Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 6 Rob Avann on governance, trusteeship and building boards that actually work
Transcript
- Adam Stacey: Excellent. Really pleased to have Rob on the Charity Changemakers podcast today. Thanks so much for joining us. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, thanks for having me Adam, great to be with you. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, brilliant. And I always want to give guests the opportunity to introduce themselves, take a minute or so, say who you are, what you do. Yeah, and introduce yourself to our listeners. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, sure. Thanks, Adam. So I'm Robba Van. I'm a charity consultant and interim leader these days. I've been in and around the charity sector for about 20 years, 20 plus years. been a local government commissioner of services. I've been a chief exec twice permanently, once interim. And I've been a trustee for about 16 plus years in the sector, five different charities operating in different spaces, different parts of the sector in between. And I went freelance over 18 months ago, actually, ⁓ and really loving ⁓ the experience ⁓ the side of it at the moment. And I focus most of my work is in leadership, in charity governance, particularly, and also in strategy and strategy development as well. ⁓ I do some mentoring of other leaders. do ⁓ charity governance review, strategy development, lots of other ⁓ bits of training trustees ⁓ and all sorts of related areas. So great to be with you. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, perfect. And loads there for us to unpick and I'm sure lots of different areas that we'll go into in conversation through the podcast. But we like to the podcast off with some quickfire questions, give the listener the opportunity to get to know Rob a little bit better. So before we get into all of that big stuff, ⁓ what does a good weekend or a day off look like for you? Rob Avann (he/him): Well, I've got three kids as you can see on the wall behind me. to be honest, family's number one for me. So a good weekend would be us together doing something together. And usually for us that's being out and about, seeing things, walking, visiting historical attractions. That's a good weekend to me. So no matter the weather, I love being outside and I love us being together as a family. you know, make your memories and see different things. So that would be the ideal perfect weekend for me. Adam Stacey: Rob, what's something small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Rob Avann (he/him): Well, I would say a really good morning coffee is probably right up there that brings me a disproportionate amount of joy. And I'm certainly not quite with it until I've had my caffeine dose. Otherwise, I'd say a Buffalo Bills NFL win brings me a disproportionate amount of joy. I've been a fan for 30 plus years and lived through 17 years without playoffs and being a sort of a laughing stock team. We're in a better period at the moment, but certainly having lived through that experience, seeing us win games brings me a disproportionate. Adam Stacey: That's brilliant. I'm always intrigued as to how people in the UK get into the NFL. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think, know, it's becoming more and more popular. And yeah, you're certainly seeing that. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's great. And what's one thing people always assume about your job that just isn't true? Rob Avann (he/him): Well, I would say, suppose when you say you're a freelance charity consultant, people think you must be minting your own currency and getting ready to retire to the Bahamas or something because people think with day rates and other things that you must be turning it in from that side. And I think people fail to appreciate that you're building a business. are times when ⁓ you're working, there are times when you are not, there are all the other costs. ⁓ things that are associated with being self-employed that people don't appreciate perhaps when you're in direct employment, all those things fall to you, your own IT person, your own HR, all those sorts of things that you have to do. I would say that's probably the number one thing that maybe people don't fully appreciate. I think those are the set to do, but certainly I think that isn't always understood. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, absolutely. That's great. That's really, really helpful. yeah, we've we've heard here Rob's on a fast track to the beach in the Bahamas. So yeah, no, no, no, that's great. And we're really grateful for you coming on the coming on the podcast and ⁓ sharing sharing with us sharing with us today. You shared a little bit about that start. We're always really intrigued as to how people ended up in the charity sector, because it seems very rare that people set out with that intention at the start of their career. So yeah, how did it all start for you? Rob Avann (he/him): No, unfortunately not. Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? When you, you know, my, ⁓ you know, my oldest is 14 at the moment and trying to work out what he wants to do, you know, in the future in this sense of, you know, you have this route and you're going to follow it and that's what you're going to end up doing in the future. And of course, for most of us, that isn't the reality. ⁓ You know, you, sort of find your way, don't you, into other things. So I think, you know, growing up, I always, I wanted to be an archaeologist. I'm massively into history. That was sort of my... intention. actually went to university to study psychology and criminology and that led into the first eight, nine years of my career. worked in local government. I ran community safety partnerships, are fundamentally about crime and disorder reduction. I was serving on domestic homicide reviews. was commissioning services for domestic and sexual violence, for high-end and social behaviour. I was dealing with all the issues around the night-time economy and other things that were going on. I absolutely loved that. that journey and that experience of working with partners. a disproportionate amount of my time in police stations, but in the best possible way. And ⁓ really ⁓ that of the career. But through that, ⁓ through services, obviously brought me into contact with the charity sector because I was commissioning from the sector. And it around about that time I took on my first trustee role with a small charity. And so, and Within the local authority, because of my experience in commissioning and because of the relationships I'd built with the sector, I was asked by the council's cabinet to do ⁓ a review of how small grants and other, some commission activities were handled by the local authority with the sector. And so that brought me even closer. And then from there, were changing, things were changing around, community safety. ⁓ world and police and crime commissioners were coming in at the time, which I didn't agree with. so I knew I wanted to make the change and go. And for me, the natural progression of where my heart had started to be more and more was the charity sector. so made that move and came out and took on ⁓ first sort of senior management role in the charity sector. And then from there, two years on, ⁓ I and was appointed as a CEO for the first time. ⁓ That's sort of my journey into it really in terms of that. I never set out with the intention necessarily, but now I absolutely wouldn't look back. I love working in the sector. For all the challenges and for all the other things, fundamentally what we do is deliver social impact. And that's what I've always been driven by, is the impact on other people that you can make. And so that's why this public and charity sector world has always been. sort of my home really and where I felt most comfortable in working. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that transition from, like you say, commissioning services, you know, still very much working in that wanting to deliver social impact, but I guess, you know, in the charity world, you get to be that bit more hands on with it. You mentioned there within the route in, obviously starting with a trustee role. I mean, do think that was quite pivotal in that helping you make that transition as well? Rob Avann (he/him): Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I would, you know, I'm hugely passionate about trusteeship in general. And obviously having done it five times, you know, you can tell that. I, you know, I always say to other chief executives, you know, when I mentor other people or people who are aspiring to be, you know, in that position in the future, I always say go and be a trustee somewhere else because it absolutely changes the way you think. You see things from the other side of the table, which is as a CEO. absolutely improved my practice because you see things that you take back to your own work that are really good. You see things where you feel actually we're okay, you know, in this area, you know, in comparison. You see other things where you better understand how to, you know, put forward better decisions to your board, how to work with your board and what it feels like to be one of those volunteers who's sacrificing their time and energy because they care about the cause. You maybe understand that and have a different insight that they're... you know, they're absolutely, the board are there to assist you in your work as a CEO and having that really strong relationship where there's that trust and respect on both sides. That can definitely be helped by the fact that you've been there and done it yourself and you understand, you know, what comes with it. So yes, I'd say that was hugely pivotal, definitely. ⁓ Adam Stacey: Yeah. And I know we're leaping a little bit forward, but I guess whilst we're here in the conversation, it's probably because you have sat on both sides as chief exec and on the board. now obviously in the capacity now is consulting. mean, what are some of the, like you say, that relationship's pivotal, right? The board and chief exec relationships are so important. I mean, what are some of the things that you see, I don't know, chief execs consistently get wrong in the way that they report or work with their board and vice versa, boards working with their chief execs? Rob Avann (he/him): Yes. I think you have to start from that trust and that communication, I think is fundamental. I think you, as a CEO, you have to work particularly really closely with the chair. It's the chair-CEO relationship is by far the most important relationship in the charity stop. ⁓ You have to as a pair, have to work as tandem and understand ⁓ each other's roles and how you facilitate and support things moving forward and have that. It's the chair-CEO relationship is by far the most important relationship in the charity stop. ⁓ You have to as a pair, have to work as tandem and understand ⁓ each other's roles and how you facilitate and support things moving forward and have that. that shared vision, which doesn't mean that you're going to agree on everything. Sometimes naturally you're going to have a difference of But how you handle that is around trust and respect and that understand what comes with it. ⁓ I think that is often some of the things where I see things go wrong and that lack of understanding of what it's like to sit in the other person's shoes. that shared vision, which doesn't mean that you're going to agree on everything. Sometimes naturally