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#2026 New Breast Cancer Research - David Gillespie · The You Project

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  Speaker 1: I'll get a team. It's it's the new project. Of
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  Speaker 1: course it is. It's your favorite podcast. That may not
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  Speaker 1: be true. Maybe it's just a podcast, could be your favorite.
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  Speaker 1: I hope it is.
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  Speaker 2: Tiffany and Cook's probably probably one of your favorites. If
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: this is one of your favorites, Hi, tiv.
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  Speaker 3: High Harps, it's one of my favorites, that's for sure.
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  Speaker 1: Is it in the top five, It's definitely in the
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  Speaker 1: top five. It's just in my top five, and it's
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  Speaker 1: my show.
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  Speaker 2: So it's like it comes in at number five, it
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  Speaker 2: comes in at number five. That's not true. I don't
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  Speaker 2: even listen. I listened a bit. I just had actually
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  Speaker 2: two minus before we went live. Andrew May, who's been
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: on the podcast too as his own podcast of course,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: High Performance Coach.
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  Speaker 1: Man about Tanny Rangmini, just said he was listening to
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: the show and he loves it.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, it's nice when other people who have
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: their own shows listen to our show and say nice things.
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  Speaker 1: A little bit of validation.
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  Speaker 2: But I get which you would think, because everyone thinks
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  Speaker 2: I've got a big head, maybe that I would like
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  Speaker 2: listening to me.
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  Speaker 1: I actually do not like listening to me. At all.
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  Speaker 2: I would rather I reckon out of the twenty twenty
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  Speaker 2: or so that we've done, I've maybe listened to two
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  Speaker 2: podcasts right through, like Start Finish two, and maybe not
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  Speaker 2: even right through. I just I don't like the sound
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  Speaker 2: of my own voice. I'm very familiar with it, but
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  Speaker 2: I don't like the sound of it. And I, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: what about you, gilespo do you You probably don't hear
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  Speaker 2: a lot of yourself, or do you.
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  Speaker 4: I used to do a lot of media, and you know,
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  Speaker 4: television shows and so on, when various books came out.
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  Speaker 4: I can't stand watching or listening to myself. Most people
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  Speaker 4: don't like it much, and you know why, because of
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  Speaker 4: the way you sound in your head is very, very
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  Speaker 4: different to the way you sound when it's recorded, because
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  Speaker 4: it's much much deeper and more resonant when you're hearing it,
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  Speaker 4: because of the vibrations and so on, of the bonestructures
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  Speaker 4: in your skull. And people always say I feel like
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  Speaker 4: I sound a lot tinier in you know, when when
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  Speaker 4: I hear myself played back, and I agree with that
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  Speaker 4: sounds awful. I wish I sounded the way I sound
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  Speaker 4: to me, but very few people do. And they've got
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  Speaker 4: jobs in radio, because you will have met many of
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  Speaker 4: those people, especially deep voiced people, particularly deep voiced females,
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  Speaker 4: are the ones who work best in radio.
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  Speaker 1: That's right, and welcome back to the You Project.
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  Speaker 2: David Glesbie, Tivanty and Cook joining me Craig Harper for
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  Speaker 2: another compelling episode of the U Project. That's funny you
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  Speaker 2: say that, right, because I mentioned this in my presentations
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  Speaker 2: quite often when we're talking about self awareness. And we
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  Speaker 2: were briefly talking about my PhD focus before we started recording,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, what's it like being around me? And
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  Speaker 2: as way of introduction to the idea of metaperception and
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  Speaker 2: kind of this kind of external self awareness concept, I
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  Speaker 2: say to people, put up your hand if you've heard
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  Speaker 2: your voice, you know, audio recording. And everybody kind of
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  Speaker 2: shakes their head and goes ah and puts up their hand.
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  Speaker 2: And then I say, depending on which environment, something like,
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  Speaker 2: put your hand back up if you think you sound shit,
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  Speaker 2: And everybody puts their hand back up, and I say, well,
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  Speaker 2: that's how you sound all the time to the rest
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  Speaker 2: of the world, and then they laugh and I go,
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  Speaker 2: that's kind of a bit of an analogy here, because
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  Speaker 2: we that is what you sound like. And even I mean,
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  Speaker 2: you've seen yourself on TV. I did a bit of
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  Speaker 2: tally for a while for a few years on Channel ten,
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  Speaker 2: and the same it's like, I didn't watch I watched one.
