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Strategic Decision Making & Blue Card (Permission To Kick A** With A Plan) · B Shifter

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the B Shifter Podcast.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: You got John Vance here today.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: On the podcast, we're going to be talking about the strategic decision-making model and critical thinking.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a workshop that Blue Card does.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We've had particular success with that in Woosta, Massachusetts, with the WoosTa Fire Department.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to talk to Gary Fleischer from that fire department.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's a district chief and also a Blue Card lead instructor.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Also with us today, Eric Phillips, Blue Card lead instructor, captain from the Las Vegas Fire Department, and Chris Stewart, who is our curriculum manager for Blue Card.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: So the three of them will be joining us for a great conversation coming up in just a few minutes.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: I want to remind you that all of our fall dates are out for training.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: As a matter of fact, we will be doing a Blue Card CE event on October 19th and 20th at the Alan V.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Brunacini Command Training Center in Phoenix, Arizona.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: You can get that information in the show notes.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to be a big box workshop.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's a two-day workshop.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can get 16 hours of continuing education for attending.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Shane Ray will be there.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: He does the first day talking about fire protection systems, how they relate to firefighting tactics and strategy, and also the way that we get in trouble by not appropriately knowing how they work and how to supply and control those fire protection systems.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the second day, we'll look at some case studies and do some simulations.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great class.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also a great way to get out to the AVB CTC in Phoenix.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: We want to invite you out there so you can uh experience that, experience people from all over the country getting that education.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: So go to our show notes on that.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Also, a number of train the trainers and other classes throughout the country are at bshifter.com.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Check out those dates.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's head on out and talk to the guys today about strategic decision making and critical thinking.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm coming to you today from Minnesota.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Chris Stewart's in San Francisco, and Gary and Eric are in Utah at Eric's place.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: But we're all kind of on vacation in one form or the other, but we're taking time to be on the B Shifter podcast.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate you guys taking time.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Gary, Gary's on the Chevy Chase adventure across the country right now with his family taking his kids and family uh across the United States on probably arguably one of the hottest summers ever.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So how's that going for you, Gary?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's good.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: We got the family trucksters parked right out here in the in the back parking lot, leaking oil all over uh Eric's driveway.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: But we're doing all right.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: We can all just meet up.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: We just mean it's so good that you guys are here today.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: What we want to talk about is strategic decision making and critical thinking.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a workshop that Chris and Eric do.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: They go around the country, and Gary Fleischer, being from Woosta, has had some experience with that.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's you're doing another workshop coming up.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And we wanted to talk about how that workshop really talks about the why of Blue Card and what it brought to your organization, Gary.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess let's start off with rolling Blue Card out.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: You guys were newer to Blue Card.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's been the last couple of years you guys have started doing Blue Card.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about that rollout and how that worked and maybe some of the uh pitfalls that you can talk about for others that are looking at either rolling it out of their department or overcoming some of the obstacles they have.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I think it's real important.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: We rolled this out that you have to understand the why, the why you're doing it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_04: And just to give a quick background, it's I don't know if this story has ever been kind of publicly told.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_04: I think I might have mentioned it in some of my breakout sessions at the Hazard Zone Conference in 2024.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_04: But the why for us in in Worcester, as many people know, is the amount of line of duty deaths that we had in a short period.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: So we we lost nine guys at four line of duty death fires in a span of less than 20 years.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, the last one being in 2019.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: And with that, every single time we invited NIOSH out to do the NIOSH line of duty death reports.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_04: And as you all know from reading NIOSH reports, they're getting longer and longer and more detailed, which is awesome.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: Uh everybody needs to read them, but we all know towards the end of that we have the recommendations they make.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_04: And the why for us to to writing this grant is we started to compare our NIOSH reports from 1999, 2011, 2018, 2019.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: And what we started to see was by the time you get to the 2019 uh line of duty death report, you know, there was a number of recommendations that were repeated four times, and in some like three out of four times.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, that's kind of the basis that I took when I wrote a FEMA AFG grant to be able to bring the blue card into Worcester, so I knew the why.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_04: And and then uh, you know, the chief put together the plan that he had to roll it out.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_04: We put all the chief, we put some chief officers through the train the trainer, and then they decided that we really needed to put all the chiefs through the train and the trainer, and other instructors, younger instructors, some up and coming lieutenants and captains, and uh, they all really got the why.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: Where I'm a little hard on myself, but where I say I didn't do as well with this, I didn't you don't know what you don't know when you start something new, is that I don't think the rank and file got that full picture.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: And and the way I handle it now is whenever we do a CTC in Worcester, I make sure I'm there on uh day one and I do a little why presentation, and uh we'll go over the recommendations and I'll ask the students if you were in that corner office and you were the chief, how would you solve these problems?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I think originally the room would have been silent.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_04: Now a lot of these guys have been living in the in in you know the Worcester command system based on blue card, the blue card system, that now they can answer those questions.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_04: They're like, well, you gotta have you know blue card come in and teach it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's no way a department of our size, 400 people, 400 plus people, are gonna be able to build a complete system like this and solve every single one of those problems.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's just it's just not possible.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: So, what I say about that rollout is a couple of things.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: We mentioned it on podcast in the past.