you're going to have a difference of But how you handle that is around trust and respect and that understand what comes with it. ⁓ I think that is often some of the things where I see things go wrong and that lack of understanding of what it's like to sit in the other person's shoes. I've not been a chair yet myself. It's something in the future I would love. do and see that side as well. Obviously I've been on boards great deal so I am drawn to that at some stage in the future that I would like to complete that circle and do that side as well because again I think it would aid my practice and my understanding. I say from being on boards and taking on other responsibilities and ⁓ sharing and other things ⁓ that relationships are really really important. think for the board When you're there as a trustee, it's understanding that your team, they're not just operational CEOs, they are also strategic. And it's understanding that they care about the cause, they know the ins and outs of the work better than anybody else. And that sort of listening and understanding and trying to balance your support with the challenge. can't veer too much on either side of the divide. You can't go all out support, you can't go all out challenge. You need to have balance in the middle and off. ⁓ where I find when I'm working on governance now, there's some of the areas where, and of course part of working on governance is having the right framework, right? You need the right policies, the right procedures, the right ways of working to facilitate those relationships. But it starts from relationships. It starts from being able to work with other people and build that relationship and that trust in being honest and acting with integrity and all of those things. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. You're right, it's getting that balance between the check and the challenge, support and the challenge. And as you say, that relationship is key to that, but I guess also a working framework around expectations. And I guess ⁓ chief executives new into roles about setting, I guess to a degree, setting a tone of how they're going to work with the boards and versa. I recognise this is two ways. Rob Avann (he/him): Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, think, you know, setting out your stall at the beginning on both sides of the party, you know, in terms of how you're going to work together. Yeah, it's absolutely important. But starting from that point of view with, you know, that open communication and just as we did at the start of this call out of that sense of, you know, starting to get to know each other on a personal level, you know, amongst the work is ultra powerful too, because you need to understand, you know, values and what drives people and the things that they're really into and interested in because sometimes it's that taking an interest and that being able to talk about other topics outside the charity's framework that will help deepen some of those relationships. You understand each other better and sort of find your way forward. So I think that open sharing is really important as well ⁓ at the get-go and throughout. Adam Stacey: you know, ⁓ to candidates, particularly that are trying to make that transition as a charity sector a lot, is to look into trustee ⁓ ⁓ guess I'm interested from experience as well, having been a charity chief exec and trustee, and maybe ⁓ doing of those things at the same time, how do navigate that line as ⁓ trustee ⁓ ⁓ that in there for ⁓ the strategy? and not be like, ⁓ I know how to do this. And when I get jumping and hands on, how do you, that line between governance and strategy and operational. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, a really, it's one I see in a number of boards, but I would also say to you that from my experience, ⁓ never, I've never felt myself drawn to wanting to get involved in operational matters. And that might just be a personality, you know, thing that I'm clear on why I'm there ⁓ I'm not there to tell them how to do their jobs. don't, you don't know their, despite being a CEO elsewhere, I don't know their organization. cause as much as they will. So I've always looked to support with helping maybe other board members understand the CEO role and understand the line between management and governance where we don't dip over into telling them how to do, how to carry things out and spending time on that side. I've always maybe tried to advocate for that and advocate for good practice and also celebrated where there is good practice. I've made sure I'm somebody that acknowledges things that are doing really well because I also appreciate as a CEO, when you're a CEO in an organization, getting feedback, honestly, is incredibly difficult because your team are not necessarily going to give you feedback all the time. Obviously, you build those relationships and sometimes that happens, but obviously not all team members are necessarily going to feel comfortable. to tell their CEO the things are doing great, the things are not doing so well, the things they love about you, the things they wish you did more of or did less of or whatever it might be. Sometimes you hear that from peers in other networks and sometimes mentoring is again another really powerful ⁓ area where you can get that feedback from. But I've always seen my chair and my boards, I've always encouraged them to give feedback. And so when I've sat as a pristine, I've also been really, really clear that we should recognize their value and we should acknowledge the work that goes in and acknowledge things when they're really good and they've done some amazing work that we make sure that we absolutely step up and do that and we acknowledge it. That we don't just take it for granted and we don't