Latest / Ministry Minded / Church History, Revivalism, and the Myth of the Golden Age with Obbie Todd

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Church History, Revivalism, and the Myth of the Golden Age with Obbie Todd · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:15
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:18
  in our messy
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: ministries.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:21
  I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in
• 0:24
  Paxanis,
• 0:25
  Pennsylvania.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for tuning in.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: On this episode,
• 0:28
  I'm delighted to have once again on the show my good friend and
• 0:32
  brother in
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: ministry,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Avi Tyler Todd.
• 0:35
  It's been a while since he and I have been able to catch up on
• 0:38
  life and ministry
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: and just get together to talk about history and theology,
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: which is what we always end up doing somehow or another.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this particular conversation is no different.
• 0:49
  And I'm just thrilled that you kind of get to listen in on our
• 0:54
  conversation
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: together as we talk about a number of
• 0:57
  I think intriguing subject subjects that may not feel timely if
• 1:01
  you just read a
• 1:03
  headline or what have you but I think actually when you get
• 1:06
  into it I don't think
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: there's anything more timely than understanding
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Church History,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: especially for this particular moment that we are in as a church,
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  SPEAKER_00: as churches,
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  SPEAKER_00: as a nation,
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  SPEAKER_00: this particular moment within human history itself.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can learn a lot by looking at the past,
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  by seeing the ways in which God's providence has always pierced
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  through whatever
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: crises mankind is going through.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Actually I think this conversation is going to be very timely.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully you can sit back and relax and enjoy this.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about a number of subjects related to American church history,
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: related to church history as a whole,
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  related to the ways in which we can understand our nation's
• 1:51
  founding and the ways
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  in which the church has played a role in that and the ways in
• 1:55
  which now even still
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: the church
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Brasile
• 2:26
  in church history where there has been something else that the
• 2:29
  church needs to do
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  SPEAKER_00: or declare or announce.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's always been the same and we keep coming back to that.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, sit back, relax, enjoy this episode.
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  We talk about history and so much more and I think you're going
• 2:40
  to enjoy this and
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  SPEAKER_00: so I'll catch you on the other side.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Abbey, it is so good to have you back on the podcast.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking back in the archives.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is the sixth time you've appeared on the Ministry of Minded podcast.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I joked a couple of episodes ago with another guest that,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: this is very pretentious of me.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if my show were like SNL, you would be the most reoccurring host.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So number one, how does that make you feel?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But also, how are you?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's so good to have you back on the Ministry of Minded.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's been like five years.
• 3:13
  Our last episode was in 2021,
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  which is hard to believe,
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  but man,
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  how are you?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to see you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Good to see you too, brother.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing well.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a gorgeous day in South Carolina, a state you know well.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's been a lot that's transpired in five years.
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  SPEAKER_01: I am now serving in a, I guess, a
• 3:43
  what what we would call a associate pastor role here at Cross
• 3:48
  Community Church in
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  SPEAKER_01: Beaufort,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: South Carolina.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: My official title is teaching pastor or pastor of teaching.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we were
• 3:58
  depending on where you where it's written but I I serve
• 4:02
  basically under our lead
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  pastor who is Taylor Burgess he's a North Carolina boy and I
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  basically just kind of
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  SPEAKER_01: oversee
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  SPEAKER_01: Baptism classes,
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  SPEAKER_01: membership classes,
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  SPEAKER_01: course seminars,
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  SPEAKER_01: anything with smaller or larger size teaching,
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  SPEAKER_01: I kind of get to exercise my teaching gifts.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so the Lord's kind of placed us here and we love it.
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  SPEAKER_01: The ministry is always changing,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: and this is a new role for me in terms of just being on a larger staff.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've never worked on a staff with quite this many people before,
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  SPEAKER_01: and by God's grace,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's a great team to work on.
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  And so I was joking with my dad the other day that his life...
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  My dad is Abbie Dale Todd.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm Abbie Tyler Todd.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was joking with my dad that my life and his life are like,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: our lives are kind of becoming the same.
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  SPEAKER_01: Neither one of us have any hair anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: We both have two kids.
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  SPEAKER_01: We both drive trucks, old trucks.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're both assistants.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like just going down the way.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm basically repeating my dad's life.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was a teacher.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a teacher.
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  um so by God's grace history was repeated itself um but anyway
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  we're enjoying
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  Beaufort and we've only been here for about nine or ten months
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  so awesome yeah you
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  are in the motherland the buckle of the Bible belt known as
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  South Carolina and uh
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  yeah just kind of give us a scoop because you went from the
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  south to the north and
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  SPEAKER_00: now you're back in the south again um is it true that
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  South Carolina is the buckle of the Bible Belt and what are
• 5:58
  some things that you've
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  been just the real honest question is how has it been
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  transitioning from being a
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  senior pastor to being a part like you were kind of hinting at
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  that to kind of
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  SPEAKER_00: finding your niche and your role there as part of a ministry team
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's been a big transition culturally, professionally.
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  SPEAKER_01: Southern Illinois,
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  SPEAKER_01: not that anyone thought that it was similar,
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  SPEAKER_01: but just in case anyone has any doubts,
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  SPEAKER_01: Southern Illinois and South Carolina are nothing alike.
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  SPEAKER_01: Southern Illinois is the heart land.
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  It is,
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  I mean,
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  when I walked out my back door in Southern Illinois,
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  I walked into a cornfield.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, which I really liked.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was very Field of Dreams-ish where we lived.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it was very just, just salt of the earth folks.
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  I mean,
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  we are one of our elders in our last church was like a huge
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  cattle rancher.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, they, they like corn.
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  SPEAKER_01: They like baseball.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're either a Cubs fan or a, or a St. Louis Cardinals fan.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we, and it was also my, also my wife's hometown.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: and for it's a long story to tell but the Lord called us here we were not
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  anticipating moving away from the Ohio Valley and I'm from
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  Western Kentucky which
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  is not far away from Southern Illinois but this this role kind
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  of came up and I
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  wasn't eyeballing something like this originally but I saw the
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  church and I saw
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  SPEAKER_01: that God was clearly at work across community
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  and so just we came down here and it was a lot like what we
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  thought and it wasn't
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  we at one point Kelly my wife and our and our twins we have
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  nine-year-old twins
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  Roman and Ruby we had lived in Atlanta for three years so we've
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  lived in this
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  SPEAKER_01: corner of the United States for a time but Beaufort is a
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  SPEAKER_01: It's very different.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like we're equidistant between Savannah and Charleston.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're right in the heart of the Lowcountry.
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  So it's nothing to see people walking around with like croquis
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  and sperries and,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: people going to either the beach or people just hanging out.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a huge marine population here.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you've got that element.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of how it's different.
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  SPEAKER_01: You've got a lot of what we call snowbirds.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it's also very different in the sense that according to a poll,
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  There are only like three or four places in the Bible Belt
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  counties that do not
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  SPEAKER_01: have a Protestant majority,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we are one.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have a very heavy Catholic population here.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's unique.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's also not a very well-churched area.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um
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  There is this kind of resurgence now trying to plant churches
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  in the place that
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  SPEAKER_01: originally was sending the churches 200 years ago.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a unique place because you're in the heart of the Bible Belt,
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  SPEAKER_01: but you're also in a very relatively speaking unchurched place.
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  And so that's one of the things that makes it really
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  interesting to serve here.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  I can see how that would create this interesting dynamic
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  because I think one of the
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  tropes of the South is that everyone goes to church and they've
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  been Christian
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  SPEAKER_00: their whole life.
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  So it can create this interesting dynamic when there is this
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  newer need or maybe
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  SPEAKER_00: newer sense of urgency,
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  SPEAKER_00: maybe?
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  Is that the right word for clear gospel centrality,
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  if I can put it that way?
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  yeah there's there's there are more than a few dead churches
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  here um and a lot of
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  these churches are really old and a lot of them are in my
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  opinion I'm a historian
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  are really beautiful on the outside and a lot of them have like
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  old history markers
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  I live in a town where the entire downtown district is a
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  historical district um
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  SPEAKER_01: it's it's extremely old and you go down you go down what we call um
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  SPEAKER_01: Bay Street on the water.
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  And it's like antebellum home after antebellum home after
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  antebellum home.
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  SPEAKER_01: Southern Living this year voted us eighth best little town in the South.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you have a lot of people who want to live here.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you have this like huge marine population.