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: The number one guy's got to be on board.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_04: If your top dog's not on board, it's gonna be really difficult because you've got to back this thing with SOP changes and make sure everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and following through with that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, make sure you have good instructors and and really make sure not only they they're teaching the full system, whether you're gonna use every little bit of it or not, you teach the full blue card system.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_04: And really, if you're not using everything that's in there, you're not using the system, but make sure everybody understands the why, why you're doing it.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: And I think uh the last thing I would say about you know, rollout and and the why wasn't there in in 2020 or 21 when we started doing this, and it's a disturbing trend now in the fire service, and I don't know if it's gonna stop, probably not, but it's it's the legal matter, you know, and we look at some of the top three big ones that we've seen.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, we've seen in Illinois, I think it was.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: In Illinois in 2021, a department was sued for the line of duty death of a lieutenant, was it Rodriguez, maybe?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure if I got correct.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um I apologize if I get that name wrong.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: And it was recently settled in court for$31.5 million uh against those communities and their and their fire department.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: And then in Buffalo in 2023, Jason Arno lost his life at a fire, and the family sued not only the city of Buffalo, but I believe like the building owners and maybe contractors, I'm not sure.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_04: But they just settled out of court, I think, last month, for$5.9 million.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and then, of course, in Columbia, South Carolina, where they had somebody from Irmo die and that's that's now in litigation.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: And the the the interesting thing about them is when you see, I gotta read from the list because I can't remember them all, but when you see the charges, when you read them online, it's fighting in an offensive strategy at it with defensive fire conditions.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, this is quote, lack of accountability, mayday is not recognized or answered, no safety officer, no transfill rip pack deployed, unknown location of basement accent, no voice vision or touch.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of these I'm just repeating, failing to failing to follow NFPA standards, inadequate risk management, mishandling of Mayday, and you know, some of these departments were already cited by OSHA if they're in an OSHA state.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, I mean, that list I just read, that's all covered in the eight functions of command.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that is your why.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_04: And this is kind of how I start every CTC now.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I wish I could turn back time and go back there and do that with with our you know originating guys that went through the program.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what when you're rolling this out and and you're gonna have that discussion, you you mentioned something, Gary, about having the chief there.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of us have been part, now that we go on the road and we we teach this and and we're out and about, where we see that there's utter failures if the chief isn't saying that this is what we're going to do, or the command staff isn't on board, or they're just checking a box because they identified somewhere in a strategic plan they have this blind spot, but you really do need the support from the top down.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: How does that look for your con for your organization?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that conversation go with with your chief and and the other command officers?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_04: Well, our chief of the department, Martin Dyer, just recently did a podcast with you guys.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you can link that in the notes.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, he's truly the the leader of this, and and the way that he looks at it is you know, first and foremost, this is something we needed, uh obviously based on the why that we just talked about.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: He doesn't want anybody to realize they have to adopt this after going through a situation like we went through.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like get ahead of it.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Train your guys now, stay out of trouble.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_04: And that might make those departments proving that why to them might be even harder in that case because you don't you don't have a personal connection with your brother firefighter went down.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, in our situation, we used our own issue, you know, our own problems.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, maybe look at departments that had near misses or line of duty deaths in your area that you're close to, maybe departments across the nation that are similar to your deployment and your uh staffing, and and try and get some personal connection where your guys can look at this and say, hey, this these guys are just like us.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_04: But and the other way our chief looks at it too is you know, this is the training program and the system is blue card, but we wrote it directly into our procedures and policies, and it's now the Worcester command system.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that means that you have to follow the SOPs and the policies in the in the procedures.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: So now it's not just like, hey, I didn't like that training, I didn't like the way you do it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: No, we all have to be consistent, we all have to do an identical initial radio report and a follow-up report and 360s, everything is documented in there.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: You can't just choose to do it or not do it.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: And he's 100% behind it.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: Just watch his his podcast and and and you'll understand that that's the kind of support you need from your chief.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I I will tell you, there's other guys out here, uh, not out here, but back home in the Northeast.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: There's other chiefs out there that are really 100% on board with that.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: Chief Kerrigan, Salisbury, Massachusetts, Fire Department.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: And there's there's other chiefs that uh we've worked with in Norfolk County, and now on the Seacoast region, which is Mass New Hampshire and Maine.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, some of these chiefs are really getting on board with this.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I told, you know, like I tell everybody, like all of us as lead instructors, tell all our students, here's my card, here's my email, here's my personal phone number.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_04: Call me if you need anything.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Don't be afraid to ask.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: And and that's that's how you know we try and operate with the chiefs in in New England as well.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: And Chief Dyer is absolutely willing to talk to any of those chiefs as well to help them with the X's and O's.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Chris and Eric with the strategic decision making program that we do in critical thinking, how how does what Gary is talking about, what information is in that program that is helpful for understanding the why?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I you guys are going back out to his department here soon to deliver that again.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like a uh booster shot, is the way I look at it for the blue card program.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: What what is covered there and and what helps us with the why?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Chris, want to start off?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think, at least from my perspective, the interesting part of you know our goal and you know the talking about strategic decision making is it really isn't anything new, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is something that was actually ingrained in the system quite a while ago because the eight functions of command, while they described very, very appropriately and very importantly this linear process of managing the incident command system, there were things within it that didn't necessarily connect to decision making.