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Interview with Teaism, Khun Gan · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:05
Hello and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:07
My name is Ryan. This is my Coho Zhongjin, who
0:10
also goes by Sam. Hello.
0:11
Hello. And we're the cofounders of
0:14
Sanko Macha Products. Yeah, we launched this podcast
0:16
to discuss our learning journey, Matcha, share startup stories
0:19
and interview experts. And this episode we have Kun
0:23
Khan from TSM to talk about his journey with T Welcome, welcome.
0:27
Awesome, awesome. So before we start Khan, can you
0:30
maybe share a little bit about your personal and also your
0:33
professional background about yourself and also about T ISM?
0:37
So for TSM itself, I started quite long time ago.
0:41
It's probably 7 years ago in Facebook as a Thai artist made
0:46
of the Facebook basis. Seven years ago.
0:48
Not many people who really study or into the Japanese tea even
0:53
much, but I, I did. So I would like to share those
0:59
learnings they get daily in that Facebook pages and about twos or
1:05
three years ago I started TSM in Instagram also.
1:10
So I was originally a content creator and I'm really like to
1:16
experience the tea more in the real world like Kyoto or in
1:22
Japan. So I decided two years ago to
1:26
study master degree in Kyoto city, which is not really
1:30
related to tea. It's about this business
1:33
administration as an excuse to come to Kyoto and now I working
1:39
in tea shop in OSB called Baisar Natamura.
1:43
Last year I also got the Nihong Shah instructor who is a
1:48
qualification in tea industry and happened to be the first
1:52
from my nation who got this. Wow, Wow.
1:56
Congratulations. Thank you.
1:58
I know that's very hard to get. It does really.
2:01
I think the barrier of language itself is quite challenging and
2:09
plus the Israeli textbook based in some way, even Japanese quite
2:17
feels it's quite hard to get to pass exam for the writing exam.
2:23
That's awesome, and it's awesome you move to Kyoto just to learn
2:26
about tea and get closer to it. It's true to tea people.
2:32
Yeah, true passion. That's yeah.
2:34
What actually what inspire you to, I guess kind of like really
2:38
dive into the world of tea and and also with Japanese tea, like
2:41
what was the original inspiration and passion came
2:44
from? So in 2017 in February, I was
2:52
studying in Osaka and had a trip to Uzi and that is time I I
3:00
drink a cup of signature and it's also the first time I know
3:06
that there is the flavor called umami in tea and that impact
3:12
bring me to what I am today I believe.
3:16
So before that I was drinking this bottle.
3:20
Japanese green tea is quite common in South Thailand as
3:23
well. And that was the first time that
3:26
I know how tea really tastes like, though in that time, that
3:32
day I bought sencha delis back home and tried to build it like
3:38
Auntie in the in the tea shop built.
3:41
And it was not really delicious. So I tried to find out how to
3:46
make it more delicious and try to.
3:50
I think he he was chasing the first experience about tea and
3:56
during the process I begins to explore more tea and more aspect
4:02
about tea. I think the process of acquiring
4:06
new impression in this journey has brought me here.
4:11
It's awesome, yeah. For a lot of people we
4:14
interview, there's always some moment where they taste
4:17
something and it's just like just forms this connection and
4:22
then like sparks a passion. The moment of conversion.
4:25
Yeah. And chasing that feeling to that
4:28
flavor. Yeah, I definitely can relate,
4:32
especially multiple teas across my journey, I think I came
4:36
across skin my child, I think I was 13 years old.
4:38
I was pretty young and I, that first sip was just so different
4:43
because I grew up in the, in the states, so, you know, as
4:45
exposed, exposed to like Earl Grey or black tea.
4:48
And it was just so different. And it was like, wow, I can't
4:52
believe what this tastes like. And in a sense, I've been
4:56
chasing chasing that feeling, trying to try new more and more
5:00
things that are hopefully give me a similar spark.
5:04
Yeah, this is the same reason why I but we have some I and my
5:09
partner in Phuket, Thailand has a little project about we were
5:14
going to make a tea shop in Kuge and we name it Shoshin.
5:18
Shoshin is mean. It's a same word mean the
5:22
beginner's mind because I would like to remind everyone and also
5:26
myself to to remember the day that we started drinking tea and
5:34
start to go into this fold. So in Zen, the beginner's mice
5:39
may means many things depends on the interpretation.
5:43
For me, when we got deeper into something always come with more
5:49
knowledge as well as bias. So in my opinion, knowledge is
5:55
something that is structured, but in Zen, if you want to be
6:01
free from bias and be being more well liberated to worldly
6:10
things, you have to be live. You have to not struck yourself
6:13
in those structure. In my opinion, the people who
6:16
know tea doesn't means that they must learning tea and being an
6:23
expert to know of to know to really know them.
6:28
It's my it's maybe some people who don't know anything but just
6:34
see that tea and that is the moment they get the real and
6:40
full experience without the shadow of bias.