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  SPEAKER_01: So you have a ton of Midwesterners,
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  SPEAKER_01: a lot of New Yorkers And then you have a lot of these like 18 to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: pick an age where people come in and they're,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  they're serving our country And so many of them are either lost
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  or they were in
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  SPEAKER_01: church and they've fallen away
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  so the chaplain ministry is huge here we minister a lot to the
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  military community
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  and that's another unique aspect of this ministry is we and I
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  can't speak to this
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  personally but because I've only been here nine months but we
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  have a unique element
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  here where you will see a family for three or four years and
• 12:11
  then they'll roll off
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  in their cycle and they'll be sent somewhere else and you won't
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  ever see them again
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  SPEAKER_01: so yeah
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  SPEAKER_01: There's a culture here of like,
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  SPEAKER_01: hey,
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  SPEAKER_01: we've got folks sometimes for three or four years,
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  SPEAKER_01: so we want to train them,
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  SPEAKER_01: we want to teach them,
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  SPEAKER_01: we want to equip them.
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  And then our approach here at Cross is kind of like,
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  hey,
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  we're sending them out.
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  And so it's really cool to see people who used to go here who
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  are now in Japan,
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  SPEAKER_01: who are now in...
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  29 Palms or whatever California and they write back or they
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  come back and say hey
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  this is this was a really great church and we learned a lot
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  here and you know we're
• 12:51
  walking in our faith somewhere else so it's just a really
• 12:55
  unique context you just
• 12:59
  can't you can't walk down the street here and assume that
• 13:02
  anyone you meet is a
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  Christian and that's just my parents are visiting for the first
• 13:08
  time in three weeks
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  SPEAKER_01: And I keep trying to describe to them what it's like Because,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: at first they thought I lived next to the beach And I'm like,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  I don't really live next to the beach I live next to a lot of
• 13:23
  water And then they
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: were kind of like,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:28
  there's I think they kind of thought it was more like Hilton
• 13:32
  Head Which is only
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: like 45 minutes away
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: But Hildenhead is kind of where all the tourism is,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: like all the big buildings,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: all the golf resorts,
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: all the big,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: where people go for,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: vacation.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And Buford is kind of like this little...
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like this Mayberry-ish town.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of old.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of sleepy.
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  And people are kind of wanting to develop it and then kind of
• 13:58
  got all these other
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: young or these older folks who were like,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: we want to keep it the way it is.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um...
• 14:05
  So it's old and it's new and it's very unique Yeah that is
• 14:09
  interesting When I was
• 14:12
  in churches and then also just in different places in Florida I
• 14:16
  remember having the
• 14:17
  same sense of like transience like there's always like people
• 14:20
  coming in and out and
• 14:22
  it was very different when we moved to Pennsylvania when you
• 14:24
  were realizing that
• 14:26
  this is the place where people have been going to church since
• 14:28
  their great great
• 14:28
  grandmothers like started going there so there's like this
• 14:32
  difference in terms of
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: like generational
• 14:35
  Heritage and the things that are cherished and you kind of
• 14:37
  hinted at it but how
• 14:40
  like maybe you specifically but also your church across
• 14:43
  community how does that or
• 14:46
  how does that change the way you approach discipleship the way
• 14:50
  you approach getting
• 14:52
  the gospel into people's lives in very tangible ways how does
• 14:58
  it and does it those
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: are I guess the same question yeah well the transience
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: The military community had to parse that out.
• 15:08
  The military community presents challenges,
• 15:12
  but it also presents strengths.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Military families have a very strong sense of duty.
• 15:20
  They also have a very strong sense of,
• 15:22
  hey,
• 15:22
  we're not with our family,
• 15:24
  our extended family.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have deep roots in this place.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to go out and find a place that we can find community.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times they are much more intentional.
• 15:34
  about finding a church and getting involved in a church in a
• 15:38
  community group than
• 15:39
  say if someone were ministering in a town where it was like
• 15:44
  10,000 people and
• 15:45
  everybody knew everybody and everybody's mama and grandmama and
• 15:49
  aunt went to that
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: church.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you've never met that kind of church, Brad.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, never, never.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's that.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it does present challenges in the sense that You know,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: you have a community where people are busy You have people,
• 16:15
  they're serving their country And they're doing things that are
• 16:19
  often very
• 16:20
  sacrificial and heroic But you also have to let them know that
• 16:25
  And preach,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: and this is why expository preaching is like
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: One of the fundamentals here at our church that,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: you are a soldier in the greatest army.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, they're Marines.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I misspoke.
• 16:47
  um in the greatest military on earth but you are once you are
• 16:52
  once you believe in
• 16:53
  the blood of Christ and you are adopted into his family you are
• 16:57
  enlisted into the
• 16:59
  service of the high king of heaven um and so it's it's about
• 17:03
  preaching that you
• 17:04
  know you you know hey maybe we we're not going to get into
• 17:07
  Martin Luther too much
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: here but I know you're already thinking two kingdoms here um
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: First of many Martin Luther references, I'm sure.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: But so there's that at play.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the greatest challenge,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Brad,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: undoubtedly,
• 17:24
  is you have a lot of people here who they came here because
• 17:29
  they saw us in Southern
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Living.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: They have retired.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: They have a boat.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: They want to golf.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I need Jesus?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:41
  What in the world is going wrong with my life that I need to
• 17:45
  add Jesus to it?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Why in the world do I need to carry my cross and die to myself?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that's just in American culture in general.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's ratcheted up to the nth degree here for many people.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so there is a continuous emphasis here at this church upon,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: and I preach probably once every six to eight weeks maybe,
• 18:17
  there's a continuous emphasis upon repentance and calling
• 18:21
  people back to the cross
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:28
  Especially the way we define as Baptists and I think we'll
• 18:30
  probably talk about this
• 18:31
  later but as Baptists we believe it's not just believers
• 18:33
  baptism this is a
• 18:34
  believers church so we're to be set apart from the world and it
• 18:39
  starts with being
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: converted and delivered from the domain of darkness and into light
• 18:45
  yeah precisely and I think it it ought to have well I remember
• 18:51
  feeling similar
• 18:51
  things that you're kind of wrestling with or talking about
• 18:54
  hinting at um when I was
• 18:56
  in a church in Palm Beach County like there's this maybe it's
• 19:00
  the coast I don't
• 19:00
  know maybe it's the beach life and he said it is very coast but
• 19:05
  that but that
• 19:05
  coastal I'm sure do you see those like salt life coastal living
• 19:11
  like uh bumper
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: stickers oh yeah
• 19:14
  You bet I do Oh I used to hate those But I think there I think
• 19:22
  there is like this
• 19:25
  There is this weird Salt life coastal living sort of way of
• 19:30
  life And I don't mean
• 19:31
  that in a kitschy sort of cliche way I think it's pretty
• 19:35
  tangible Which is
• 19:39
  Like why yeah why do I need you it's almost like this I can't
• 19:41
  be bothered with
• 19:43
  Jesus let alone organized religion you know and maybe maybe
• 19:48
  that was good for my
• 19:48
  grandparents and the boomers but like now that I'm near
• 19:52
  retirement or retired like
• 19:54
  I don't want to be bothered with that anymore and um and and
• 19:58
  this is again why I
• 19:59
  think like part of like the preaching process and why
• 20:02
  expositual preaching is so
• 20:03
  important as you kind of mentioned that your church is focusing
• 20:06
  on and rightly so
• 20:08
  is bringing people to their need like you know like the
• 20:11
  reformed look at this would
• 20:12
  be let's preach through the words of long gospel let's bring
• 20:15
  people to see their
• 20:18
  need and their desperation and then relieve them with the word
• 20:22
  of Christ which
• 20:24
  again is this is why that's so important why it's it's a
• 20:28
  function of I would say
• 20:30
  faithful New Testament churches as you've been there in Buford
• 20:35
  for nine months
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: number one
• 20:38
  like just how are you handling all the history that you're
• 20:41
  surrounded by but then
• 20:43
  also what what would you say to like modern evangelical types
• 20:50
  who sometimes don't
• 20:51
  always have a keenness or fondness for their own history what
• 20:56
  would you say to them
• 20:57
  to say like this is why your history is so important for our
• 21:06
  present moment so to
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: speak
• 21:11
  And I know like I'm constantly doubling up questions I gotta
• 21:14
  stop doing that so
• 21:15
  anyways Answer those however you will Sure Well At first glance
• 21:24
  Some people would
• 21:25
  say I don't know that I've ever really Written or spoken on
• 21:29
  this particularly But
• 21:30
  everybody that Follows me on Twitter or Facebook Knows that I
• 21:34
  live in just a place
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's like a historian's paradise
• 21:39
  but you know hey when I lived in southern Illinois I was only
• 21:47
  30 minutes from where
• 21:51
  Abraham Lincoln debated Stephen Douglas in their famous slavery
• 21:56
  debates in 1857 you
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: know I was only 30 minutes from the confluence of
• 22:06
  the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers in Cairo where General Grant
• 22:09
  came down and went to
• 22:11
  Vicksburg and so living in Southern Illinois which was by the
• 22:16
  way a beautiful place
• 22:17
  it's it's a lot of corn but there's there's a Shawnee National
• 22:20
  Forest is very
• 22:21
  beautiful place so my point the first point being that if you
• 22:26
  look hard enough
• 22:28
  usually wherever you are and you're in the state of
• 22:31
  Pennsylvania my goodness
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: gracious you can probably throw a rock and hit something
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: History is never far wherever you are Wow,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: that rhymed So my next point would be You know,
• 22:47
  history is not always just something that's beautiful It's also
• 22:53
  something that has
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: gravity,
• 22:55
  it's weighty It's not just something we can use to pat
• 22:59
  ourselves on the back Or
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: say,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I could go back to this place And the reason for that is
• 23:05
  If you go down to downtown Beaufort Which by the way has one of
• 23:11
  the oldest Baptist
• 23:12
  churches in the American South The oldest church is First
• 23:17
  Baptist of Charleston But
• 23:20
  Baptist Church of Beaufort is It's got to be number three or
• 23:26
  number three or four
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: But just one block away, you have the Harriet Tubman Memorial.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Harriet Tubman was here.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: She was a part of the Cumbie River Raid.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: She assisted,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: and it's debated how involved she was,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: but books have been written on,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Harriet Tubman came several times into the American South to free slaves,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Buford was a stopping point for her at one point,
• 24:00
  and she assisted in the federal government coming in and
• 24:06
  raiding a plantation.
