Latest / Giving Pain Purpose with Lyndsay Soprano / How the Brain + Pain Work with Dr. Mark Olson
Transcript
- Lyndsay Soprano (00:02.166) What is happening in our brains, people? You know, one of the things that I absolutely love is learning new things. Reading books, listening to podcasts, not just this one, because that would be very narcissistic of me to just listen to my own show. Learning, always been a lifelong learning, pushing my brain to find new ways of thinking, new ways of healing, and quite frankly, new ways to understand pain. and why it happens to us and within us. We do the woo woo thing here on the show, as y'all very well know, big time lately, season three has been like woo woo central and it has been amazing. But we also do the science things, right? And today we're doing the neuroscience thing in a big way. And... One of the things that I've learned about living in chronic pain and chronic illness and also just being kind of a pain, my dad's nickname for me was PETA, pain in the ass, still sticks to this day. Pain is tricky and it is complex. For example, this morning I woke up and it felt like every single bone in my body was going to shatter like glass if I put any sort of pressure on my feet and my legs. This is after a night of, of course, no sleep once again due to nightmares that someone is going to amputate my legs in my sleep, my mouth covered in duct tape. Like these are the kinds of things that I'm thinking about when I'm sleeping. Could this be because I, you know, watch too much true crime? Sure. But my body feels like a true crime show every day and night. And now a few hours later after waking up from this morning, I'm like, I guess I'm almost six hours in here. I feel like someone pumped like pressure or air into every fiber of my being. So I feel like if somebody poked me with a little tiny needle, my entire body would just explode. So that's just a few sensations that I feel and experience on the daily. And there are many overlapping factors that are involved in this guys. And so we're gonna get into this today with my amazingly handsome guest. Lyndsay Soprano (02:22.862) So today we're gonna talk about how pain works and the neuroscience behind it. We're gonna talk about the need for trauma-informed care and what that actually means. What does it mean? And we talk about it on every episode, but we're gonna continue to do so. It is that important. The difference between manual therapy versus massage therapy, rethinking pain and approaching it with humility and so much more. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce to you my Gorgeous guest, Dr. Mark Olson. Hello, darling. Thank you so much for joining me today. Yeah, you got it. So real quick. So Dr. Olson is a neuroscientist, NARM practitioner, aquatic therapist, and published author who bridges brain science with healing. He holds a PhD in neuroscience and an MA in education with research focused on memory, attention, eye movements, Dr. Mark Olson (02:56.599) Thanks for having me, Lindsay. Lyndsay Soprano (03:19.244) and the brain's response to beauty. Mark teaches trauma-informed care and neuroanatomy in a way that's accessible, human, and deeply impactful. He's here today to help us better understand the brain, pain, and the power of connection with all of that. So I'm rolling out the red carpet for you, babe. I would like to start, you got it, I would like to start with what got you into the science of pain, actually. And let's take it from there. Dr. Mark Olson (03:39.286) Thank you. Dr. Mark Olson (03:46.945) Yeah. Okay. Well, I was not studying the science of pain when I was in graduate school. It wasn't really on my list of things because I was like you said, interested in memory and attention. But I was interested in perception a lot, particularly visual perception. And I studied really interesting things about visual perception, like how we could tell whether you recognize the place by the way your eyes moved. which kind of points to some like hidden processing, like ways that, you know, a lot of things going on under the hood that's not conscious, which relates a lot to the topic of pain, like without even directly like going into it, just lays a groundwork of understanding that so many things can happen in the nervous system that, you know, that aren't conscious, are, but are running the show. So I started to, couple of number, a little over a decade ago, I became a director of a massage therapy program. And of course in massage therapy, you what is everybody interested in? And that is, you know, feeling either relaxed or feeling in less pain. And those two things are obviously related to each other, but they are different. So, and a lot of people, you know, who come to get massage, they're in pain, they've been, they have chronic pain. So, you know, they've tried many different things. And I know people, I know lots of people who have chronic pain and have gone from one solution or non-solution to the other. Spending a lot of money, getting really frustrated, being dismissed a lot, and not really finding solutions. So, you know, as a neuroscientist, as somebody who likes to solve problems, figure things out. I kind of took this on as a, you know, it's related to massage therapy, but it's also just like, this is important. This is important for so many people. And it's an important problem to solve. So that's what got me into it, is the professional relationship with massage therapy, but also the personal relationships with people I know. Lyndsay Soprano (06:08.366) It's so interesting that you started with the difference between massage versus body work, talking about what the difference is between those things. in, obviously researching you, my dear, I actually learned a little bit more about the difference between just going in for relaxation versus going in to actually help heal the body. But where does all of that, how do you work in the realm of neuroscience and the complexity of chronic pain? You've got this framework that you've built around that. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Dr. Mark Olson (06:52.393) Yeah, just in terms of, just to be clear what you're asking, how does it relate? Can you ask the question in another way? I'm not sure. Lyndsay Soprano (07:01.294) Sure, I'm perfectly happy to because my question seems to be a little bit convoluted. I'm trying to make sense of the complexity of chronic pain in regards to the neuroscience framework that you have that came from your basis of massage and body work because you originally started doing the massage side of it and then you started to work and figure out like, this is helping these people in different ways. Dr. Mark Olson (07:29.448) Yeah, okay. Lyndsay Soprano (07:29.582) then I actually thought that it was working. Sorry about that. Dr. Mark Olson (07:32.179) Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, no. Well, there's just so many directions to take it. So I wanted to be. Lyndsay Soprano (07:36.684) I know, know, yeah, trust me, I've looked at all of your diagrams and your beautiful engineering work and I'm like, my gosh, this was a hard episode for me to put together actually, because I'm like, I don't even know which way we're gonna go and that's okay, that's the organic part of the show, so that's what we're doing. Dr. Mark Olson (07:51.327) Yeah, yeah, well, I like to think of it as a journey, as an exploration, just trying to explore the topic itself. well, in massage therapy, a lot of people, massage therapy, body work, whichever you call it, it doesn't matter. A lot of people are taught and are already thinking in terms of body structure. They think about, maybe that I'm in pain because of my posture or... Lyndsay Soprano (07:56.77) Yeah, it is, sure. Dr. Mark Olson (08:19.154) or things like that. That's a very popular idea. But it actually doesn't really have any support. that has to be, we have to talk about that a lot actually to like break that down. But it's not the way people think