6:43
That is what I think in the tea. So I thought many people who
6:50
rally into the tea, especially matcha, and they start to come
6:55
up with some, well, some beliefs about matcha even though it's
6:59
right, whether it right or wrong, I would like to return
7:02
them to to see a tea as it is. So that's why I named the
7:07
chopping book at Shoshin. It's like to return to the most
7:12
pure form of enjoyment without any interventions of the world
7:17
or things that are not directly related to tea itself.
7:21
Preconceptions. Yeah, initial instructor exam
7:26
that is writing exam and practical exam.
7:29
In practical exam we have to evaluate the TLS by washing and
7:34
also tapping. So we have to make 5 samples
7:41
into the order is one has higher quality or vision has lower
7:46
quality. And I realized that the
7:49
qualities does not always means deliciousness.
7:53
So in tea industry qualities means it has a better materials
7:59
and thus we can we can buy that tea in higher price.
8:04
I think the the ideal quality was made to to organize these
8:09
tea trading and solving problems in tea industry.
8:14
But for the deliciousness, I think it's quite subjective and
8:18
depends on people. You can enjoy the low quality
8:21
tea as long as you're happy with it.
8:23
It doesn't mean that it does not delicious.
8:26
So delicious is more something in your mind more than on your
8:34
tongue. Yeah.
8:36
That's a great way of putting it.
8:37
I love, I love that phrase. It's actually something we
8:40
talked a lot about on this podcast because like ideas about
8:44
quality might not translate to preference because I've served a
8:48
lot of people like very umami, what would be considered very
8:52
high quality matcha, at least in Japan.
8:56
And when you serve this to some American audiences or even some
9:00
audiences in Europe, like in France where I live, it's rare
9:04
actually that I think that some people who especially don't have
9:08
very much exposure to tea, that they like it.
9:11
Most people actually dislike it. Like if you take something like
9:15
a Narino that's very umami, very strikingly umami, and you serve
9:21
it to, I'd served it to some some friends here in Paris, they
9:25
didn't like it. And it's an interesting
9:28
question, especially with the matcha boom and more and more
9:32
high quality Japanese teas being exported.
9:35
I fear that the industry is too focused on traditional quality
9:39
versus other flavors that, you know, people might like in
9:44
Thailand and the United States and Europe and South America in
9:49
the Middle East and a lot of these new markets where we're
9:51
seeing this culture form. Outside Japan, people don't
9:55
doesn't always make tea with hot water.
9:59
When they drink tea, they might they may drink in a different
10:02
way and has different idea about what is the delicious tea for
10:06
their own menu. So they think tea industry in
10:09
Japan also would like to understand well, the customer,
10:15
the end users in five countries. So I don't know that some tea
10:21
shop in Uzi also start tasting the tea with milk rather than
10:29
apart from boiling water or standard way of tasting tea
10:33
because they would like to understand why end user in in
10:37
overseas prefer this match are over the Ottoman.
10:42
So I think we we're going to see many changes.
10:45
Yeah, yeah, agree. I mean, we've seen like
10:48
traditional tea houses like Holi Ishichi Mein that formulates
10:52
matcha that's, you know, optimized for mixing with milk,
10:57
which was pretty interesting to watch.
11:00
And they are clearly adapting to the new trend.
11:04
Yeah, yeah. They are one of the most
11:07
traditional producers in this town.
11:10
Yeah, yeah. Yes, indeed, very.
11:12
Progressive. Also, we're really big fans,
11:15
especially of Narino. Narino and Nario, Yeah, last
11:20
year was a big change. Because of the matcha shortage
11:23
or because of something else? So last year I was a student in
11:28
master degree about business. So I, I did interviews my
11:34
producers, seven of them in Kyoto, to see how they react
11:39
with the shortage. And it was March, so it was
11:45
before the spring harvest, which the chart case is mostly, well,
11:50
the most serious at that time. So I explored the landscape of
11:56
this industry and they found that by the scale of the company
12:01
and by the form of the business that has a different idea.
12:06
So in this industry, there is the people who grow the team is
12:12
farmers and there's people who buy the primary products, which
12:16
is what we call Aracha from farmers and didn't blend it and
12:20
go grind it into matcha. And we also do have people who
12:25
just buy, buy the matcha from this blender and sell that to
12:31
foreign market. So the scope of may varies by
12:38
the company but we start to see more farmers who has a direct
12:44
trade of the tea with the with with end user in fine country
12:50
not only but traditionally they will send the tea originally
12:54
they will send the tea to the blenders.
12:57
There is many reason for that is because the grinding process
13:01
mean a further investment for them.
13:04
So some of them the capital is limited to the production of
13:10
Russia. They can use Russia or tension,
13:15
which is a much of materials. They can use the tension factory
13:18
that is not that owned, but owned by some like common
13:22
tension factory or sometimes factory is owned by the blenders
13:26
with some bound that they has to sell that tea to that blender.