just not say anything because it's expected or because we don't know how they take it if we suddenly went, you know, that was an amazing piece of work, well done. so, yeah, I've always tried to encourage that too. Adam Stacey: been ways that you've been able to develop those relationships between know what you know Chief Executive Chair or Board and the senior leadership team I guess from either side of the coin things that work well for you in your sort of career today in building that building that trustworthy relationship. Rob Avann (he/him): I think for me with a chair, is from the position of trust and that, ⁓ each other ⁓ ⁓ the time to build that relationship and understanding where that line moves forward. I think ⁓ you build trust is there, ⁓ I think of great chairs that I've worked with, people I've really appreciated working with, sometimes it's been things like, they've that I would ⁓ keep in the loop on on things, things that they absolutely need to know, the things that are happening within the charity or the little things that come up from time to time. And when we faced a challenge, we did that together. We worked through a way of how can we best split this between us and we faced this down together in a way that you move forward rather than abdicating my part of the responsibility and leaving it to the chair or equally the chair abdicating theirs and leaving it to me. I think it's really important that you come together and you find your way forward. think it's just something that takes effort all the time. And I often say this from a governance standpoint, governance is never done, right? You never get to place B, that everyone's trying to get to the destination. You're always somewhere on that journey. And sometimes it's two steps forward and one step back because people come and go, things change around you. There are things that get thrown up outside the charity's boundaries that you have to deal with. So it's always a work in progress. So I think you just need to keep shuffling those things and keep working on those things together and keeping that open dialogue and open communication. And I think not that it cures all ills, but I think you can find your way through things if you can start with good communication, acting with integrity, building trust and respect. when stuff is not going maybe the way that you wanted it to go. The worst thing you can do is dip into the sort of either abdicating responsibility for it or dipping into blame. You know, as a board, one of the worst and most destructive things you can do is sort of start pointing to your exact team of, you know, how did we get in this place? It must be your fault, ⁓ than actually how do we get through it? What's done is done. How do we move forward from here? And how do we learn some of those lessons that ⁓ us forward? There's a place for accountability, but there is ⁓ need to sort of stick together and work on those. ⁓ these things together or else it all goes pan-shaped really quickly. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. I think actually one of my reflections of, you know, the charity sector over the last few years, whether it's, you know, going through COVID crisis or funding crisis, cost of living crisis, it's those organisations where there is that close working relationship between board and senior leadership team that have been able to adapt and flex and, know, ⁓ those challenges head on and ⁓ and solve some of those, you know, the big problems that clearly ⁓ are grappling with ⁓ understanding I think that's always the challenge, it's helping the board to understand the challenges at the front line and not just be sort head down in the spreadsheet, but actually recognising the cause that the organisation is there for and the difference that it's making. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, absolutely. And I think you have to have some of those fundamentals in place. As much as the relationship stuff I'm saying is really important, but you also, you've got to have the framework around the way that the board and the exec team work together that supports it. So you need things like scheduled delegation. They are good practice for a reason, right? Because it's about clarity. The more clarity that you have in the organization of who can make what decisions, where things rest, what we're about here, you've got a really clear strategy. And that strategy then is impacting on... how the budgets are set, what the meetings spend the time on, because they're key strategic matters, et cetera. The more clarity that you can have and the more of those basics you've got in place, ⁓ easier your life is ⁓ lots of other fronts. So again, one of the things I often see where the problems come ⁓ where you haven't got some of those fundamentals and you haven't got that clarity. And then it's no wonder that people don't know what they're doing, that they dip into things they shouldn't be. ⁓ because you start from a place without clarity. And I think too often people look at strategy and key governance documents as being something over there we'll get to when the time comes. And the time never comes because you're so busy dealing with the operational stuff. there you starting point, right? That's where you should start. And if you come into a post as a CEO and you find those things aren't in place, that's the first thing to work on because too easily you'll get driven into... deal with operational staff without having that clarity and sooner or later that will become a problem. Adam Stacey: that a lesson that you've learned along the way ⁓ from being a chief executive in the sector and yeah, that some of the experience that you bring from being on both sides? Rob Avann (he/him): Well, where I've seen it go wrong, certainly