about it. But people come away from bodywork sessions feeling better, right? So what usually happens is people say, well see, this is why. Like I have this idea. that this is going to make you feel better. I have this belief that what I'm doing right now is changing your structure, helping you with your posture. And so, now that we're done with the session, you feel better. the reality is that the reason you feel better has nothing to do with those things. The reason you feel better has a, there's a multitude of reasons why you feel better, but that's not one of them. So it's an interesting thing that the whole profession is kind of built around, I mean, that whole. Lyndsay Soprano (09:15.544) something that doesn't actually exist. Dr. Mark Olson (09:18.546) I'm sorry, but no. But you know, that's the thing about it is, is that we like to think in terms of things that we understand well. And what we do understand well are physical objects. You know, we've spent our whole lives, even as children learning about how physical objects work and we know how things stretch, we know how things deform. We understand how that works. So it's really easy to apply that to our bodies and think, well, if something's wrong, It must be because of these ways that we think about, you know, physical objects, you know, messing up. And of course there are ways in which we can have pain because of structural things. when people, when we're talking about chronic pain though, that's not usually it. And I mean, we can spend all day going through this, but a lot of the reason that people feel better has to do with the relationship. between the client and the therapist. mean, if you came into me and I was just a jerk to you, or I said insulting things or whatever, that would not feel supportive. You probably would not walk away feeling better just because of the relational dynamic. Do you feel like I'm with you? Bedside manner, right? If I tell you, it's all in your head, Lindsay. Lyndsay Soprano (10:35.662) Yeah, bedside manner, yeah. Yeah. us women hear that a lot, by the way. Dr. Mark Olson (10:43.803) Right, I know, I know. So that's not gonna help. It wouldn't matter what kind of technique I applied, if I had terrible bedside manner, wouldn't work. So that tells you a lot about the nervous system component right there, But also, you mentioned that you didn't sleep well, and so you woke up different. Okay, now that tells you something too. Obviously, this is not about your posture. Lyndsay Soprano (10:47.083) Mm-mm. Lyndsay Soprano (10:59.822) to her. Dr. Mark Olson (11:12.571) if it's about your sleep and how does that work? know, so that points to some kind of endocrine immune nervous system function there. you know, you could have an argument with somebody that day or you feel really stressed about something that's in your life, especially relational things. And all of a sudden that thing is, is present. I mean, that, that says a lot about how this works, but But because it's really complicated, what we normally have to do is have what you described as woo-woo explanations, which is fine because if you don't know the neuroscientific details, what are we going to do? And even within neuroscience, we don't truly know all of how this works, but we're getting there. But we have to use the language that we know. And so if it's woo-woo language, fine. Whatever can convey and communicate something that's useful is good. But what we're going to stay away from is explanations that actually aren't helpful. Like telling people, like, well, it's really just your posture doesn't really help people because that's not going to change it. And it just gives people false hope. So we could go 40 different directions from what I just said there. Where do you want to take it? Lyndsay Soprano (12:28.416) I want you to take it where you want to take it actually, because this is about you, not me. Basically focusing on the trauma-informed approach to care is my goal here, because it is complex and it's contradictory. You talk about I have this gnarly insomnia, and so I have nightmares all the time, but this has been going on since I was a little girl. Dr. Mark Olson (12:30.248) Okay. Okay. All right. Well, Lyndsay Soprano (12:54.606) And so I wake up like this all of the time and I have this mind body like almost like I'm a disassociated from my body and my mind sometimes and and it and I know that so much of that it affects my pain and affects it the trauma that I've experienced in my life does affect all of that and that's a lot of who we're talking to I mean a lot of our audience and majority of our audience has unfortunately dealt with a lot of trauma in their lives. And so that is why the trauma informed approach to care is the most important thing that we talk about on this show and our nervous system and how we can understand it and how we can shift it within the chronic illness and chronic pain world. Dr. Mark Olson (13:40.488) Yeah, yeah. So a trauma-informed approach, as I'm sure you've said many times, is not about actually addressing trauma directly. It's about, I mean, anybody can be trauma-informed, a plumber, a geologist, anybody. Right? So, however, if we're working with people, there's a particular subset of trauma-informed that we call trauma-informed care. And so, massage therapists, chiropractors, doctors, teachers, Lyndsay Soprano (13:55.116) Plumber. Good. Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (14:10.364) they should all be trauma-informed because they're not only working with people, but they're working for the care of people. And, you know, one of the elements of trauma-informed care is knowing when to accept what is and when to try to change what is. you know, if you have, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if you show up with a particular pattern that you think, Lyndsay Soprano (14:31.192) Can you explain that? Dr. Mark Olson (14:39.105) you know, why do I always procrastinate? why do I always do this? Or somebody else is like, why does Lindsay always do that? Like, that's so annoying or something. Well, you know, every ba- Lyndsay Soprano (14:49.41) The list is long, people. The list is long. Dr. Mark Olson (14:53.969) But we do that to ourselves. think, there's this quality that I need to change and I'll read some self-help book or whatever and try to fix it. But the thing is, we have this idea that we have to fix it. But if it's a trait or a quality that's been around for a long time, that means that it's there for a reason. It doesn't stick around unless it's adaptive. So if there's any trait, no matter how dysfunctional it seems, that is sticking around and not easy to get rid of, it's because even though there's one part of your mind that says, I need to get rid of this, and change it quote, fix it. There's another part that says, this is adaptive, this is useful. And I don't think we probably have time on this show to get into why that's useful because we won't get to the pain topics as much. But that's the important thing. Like if you go back to the ACEs study, why did they stop their diet? That doesn't seem to make sense from one perspective, but from another perspective it did. It was functional for them to... you know, to quit their diet. So that's one piece, but the other piece is to know, that's the accepting piece, but then the other piece is to know when not to. So if someone's having a trauma response and, you know, they're dysregulated, my job isn't to say, you know, you just be with it. You know, my job right at that moment is to help you come back to a different, you know, more regulated place. So, you know, if... I could say this in a very nice way. could be like, just be with that panic. You what does that feel like? It sounds really nice and meditative or something, but that would be a terrible idea. Like just notice how you feel in your chest when you're panicking. That's a terrible idea. But I think it's a very common thing that we think about in some alternative circles is