• 24:10
  And so we have a big monument there,
• 24:13
  a church that she might have attended at some point.
• 24:17
  and one block away is what we call the secession house and it
• 24:22
  is the house where
• 24:24
  the very first supposedly the very first conversation was ever
• 24:31
  held on the
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: possibility of seceding from the union and so
• 24:39
  you know one block away you have us celebrating like the life
• 24:43
  of this the the the
• 24:45
  black Moses Harriet Tubman and in another block you have the
• 24:50
  house where apparently
• 24:52
  the first conversations were ever held to secede from the union
• 24:56
  in defense of
• 24:57
  slavery and not to get into the causes of the war so to speak
• 25:00
  but it really depends
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: on which monument you want to go visit
• 25:06
  and I think that my point is Buford is a testament to the fact
• 25:11
  that even 200 years
• 25:14
  ago America was just as divided just as riled up just as flawed
• 25:24
  just as sinful
• 25:26
  there were great men and women and there was much to celebrate
• 25:31
  and there is much to
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: remember
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: because of the great things God has done.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: However, it was not a, it was not a very rose.
• 25:41
  We just can't look at America with always with a rose colored
• 25:44
  lens because it was
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: such an imperfect union.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, at one time it was a fractured union.
• 25:50
  Um,
• 25:50
  so the history here reminds me that,
• 25:54
  um,
• 25:55
  God has brought through,
• 25:56
  brought us through a lot.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: But even when America was sundered and the union was no more for,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: the union was remained,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: but even when there was a civil war,
• 26:08
  the gates of hell still did not prevail against the church and
• 26:14
  that God's plans
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: were not frustrated.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And at the very least,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: we can look back at the past and say,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of evil took place,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of division took place,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: but God's providential
• 26:28
  plan to unite all things under the feet of Jesus was still
• 26:33
  executed and was in his
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: perfect design.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a good point, Bobby.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it resonates with me because that is like this
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Very present thing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's like this thing that we can feel.
• 26:50
  Division,
• 26:51
  very disparate tribes of people trying to get you to fall on
• 26:57
  their side or the other.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've often referred to this as like the first take problem with America.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: with like Stephen A and Skip Bayless,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: that horrible show on ESPN where it's like you can't just say
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great way to say that.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Jordan is the best ever or LeBron James is the best ever.
• 27:16
  You have to also do so while putting down the fact that you are
• 27:20
  totally ludicrous
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: for thinking that the opposite side can hold their view.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this first take-ism of...
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Politics, let alone theology, has just driven people to the polls.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean the voting polls,
• 27:38
  but the opposite ends of these spectrums of whatever thing that
• 27:43
  you want to
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: associate with is driving people to the ends of those polar opposites.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a good reminder that
• 27:55
  Even though that feels like such a consequence of modernity,
• 28:00
  that's actually not true.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: This has always been the case in one regard or another.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've often said this to people that our world
• 28:11
  is the is it feels the way it feels probably because and I
• 28:17
  don't want to blame
• 28:18
  everything on this but probably because of social media to a
• 28:21
  large extent like I
• 28:24
  I've often said to people and I'll say it like I don't think we
• 28:27
  were made as humans
• 28:29
  to consume the amount of information that we are consuming so
• 28:33
  there's no wonder why
• 28:37
  We are people who are like breaking the records on anxiety and
• 28:42
  depression and those
• 28:43
  levels that are constantly increasing in younger and younger
• 28:47
  demographics and
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: people.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: We're just consuming
• 28:53
  We're consuming too like the like you think about like there
• 28:56
  were people that were
• 28:58
  that didn't know that the war had ended until way later way
• 29:01
  later after Appomattox
• 29:03
  there were still people like probably in corners of the south
• 29:06
  still like wondering
• 29:07
  when they were going to get their new dispatches on where to go
• 29:12
  like now we know
• 29:13
  about when the first bomb drops over in the Middle East like
• 29:16
  seconds after it goes
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: off like there's this level of immediacy
• 29:21
  That I think plays into The way we view things as fractured
• 29:28
  Which then leads us to
• 29:30
  Like oh we need to What I wanted to ask you Is What were What
• 29:38
  were people Preaching
• 29:39
  about Back in like the 1860s Like when it came time Like you
• 29:45
  know Were they Were
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: they
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: My question is,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: and this is a leading question,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: because were they changing the message in order to fit the times?
• 30:00
  Or what was filling the pulpits during that era when things
• 30:03
  felt so fractured and divided?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, have you seen that...
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's like a,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's like a meme or something where it says,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: man was not meant to monitor this many situations.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just, oh man, I felt that when I read it because we're not.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, we're not.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're always monitoring a situation,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: where it's like the,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: the news has this like really dramatic music.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: we're on,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: and then somebody's got papers where they're like,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: we're monitoring something in the blah,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: blah,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: blah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: the irony of the Civil War era,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: the antebellum era,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: and many historians have said this,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: it's not very disputed,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: is that actually the founding generation was in many degrees,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be careful the way I say this,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: The founding generation was...
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot of unbelief.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Deism was rampant.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Unitarianism was ascendant.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just look at Benjamin Franklin.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Look at Thomas Jefferson.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Then look at people like James Madison.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just kind of... John Adams, he was a Unitarian.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean...
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Benjamin Franklin, he made no bones about it.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: He knew the Bible probably better than you and I, Brad.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: He had Puritans.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, he's from your state.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: And yet he was like, yeah, sure, I'm a deist.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't believe in the Trinity.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: He made no bones about it.
• 31:51
  I mean,
• 31:53
  the French infidelity was,
• 31:56
  as what they referred to it,
• 31:57
  you know,
• 31:58
  was very in vogue.
• 32:00
  The irony is that by the 1850s,
• 32:03
  America was as evangelical as it had ever been.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of that is because of the Second Great Awakening.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: we can get into the Second Great Awakening not being like the first,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: and there were many ills,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: some of which came from my home state of Kentucky.