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  Speaker 2: I watched one, the first one I ever did, and
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  Speaker 2: I hated it so much. I never watched another one.
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  Speaker 2: And even if I would come into whatever, the house
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  Speaker 2: or the gym or whatever and it was on, I
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  Speaker 2: would not watch it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what about but anyway.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I avoided at all costs. I won't
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  Speaker 4: watch myself. I won't even to the point, as you've
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  Speaker 4: seen here, I don't even turn my camera on here
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  Speaker 4: because it's so irritating to see myself.
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  Speaker 1: That is that is that is an unknown now known.
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  Speaker 2: We may have mentioned it once maybe, but everybody David
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  Speaker 2: David said, I don't know how many, like a lot,
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  Speaker 2: one hundred podcasts with us, maybe more, maybe less, I
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  Speaker 2: don't know, but give I'll take a hundred and for
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  Speaker 2: every single second of every one of these recordings that
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  Speaker 2: we do with him, we've never seen his face.
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  Speaker 1: He could be a fucking you know computer, he could
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  Speaker 1: be a side.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm an AI. Yeah, that's right.
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  Speaker 2: It could be one of those super computer they call it.
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  Speaker 2: You could be a quantum computer for all we know,
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  Speaker 2: just managing everything and multitasking.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Why do you just not like to see yourself when
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  Speaker 2: you're talking? Is it better for focus and concentration or
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  Speaker 2: it just that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, a brough head.
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  Speaker 4: Well it's that too. It's it's all of those things.
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  Speaker 4: It helps me focus if if I'm not looking at myself.
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  Speaker 4: But it also yeah, yeah, so I've got a rough head.
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  Speaker 1: Yet you're you're a right ma.
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  Speaker 2: You're handsome to us and your mum. So you wrote
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  Speaker 2: an article today about breast cancer, which I have not Sorry, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: breast cancer which I have not looked at.
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  Speaker 4: What was that about?
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  Speaker 1: What was I only?
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  Speaker 4: All right?
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  Speaker 1: Throw me under the bus.
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  Speaker 4: You should be you should be hanging off off my
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  Speaker 4: every written word. Yeah I am. It's been up there
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  Speaker 4: for three or four hours and you haven't even bothered
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  Speaker 4: to look at it.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I finally I could see your face, I'd feel
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  Speaker 2: more connected.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the missing link. What tell
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  Speaker 1: us about that article if you would.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so before we get to the thing it's about,
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  Speaker 4: which is a very recent study, let's do a little
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  Speaker 4: bit of history. You know, you you'd be familiar, no doubt, Craig,
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  Speaker 4: But just for the benefit of some of your listeners,
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  Speaker 4: with good old Bernardino Ramezini.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I call him, I call him, but go on.
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  Speaker 4: Yet he's generally considered to be the father of occupational medicine,
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  Speaker 4: so you know that would ring a bell with you,
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  Speaker 4: no doubt. He wrote a paper, well the book really,
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  Speaker 4: in seventeen thirteen, and he published it just a year
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  Speaker 4: before he died. Coincidentally, but the book was the very
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  Speaker 4: first time anyone had bothered to look at what people
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  Speaker 4: did as a job and compare it to the diseases
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  Speaker 4: they most often died from. So he looked at everything.
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  Speaker 4: He had hundreds and hundreds of jobs, and he would compare.
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  Speaker 4: He did all this analysis of what are these people
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  Speaker 4: do and what do they die from? And it's all
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  Speaker 4: very very interesting if you care to go and read it,
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  Speaker 4: and you can read Latin. But for the of today's discussion,
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  Speaker 4: he also noticed a really interesting thing, which is that
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  Speaker 4: nuns were more likely to die of breast cancer than
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  Speaker 4: people who were not nuns.
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  Speaker 1: Can I guess why?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, go for it.