to think, well, we just want to be embodied. We just want to feel our bodies. Well, feeling our bodies is good sometimes, but not... the time. If a person's having a dysregulated response, know, the thing to do with them is to help them become aware of something other than their bodies. So, like, if you had a... if anybody was with me and they had an autonomic dysregulation response, I would start to move their attention to what they're seeing, what they're hearing, what they're tasting, or something like that. Like, I'm moving away from... Dr. Mark Olson (17:17.478) their autonomic awareness or their body awareness. So, but because I'm trying to change it, which is different than, hey, you're showing up this way. And people normally label that as annoying. So we just need to fix it and change it. No, we don't need to fix it and change it. So to me, that's a big part of being trauma-informed is knowing when we accept and we have to accept at moments where we often don't. And then when to change it. and that's an important skill to have. That was just one piece of the trauma informed when we can go on about, should we talk about the neuroscience of pain and how this all works or? Lyndsay Soprano (17:56.846) You better believe it. That's where we're headed next, baby. Yeah, because I think that because pain is so tricky and it is so complicated. know, we you mentioned and obviously I mentioned at the beginning about how, you know, I don't sleep and all of these things and I wake up feeling this way. I feel this way every morning when I wake up to some certain degree. It's always a little different. And it is tricky. And I play this is why the name of this podcast is the Pain Game podcast. is because it is literally a game that I play with my body and my brain and the people that are around me as well. My sweetie being the most affected of all of this outside of myself, where it's like, it's constantly this game of chess and I do not play chess well at all. Actually, I don't play games very well at all and I'm not sure why. Mostly because I probably just wanna win and I don't in those certain circumstances. So I steer clear of them. But it's a tricky game that we do play in the pain world, because we're dealing with doctors and massage therapists and acupuncture and surgeons and this and this, take this pill, take that. I mean, it's it's unbelievably time consuming, like you said earlier, incredibly expensive. We're throwing money at our bodies like nobody's business. And at the end of the day, we're like, what is the root of all of this and why, how does this work? So jump in on that baby. Dr. Mark Olson (19:22.243) Yeah, yeah, let's do it. And you know, I love that this is called the pain game because I'm actually, you know, with my, model that I've developed for how pain works and how, intervent various interventions work. I am working on gamifying this model so like people can interact with it. And, and so, you know, to stay tuned and hopefully it'll be out in a while. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see. No promises. It's complicated. Lyndsay Soprano (19:24.205) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (19:42.766) Oh my God, like literally like playing like a video game or like an app. Oh my God, a teaser. How exciting. Dr. Mark Olson (19:51.941) coding. But anyway, so, okay, well, just to lay the foundation, which I imagine many of your viewers may know already this, but I think it's really important to have a really solid framework for the main pieces of the pain system. So we, I think we all know that we have signals going from our periphery, like our skin and muscles and connective tissue up to our brains. And that's usually like as far as many people get, we just think there's a signal and it goes up. But we also have to realize that there are signals that go down. And this is true for all sensory systems, vision, hearing, touch, everything. There's signals that are going from the brain back down to the spinal cord. And what those signals are doing, doesn't matter what the sense is, is it's taking information that you know about the world already, that you've learned in your whole life, and it's helping to filter, it's helping to process. what's coming up, because you're trying to figure out what's going on, what is happening right now, you know, what is this information that's coming in, and I'm going to process it based on what I already know about the world. So we're able to process things visually very easily because we already know some things about how the world works. Same thing with touch, I mean, same thing with pain. Your body is trying to figure out, what is this? Is this an important thing here, or is this not really important? Is this some random signal that I need to ignore? So that's two, there's the ascending signal and then there's the descending signal. But we also have to realize that for both of those signals, they exist in a kind of soup, a chemical soup that our endocrine system and our immune system is changing all the time. know, today it's like, let's throw in some carrots, let's throw in some oregano. You know, let's throw in some extra salt. And how well those ascending or descending signals are operating, is going to depend on the soup. So you can't just think about the descending signal, you can't just think about the descending signal, you have to think about the soup too. And you're talking about the soup when you talk about like, I didn't get enough sleep. Okay, that's not an ascending signal thing. I mean, unless you slept really weird, you know, like with your head really funny, you know, then okay, then probably created an ascending signal. Dr. Mark Olson (22:14.743) But otherwise, you know, didn't get enough sleep, didn't get enough rest, the nervous system didn't get to, to, you know, regroup. And, I mean, the rest of your body didn't get to regroup. Yeah, right. At a chemical level. Lyndsay Soprano (22:23.736) That's a good way of putting it, regroup, yeah. And that's every night since I was nine years old. I've never been able to regroup. Dr. Mark Olson (22:31.841) Yeah, so we're talking about the actual synapses. We're talking about the signaling in the neurons. There's places where those descending signals are supposed to come down and say, hey, this thing here is not a big deal. Let's just inhibit it. But for people with chronic pain, for some people with chronic pain, those signals get a pass, like the bouncer just left the building and everything just goes in. But that's also, sometimes, like if you're stressed, those signals that are coming down and are supposed to inhibit, they are rendered dysfunctional. And so they don't inhibit like they're supposed to. So there's a whole lot of, you know, there's a very complicated diagram, lots of pieces, but we have to understand that there's these three main things, ascending, descending, and sup. And... you we can't treat everybody the same because somebody's issue may be an ascending thing. There may be like some nerve that's an issue. People often think it's their muscles, but usually it's their nerves that are probably irritated in ways that are hard to detect. but it could be a lack of descending inhibition. It could be the soup. And so, and it could be a mix of those, you know, maybe you have neck pain for one reason. Maybe you have joint pain for another reason. You know, but you can tell it's the soup if it changes by month, you know if you're female You know if it changes by sleep if it changes with your moods, you know, or your your relationships You know those that's a lot more probably soup based but maybe also descending based Lyndsay Soprano (24:10.766) Relationships are definitely soup based. Well, and pain, mean, pain creeps in in all of these, like, well, I'm using the word tricky during this episode. I never use the word tricky. So this is the word of the day. Ding ding is tricky. My soup is like, it's so many different things. And we have all of these factors that are