13:32
So that there's some relationship like that that they
13:35
cannot they cannot sell to the foreign country only they had to
13:41
balance this relationship when they like to when they sell,
13:46
they can sell more by themselves directly.
13:49
And the change is that when the Masha was getting popular, it
13:54
was autumn in 2024. Four.
14:00
Yeah. So it was after the first
14:03
harvest. So the farmer already sold a
14:05
tea, but the blenders was benefit get the benefit from
14:11
selling. The tea.
14:12
Stock get back from the farmer so last year we can witness the
14:17
great increase in the material of matcha because of the
14:22
shortage itself as well they don't have any tension for
14:26
finding and because of the farmers.
14:29
I feel like, I feel like they feel that they they should get
14:35
something from this mushroom, not only the blenders.
14:39
Because they sold it before the shortage.
14:42
Yeah. And even the Ministry of
14:45
Agriculture in Japan, they promote the policy to convert
14:51
tea food were growing sensor into a tensor.
14:55
So more new investor in this in this industry and we will start
15:02
to see more mature in the market even whether it's in Japan or
15:08
outside Japan, regardless of the quality.
15:13
No, it's interesting. It's an interesting, it's an
15:15
interesting dynamic as it seems like a very new business model
15:19
to either go direct to consumer to having a actual farm sell tea
15:25
to a consumer or sell tea to a brand that will then like a
15:29
Western brand that will label it.
15:32
But it seems like the wholesale system in the auction system are
15:36
very sticky because they control the infrastructure of tension
15:40
processing and the milling and issues.
15:42
So what do they think about the fact that there are very few
15:46
choices if they don't own their own tensile processing or their
15:49
own issues? Well, they're plus and minus, so
15:54
it's the best scenario for farmers that they has their own
15:59
tensile processing facilities to grind their own matcha, but they
16:05
has to mean more risk for them because they had to put more
16:09
investment on that part. And most farmers especially in
16:13
Kyoto, it's not really the large entity.
16:17
So it means they has to put a lot more effort on this, the
16:21
management on the on the tree trading, but they are really
16:26
already busy with the tea farming anyway.
16:29
So there are something that they can do and they cannot do in
16:34
terms of economically or physically.
16:38
So that is the place, the position that the blender can
16:42
come up to balance that risk. So for the blenders, last year
16:48
was a tough year, tough year for them.
16:50
I, I believe because there are many, many blenders who, who
16:56
would like to get the tensure, but the tensure is limited.
17:00
So the price increases, which means that blenders must has a
17:06
very, they have to spend more asset on the on the tea in order
17:11
to get the same quality or the higher quality.
17:15
Yeah. Ostentia and the small scales
17:20
blenders suffer the most I believe.
17:24
Because they don't have the assets to purchase versus a
17:29
thing like more. Likely to be big company or a
17:33
company that has good relationship with farmers.
17:37
Well, not all tea that was go through the auction in tea
17:42
market. So they are the traditional way
17:47
to to trade tea directly they call is.
17:51
So that's based on relationship that has built for generation is
17:57
not easy to cut and I think that is the most important thing that
18:04
they valued in that industry. We heard that this last harvest
18:10
season that because of these wholesale relationships, because
18:15
the chashi, the blunt house sets the price for the tancha, so
18:19
it's not a free market. We heard some farmers were
18:22
selling tazumi, handpicked tea to blunt houses for less money
18:29
than machine cut wazuka tea was making at auction and then
18:34
farmers weren't benefiting from the market price.
18:37
Must lead to some interesting tension.
18:39
This must be tension and yeah, we can we can foresee how they
18:46
will react this year. If the farmers has more option,
18:51
they will have more bargaining power in this market.
18:56
Eventually. I would like farmers to be more
19:01
well to get more benefit since they put a lot of effort in the
19:05
tea. Blenders can make good tea
19:09
because farmers put effort in it.
19:11
We cannot magically make a very high quality tea without good
19:16
quality materials. Material.
19:19
Have you seen any efforts coming from the farmers side to trying
19:23
to breakthrough this traditional like contract based transactions
19:29
for example like may be forming an alliance of farmers or even
19:34
their own auction houses? Like have you seen that happened
19:38
before or do you think that will happened?
19:41
There must be some alliance. And in terms of keeping
19:45
relationship, I think they will continue send the tea to, to
19:50
blenders. And they also would like to keep
19:53
their own tea to maximize the, the, the profit to.
19:59
But they don't have grinding facilities.
20:02
So sometimes they have to to pay for the grinding fee for those
20:08
who has grinding machines or grinding stone meal.
20:13
And those people tends to be blenders.
20:18
So it's kind of balance We would like like we would like them to
20:26
grind our tea. But that when they also want to
20:31
get matcha, want to get attention so special and we let
20:36
you find the team, something like that.
20:40
Yeah, well, and by son and camera really respect farmers.
20:45
But we we produce not only only essential, we also have matcha.
20:50
But we don't we don't produce this from tension.