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  Speaker 2: I can't remember the mechanism. But because having children and
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  Speaker 2: breastfeeding is protective in some way from breast cancer. I
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  Speaker 2: can't remember the why or the how, but it's got
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  Speaker 2: there with them. It's got something to do with not
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  Speaker 2: having kids.
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  Speaker 4: I think, well that's what he thought too, So you're
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  Speaker 4: on the same page with old br as you like
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  Speaker 4: to call him. And yeah, and he didn't quite go
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  Speaker 4: to the children, but he just stopped at the sex
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  Speaker 4: bit and decided that not having sex was going to
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  Speaker 4: give you a breast cancer. He didn't really bother to
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  Speaker 4: explain why that might be. But subsequently, you know, less
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  Speaker 4: than one hundred years later, people started to analyze it
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  Speaker 4: a bit and came to the conclusion you did, which is, well,
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  Speaker 4: obviously it's not really about having sex or not having sex,
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  Speaker 4: you know, it's you know, for all we know, nuns
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  Speaker 4: were having sex, but they weren't having children, and so
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  Speaker 4: maybe it's about the kids. And then people went a
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  Speaker 4: little step further and said, well, what the kids do
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  Speaker 4: that might affect the parents' chances of breast cancer? The
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  Speaker 4: kids do anything with breasts that might in some way
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  Speaker 4: affect their chances, And they thought, oh, there's an obvious
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  Speaker 4: connection between having kids and breast cancer is that, you know,
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  Speaker 4: that's the mechanism for feeding them. So maybe breastfeeding has
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  Speaker 4: something to do with breast cancer. And so they theorized.
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  Speaker 4: After backing up his studies, they did more observations and
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  Speaker 4: and even outside nuns concluded that there was a very
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  Speaker 4: definite relationship between whether or not you breastfeed and whether
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  Speaker 4: or not you've got breast cancer. And they didn't know why.
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  Speaker 4: They had a theory which was, oh, look, it's about
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  Speaker 4: the maturity of the breast cells. You know, obviously they're
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  Speaker 4: there to become mature and produce milk, and that action
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  Speaker 4: means that they become less grown to cancer, whereas the
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  Speaker 4: immature version of them is somehow more prone to cancer.
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  Speaker 2: And as a dodgy theory for it, it does sound
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  Speaker 2: like a.
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  Speaker 4: Dodgy theory, But for three hundred years, it was all
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  Speaker 4: we had until this month. So were you to ask
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  Speaker 4: a specialist in this area, what's the thinking on this
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  Speaker 4: a month or two ago, that's the ants he would
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  Speaker 4: have gotten. Now a massive new paper has come out
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  Speaker 4: in Nature, which we were talking before about the levels
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  Speaker 4: of journals. This is about as tier one ish as
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  Speaker 4: you can get. And this is looked in more detail
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  Speaker 4: at this and they started out sort of what kicked
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  Speaker 4: off the study is that they had a cohort of
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  Speaker 4: around two hundred and sixty samples from women who had
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  Speaker 4: had breast tissue removed either from breast reduction surgery or
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  Speaker 4: from preemptive mastectomies and a people. And they had this
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  Speaker 4: sample of two hundred and sixty from two hundred and
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  Speaker 4: sixty different individuals, and none of the tissue was cancer affected.
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  Speaker 4: But what they were doing was measuring something called the
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  Speaker 4: immune T cells in the cancer. This is a sort
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  Speaker 4: of an immune system response that helps combat cancer. So
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  Speaker 4: these are cells that are part of the immune system that,
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  Speaker 4: among other things, can target potential cancer cells in tissue.
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  Speaker 4: And what they found is that a lot, there were
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  Speaker 4: a lot more of these cancer protective cells, these T
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  Speaker 4: cells in the breast tissue of women who had had children,
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  Speaker 4: And even if the tissue had been sampled a long
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  Speaker 4: time after their last child, they still had many, many
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  Speaker 4: more of these protective cells in their breast tissue than
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  Speaker 4: women who had not had children. And this started them
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  Speaker 4: down the path of saying, well, maybe it's not about
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  Speaker 4: this maturity of breast cells nonsense. That we've been believing
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  Speaker 4: for the last three hundred years. And maybe it's not
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  Speaker 4: about being a nun or not on whether or not
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  Speaker 4: you have sex or not. Maybe it's about these immune
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  Speaker 4: systemselves in the tissues. Okay, good theory, but you have
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  Speaker 4: to go a little bit further than that, because that's
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  Speaker 4: just correlation, and as you know, that doesn't prove anything.