being thrown at us, whatever they are. From a stress perspective, I mean, I can just, I'm always a guinea pig on my show, so I have no problem throwing myself under the bus. It's like, I've got, most of this is first world problems, but I've got like 10 contractors here every single day of my life, and it's been like that for a year and a half. And then I've got two dogs barking and then I've got a sweetie who relies on me for most everything. And then I've got all that. Then I'm dealing with all of my stuff and I run my business and I run the show and all of the things. And at the same time, I'm still dealing with living in chronic pain and illness in my gut and in my arms and in my hands hurt, my joints hurt, my muscles hurt, my teeth hurt. Sometimes when I brush my hair, it feels like I just wanna shave my head so it's all gone so I don't have to do that anymore. Like those are all things that are in my soup. It's a big bowl, Mark, it's a big bowl. Dr. Mark Olson (25:29.609) Yeah. Yeah, so... Ha Yeah, I'm sorry you're dealing with all those things. Lyndsay Soprano (25:40.462) is what we, lot of people in this community are dealing with. And then hospitalizations. a lot of these people, I mean, have girlfriends of mine that I've met from this show and men that I've met from this show that are on oxygen. They've lost their voices. They cannot speak anymore. They can't walk anymore. Like, I mean, it's amazing the things that we are still persevering through. And how are we able to do that? How are we able to, from a neuroscience perspective, push through and bite on the stick? How do we do it? I mean, I know how I do it, but I wanna know from your perspective how I'm doing it. You know don't read questions off of anybody's list. That's not how I do this show. Dr. Mark Olson (26:17.538) Hmm. Those are big questions. Dr. Mark Olson (26:30.181) Yeah, well, we of, you know, stepping into another level of addressing the topic because pain, you know, isn't as simple as, you know, as signals, you know, reaching certain thresholds. There's also kind of the me part of ourselves, which I would center around, you know, ventral, medial, prefrontal cortex and limbic structures, you know, like, who am I? And Lyndsay Soprano (26:35.202) Yep. Dr. Mark Olson (26:59.071) What am I, wait, what's my story? That seems to play an important role in how people tolerate, I mean, everyone deals with the same event differently, right? Someone may be traumatized for a long time and someone else might just blow it off. And a lot of has to do with, well, what have they experienced already? People experience, people with developmental trauma might. have a harder time with a shock trauma event, like if they're in a car accident, for instance, they may not process that as well. They've had not as supportive a background as somebody else, perhaps. So the moment that how people deal with any particular moment has to do with what's come before in many ways. And it's not an easy thing to talk about. I think whether we... You know, what do we make of it, right? It's a... Okay, I'm gonna go back to a little bit of neuro to answer that question. if there's two areas in the brain that are relevant to, there's at least two, two important subsections. Somatosensory cortex is what tells you like this is where this is happening. And anterior cingulate cortex is kind of giving you the sense of this sucks. Well, then what they've done is they've gone in and turned off each of those independently. And I should back up and say that the definition of pain is something that is sensory and emotional and is unpleasant. The official definition is that it's unpleasant. But what's interesting is that if you knock out the activity in the anterior cingulate cortex and you just have this metasensory cortex activity, Lyndsay Soprano (28:25.389) Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (28:55.113) People report having pain that is not unpleasant. That's interesting. They can identify it as pain, but they say, it's not so much, it's big of a deal. And if you reverse it, they'll say, if you knock out the somatosensory cortex, they'll say, well, I'm experiencing an unpleasant feeling, but I can't tell you where it's coming from. Lyndsay Soprano (29:06.04) Yeah, okay. Dr. Mark Olson (29:18.206) So there's an integration there that happens as one says, this is where it's coming from. One says that I don't like this. you we have to that all that limbic activity is kind of telling us like, this is unpleasant. And I mean, look at kids, like if there's something unpleasant for them, it's in some ways it's not as unpleasant as it is for us because we think, my gosh, this is going to last a long time. You know, like an animal has an injury, they don't They don't like the sensation that's coming in, but they don't experience the suffering because they're not doing the, my gosh, this might go on for four months, right? So we do that to ourselves. We think, what happens? Lyndsay Soprano (29:57.247) No, the cheetah is not going like, man, I gotta go talk to somebody about this. Dr. Mark Olson (30:03.583) Right, but they have the ascending signals. Lyndsay Soprano (30:05.838) I just ate a hyena and that bitch ate my foot and I am not thrilled about it. Like I gotta go talk to somebody. No, that doesn't happen. Why is it so human? know? Cause you talk about the humanness of it. Dr. Mark Olson (30:16.307) Yeah, because we think, because we have a story about how our life is supposed to go and this isn't supposed to be part of it and it may never change and we worry about that and we get to project into the future and other people don't, as opposed to what is actually present. So sometimes what is actually present really is really awful and sometimes what is actually present might be a little bit of the... Lyndsay Soprano (30:22.222) Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (30:45.48) Catastrophizing too right so and everyone's gonna be different. You know I can't not saying this and this is not I Want to be clear this is not like it's all in your head kind of I'm not saying that And there are these really interesting components right of how we define ourselves and What you know who were made of what we're made of and what we're able to do Lyndsay Soprano (30:47.662) Mmm. Dr. Mark Olson (31:11.71) how will we get through? If you've experienced tough, tough times and you know you got through them, that might make it easier to get through the next one. Or if you've experienced tough times, it might just make you weary, right? And think, I don't know if I can handle any more of this. Lyndsay Soprano (31:28.408) Yeah, well, and the making me weary and I want I in fact I did an episode about this a few weeks ago about the the suicidal ideation in regards to there's we're done the like I can't put I can't go through this anymore. Right. And I've had those days. And here I am sitting right now going well, thank God. I didn't, well, whatever spirit, I'm not a Jesus person, but thank God for the purposes of this conversation that, you I didn't, you know, knock myself off there. But we have those moments that come in where the pain is so incredibly high and the overwhelm is there's no possible way you could think about ever living any longer if that is going to continue to happen. for any longer span of time than what we have. In fact, the episode that I did with one of my girlfriends, she has CRPS just like I do, and so we were each other's emergency contact. And she legitimately asked her husband to drown her in the bathtub. And she called me and she's like, I'm asking Brian to, I'm like, let's not do that. And then I've had those conversations with her back where the pain has been so high. where there's no chance that I could ever live that way any longer. But then my nervous system settles down again. And it's like, okay, you got it. Why does that happen? What is happening in our noodles that makes our nervous system go so crazy that it makes us think about literally jumping