• 32:30
  But I bring that point up because there was a lot of expository
• 32:34
  preaching going on
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And even though there were a lot of kooky ideas,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: as there has always been in American religion You know,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading right now,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading a little bit on Charles Finney,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: who,
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: reformed people love to hate
• 32:56
  and um you know Charles Finney he was really expositional or
• 33:00
  could be you know he
• 33:01
  didn't there was no like sermon series that Finney was
• 33:04
  preaching like hey we're
• 33:05
  gonna come we're gonna talk about success for three weeks you
• 33:09
  know things like that
• 33:10
  you know he expositional preaching generally speaking the vast
• 33:15
  majority of
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: evangelical preachers and especially Baptist preachers were preaching
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: expositionally um
• 33:24
  so that is something that was that is striking when you read
• 33:29
  old sermons from 200
• 33:33
  170 years ago is you know people came to the pulpit to hear
• 33:39
  authority now it's we
• 33:42
  got to be careful newspapers were really they were really
• 33:47
  fashionable then and they
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: weren't like
• 33:51
  Let's not imagine Tom Brokaw coming down and Walter Conkright
• 33:57
  Some of these
• 33:57
  newspapers were politicized They were political party
• 34:02
  newspapers I guess my point
• 34:05
  being that Americans were no less opinionated 200 years ago
• 34:08
  than they are now
• 34:11
  I don't think they had the medium to speak and instead of us
• 34:15
  instead of listening
• 34:16
  to you know 10 million voices like we are today they probably
• 34:22
  just had just a few
• 34:23
  yeah but my point my larger point there is that in a time where
• 34:30
  they had a lot of
• 34:31
  voices they had politicians they had mayors they had governors
• 34:36
  they had newspapers
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 34:38
  The pulpit was undeniably the highest authority of information
• 34:47
  that they had when
• 34:48
  they came around on Sunday and they gathered on the Lord's Day
• 34:52
  or they gathered on
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: the Tuesday night prayer meeting.
• 34:58
  The pulpit was the highest authority and was unquestionably
• 35:03
  where they went to for
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: their ultimate source of truth.
• 35:09
  and that's one of the reasons I love reading and I can say this
• 35:15
  because just you
• 35:16
  know 10 minutes ago I was talking about how it was a divided
• 35:19
  nation and it was but
• 35:21
  one of the reasons I love reading old letters and
• 35:24
  correspondence from the Civil War
• 35:26
  era is these people were so biblically literate they would just
• 35:32
  use analogies all
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: the time
• 35:36
  just like that like they wouldn't even talk they weren't
• 35:39
  talking about the Bible
• 35:40
  they'd be talking about something else but they would
• 35:42
  illustrate their point using
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: the Bible I was actually reading a letter from a Civil War soldier from
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Massachusetts fighting in Virginia in 1862 and he's talking about
• 35:57
  He's talking about an opposing general on the other side that
• 36:01
  he doesn't like.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, he uses the phrase, he's talking to his mom.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, and his heart was as hard as Pharaoh's.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: He just said that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it just reminded me that, no, no, actually, let me go back.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: He was describing the ground.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: He said the ground is as hard as Pharaoh's.
• 36:29
  the ground was as hard as Pharaoh's heart that was was and I'm
• 36:32
  like people don't
• 36:35
  talk like that today and I I think that if we could learn one
• 36:42
  thing from that
• 36:42
  generation it's that the word of God was written on their heart
• 36:49
  which is why the
• 36:52
  Civil War time was such a great irony is because you you did
• 36:56
  have brothers and
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: sisters in the Lord
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Pro-slavery,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: anti-slavery,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: who were both children of God,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: who fought against one another,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: who are now in the arms of the Savior,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: and that in itself is tragic.
• 37:17
  But as a whole,
• 37:18
  and I think Abraham Lincoln said this best in his second
• 37:23
  inaugural,
• 37:26
  on Sundays they would fight you know but they were still
• 37:29
  praying to the same God
• 37:32
  and they believed in the same Jesus and I think that is
• 37:36
  probably one of the most
• 37:40
  admirable traits of the antebellum generation is how
• 37:44
  evangelical they were they
• 37:46
  were raised on the second great awakening they were
• 37:48
  revivalistic people they loved
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: the word of God and I'm speaking in generalities here um
• 37:55
  But they knew God's word and they knew it very well And no one
• 38:00
  can read the
• 38:00
  literature out of the antebellum generation And not be
• 38:03
  convinced that these people
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: were literate in the Bible I mean,
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: even Abraham Lincoln,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just brought him up I mean,
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: that guy lived in a log cabin,
• 38:13
  for goodness sake He wasn't learned All he had were the few
• 38:18
  books that his
• 38:19
  stepmother brought from Kentucky He had Pilgrim's Progress and
• 38:22
  he had a Bible That
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: was it
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: especially out on the frontier,
• 38:28
  a lot of people didn't have anything else to read but the Bible
• 38:30
  So I'm starting to
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: preach now in my history voice,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: but that's something I think we can take away from our forebearers
• 38:41
  I was preaching to you earlier before we hit record so you've
• 38:49
  obviously I love
• 38:50
  talking to you about this stuff because you're so well versed
• 38:53
  in it so it's easy
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: but you've written
• 38:57
  you know about famous historical families like you have a book
• 39:01
  about the Beechers I
• 39:02
  think you did your PhD on Furman I believe Richard Furman I
• 39:07
  don't know how you
• 39:07
  remembered that but yes because you're my best friend Dobby no
• 39:17
  what what does their
• 39:20
  legacy and like this is all kind of circling around the same
• 39:24
  thing what does that
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: have to preach to us right now
• 39:27
  Because obviously there's a lot there probably but like what
• 39:31
  does their historical
• 39:34
  moment have to tell us like we're in 2026 that feels like
• 39:38
  ancient I feel like I was
• 39:39
  telling you like 2021 feels like ancient history to me so let
• 39:42
  alone 1860s what does
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: that have to tell us and why should we be more responsible for
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: With knowing and understanding our own history,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: especially as Baptists,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: but like just as people,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: as Americans,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: as Christians.
• 40:05
  Are you asking what is the most significant lesson we can draw
• 40:12
  from that era?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're asking?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think... Let me look at it in terms of Baptists.
• 40:37
  Baptists at that time were just kind of emerging out of the
• 40:43
  cellar of the social...
• 40:49
  Strata of America um Baptists were not a very learned people uh
• 40:57
  I think only one
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Baptist signed the Declaration of Independence I think um um
• 41:09
  So Baptists were not,
• 41:11
  you know,
• 41:11
  there was no Baptist state church here in South Carolina.
• 41:14
  It was obviously an Episcopal,
• 41:15
  you know,
• 41:17
  you're from a state that didn't have a state church.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, Massachusetts, Connecticut had Congregationalists.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: But Baptists were always known as,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: they were very pro-liberty,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: pro-religious liberty,
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: separation church and state.
• 41:38
  but we didn't really start to develop we really didn't start
• 41:44
  developing our own
• 41:46
  schools and colleges aside from Brown University really until
• 41:53
  the 1820s by then
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: America was you know almost 50 years old 1810s maybe so
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think theological education in the Baptist church was,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: by necessity,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: was largely done in the local church.
• 42:12
  And they wanted to get educated because,
• 42:14
  of course,
• 42:15
  there was a lot—they wanted to rise up.
• 42:20
  There was always the temptation of Baptists to somehow think
• 42:23
  that there was a
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: prestige,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: being educated,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: but I think Baptists have always—
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: wanted to be to educate themselves in God's word.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the local church was where everything happened for Baptists.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of the antebellum period,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think Baptists were they were they were divided on missions.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: For the first time,
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Baptists had essentially come together over missions,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: and it was over missions that they split.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's probably one of the tragedies, you know?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a part of the Southern Baptist Convention,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: which has done a great good in the world through missions.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: But we were birthed in 1845 over slavery, and we've acknowledged that.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the larger lesson,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 43:28
  if you could draw something out from the Civil War era would be
• 43:33
  that Baptists,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: they had to learn how to get along,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: because I could try to name them out for you,
• 43:43
  but there were at least 10 to 15 different kinds of Baptist
• 43:49
  denominations by the
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: end of the Civil War.
• 43:53
  There were regular Baptists There were separate Baptists There
• 43:57
  were general
• 43:59
  Baptists There were landmark Baptists There were two seed in
• 44:05
  the spirit Baptists
• 44:06
  It's like a predestinarian Baptist There were African Baptists
• 44:10
  There were primitive
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Baptists There were missionary Baptists There were Calvinistic Baptists
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: Free will Baptists.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's just a lot of Baptists.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't even got into the independent Baptists.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's just there's all Southern Baptists, Northern Baptists.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: it's just by the time of the Civil War,
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: you had a ton of different sects,
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: S-E-C-T-S.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Bible was something that kept them together.
