makes an effort, and I appreciate that.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: And um, it's just nice to to do that.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're also getting to know him sober, right?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: Which is super badass.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah, and he didn't have to see the the messy part, he just saw the very beginning.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I was already, you know, about 18 months, or maybe over it, about 18 months, I guess, clean when I when I um met him.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: So this is all amazing because you're you're being tested early in sobriety, and then you get reconnected with your dad, your biological dad.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but at some point in here, you you also want to become a therapist, and you've been working in recovery for a bit.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us tell us more about that.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you start working in recovery?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so and um I was working at the restaurant and then 2020 happened to the world, and especially in California, um, the restaurants closed down.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: We were getting those stimulus checks or whatever, but for me, at like the time frame, I was like, I can't just sit around and get free money.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: I am finally like doing the right thing.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: I can't just do this.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: I had a friend who um was a tattoo artist who was also working as like a tech in treatment, and he was like, Hey, I'm gonna leave my job.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you take the spot?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think you'd be great at it.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: My experience with treatment was that state-funded facility, and I never wanted to work in treatment.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, this sounds like a nightmare, and it's a total shit show.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Why would anyone want to work here?
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: This is crazy.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a state ran okay in box and but then I went to an actual treatment center, so I got to know what treatment's actually like.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I could see keep going.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so and and honestly, the treatment center I went to was a great facility.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: It for being a state funding facility in California, it's very structured, it's one of the best, it's been around a long time.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um behavior modification program.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, not for everyone, but I needed it.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um, but that was my experience.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, I don't why would I want to work in treatment?
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: This sounds like a nightmare, but like at the time, it was like, well, it's a job.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I started as a tech in like 2020.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, within a couple months, um, I I guess like a mentor, he became a mentor of mine, um, was like, hey, I think you do really good at case management.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: I will guide you.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: So I got put into this case management position.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um how long from tech to you be becoming a CM?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_03: It was only a few months.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe two or three months.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: So work ethic, man.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was the work ethic.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: I was the yes, again, I'm the yes person.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm covering shifts, I'm running groups.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because some at that place, like some of the techs would run groups.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_03: We had like our rad tea or something.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then so I did that for like a year.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the place I was working at was one of the not so great places.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that at the time, um, until you start hearing some of the clients talking about their experience.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: They're getting paid to be there.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, what do you mean?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: You're getting what?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: I was confused.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so once that got brought to my attention, um, I was like, you know, in this internal battle, because I'm like our clinical director, I was pretty close with, and he was my like supervisor.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I'd be like, are we gonna get in trouble?
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what is gonna happen if something h- you know, I just got out of the feds, like I don't need to be dealing with more federal stuff.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he was like, it's fine, it's fine.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, just give me a little bit, like something better's coming.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: So what ended up happening then, after about a year and a I guess like a little over a year working as a case manager, I also started going back to school.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, first through like CCAP, which is like the California uh educational like department that oversees like all of the stuff.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_03: So started working on getting um my uh KDAC, which is like a certified drug counselor through them.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting my LADAC.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I started doing that, and also was like, you know, I spent four years in college.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um did you ever get your degree?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: I did not until more recent.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I I at that time in 2021, I was like, I think I want to go back to school.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think I would want to be a therapist.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: So when I was in college the first time, I was a pre-vet major, but I had a psychology associates that I was also working towards.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, always been very interested in psychology, people.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: You were already working in that realm.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so I was like, I'm gonna go back to school and um do all this stuff.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: So also at the same time, our clinical director opened a treatment center and asked if I would want to do a different role.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I started doing business development and admissions um with this new company in in addition to starting back in school and doing the classes for my certification like a crazy person.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I did that.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's how I got back into school.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: It took a few years because it wasn't until this last June of 2025 that I was able to petition to graduate with my associates.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to like go to a community college and do that.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I did actually have one class left, so which I'm actually taking now to really fully finish the associates, but I'm like basically right there.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's that's awesome.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so I've just been trying to maneuver all that.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I took a little break just because I moved across the country, so yeah, and for listeners out there, you moved here sometime this this past year.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: July.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, July of 2025.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: So it's almost like six months ago, I guess.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, hats off to you and Alex because all of a sudden I didn't know who you and Alex were.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then all of a sudden everybody knew who you guys were in like a month span.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe maybe shorter.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was quick.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you guys were all over and you did all the things.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I had actually ingrained in this in this recovery community really well.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: Just wanted to say that.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I had actually um over the last couple years been visiting out here and like started getting connected like work-wise and recovery-wise.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_03: Smart.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, before I made the move.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I had a few con connections before we we moved out here, so that really helped because that helped us get really into it when we first got here.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that's been really good.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm glad you guys moved out here.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: You're a great addition to the recovery community.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then just a couple of things in closing here, because it thank you for sharing everything that you've shared so far.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, wild story.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And uh there's a lot of inspiration in there, I'm sure, for people.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: I hope so.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: What is what's giving you hope and what's keeping you in recovery these days?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think it's just it's like that connection to my higher power.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like I, whether anyone calls it God, the universe, like whatever it is that like they're spiritually connected to, um, it's always had my back, it's always been beside me.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um what's meant for me is coming.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I moved out here just because I wanted to, and I just felt drawn to being here.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: There was a reason I had to be here.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: So the reason I stay in recovery is because like life is just so much better than the chaos of not being in recovery.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: And I know like 101%.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like if you're not connected to your higher power, to meetings to people, that's when like it gets really chaotic, and we just start not it's just acting like not ourselves, and we end up hurting people, and like I'm not in the business of trying to hurt people.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I'm in the business of just trying to like be a good human.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, that hope is is just like I'm here, I'm in recovery, I can spread the hope to other people.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I have not had the reason to have to pick up yet.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um good.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I hope to not have to find myself in that position.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: So no, this is all good advice, encouragement for people out there.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the last thing in closing, um let's say somebody's stuck out there today in your shoes in the in the cycle that you were in, what do you have to say to them right now?
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: I I guess the biggest thing is to just keep trying.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: The the whole thing about recovery is effort.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_03: And if we just keep trying, you never know when it's gonna click.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: If the people around you are not serving you, just find one other person.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: Hell yes.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad you said that.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, don't stick with the winners.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_03: Find the people that like really serve you.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's something I go over with my sponsees all the time.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: These friends are this way and this and I'm like, well, if it's not serving you, then like you need to find a new group.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: Totally agree.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there's some people in recovery, rather, it's early recovery that don't exactly know what they're doing, they're still manipulating, right?
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Lying, living a life that's not actually in recovery.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I we all make mistakes.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's never perfect, and it's never perfect, but yeah, stick with the people that are there for you absolutely and that are good for you.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think that's awesome advice.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, thank you for joining us.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_03: You're welcome.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having me.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Every if everything that you shared is golden.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um, is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with?
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't think so.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just you know, be a good person, just do your best in that and just try to s continue spreading that with everyone that you come in contact with.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Be a good person.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: Be a good person.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_03: I like that.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, I agree with that to you.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but also please check out uh Miko's facility restore health and wellness out in California.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_03: Out in California, and also New Jersey.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: And New Jersey.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then also be sure to like and subscribe to the podcast, uh, Breaking Down Addiction.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: And Miko, much love to you.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a pleasure getting to know you even more than we already know each other.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but God bless you, love you so much, and thank you.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.