off of a cliff because of the amount of pain that we're in. And then we come back to going, okay. Dr. Mark Olson (33:24.541) But it's not crazy. I mean, it's completely rational, right? The organism wants to live. The organism also wants to, you know, feel good. Right? I mean, that's the fundamental, like, homeostatic drive for, I mean, everything is to, you for the body to be homeostatic, to feel good. And, you know, I think there's a way we forget that we are multitudes. We're not one single entity. We have many parts. Lyndsay Soprano (33:42.115) Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (33:53.539) And one part can say, I love this life, and another part can say, I don't want it anymore. And those are both like rational calculations for that job, for that part of the brain to do its job. They all exist in different proportions at different times. So, yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (34:13.026) Why? Why? Why? Why is that? That's what I'm asking you. As my brain guy here today, why is that? How can, why is that the case? Why is it that in one moment, I literally want to, my girlfriend wants to drown, be drowned by somebody and the next moment she's okay. And then in my side, I want to swallow a bottle of pills and the next moment I'm good to go. Why does that happen within our brains? Dr. Mark Olson (34:44.848) that everything is being driven by the desire to feel good. So it all goes back to the insula. Basically the insula is saying, this is where my body's at. And all of our behaviors are being driven by insula networks. It all comes back down to how do I feel? The decision for me to come on this podcast or have a conversation with somebody who disagrees with me about politics or something or to... Every decision that we make ultimately comes back down to how does it make us feel? And if it seems like there's nothing that you can do to feel better, it's a rational thought. Like the thought doesn't, you don't decide on having the thought, the thought just comes, right? And the thoughts actually occur. The processing for those thoughts happened before we're conscious of them. So the brain's figuring everything out, but everything that we're having conscious experiences of is a delay after it's actually happening in the brain. So it's a reasonable thought to think, this is so miserable and I have no figure way to solve it. So I guess the only solution I can come up with is to just not live. Now, hopefully we can create solutions. so that there are other options, right? Okay, I'm not here to say, hey, if you're paying, I'm just saying it's... Lyndsay Soprano (36:11.223) All right. Lyndsay Soprano (36:15.086) We are not condoning. Clipping yourself up. Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (36:20.986) It's a rational thing to have those thoughts when the whole organism at all times is making decisions based on what's gonna feel good, what's gonna bring me joy. Lyndsay Soprano (36:35.796) And in those places where we, where, this, and I'm speaking on behalf of chronic pain and illness because there are more people, unfortunately, than not that reach out to me in regards to this topic in relation to my show. My listeners, I mean, we've got so many people that are like, I can't go on any longer. I can't do this anymore. it's an added stress, but it's like a good stress for me as a host because I've got people that are reaching out to me that are asking questions like this where they are like, hard stop. I can't do this anymore. I don't wanna do it anymore. I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired, I'm tired, I'm tired. And all of that, it's like, how can we encourage the people that are listening right now that are in those spaces to understand that it is a natural feeling. It comes up and it goes back. can come, you know? How can we help encourage my listeners that may or may not find themselves or their loved ones? Because a lot of people listen for their loved ones as well. My sweetie has dealt with this with me, where I'm like, can't do this anymore. There's no fucking chance. Dr. Mark Olson (37:49.195) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (37:50.798) can't do it anymore. What is your advice for those people, you know? Dr. Mark Olson (37:58.307) Well, obviously we show up with compassion for any kind of suffering, right? Dr. Mark Olson (38:09.883) And again, around the idea of having thoughts, thoughts come and go. they say in Buddhism and meditation circles, thoughts are like clouds. They come and they go. And they're not really you. mean, we're getting very existential here by asking, who are you? And what makes you tick, really? Lyndsay Soprano (38:24.558) Mm. Dr. Mark Olson (38:37.91) Really what brought me into neuroscience was this question of who are you? Are you your thoughts? I mean, you thoughts all the time that you might later think, I, you know, I'm most ashamed that I had that thought or, I don't, I don't think that way. We say things like, I don't think that way anymore, or at least not today. Right. But maybe tomorrow we will. Right. So they're going to come and go based on like what the needs are. Lyndsay Soprano (38:58.486) Yeah, at least not right now. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (39:06.498) I mean, I think of it very much like I'm a calculation. Like there are certain needs that need to be met. These are the circumstances. There's predictable outcomes of those. So it's a predictable outcome to think those things. And it's awful to think those things. But what's awful is what leads to those thoughts in the first place is that the pain is so severe and the suffering is so great. So... You know, our job isn't to tell people that that's like wrong or bad or just to accept that that's how you feel. And I'm here with you. And yeah, I'm here with you no matter what, but it can be scary, right? If people say those things. I'm not an expert here on, you know, suicide hotline or anything, but. Lyndsay Soprano (39:56.94) No, and I'm not asking you to be, I'm just, no, no, no, and I'm not asking you to be. This is coming from a trauma-informed approach to care because the majority of the people that struggle with chronic illness and chronic pain from my experience, and I can insert myself in that, is so much of what my body holds, what I carry, body keeping the score. you know, has come from trauma. And that approach to our care and how we find practitioners, how we find healers, how we find caregivers, that approach, who we look for is different than being like, I need to find a pain doctor so that I can get rid of the pain. It's like, okay, well, let me tell you what that's gonna lead you down the road to. Most of it, big picture is gonna be surgeries and pills, which I did. I did that route and it made me far worse. Now this is my, and I'm speaking for myself here, but a lot of what you work with from a practitioner, I mean, I know that you work more with practitioner to practitioner, work to help train people and educate them to do the work on people like myself, right? So in speaking to those people that are working to help people like myself, how do you work with people like that? Because I know that you work in the educational space. mean, you've got all kinds of amazing, your blog posts are amazing, your video work is amazing. You've done incredible work in treatment and diagnosis and all that. Can you speak a little bit to the practitioners and also to us as well who need people like you about how we can better Approach people that live in the spaces that I live in and that a lot of my listeners live in as well Dr. Mark Olson (41:55.831) Yeah, well, in my class on trauma-informed care, I mean, there's a couple main themes that I teach and when I say teach, I don't mean lecture. I mean, we practice it and experience it from the inside. I think that if you just get a lecture on trauma-informed care, that's important to do, but it's not enough. We have to feel the concepts. from within and one