20:55
We saw this from farmers who to produce tensha and it sells a
21:01
single origin as well. So even even by San Agora has to
21:10
have to enter the matcha market. We the by San Agora, our passion
21:17
was more about the tea leaves. Like Sancha, we do have the raw
21:24
tea leaf that is preserved by blast freezing and keep in the
21:28
freezer and every time we can defrost it and produce sensor
21:34
all year round so that our customer can bring the fresh tea
21:38
all year round as a single origin and knowing who is the
21:43
producers of that tea. We believe that with this way,
21:48
people can know more about tea, not just only this Uzi matra.
21:54
This is a macha from Jizoka. But not knowing who really
21:59
produced it. Yeah.
22:00
Interesting method. Yeah, quite.
22:04
It's very. Uncommon it's I've never heard
22:06
of anyone freezing wet leaf. If you came to by Sanakumara,
22:10
you can see the tea bars and very small scale tea production
22:14
machines right in the store and sometimes so cool meet the
22:20
produce right away. Yeah, very interesting.
22:24
Did you, I'm, I'm mostly wondering like does the freezing
22:28
process change the flavor of the tea at all?
22:31
Or if it does, like, how do you work with this kind of change in
22:36
processing? Well actually doesn't change
22:39
that much. Well, we try to minimize the the
22:45
oxygen because oxygen cause oxidization.
22:49
So it has to be vacuum sealed and some nitrogen.
22:53
It's also vacuum to to make it last longer.
22:57
And when we make a vacuum feeling, if there's too much
23:01
pressure on the TV, sometimes it's crushed them and, and make
23:07
the TV quite hard to to to produce.
23:11
So this know how is belongs to the owner of the bison governor,
23:17
interestingly. So cool it's on Uji Main Street
23:21
right? Or just off Uji Main St.
23:24
It's on the Agata Rd. the same street with Horace Mann and
23:30
Agatha. Trying OK.
23:31
OK, Yeah, we need to come we. Should visit right?
23:34
Yeah, will be there soon. Yeah, I think there is some.
23:39
There's a question about what is Uzi Masha Masha and Uzi doesn't
23:44
really. Yes.
23:46
From Uzi right Well actually term is a registered trademark
23:52
that has a definition that is can be T that's growing 4
23:57
province 4 prefectures Kyoto, Nara, MIE and Shika.
24:02
But the the process of tension processing like a sorting
24:08
blending, grinding must be done in Kyoto Prefecture with some
24:12
note that the proportion of Kyoto, the basic ingredients
24:18
must be larger than orders prefectures For example, you can
24:23
have 30% of you can a 30% of the tea that is blended maybe from
24:30
Kyoto and auto 60 can be from three prefectures like 20/20/20
24:38
and you can label that as uzumacha.
24:41
So when we buy oji matcha or oji tea, sometimes it doesn't really
24:46
from oji but they also share the same knowledge and same know how
24:52
how to produce tea. And in term of the culture, well
24:56
the way of processing tea, this has something in common.
25:01
So in certain level, I think it's OK to say that the tea
25:06
doesn't have to be from oji to taste like oji.
25:11
We've heard some mixed opinions. Some people I think wish that
25:14
Uji was protected so that you know, tensha grown in Goka Shaw
25:20
or Shirakawa or Uji City, anywhere in proper Uji should
25:26
have a protected status. I don't know what you would call
25:30
it, like real Uji matcha, something like this.
25:33
That's single origin and that everything else is more like Uji
25:38
style. We've heard many different
25:40
opinions about this type of thing.
25:42
We're curious what you've what opinions you've heard in Japan.
25:47
Both you know your time preparing for the the Nihon Cha
25:52
instructor program or talking with farmers or talking with
25:56
people in Uji. Are they happy or unhappy about?
26:00
And I'm sure there's a mix of opinions about the fact that Uji
26:04
is Uji. Cha is so vague.
26:06
There are opinions that we have heard from some blenders, this
26:10
thing that if if we include too much.
26:17
So why definition for the Uji Masha and customers including
26:25
customers in Japan expect that Uji Masha must be the good
26:29
quality and taste good. When in fact it doesn't taste
26:34
good, they will disappointed. So they're afraid that that this
26:40
broad definition may disappoint a customer.
26:44
And sometimes they choose not to label the the product as Uzi
26:49
Masha because they think that's not in the quality that is
26:54
satisfy them to to make it as Uzi Masha of them would like Uzi
27:01
Masa to be in the position that anybody can satisfy with.
27:05
So it's not really the case that they will include everything
27:11
into as and Uzi Masa that so they can select to label it or
27:17
not to and for the customer. There's many, many people who
27:23
doesn't realize that Uzi Masa is not really from Uzi.
27:27
But for those people who really grown tea in OCI don't really
27:32
know how they think about this definition.
