Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / An Insider’s View of the Haredi World with Dr. Yakir Englander
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism at the URJ, and Director of ARZA Orly, great to be with you today again. Orly Erez Likhovski: Great to see you. How are you, Josh? How are things? Josh Weinberg: Well, you know, things are tense as always, and ⁓ you know, I'm excited for this conversation. I think that we have a lot to ⁓ talk about. I know that we're counting down to the elections, and actually we are going to talk about the Haredim in Israel or the ultra orthodox. ⁓ just for our listeners' ⁓ information, we'll use we will refer to them as the Haredim and Yakir, our guest will be able to tell us a little bit more about that term as well. we're very lucky to be joined today by Dr. Yakir Englender, who someone who I consider a friend, a colleague, a teacher, a leader in our community, both in sides of the ocean, as it were. Yakir grew up inside the Haredi community and later left it and has continued to play a really important role in bridging divides across Israeli and Jewish society here, both in Israel and ⁓ and in North America. Yakir is a scholar of Jewish philosophy, gender, sexuality, and ethics, and has taught and written extensively about Jewish thought and identity. He has worked with thousands of Jewish community leaders across North America through the Israeli American Council and spent many years with Kids for Peace, bringing together young people across religious and national divides in Jerusalem. Now, what you may not realize is that Yakir's personal story is fascinating in its own right. But today we want to use his unique perspective to better understand the place of Haredim in Israeli society and what this moment reels reveals about Israel's future. Let's just say a moment before we welcome Yakir and we're so glad that you're with us, just say, Orly, frame this a little bit more about why why now? Why is it critically important to to have this ⁓ to have this conversation? Orly Erez Likhovski: I think the Haredim play an important role in Israeli society always. And I think the place of Haredim in Israeli society has really reached a boiling point, especially after October 7th and especially during the last few weeks when the protests of Haredim all across Israel against to draft the Haredim to the army and against the ⁓ to actually stop ⁓ benefits given that has been given to the Haredim for many years, but ⁓ are being ⁓ sort of stopped because they do not serve in the army and huge massive protests that really sort of caused a complete block ⁓ of you know Israel I just got you know got a message that is running in whatsapp groups saying that tomorrow there's going to be 18 places of protests and people are just not going to leave their home because it has really reached a boiling point and obviously looking forward to the elections you know this is something that is really really on the table on all sides of the political spectrum Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Wow. ⁓ well that's that's fascinating, of course, and ⁓ we'll see what happens. So let's ⁓ get right into it. Welcome, Yakir. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Yakir Englander (he/him): It's a great honor. Thank you so much for inviting me. Josh Weinberg: Well, it's an honor for us as well. And ⁓ Yakir, let's start really from the beginning. Would you be willing to sort of paint a picture of your childhood and the world in which you grew up and and were raised? Yakir Englander (he/him): If we want to start from the beginning, think we need to start, something I really love about the Haredi but I will focus more in a second my story about the Hasidic world, which is one sect ⁓ of three sects we can say inside the Haredi world. I think that my didn't start with myself. One of the beauty about the Haredi world is that ⁓ you live the stories your ancestors. I mean, even if you think about my two names, Yakir and my second name, Yaakov. So Yakir was someone who was killed, Hasidic family member who was murdered in the Holocaust, and I carry him and his story. And also Yaakov is after one of the Hasidic rabbis. Of course, not after Yaakov, our father, ⁓ but after one of the rabbis. And I this is something very... ⁓ powerful about the Hasidic world that you carry in your name, Zelda, the Israeli poet, she wrote, you carry the stories of ⁓ parents and your ancestors. In the Hasidic world is very important because the majority of my theology as a child happened doing two things. One, by listening to stories, many hundreds, of stories. which me who I am. When I have a challenge in the world, what try to do is to pray, and my prayer is actually by asking or ⁓ doing of meditation that allow a story to almost pop up from inside myself or my kishkes, and then I know how to walk the challenge that I have. So my ancestors are huge thing. So this is my story. The second thing I would just say that our theology is happening by... singing by songs, by the melodies. I grew up in a Hasidic city, then it was the only Hasidic city or Haredi city in Israel, Bnei Brak, which is like 20 minutes from Tel Aviv, 2,000 years culturally from Tel Aviv. And I grew up in a Vizhnitz dynasty, which is one of the Hasidic sects. We coming from Hungary, historically. Vizhnitz are cousins Satmar Josh Weinberg: Mr. Coke. Yakir Englander (he/him): that probably other heard about Satmar because of their anti-Zionist opinions or state of mind. So, Vizhnitz is, at least in Israel, it's anti-Zionist, but ⁓ complex, it's very mesubach, because the ⁓ Rebbe, my he is traditionally the president of Agudat Israel the political ⁓ group of ultra-orthodox, of the Haredi. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, that's good. Yakir Englander (he/him): So it's a complex relationship. I grew up in the yeshiva world, I never studied in a regular Israeli high school, or for sure if we speak about L'imudei, L'iba, all these studies that Israel... ⁓ The core curriculum for Israelis are not Haredi, the core curriculum for the Haredi is that the Talmud if you're a man. So I think it's... Josh Weinberg: The c the core curriculum that yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: the core subject. Not according to the law, but that's another story. We'll talk about it later. Yakir Englander (he/him): Exactly, the law again is the law of a state that's something that is very complex, by the way really helped me because when I joined, when I to leave the Haredi world when I was 22 years old ⁓ and was forced to join the military, no one asked me, I didn't want, and I three full years and then many many years in reserve and the military saw my... Josh Weinberg: Ha ha. Yakir Englander (he/him): complex story, so they put me in a very complex unit identifying the dead bodies of the conflict, which made me to meet Israel the suffering. I met Israel, story, ⁓ by the dead of both sides. And I think because of the way or because of the questions that I carry with myself as an ex-Haredi, It helped me to understand how complex the story. And later, after my military service, when I volunteered as the director of an interfaith youth movement in Jerusalem both Palestinians and Israelis, Muslim, Christian and Jews, I ⁓ a perfect candidate because I totally understand the narrative of the Palestinians that do not include the Zionist assumption about what Israel is, because this was more my story. And also because of my military