of those is what I mentioned a little earlier about this idea of supporting people's defenses or their strategies to really recognize that however people are showing up is adaptive in some way and gaining a particular level of acceptance around that. And so what I do in the class, I don't just say that sentence and move on. you know, we explore it personally, like, yeah, what are those things that we do ourselves that we think of as, that's like a negative quality or whatever. And, you know, like, let's find like, why that's not actually a negative quality. And people think that I'm joking when I, when I say that sometimes, but we really go into it and realize, these things are, are useful and they, and they Lyndsay Soprano (42:53.422) Do that next question. Dr. Mark Olson (43:21.336) and they tie back to developmental trauma and their attachment with early caregivers and how the thing that we're doing now relates to, and I don't mean it's some exploration into the past where we figure everything out. That's not what I'm talking about. It's just a, it's a little too much to go into, or briefly here, it's a, that's one piece is to really grasp how important it is to support people however they're showing up, just in an accepting way. And the other part is being present. And not trying to fix, not trying to change things. I mean, it even comes back down to this, back to this posture topic that I mentioned at the very beginning. Like even the topic of trying to change people's posture, I think is a non-trauma-informed perspective. Because however your body is showing up right now, like you wouldn't be sitting in that chair if it was, if you had a more comfortable way to sit, you would be doing it. Like, so you're already there. I don't need to tell you to do it differently. It's probably, if I told you to do it differently, it probably wouldn't feel as good. So this whole attitude of like, need to change your body, I need to change your behavior. None of those things are trauma-informed. It's all about like assuming that whoever you're showing up right now, like your amazing self has got you here. Subconsciously, you figured these things out. Your body's figured out things. that minimized pain even though it seems like it's not like there are ways that are worse you that you figured out ways that are yeah and you figured out ways to behave that gets you through life and it's someone you can think it would be better if I did this or if I maybe but you figured out a way to now and that's that's like kind of the basis for what I'd like to convey in my classes is to Lyndsay Soprano (44:57.078) It could be worse, guys, it could be worse. Dr. Mark Olson (45:19.255) to really honor that people are showing up in a way that's amazing, that they've adapted, they've worked like you were saying before, like we got through this somehow. And the figuring out wasn't conscious for the most part. Lyndsay Soprano (45:29.902) I figured it out. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (45:36.638) Hmm. Yeah, you're probably right on that because I don't wake up in the morning and go, all right, Lindsey, bite on a stick. I just bite on my fake stick. I wake up and I just know the drill, what I got to do. And I have my routines and I get all I get all the things done that I need to do. I want them to be more comfortable and live in less pain. Yeah, I do. But at the same. Dr. Mark Olson (45:44.183) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (46:02.87) in the same token. And I know my sweetie always calls me an outlier because I'm a person that's like highly successful over, over, over, over, over, over the top. I mean, you know that and you've only known me just on a meet and greet and here like I'm over the top. I always have this energy and I have no idea where I can pull it from. When I die, my brain is being donated to science. That's a hundred percent accurate statement because something's going on in this noodle that can help other people. But it's like, it's just nuts how I can show up even in the worst of my pain. And that is a decision that I make and it is not a cognitive one of like, it's not like, Lindsay, you are going to do this today. Sometimes I have to do that, but overall now my brain has changed from living in chronic pain. Dr. Mark Olson (46:55.167) Absolutely. Lyndsay Soprano (46:56.204) Why do our brains change like that when you live it? Or I mean, not necessarily like in this, yeah, no, I'm gonna use chronic pain. why do our, how are our brains so able to adapt and why do they change like that when you live in chronic pain? Dr. Mark Olson (47:12.404) Yeah, I mean we usually think of how the brain is sort of a victim of the pain like okay You're in pain and then these you get these changes these neurons die here and that is it like that's one way that you most of Articles talk about it that way, right? but we also have to think about how Changes are being made to adapt to the current situation So I'm gonna throw one possibility out here for you, which this is just total speculation not even speculation just a possibility of Lyndsay Soprano (47:16.792) Sure. Lyndsay Soprano (47:39.896) Do it. Dr. Mark Olson (47:41.908) So when we look at those descending signals that I was talking about and how they inhibit the ascending signals at the level of the spinal cord, they're coming down from the brainstem and they're working with neurotransmitters like norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, et cetera, things you've heard about before. And people who take pain meds that aren't opioids, they're working with... the same kind of medicine that they work with like in antidepressants like norepinephrine, dopamine, and that's because that's what those descending signals use. And norepinephrine is a key one. We also call it like speed or adrenaline, same thing chemically. And so here's a possibility. One possibility is that your frontal lobe has basically figured out that if you can generate a little more norepinephrine, you can bootstrap this descending system to inhibit the ascending signals. I don't know if that's actually true, but that's a possibility of how that might work. So your spunkiness, you know, you... Cowgirl up, okay. Yeah. Is an adaptive feature psychologically, but it's... Lyndsay Soprano (48:57.4) We call it cowgirl up. Girl up. Yeah. Yeah my spunkiness Dr. Mark Olson (49:07.762) It's physiological, perhaps. So that's one way that you've created these neural pathways that do that, maybe. And that's a beautiful adaptation. Lyndsay Soprano (49:21.71) It's so interesting. Yeah, it's so interesting because we talk about like, there's a hashtag and I know apparently hashtags are going away. Okay, whatever. But there's a hashtag that is, know, the silent illness or, you know, there are these things that are about, you don't see us because You would not know right now that my entire body feels like I am standing, like I'm at a Salem witch trial right now and I am being burned alive. You would never know that during this conversation right now. That is exactly how I feel. Every single bone in my body feels like it's gonna shatter, but I'm here and I'm doing it and I don't understand why. And that is so interesting that I've created, I call my pain brain, right? I almost feel like I have two. I have my like Lindsay normal brain and then I have my pain brain. And my pain brain like drives all of this crazy shit all day long. And then I have my Lindsay brain where I can kind of like, all right, I can settle in from like 10 p.m. to 1 a.m. where I can like soothe and chill and not be, not feel like I'm in pain. So I have these, it's almost like I've had to, I've had compartmentalize. my pain from my reality. Does that make any sense? Because sometimes it doesn't make any sense to me. The brain is so amazing. Dr. Mark Olson (50:50.519) Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think there's a distraction factor. People often have pain at night when they go to bed because there's