27:36
And they might say that they are from 100% like Oji City so that
27:42
the customer can appreciate that and enjoy the tea that it's
27:47
really from Ozzy. Even in the when the tea is not
27:52
from Ozzy, we say it's from JoJo, it's from Vasuda, it's
27:56
from other part of Kyoto. But when it's from Ozzy, we say
28:01
it's from OG. Interesting.
28:03
That's great. Yeah, well nowadays you see
28:07
labels being hyper specific. Even you labeled the shading
28:12
method, if it's home zoo, if it's direct covered and the
28:16
cultivar, like whether or not it's Asahi or Uji Hikari or if
28:22
it's a Zyri, you know, 100 year old treats Zyri from from some
28:25
places. Are you seeing, you know, like
28:28
more and more tea houses in Wuji adapting to this new kind of
28:32
naming system, labeling system? And obviously you're, you are
28:36
saying that Bisa is doing all these, you know, regional
28:40
labeling for their tea. So I'm interested in knowing
28:43
like what's the current trend happening in Wujing?
28:46
In Wuji, I don't think that they're shifting into well, some
28:54
some producer shift into this way of labeling their products
28:59
because they want the products to be more specialty and the
29:02
customer to But because customer, especially in overseas
29:06
would like to know what is this Batcha, where it's actually from
29:12
and which county wise is? We are not only drink tea, but
29:16
we would like to learn about it too, right?
29:21
But in typical case, the tea is blended.
29:26
So it's quite hard to tell what is the content of the blended
29:30
because the blending was meant to maintain the same quality and
29:34
same flavor profile. But the content of that can be
29:39
adapt to reach certain quality that they pursue.
29:44
So it doesn't mean that it has to be this cultivar all the
29:48
time. So that makes them hesitate to
29:52
leveling everything in that product.
29:54
For the tea that is blended as a single origin, we cannot expect
29:59
that area is going to be the same.
30:01
Yeah, different expectation I guess between blended and single
30:04
origin product. I have a question.
30:07
What what is the process of becoming a Nihon Cha instructor?
30:11
Like what do you have to do to obtain the certificate and what
30:15
does the education entail? Is it a lot of tasting theory
30:19
mix? Is there anything related to
30:22
channel U2 or is it mostly just like tea itself?
30:25
I don't have a good mental model.
30:29
So about any Hong Shai instructor is the qualification
30:36
that was that about 27 years ago when the industry that is not
30:45
from the channel U part would like to come up with some
30:51
qualification to certify a person that has a knowledge
30:56
about T itself. So there is many qualification
31:04
in the same organization. There is a Nihonsha instructor,
31:08
Nihonsha advisor and then Nihosha Kante organized by
31:12
Nihosha Instructor Association. So for the home site instructor,
31:18
you must pass the exam is that's a 2 exam writing exam and
31:23
practical exam. If you don't pass writing exam,
31:27
you can proceed to the practical exam.
31:31
And in order to to pass the writing exam is highly
31:37
recommended to take an home site instructor course.
31:42
They will send you the textbook and some some T samples so that
31:49
you can learn about the content that might included in the in
31:56
the writing exam. To make sure that everybody has
32:00
the same standard standardized knowledge about T in many
32:06
aspects, we'd have to learn about history, about
32:10
cultivation, about the processing health benefit,
32:17
chemical substance in the tea and quality evaluation to have
32:24
to pass that writing exam. And the volume is quite we
32:29
change through years as grow bigger and bigger, which make it
32:35
harder every year. So I recommend to take it as
32:41
possible if you feel like when you pass the exam, when you pass
32:45
the exam. You don't need to retake it.
32:48
Well, yeah, you don't need to retake it.
32:50
So probably about 70% of people who take the exam well don't
32:57
pass the writing exam. Wow, wow, it's a high.
33:00
Failure rate. Wow, OK.
33:03
Because very detailed and for foreigners the most challenging
33:08
is the Japanese language itself. Is it recommend to be able to
33:15
read Japanese language as if you like Japanese person?
33:21
Yeah, in order to I saw those informations.
33:26
What would an example question be like?
33:28
You don't have to give away that test, but I'm curious what kind
33:31
of question would they ask you on this exam?
33:34
Like how detailed is it? Oh, it's come with the same
33:38
pattern actually. It has 100 questions, divide
33:43
into one. 100. 100 question Divide into 10 chapters.
33:50
You must in overall you must take over 70% of the score and
34:00
to pass it. And the question traditionally
34:02
be like which statements is wrong and every statement in the
34:08
in the question seems correct. So it has to be really details
34:13
to see you what which sentence or which detail is wrong, which
34:20
required to know everything everything in that in that
34:24
question interest. Would it be something like, you
34:27
know this cultivar was registered in this year in this
34:31
place and then it gives like different cultivars or like is
34:35
it like very hyper specific knowledge or more like general
34:38
theory questions? Oh, it's very specific.
34:41
Sometimes you have to remember a number, like how many for
34:46
example. About this we recall well.