service and my falling in love with Israel, the that you know, and in secular ⁓ Israeli institutes like Bina, like Alma, so later I learned the beautiful stories of the Zionist and can hold this complexity. I think I will summary and I will say that I think my gift in the world is to hold complexities. without need to compromise one on the other. I do action, meaning I make decisions. And many times my decision go against some voices inside me or some of the people that I love a lot. It depends what is my opinion about a specific thing. Orly Erez Likhovski: So I think, Akira, it's a really beautiful way to say it, know, this room for complexities. think really the world needs most of that, especially in a polarized world like we have today. But I want to take you a step back, going back to your decision to leave the Haredi world. And when you spoke of your ancestors, what came to my mind is that, you know, I think most of us here in Israel, maybe outside of Israel too, we had grandparents who most of them were Haredim, right? I my grandparents grew up in a very... observant home they decided to leave the religion, become secular and become Zionists and they ⁓ ⁓ what was then Palestine in the 1920s. And when my maternal grandfather, he wrote a diary, beautiful diary, and he ⁓ really has about his discovery of scientific books, of secular books that he read secretly in the Yeshiva. ⁓ and finally discovering a whole new world outside and it's just amazing to see and I want to ask you what was your process that actually brought you out of this Haredi world? Yakir Englander (he/him): Yeah, thank you so much, Orly, sharing the story. And I think the stories that you share is story of many Israelis, right? And again, I'm not sure we can call to every Shtetl or every community in Europe ⁓ community, because Haredi before the Holocaust was very different than the Haredi post-Holocaust. So I want to be a little bit sensitive. I don't want to have the assumption. that the majority of Israelis with European roots coming from Haredi background. However, it is true that the question of Masorti, of traditional, of being observant is probably the story of the majority of us. there are reasons, by the way, why your grandpa or grand grandparents decided to leave it. There was a price to live as an observant. ⁓ diaspora or exiled Jew in Eastern Europe or Western Europe before the Holocaust and we see the results. So this is just one. I mean, I don't want people to have an assumption like nostalgic assumption that it's like, ⁓ this was a common thing among us. Then the Zionist rebel. And then now we have a challenge. What I want to say is there are really good reasons why the Zionists rebel against what was a traditional shtetl community because it brought them a lot of suffering. So this is one. Now about myself, it's really hard to know what made me to leave the community because the language that I have today as an academic, as an Israeli, it's a very logical language. I try to have claims. When I was a Haredi, I had stories, I had narratives. My world was very Talmudic meaning nothing really makes sense, everything reminds you everything. just different state of mind. I can try to say that two main things deeply bother me. ⁓ I understood how come that all my ancestor stories, the thousands of them, I have zero stories about a woman, even not one woman. I mean, some women were married to rabbis, but they were never the essence, ⁓ the part of the story is the hero. Josh Weinberg: The the the protagonist of the story. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Yeah, and also all the stories about women, if there were any, which I cannot remember one, it was written by men or ⁓ by men. ⁓ the way, same about the Talmud, and it's a huge... It's about all Jewish history, and it's something that I think we need to heal, and this is I'm so proud to live today and teaching in rabbinical school where the majority of the rabbis in America are women, so I would just say that. And I was with my sisters, who are much more brilliant than me, ⁓ more, I mean I'm a joke, compared to them, it bothered me that the only book that I study is the majority of the day, which is the Talmud, they were not allowed to even have access to it. And it didn't make sense for me. Or as one, as a person, like there is a statement, it's unclear if Hasidic women are really Hasidic women, or they are women who are married to Hasid men. meaning because they don't study the theology, they don't get the huge benefit that I get. My father, which I love him a lot, never really sat with him to tell him any story. In Shabbat, they never sang the songs. So I don't know what they are. I mean, today I know because we have deep relationship and friendship. So this was one. The second thing is that at one point when I was in the Yeshiva, it was in Jerusalem. And one evening I went out because was just a day for me. ⁓ I went to buy something in a and I saw the person, the seller, the TV, cannot talk to me and understood that something happened. What happened was that two helicopters with, I think, 72, if I remember, soldiers on the way to Lebanon from the north, from a Kibbutz or in the north, crashed into each other. It was an accident. 1997, which makes sense because I was drafted in 1998. And I remember that he was in shock, everyone in shock. I was in shock because my narrative as a Haredi was that I'm studying and praying in order to protect the hayalim to protect the soldiers So for me, something I did wrong, right? And when I went back to the yeshiva, the majority of my Orly Erez Likhovski: It was in 1997, yeah. Josh Weinberg: N net ninety seven, yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): beautiful colleagues in the yeshiva just didn't care and then I understood that the theology that I believed all my life that the Haredi we tell ourselves for me it crashed that night Thought that the head of the yeshiva is going to gather all of us and going to say tonight We need to do Heshbon Nefesh. We need to do deep where we wrong How come that 70 and two, three, I don't want, mean, every soul a whole human being, whole world, but ⁓ how that we failed? And it didn't happen. And I remember that night coming to my chavruta, a beautiful man who is incredible, incredible, sensitive, Haredi rabbi today, and I told him Ezra, I'm going the military, ⁓ I don't something crashed. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, it's Josh Weinberg: Wow. I but I mean, as say, you know, in Aramaic, you t tartte mashmah, something crashed, you know, like in in the full ⁓ meaning the word. it's such a powerful story. I don't think, you know, all the discussions we've had, I don't think I've ever heard that you know, formative moment for you. take us a little deeper, if you will, and what was the reaction of your family and your community? ⁓ I'm sure you're not the first person who has left the community, but Yakir Englander (he/him): 100%. Josh Weinberg: You know, when you said that to your Hevruta and know, then to your family and and and just give us a little bit more of your bio like how many siblings do you have, you know, ⁓ just Yakir Englander (he/him): And again, I'm not the center. I think it's important understand the Haredi, but I will try to tell the story ⁓ order that we can understand the complexity of being Haredi today. Please. Josh Weinberg: Course but it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I'll just say that because because many of our listeners I think don't necessarily have the opportunity to to to get into you know, to the inner workings of this world. You know, they've all watched Shtisel and Unorthodox and ⁓ I wanna get to that actually at the end, but ⁓ but but but your story is fascinating and so we wanna hear more. Yakir Englander (he/him): For sure, for sure. And please watch shtisel It's an amazing way to understand us. unorthodox. ⁓ there are a few other incredible Israeli movies and non-Israeli movies about the Haredi Disobedience is incredible about lesbian Haredi. There is new movie ⁓ about eye close open. ⁓ Not the one Tom Cruise. The Haredi one. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): which is about the gay Haredi, it's a question. I had a yeshiva, one of my havruta he is gay. I mean, there are many, many questions. I will go back to myself for your question, Josh. I come from the dynasty of Vizhnitz, as I mentioned. I have six siblings. When I left, it was, I mean, today, okay, I will speak about that. We speak about 1998. For me to join the military, Josh Weinberg: Okay. Yakir Englander (he/him): It was a declaration. I mean, they put me a gun in the head. If I joined the military, it means that I betrayed the community. End of the story. And it means that I need to leave. And it means that I do not come back. And it means that I'm losing my family. And it means that I lose all my community. It was no compromise, no ability to end. There was no end. And I really wanted the end. For me, when I decided to join the military, For me, when I decided to join the military, I never sign that I don't want a relationship with the Hasidic world, which was of the gifts that I have from life. ⁓ people ask me, I always say, what a gift that I grew up in the Haredi world. Thanks God who gave me the power to leave because it was so hard. I was dead. My parents, I mean, it's really complicated. My parents told me, we're not going to see you. It was, and again, it didn't happen. I never sign that I don't want a relationship with the Hasidic world, which was of the gifts that I have from life. ⁓ people ask me, I always say, what a gift that I grew up in the Haredi world. Thanks God who gave me the power to leave because it was so hard. I was dead. My parents, I mean, it's really complicated. My parents told me, we're not going to see you. It was, and again, it didn't happen. later we build peace and we work a lot to heal that. So paid a price. When I joined the military, it was one way out. later we build peace and we work a lot to heal that. So paid a price. When I joined the military, it was one way out. And ⁓ you Josh, did I know anyone else who did it before? It's a little bit before the internet. So no, I didn't. I knew that there was one ⁓ woman who from Vizshnitz Her name is Sarah and she committed suicide in the kibbutz. Josh Weinberg: Right. Right. Wow. Yakir Englander (he/him): and the Hasidic community, told us about her to show that even someone who lives, she commits suicide because she wanted to declare that she regrets. Now, it's totally crazy story, it's not her story, her story is much more complicated, it's true that she commits suicide. It is also true that there is a huge, unfortunately, percentages of people who leave the Haredi world and we commit suicide. And I say we, Josh Weinberg: Mm. Yakir Englander (he/him): because I think that each one of us in a way need to commit suicide to leave And I think that people who suffer so much and they have the courage to leave the suffering doesn't leave ⁓ and we see these commit suicide numbers. I can that I dedicated not alone, of course, with many volunteers in Hillel, which is an organization, Israeli organization. to help people who decided to leave the Haredi world. we dedicated many years of volunteers to help in two ways. One, that when we come to the military and we say we left the Haredi world, the military is ready for us. In my time, ⁓ one understood what to the hell you are. Like my officers, said, you know what, okay, so you're a lonely soldier. I said, yes and no, I have parents. So they said, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: enough. Yakir Englander (he/him): Okay, we will send female soldiers to Bnei Brak to speak with your parents. It's like, I said, no, you are not going to do that. So they said, so we are not lonely soldiers. Like no one understood what the implication to go to my family who you need to understand when I left, destroyed. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ my god, ⁓ my god, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and we saw a case of that a a few months ago is it a few months ago where two female soldiers recently were Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, there was a case, right, that came and then they were, yeah, violently attacked or something like that. In B'nai Brak yeah. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: A huge spriot, you know, against yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Oh, yes, right, right, right. But just imagine then, like, the shame that it will bring to my family if, like, female soldiers will come to my family, who anyway, I crush them because the matchmakers after that for my brother and sisters was affected because I'm the, you know, the black sheep. So it means something was wrong in the education, which I think it's the opposite. I think something went very well in their education. But let's leave that. So, yes, so I, the military was not ready. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): I had luck that I made a friend with one of the soldiers, Zionist Orthodox soldier, and he and his family, Yonatan Ben Arush and his family, just adopted me. Like literally adopted me, so I'm saved. Otherwise, I don't want to imagine my life. I can say that later as a second Intifada, the second Palestinian uprising, continued and I had unfortunately many... Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow. ⁓ Yakir Englander (he/him): hard moments in the military, as identifying dead bodies, my parents and me, we start having agreement how I can come back home. Today I can say that we have incredible relationship. And with Hillel, today the majority of the rabbis will say that even if your son or daughter, they live, a lot, efforts in order not to kick them out from ⁓ life. Josh Weinberg: Mm, to to stay in and just and just say what Hilel is for ⁓ yeah, please. Orly Erez Likhovski: Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I want to say something about Hillel because I think we're working with them, but I want to say, Yakir that first of all, you're describing a really unbelievable experience of loneliness huge challenges. And we should mention, probably our audience maybe know that becoming Yakir Englander (he/him): So I can say that these 20 years made huge change. Orly Erez Likhovski: Haredi in Hebrew is hozrim b'tshuvah, so going back and getting the answers. And when you leave the Haredi community, it's called Yotzeh Beshe'elah, you're going out for questions, which is really interesting. I think it's very different from how you describe it in English. Hillel, which you've mentioned, which is really the organization helping the people who left the Haredi community. And there are other organizations like Yotsim L'shenoy. Yakir Englander (he/him): You're out of the game. Orly Erez Likhovski: And they really have brought about significant changes in how Israeli society and especially the different government