nothing to distract them, right? So, know, getting busy, making yourself have a million things to do. mean, people will say, I mean, there's a great example of like, well, you you really shouldn't be as busy, you should relax more. Well, no, because this is actually for this person. Lyndsay Soprano (50:59.149) Yes. Lyndsay Soprano (51:03.138) That's right. Dr. Mark Olson (51:18.389) that's actually an adaptive strategy to get through the day, right? So I think, you know, that, you know, it may not be a physiological thing. Maybe it is a distraction thing. All those things, you know, if you go into my model, you see all those components. There's that chemistry piece. There's the distraction piece. There's other pieces. Yep. Lyndsay Soprano (51:33.964) Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (51:40.886) Yeah, the distraction piece is definitely where I get my Academy Award, Meryl Streep style here. And my sweetie and I are so incredibly different in this regard because he doesn't need to do anything. He's like, cool. Like, everything's taken care of. I'm like, yeah, because I'm doing it. No, but it's just I have to keep myself busy. And I've always been that way, because I turned it into a coping mechanism. as an insomniac at such a young age. So I didn't know what to do all night long as a little girl while I was sleeping or while I wasn't sleeping, excuse me. And so I was painting my ceilings and I was doing all of these other things. My parents would come out at three o'clock in the morning, I'm moving my bed from one side of the room to the other, know? Doing all these things to kind of cope with my noodle that was just constantly on at such a young age. Childhood trauma was part of that, but it... it just moved into my adulthood. just now over the, well, I guess I was diagnosed, I guess almost a decade ago now, but I saw when I did timeline therapy, I could see when certain health issues were starting to happen and how I was trying to cope through those and my behaviors within those stages of life. And now I am looking back at all of those and I'm seeing how those behaviors stemmed from certain things that happened to me and how I cope through them by being a busybody. Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (53:08.595) Yeah, it was a very common trauma adaptation to get busy and And then you know could be so it could be adaptive for trauma could be adaptive for pain I mean you might even go as far as saying that you know, sometimes pain might be a way to distract from the trauma, know from like physical pain distraction from an emotional pain like I mean, but again, none of these things can we say like It's true for everybody, you know Everyone's got a different formula Lyndsay Soprano (53:13.228) Yeah. Yeah. Lyndsay Soprano (53:20.642) Mm-hmm. Lyndsay Soprano (53:28.056) Sure, yep, yep, yep. Lyndsay Soprano (53:34.882) This is it. Right. Yeah. I just wanted me to be the guinea pig. I'm always a guinea pig on this show because it's the best way to do it. But I think it's so incredibly fascinating the work that you do. let's let's just quick talk. know that we're my gosh we've been talking for so long already. So let's quick talk about what you what you what you have coming up in regards to. Working with people, know that you mostly focus on working with practitioners, but you also work with us as well. But as a whole, can you talk to us a little bit about what you do, how you're helping the professionals, how you're helping us so we can help you back? Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (54:13.062) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have a number of classes. I have a bunch of on-demand classes that anybody could take and I would say that it doesn't matter whether you're professional or non-professional, they're totally relevant. I've made them relevant to everybody. it's not like somebody takes a class and you needed to have a bunch of classes. This is made with the assumption that you're starting from scratch on every topic. So I have classes on pain, classes on trauma, classes on... interoception, numerous other ones that are on demand. And then I have live classes, which are more expensive, that are also made for professionals, but also perfectly fine for anyone on trauma and pain too. So they're all on my website. And I mean, for that matter, I do consultations. mean, if people wanted to talk about their situation, I'd be happy to talk on the phone and... you know, do a Zoom call and help people think through, you know, what might be happening. You know, I mean, ultimately we're all guessing what's actually going on. You know, can't really get underneath there to truly see. But we can kind of logically think through things and, you know, if you have the, if it comes up this way versus that way, then these kinds of things will probably be more helpful than those things, vice versa. So. Those are conversations we could have and still recognize that there's a big mystery. Lyndsay Soprano (55:49.134) You got that right. And that's what we're trying to unravel here, especially on this show. mean, we're trying to unravel the mystery behind the riddle, right? Why does it feel like my body is going to break and shatter into a million pieces? Where is that coming from? And I know that we do a lot of work here in healing, not just from a clinical perspective, because that's actually a small fraction of what we work with on this show. we, the understanding, the reasons why our brain operates the way that it does is so incredibly fascinating to me. And there's like no end, like you said, it's like we can talk, you and I could like, there's so many offshoot topics that we could go down trying to harness this episode into like a couple is hard to do. And I know that's been challenging for us today, but my gosh, it is so amazing to speak with you and to hear about our brain. And also it made me feel today a little less, I know it sounds horrible, but it makes me feel a little less bad for feeling bad. I don't know if that makes any sense, but to me it does. Why does that make it? Why does that make any sense? Yeah. Dr. Mark Olson (57:04.388) Yeah, I mean that's part of the acceptance, know, of... Yeah, because that's a very common... That the feeling bad about feeling bad is very common, right? And relates to trauma probably, you know, many cases. And so I'm glad that... Lyndsay Soprano (57:16.525) there. Lyndsay Soprano (57:23.788) and in my family, it's the Jewish Guilt Olympics over here, you know. We always say that here. There's just the shame and the guilt and the things that come from feeling bad about things that happened to us that have formed who we are. But there's a certain place where it's like, when are we going, how can our brains let go of past trauma in a healthier way? And that is where... Dr. Mark Olson (57:29.339) Well there's this Lyndsay Soprano (57:53.086) That's kind of like the epicenter of what is actually turned into my show. This thing is just ebbed and flowed and has moved and it's grown. And it's been this amazing thing that's occurring. And it's like, how can we get better without feeling so bad about having to get better? Dr. Mark Olson (58:12.344) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's never about like getting rid of the trauma. It's just about working with where we've come from and what we've built upon. And it's like when you see a tree that has this really cool curve, know, like, what was it going around? We think it's really beautiful. But I think it's really interesting that we think, that tree curve is really cool. But when we have this funny curve in our spine, we think, that's such a terrible thing. Like, well, maybe that's adaptive too. So, you know, there's lots of interesting things there, but I guess I will add that with the classes, you know, people, I think that anybody would get a lot out of taking my pain class because it really sets the framework to think about one's experience and not get, you