• 44:50
  You had things like the Bible Society,
• 44:52
  Tract Society,
• 44:53
  evangelism,
• 44:54
  preaching.
• 44:55
  I think that even when politics drew Baptists apart and there
• 45:02
  was such division,
• 45:03
  I think that a commitment to the preaching of God's Word and an
• 45:10
  emphasis upon
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: particularly the atoning work of Christ
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: was something you could pretty much find anywhere at any Baptist church.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if it didn't have that,
• 45:20
  if it didn't have a believer's church with an emphasis on
• 45:23
  believer's baptism,
• 45:25
  and if there wasn't a preaching of the work of Christ and there
• 45:29
  wasn't an authority
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: to God's word,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: they were probably not united at all.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that the idea of conversion—
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Coupled with the revivalistic emphasis upon,
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:47
  making a decision for Christ that kind of swept through America
• 45:50
  during the Second
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Great Awakening,
• 45:54
  Baptists took that and Baptists of all people were ones to try
• 46:00
  to maintain the
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: purity of the church by
• 46:04
  exercising church discipline on members making sure that the
• 46:08
  church was a church
• 46:10
  for believers they were intensely evangelistic pretty much in
• 46:17
  any denomination you
• 46:18
  found except for anti-mission Baptists and yeah I think that's
• 46:26
  probably something
• 46:27
  you could learn from the antebellum period is Baptists were
• 46:30
  just as divided as they
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: ever were
• 46:33
  But there were certain things that bound them together And
• 46:38
  hopefully those things
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: still bind Baptists together today I mean,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: you and I,
• 46:41
  you're an independent Baptist I'm a Southern Baptist Here we
• 46:44
  are talking about the
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: work of Christ and about God's Word And I don't think that's too,
• 46:51
  that's not that ironic Considering that's really what has
• 46:56
  brought Baptists together
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: over 200 years
• 46:59
  Yeah that's right and hopefully Lord willing it stays that way
• 47:03
  I think there's also
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: this sense in which
• 47:09
  I'm trying to think of where to go with this because there's a
• 47:11
  lot of thoughts in my head.
• 47:13
  But I'm thinking about like Jeremiah 32 where Jeremiah was told
• 47:20
  to buy a piece of
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: land that was about to be invaded.
• 47:23
  I'm thinking about 1 Kings 12 when the nation of the kingdom of
• 47:31
  Israel was suddenly
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: divided into...
• 47:34
  two separate kingdoms much like what we're talking about I mean
• 47:38
  and I'm not trying
• 47:39
  to say the Bible talks about American history but there's a lot
• 47:42
  of parallels in
• 47:42
  some regards and I think about what God's like the through line
• 47:48
  for me as like I
• 47:49
  study history and you study history you're more well versed in
• 47:53
  it but as you've
• 47:54
  kind of hinted at we're kind of circling around this theme I
• 47:57
  think which is
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: History is a lot murkier than I think we would ever hope to think.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's murkier,
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: it's messier,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: it's filled with less black and white,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: this guy good,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: this guy bad sort of scenarios.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: History isn't a binary.
• 48:17
  There's a lot of ways in which when we try to force that
• 48:22
  binary,
• 48:22
  we mess a lot of things up.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the through line
• 48:28
  As you've kind of hinted at is that even in the midst of the
• 48:30
  upheaval of the Civil
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: War the gates of hell
• 48:35
  Never were able to prevail against God's people,
• 48:38
  whether they be north or south.
• 48:40
  And I think about,
• 48:42
  I've preached this and I've used this and I keep going back to
• 48:45
  that line.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: That line in 1 Kings chapter 12,
• 48:48
  when the nation of Israel is fractured and they're being
• 48:52
  divided and there's a
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: quite literal civil war breaking out amongst the tribes of Israel.
• 48:58
  And then the prophet comes into the room after there's just
• 49:00
  been this coup.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: And what does he say to the people?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: he says to all of those generals and whoever were there in that room,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: this thing is from me,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: meaning this thing that has occurred is from the Lord.
• 49:16
  I keep thinking about that phrase just because that's another
• 49:20
  one of those moments
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: where,
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: what appears on the surface isn't always what is actually going on.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's something deeper at work.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it looks like.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: to believe and trust and to put your confidence in the providence of God,
• 49:35
  that you are putting your trust and your hope and your
• 49:37
  confidence in something that
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't always appear like it should.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: It appears and sometimes it's opposite.
• 49:45
  Yeah,
• 49:46
  we can,
• 49:46
  let's invoke the theology of the cross because that's what is
• 49:50
  exactly happening.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're recording this a couple days before Good Friday and
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: What was that?
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Good Friday was the epitome of this thing is from me,
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: where what looks like on the surface,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: death and defeat,
• 50:09
  the crumbling of whatever hope that you had put in a Messiah
• 50:13
  that had come from
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: it appeared that that was,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: what a false hope that was.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: Look at this guy.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: We thought it was him.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think this has always been the through line.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I've gathered from history is
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: is that faith has always been difficult.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: As I've said to people,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: there's never been an opportune moment to put your trust in Jesus,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: to trust in the word of the gospel.
• 50:47
  There's never been an opportune time where that has been quote
• 50:50
  unquote easy.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can get into, I don't want to invoke that piece that went
• 50:56
  really viral a couple years ago viral it circulated you know
• 50:59
  certain corners of
• 51:00
  Christendom you know like what was that like there's a neutral
• 51:04
  time and whatever I
• 51:05
  don't want to invoke that necessarily talking about uh yeah
• 51:11
  yeah negative world
• 51:12
  yeah there you go um I don't really think that the thing that
• 51:16
  always struck me with
• 51:17
  that is that like you can maybe make that in certain ways in
• 51:22
  certain contexts that
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: was a very
• 51:25
  niche American view of what that meant to be a Christian but I
• 51:29
  would say if you
• 51:30
  take world history there's never been an opportune moment like
• 51:34
  starting from
• 51:35
  Abraham onwards it's never faith has never just been this easy
• 51:39
  thing that God has
• 51:40
  called us to it's always been difficult and I think we will
• 51:46
  always find that to be
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: true which is also to say and here I am rambling or preaching but
• 51:54
  If we are beholden to this idea that if we do enough or we make
• 52:00
  enough progress
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: that faith will be this widespread,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: acclaimed,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: easy thing,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're clinging to a false hope.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's never going to occur this side of eternity.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Faith is always going to be difficult.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's always going to pose challenges to
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: to those we hold dear to the church.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, I think that's one of the things that I think history tells us.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: What you're saying is that the gate will always be narrow.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: It'll always be narrow.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: The church will never have mainstream acclaim.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: And once we think that it does, we're probably in the wrong church.
• 52:48
  I agree with you that faith will always be as faith will always
• 53:01
  have its challenges
• 53:02
  regardless of what generation you're living in it will not ever
• 53:07
  be easier in one
• 53:10
  you know Satan will always be roaring and will always be he'll
• 53:16
  always be prowling
• 53:19
  Sin will always be the passions of the flesh will always need
• 53:22
  to be crucified I do
• 53:27
  think history I do think history shows that culturally speaking
• 53:38
  there may not have
• 53:39
  been at times a level of ostracization or a marginalization is
• 53:46
  probably the better
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: term
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: There have been clearer moments throughout history when evangelical,
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm not saying that evangelical is the only Christians,
• 53:57
  but there have been a time when to emphasize the rebirth and to
• 54:05
  emphasize that the
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: Word of God must have lordship and authority over your entire life.
• 54:16
  There have been times in American history when those ideas were
• 54:20
  probably not
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: marginalized in the degree that it was in other times.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: But that's,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: to your point,
• 54:28
  that does not mean that the gate has somehow widened in one
• 54:34
  season or another.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't...