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we were trying to teach this, you know, well, you know, in the in the late 90s and early 2000s, this incident command system, that the the folks teaching it had to kind of develop this decision-making process that fit inside of it and worked and connected all the pieces, and that's really what we're talking about.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, like all the members that that went through the program with with Gary's department, you know, I I gotta laugh because we say, well, Worcester's been doing this for a couple of years, but I think we were there in 2020, and it's 2026 now, so like time's going fairly quickly.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: But what they what they saw, they saw all the elements of it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: And Gary and his and his instructors taught his members the uh the the elements of it.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really that you don't necessarily get the why.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh people like Eric and I can can show up and kind of help explain it.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what their strength is, is they have a ton of experience on the fire ground.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they're actually connecting that experience to utilizing a standard system and a process and seeing how it actually works, and then putting themselves in the position then and and actually doing it and utilizing it and go, oh, okay, I see what you're talking about.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now it isn't as difficult, or it's not, you know, as Bruno would say, it's not Chinese algebra.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's we can actually execute this.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then we try and give them in the class the ability to of how to exercise it before the incident or in between the incidents or or to teach people how to do it from the beginning.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that really takes virtually very little material to actually be able to do this, and and then allow them that that practice so that when they go and deliver it or have to execute it at the at the real deal, so to speak, they they are be they are they're actually doing it.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the interesting part about this last couple classes we did in Worcester, between day one and day two, they had a fire in Worcester.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that's any any surprise, right?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the the one of the one of the officers that are sitting in the class, he had that, you know, that morning kind of introduced himself, said, Yeah, you know, I've been a new officer for two or three years, I think maybe maybe it was.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Yeah, right now I'm kind of assigned to a firehouse that does not get a lot of fire duty.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I think he said, we just go on fire watch and and and then that night he goes to the firehouse to work in between day one and day two, and they've got they have a working fire in a three-story uh house that is very typical for that area of of Worcester, and with a fire on the exterior extending to the inside, legit serious fire conditions, and we can say that because we got photos of it like the next morning.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that guy who hasn't had that hasn't had the opportunity to exercise the system very often nails it.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he nailed it because he was trained effectively, he nailed it because there's been come some ongoing thought on his part on how to be ready to actually perform.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then the system worked, right?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: The system has to work.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: If the system doesn't work, then nobody's going to use it.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so the next morning we were able to say, okay, tell us about the incident, what happened, why'd you do what you did?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he utilized the system then to be able to explain it kind of matter-of-factly, and and then be able to point to all the things that they did to say this is why it ended up being a good job.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: They knocked the fire down, they made some some good decisions in where the companies went, uh, what they actually did and what they prioritized, and the that it was they had a division boss in place and they had good communication between the division and the people working in that in that area, and just like the whole thing.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next day, or no, that night, we're having dinner with uh some of the command staff from Worcester, and we said, Hey, we hear we had a fire last night.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: How'd it go from your perspective?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the fire chief then proceeds to say, Oh, they did a fantastic job, and this is exactly what it looked like.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And bang, bang, bang, knew who it was, why it, why he, why it was a good job, and and then able to kind of brag on his on his companies, especially his first in-company officer.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, it was an incredibly important opportunity for him to be able to explain, because fire chiefs all the time say, no, our crews had a fire last night and they did a really good job.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: But very uh, I in my experience, the rarity is the fire chief or the ops chief being able to explain, yeah, it was a good job, and this is exactly why.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: These are the things that we have expected, these are the things we trained on, these are the things that they executed, and and then actually put some personal connection to say this officer did a fantastic job, right?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: That is the that is the foundation of leadership, that's and that's the foundation of effective incident command, the ability to be able to do that.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the I I tell Gary, I think he's being hard on himself, I think he's being hard on his organization because of this, because you don't uh always know, but they figured it out because they actually bought in the bosses set the expectation, and they they go to fires and they're demonstrating it, and it's working for them.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's not what Eric and I are saying, or any uh other uh of us folks are saying, it's working because they're using it, and that's been a very cool thing, at least from my perspective.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I just a quick inject there.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_04: You said it was a three-story house, and I don't want anybody to be confused because we have so many of you know what we call northeast three deckers.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_04: This house was 10 years old, and this lieutenant works in a highly residential area of some old construction, but a lot of it has new construction in it, the outskirts of the city.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: And and this was your typical 10-year-old house.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: I believe the roof was truss, I think.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I believe they ended up going defensive because of that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_04: And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was an outside fire that extended to the inside, and like we say a lot, especially with with uh FSRI, which is another program that we are highly involved with now, thanks to Dan Matikowski and some grants that he got.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: We know that an exterior fire has to be put out on the exterior before you can do anything else.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: And and that's something that uh we have to swim upstream with our guys sometimes to like.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, explain like you you can go in and knock that fire down, but if it's still going outside, it's just gonna find another way to get in.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna be above you or below you or next to you.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the things with the Wooster that's that's impressive that we all got to think about when you're rolling this out on that conversation we had earlier is that it's not one and done.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so you go through the online, you go through the three-day cert lab, there's only so much you can talk about in that three-day cert lab.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And what's impressive, what they've done with their department is it's kept going and they've they've revisited certain areas, brought in two-day classes throughout the the six years.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think you guys have been involved with it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And each time that you do that, you break down a small section of it to get a better understanding.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: So some of those areas that maybe you weren't quite sure of how maybe it worked together or wasn't quite uh proficient in them, when you bring in those two-day classes, you leave that with a much better understanding as how does that work into our organization, but how does it work into the eight functions of command and how do I use it on the fire ground?