come away with a better way of deciding like, is this going to be a useful strategy? or not when pursuing possible treatments and solutions. So I think it's really useful to have that. Because I don't really think anybody lays it out quite as extensively as I do while still being able to talk a normal English term. Lyndsay Soprano (59:30.136) Well, thank you for saying that because a lot. This is why I started the show in the first place. I was trying to find shows about pain and I was really struggling because a lot of them were so clinical in nature that it was like, my gosh, I want to get to the root causes. I want to get into the emotions. I want to get into the reasons we're here. I want to talk about all of that. And then we can then we can figure out all the rest of that stuff. But. Dr. Mark Olson (59:52.494) Lindsay, can you hear me? Lyndsay Soprano (59:57.646) Like I started the episode with about how I love to learn and how I always want education. I learn something every single day when I speak with people like you today. And one of the things that's so incredibly amazing is that we get to learn from you and we get to find new ways of Dr. Mark Olson (01:03:28.448) You've reached Lindsay Soprano with Bound by Marketing. Please leave. get back with you as soon as I can. For faster response, please text me at 949-610. you can. Lyndsay Soprano (01:05:45.187) I hotspotted. OK, we're back. OK, Steve, you're to have to edit a little bit of this out. OK, where the hell were we? my God. I'm talking to my producer real quick. So, Steve, my Internet, my guys in construction just kept my Internet line. So I'm on a hot spot right now, but I'm pulling back, Mark. So let's see what we're. Yeah, say what you were saying and then we'll pull it back in. All right. OK. Dr. Mark Olson (01:05:45.335) All right. Alright. Dr. Mark Olson (01:06:07.829) You want me to say what I was saying? Okay. Yeah, so I think, I think really anybody would would benefit anybody with pain or somebody with a loved one with pain would benefit a lot from my pain class. And I'm not just saying that because I'm trying to sell something. I think, you know, I designed it to help people figure things out because I've had to try to figure it out and I want people to also understand it. having this framework that I give people to think about pain and help them know, make better decisions around like what might be useful, what might not, and how all that works. And it's not just an academic class. I mean, I get into the academics and I do it in a way that I think, I get into details that I don't think are easy to find and I say it in ways that are easy to understand. so it's not like this heavily heady neuroscience lecture, even though it also is, but it's also very heart-based. You know, I think a lot of times, Sometimes my classes, sometimes people, there's actually tears sometimes in my pain class, even though it's supposed to be a geeky neuroscience class. it's coming from a very human place. And whether you take the on-demand class alone was wonderful to get the information. And if you take it in person, then you get that personal element, but you still get the same content. Lyndsay Soprano (01:07:39.397) And like I had opened up the show actually, we're rounding this out perfectly is that one of the things I love is I'm always a lifelong learner. Like I'm working on my PhD on being amazing. And I'm writing a book and I'm researching at every single time I do an episode with somebody, I am researching these people, I'm researching what they do. So I'm learning about what they do. I'm educating myself, I'm making myself a more depth and more breadth to who I am. and what I can offer not only myself and my livelihood and my healing, but also my sweetie and my dogs and my family. it goes out at the widespread reach of being educated and learning more will not only help you be more adaptive, but it will help you be more humble. It'll make you feel more in tune with the people that are around you. And it will also help you not feel so helpless. And I find that in a place where we feel helpless. whether you're living in chronic pain or you are living with somebody with chronic pain and illness, whatever that may be. We all need to learn a little bit more about how we can, it's like marriage counseling, but pain counseling, right? Like we need the help to help each other get through these things in life. And life is tough. It's a journey. It's an adventure. Sometimes it's up and sometimes it down. When it's down, we need somebody to help lift us up. We need people to understand a little bit more about why we do the things that we do from a trauma-informed approach to care, as well as helping us deal with our day-to-day pain, like, ugh, you know, the why I feel like I'm shattering into glass every step I take today. My sweetie knows this, you know? He knows, like, all right, just don't talk to her. Is that part of your class? Don't talk to your spouse when they're in pain, because sometimes that helps. Dr. Mark Olson (01:09:33.853) Yeah, that's the introduction in the middle of the end. Lyndsay Soprano (01:09:37.349) No, but education is key. Education 101, don't bug a bitch. Lyndsay Soprano (01:09:47.117) No, but seriously, it is so incredibly important for us to educate ourselves on what's going on within the chronic pain community. And also just, hey, learn more about what's going on with our brains because it might help you with anxiety, depression. I mean, you name it. There's so many different things that you can help us work through and work on. And I think that's amazing. And thank you so much for doing that for your practitioners as well as us. Dr. Mark Olson (01:10:16.939) Absolutely. Yep. Thank you for what you're doing. Lyndsay Soprano (01:10:18.071) It's awesome. Well, you know, it's it is now giving pain purpose. That's what I wake up doing. That's it. That's my it's a trademark trade. Is a trademark trade line. No, that's not how that goes. It's trademark. So nobody can take it now. But I am giving pain purpose and pain doesn't necessarily mean physical pain. It can be anything, guys, you know. So before we hit the dusty trail here, is there anything that you like to leave our listeners with? Dr. Mark Olson (01:10:48.536) well, I would say, just- Good to have community, important to have community, and I'm glad that you had this community to rely on each other. I hope that some of our conversation today was useful and go out there and learn some neuroscience to help yourself out. Lyndsay Soprano (01:11:15.205) Get your neuroscience up, baby. Yeah, well, God knows I, sometimes I feel like I should have been a doctor. Dr. Soprano, that sounds very sexy. All right, well, we can find Dr. Olson all over the place. He's on Insta and Facebook. He also has a free community, dr-olson, just to make sure you're listening, .com forward slash the helping professional. You can find it. I will put it in show notes and social media and all the things. There are downloadable resources on various topics, but there are some that are focused on trauma and pain as well. So you can go in and dive into wherever suits your fancy. He's got all kinds of classes that are coming out based on what date we're distributing this episode. We'll be able to find, I'll be putting that stuff in show notes and email marketing and so on and so forth. But you can find him at dr-olson.com and on all of his socials. Thank you so much for joining us again today. It's been a pleasure speaking with you and seeing you again. Yeah, thank you so much. You are exclusively invited to share this VIP pain journey together. Let's get to the heart of how to heal with you by my side. Please follow the pain game podcast wherever you digest your podcast content. We will be there. Visit us at thepaingamepodcast.com and follow us on all the socials. Thanks for listening, my little VIPs. Catch you. Dr. Mark Olson (01:12:16.105) Thank you so much. Lyndsay Soprano (01:12:41.719) on the other side.