• 54:40
  I don't know I think God is you can't the founding generation
• 54:43
  and the antebellum
• 54:44
  generation are completely different they're just to have no one
• 54:51
  we had we have had
• 54:52
  presidents who have written on denying the Trinity who have
• 54:56
  just flat out denied
• 54:58
  the resurrection flat out I mean the man who made the
• 55:03
  Declaration of Independence
• 55:05
  crafted the Declaration of Independence thought that a
• 55:07
  three-in-one God was hokum
• 55:11
  And that has profound bearing upon the American people and how
• 55:16
  religion is received
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yet in the providence of God,
• 55:22
  no one was a more fierce defender of religious liberty than
• 55:25
  Jefferson But Jefferson
• 55:30
  didn't want religious liberty so that he could exercise
• 55:33
  evangelical faith He just
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: wanted all the Pharisees to keep their hands out of the government
• 55:39
  um so that's uh that's that's God just working God things um
• 55:45
  but yeah I think
• 55:46
  you're right the gate is always going to be narrow and we
• 55:48
  should never just because
• 55:51
  just because an evangelical faith is more received in the
• 55:56
  public square doesn't
• 55:57
  mean that it is just doesn't mean that the gate gets wider uh
• 56:03
  for the Christian uh
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: and and that the Christian life is any less difficult hmm
• 56:09
  yeah that's that's a really good point obby and I think one of
• 56:13
  the things that I
• 56:13
  would like to maybe speak to or like have you speak to is just
• 56:18
  is just the notion
• 56:19
  that you've worked just kind of hinting at there which is what
• 56:23
  do you say to
• 56:23
  someone and maybe this is going to open like a whole new can of
• 56:26
  worms and so you
• 56:27
  can tell me that we shouldn't open that can of worms um and
• 56:30
  that's fine um
• 56:33
  What would you say to someone then who is beholden to this idea
• 56:37
  that where we are
• 56:38
  now as a nation isn't where we should be and we need to get
• 56:41
  back to where we were
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: as a quote unquote Christian nation because there was obviously a time
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm trying to say this as facetiously as possible,
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: but obviously there was a time when we were that,
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: and so we need to get back to that.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: So how do we think about those terms?
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_00: I would say off the top that those are,
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: I would say,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: supercharged terms that are not easily defined,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: that are a little bit amorphous,
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: which poses their own problems.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what would you say to someone who is beholden to those notions?
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the term Christian nation, wow.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: John Fia,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: who used to teach at Messiah College,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: which is in your state,
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: he's the one who most famously wrote the book,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: Was America a Christian Nation?
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's now in Wisconsin, I believe.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: But obviously, like,
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: But constitutionally, we're not.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's no mention of God in the Constitution.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's often been called a godless constitution.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: The only mention of God is once, I believe.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: It just mentions him in a...
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: In all intents and purposes,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: there's no mention of God in any kind of religiously enforcing faith.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the First Amendment makes that very clear.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: There would be no establishment of a religion in a particular state.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 58:29
  that doesn't mean – and I think some people don't understand
• 58:32
  this – but that
• 58:33
  doesn't mean that there can't be – it is outlawed to have a
• 58:40
  national church.
• 58:42
  But that doesn't mean that the state of Pennsylvania can't have
• 58:44
  its own state
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: church Which is always,
• 58:47
  I think some students today don't understand that The state of
• 58:51
  Massachusetts had a
• 58:53
  state church until 1833 Which is unbelievable to think People
• 58:57
  were still paying
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: taxes to the Congregationalist Church in 1833 So,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: from a Christian nation Did you know,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: you knew this,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: but most of your listeners probably didn't
• 59:11
  That in 1800 In 1800 They call this the revolution of 1800
• 59:19
  Because this is when
• 59:20
  Thomas Jefferson Beat out John Adams To become the third
• 59:25
  president John Adams was
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: elected in 1796 Largely because he was Washington's vice president
• 59:31
  But he was a Federalist He wasn't a real He was a genius Just
• 59:35
  like Jefferson was
• 59:36
  But Jefferson But you know Adams wasn't a real good optics guy
• 59:40
  He was a Yankee You
• 59:41
  know people He got on people's He stepped on people's toes
• 59:45
  Yankee meaning New
• 59:46
  England But anyway Thomas Jefferson beats out Adams in 1800 And
• 59:52
  that means in 1800
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: You had a Unitarian
• 1:00:02
  Campaigning Against a Deist 1796 let's go back further let's go
• 1:00:10
  back to four years
• 1:00:11
  because that's when Adams beat out Jefferson that means 1796
• 1:00:14
  that's that's that's
• 1:00:17
  almost just that's not even 10 years after the Constitution you
• 1:00:22
  had a Unitarian and
• 1:00:25
  Campaigning Against Those Are Our Options Our Options Were
• 1:00:29
  Between Two Men Who Flat
• 1:00:30
  Out Denied The Trinity And The Resurrection Of Jesus That's You
• 1:00:36
  Know Washington Was
• 1:00:39
  Really Reticent About His Faith Washington Did In His Farewell
• 1:00:42
  Address Say That
• 1:00:44
  Political Parties Were Going To Be The End Of America
• 1:00:46
  Essentially Is What He Said
• 1:00:49
  and Washington said,
• 1:00:51
  you're not going to have morals in America unless you have
• 1:00:53
  religion.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: So he got that right.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: He wasn't an evangelical by any means,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: but he seemed to have a sincere faith,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: but he just didn't talk about it a lot.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: My point is,
• 1:01:10
  we got to be careful when we talk about America being a
• 1:01:13
  quote-unquote Christian
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: nation.
• 1:01:15
  I think if you if there is no such thing as Christianity then
• 1:01:18
  you don't have it you
• 1:01:19
  do not have uh anything like the Declaration of Independence or
• 1:01:24
  Constitution that's
• 1:01:25
  why I always choose to say that we're we were founded on
• 1:01:28
  Christian principles uh
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: but we were certainly not by any means a Christian nation um
• 1:01:35
  Because obviously the Enlightenment principles that give birth
• 1:01:39
  to America are all
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: largely founded on Christianity itself But this idea,
• 1:01:47
  this nostalgia that we need to come back and become a nation
• 1:01:51
  that we once were I
• 1:01:57
  don't know any evangelical today who would want to vote for a
• 1:02:00
  president who flat
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: out told you I think the Trinity is bogus
• 1:02:06
  I don't know some people go well you know what at least he's
• 1:02:08
  you know at least he's
• 1:02:09
  better than that other guy you know that's what they do the
• 1:02:11
  what about ism I'm sure
• 1:02:12
  would come out but here's another thing like you go back to the
• 1:02:19
  1950s that's what a
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: lot of people say is the high point of Protestantism in America you're an
• 1:02:25
  African-American the 1950s don't sound so hot depends on what
• 1:02:33
  color your skin is
• 1:02:36
  um and the second great awakening was a was a you know there's
• 1:02:42
  a lot of good things
• 1:02:43
  that happened in the second great awakening and roughly people
• 1:02:46
  date the second
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: great awakening from about 1780 to like 1840 um
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just a lot of,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: they call it the so-called benevolent empire,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: evangelicals of all kinds did a tremendous good.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: There was Sabbath society,
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: there was temperance societies,
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: there was Bible societies,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: there was tract societies,
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: and there was new colleges,
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: there was evangelism,
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: there were mission societies.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Christians did all kinds of great things.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what?
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: At that very same time, America was fracturing over slavery.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 1:03:22
  um so it's just impossible to ever look back at a time when the
• 1:03:27
  the American
• 1:03:28
  experiment if you will was not riddled with challenges and
• 1:03:32
  there was no golden age
• 1:03:34
  there just wasn't um if we were going to pick one you know it
• 1:03:38
  would be you know the
• 1:03:39
  1950s when things were really good in the post-war consensus
• 1:03:43
  and we were we were
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: victorious over over Hitler and
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there have been clearer times.
• 1:03:49
  I don't want to paint it with too broad a brush and just
• 1:03:51
  flatten out history and
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: say it all sucked.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: There was great times in America.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: But we've always been as sinful as we are now.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: We've always needed Jesus as much as we do now.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 1:04:11
  This idea that Christianity was always guiding America in the
• 1:04:18
  Oval Office,
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: and that doesn't work.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't square with history.
• 1:04:27
  I'm writing a book right now on John D.
• 1:04:29
  Rockefeller,
• 1:04:30
  and he was a Baptist.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: He was a Northern Baptist.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: Man, he did a lot of great things.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: He did a ton of great things.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_01: That man gave away more money
• 1:04:41
  than anyone ever in the history of America until maybe Bill and
• 1:04:47
  Melinda Gates.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he did it all in the name of the Lord.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm tempted to go back and go,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: I really wish I would,
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:58
  I could go back to a time when the richest man in America was
• 1:05:02
  an outspoken
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Christian and was doing all these good things.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but also...