34:49
How many like tonnage of tea being produced in a county like
34:54
in a specific? Year how many specific year, how
34:59
many percent of tea that's being explored to a country or OK,
35:07
well, I don't. Think it's.
35:09
Specific, but it feel like that's specific.
35:14
OK. Interesting.
35:15
Wow, a lot of memorization. I don't think you're going to
35:19
pass that exam again if it has to take again.
35:22
What is the practical part? Is it a blind tasting or is it
35:26
brewing tea or what? What is the?
35:29
What are they evaluating in the practical section?
35:31
There's five thing you have to do in practical exam A four of
35:35
them is about evaluating tea. You will have all of them are
35:41
sencha and you will have to find trays of sencha like unrefined
35:51
sencha and you have to tell which one was harvest first and
35:58
which one was hours later and make that into order by washing
36:03
and touching. And you have to do the same
36:06
thing with the blended sensor and define which has higher
36:11
quality and make that into audio 5.
36:14
And you also have to cupping to do the cupping of sensor arasha
36:21
to see which has the quite higher quality than an order in
36:26
the order, which means if you make one wrong answer, the order
36:32
must be wrong too. Well, yeah.
36:36
It's like check up here actually the first one is quite easy
36:40
actually. It just you have to tell what
36:44
type of T it is. There's a 10 type of T is the
36:47
most easiest part though that's some some tea that can be quite
36:53
similar like Cabo Secha and Gilgro.
36:56
And that is interview exam too. They will they will ask you some
37:02
question and you have to ask question about tea and you have
37:07
to answer it as an instructor who supposed to be able to to
37:14
explain and instruct people about tea.
37:18
For example, if you have to build tea for for someone who
37:23
could have sleep problem, how would you which tea will you
37:28
build it or how you build it? How would you describe guilt
37:33
road to finance something like that?
37:36
Quite easy one. What is the other two levels?
37:38
Social instructor is the hardest one and for the advisor it will
37:45
be more less intense in terms of the content and there is a
37:51
writing exam only for the nihongsha Kante.
37:54
The no laser includes will be more compact compared to
38:02
Nihongsha advisor exam. And you can also take this
38:07
online too. And then we'll create you like
38:11
Nihosha can take EQ and EQ San Q grade 123.
38:15
It depends on how many score you get in that exam.
38:18
And for Nihosha advisor, if you take the Nihosha instructor
38:23
course and complete the report which reads a certain score, you
38:29
can apply for the Nihosha advisor without having an exam.
38:34
OK. OK.
38:36
Genius. Yeah.
38:38
Do you know if they're going to offer it in English anytime in
38:41
the future? I have heard a rumor 2 years ago
38:46
that they are preparing for them English version but I have never
38:50
see. Oh I wish the main.
38:52
OK, I, I hope they there's hope. Yeah, there's hope, Ryan.
39:01
I would, I would love to learn. And it's very hard to get
39:04
reliable knowledge in English because a lot of the content
39:09
marketing, a lot of the knowledge is content marketing
39:13
where someone's trying to sell you tea and then you have to
39:16
split the difference. OK, what do I believe?
39:19
What might be exaggerated? Where did this person get the
39:22
information from? It's like a big research project
39:25
just to know what to believe. It's.
39:29
A huge task. Yeah.
39:35
How would you like? So you're originally from from
39:38
Thailand and we, we love Thailand's matcha scene.
39:41
We have been there 3 or 4 times just to learn about matcha and
39:46
to learn what businesses are doing there.
39:49
And it's a we actually think it might be the best place in the
39:52
world to learn about matcha as a product because there's so much
39:56
knowledge and people can describe it to you and like
40:00
objective terms. Compared to like walking into a
40:03
retail store in Japan where usually the person doesn't know
40:08
very much about the product, How would you compare now that
40:11
you're living in Japan in Kyoto and working in Uji, How would
40:16
you compare and contrast the the Thai matcha culture and
40:21
appreciation of it against the the Japanese culture of
40:25
appreciating matcha? It was Japanese.
40:28
The way of appreciating Russia is quite different from how
40:33
people outside Japan, including Thailand created As a
40:38
foreigners, we appreciate appreciate it as a drink or as
40:43
an ingredient. So we would like to know exactly
40:46
what how to evaluate this ingredient and how to use it.
40:53
So there's a lot of people in Thailand pay pretty much effort
40:58
in the learning about which water would be the best pairing
41:02
with the surface specific tea or with what kind of the match
41:08
itself, to which country wise, how it was grown and what is the
41:13
best way to make it in each manual.
41:16
Even for latte, what is the best ratio for doing things?
41:20
This the how the order of making much latte could affect the
41:26
taste. But we can't see any of this in
41:29
Japan. I think it's because they
41:32
already have the traditional way to to enjoy matcha as a part of
41:38
Shanoyu, which doesn't really come with the idea of which
41:43
country why it is or how it was highways or when exactly it was
41:48
highways in the spring, autumn, something like that.
41:51
So they enjoy tea and altar, altar element in tea room too.