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: So the coolest thing that I think about the two-day strategic decision making class is that we look at that model that we all get just pounded into our head, whether it's online or through the three-day classes, that strategic decision-making model.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: But the question is, how do I, as a first-in company officer, utilize that on the fire ground when I show up, when things are coming at me at a rapid pace?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you break those things down box by box, and we ask, you know, to get us going, the you know, six questions uh to get us all kind of on the same pipe page for our size up.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now that's actually an item that's trainable and repeatable for me as a first and company officer on the fire ground.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's so easy to say at a fire when one doesn't go good, why did you do what you did?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times, I know for myself early on, it was well, because that's what we've always done, or that's what we did on the last fire, and it worked.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this fire is different.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we you hear that saying that every fire is different, but do we really treat it or do we really think about the fire that we're at right now as a as that unique fire that we got to evaluate the critical factors and start to make decisions?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, to me, when you have that two-day class and you sit there for a couple of days focusing on just a strategic decision-making model on how do you implement in the field with some sets and reps and actually train your people, you're giving them a process that's trainable and repeatable.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: I can sit in a classroom and train on it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can take it to the drill ground and do it with without live fire.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Then when I get to the fire, I'm already trained on it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the awesome thing is you can repeat that same process on all the calls that we go on.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: We often just talk about the strategic decision-making model for fires, but that same process applies to hazmat calls, explosions, car accidents.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're getting a lot of EV fires that are unique to us that have a unique set of critical factors.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: You name it, this system applies to it with the few minor changes and critical factors, but it's still trainable and repeatable for those incidents that we go to because they don't know who else to call.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they call the fire department, we're gonna respond.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you're expecting that first and company officer or chief officer to make decisions, but we really don't give them a process to operate in that gray area.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so having this process that's trainable and repeatable, it helps out in those incidents that we call that gray area.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: They don't know who to call, so call the fire department, they'll figure it out.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I love about the class is that we're that we're giving them a process that you can use.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think sustaining it is so important and having a plan to sustain it.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: In the fire service, we have ADHD.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, most of us have that as far as our DNA and personality.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're off to the next thing so often.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Plus, we struggle with turnovers, particularly the fire chief.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're turning over fire chiefs in some organizations every five years.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really easy to get your eye off the ball.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the strategies that you guys have to sustain this in addition to this valuable workshop, but sticking with the entire program and using the system, like Eric says, daily?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_04: So as far as the workshop goes, I mean, I came out to Phoenix a number of years ago shortly after Eric and Chris put this thing together and I took it out there and said, you know what, this this is really what I I need to bring back to the city.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: However, you have to be very patient because you got to get the funding and you got to get the plans and the approval.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: And and and you know, I'm lucky that you know my my chief and my assistant chief of operations has a lot of faith that what I tell them, what my opinions are is is gonna be positive.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's gonna have a positive effect on our people.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: So uh we wrote a grant to put every certified blue card person in our department through the strategic making, through the just street critical thinking strategic decision making workshop.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: And and and the why is one of the big reasons.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: We we wanted to, you know, revisit that and and drive it home.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: And then uh the we are also bringing a Mayday workshop, probably over the winter.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_04: We haven't we haven't scheduled it yet, to really, I think, kind of close the loop on everything.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like kind of the one last thing that we really need to learn a little bit more on, revisit it and then and then drill it down.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: We we did some practical drills a couple years ago, you know, using Blue Card, but I think we really need to drill it down and show our chiefs and our our senior captains how that works.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: So those are the workshops.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_04: But other than that, I you know our strategies on a day-to-day basis is we use you know blue card for any multi-company incident we go on.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: So we get initial radio report on everything, we get follow-up on everything, and we do command transfers, you know, when necessary.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Do it, we do it on every multiple company, and and that's awesome because you can't have that muscle memory without doing that.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: And and then not only that, we have the luxury of having a training facility and having a burn building.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: So anytime we run live burns, it's done completely, you know, in that blue card model.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_04: And anytime we do just multiple company evolutions in that building, whether we're using pepper fog or we're using a smudge pot, we're doing the same thing.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: And this is a great spot for us to put our potentially promotive, promotable guys, you know, captains that are maybe going to be district chief, to have them run that IC number two role and and learn from that angle.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_04: And and you know, not only that, we'll do in the winter time.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: I love doing the the tactical games, like the games that uh Ed Hartin puts out and and JV, if you can link Ed's stuff again to this podcast, we use his stuff all the time.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: I I do, I should say, I use it all the time.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then of course, you know, you can run the simulations on the iPads just like you do in the CTC.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: So those are our those are our main main strategies.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: Anything we do training-wise, we try to make sure there's some portion of it that contains command, the eight functions of command, and and then we use those as CEs for you know our three-year cycle of recertifying as blue card certified instructors.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great point.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a phone call from somebody here in Minnesota the other day saying, I just don't know how we can sustain this, it's too hard with you know having to do blue card training on top of everything else.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And after a few questions, I understood that they really weren't integrating blue card in with everything that they were doing.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're successful with it, you're integrating it just like Gary says, you're going to the training tower, we're gonna do size ups, we're gonna do command transfers.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: You you can literally integrate it into just about everything.