• 1:05:07
  When the fundamentalist modernist controversy came around and
• 1:05:10
  this guy named Darwin
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: and his ideas were kind of emerging,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: the Rockefellers were very outspoken in favor of the modernists.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: They did not hold to fundamentalism,
• 1:05:20
  which means they inevitably rejected the idea that the Bible
• 1:05:25
  was God's inspired,
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: inerrant,
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: infallible word.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: So we just,
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: anytime we look back in history and we kick over a rock,
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: we find that the people who are our heroes,
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_01: even though they were titans,
• 1:05:44
  even though George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and John
• 1:05:48
  Adams and Abraham
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Lincoln,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: which by the way,
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Abraham Lincoln,
• 1:05:51
  we don't really think that he believed in the resurrection or
• 1:05:57
  the Trinity.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know that.
• 1:05:59
  but he wasn't he was raised by Baptist but he was most people
• 1:06:03
  believe he was a
• 1:06:03
  deist so my point is all these men were geniuses and I thank
• 1:06:09
  God for them and what
• 1:06:10
  they've done for this country but to look back at them and call
• 1:06:14
  them like model
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: Christians um no that doesn't square um
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think what we should do instead of looking at the past and going,
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I could be like them or I wish we could be where they were.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think we should look back at the past and go,
• 1:06:31
  look what God did in spite of these people and look what God
• 1:06:35
  did through these
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: people.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what we should do.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good answer, Avi.
• 1:06:41
  And that's kind of the thing that we were talking about before
• 1:06:44
  we started recording
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_00: is just this notion of nostalgia that seems to
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_00: Plague us that seems to...
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like this earworm, like you're just kind of hinting at this.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could go back there.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wish that that sentiment, those values, would find their place again.
• 1:07:05
  And we can pray for resurgence,
• 1:07:08
  we can pray for revival,
• 1:07:10
  but I think the problem with...
• 1:07:15
  And nostalgizing the past is we misremember the things that
• 1:07:19
  kind of made it not the
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_00: utopia that we think it was.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_00: which is often like you see this just in pop culture,
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: let alone religious history,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: as big of a Stranger Things fan as I am,
• 1:07:34
  what is Stranger Things other than nostalgizing the 80s into
• 1:07:37
  this very neon colored
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: world?
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:07:42
  Which may or may not be true I don't know I wasn't born in the
• 1:07:45
  80s You were not
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: born in the 80s When were you born?
• 1:07:50
  I was born in 1990 We're two young fools Preaching Jesus In our
• 1:07:58
  30s I'm 40 now Oh
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_01: man I was born in 86 friend You're an old man You're making me feel old
• 1:08:11
  That's what I like to do No but I think there's We nostalgize a
• 1:08:17
  lot I was using
• 1:08:18
  that reference from The people of Israel In Exodus 16 They're
• 1:08:25
  Pining for food Or
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: different food And
• 1:08:31
  They're wishing that they could go back to Egypt And eat the
• 1:08:33
  meat that was given to
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_00: them In Numbers 11,
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_00: which is not a parallel But in Numbers 11,
• 1:08:37
  they do the same sort of thing And the people that complain in
• 1:08:40
  Numbers 11 They
• 1:08:42
  specifically mention the fish and the garlic So something about
• 1:08:46
  Egyptian fish and
• 1:08:47
  garlic Really stuck with these people That had traversed
• 1:08:51
  through the wilderness
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where they're like,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 1:08:54
  I wish I could go back And have garlic-encrusted halibut Or
• 1:08:57
  whatever they were
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: eating in Egypt
• 1:08:59
  I think about that because what is that other than nostalgia
• 1:09:05
  telling us that what
• 1:09:06
  God is doing right now isn't up to snuff it's not sufficient
• 1:09:11
  and it's not God was
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_00: really working back then but I don't know if he's working now
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that sentiment is what leads to a lot of distrust,
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_00: unbelief,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: angst,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: anxiety,
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: all of those things.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: It leads to that because we're like, man, I don't know if God can work.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I would say the church's mission has never been different.
• 1:09:41
  Our commission from Matthew 28 or Acts chapter 1 is to witness
• 1:09:46
  to the work of Christ,
• 1:09:47
  to
• 1:09:48
  Point a finger to his authority as the one who died and rose
• 1:09:51
  again and that mission
• 1:09:54
  has never changed whether we're talking about the 1850s or the
• 1:09:57
  1950s or right now I
• 1:10:00
  think that I think that one thing that we can do for our
• 1:10:04
  congregations is that we
• 1:10:06
  can we don't stop telling them about the great things God has
• 1:10:12
  done yes and I'm not
• 1:10:14
  just talking about biblically I'm just talking about anytime I
• 1:10:16
  mean obviously yeah
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one is spirit inspired and the others are our own history.
• 1:10:24
  But we don't stop telling them about the great things that God
• 1:10:27
  has done because God
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: has done great things.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the Great Awakening was a miracle and you can't deny it.
• 1:10:34
  And you can get into,
• 1:10:38
  you know,
• 1:10:39
  but I think when you tell them about what George Whitefield
• 1:10:43
  did,
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: When you tell them about what happened at the Reformation,
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_01: when you tell them about Charles Spurgeon,
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: when you tell them about these men,
• 1:10:56
  you don't leave them thinking that Charles Spurgeon and George
• 1:11:05
  Whitefield and
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Martin Luther was the hero.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_01: You don't leave them thinking that these men were
• 1:11:13
  Anything more than a sinner who was in need of grace and living
• 1:11:19
  by God's grace.
• 1:11:21
  I think that's how you can kind of inspire your people,
• 1:11:24
  and I can inspire my people.
• 1:11:26
  I don't know if I use church history enough in my sermons,
• 1:11:30
  to be frank,
• 1:11:32
  but I do.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm always...
• 1:11:35
  Weary of them wanting—I'm always making sure that our people
• 1:11:39
  aren't just pining for
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: a time that didn't really exist.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to know the great things God has done,
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: but I want them to glory in God for it,
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_01: not in,
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: not make—do you remember when Jesus was confronting them about the manna?
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: They were talking about, well, Moses gave us manna.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, Moses didn't give you manna.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, God did.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing,
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_01: is we don't want to make Moses's out of Luther,
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Edwards,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whitefield,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Spurgeon,
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_01: what have you.
• 1:12:12
  I think we need to make sure that people glory in God through
• 1:12:16
  the things of the past.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably the key distinction that a lot of people don't do.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so...
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can easily grab that.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking from Luther's involvement in the Reformation,
• 1:12:34
  he has that famous quote from one of his later writings where
• 1:12:38
  he talks about the
• 1:12:39
  fact that he did nothing but drink Wittenberg beer and it was
• 1:12:42
  the word that did all
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: the work,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_00: which is just a very Lutheran way of putting that.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But then on his deathbed,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_00: as has been famously said,
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_00: his last few words were,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: we are daggers,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_00: this is true.
• 1:12:55
  SPEAKER_00: He saw himself as a beggar in need of mercy,
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_00: pining for crumbs of mercy from the table of the Lord,
• 1:13:02
  which if there's ever an image that we can have of these
• 1:13:07
  quote-unquote geniuses of
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: history,
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: political,
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_00: theological,
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: or otherwise,
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_00: it is the fact that we are just beggars of mercy.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that has always been the case.
• 1:13:19
  The greatest individuals that have ever graced this planet have
• 1:13:22
  been beggars of mercy.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And we...
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: We can understand their achievements through that lens,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_00: which I think is kind of the point we're making,
• 1:13:31
  that we can be resolved to appreciate without being beholden to
• 1:13:37
  nostalgize.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think faith understands that
• 1:13:43
  Faith understands that there's a deeper work at play like not
• 1:13:46
  to just preach again
• 1:13:47
  to you because I already did that off the camera but Habakkuk
• 1:13:51
  Habakkuk 1.5 you know
• 1:13:52
  God tells his prophet that there's a work here I'm gonna
• 1:13:56
  actually look it up so I
• 1:13:57
  get the quote right I always try and think that I can quote
• 1:14:01
  scripture but then the
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: quote you know
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_00: In Habakkuk 1, he's crying out, Lord, how long shall I cry for help?