41:58
And because of that, not many shop in Japan are doing matcha
42:04
in the same way that foreigners are doing other country doing
42:10
for Thailand. The field of matcha can be
42:14
something that is more than a cup of ususha.
42:18
Well, we do have many people who enjoy ususha especially who want
42:23
to enjoy the tea as it is. We also build matcha with
42:28
coconut or with other local ingredients as well and put
42:35
matcha into another interpretation, which I think
42:40
it's with. It's quite interesting to see.
42:44
But in Japan though, they have some structure, idea about how
42:49
much ideas people, young people see Masha as something that is
42:55
quite old, traditional and being enjoyed in people of Shenoyo.
43:01
So they don't see it as a modern drink of beverage.
43:05
That is the big gap, I believe, yeah.
43:07
That makes sense. Interesting.
43:10
You recently did a talk, I mean working with the famous author
43:14
Hideki Kawabarasan, and he's obviously the author of the
43:20
famous book. Great book by the way.
43:23
I'm not like, as you know, in depth in the knowledge of
43:27
Japanese language to read the original version, but they did a
43:30
translation into traditional Chinese and published in Taiwan
43:33
and I was reading that fantastic book.
43:36
What is it like? I'm always curious about, you
43:39
know, you know what, what what is Kawabala sound like in
43:42
person? And can you maybe share a little
43:44
bit more about, you know, his background and you know, how
43:48
much do you know about him? I I met Mr. Kuwabara last last
43:55
year in March for an interview for my own research.
43:59
So I don't really know him personally that that much, but
44:05
Kuwabarsa is very interesting people and very certainly
44:10
knowledgeable. He loved to share knowledge and
44:14
everything he knows about tea and he don't really care about
44:19
how people in the industry would think if he's stayed that way,
44:24
which is a great good thing. Mr. Kuwabara has new book,
44:30
actually last year it's not really new book.
44:34
We usually publish his articles in the magazine called Cha or
44:40
Tea published by a federal of tea industry during this 10 or
44:52
20 years. I don't have that book right
44:55
here. So he just conclude that article
44:59
into one book with with very extremely detailed about tea,
45:07
cincha and matcha. It is the original taste that
45:14
later become become the famous vocabulary.
45:18
I recommend buying it. Interesting.
45:20
It's a compilation of his works. Very cool.
45:23
He and his family owns a tea shop, right?
45:26
Yeah, he he is a tea blender. He has his matcha, the penta
45:31
processing factory in Uji, but he doesn't have his own farms,
45:38
so he saw his team mostly from Kyoto, and he has his own policy
45:45
to use only the cultivar that's originated from Uji.
45:51
And he keeps telling everyone in Kyoto that Kyoto should position
45:57
itself as a producer of high quality tea with the tea that
46:03
only have in OG which is OG rooted.
46:06
He really has about the quality. Makes sense.
46:11
That's great. I think quite a mixing, even
46:14
other producer in Kyoto feel like they must produce a high
46:18
quality tea because Kyoto is very small.
46:23
So we do know that Kawashima is the largest producer of Pensha
46:28
in terms of the amount. So Kyoto cannot compete with
46:33
Kawashima or Chisoka for the scales.
46:35
So the only way is quality. And when we see Japan overall,
46:41
they don't have vast land like China.
46:45
So if they would like to produce Masha competing with China, they
46:50
have to come up with something that has the quality that only
46:55
Japan can produce. It's a stretching way of
46:58
thinking about how what to produce as Japanese makers of
47:04
Masha. That makes sense.
47:06
And so sort of is one last question and all of your
47:09
research and talking to all of these people, what are some of
47:12
the most exciting things about the tea landscape or the matcha
47:16
landscape that you've seen or learned about recently?
47:19
Well, I think the most interesting things that I have
47:23
found by from interviewing them is that all of them do not adapt
47:29
to foreign market. They're not don't really feel
47:32
that they has to adapt between markets.
47:36
We don't feel that they have to make it organic.
47:40
The organic cultivation is very hard in Kyoto because it has
47:43
limitation for the lands. Even though they can't export it
47:48
to Europe, if they have organic tea, they feel like that they
47:56
already know how to produce Masha in a proper way.
48:00
They don't want to change that the being themselves and try
48:05
their best to adapt with the demand, for example, for
48:09
increasing grinding capacity. But for the farming, there's a
48:14
lack of manpower in this industry that includes farmers
48:19
well. So no one expect that we're
48:21
going to see more farmers in Kyoto.
48:25
So they just try to, well, protect what they already have
48:29
been doing for years. I think systematic slow change
48:32
is not that bad. If they change too quickly, too
48:35
fast and you know, the whole world decides that macho was
48:39
just a trend and they moved on to something else, it wasn't too
48:43
much over investment. I think it's important to keep
48:46
some traditions too and move slowly.