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there's some task level training that obviously you you probably can't, but if we're doing anything multi-company-wise, you can integrate blue card into it and turn it into another training opportunity.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I would say, uh, you know, along with that, I'm sorry, along with that is like, you know, you look online and see you see what guys are are showing for videos, like, hey, look at this training we did the other day.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so let's say we're doing writ training.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_04: How come you can't integrate command training into that?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: Instead of starting with all your gear on and putting a transfill bag on a victim, start with that writ team, your on-deck company on the outside, and have somebody call a Mayday and then have the command officer receive that mayday or the division boss at that point instructs that team to go in and use the terminology radio traffic.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a perfect time to do it, and you could do it with almost anything you do.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: You want to do training on stretching a line to the second floor, start from the incident command level.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_04: Command engine three, engine three answering, engine three, take a line off engine one's pump.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: I want you to stretch through the alpha side of the second floor for fire control and primary search.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_04: And now they start that task level training.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: They pull that line off, they charge it, they check their nozzle, they advance it up the stairs, and and then they maybe they call back with priority traffic, maybe they call back with a status change.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: You can absolutely work it into any type of almost any type of practical task level training.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you look even talk about task level training, there's critical factors.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: If you're stretching a line from the from your engine to the second floor, there are a set of critical factors at that task level that we're gonna have to either think about or overcome based on the building and and of variable factors.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: So just using the words critical factors when we're talking about the tasks, start to integrate them thinking, hey, we're always talking about critical factors, whether it's the fire, whether it's the building, whether it's me forcing a door, whether it's me doing stretching a line.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then when they become officers, we're used to talking and starting that that SDM to make better decisions, but it's got to start right there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: So in integrating it really just starts with the person having that conversation.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: What terminology are you using?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at that, why are you choosing this size of a line versus that size of a line?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's all critical factors, but yet we don't really correlate the two when we're doing that training.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's much easier once you kind of switch your mindset a little bit, and how do we wrap everything around maybe that terminology to start, but really that starting to make decisions on the fire ground?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: Believe it or not, everybody that shows up to that fire ground is making a decision.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody, where are you parking the apparatus, what line you pulling, how you forcing it?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Are you gonna transfer command?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Are you not gonna transfer it?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Am I gonna talk on the radio?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are decisions being made all day long on there.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: We just got to give them a process that we're all operating from that same shade of music.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I and I would ask you, you know, do you see things in in your department where if you do task level training and you don't discuss what leads into it or work on what leads into it and what you do after that, you know, do you see people at that point getting maybe confused or forgetting what the next step is?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: Because when we did this tactical training, when we did this task level training, we always stopped once we put water on the fire.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: Well, what do you do next?
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the way that I conduct training now after teaching the strategic decision making class and and going over it, I I conduct my training a lot different now.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Guys can know how to pull a line, whether you wherever you put the loops, however you get it out, you shoulder it, minute, whatever.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: They're really good at that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: What we lack in is that decision making before and after, like you're saying.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So putting water on the fire, I think everyone does a fairly good job at that.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's not the problem.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is once that water is on the fire, where are you going to open up that drywall?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Am I just going to rip this whole you know ceiling down or am I going to check around the openings and where are you going to use it?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are you using your tick?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: All of that is decision making after that fire is put out.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not the process of how am I going to shoulder the hose load?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's the decision making and thinking process of evaluating those critical factors.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now I have to do ABC.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: They know how to pull ceiling.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: But what I found out is we don't really know why we're pulling where we're pulling right now.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that just starts and that progresses to incident command when you when you think about it, those same people then promote up.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: If they have that ingrained, you know, at the firefighter level, that's just what we do.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they're they're they're starting to get trained in that thinking process.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: So the way that I conduct the training now is much more systematic with a process that we can repeat over and over and over, starting with those critical factors, working our way through it, that then changes their actual physical work of pulling the hose line or where they're pulling ceiling at.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_04: I think, yeah, and I think like I'll give a fire service example, right?
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: We do uh writ, let's say we're doing writ training, or even if we're doing search and rescue training and we're removing a victim, right?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_04: So what are we focusing on there?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_04: We're focusing on the guys being fully dressed in their PPE, going in, doing a good quality search.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: Then that they get there, and let's say we're doing some command stuff.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: So what do you do once you find the victim?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, that's priority traffic.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: What are your needs, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: Do you need another company to assist you?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: Do you need another company to come in and finish the search?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_04: You know, a lot of times when we do practical practical uh training for that, we don't include that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that needs to be included included.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: And and to finish off that drill, you drag out this uh dummy and you drop him on the ground, drill's over, right?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_04: Well, no, it's not over.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, somebody has to treat the victim.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: Is it gonna be you?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: Is there gonna be somebody standing outside that door ready?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you don't have the staffing, maybe you don't have the deployment.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: What do you have to do to do you know life saving actions on that victim?