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you won't hear.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why do you make me see iniquity?
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's destruction and violence, he says, are before me.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the emphasis is the fact that this is constant.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is the norm.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's normative for injustice and strife to be everywhere you look.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then it says,
• 1:14:31
  This is the Lord's answer to his prophet Quote Verses verse 5
• 1:14:35
  Look among the
• 1:14:36
  nations And see Wonder and be astounded For I am doing a work
• 1:14:40
  in your days That you
• 1:14:41
  would not believe if told Which If you can That to me is one of
• 1:14:48
  the most essential
• 1:14:48
  verses When it comes to faith As we look at the broad scope of
• 1:14:52
  history In our
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: nation or otherwise Global American God is always doing a work
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Even if we can't see it,
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: even if we can't perceive the outlines of a trace,
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: what God is doing,
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: we can't always trace it or understand it,
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_00: but he is doing it nonetheless.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what it means, I think, to walk by face and not by sight.
• 1:15:18
  And I think history sort of tells us that there's always going
• 1:15:21
  to be events of upheaval.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just because we are living in a moment that feels so momentous.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 1:15:29
  you go back in certain eras of church history and there were
• 1:15:32
  preachers that were so
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_00: sure that,
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: the apocalypse was nigh.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it was coming.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was right around the corner.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And we've never been surer of that than right now.
• 1:15:44
  You know,
• 1:15:44
  with whatever's happening with AI and Epstein and Iran and
• 1:15:48
  whatever.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're so sure that the apocalypse...
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_00: Steve McLaughlin
• 1:16:21
  If I can put a pin on it The same meal that has sustained the
• 1:16:25
  church Throughout its
• 1:16:27
  existence Is the same one that we are called to partake of
• 1:16:31
  right now Christ and him
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_00: crucified Amen And that's why we ought to feel steadied As historians,
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_00: as Christians Because nothing can do in what God is doing And I mean,
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_00: what a great hope that is
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_01: The same meal.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's well-worded, brother.
• 1:16:55
  It's the same meal that our
• 1:16:57
  great-great-great-great-grandparents needed is the one
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: that we need today and the one that Abraham needed.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's good to know that what did Jesus say?
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: What does it say in John?
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_01: That he needed no one to testify to him what was in man.
• 1:17:18
  SPEAKER_01: He knew what was in man.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: That man is still man and God is still God and our need for him remains.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's well said.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can look at history,
• 1:17:39
  we can take a nuanced view of history without flattening
• 1:17:42
  history while still
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: maintaining a consistent anthropology.
• 1:17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's
• 1:17:49
  I think that's might be what we're getting at is history is it
• 1:17:56
  has its ups and
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_01: downs and there worked maybe quote unquote darker times culturally.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't say that the Civil War wasn't an extremely dark time.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've yet to see how dark this moment is.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're in politically speaking, socially speaking, spiritually speaking.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: But anthropologically, we are still rebels of God.
• 1:18:27
  And if we are deceived into thinking that one generation was
• 1:18:35
  born better than this one,
• 1:18:37
  then...
• 1:18:39
  We've misunderstood that humanity's real basic need for grace
• 1:18:47
  That's right Yeah,
• 1:18:48
  I think that's George Washington still had to be covered by the
• 1:18:53
  blood of Jesus
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's right That's,
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know When I go to heaven,
• 1:19:00
  I'll be running for Jesus first I'll be there with Jesus Jesus
• 1:19:05
  will be my reward
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 1:19:08
  SPEAKER_01: one of these days,
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go for Abraham,
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go for Paul,
• 1:19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see him But you know,
• 1:19:13
  Paul and Abraham were covered by the blood of Jesus as well I
• 1:19:18
  think that's
• 1:19:19
  something that we can remember in all of this It's not enough
• 1:19:25
  to just say,
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:19:26
  SPEAKER_01: they weren't perfect people Okay,
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:19:27
  but they were actually depraved people who had to be born again
• 1:19:33
  They were so bad
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_01: They were children of wrath and they had to be made new creations.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that frames even the Apostle Paul in a different way.
• 1:19:45
  I mean,
• 1:19:47
  Paul couldn't have been clearer about the fact that he was the
• 1:19:53
  least.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: He would have none of this hero worship of Paul.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Luther would have no truck for
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Going around people calling him Lutherans, you know.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_01: John Wesley would have hated people calling themselves Wesleyans.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're either Christian or we're not.
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well said, Avi.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: You hinted at it.
• 1:20:20
  SPEAKER_00: What are you working on?
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of projects are you working on?
• 1:20:23
  And where can people follow you if they want to follow things
• 1:20:26
  you have to say?
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Well...
• 1:20:30
  um I do have a blog I don't write on it very much um as much
• 1:20:36
  obbytylertodd.com now
• 1:20:37
  it's just kind of a directory about where of the other places
• 1:20:40
  that I'm that I'm
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_01: writing um
• 1:20:44
  I write on the Gospel Coalition and Desiring God probably about
• 1:20:50
  five or six times a
• 1:20:51
  year I write right now my big projects are books I just
• 1:21:03
  finished up the Beechers I
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_01: have a religious biography a spiritual biography of John D.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Rockefeller the founder of Standard Oil the
• 1:21:13
  once richest man in America coming out probably hopefully
• 1:21:18
  Christmas time New Year's
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_01: with Oxford Press it's the very last
• 1:21:26
  It's the very last installment of their,
• 1:21:30
  what they call the Spiritual Lives series.
• 1:21:33
  It's a series that is taking a look at the Christianity of
• 1:21:42
  people that are not
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_01: typically remembered for their religion.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 1:21:47
  Like Billy Graham would not be in this series Martin Luther
• 1:21:50
  would not be in this
• 1:21:50
  series But Teddy Roosevelt would be in this series Mark Twain
• 1:21:55
  would be in this
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_01: series So I've got John D.
• 1:21:58
  Rockefeller And then I'm currently working on a project I don't
• 1:22:02
  want to say who it
• 1:22:04
  is right now But I am Because we haven't found a publisher yet
• 1:22:10
  But I am co-writing
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_01: it with someone
• 1:22:14
  um and um it's it's a new it's a new it's it's not a it's not a
• 1:22:20
  unfamiliar uh
• 1:22:22
  generation um that I'm writing in that particular era of
• 1:22:27
  history and it's not a
• 1:22:28
  very it's not an unfamiliar person uh but I pitched this idea
• 1:22:32
  to someone and they
• 1:22:33
  were like actually I thought I was I was actually going to
• 1:22:35
  write on on this person
• 1:22:36
  too and uh then they were like what about what if we just
• 1:22:40
  co-write it and I was
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: like sure um
• 1:22:44
  So right now I'm camping out with a particular person who no
• 1:22:52
  one has written a
• 1:22:54
  biography for at least 30 years and it's a person who is very
• 1:23:01
  controversial in
• 1:23:05
  evangelical history and so I think it'll be really good I'm
• 1:23:09
  having to cover a lot
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_01: of topics that I really liked writing about so
• 1:23:14
  I'll probably that'll probably come out in the next month when
• 1:23:16
  we find a publisher
• 1:23:19
  but those are the things I've got going on right now the irons
• 1:23:22
  in the fire
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, Avi.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you, brother.
• 1:23:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be praying for you and your wife and your twins and,
• 1:23:30
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_00: your church as well.
• 1:23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So always good to chat with you.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_00: You always have an open door whenever you want to come on.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you ever have something that you need to get off your chest,
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_00: just come on and we'll talk,
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_00: we'll chat about it.
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I appreciate you, brother.
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Brad, thanks for having me, man.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: This was fun.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've been blessed by this episode of Ministry Minded Podcast.
• 1:23:51
  Make sure you check out the notes for this show and be sure to
• 1:23:55
  get connected with
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obby and Gobble of anything that he publishes.
• 1:23:59
  I know I can say this for certain you're going to be enriched
• 1:24:02
  and blessed by it,
• 1:24:04
  SPEAKER_00: by your reading it,
• 1:24:04
  SPEAKER_00: by your subscribing to it.
• 1:24:06
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• 1:24:08
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• 1:24:10
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• 1:24:11
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• 1:24:14
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• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your encouragement.
• 1:24:17
  and your support thank you for listening and commenting and
• 1:24:22
  I'll see you on the
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_00: next episode blessings