48:49
I think there's some some merit in that and maybe they won't
48:52
catch as much opportunity as, you know, people doing more
48:56
innovative things like like new cultivars that are grown, you
49:01
know, in places like Kagoshima or you know, other higher volume
49:05
places that are more innovation forward, especially with regards
49:10
to technology. But it's it's nice that you have
49:13
both like, I think we need that. Yeah, well.
49:17
That's an interesting perspective.
49:19
Yeah, it's a interesting what has his own tradition.
49:23
Tradition to to produce A-Team and I think it's better for
49:27
Kyoto to keep what they are already good at.
49:31
But at the same time, we can see the more development in terms of
49:36
the farming technology or processing technology as we can
49:41
see in Kalushima, even the the tension, the tension processing
49:46
right now in Kyoto, we usually see the the big structure on
49:53
like. Yes. 10 Shard dryer right on the
49:57
Belk conveyor that's invented just 100 years ago or less than
50:03
that. Yeah, it's.
50:04
So in history it's great, pretty short.
50:07
It was an innovation. So I'm quite open to any
50:12
innovation that can improve the quality and can help farmer to
50:18
to make the world more easy. Yeah, that makes sense because
50:23
even Ishiyusu were all hand hand turned 100 years ago.
50:28
This idea of having a room of Ishiyusus with a lot of air
50:33
conditioners is actually quite a modern concept too.
50:38
But it's quite modern in the old in the old way they have hand,
50:44
you know, it's usually right, which is much smaller than than
50:50
what they already they currently have in factories.
50:53
So we can expect that the matcha 100 more than 100 years ago or
51:00
200 years ago might taste different and the count you are
51:06
too. You know, I have read books
51:10
about almost the same K tissue reading and that is some phrase
51:15
a sentence that described about Croatia.
51:18
His book had written in 1955 and the the master of Omoty Senke
51:30
say that Croatia is the T that's picked from 120 years old three
51:39
and Ususha is picked more than over 50 years old of 30 years
51:45
old tree so. Interesting.
51:49
The farming must be very different from what we have seen
51:54
now, so well, Kilzo has his own. Here it's the opposite.
52:00
Yeah. Because nowadays tea farmers
52:03
only want young trees. We heard that after 25 years,
52:07
some farmers RIP up the trees and plant new ones, right?
52:12
Interesting. Surprised to know that too.
52:14
Interesting indeed. And it was all the time, too.
52:20
This is a question that I've been wondering because we talked
52:24
to some Ujimacha farmers and it sounds like around the 1970s,
52:30
all of these very traditional plots of land with tea on it,
52:35
they transitioned from Zyrai to cultivars.
52:38
And something I worry about is genetic diversity and protecting
52:43
the genetic diversity. Do you know if people saved the
52:47
genetic material of all of these Zyra fields?
52:51
Like even like maybe like Okonoyama tea garden, right?
52:55
At one point it was all Zyra and now I don't know if it's
52:58
Okonoyama cultivar or Narino cultivar, but at some point they
53:02
tried to make the transition to remove all this old trees, Zyra
53:07
and I. Do you know if anyone saved
53:10
those genetics as farmers were transitioning?
53:13
Strictly speaking, to save all those genetic diversity 100%
53:21
they have to. They have to keep all thyroid in
53:24
the past because thyroid means it's a mix of different
53:28
varieties. And when you turn a tea farm to
53:32
to a single cultivar, it's mean that they all feel be gone and
53:36
anywhere that has the side right tea tea farm that's one would be
53:41
remaining as a genetic heritage. So at least go though prefecture
53:48
tea research might have this genetic heritage in their own
53:53
plantation because they are working on the cultivation
53:57
developing or the must has many cultivars including thyroid as
54:02
well. But yeah, it's quite rare to see
54:06
the thyroid tree in Kyosho and Oji.
54:09
Does anyone still have it in OJI?
54:12
Within OJI proper, are there any thyroid fields?
54:16
OK. There's thyroid field because,
54:19
well, I can give the name exactly, but OK, no worries.
54:24
Yes even in Oji City. I just had a sancha that's made
54:30
from sideline tree in oji. The sancha in Oji is is pretty
54:36
rare by itself because people only make matcha nowadays.
54:41
Yeah, we have heard about that like.
54:45
Yeah, we heard there's only one farmer doing Sancha in actual
54:49
OJI. Is that right?
54:50
Or is there more than one doing Sancha in OJI proper?
54:54
Only no one. Interesting.
54:56
So all Uji sencha is really not from Uji at all, except with I
55:00
guess this very rare exception. It's very, very rare.
55:03
Interesting. It's very interesting.
55:07
Well, thank you so much for your time.
55:08
We we learned so much and we really appreciate it.
55:12
Yeah. Thank you.
55:13
Thank you for having me today. I appreciate it.
55:17
Our pleasure. Yeah, See you soon.
55:19
See you soon. And thank you to our listeners
55:22
as well. If you enjoyed this, please
55:24
consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you on the next
55:26
one. Thanks.
55:27
See you in the future. See you.