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_04: And to use a non-fire service story, you know, I think maybe we've all heard the story.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know where it came from, but there was a study of law enforcement uh shooting incidents, and they found that it this one particular organization, maybe that police officers were getting shot and they were getting hurt.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_04: And what they found out was when when these guys learned how to shoot in law enforcement, they would do their shooting at the range, and then they would have to stop and pick up all their brass.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_04: And the firearms instructor would yell at them if they didn't stop and pick up all their brass.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_04: You got to keep my range clean.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_04: And they found out afterwards, after doing these studies, that these police officers were you know using a whole magazine, and then instead of just dropping the magazine and swapping it out, these guys were actually picking up their brass during an at live firefight.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not making that up.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so that they had to change their their training there because it has to go all the way through.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's muscle memory, right?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're not practicing that muscle memory, like like you said, Gary, that there's a law enforcement example of uh you know in in de-escalating and de-arming somebody where uh the law enforcement officer actually handed the gun back to the to the bad guy.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and I can my practical uh approach to that is I would go into a fire and I'd see guys penciling.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, why are why aren't you just putting the fire out?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you penciling the fire?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because in in either the training tower or our phase three uh flashover chamber, they were just penciling it because we we told them not to put the fire out.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we got together with our instructors and said, We have to train on putting the fire out, not holding the tower so we don't cool it down so much, so we can't have another good fire.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let when we say it in blue card, let's coach good reps, let's coach the reps just like we're gonna do it in real life.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's kind of interesting to take what you're what you guys are discussing and then and the application, the training and the application part of it, and then turn and look at the performance evaluation.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, how are we actually doing in the in the real world?
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a couple elements here, and and and I'm bringing this up because this was a topic of conversation there in Worcester is yes, there's evaluation of okay, how are we utilizing the system?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, clearly the evidence is is we've got great incident audio that Gary shared with us that we've talked about.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how they they were applying the incident command system to actual incidents, and and what about it was was very good, and then what about it then can can allow Gary and and his folks to say, okay, here are the things we're going to work on next because these are the areas we want to shore up or help other people with.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: All that's fantastic.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I actually think in a in a particular way, the more important metric looking at this is how much faster have you been at getting water on the fire?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're making better decisions about where the line goes, when that when it gets opened, and how quickly that fire goes out.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: How often are you calling for more resources?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: How often is a second alarm being being called for based on the initial conditions and the initial actions of those first alarm companies?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and from from my recollection, is those numbers are have decreased because the effectiveness of the overall action, and that includes the incident command system, is that much better, is measurably better, and that you can now start seeing the impact of, oh no, we are doing a we are doing a good job.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: When we do have some coordination, we do have some effective communication, and everybody understands the IAP and the tactics, like Gary talked about with FSRI, that are connected to the IAP, that no, man, we're getting we're getting water where it needs to go faster.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's allowing us to search more quickly and more effectively.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're dealing with a customer in a better way.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the overall benchmark for you know, anybody who wants to profess that they're a data-driven organization now, right?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: That that that that trendy uh term that we're utilizing.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's actually connect it to the work because now we're talking about all right, how is our system impacting Mrs.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: Smith?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And how fast are we putting her fires out?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: How fast are we getting her her occupancy searched?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then how how effectively are we coordinating that ongoing treatment when we do find victims so that there is some the best opportunity for for survival after the incident?
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I I find it very cool to look at the training side, connecting all that, but then all right, let's look at the performance side because that's where the rubber beats the road.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's really the part that anybody really should probably care about, and how is it impacting there?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you guys have a pretty good example of of how it is positively impacting that.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, to putting water on the fire is number one.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we all know number two is is removing a victim if there is one.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: And and like you said, using the system, taking that program, you know, one of the things that we should be identifying is I see number one is like, you know, is this space survivable and can we search it?
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I I really don't think that that our department has ever looked from the point of view of IC number one saying after a 360, like, hey, there's a bedroom on the second floor that's uh directly above the fire.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_04: You know, let's get a make sure that's one of our priorities to search and and take it a step further.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_04: If you're a department that uh really practices VEIS, like maybe that's that assignment that should be made after the 360.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I next next company, I want you to start search here.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it's that question about uh, you know, a searchable space and a survivable space, and through that front door, the same way the line went in isn't always the best way to uh to make that search.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a lot of people out there that are still like, hey, the best survival rate is is doing it the fastest.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's identify where we're gonna do it and the fastest way to get there.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Actually thinking and making a decision that's pretty awesome.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you look at some of those things that Gary mentioned earlier on the uh ICs or departments or chiefs getting sued, that he mentioned all those critical factors.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at the strategic decision making class or blue card in general, it addresses all of those.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so easy to read a report, they tell you here's the problem, but we really don't have a way to say, how do I improve on the fire ground?
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that the eight functions of command and blue card, when you go through the cert lab, you're you're starting to put those pieces together.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the strategic decision making class really ties all of that together with the why.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I did mention it earlier, but we take each of those boxes in the strategic decision making model and break it down one by one and really relate those back to uh let's just say the NIOS top five to 1561 or 1550, 1700.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so it all ties together.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: So now when you go back and you read those reports, if they're actionable items that I can now take in and have that knowledge, but now my behavior on the fire ground, I have a process to apply all of that.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: To hopefully make a different decision because I have a system that ties it all together.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: So when I look at that, that is the man, that is awesome to be able to give me a system as I see number one with everything going on to have something that's trainable and repeatable that matches best practice.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: One of the conversations we end up having with folks is, you know, the folks who don't really know blue card or don't know why they're doing it, is those those go-getter company officers that just let me go to work.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to go there and go to work.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: But what does that mean?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're trying to do through this program and the other blue card training is giving you the reason why you're doing it.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Think about what you're doing and why you're doing it.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And is it a survivable space?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to hurt or kill you right now?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: What's going to hurt or kill the victim right now?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: And trying to trying to get to those.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I I think how do you guys have that conversation with people who who say, hey, I just want to get there and get to work and not really go through this strategic decision-making model because I don't understand it.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's real difficult to have that conversation because some of those guys, you know, they don't want to hear.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_04: They might they're probably not going to ask you, first off.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_04: And they might not even want to listen to you, but it's real difficult.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like you have to say, you know, look at look at some of these NIOS reports.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_04: Put yourself in that particular officer or firefighter's position when he made or she made some type of decisions that ended up in a line of duty death, whether because of them or because one of their crew members.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, how do you feel?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_04: Would you have made those same decisions?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_04: Would you have, okay, they they did they did X?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_04: Would you do X?
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, then they did Y.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: Would you do Y?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: And then they did Z.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: Would you do Z?
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: Probably.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_04: I probably would have.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, does the chief know where you are?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_04: You know, do we have sufficient resources to come in and back you up if you needed it?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_04: Somebody mentioned earlier, you know, did we call for more resources?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think if you can get them to look at that and honestly look at some like near miss stuff and get them to relate their actions to the same actions of these firefighters that were hurt or killed, is you know, hey, we have to do this differently.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_04: You know, the cliche, right?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_04: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, you know, a lot of the guys that we have in our department are they're legacy guys, fathers, grandfathers, uncles, brothers were on the job.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, even before the time that I came on, man, we had a lot more fires, and we had a lot more personnel too.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: And uh those guys, they they just knew they had that prime recog recognition model because they fought so many fires.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_04: And now with the changes in in you know, the insulation of the building that affects the flow path and the materials that our furnishings are made out of, the time frames changed incredibly.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, we learned from some great firefighters.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: But I what I try and explain to you know everybody, whether they're legacy guys or not, is those awesome guys that you worked with, or that your dad was or brother was, they're not walking through the door, they're gone.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_04: We're having less fires now.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_04: Our department, I would have to say, I don't know the numbers, but I'd say 50% of our department has less than 10 years on the job and maybe more.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_04: And and you have to look at what's around you.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_04: You may think you know everything, you probably don't.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_04: You don't know what you don't know, and those guys that you're responsible for, they haven't been around that long.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, we really got to think about doing things differently.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: I I like to particularly interested in it because I like the when those guys are in class, you know, the people we're that we're talking about, the hard chargers that that have a have a view of how to be successful on the fire ground.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's important.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's important to say thank you.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, that's exactly what I want.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have permission to kick ass.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I want you, everybody in this room has permission to kick ass.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: But we're gonna do it in an organized way and we're gonna do it managed way.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually have an expectation that you think and I I already know you're thinking on the fire ground.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's give you some things that kind of help that process and help you make decisions and know when and how hard you're gonna kick ass when the time comes.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that, man, at least in my, you know, the organization I came from, the the places that we've gone and and and taught and and and interacted with these members, which are highly important members, right?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: They tend to come away with, oh, oh, okay.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I I thought this was meant to throttle my my ability to do things.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: And rather it's it's it's the time and the place of when I should do it, and it's got to be coordinated.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and no none of us get to operate autonomously on the fire ground, including the IC.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't get so let's uh yeah, I I I like those folks in class.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've had great interactions with those folks in class.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned stuff from them, and we do I'm not gonna shy away from those folks at all.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, in fact, that they, if anything, they are they're the the core audience, quite honestly.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think the other thing, too, that we do in class is when you have those those folks, which I think we all are.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think anyone likes the firefighters sitting in the back or the company officers showing up that don't want to be the go-getters and the ones that want to go to work.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: The coolest thing about this is we're gonna put them to work in the best area to address the needs that I have right now under one incident action plan.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: But even more important, when we do it in this in an organized fashion, it really protects us that go inside.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: If, heaven forbid you hear those words Mayday, I want the people on the outside to know where I'm at and what I'm doing, all to help me if something goes wrong.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a give and take, it's not just about one side or the other side.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: We have got to work together because you never know when something's gonna happen.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: And when it does, we've got to be able to save those firefighters inside, knowing their position and function.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna let you be a hard charger.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_02: We want those.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: As Chris said, it's just gonna look a little bit different, and it's gonna be, in my opinion, faster than the way it was to solve the problem.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Just throwing people inside of a building that's not coordinated is not gonna make the fire go out faster.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I think sometimes it has a negative effect and it'll take longer because people are beating to their own drum and we're opening up holes, we don't have hose lines, and everyone's just doing whatever, whatever they want.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so when it's organized, you take those hard chargers, you put them in the correct positions the first time, not the second time or third time, and then you have a better uh result for everybody.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: When I first got into the service before Blue Card in the 90s, early 90s, there was a ton of duplication of effort on the fire ground.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: You you'd be somewhere putting water on the fire, and all of a sudden you'd get hit in the back with a hose stream or another crew would be there.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what are you doing?