ministries are treating those people, helping them actually integrate into society. we have been representing ⁓ IRAC has been representing Hillel around the ⁓ on the issue of the kosher phones. Because specifically what's happening with people who are leaving the Haredi community is the kosher phones are marked by specific numbers. So the Haredi community will be able to identify a person if he's a real Haredi or not according to his phone number, which is kosher. But once you want to leave the Haredi community, you have to change your number and that is taking you out of the Haredi closet, even if you don't want it, because that way people know you're not Haredi anymore. So we a petition to the Supreme Court saying people should be allowed to keep their number. Otherwise it violates the right for privacy and autonomy. And represent Hillel in this regard But I think that speaking about that, how much you're integrated into Israeli society or whether you want to be a complete different part, which is really portrayed in the story about the crash of the helicopter, right? Saying, are we a part of Israeli society or we don't care about it at all? I want you to paint us a picture, a little bit, picture of Haredi society in Israel. And I think we are seeing many instances of people pulling apart and really sort of a very close knit community. Josh Weinberg: So yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: that does not have ties with the general public. And obviously this is what the Haredi leaders are trying to do, right? For them politically, it makes sense to keep the people in their own, know, the Haredi in their own educational systems and of course not integrating them in the army and in other ⁓ framework. We've seen a lot of cases during COVID that the Haredi community completely had their own life and didn't go again ⁓ along the restrictions and the protocols of COVID. And we've seen Josh Weinberg: Follow the protocols of the yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: You mentioned the core subject. This is also something we've been dealing with for many years. They don't care what the law says. We are, you know, teaching whatever we want. But on the other side, we're seeing, I think, the interests of the Haredi public itself is not necessarily the same as the interests of their leaders. And they actually want to somewhat open up to Israeli society. And we see more and more people. going to pursue academic studies and going to work outside the Haredi community and maybe wanting for their kids a better future and sending them to public Haredi schools, which is a new stream because they want something else. So if you could paint for us a little bit the picture of the Haredi society today and this difference between the leaders and the public itself. Yakir Englander (he/him): Thank you, Orly. Thank you. I will try to create some ⁓ structure, And all what you said is ⁓ ⁓ and ⁓ and I will try to give it some structure. So I will say like that. They ⁓ three sects inside the Haredi world, so let's just walk into them. Two of them are Ashkenazi, meaning with roots from Europe, mostly from Eastern Europe. So the two are one, the Hasidim, which we know like from Chabad, from Vizhnitz, from Satmar, from Gur in Israel, which is the largest one in Israel, from Belz, which is the second largest in Israel, Vizhnitz I think is the third, and then we have many little Rebelech, like small Rebbe with small community, from Amshenov, from Leelob, et cetera, et cetera. Yes, and each one of them has their way. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. Like like quartz, like Khatzerim as we say. Yakir Englander (he/him): However, there is a lot of integration and understanding of each other and appreciation among the rabbis. This is one. What they are known by, and this is very important, at the end of the day, these communities listening to the Rebbe, there is one leader which everyone will listen to. Like if my father will desire for something, and the Rebbe will say the opposite, my father will go with the Rebbe. End of the story. Now, since there are hundreds of Rebbes, small Rebbes, if, for example, my brother-in-law or my brother, they will not like what the Vizhnitz Rebbe said, so they will find another Rebbe, a small Rebbe, who will say what they want to hear. This is the end of the Rebbe, but this is good politics that we all like. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: That's religious pluralism. Josh Weinberg: It's a pluralism or rebe shopping as we call it, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): And one more thing that I will say, there are a few female leaders who are stronger than their husbands. For example, very famous is the Rebbetzin, the wife of the Rebbe from Belz which is the number two in the largest, that at the end of the day she decides everything about what's the community. It's not her husband. She ⁓ ⁓ is the one. It's ⁓ like Alice in Wonderland, King and the Queen. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Would you say she's like the Sara Netanyahu of the Belz community? Is that the Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Yes, okay. So this is a Hasidim in the very large, large, large statement. Then we have the second sect, which we called Litaim, or in English we will call them Yeshivish, or Mitnagdim, let's leave this term, we don't use it so much. The Litaim, they come historically from Lithuania, and they believe in the democracy of learning Torah, meaning... Anyone who studied the Talmud and become a scholar doesn't matter who is your parents, is your grandparents, what is your yiches, it doesn't matter. If you are a scholar of the Talmud, you become slowly a leader. And they believe, I said the Talmud, so it's connected to men, 100%, thank you so much. the Litayim, historically, they are much more open-minded. Orly Erez Likhovski: Only if you're a man, of course. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): However, in the past 20 years, they fall in love with the structure of the Hasidim of one Rebbe, one leader. And you see that today they also have a few leaders who are giving the decision, what they call Da'at Torah, the decision of knowledge of the Torah, and they follow them. So you see, for example, Reb Chaim Kanievski, you see, example, okay, you have a few, they lost in the past 10 years. Josh Weinberg: Mm. That's terra. Yakir Englander (he/him): a few of their main leaders. So there is some chaos. Exactly. Yes. And you see today how the... Josh Weinberg: who were all like in their late nineties and early one hundreds, you know yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. K Kanyevsky was in the youth group, I think, of the Haredi world, right? Yeah, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): I really try to just create the structure because it's complicated enough. And you see today that whatever the head of the yeshiva or the head of the community will say about the military, they will follow. So they became more like the Hasidim. Now, the third sect the Mizrahi, Jews ⁓ come roots from North Africa, from the Middle East. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): and with the revolution against the Ashkenazi and the influence the political party of Shas, of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef slowly they became also Haredi, exactly with the same enthusiasm as the Ashkenazi. But a new phenomenon. So you will see like a head of Yeshiva Mizrahi, which is clear that he is not European, but he dressed exactly with the same a Haredi yeshivesh or the Lithuanian. Now it's very important because it's a new phenomena and why it's also important? Because unlike the Ashkenazi that the community today doesn't matter if you are Hasidish or Lithuanian. The whole community is Haredi, meaning your cousins are Haredi. Your cousins cousins are Haredi. You don't have anyone who is not Haredi. In the Shas in the Mizrahi-Haredi community, almost has a cousin who is a secular Mizrahi. So the connection between them and Israeli society is much deeper. And therefore, their head of the community needed to give reports not only to what they want, but also to the families of their community members. Now I will just want to add one important group that I didn't mention. In the past 20 years, I will say like that, when I left the Haredi world, if you were on the edge, let's say you were Haredi, you a Vizhnitz, but you were a modern Vizhnitz. We had 10, 20 families like that. Okay, my family come from that. Like my mom came from Belgium and she insisted that we will read some books that she chose. She knew. Like, you know, like Jules Verne. Okay, like a few books that she knew from her past. Today, in the past 20 years, the boundaries of the edge of the Haredi in all three ⁓ became huge. ⁓ Meaning today you have thousands of families who are officially Hasidic, officially Lithuanian, officially Shas, but they will not follow what the Rabbi says. They will not vote most of the time to the Haredi parties in the Knesset. Orly Erez Likhovski: and they're considered modern modern Haredi sort of. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): But they are Haredi, this is the important part. If you ask my brother who is living in Modiin elite, which is by the way a settlement, let's leave this question about the Haredi and the settlements for a second, because they don't know they live as a settlement. But he lives in Modiin elite, in a community called Brachfeld. This is the Chassidish of the Chassidish, you need to understand early in Jewish how Chassidish it is. It means that in his neighborhood only Vizhnitz can live. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): is crazy. Like, his children doesn't know anyone from Gur They don't know anyone from Belz For ⁓ they don't even met a Shas person. This is how much we speak. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. G God forbid, right. Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Not to talk about secular Israelis. Yakir Englander (he/him): man de char shmei as we say in Aramaic, like who is even remember that they exist. This community, he still think that my sisters and my other brothers, who what we call they are in this boundary of yeshivish, of chasedesh, of whatever, he see them haredi Meaning that the modern haredi today is still part of the haredi and they are Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): want to be part of Israel. And this is what makes the change and this is where the hope is coming. Because all what you see on the street, it's not them. Orly Erez Likhovski: So it's not them, live in a very close-knit community. So when we see the people on the protests on the streets chanting, we will die and not enlist to the army, while actually soldiers are in the army and dying, it seems that there is like a huge gap between them and the whole of Israeli society. So you're saying that the modern haredim are still very much haredim, but they also are sort of a bridge to Israeli society. So that's really interesting to maybe explain. Yakir Englander (he/him): YouTube. 100%. Orly Erez Likhovski: What does it mean that they're modern? Does it mean that they send their kids to a public Haredi school, for instance? Does that mean that they're going to the university? Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Exactly. So, yeah, so it's a fascinating thing that October 7th, I mean, I think the COVID and then October 7th make things, it's like an accelerator, you know, something that makes things happen much faster. So what happened is that today, I want to give you a story about my sister. So my sister, lives in Monsey in New York, is a city for mostly Haredi. And husband is in... ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: the accelerator. Yakir Englander (he/him): incredible, incredible person who is doing a lot of chesed, a lot of charity, he's a philanthropist, he's incredible. He in his friend, donate, I don't want to say ⁓ to the IDF after October 7 and to all the mefunim uprooted ⁓ Israelis the south and from the north, like, ⁓ more chesed. However, he never saw himself Zionist, never. He grew up chesedish, you know, he's working. Josh Weinberg: The displaced ⁓ people. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Thanks God he's making wealth. he is modern, but he's Hasedish, whatever, Haredi. But October 7 creates such a change in this ⁓ amount of, as I said, the boundaries became so ⁓ that he became Zionist. He understands they are in shock. First of all, they saw that none of their community members are serving when Israelis literally... are dying in the military. They see the suffering, they see, they hear about the miluim, how much you need to do a reserve for hundreds of days. They see it, they read it, they are everywhere. But they never thought that they need to serve in the military because as I said, it was not part of the dialogue, it was not part of the discourse. So I went to him to visit them for Purim. And in Purim, it's when everyone come to get charity. So you see like... long list of people coming to get charity in his house. of them coming from the neighborhood next to Monsey, which called Monroe, which is where in New York, the Satmar, this is the main neighborhood the Satmar Hasidim, the anti-Zionist. Kiryas Yoel exactly. Now, what he did, he saw that hundreds of them are coming to get charity and he gave nicely. So he asked his assistant, Josh Weinberg: By ki Kiryasi Oil, right the yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): to put a huge Israeli flag and to put the of Israel in loop. All the time Hatikvah all the time Hatikvah, a few Hasidic songs and Hatikvah, a few Hasidic songs and Hatikvah. And what happened? He said to me, I asked him, like, did you lost your mind? And he said, listen, I am done. If they want my money, they need to understand that they are coming to a Haredi Zionist family. End of the story. Orly Erez Likhovski: You Josh Weinberg: Sixa. Wow. Yakir Englander (he/him): Now, I share that because maybe a little bit extreme story, but I think it tells the story of what's happening. Josh Weinberg: No, it's incredible. It's an incredible story. And and just out of curiosity, like what happened with d did did people they they kept coming, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): They all came to get his money, believe me. I was there. I sat there for hours. No one knows. Believe me, they all came to get. this I think is the important part. as said, I love complexity. But at the end of the day, Israel, like every community, needs to make decisions. Josh Weinberg: So so the two two questions that really come out for that in two two different directions, but I wanna stay on the question of the army for a second because it's help help our listeners understand and spell it out a little bit. What what is the actual fear? ⁓ what is the why is the army, you or or you know, drafting and enlisting enlisting