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  Speaker 4: So I said, okay, well, what kind of a study
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  Speaker 4: could we create that might prove something? And they went
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  Speaker 4: straight to the porld lab rats and mice it was
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  Speaker 4: actually mice in this case, and set up three different
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  Speaker 4: cohorts of test mice. They had mice with pups, mice
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  Speaker 4: without pups, and a third group that had undergone a
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  Speaker 4: full lactation and winning cycle so had breastfeed essentially. Then
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  Speaker 4: they implanted cancer cells into the equivalent of the breast
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  Speaker 4: tissue in these animals, and the results really were about
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  Speaker 4: as black and white as you could possibly imagine them
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  Speaker 4: to be. The cancer cells were much less frequent, so
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  Speaker 4: the cells were implanted, so gave them cancer essentially, but
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  Speaker 4: it didn't turn into cancer in the group that had
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  Speaker 4: gone through the lactation cycle. In other words, the group
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  Speaker 4: that had breastfed, even if they weren't breastfeeding, if you like,
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  Speaker 4: at that time they'd gone through that cycle. And when
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  Speaker 4: they analyzed, well, there was many, much much higher percentage
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  Speaker 4: of these T cells in those animals than in the others.
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  Speaker 4: And just to test it out even more, they then
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  Speaker 4: suppressed the T cell action in those ones, and the
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  Speaker 4: cancer grew just as fast as in the others, So
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  Speaker 4: that pretty much definitively nailed it. Yes, it's the T
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  Speaker 4: cells that are doing this, at least in mice, and
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  Speaker 4: it kind of looks like it might be in humans
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  Speaker 4: as well, because we're seeing a similar effect. But to
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: take it back to the humans, they then looked at
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  Speaker 4: two large studies of more than a thousand women who
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  Speaker 4: had been diagnosed with a particular type of breast cancer
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  Speaker 4: called triple negative breast cancer, which is a particularly aggressive
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  Speaker 4: sort of breast cancer people often refer to as the
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  Speaker 4: as the bracker breast cancer. It affects women under forty,
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  Speaker 4: much more aggressive than most and much more resistant to treatment.
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  Speaker 4: And they looked at studies of those where they had
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  Speaker 4: been measuring They collected data on whether or not the
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: women had breast fed, and what they found is that
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  Speaker 4: the women who had breastfed were much less risk and
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  Speaker 4: much more likely to recover from this particularly aggressive cancer
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  Speaker 4: than those who had not. So that's about as good
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  Speaker 4: as you can get without, you know, going the full
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  Speaker 4: Monty and dividing women into groups of women who have
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  Speaker 4: breastfed and women who are having implanted cancer cells in them,
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: which you know, ethics people will have a problem with, I.
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  Speaker 1: Guess I think so. Yeah, it might have hard getting
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  Speaker 1: ethical approval on that.
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  Speaker 4: Always people who worry about these sorts of things. But
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: this gets about as close as you possibly can to
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  Speaker 4: doing that. So they've observed it in human tissue, they've
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  Speaker 4: replicated it in mice, they've gone back to the humans
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  Speaker 4: and seen exactly the same effect in humans when the
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: humans have breastfed. And then and there's still one remaining
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: thing coming back to your mate from seventeen hundred is
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: what if it's not about the breastfeeding, but what if
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: it's about having the kids in some other way, and
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: it's not the breastfeeding, it's having the kids, Because both
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: of those things tend to go together. And you know,
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: how can we say we're certainty gets the breastfeeding and
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: not having the kids and The interesting thing is there
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: that they did segment the study a bit and look
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: at some US studies on African American women who have
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: different rates of cancer than Caucasian women, and were able
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  Speaker 4: to by doing some statistical analysis on that. So African
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  Speaker 4: American women tend to have a higher rate of triple
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  Speaker 4: negative breast cancer and also on average have more children,
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: but they have lower rates of breastfeeding than Caucasian women.