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we're we're coming in to put out the fire.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: We got the fire, we got to do some searches behind us or whatever.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: And nothing was coordinated, it was chaos.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: We and we we weren't using companies appropriately.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think not only this class, but the system allows us to use people appropriately where they're needed using the strategic decision-making model.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you guys have anything else on this topic before we wrap?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think uh, John, for you, that story.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know how it was with you guys, or but in the past, like we really had issues because we had so many guys that were really eager.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: Nobody getting hydrates timely.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I I can't tell you how many times I've heard audio or been at fires in the past where the guy in the pipe runs out of water.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_04: And it's funny, it is you know, we kind of ran a order of arrival thing, and you know, the first company, everybody knows who the first company is.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_04: They are right, they get on the radio, they start talking, they start stretching a line.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody knows that, right?
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_04: So they're they're gonna do fire.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_04: Then, you know, the common running assignment was the second company that got there, fed the first company.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_04: The third company that got there was generally a backup line, which is an interesting topic, maybe for another day.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_04: What is a backup line?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_04: Ask 50 guys, and you'll get 25 different answers.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, the fourth due company was probably stretching another one.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: So now you do a hot wash or a critique or a tailboard talk or whatever you want to call it, and you're outside and you say, All right, guys, who was first due?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_04: Hand goes up, right?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_04: Who was second to?
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_04: Nobody, nobody was second.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_04: Who's third due?
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody's hands go up, and it it's like that.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, that's why that doesn't work, guys.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, like you said, getting hit in the back of the head with a with a hose line, like they think they're first in, and you're already there because you came in a different door than they did.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, huge duplication of effort, and then the stuff that gets missed, especially continuous water supply.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_04: So, yep, I think you're you're right on target.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right, before we go, let's do a timeless tactical truth.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunicini and the book Timeless Tactical Truths.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: This one says, managers cause good things to happen, leaders stop bad things from happening.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Managers cause good things to happen, leaders stop bad things from happening.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Takes a lot of leadership to identify where the flaws in the system are and try to fix it.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think, Eric?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's always hard to do the right thing.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it's a popularity contest with leaders and they do things for the wrong reasons.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're a true leader, you got to do the things that a lot of times are unpopular for whatever you're you're talking about.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: But that that's because it's the right thing.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right thing is not always easy to do.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and John and Chris, I mean, when you move from that company officer to that district chief, uh I I always was told, you know, firefighter to officer is the toughest transition.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe it is, but that move from company officer to you know a battalion level, district level chief, did you guys find that was difficult?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_04: Now you're a chief, you're in charge of all these guys, but you still want to be the guy in the firehouse, and and you gotta balance that friendship with that leadership role.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can't be friends with the people that you and when I say friends, I mean like where they're gonna have dirt on you and you've got dirt on them, and you know, that that kind of company level.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: Especially as fire chief, I love the guys.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: I love hanging out with the guys.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love nothing more than our camaraderie trips, but they had to stop.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, it had to stop because because it clouded my perception of what was going on and also my ability to effectively lead and and to to say no.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not there to be their friend, you know.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of a lot of reasons we get into this business is because of the camaraderie.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: We love the camaraderie, but at the end of the day, if you choose to to put on the white shirt and and either, you know, ride the buggy or go into the office, you're you you can't be their friend first and foremost.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be their leader because you want them to go home in the morning, and you don't want to have to pick up the phone and make a phone call or drive to somebody's house with the ultimate bad news.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's that's what drove me, and that drove my decision making, but it is a hard transition.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it was for me because it's lonely.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: It gets to be lonely as the chief.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Chris, what are your thoughts on that?
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the difference between those those effective managers who you know always know what to do, and the the leaders is the why, right?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's the that that conversation we were having earlier, it's it is the why.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is the leaders tend to know and understand the intent of process and what we're what it is we're supposed to do.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: They can execute and communicate and and and and create a path of of why we're gonna do it this way, whether it's in the moment with split-second decisions and communication, or it's bigger organizational things, that they're they're leading that.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: Good dudes tend to be fantastic managers, right?
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they suck at leadership.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so the relationships can can matter there, that step up into the position and all that.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I didn't I didn't I had really good examples of how to actually do it and create that balance where I didn't feel like I struggled with it.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, you gotta ask the people I work with because I'm probably not a reliable source.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like that that that difference in stopping the bad things from happening, in stopping firefighters from being in offensive positions during defensive fire conditions, in managing accountability, doing all those things that we know are directly connected to bad things on the fire ground.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's the leadership is I understand why.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna communicate, train, set expectations to be able to do all that, where just the manager is no, this is this is well, these are the things they said we're supposed to do.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't actually connect to the people or the the mission.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I kind of see that as the the the the the the challenge there or the difference that I think uh Bruno's talking about.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would have with battalion chiefs sometimes is if they ever read an order or a new SOP and all right, this is what the chief wants us to do now.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like we had a conversation about this.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: You sat in an officer's meeting and you said you were good with it, but now you want to be Mr.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: Popularity when you're rolling it out to the troops and you're saying, Oh, I guess this is what and I get I'll own that every day as the chief, but it's like get on board with it at least and look out for these people as a leader.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's the reason we're doing it.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: All right, guys, this is great.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: I the chickens have settled down, it sounds like you guys are is that a is that a working farm?
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what where no, it's not.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we got some chickens, some horses.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we got we got an arena with some cows down the street.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, a little bit of everything here.