client work and where I've seen that be an issue, absolutely, where you've got that lack of clarity and where I think that, where I bring experience of where things have been good through hard times. So, I've for a closure of a charity as a trustee, been through, ⁓ I through COVID as a CEO, which was incredibly difficult and incredibly. ⁓ tiring and ⁓ emotionally demanding to lead through that period. I think for many in the sector, people are still just about recovering from that period really, because it was so difficult and so intense. But I think having some of those fundamentals there meant that you don't sail your way through those, but you find an easier way through it than might have been the case if you hadn't had some of those fundamental things in place. I'm grateful that I was able to have some of those fundamentals there that made those journeys a little bit easier than they might have been otherwise. Adam Stacey: Yeah, and as you reflect on your career within the charity sector, chief exec senior leadership roles, we're interested, I guess, in the things that you think have helped support you and grow within your career and things that have been helpful to you along the way. People have talked about all sorts of different things, I guess, in these types of ⁓ conversations I've had from mentoring to qualifications to inspiring hiring managers and ⁓ boards trustees. What do you think has helped, you know, some of the things that helped you sort of progress your career within the sector over the last few years? Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, I definitely think mentoring, I'm really passionate about mentoring and I still do quite a lot of mentoring both pro bono and paid these days. And I'm really passionate about it. I benefited from having some amazing mentors while I was a CEO. I also look at, I guess, where I've taken lessons from managers. We've all worked for people that we have, you have good and bad experiences, don't you, of people who have led you. at times or have been in those senior positions and the rest of you take from them. And I definitely have tried to adapt those things into my own practice. And I think about the managers that I really enjoyed working for. I try and emulate, you know, their style and the sense of, you know, the things that really mattered to me where, you know, I felt supported, I felt valued, I felt appreciated. I felt like they always had my back. But I also felt like they gave me the time and the space to sort ⁓ develop. to take on new things, to take on new opportunities. They let me go with some of those things and learn the lessons from it. But they're always to support rather than tell me how to do it ⁓ close me down. I really appreciate that style. But yes, think mentoring ⁓ crucially important. And for any ChiefExec, I think finding a mentor. And there are loads of service out there that do that for free. is ⁓ something that I would say to anybody to go and do, just as I would say go and be a trustee somewhere else because it changes ⁓ perspective and it made me a better Chief Executive in that and having ⁓ insight and that experience. ⁓ I'd say those things are really important. I think for your wider team, ⁓ hiring it's supporting the people around you. ⁓ and have clarity in what you're asking them to do and clear accountabilities, but ultimately let them fly as well and delegate those responsibilities. Delegation is something to really work on as a chief executive. It never will be all on your shoulders. It can't be. You won't be successful if you try and do everything yourself. You won't be. And I'm not an expert in all the different areas that my charities have done. Or you have to look to the people that you bring in who are experts. and take their advice and let them move forward with things around it. So I definitely think that hiring well and obviously making sure that they've got support around them, that they have access to mentoring. I've brought in coaching for my managers. That's been incredibly powerful and helpful to have somebody else to work on those areas that's outside the organization. And you see the benefit of those. Adam Stacey: Yeah, and if you're speaking to a chief exec today or senior leadership team that you're trying to find or encouraging them to find mentor, I'm just thinking, you there's going be people listening here. What's a good way of, I don't know, finding a mentor? Yeah, how do you go about that? Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, well, I guess if you're in the sector already, you look at organisations like Cranfield Trust. For example, I'm a volunteer with Cranfield Trust, offer mentoring as well as other free consultancy services for you to do action learning sets too. So there are lots of things through that route that you can take up. ACEVO also provides mentoring for to move things forward. There are other organisations out there, the Kilfinan Group. offer free mentoring for charity leaders from the business sector. I personally had two mentors through Kilfinan and they were absolutely brilliant. People I never would have met or come into contact with otherwise and they were excellent. Obviously, the other route is to somebody that you ⁓ have and respect for that maybe has been there before ask them if they'd be willing to ⁓ meet over coffee and start a mentoring relationship. Obviously, that's quite a big ask for people. ⁓ I'm always really interested when I get those requests of people to give time to and to think about if you're a map moving forward and how you could help. So they're just some routes to look into. Adam Stacey: And that peer-to-peer, like you say, reaching out, mean the sector on the whole is very receptive to that type of thing as well. Yeah, absolutely. Rob Avann (he/him): It is. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think so. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's great. So tell us a little bit. So we've got this, know, commissioning into senior leadership in the charity sector, then transitioning to consulting over the last 18 months ⁓ ⁓ Yeah, talk to us a little bit about that transition and how that's, yeah, how that's gone. And yeah, what's it like being on the outside looking in? ⁓ Rob Avann (he/him): Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely different and it's really interesting and I'm loving it. really enjoying the variety. I love the variety, right? That's one thing I've always loved and I always love about the sector. One of the things that I'm really passionate about the charity sector about is not just the social impact we make, but the diversity of social impact, right? The range of causes that are within the charity world. has always inspired me and that's why I've been a trustee in different parts of the sector because I've really enjoyed that and you learn different things from being a trustee of a local independent museum versus being a trustee of a grant-giving trust. They're completely different. There's some similarities obviously and things around there, the different things that you learn. So I've always loved that diversity of it and I guess for me now in consulting, I love the fact that I've done governance, I've done a number of governance reviews for clients at different sizes, different positions that they were in, different things moving forward. enjoyed that and being able to bring that perspective of seeing ⁓ observing the things that I recognise from being a trustee myself and the things that I recognise from being ⁓ CEO and that there's a balance between them is really, really interesting. So I really like doing governance reviews. It's partly because I'm sort of... detail orientated and I enjoy, it's not rules based for me. It's always about one of the reasons I love governance is because it's about, it's more about people dynamics, right? It's about how the right people are in the right place with the right information to make the right decisions moving forward. And I've always loved those tensions, those relationships, things around it. And I'm so passionate about the prestige shift. So I see it ⁓ another side. So I really enjoy that work. I'm also in an interim CEO role at the moment, which I'm also really enjoying the first time I've been an interim CEO. You haven't been a permanent twice before. And obviously that's different and different challenges that come with lots of things in between, still do some mentoring, doing a big strategy development project at the moment. So ⁓ of different bits that I really enjoy. So yeah, I like the variety and the diversity. ⁓ Obviously being a consultant does come with those challenges over balancing. I mean, you'll understand this, but balancing the business development versus the delivery that you're doing right now. And you're always trying to look at your pipeline as you know, three months from now, what's the next thing? But I kind of enjoy that. I'm kind of enjoying side. I'm learning as I go and I'm figuring out more and more of the things that I love and the things that I don't like so much. you ⁓ doing projects on my own, but also doing a project in collaboration with another. which I've absolutely loved and learned so much from working with him. So lots of bits around that. Adam Stacey: Yeah, mean, presumably there's been the odd sleepless night maybe along the way as well with, you know, what have I done? Yes. Rob Avann (he/him): ⁓ of course, of course. Yeah, definitely. you know, when you've got, you know, I've got, as I mentioned, three kids, you know, there is that responsibility that comes with it. And, you know, it's a big decision to have made to have said, I'm going to start out on my own and I'm going to do this, you know, and make it work. But suppose, you know, I also have confidence in, ⁓ know, being able to do that and knowing that I can add value ⁓ you know, if I can find the right things and you start building it up, rolling it ⁓ that you hope it builds into something more. So yeah, yeah, it's good. Adam Stacey: Yeah, that's great. No, and good to hear how well things are going. It kind of feels like this sort of portfolio of different projects and different things that are happening. You talked about some of the differences about being an interim CEO compared to a permanent CEO. It'd be interesting to hear a bit more about, I guess, your reflections on that. How does it feel different to being an interim to a permanent? Rob Avann (he/him): Yes. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. obviously, I'm still, you know, it's early days in the sense of my interim experience. So maybe it's another conversation later down the line on what I learned and what I took from it. it definitely, it does feel different in the sense that you're not the long term person, you're not the long term permanent person for the organisation. And you bring a different set of skills into it where... where the organization needs your help and your expertise around charity governance, charity leadership, how they sort of move themselves forward. But that's my focal areas is sort of assessing, as you would as a consultant, you know, coming in, meeting with everybody, doing the listing, you know, and the reviewing and then drawing up a really clear plan of these are the things that we need to get done before you're going to be ready to have somebody come into organization that is, ⁓ know, ready for them and ready to move forward to your next chapter. ⁓ It's definitely, it's different in that sense, whereas a permanent, obviously you can take a longer term view of, you know, things that you're really going to work on and you're perhaps more cause driven, I think would be fair to say as well in the interim capacity, I am expertise driven in the sense that I'm, you know, assessing it and moving things forward. I'm not so much on the cause, you know, driven side in that sense as somebody else might be in the future. And that's appropriate for where, you know, you're at now. And it'll be different for... for a permanent. So I think that's one of the biggest differences I've noticed, I suppose, and the biggest difference between the two. There are other things as well around it, but certainly that's one of biggest differences. Adam Stacey: you go back. I guess breaking down some of the barriers maybe. I mean, I've never been an interim CEO and I've never been a charity consultant, but I've been an employee in charities that have brought in interims or brought in consultants. And I guess there's always a nervousness for the team about, well, they're bringing this person, they're going to tell us what we already know, are they going to change things? But I'm here for the long term, know, that type of thing. Yeah, I don't know your circumstances of whether that's what you face, but yeah, how do you sort of build that rapport? Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah No, I would say, you know, so far in my experience, and obviously I'm still early in my consultancy journey too, but I would say so far in my experience, I've come across less of that than I have of actually, really want you to help, you know, we really need the expertise and the assistance on moving forward. And actually people have been really willing to work on that. I do think again, that's part on relationships and how you go into it that I suppose. Also that you listen and you build some of trust and respect on also recognizing the areas where they're actually really good and where they're delivering some amazing stuff despite maybe other challenging, extenuating circumstances. And I think maybe also recognizing, I've been through difficult stuff as both a trustee and a CEO along the way. And I think maybe sometimes having that ability to say, like, you're not alone. This has happened elsewhere or I've been through this before. this is how we there and sort of move those things through. Maybe helps take away part of the, you this is only us and therefore like, you know, that you're sort of, ⁓ you that they're in this position because of something unique about that organization as opposed to, ⁓ you wider issues that are across the sector. So again, I think it does come back to relationships and how you start out working together and. Obviously, the fit is really important. Whenever I meet with a potential client, I'm also looking at that fit. Am I the right person for you? much as is this the right role and the right sort of project for me that really floats my boat? ⁓ it's nice to be able to be in that position sometimes, but it is really important, I think, that you don't take stuff that you are not the right fit for. I'm lucky to also have a network of... other consultants and to be part of a number of other networks that I can pass things to that I'm not the right fit for you or I am not the right set of skills, but I know this person over here would be a great fit and it's exactly the kind of thing that they love doing. I'm able to sometimes do some of that too. yeah, I think that relationship stuff is the really important part to not have people on the back foot immediately and to start on the right side as you mean to go on. Adam Stacey: on where I'm at others and some ⁓ work and evolution for me to do. Rob Avann (he/him): No, not at all! No, no, I think you're right. You know, and I definitely think I will almost certainly have that experience at some stage of people being more, you know, on the back foot or more resistant, perhaps. But I'm fortunate to this point that that hasn't been the case. I've been lucky to be in places where, you know, they sort of they want that expertise and they want things to move forward and change. Obviously, sometimes does that change when they hear, you know, the outcome or the findings, of course, and sometimes how you how you deal with that and how you, you know, move things on is really important. I suppose one other experience I would say on governance reviews, sometimes you can find stuff that is a surprise to the people. There are things that they're not surprised about, and there are maybe one or two things that sometimes they're intrigued as to where that, and didn't necessarily think maybe something was in the position that it's in or didn't appreciate that might be a priority. And I think for me, one of the things I always do at the end of a governance review after they've had their sort of the final report is to bring everybody together in a workshop to review the recommendations and the findings as a group, you know, as trustees and senior team, but also make it really clear to people that you, you know, I'm a vessel for what has come out. is not Rob is saying, you know, this is a recommendation. It is the facts of what I've seen, what I've reviewed, what I've observed, what you have said in interviews. and the things along the way. I think sometimes helping them to understand that this is like you're holding up a mirror to them. This is what we've seen and heard, but it's not your take on things. It is the facts of the matter that have come out in the review. think, again, how you handle that is important with people and asking them to work through and prioritize and where they might disagree. But it's natural to have those conversations around it. But now you agree actions that you're going to move forward. And in my experience, when you do bring them together, you go into it with this belief that there's going to be differences of opinion and the organization might be slightly concerned. There's going to be big differences. And actually, when I come out of those days, it's always been a really positive experience. And actually, there's a lot more agreement and a lot more alignment than people thought there was going in. That they've actually pretty agreed in it and aligned on the priorities moving forward. sometimes reassures and helps move forward too. Adam Stacey: Yeah, indeed. Unreally rewarding, isn't it? ⁓ For everybody in the room, actually, because we can creatures that want to avoid those difficult conversations or those conflicts, but actually ⁓ that facilitation to be to put it out in the open and then, ⁓ you say, put that marker down and move things forward and put a plan in place. Actually, everybody comes out of the room going, well, blimey, ⁓ much value we've added in this process. Rob Avann (he/him): really rewarding. definitely. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely, and it's really powerful when you hear someone, a ⁓ trustee or a staff member say to you, thank you, that I thought I was the only one that felt like this. I thought it was only me that saw this. I thought I was wrong this side and everyone else is a different approach. And actually, sometimes that ⁓ really helpful move things Adam Stacey: time has time has flown by this probably is one of those that yeah we're have to have a follow-up conversation 12 months down the line and yes see yeah delve a little bit deeper ⁓ but I guess if you were to go back ⁓ give your younger self we try and ask this question of people ⁓ piece of advice at the start of your career or something that you think has shaped you as a leader as reflect on your career to date yeah is there something that sort of springs springs to mind Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, no worries, of course. suppose shaping me as a leader, as I mentioned earlier on, would be the people that I've seen do it well around me and the people I've respected. think if I went back and spoke to myself now, ⁓ would say maybe to acknowledge that a little bit more than maybe I did at the time in terms of actually, there are some people along the way that were great managers to me that I have told them how I felt about them and the impact they made on me and how that has ⁓ of changed things for me. But I wish maybe I'd done a bit more of that as a 25 year old or whatever. I'd maybe said that more often and acknowledge some of those things and those impacts made. I think definitely taking on boards the people around you that are good in your own practice. And I think being, I suppose what I'm proud of is that I've always tried to be open-minded in my own practice, looked at the area, been reflective of my own practice, looked at areas where I can improve and taken on board. the external insights of being a trustee, of being mentored, and having some of those other experiences. So I would encourage people to do that and take it on. And I suppose the only other lesson I'd say for any leader, again, not to feel like you've got to do it all yourself. I think it's the mistake we make. And when you work in the charity world, and there's so much to do every day, and the organization's never where you want it to be as a chief exec, you're never there all. And again, because you don't often get that feedback, as I mentioned earlier on, you sometimes sit on and dwell on the areas where you're not so great and where the organization is not so great. And you take, you know, you take that to heart as a personal responsibility. And I can definitely think of occasions when I have done that. ⁓ know, sometimes, and again, having mentors that sometimes have drawn me out of that, well, look at what you have done, Rob. Look at all the other things, you know, look at all that. and all the other stuff that zooming out of the organisation that I can see and that you have achieved and that you move on. So I think there's definitely something about that and making sure that as a leader, you don't dwell on the bad, but you also, and that's not to say don't be reflective, you should be, but don't dwell too much in the things that you don't achieve and don't do so well. And also making sure that you delegate and you give other people around, you put good people around you and you give them the time and space to take those things on again. proud to do that and to see people fly. But it's really important to me, it's one of the things I've always loved about managing people. It's one of things I miss now, ⁓ terms of being a consultant, and I don't have that same experience anymore. So you ⁓ miss on that side. But I think that ⁓ is really important thing to ⁓ have people around you and make sure that you are devolving some of that responsibility to move on because you cannot, you won't. you you won't be able to do it and won't be able to avoid burnout if you don't do it you know you have you have to be able to do that. Adam Stacey: Superb insight. Thank you so much for coming on show. As long as you're happy, we'll tag you up on LinkedIn. guess, you know, people want to drop you a message or get in touch. I presume that's probably the best route through. And ⁓ yeah, we'll obviously make sure that we share your details in ⁓ show notes as well. ⁓ just a huge thank you, Rob, for coming on the show today. Really appreciate your time. Rob Avann (he/him): Of course. I really appreciate the conversation, Adam. Thanks for having me on and thanks for the question. It's been really interesting. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, great conversation. And yeah, I forward to catching up again soon. Rob Avann (he/him): Yeah, thank you.