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  Speaker 4: And what they found was that it's the breastfeeding part
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  Speaker 4: that provides the protection. So if the breadth, if the
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: African American woman had more children but also breastfeed, then
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  Speaker 4: she was more less luckly to have the cancer. Now
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: this kind of backs up some observational studies have been
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: done for quite some time in Australia where they've observed
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: there is something that you can measure here. They've actually
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: managed to put some numbers on this, which is that
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: various studies are shown that a woman's risk of breast
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: cancer decreases by about seven percent for every child she has,
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: and then in addition to that, for every five months
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  Speaker 4: of breastfeeding, the risk further reduces by about two percent. Wow. Wow,
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  Speaker 4: So this stuff is measurable now they've got a good
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: explanation as to why. Now, this is all very interesting
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: if you, I guess, into immunotherapy and understanding the immune
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: system and all that sort of thing. But coming back
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: to the sort of thing that I guess people might
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: want to ask, which is, well, sure, but I don't
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: plan to have kids, let alone breastfeed anyone might it
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: might be something that it's occurring to people. So you know, yes,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: just raising her hands in the air, So how do
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: you reduce the risk. And the answer would be if
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: you're only looking at this, then there's probably not much
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: you can do other than to find someone to breastfeed.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, put that on your list, will you. That's Golespo's
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: little bit of health advice for you today. So if
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: you can get some breastfeeding going in the next few months.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: But I guess that's the most practical piece of advice
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: is given.
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  Speaker 4: May not be, may not be. The interesting thing here
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  Speaker 4: is the background of the overall significantly increasing rates of
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: breast cancer. And this is always sort of not looked
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: at in these sorts of studies. Is they're just looking
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: at the immediate problem and saying, okay, you know, are
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: there things that make you more or less susceptible to this,
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: and yes, all this is very interesting from that perspective,
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: but there's a background picture here, which is breast cancer
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: rates in this country are going through the roof, not
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: deaths from breast cancer, which is the statistic that often
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: gets reported because treatments are very effective. It's being picked
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: up very early. Survival rates are very high breast cancer,
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: but the incidence is increasing very rapidly. And a more
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: important question to ask when you're talking about all these
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  Speaker 4: things about are you more or less likely to have
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  Speaker 4: breast cancer if you breastfeed, is what about that background
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  Speaker 4: rate that's massively increasing. What's causing that? Before we start
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: getting down to finessing whether or not you're breastfeeding, and
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: we've had this discussion before, it's the same thing that
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: causes all cancers. It's the same reason that all cancers
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: are growing very very rapidly. It's something called aldehydes. Aldehydes
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: are extremely destructive molecules that when we ingest them, attack
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: our DNA, dismember it, mutate, it make us more likely
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: to get cancer of any kind. And we are very
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: familiar with two aldehyde producing substances, alcohol and cigarette smoke.
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: Which are both great at producing aldehyde and therefore causing cancers,
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: but both have been declining. So you know, the current
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: generation of teenagers drink less than anyone before in history,
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: but they're having more cancer. There's less smoking going on
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: now than Australia has had at any time since the
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Second World War. Even if there is a black market
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: trade in the stuff growing up because of all the taxes,
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: it's still a lot less than it was. But the
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: rates are going up, and that's because we've introduced a
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: massive new source of aldehyde into our diet, which is
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: the granddaddy of them all, the one that produces the
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: worst kind of aldehyde, a little chap called four HNE
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: is seed oils. So the fats that they fry our
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: chips in, the fats in the margarine they put on
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: our sandwich in the deli, the fat in the mayonnaise
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: they spread on our sandwich in the deli, the fat
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: the fat they put in our bread. All those seed
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: oils are very very high in amiga six fats, which
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: are the only way to produce four HNE, one of
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: the more most dangerous alder hides we can consume. So
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: at the same time as societally we probably have less
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: women who are breastfeeding for all number of reasons, less
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: women having children. For starters, the Australian birth rate is
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: dropping like a stone, so less women having children and
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: therefore less women breastfeeding, which is a protective mechanism according
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: to this science. At exactly the same time as we're
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: doing that, we're giving those women a source of aldehydes,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: which that no women in history have ever been exposed to.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: So we're massively increasing the things that could cause cancer
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: in the first place, as at a time when societally,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: for a large number of reasons, we have women who
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: are less likely to have the natural built in protection
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: that this science says comes from breastfeed. Now, what this
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: doesn't say is if you don't breastfeed, you will get
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: breast cancer. It doesn't say that that's nonsense. This is
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: population level stuff. But what it does say is we
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: have a trend in society where less people are breastfeeding,
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: which is a protective factor, and we have a simultaneous
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: trend where we are giving those same people a much
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: higher exposure to things that are likely to cause cancer.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is the decline in breastfeeding primarily about just the
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: decline in number of people that are giving birth, like
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the dropping birth rate, or is it because there's another
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: reason people are choosing formula or whatever. I'm thinking that
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: the companies that produce formula won't like this research.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: Look, there's always been an endless battle ever since the
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: Nesle battles. I think it was in the nineteen sixties
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: where they tried to well, they did get half of
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: Africa basically consume formula rather than breastfeeding, which caused all
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: sorts of much more acute complications than the ones we're
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: talking about here, because they would have to use water
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: to make the formula, and the water wasn't particularly safe,
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: so it was very, very dangerous. Legislation came in worldwide,
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: including it in Australia where breastfeeding must be promoted first.
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: And if you ever go to one of those websites
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: of a formula manufacturer, the first thing you'll see when
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: you go to a website like that is something to
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: the effect of breastfeeding first. You know, breastfeeding should be
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: done first, it's highest priority, et cetera, et cetera. They
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: do that because they're required to do that by legislation,
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: not because they want to do it, and they try
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: all kinds of tricky ways to get around it, like,
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: for example, branding toddler formula to be exactly the same
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: as formula formula for baby. So there's formula for babies
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: which has mandated levels of certain things in it because
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: it's a replacement for breast milk, and they'll branded exactly
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: the same as this is stage one or stage two
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: or stage three, et cetera of the formula. They branded
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: exactly the same for toddler formula, which is just basically
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: chocolate milk. So the companies try all kinds of tricks
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: to have people preferring to use that than breastfeeding. The reality, though,
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: of modern life is almost all mothers have to work
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: and have to work, have to get back to work
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: very very quickly, and we are not a society that
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: accommodates breastfeeding and work very very well at all. You know,
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: every now and then there's a flare up in social
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: media about someone being attacked for breastfeeding in public, et cetera,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: et cetera. It's just a reality, is that the society
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: of our grandparents, where the mother didn't have a job
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: and stayed home and breastfeed the kids for a year
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: is not something that most of Australia society can afford now.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: And and so that combined with a much lower birth
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: rate at all. And just to put that in perfect,
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: put some numbers on that birth rate just after the
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: Second World War, the so called baby boom three and
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: a half children per mother. Now we're down under replacement
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: at around one I think is one point one one
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: point two. So there are a lot less babies being born,
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: and of those babies, a lot less of them are
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: having access to significant periods of breastfeeding.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, like I know, there are a lot
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: of different variables and it's not one thing. You know,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: the four HNA is like a big factor of course,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: and what you shared about the seed oils, but just
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: as a standalone thing, so it appears that breastfeeding is
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: probably definitely better for the kid and better for the mum.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: But you can't really what do you do with that
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: information though, I mean, you can't really try to compel
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: people to breastfeed. That seems inappropriate.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: What you wouldn do is be tough about stopping people
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: convincing mothers not to breastfeed, right, which is what the
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: legislation that requires formula manufacturers to say that sort of
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: thing is about but we're kind of easy oasy about
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: it in that we let them get away with marketing
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: that is quite frankly deceptive about it, and so we
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: could be tougher around that. But you can't force women
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: to breastfeed other than doing what we're doing right now, Craig,
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: which is explain why it matters, and it's not just
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: this the act of breastfeeding. There's a whole section of
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: one of my books I kin't of remember which one,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: where I went into this in some detail, looking at
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: the immune system effects of breastfeeding, which is part of
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: the reason of breastfeeding is very effective from an immune perspective,
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: is that effectively the mother is transferring her exposure to
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: everything she's ever encountered her in her entire life to
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: her child, so that the child comes with a pre
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: set set of Hey, you've already seen all these diseases
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: even though you haven't, because your mum has, and her
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: mum has and her mom has.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: So the more like a natural vaccination. Yeah, it's like
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: the world's best, most natural vaccination from mum to kid.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: And there's a reason it works that way, which is
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: there's a way to transmit this information. It's very effective,
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: and it's through breast milk, and you know, explaining that
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: to people, helping them understand why it matters can help.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: It doesn't change if they can't do it at all,
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: which some women can't, or if their circumstances don't permit
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: them to do it. But if you know it, then
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: it's something you can you can aim for even one hundred.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: So I was just going to say, what do we
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: ask the one who asked, I'm thinking that there's only
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: one woman on the panel there?
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Do you no, you're you're a rock solid seventy percent female.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: You know that you've done that's the alleged percentage. What
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: do you say about it?
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: What do you percent that's remotely maternal? Is the thirty
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: percent I don't have?
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Right? What do you think about all this?
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: That makes my brain hurt? It really does. Sometimes David
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: does make my brain hurt on here. Sometimes I wish
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: I didn't understand some of the things he brings to us.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: To understand. What have you got more? Have you got
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: more or less anxiety?
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Now than you more?
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: Now? Oh, that's not the aim. I don't I don't
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: want women to come away from listening to this and
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: think and be in any way guilty about not breastfeeding,
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: or in any way fearful of about the fact they
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: have it. And that's why I said at the start,
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: this does not say that if you don't breastfeed you
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: will have breast cancer. That is not what it says.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: It just says there is a risk factor that they
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: have clearly identified. But you've got to take that about
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: the against the background of the things that are inducing
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: more cancer.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: To begin with, that idea of the concept of being
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: like a natural vaccination, like that baby grew inside the
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: biology of the mother, So everything that she has ever experienced,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: had or been has come from herself. So wouldn't she
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: already be passing on the vast majority of.
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: That seems not it. I mean that that may well
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: have a role to play in it. But the research
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: that I read through for that book, I can't remember
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: which of my books where I talk about this, it
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: really clearly identified the act of breastfeeding as if not
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: the full transference, at least the important end bit to it.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: Mm hm wow, Well, T if I think you better
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: start thinking about procreating, I.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: Was just going to have a word to me.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Capt and dog and seated.
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: Or just oils that you just don't oils.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so get rid of the margarine and the mayo.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: And did someone tell me that margarine is gray before
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: they color it?
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah? It is, yeah, before they color it. Yeah, it's great.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Imagine a big slab of gray shit.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: They know they use to make them. They used to
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: make them color a pink so that you could tell
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: that it was fake. So only butter was allowed to
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: be yellow. So in the United States when they first
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: released it, they had to call it imitation butter and
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: it had to be pink so you could tell on site. Ah, yeah, no,
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: that's the fake stuff.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Where did those rules go? They're great rules.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Well, imagine if that ship got Imagine if the rule
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: was you can't color it's got it?
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: That would be the end of margarine. And it's great.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: And where can people access that that article data?
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: All right, Okay, so I've changed the name because Raisin
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: Hell was so terrible and unmemorable. This may not be
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: any better, but you can you can just you can
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: just go to David David Gillespie dot org and you'll
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: see the article there.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Well, that's that's better. I think that's better. Did you
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: have a whole teamwork on that phone?
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: I did, my entire marketing team. We're up for minutes
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: doing that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: There's even a photo of him, is even a photo
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: of him on that website?
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: There you go. Now I know what he looks like.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: He told me he was six or five with blonde
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: hair and looks like a surfer. Is that true?
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah I was sitting down.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll say goodbye fair but thank you David, thank you, TIV,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: thanks
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: Everyone, all right, see you later.