in the ⁓ melting pot Israeli society a tremendous threat that people would say, as Orly just mentioned, you know, we'd rather die than than serve. Like what what is that about the mentality? Then the other threat wanna explore a little bit is the difference you the approach of haredim in Israel versus outside of Israel and their approach to work and integration and all that, because I think, you know, that th there seems to be some inconsistencies there ⁓ as well. But but first just help us understand the issue of the army that ⁓ you know that you experienced yourself, but is is such a prevalent tension, you know, source of tension right now in ⁓ in in Israel. Yakir Englander (he/him): So I want to say, and again, now I'm going to be more sensitive, okay, and you, and I will try to bring a few thoughts and feelings, but I want to be really, really, really sensitive toward this question. So even if I sound sometimes harsh, I want to apologize and please, and don't hesitate to, let's have a dialogue, let's have a conversation. And I will say what they say and I will say what I think is in their unconscious as a community. Okay, so I'm a little bit playing here also as a scholar and I'm writing these days a book about it. It's a book that my purpose of the book is to heal this pain. I think that as I mentioned, since we speak about now two, three generations of community members who never... Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): I never served in the military, no one asked them to serve in the military. It's like little kids, they just don't want, why should I? Like, why should I? It's not part of my narrative. Why should I serve in the military? Now, you will tell them, but Yakir, you need to serve in the military because it's a new phenomena. Because it's new reality, right? They will say, hey, just before October 7, for a few years, the military demanded to shrink itself and shrink itself and shrink itself. So we understand that now you have some trauma. We understand that you are afraid, but with all the respect in 10 years, you will not want to shrink again. We don't trust you that it's not just your fear now speaking. Like you are now saying that you need more soldiers, but in five, six years, you will speak differently as you spoke a few years before October 7. I mean, what, the generals before October 7 were not wise? And they demanded to have a smaller unit. So nothing really changed. What changed is that Israeli memory is very short and the Haredi memory is very long. It's like the Middle East. Someone said like, now Iran had revolution or just now they became Muslim. ⁓ spoke with the Iranian person. What is right now? We speak about hundreds of years, irrelevant. The history of modern people starts when you are born and ends when you die, because of the individualism. history or the memory of the Haredi is like my memory, when I was born, when my ancestors were born. So is one. The second thing is that some of the rabbis will say and claim... Orly Erez Likhovski: you Yakir Englander (he/him): that actually what we need is actually less soldiers and more people who study Torah. Because October 7 proved you that with all your military, with everything that you had, you just failed. Like a few stupid people with Toyota and Kalachnikov took the south of Israel. So it's not really the military. What really failed is that we don't behave in the way the Jews Orly Erez Likhovski: you Yakir Englander (he/him): according to the Jewish theology to behave when they decide to live inside the sacred land. And if you don't live according to that, it doesn't matter how many soldiers. So what we need is actually that Orly and her family will start behave like as we think, we believe, or Jews believe according to them, that how we should live. This is a second. But now let's speak, I think, about much more nuanced things. When you come to the military historically, again, historically we speak about Israel doesn't exist for so many years in Haredi mind, they still remember, yeah, I mean, what is Israel? It's eight years, like it's nothing. It's a new phenomenon. was just born yesterday. Ben Gurion to make a melting pot. What is melting pot? Josh Weinberg: Only as a concept, right? Not as a real place. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): Officially we will say, let's bring the people from Diaspora and we will put them in one military and a new phenomenon, the new Jew as Zionists claim, will come, will arrive. But we all know that it's a lie. Let's not tell stories anymore and the Haredim are not stupid. What actually Ben Gurion wanted, which is totally okay, it's fair, he wanted to bring all the Diaspora Jews and to make them to be Zionists. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Yakir Englander (he/him): that look like people in the Moshav and in the kibbutz. And the Haredi don't want to be like the Moshav and the kibbutz. They don't see anything beautifully or unique about that. They want to be like their grandparents and grand-grandparents before the Holocaust. So the question that they ask you is, are you seriously want me in the military? Are you seriously want me in the military? Because if you want me in the military, So why do you ask me to study the core studies of Liba? What's the connection? I don't want to be an Israeli like you. I want to be Haredi. So the question is, do you really want me there? And now I want to give an example. You know that the Israeli military, and I had the gift to study and to work many years next to some of the people who wrote the ethical code of the military. Avi Sagi Moshe Halbertal incredible, incredible people. Noam Zohar and others. Asa Kasher wrote the first one, nahon Orly, and then later these beautiful people did incredible work to adapt it. And then... Orly Erez Likhovski: assa kasher Yakir Englander (he/him): A few years ago, there have been a unit for Charedis that called Netzach Yehuda. It's a gdud. I don't know how to say gdud in English, but it's a unit. It's a battalion. Okay, but we speak about like a hundred something soldiers inside the nachal, by the way, which is interesting because the nachal is very secular in the mind of many of us. Now, Netzach Yehuda, this unit, this brigade, served mostly in the West Bank. Josh Weinberg: It's a a battalion, right? That's ⁓ Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Italian. Yakir Englander (he/him): And again and again and again and again, the military need to deal with their behavior. To Palestinians, to say the least. When the officers come to the soldiers and tell them, why do you behave like that? They say, what do you want? We behave according to our ethics. You wanted us in the military. You wanted us to be Jewish in the military. Orly Erez Likhovski: To say the least. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): I never, you told me that I will be Haredi, so give me to be Haredi. The ethical code of the military is made by secular or let's not secular, but like liberal democratic scholars. I mean I mean liberal, liberal, I apologize. I thought about Asa Kasser, but of course, I mean, the rest are actually modern orthodox. Very liberal, very liberal, my best friends and teachers, my best teachers, my best. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. I I I wouldn't call Moshe Halbertel secular, but you know, but but yeah, w w western western minded Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But p p political scientists and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): But they come with liberal ideas and they say, this is Haredi, but you ask us to serve in the military, give us to behave as we believe Jews should be. Now, it's that made me, because I ⁓ interviews with many of them, to understand that we needed to be mature around this question. Do you want the Haredi in the military? Or do you want them in your military, which is ⁓ democratic, Jewish military? But they don't want to be liberal or democratic. So what does it mean when we want to serve in the military? So this is more thing and I want to ⁓ it after that I want to say one more thing, which is very important, but I can leave it and we can Josh or Orly. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Ca can you can you give us an example? Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ I just wanted to say a word because I think it really goes into the question of how do you integrate Haredim into Israeli society without changing Israeli society. Because what we're seeing is not only for Haredi soldiers to say we don't accept any of your ethical codes because we do whatever the Talmud says. We also see instances of actually pushing female soldiers, right? Because the army now promises Haredi soldiers Yakir Englander (he/him): ⁓ You cannot Orly Erez Likhovski: come and serve and you won't see even once during two years of service a female soldier, which is basically creating a world without women, which does not exist in Haredi communities too, right? So we are bringing them in and that's by the way, the same with universities. We want to get Haredi to study in universities. So we are promising gender segregated programs that will hurt female lecturers. And we're saying we'll do all of this. We'll throw the women under the wheels of the bus. in order for the Haredim to come. Why? Because we need them in the army, because we need them to study academic studies to join the workforce, because Israeli economy cannot sustain itself in the long run if we have a huge Haredi community in which half of the men do not work. Let's do everything and give up on all of our liberal democratic values. And the question is, of course we don't want to do it, right? We want to get them integrated into Israeli society, which is... Josh Weinberg: Economy can't stand, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: liberal and democratic. And I think it really very deep to the question of how do we live together in a country which is Jewish and democratic. And it goes back to the issue of core subjects because yeah, they have to study in the Haredi schools not only math and English, but also civic studies and what democracy is all about. ⁓ you want to be together, we have to have this joint ethical value driven framework. ⁓ And think what I to ask you is, Are there people within the Haredi community who want to actually live together with the Israelis, understanding that they will be able to be Haredim but in a framework of a liberal democracy? Yakir Englander (he/him): Beautiful. So I really love Orly what you said and then your question. What I want to summary what you said my words is actually you want the haredi to join the liberal, democratic, Jewish military and country. And they said, so you us not to be haredi. And with due respect, we are not interested in your project. End of the story. No, wait, wait. They are not interested in the project. The project is to change them. So it's exactly what Ben Gurion did just in the 2026 version. Josh Weinberg: Yet yet. Orly Erez Likhovski: course they're interested in the project because they want to be supported and getting benefits otherwise their way of living cannot be sustained. Yakir Englander (he/him): Okay, so exactly. So this is where I believe, and now we come to Yakir, that this is the moment when we need to make decisions. We can hold complexity, but at end of the day, a country, you need to make decisions. Now, why I think there is a lot of hope? Because, as I said, the boundaries of the Haredi become bigger and bigger. Josh Weinberg: R right, that's the yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): larger and larger. And the people in these boundaries, what they want is to be a friend of you both, Orly and Josh. They want you in their life. They do not want the separation between gender in such a strict way. Again, it will change you Orly, it will change you Josh. If you want someone to have a dialogue with you, you need to be open to change and you will change. However, I think the basic, I will not say liberal, but the basic democratic values they want. How much of the liberal values here, I think if we want to integrate them, the liberal definition of Israel is going to change. Now, I think that there needs to be core that Israelis should not agree to change. For example, questions around gender. I'm feminist. This is my... first identity that I have in my life. And when I see the results my female lectures at the academy, of the wish to integrate Haredi, I'm really worried. When I see how much women were fighting to serve in the most unit in the military, ⁓ I worried. And this is let's speak about et cetera, it's not going to end there. So I think we need to really, really do homework among ourselves to ask what does it mean to integrate the Haredi, because there will be enough Haredi that will want to integrate slowly. But in order to do that, and here I'm going to be harsh, and it's okay to disagree with me, it's really hard for Haredi people who want to send their kids to Haredi Mamlachti, as Orly mentioned. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): to schools where they study general studies, let's call it core studies, state schools, which are still Haredi. And by the way, the values of respect women, not only that they study about body-mind studies, it's many, many different things. Like I have a few of my siblings there and it's unbelievable. It's like, I cannot believe that they study and I didn't get it Probably I would stay maybe Haredi. But the issue is that these Josh Weinberg: There's the state state schools, yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): schools needs to be the only schools in my opinion that are going to get money from the government. End of the story! Because from the moment that you give the majority of the money not to them, it's really easy for the Haredi and I say politicians, to play with the Rabbi. Is the same as the Rabbi study Torah? What do want from him? He needs to help ⁓ family who's suffering from cancer, poverty, from many many things. What knows about Israel is from the politicians. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank Yakir Englander (he/him): They hold power. Yes, that's all. That's what I want to say. So we need to decide to be tough. Josh Weinberg: I just ask you sorry? Yeah, yeah. ⁓ No, but but the power the power question is incredibly important. And a number of years ago, Yahir Lapid gave a speech to a haredi audience in which he said, he said, Look, you need to ⁓ switch your from that of a minority mindset of always, you know, being on the on the the the shulaim, how do you say the ⁓ periphery of society, the fringes of society. Orly Erez Likhovski: fringes fringes Josh Weinberg: ⁓ to the mainstream now. And so I'm wondering, you know, are there internal conversations going on within the Haredi world, both in the you know Hasidic Litvish and and and Safardi you know, Mizrachi world, about what that means now for us to have power and to be responsible for decisions that influence not just our community, but, know, broader speaking, in terms of security issues, in terms of, you know, welfare, health care, education, all of those things and how they're looking to do that. And I then I think we have to, you know, sum up here. But ⁓ yeah, yeah. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): So I would say the answer is yes inside the boundaries which are very wide. don't think that inside Vishnitz I mean I know that inside Vishnitz they are not going to ask these questions. They are not even seeing you, they are not even in the demonstrations, the majority of them. They will go to large majority, like demonstration, like the Gurs ⁓ they now in thousands, but they will be there just because the rabbi said they gave an order, but they don't really care, it's not really... It's not a threat on them. The main threat is money. Now the question is how Israeli society, leave the Haredi politicians, how Israeli society will feel when they are going to close budget to family with 14 kids? Now I don't know how you will feel with that and how much you're going to say, I'm closing money, let's say for the institute, specific institute, but I'm going to give tons of money to the alternative Haredi institutes that want to have dialogue with you. Like for example, the many schools and high schools in Yeshiva of Netzach, which is a network of Haredi, Mamlachti schools, high schools for both gender, by the way, and Yeshiva that led by my beloved friend, Rabbi Menachem Bombach, who is also from Vizhnitz. Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: And also, Bezalel Cohen has Chokhmat Lev, he has... ⁓ Yakir Englander (he/him): and Bezal El, they all doing it together, and also for sure Atida, which is incredible ⁓ for Haredi women who are working inside the military and create huge change inside the Haredi world. So we need to be sensitive to that, but my main question that I want to leave this dialogue to anyone who listens to us. If we're going to invite the Haredi community, to join the dialogue. And I don't speak about the people that you see now in demonstrations. don't want them right now in the military. What you want is to push the boundaries, the large boundaries, first of all, to join you and to say, ⁓ want to be part of the project. And they're there. And they will influence the Vishnitz, the gear, the yeshiva, the poniubish, et cetera. ⁓ just be realistic. I love realism. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Yakir Englander (he/him): But my question to you is, Israel is going to change because the Haredi people who want to have dialogue with you do not hold ⁓ And this is a question, they will disagree to see Josh as a Rabbi. Now, can say in a hundred years they will. Okay, fine, if Josh is okay to start pushing your boundaries from your life. to start thinking as a Haredi of the coming 300 years, I think it will be much more Havruta. But I want to put it here because Israel needs to make a decision that Israel will change. The military will change. They will not come to the military and they will play according to Asa Kasser and my beloved Avi Sagi. They will not play according to these rules. So how much we are okay to change? And I think... Josh Weinberg: I'll I'll tell you afterwards, yeah. Yeah. Yakir Englander (he/him): that one more thing of hope that I want to bring here that there are today thousands, thousands of ex-Haredi like as me, that today we are speaking both languages because we love both communities. And I think that the role of us as ex-Haredi who are in the, who serve in the most elite unit and we are in every place in Israel, our role to speak both languages and to be invited to speak both languages is crucial because we are not, the majority of ex-Haredi are not against Haredi. We are in totally different world, we are not secular, we are nothing, we are a new phenomena that can be interesting to heal this pain. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. you so much. It's really an eye-opener and I think we could speak hours more. I do want to also ⁓ with two ⁓ notes. One that from my experience of dealing with a lot of cases of gender segregation and fighting exclusion of women, I've learned ⁓ and listeners ⁓ should that we have, you said you know the Haredim are going to change Israeli society, but I've learned that like in every society within Haredi society, we have a lot of opinions. And we have a lot of people who share opinions in the sense that yes, we shouldn't have gender segregation. We should have rights women to sit at the front of the bus and not at the back of the bus. And I want to tell you that when I fought gender segregation on buses, had Haredi women call me and tell me, thank God that there are reform Jews in the world. You are fighting our fight. And when filed a civil suit, ⁓ a class suit against a radio station that did not allow Yakir Englander (he/him): For sure, for sure. 100%. Orly Erez Likhovski: ultra-orthodox women to speak on air, the station told us, ⁓ once we put women on air, nobody would listen to the station. And of course, the reality was the complete opposite because people wanted to hear female voices. I see that a lot of times we see that the requirement, the demands of the ultra-orthodox leadership does not reflect actually the Haredi. And a lot of people want something different. And for me, this is hopeful. And another thing for hope is that because the issue of the Haredim has reached a boiling point, Yakir Englander (he/him): 100%. Orly Erez Likhovski: both the army but especially the educational system and the benefits. pretty sure that if the next government is going to be without Haredim we're going to see major changes. And you spoke about stopping to fund the political networks of Haredim I think this may actually happen and this is a huge step to actually strengthen the state system of the haredi sector and could really bring about amazing change. Yakir Englander (he/him): men, the of God, of course. Josh Weinberg: Yakir, thank you so much. And I think we may need a part two to discuss ⁓ whole diaspora haredi communities. And that's a whole other ⁓ sugiya, you know, a whole other discussion into itself. ⁓ but yeah, thank thank you so much. this has been so rich and so important and we we really appreciate it. Orly Erez Likhovski: Rajash, next to you. Yakir Englander (he/him): Thank you. Thank you for your work. Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah, conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. If these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up to date, subscribe on our YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, leave a five star review. Maybe something like, after listening to the Pluralist Podcast, I even more hope that the Haredim can ⁓ you know succeed and integrate into Israeli society, ⁓ or even more confused about this enigma and I can't quite wrap my head around it. ⁓ but I'm grateful to Yakir for shedding light into the story. ⁓ Something that. You don't have to use that verbatim, but you know, you get the point. ⁓ or share a post on social media and send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. And of course, if you'd like to sponsor an episode of the Pluralist Podcast, ⁓ we'd love to help you honor someone or celebrate a birthday or anniversary that way. ⁓ and thank you so much for listening. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye.