Latest / Mythic Mind Games / 31 - Oblivion Chat: Martin Septim, Oblivion Crisis, Mehrunes Dagon

Transcript

31 - Oblivion Chat: Martin Septim, Oblivion Crisis, Mehrunes Dagon · Mythic Mind Games

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, kind of talk to some Oblivion now that
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: we're moving beyond Morowind. Now, this is a game that
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I really enjoy, and I think it's it's unique in
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: that compared to Morowind as well as Skyrim, in which
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: in those games your character has this kind of chosen
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: one trope about it, right, they're never you're the dragon born.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: What's really unique about Oblivion is that the story is
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: not really about you, right, Like your job is secondary.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: You're helping the would be emperor to fulfill his role
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: in saving Tambriell, essentially, and I kind of like that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: that it's a different kind of virtue. It's not the
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: virtue of it mind, task to save the world, but
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: my task is to save the world by helping this
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: other guys save the world. And I think that requires
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: a different kind of virtue. And I feel like there's
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: something that appreciate that really separates out, not just from
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the other Elder Scrolls games, but really from most role
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: playing games, right where you are not the center, and
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: I think that there's something very healthy about that, that
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: you're tasked to live for something beyond yourself. So that's
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: kind of my opening thought. But there's a lot more
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: to develop out of that. But I love to just
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: hear about your experience with Oblivion. I mean, how long
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: have you been playing, or you know what stands out
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: kind of wherever you want to throw out some initial
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: thoughts here. Let's see, Tyler, you wanna take it first?
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Sure, so I play. I mean, Oblivion was my first
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: game I played in the Elder Scrolls. I played it
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: well as I I was in high school, so I
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: didn't really have the patience for these kinds of games
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: at that point in time. I was very much into
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: the Halos and the Call of Duties at that time,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: so this was just like a fun little venture into
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: something else for a bit. But you know, there was
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: there was something that kind of grabbed me first playing
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: the game in high school, I was like, there's something
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: different about this, like this is this is cool, There's
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: something here, But I just never really got gave myself
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: kind of the patience to really drive through. I kind
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: of barreled my way through the main quest. I was like, oh,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I beat it. There you go. It's done, without like
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: any other exploration of anything else in the game. And
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: so then later just kind of after playing Skyrim, and
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, these games have so much more to offer.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: So then I you know, you go back and play Oblivion,
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: it's like the world opens up. But yeah, it's really
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: just a yeah, it's iconic in so many ways. I
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: mean it there's so much you know, as I've kind
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: of posted the discord, some of just the memes of
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: like just the goofy dialogue, quirky, there's so much quirkiness
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: in it. But it's it's almost charming now going back
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: and so and then now just like diving deeper into
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: the actual world of the game for the first time,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just yeah, it's just mind blowing.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: So anyways, it's kind of an exceptional story to say
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: that in your first real play you barrel through the
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: main story. I mean, who gets the main story? Ind
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: but that's the game. Yeah, it always takes me a
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: long time to eventually find my way over to the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: to the main story. But cool, I'm glad that you
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: were able to to backtrack and realize what this game
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: has to offer. Cool Ian, tell us something about your
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: experience with this game.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Uh, so, oh golly, my experience with this game was
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: you know, actually, it's kind of funny tyler to your point.
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: So I picked up Oblivion, Well, it was kind of
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: like it was kind of shown to me by a
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: friend and I I picked up Oblivion while I was
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: waiting for Halo three actually to come out. That was
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: kind of my in between game, you know what, I
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: you know, between between Halos two and Halo three. But
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: that that definitely Oblivion was definitely my obsession. It's probably
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: the game, the Oblivion, the Elder Schools game I've played
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: the most, you know that I've put the you know,
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: they put the most hours into the one I'm more
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: you know, the one I'm most familiar with all that stuff.
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: It really blew my mind at the time because I
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: had never seen an open world personally. I had never
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: seen an open world game before, and at that immediate moment,
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't know that more Wind existed. That came, That
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: came a little bit later, but it was just I
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: was I was absolutely taken in with the world. I
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: was taken in with like every single city, like every
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: every NPC had a every NPC had a name, they
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: had a personality, they had like a sket like a
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: day schedule that they followed. It kind of reminded me
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: of like Majura's Mask in that way, if anyone's I
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: don't know if anyone's played that or knows what I'm
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: talking about. Legendis Zelda Majura's Mask, where everybody had, like
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: all the NPCs had like daily schedules that they followed.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: Oblivion was just like that, the crime and punishment system. Uh,
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: just like there was just there was a there was
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: a there was a lot of depth. Uh. I felt
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: at the time, you know, in Oblivion such as you know,
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: such as it was, and in some ways, in some
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: ways it still is. It's it's weird because it's like
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: it feels like there are things that Oblivion does that
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: not even uh not even Skyrim U does, especially with
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: like you know, the the in depth of the NPCs
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: that kind of makes the cities come just that little
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: bit much more alive.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely a well in a sense, it's a
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: stuff into realism compared to Moro in which is I
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: think is more. I mean there's more depth there overall,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: in more and I think each of these games gets
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: a little bit closer to the surface level, right, But
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: at the same time, I mean, having things like the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: immersive schedules and that sort of thing that adds a
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: touch of realism to the game is definitely a step forward,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: even if we're getting a little bit more superficial in
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: some areas. It's like that me and I pushing the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: discord about you know, all the bear quest where for
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: for Moro win, You've got like this whole journal entry
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: about why you go kill these bears gets a little
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: bit shorter for Oblivion. And then but when we get
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: to Elder School six, just bears.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: That's all it is. We got, we got the cinematic trailer, Like,
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: how how many years has it even been at this
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: point since we got that cinematic trailer.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a while. I don't know.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: It's like it's it's been so long they're not doing anything, man.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so's it's Yeah, it's definitely it's an immersive experience.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: And I remember when when it came out and I
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: was just blown away by the graphics at the time.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Which it's kind of funny looking back at the original
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Oblivion with the potato heads, like, oh, looking back, it's
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: not great.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: But those faces are so bad, you know, it's really
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: wild because actually, like so like a I used to
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: follow like this computer guy, and he was he would
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: he was stretching out like the meshes the textures in
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: the Oblivion game, and I can't. I wish I could remember.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: I wish I could remember the dimensions, but like the
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: terrain had several orders of magnitude more textures than the faces,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: which I think were like really like really simple, like
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: I want to say. I want to say, like the
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: textures for like a rock were like, you know, a
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: thousand by a thousand or something like that, and then
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: like the faces were like thirty two by thirty two.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: It was crazy.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: Jacob, tell us a little bit about your experience with Oblivion.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Sure, well, I've always been an RPG adventure kind of guy.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: My dad used to do a you know, like pen
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: and paper adventure games that he would write for me
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: to play through and everything. And I actually found Marrowin
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: first because a cousin of mine was playing it on
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: his Xbox, and then I played it later on PC,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: and then after that, like two years later, I found Oblivion.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: And you know, as much as I loved Marwin, Oblivion
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: just it had so much more well, it had the
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: living world aspect, you know. It felt like a living world.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: You know, Marrowin had the depth, like you said, but
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: it didn't have the you know, it didn't really feel
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: like in a live world like I was saying. And
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: you know, I just I over the years, I've created
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: more characters than I can count in that game, and
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: I've done probably every quest at this point, you know,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: I'd say, my favorite thing to do is to just
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: go through the main quest ironically, and Shivering Ales of
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: course is one of the best, you know, expansions of
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: it all of all time, I would say, And yeah,
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: I just you know, one of the things I love
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: about that game honestly is the world, which or the
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: aesthetic rather A lot of people at the time, you know,
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: complained it was generic fantasy and all that, but personally
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: I thought it was downright gorgeous at the time, even
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: when I even when I was playing on my first
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: laptop that I had, where I could couldn't even play
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: with you know, a far draw distance or anything like that.
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: Everything was on bare minimum and I still only got
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: like twenty fps. It was awful in hindsight, but I
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: still enjoyed it. But yeah, I just I love the
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: the fact that it's personally, I love the fact that
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: it's more quote unquote generic fantasy because at the time
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: I was really big into the Lord of the Rings films.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: Not that I'm not now, obviously I am, but but yeah,
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: it just it felt like me being able to actually
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: live out those fantasies that I always imagined whenever I
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: would watch those movies and kind of like self insert
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: myself into them. So yeah, I guess that's probably the
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: main thing I would have to say about that game.
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: And you know, of course the DLCs are great too.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolute, Yeah, we'll be focusing on the DLCs
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: next week. But yeah, shivering Aisles, I agree. It's it's
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: my favorite DLC expansion of the whole series, so I
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: definitely look forward to getting to that. But yeah, I
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: think that there's some common ground here and that we
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: all recognized, especially at the time, like how immersive this was,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: how much it was a lived in universe, and so
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: much of it felt real, And I feel like there
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: are a lot of great worked out quest lines, even
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: side quests. Someone mentioned the discord how the Dark Brotherhood
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: in particular, I think real he Shines in Oblivion. I
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: don't know, shines is the right word for the Dark Brotherhood.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: But it's just it's so creative, and you know, it's
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: it's it's interesting. And so you can definitely see their
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: attention to detail that, you know, even in the side
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: quests or to some degree, perhaps even more compelling than
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the main story, as much as the main story does
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: have to offer. And you know, I will say another
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: point of distinction for Oblivion that I didn't really fully
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: appreciate when I was younger, when when the game first
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: came out. I just mentioned the discord that really, historically
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: my go to character for all these games has been
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: some kind of stealthy assassin villain slash anti hero type.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: But going back when I play these games now, I
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: have much more of a moral center. I don't know
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: if I've just developed a better sense of morality in
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: real life or not.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: But.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: And and Oblivion like it really does feel rewarding to
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: be a good guy as your task is to basically
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: fight off the demons and shut the gates to Hell
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Like it has a like a doom like quality to it,
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: where you know you are putting the world back into
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: order in a very clear, a very morally, very theologically
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: charged sense. And so that's something that I really appreciate
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: appreciate about oblivion. I feel like in all these games
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: it feels the most fulfilling to me, at least two
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: be the good hero. And I don't know, I think
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: that's something I've learned to appreciate more than I once did. Well,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: maybe we should talk a little bit about the main
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: structure of the main story. So in just as a
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: brief recap, basically the Emperor dies at the beginning, He's
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: assassinated by the mythic Dawn, and so then that is
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: setting up the stage for the Oblivion crisis, because it's
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: only when the Septum and please correctly from getting any
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: of this wrong, but the Septums in wearing the Ambulet
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: of Kings gifted by acotash In and pass that that's
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: what it is, basically holding back the force of oblivion, right,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: And so you know when the institution of the Septum
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: dynasty is in peril, right, that's when things that the
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: fabric of the world essentially is at is exposed to
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: the forces of oblivion. And I think that it's kind
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: of interesting that in a very like historically grounded sense,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: it seems to me like a pretty strong conservative position
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: in the sense of showing us the value of the
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: monarchy of institutions, right, that it's when the most fundamental
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: institutions of society are at peril, like that's when the
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: world itself is at peril. Like, institutions matter, governance matters.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: And so this is very much focused in on the
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: importance of the person who is in charge, who is
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: thereby representative of the people who are in their charge.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not a strictly a it's not a
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: very democratic kind of story, right, It's everything hinges on
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the emperor, and so your task is to help to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: kind of guard the institution. And so I don't know,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I find that very interesting, But I would love to
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: hear some of your thoughts, whether they're along those lines,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: are totally different, Like what would you say is the
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: sort of some of the main themes of oblivion and
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: it does not have to directly relate to what I
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: just said.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: So does anybody else want to say anything?
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Go ahead?
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I so I think broadly speaking, I think
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: you're you're more or less spot on Andrew in your
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: observation with that. It's very like the thing that struck
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: me about this story of Oblivion in particular is that
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: it has a very it has a very revenantial like
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: feel to it where you have like you know, you
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: know kind of like kind of like how like you know,
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: so like you know, God makes his promise with Abraham,
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: right you have Acotash making his promise to Saint Alicia,
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: who will become the first uh first emperor, and you know,
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: you know so so so long as they so long
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: as they you know, they keep the dragon born emperors,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: they keep the Amulet of Kings, you know, which is
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: you know what you know, which is uh, you know
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: basically this this this this binding to Acotash. Essentially they
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: are you know, they are free from basically chaos and
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: you know, chaos and destruction. And then you you even
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: have like this, really you have this really interesting thing
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: that happens at the end right where uh spoilers, uh
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: you know, uh, Martin Septim sacrifices himself by shockingly like
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: you know, he destroys the Amulet of Kings and he
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: becomes this fire avatar of Acatash, fights Marin's dag On
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: the Prince of Destruction, defeats him, and then basically dies
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: and becomes this statue, and like the statue itself becomes
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: the new kind of like the new covenant, the new barrier,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: like you know, there is you know, you know, so
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: where once the sacrifices were required under the Mosaic law,
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: now you have like it's like, oh, you know, now
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: we've we've moved on from the sacrificial system. We've kind
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: of had this one life giving sacrifice once and for
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: all that now kind of guarantees the protection of the
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: emperor or the empire, and it moves and it kind
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: of like moves on from like you know, you don't
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: you no longer need like an amulative kings. You don't need, uh,
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: you know, a constant relighting of the dragon fires. You
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: don't need to make sure that there's this dragon born emperor. Uh.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Martin kind of does this this perfect work once and
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: for all time to say to save the empire. And
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: I always I always found that really striking. There's a
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: very like the more like, you know, the more we
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: dig into this, it can be a little more you know,
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: you know, there's more nuance. It can be like a
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: little more complicated than that. But like on its head,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Oblivion's main story is very has a very like crystological
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: uh bent to it.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's interesting and very well said that,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: and that goes along with you know why I said,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: it feels like perhaps the most theologically charged game where
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: it feels right to be a good guy because you
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: are set up in such staunch moral terms. And you know,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that christological connection that you brought in here.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's that's really interesting. Damiel Tyler, do you anything.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, nothing to add per se, but other than
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: just yeah, I mean that that connection sounds really interesting,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: and you know, just thinking more about the just you
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: can see it through the pure aesthetic of the game too,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: where there is a lot of medieval high fantasy in it,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: and you know, even just with the look of the
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: monks and the look of the blades and you know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: all these different features of it, you can really see
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: it leaning into you know, a more chivalrous time, you know,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: And and so being a knight in this kind of
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: game feels more in line with where it's pushing you,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: and so playing something else it does kind of feel
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: like awkward in many ways, but I I know, we'll
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: kind of keep progressing along the story and get into
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: some of the the you know, the villain esteems, the
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: darker themes of it, but from just like the perspective
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: looking at the Christology fears of Martin, but also to yeah,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: because you look at the way that the emperors over
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: time ruled. It's so messy and there's there's always this
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: like constant, like just combatantness of what does it mean
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: to be a good emperor in a way like you
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: have this figure of Taalos of tyreceptim of this like
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: dude who conquered in the most brutal ways. And then
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: on the tail end you have and it is in
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: a sense to be a divine. But then you have
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: this Martin guy who like it comes from nothing, you know,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: it comes from nowhere and in the most humble way too,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: like he has to has to go through his own
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: trials and whatever is to get there. And it's such
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: a different picture of what you would see as like
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the perfect emperor, just in the same way of like
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: looking at you know, with the Jews and you know
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: the Israel expected of their Messiah, they expected this conquering hero.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: But here comes this, you know, this this preacher, this
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: humble guy and having to be sacrificed. You know, there's
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: a sacrifice there, and that's not what they expected. And
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: in the same way, like, what do you do you
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: expect from Martin? I expect to blow everything up and
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: he's the emperor.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that that is a good continuation of this christological
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: theme that we've been seeing here. And you know, we
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: see that he is somebody of great strength. But as
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: you're talking about you, it's it's a different kind of strength.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: This is not a go fourth and conquered strength. It's
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: a well, it's a good fourth and conquered evil strength,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: which requires a different kind of strength that that humble
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: sacrificial service, which is the only kind of strength that
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: is actually going to stand against the forces of Hell
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: which are seeking after a power. You have to be
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: willing to let that power go. That's good. That's good.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Do you think to add Jacob or or Christoph here there?
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I just was going to add one thing to
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: Tyler nailed it about what I was going to say
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: about the difference between Tyer Septum or you know, Tallos
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: and Martin. But something I find extra interesting about that
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: comparison is that when Martin goes to sacrifice himself. He
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: sacrifices himself in the temple of the One Tallos. The
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: temple's roof blows off, which I see could be kind
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: of a parallel to the curtain and the temple being
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: torn when Jesus was on you know, on Golgotha, and
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: it just, you know, when you do look at it
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: that way, it's kind of crazy to see the parallels,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: whether they were intentional or not, it's it's kind of
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: cool to interpret it that way, for sure, because like
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: you can kind of get a little bit of a
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: not really I don't know if it would be a
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: lesson per se, but it can kind of make the
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: game feel a little bit more person small to you
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: and your faith if you interpret it that way. But yeah,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: that was basically I was going to add.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I have no reason to think that
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: the writers were trying to tell a Christian story at
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the same time, they're trying to tell a good story
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: that's obviously set in a world inspired by medieval Europe,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: which obviously is a Christian world, and so you know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know how much was theologically intentional, but just
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: in telling that kind of story, if you're going to
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: do it, well, it's going to have Christological themes built
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: into it, whether you are doing that intentionally or not.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, as Lewis often says, that, you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: all all good stories echo the ultimate story, the good story,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the story of the Cosmos, whether they are trying to
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: or not, or justin Martyr right, that seeds of the
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: log auths are spread throughout the world, and we, as
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: God's image bearers, can't help but to imbibe that. And
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: so in our dreams and our imaginings, even in our
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: miss making, there are these echoes of the true story
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: that are there just because we are part of that story,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: whether we know it or not. And so again, I
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: think when you're especially when you're explicitly telling a story
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: that's inspired by medieval Christian Europe, there's themes are definitely
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: going to be there in a pretty profound way. If
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: they're not, then you're not really being true to your
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: source material.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: See.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: But I think these are excellent things to bring out here.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And you know, I was just thinking that as I
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: was looking a little bit into the Ambulet of Kings,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: kind of where it came from, exactly what it is
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: you as is often the case, in the Elder Scrolls,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: there are some conflicting accounts regarding exactly what it is,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: where it came from. You know, it doesn't have Is
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: it made with the blood of Acotash himself? Is it
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: made with the blood of Lorcan You know, there are
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: some different takes on that, and I really like the
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: idea that it is totally attached to that it comes
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: from Acotash and from his own blood, you know, Akotash
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: being the Goda of time, who really, by by virtue
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: of that identity, I mean, he is what provides stability
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to the world, which again just continues this these Christological themes.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Even as Christ is the word in whom all things
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: are held together, he is the one that provides stability
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: to would otherwise be chaos. You know, That's why John
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: begins his Gospel, you know in the beginning was the
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: word in rk Henhole lagos, which that lagos idea is
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: idea that goes straight back to ancient Greek philosophy, where Heraclitis,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: this pre Socratic philosopher, notices that like everything in this
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: world is given over to change, we live in a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: world that is fundamentally chaos, except there's one thing that
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: doesn't change, and that's the process of change itself. And
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: so well he famously said that you know, you can
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: never step into the same river twice. Well, he also recognized,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: but the river also moves in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And so you know, it's like a word is the
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: smallest form that provides meaning. Well, the word is that
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: which does that for the entire moving cosmos, which is
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: given over to chaos. Well, that's kind of the role
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: that akotash serves here. And so I like the idea
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: that it is acotash and providing stability, that that holds
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: off the chaos of the Dadra, which are you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: very much attached to the chaos of Patama if you
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: take that back to the source there. So so we're
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: back into this order chaos dynamic here. So just just
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: another dimension of this christological analysis that we're thrown out there. Ian,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: what's something you have from your list?
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: What is something I have from my list? I've got
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I've got like thirteen tabs open, and there are still
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: some tabs I'm looking for that I'm struggling to find
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: the I guess, I guess to your I guess to
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: your more immediate point. I'm actually so I think so
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: so you you I love I love the the cohesiveness
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: of like the picture that you're painting right with kind
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: of with the with Aktash and the Amulet of Kings
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: and everything. I am kind of on the I am
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: kind of on the side of uh. Unfortunately, as far
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: as that goes, I'm on. I'm kind of on the
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: side of the Emulet of Kings is the Blood of
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Lark and there they're there, like there is there, there
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: is something really interesting there. Like so uh, Michael, like
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Michael Kirkbride, Uh, he wrote this, Uh, he wrote kind
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: of like this. This this Fifth Era fan fiction sort
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: of after he left working after he left a Bethesda studio,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: is called Coda, and it's kind of like this. It's
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: kind of like this where weird kind of like Fifth
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Era in times where uh uh Vivek and his partner
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: are kindind of running around well just it really just
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: very trippy insanity is happening. It's very weird, typical weird
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: Kirkbride stuff. But there's actually this really interesting pick. I
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: might be misremembering this and getting this completely wrong, but
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: I want to say there was that there was a
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: moment where he meets like Acotash, and it's kind of
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: like Akatosh and Lorcan have kind of like a Janis
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: thing going on, like where they're kind of like it's
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: kind of like like two face. It's kind of like
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: two faces of the same person where it's like, you know,
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: they see Acotash, but they also see Lorcan. And even
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: though they kind of they're looking at Acotash, he's got like,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: you know, a gaping wound in his chest where his
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: heart used to be, like Lorcan is and Uh, I
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: don't know, it's it's it's an it's an interesting image
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: that uh I think about a lot when it comes
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: to Acotash and kind of like that whole uh Lorcan
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: dichotomy whatever, Like there is a like there there is
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: a story of Alicia in h in the Song of
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Pellanol uh and it's it's very interesting because like when
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: you read like you when you read like the Amulet
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: of King's book, I think it is it it's that
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: story that you talk about. It's it talks about how
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: uh Akatash gives Alicia his blood u basically making her
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: dragon born, kind of giving you know, establishing the Covenant
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: and then he gives the Ambulet of Kings. Uh, but
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: you have It's what's weird about it is if you
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: look at the Song of Pellanol, which is kind of
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: this uh, this this really quintessential story in the early
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: in the early narrative of the history of the Empire,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: where at this time the you know, there is no empire.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: You have these aliad elves that are enslaving and rutalizing
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: humans and basically anything that is an elves and this
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: and the story kind of recounts how Alicia which is
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: not which is not her actual name, by the way,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: her actual name is lost of time. She's gone, she's
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: gone by like several different titles. But uh, it's interesting
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: how when she's when she when she's crying out for mercy,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: you know, kind of like you know, kind of like
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: the slaves in uh, you know, the the Hebrew slaves
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: in Egypt. You know, they're you know, they're crying out
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: to God for mercy and deliverance. When Parif is excuse me, Alicia. Uh,
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: she's first introduced as parap But when Alicia is crying
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: out for mercy, she's she's speaking to it says she's
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: speaking to the handmaiden, who is actually Kinnereth or Pine,
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: which in the Nordic pantheon is the wife of Shore,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: and she kind of so she's invoking kind she's invoking Shazaar,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: who goes missing. And then Kaine answers her prayer by
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: sending her kind of her Demi, God's son Murray House,
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: who who is like this man Bulb. And then you
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: have this other You've got this other night called pell
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: and a White Strake. But it's really interesting how like
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: in the Song of Pellanol, Akatosh doesn't really come into
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: the picture until much, much, much much later. I don't know,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: it's it's an it's an interesting little uh, it's an
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: interesting little contradiction. I don't know if it's a contradiction.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: You know, they're they're there, but there's there's like a
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: hole in the story. You know, we're kind of we're
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: we're missing some details. It's not like, you know, we
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: don't have a full picture what's kind of going on there.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: It's complicated whenever we deal with anything Elders rolls lore
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: because they're trying to make it realistic in that there's
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: there's not a straightforward take on exactly what happened, and
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: so that's said philosophically. I like that acotash stuff, but
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: what would actually happen. I don't know. I don't think
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: we're supposed to really know what leads you to adopt
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: that sort of account, that that Lorcan centric account.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: I've got a poem. Uh, it's very it's a very short.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Oh well, it's called Kimmel at a ball a ballad
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: when Akatosh slew Lorca and he ripped his heart right out,
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: hurled it across Tamrael, and the heart was heard to
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: shout red diamond, red diamond, the heart and soul of men,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: read diamond, red diamond, protect us to the end. The
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: laughing heart sprayed blood afar a gout on SyRI. It
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: fell and like a dart shot to its mark. Down
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: in an aliad, well read diamond red demon, the heart
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: and soul of men, Red diamond, red diamond, protect us
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: to the end. Magic effuse, Uh, the Lorcan blood to
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: crystal red and strong. Then wild elves cut and polished
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: it down to Kimmel at a ball. Well.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you put it into poetry, then it
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: must be true.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: It must be true. It rhymes. It rhymes, it must
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: be true.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: That's why I.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, so I guess, so I guess to
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: keep it. So I guess to keep it uh uh
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: as simple as I can throughout all of the history
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: of uh humanity. Right in the in the context of
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: the empire, uh Lorcun is a figure who comes up
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: just again and again and again and again and again
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: from the mythological stories of them ripping out his heart,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: you know, and then they can't destroy it, so they
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: shoot it across the sky. It creates red Mountain, A
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: drop of blood goes into the iliad well that becomes
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: the amid the Kings. You've got the famous line, this
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: heart is the heart of the world, for one was
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: made to satisfy the other. You have the fact that
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: like tyber Septim himself seems to kind of be like
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: a reincarnation of Shazzar uh on on some level. You
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: can argue that uh. And there's like these there's like
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: these popular theories and interpretations that a lot of player characters,
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: not every single one of them, but a lot of
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: player characters are reincarnations of Cazzarre as well. You've got
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: uh the fame, the famous Knight to Oblivion history pellanal
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: White Strake who when he is claimed to be uh
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: a chazerine. Uh, he apparently had a red diamond in
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: his chest in place of a heart, as the saying goes.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: And when he was when uh, when he was declared
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: to be a chazarine, he was smothered by moths. Uh.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: That was kind of that was kind of a strange
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: little thing. You've got more house the man bull and
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: uh Hellanoal are constantly referring to each other as ada,
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: you know, which is you know, kind of like the
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: word for you know, God or gods or demi gods
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: or you know whatever. They refer to each other as family.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: They refer to each other in like immortal immortal ish terms. Yeah, yeah,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: I will. I don't think I was. I don't think
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I was one hundred and ten percent prepared uh to
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: uh lay this argument out point for point. But uh, my, my,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: my understanding of the imperial history and the law has
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: always just kind of like again and again and again,
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: has kind of taken us back to the Lorcan connection.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: It doesn't stop acotash from being central to everything that's
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: going on, because there's no de dying that he is,
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: especially you know, especially in Oblivion, especially in Skyrim. Shoot
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: in Skyrim, he's fighting himself. It's crazy. But uh, that's
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: that's kind of the unscripted adhd spiel.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: No, I mean that's helpful. Maybe, I just I don't
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: think I fully come to terms with exactly who are
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: what Lorcan is is, like what his significance is or
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he is seen as something of a
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: hero to men, but I don't know, me, I don't
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: think I've fully come to terms with like what he
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: is as a enimination of chaos, right if you follow
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: his point of origin what I don't know what his
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: value is and I don't know what what I don't
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: know if maybe you could elucidate that for me, I mean, like,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: what what's the best way do you think to view Lorcan?
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: What is the best way to view Lorecas.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: That's a super vague question.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: It's that's that's that's a hard question that Elder Scrolls
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: fans have been debating for decades at this point to
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: this very day, and I don't know if anybody has
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: a straight answer. So there's a very very popular theory
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: that you know, Shazar is you know, so, yeah, he's
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: the hero of men. He's the uh you know, oh,
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: you know, he's he's the he's the champion of men
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: in that way. In in that way, there's there's almost
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: kind of like a there's almost kind of like a
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Promethean view of him. In that sense, there's a you know,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: there's there's a theory that uh, he was basically like
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: there there's a there's a there's a Plato in the
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: cave theory basically where you know, all of the you know,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: all of the other gods are you know, sitting in
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: their cave contend to look at the shadows on the wall,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: and lor Con was the one who went outside the
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: cave and came back and tried to tell everybody, and
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: you know, you know, then they killed him. You know.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: That's again, that's just that's you know, that's an interpretation,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: that's a theory. Uh. But it goes along with the
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: idea that uh lor Con. Basically people say that Lorcan
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: did everything that he did so that men would have
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: a chance to ascend. Basically, and everything that's happening in
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: the story and everything that he is doing is all
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: part of basically a divine plan to rescue men and
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: ascend men, and it's like all this very very like
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: good natured stuff. On the other hand, you have, like
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I was reviewing some I was reviewing some material for today,
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: you have like some people. And the person in particular
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: in particular that I'm thinking of is the YouTuber I've
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: mentioned before, Kofo, who's got the seven hour Crazy video.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: But he said something that he pointed out in his
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: video which I thought was really interesting because I hear
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: the Lorcan as good guy thing all the time, and
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: he points out, we've got three very questionable people that
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: that praise Lorcan whenever lor Con comes up, like the
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: VEC praises Loarcan. Uh uh, it's let me think it's
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: the VEC, it's Boethia and uh, I can't remember the
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: third one. It's it's it's it's it's brought up basically
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: in the context of in the context of syness. So
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: you have like you have like these three extremely oh
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: Menkar Cameron, duh, you know, he's where where we were,
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: He's he's only the most one of the most important
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: characters in oblivion. I feel so dumb. But Menkar Cameron,
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Vivek and Boethia, like praise Lorcan in just the most
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: dubious ways, and it's one of those things that kind
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: of makes you stop and the and it's a really
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: good point that like, you know, you know, like you know,
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: Cotho is not trying to burst anybody any anybody's bubble here,
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: He's just kind of pointing out, you know, this is
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: something that we got to consider. So it's like, there
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: doesn't really seem to be an answer to the lore
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Con question, and that seems to be that seems to
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: be kind of the point. I've always kind of looked
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: at Lorcan in the past and fairly positive terms, but
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: at the same time, I've also always been kind of
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: kind of an adress stand at the same time too.
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: So I.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: Wish I could give you. I wish I could give
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: a more satisfying answer. I feel like, in some way
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: or some form, the truth has to lay somewhere in
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: the middle, because within the context of the world of
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: Elder Scrolls in its history, I feel like the Elves
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: kind of have a point with their theological worldview, but
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: I don't I don't think, you know, I think the
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: you know, the the men have their their points and
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: their reasoning as well.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: My biggest hang up with Lorcan is that, well, it's
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: really I hang up with some of the underlying philosophies
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: of narcissism or whatnot, that they're built into the world,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: and so maybe I just need to get out of
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: my head and get more into the world to assess
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: exactly what his legacy or ongoing influence should be. So
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: maybe that's the least part of it, because he does
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: have definitely a Promethean kind of heroism to him. But
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: the problem is, I don't know that Prometheus is a hero.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: It's it's like one of the it depends on how
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: you interpret that, Yeah, because it's I don't I don't
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: like you can see him as a hero, you can
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: see him as not. You know, It's it kind of
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: it kind of goes both ways, right.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: It kind of comes down to the questions of, Okay,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: are the gods inherently just that's the broader philosophical question
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: that we to deal with. And I mean in the
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: world of the Elder Scrolls, I mean, well, not necessarily
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: in terms of Howard defining gods, I suppose, but yeah,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: interesting to to bring it back more specifically to oblivion.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Are there any other aspects of the main story that
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: we needed to address.
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: I do, but I want somebody else to speak first.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: Well, I was just gonna say one thing about that
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: we were talking about the philosophical aspects of Lorcan and
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: all of that, just real quick, I was just gonna say,
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: the way I view him is the way so like
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: if you look at how you know, you have an
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: and Paame Ano beget a new el, a new el
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: begat Oriel and Ariol as the the Altmer or the
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: Altmer perception of Acotash. I kind of view that on
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: you know, Lorcan is kind of that on the Padame side.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: And then also just real quick about the I was
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: gonna say something about the Red Diamond imagery, just very
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: quick thought that probably doesn't lead anywhere, But has anybody
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: ever thought about the possible symbolic mirror of the red
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: diamond or imagery with the Sacred Heart of Christ imagery
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: and Catholic mythology, because like, you know, you see that
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: in a lot of well a lot of art throughout
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: the years, and I'm wondering if maybe that has some
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: sort of parallel. But that was just a yeah, just
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: a quick thought that probably didn't lead anywhere.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough. I mean as far as the theme stuff,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: and I think that and in the the world that
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: we're working with, it definitely does seem like the powers
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: that the capital P powers are operating, especially like in
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: the eternal sense, you know, outside of Munda's that at
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: that point we're beyond good and evil in the sense
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: that we use it. I feel like the Elder Scrolls
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: law itself is pretty explicit about that that once you
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: get outside of this temporal sphere, we're not dealing with
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: the same kind of morality, or maybe even were not
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: dealing with morality at all, Like that's something that happens
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: within this sphere. And that is obviously a major contrast
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: with say the Christian position that being is fundamentally good
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: because well God is and God is good right, and
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: so goodness and being go hand in hand, whereas I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: don't think you can necessarily say that about the Elder
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Scrolls metaphysics, that you can't necessarily say that Anu is
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: good and Padame is not right. They don't necessarily exist
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: in those terms. And I think that once we get
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: that kind of settled, it becomes easier to see Lorcan
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: as a hero because he he is.
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: A a manifestation of a manifestation of patame of chaos,
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: and I guess within the Elder Scrolls universe that's not
• 44:00
  Speaker 5: necessarily a bad thing.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: And so you know, if we're adopting their metaphysics on
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: the broader scale that wants to get down into the
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: narrow scale of how things are appearing in this temporal world,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Well now it's not so clear cut as order is
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: good and chaos is bad. And so I guess that
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: leaves room for this agent of potential chaos right to
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: be a heroic kind of figure as he manifests himself
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: in this temporal sphere. So that's just my own working
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: through howerships understand loc On in real time.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess the way that I see it
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: too is just is what is needed as movement, and
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: and so in a way to like seeing lorec On
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: is like this agent of moving the story along, you know,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: because in many ways, like you can see, I don't
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: know where I heard it, but it was the empire
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: had gotten stale, and so we need the mythic don
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: to do something because this is getting pretty stagnant.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: The people are just kind of it's almost the idea
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: of that disenchantment. The world is losing enchantment. There's no
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: anything going on, and so now we need a cataclysmic
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: event to really get people bolstered up and back on
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: their track again.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that framing of movement. I think it's important that
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: the elves aren't fans of Florcon because they don't like movement, right,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: Movement is what got them to where they are now,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: in this devolved sort of state, or this corrupted earthly
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: kind of state, whereas they see themselves as basically kin
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: of the gods, where you know, the kind of state
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: of being that they ought to occupy, right if weren't
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: for this the limitations of this material world of Mundus.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: And so it's movement that got them down to the
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: state of corruption, whereas for men, it's movement that gives
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: them opportunity to rise from the earth in the direction
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: of ascension, toward the direction of transcendence. And so it
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: makes sense that this agent of movement would be a
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: patron of men, whereas the elves would not like him
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: very much because he stands for this movement for a transition.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: And I find kind of interesting that the elves of
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: the Elder scrolls. They have this longing to hold on
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: to what once was, very much like Tolkien's Elves, right,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: we're going to hold on to what once was. What
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: we don't like is this idea of fading, of things
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: passing away. So there's an interesting connection there.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: I also find it interesting how men Car Cameron himself
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: is an altmer, but yet he's the forefront of leading
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: mayern Stagon's charge on Tamriel during the game. You know,
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: it's just it's kind of an interesting contradiction there, And
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I know he has his motivations
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: and everything, but it's just very interesting how he's part
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: of the very race that wants to return things back
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: to the way they were while also leading the charge
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: to change tam Reel or Wenern rather to something completely different.
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: It's kind of just an interesting contradiction there.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure why, but there seems to be mancr
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: Cameron is very is very, very weird, and there seems
• 47:27
  Speaker 3: to be one of the things that's kind of going
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: on with him. So if you know anything about his genealogy.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: There's actually a book in the game called The Refugee
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: that you can find and read and it kind of
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: talks about very very briefly, kind of the the origins
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: of his birth at least. But if you know anything
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: about mancar, which you know that he's not even strictly
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: necessarily an ultimate, I mean he is he's actually like
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: he was born a Bosmer. He was born he was
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: born a wood Elf to Woodulf parents, and he he
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: becomes he becomes like an Altimer, and he talks about
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: it in the he talks about in the in the
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: commentaries of the Mysterium Zarxies that he writes his Uh,
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: he speaks very vaguely about his transformation, and uh, there
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: were uh, there were fans that were also asking Michael Kirkbride,
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: who was the creator and the writer for Marker Cameron
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: and the commentaries, which is it's very much like the
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: Lessons of the VEC two point zero, the like the
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: commentaries are. But fans were asking Kirkbride, Uh, oh, so
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: why is uh why is Cameron and Altimer? Why is
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: he able to read the Amulet of Kings? And Uh
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: the answer that Kirkbride gave basically was he used uh
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: the Dadrik artifact Marron's razor to uh like basically like
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: transform his body into an image that into an image
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: that he wanted. There's also kind of like the the
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: Aliad theory one of So one of the weird things
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: about the Aliads compared to most of their other kin
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: is they were they were Dadra worshippers, and they were
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: particularly fond of a really nasty Dadra like Dagon and
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: moleg Bell, but also Meridia, who's kind of like a
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: fallen angel of light go figure. Uh, But they they
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: liked the weird nasty Dadra and uh, if you notice,
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: uh make our Cameron's uh the pocket world that he
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: creates for himself using the mysterium Zarxies. Uh. It's it's
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: an image of kind of like a recreation of Aliad
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: society as it was before it was, you know, destroyed
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: by Alicia in her slaver vault. So the there is
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: this really popular theory that what he's actually trying to
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: do is create like an Aliend revivalism of of sorts.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: That's again, it's a theory. It's compelling. I think it's
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: compelling theory. I don't know how much, like I don't
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: know how much of a foundation it has to stand on,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: but there, you know, there is there is enough data
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: there to support the idea.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Kind of going back to like just how power could
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: be so seductive, you know, because he it's almost like
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: it's a continuation of like this, I'll transform myself, I'll
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: transform others, and now I'm going to transform it all
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: and and and just this constant building up of power,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: building up of whatever, and and and then losing so much.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, because there's so much of and there's hearts
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: and snippets of the commentaries and and you know, his
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: powerful speech as you're walking through Paradise and all that stuff,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: and it's just like there's snippets of it's like you know,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: and then it's like, oh no, because it's just that
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: twisting of what could be true, and that just completely
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: losing whatever piece of him, like I said, was that
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: wood elf in the beginning. He's completely lost all of it,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: you know. And I just find that transformation just really
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: interesting thinking about this just what power can do to you,
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: because in the same way with like the VEC two
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: or it's just like what power does he like, what
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: is your mind?
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: Then?
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? And what's happening? What is the
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: fruit of what you're doing? There's just there's nothing good
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: there anymore.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: It's just yeah, yeah, mak Our Cameron is very much
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: kind of like uh and to to Andrew Snyder's point
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: when he was released his video on the thirty six
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: Sermons of the VEC and you have kind of like
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: that kind of like that mo that more like uh,
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: postmodern idea of kind of like you know, kind of
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: like a recreating yourself. I would actually say it's kind
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: of like a kind of like a like a hyper
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: Enlightenment kind of idea, kind of like the like a
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: hyper a hyper individualism that kind of stems from like
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: the Enlightenment movement of kind of like the you know,
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: just kind of like the the absolute utter uniqueness of
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: the self. And uh, and if you're not happy with
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: that self, then you can completely like can mold it
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: and recreate it, even in terms of violence and all
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: of the imagery that Menker Cameron uses in his commentaries
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: when speaking of his own transformation and his own coming
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: to enlightenment is actually a very very violent one. And
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: it's one of the it's actually one of those things
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: that kind of like it's one of those things that
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: actually kind of gives more context for what he's doing
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: in his paradise where he's torturing all of his followers
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: followers because he's so he's got he's got the line,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: he's got, he's got like the scripture that he quotes
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: from the Zarxies where he talks about, you know, the
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: the week will be winnowed, you know, the week and
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: the timid will be winnowed. And he's kind of he's
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: he's he's torturing all of his father followers, you know,
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: not just because he's some evil jerk dude, he absolutely is,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: but he's got this very very messed up view and
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: understanding of the six walking Ways, you know, the philosophical
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: ideas within the context of the Games world on how
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: to achieve enlightenment and basically like you know, the UH
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: I think in particular for him, the the the walking
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: way that he's trying to follow is the uh Cigek Endeavor,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: which I believe is it's his own messed up version
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: of the cigec en devor the cigig endeavor. It talks
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: about a lot of things. One of the ideas is
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: basically kind of like uh, you know, you know fake
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: you know, facing pain, suffering, trials, adversity that just kind
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: of like naturally come up in the world as a
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: result of living in like a broken world and coming
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: out the other side make our Cameron seems to be
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: like artificially accelerating that by you know, you play the
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: game and he's you know, dunking his followers and Paradise
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: and lava and stuff like that. He's and again like
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: he speaks of his own ur he's he speaks of
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: his own like his own personal enlightenment and and like
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: very very disturbing, violent imagery. And he seems to be
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: forcing that on uh, he seems to be forcing that
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: on everybody else. It's a very like, you know, he's
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: a he's a he's a very messed up dude.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: And ultimately that Enlightenment individualism, that the emphasis on the
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: individual self and the postmodern I can just be whatever
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I want to be. It's a direct line, right.
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah yeah, And like, uh, like really quick,
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: the thing that I wanted to say that that I
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: forgot to mention was the thing that he's shilling, the
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: thing that he's promising, uh, you know, after kind of
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: like addling his head trying to read you know, you know,
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: may Roon's you know, Crazy Book was uh most uh,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: everything that he's basically shilling in the commentaries is you
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: can reshape your reality. Are you not? Are you? Are you?
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: Are you downtrodden? Are you not happy with your lot
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: in life? Are you not happy with who you are?
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: Are you not happy with how your life or how
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: the world has turned out? I am promising you the
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: power to literally shape your own reality. So we were
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: kind of talking in the discord about like that that
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: really uh kind of that that fun line, uh that
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: he dropped about, uh, myth myth kind of being I'll
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: just I'll just pull it up on the actual pull
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: it up here on the actual page. He says, once
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: you walk the it surrenders its power to you. Myth
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: is nothing more than first once unutterable truth. Ponder this
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: while searching for the fourth key. But that whole thing
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: myth is, that whole thing about myth is nothing more
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: than first once unutterable truth. And I think I like
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: we were talking about how that seems to be kind
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: of like a like a very brief and abrupt phrase.
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: But what was uh, what was the thing that you
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: said again in the in the in the discord, Andrew,
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: after you first read that, Yeah, what I said.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: It sounds like he's relating myth to kind of our
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: primordial like our our unconscious desires right the first once
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: the things that we want without even necessarily consciously recognizing
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: that we want them, right, that the things that we're desiring,
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: the things that are moving us, and and you know
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: that're right there. And that's that's an idea you can
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: find in you know, in scripture about how you know,
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: we're led by the heart and the heart's deceitfully wicked. Right,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: we don't really know what it is that we want
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: or you know, you can look at this in Carl
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: Jung for sure, where he talks about the unconscious, right,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: our unconscious motivations that are that are pushing us in
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: ways that we can't fully even articulate. Well, this seems
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: to be kind of how he here is using this
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: word myth. Now, what would I say that he where
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: he goes wrong in potentially a diabolical sense, certainly a
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: self constraining sense, is when he says that myth is
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: nothing more than first once. I can accept that your
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: first once are somehow tied to myth, But I would
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: say that it's because we fundamentally live in a myth
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: laden cosmos. Like ultimately, what myth is is it's a
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: story that transmits meaning. Like that is really what a
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: myth is most in the broadest sense. You know. Even C. S.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Lewis says, and myth became fact, he says, is, And
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: I love that. It's just a throwaway line he doesn't
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: elaborate on. He just says, it's not the sky itself
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: a myth, and then he's kind of moves on without
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: explaining what that means. But the point is, like we
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: live in a story that is full of meaning, and
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: all the various myths we're talking about, like the ancient
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Greek and Roman myths or whatever, or just good stories
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: of today, like they the reason why they resonate with us,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: The reason why certain myths have been told again and
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: again and again throughout time, throughout different cultures, is because
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: they're telling us something true, something about the way that
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: reality fundamentally is, something about what human experience fundamentally is.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: And so a good myth, well, it's a working out
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: of something that's happening internally within the human soul. And
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: so what I would be willing to say is that
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: our first once are derivative of the myth that is
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: human existence, which at that point are our first ones.
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Are those primorial desires are they're they're meant to drive
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: us into a broader context beyond ourselves, whereas he makes
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: it more self containing, where the myth is what I
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: want and that's what I'm going to impose upon the world,
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: rather than how do I discover the true myth, it's
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: I'm going to impose my myth on the world around me,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: reshaping it accordingly.
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: And so it's a matter of where we're going to
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: that direction of myth.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah, that was very very good spiel. By
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: the way, the thing that so I was reading through
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: the commentaries recently actually kind of like in preparation for tonight,
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: and when you you you so, you made you you
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: made your comment, You've expanded on it much more in
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: a wonderful way.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: The uh. But the the thing that I was kind
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: of looking at it because it's like, yeah, it's like
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: because initially you said, he seems to cut the thoughts short,
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: and like I would definitely agree with that on the surface.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: I was flipping through the pages and I think in
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: the context and you touched on this yourself. I think
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: in the context what it is kind of a throwaway line.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: But like the larger point that he's trying to make,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: in context of everything else that he is saying is
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: basically basically he's talking he's basically he's talking about like
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: your deepest desires, right with kind of like he's he's
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: tying on on some level, he's tying with with your
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: deepest desires. And basically, like you know, kind of what
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: he's saying all throughout this is well, he's got he's
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: got this, he's got this crazy idea that and again,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: like you know, for anybody who thought that talking about
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: lorc on a lot in Oblivion was meandering, it's actually not.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: It's the core to everything that mancar Cameron's about, you know,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: make our Cameron is arguing that basically, you know when
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: when you know, when when he read the Mysterium Zarxies
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: and it fried his brain. Okay, basically, Uh, the the
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: the the impression that he took away from it, uh,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: from what he from what he Maroon's Dagon was trying
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: to say, was that, uh, in his mind, the great revelation,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: the great twist, was that Tamariel was just another plaint
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: of oblivion and that lore Con was It's dadric Prince
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: and the Adra were basically the false pretenders who betrayed
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: and murdered lore Con so they could take his realm
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: for his self, for himself and themselves excuse me, And
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: that's why you know, Tamariel is a battleground for God's
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: basically all the all of the time, and Mayroon's dagon
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: will you know, deliver Tamariel back to a state in
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: which it is truly meant to be, in which it
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: uh truly belongs. And he's saying that in doing this again,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: coming so coming back to the myth is nothing more
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: than first once part in doing this, Uh, He's basically saying, Okay,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: like we do this and you know, yeah, we like
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: you know what I what I mean when I say
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: this is, you know, we can make you. We can
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: make the reality you want. You know, we can make
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: your desires become the new reality. That's basically kind of
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: like what he's promising, what he's shilling. I'm just gonna like,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: you know, murder you and dip you in lava over
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: and over and over and over again. Because that will
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: lead to this enlightenment, I promise guys.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it very much reminds me of in the
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Screwpape Letters, where we see how all the demons want
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: to basically consume those who are under them, and then
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: they in turn get consumed by those that are above them.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: And so you know, when you live in this well,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: as Lewis calls it, that the lower archy, right, it's
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: supposed to the hierarchy, the lower archia of hell, that
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: ultimately everybody is just out for for power. And so
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: what it sounds like enlightenment, what sounds like liberation is
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: ultimately a way of getting actually more power over those
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: that you're claiming to liberate, right, It's a way of
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: consuming them while promising them a more expansive reality. And
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: so this is exactly what he's doing to his followers.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: And of course he in turn is me. He's ultimately
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: he is consumed, his his soul is is consumed by
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: the one that he follows that has promised him such liberation.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Like, and I don't like, I don't like, you know,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: I don't think he's like twirling his mustache like ha
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: ha ha. Like you know, I'm gonna, like, you know,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna, like, you know, trick everybody so I can
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: torture them, like to reiterate like he believes, he believes
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: what he's shilling, like he thinks the horrible things that
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: he is doing, even to his own followers, is for
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: you know, their own good, Like you know, that's you
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: know that that's that's kind of like how that's kind
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: of how deep the rot goes.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Right, And that's that's again bringing back to Lewis. I mean,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: he's that's one of the most dangerous things you can have,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: is you know, a tyrate who is operating for your
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: good right, because well, I mean that very rarely is
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: actually going to be for your good, regardless of what
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: their intentions may be.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: One of the interesting things actually about this I actually
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: really I mean when I first listened to all of
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: this when I was a kid mankar Cameron spiel like,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, it just sounded, you know, it just sounded
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: like gibberish. It was like I had no idea what
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: he was talking about. I didn't really I didn't know
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: anything about the Low, I didn't know anything about lor
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Connor anything. These were all just names, you know. I
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: knew about the I knew about the Nine Divines of course,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: because they introduced those in the game right off the bat.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 3: So whenever it got to any more Gods, it just
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 3: felt like everything just felt confusing and contradictory, and you know,
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: just kind of it just felt like the story was
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: turning into a just kind of like a muddy and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: consistent mess. And in some ways, in some ways that
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: is intentional, but in this particular case, it's one of
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: those things. And this is actually something that I think
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: is kind of a failing of the story of Oblivion,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: which is compared, especially compared to Morowinds. So you were
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: talking about, like we were talking about how like in
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: more the story of morowind everything is brilliantly woven together,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: Like the narrative is taking you through the history of
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: you know, it's taking you through the history of Vardenfell.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: It's taking you through you know, and why that matters,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: you know, it's it's it's telling you the story of Lorcan.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: It's telling you the story of how the Dunmer came
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: to be. It's telling you the story of what happened
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: to the Dunmer and you know, and how the you know,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: who the Narrow, who Narravar was, and the tribunal and
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: day got there and all like you know, and it's
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: like all of it matters. It's all like it's all
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: tied into the culture of Moro Wind and you know,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: and their people and their traditions, the houses, the politics,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: like it's it's it's one of it's one of those
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: like just like brilliant. It really is, like Morowind really
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: is a masterclass in writing interesting lore that is relevant
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: to everything that is going on, and you know all
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: of the story's guideposts. Make sure you pass through every
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: single one of those major beats so that you get
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: all of it and you understand how everything makes sense.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: And oblivion oblivion opts for a much more simple approach,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: which is as far as the main story goes, which is,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: you know, you're the doom guy and everything kind of
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: fall everything kind of falls away at the expense now
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: being the being the doom guy and oblivion is awesome,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: but it comes at kind of like the expense of
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: just the depth and the richness of the Elder Scrolls
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: of the Elder Scrolls world, because the Empire's history, lore, culture, philosophy, theology,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: like it's all there, it's all fantastic and brilliant. It's
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: just it's not really put forefront in the story at all.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: And if you especially if you can certainly not to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: the degree of that of Morowind, and if you put
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 3: it next to Morowind, it almost feels non existent. So
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: you're just you're being the doom guy. And then all
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: of a sudden you meet this mank Er Cameron guy
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: who is Vivic two point zero, and he's got the commentaries,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: which is the less the thirty six Lessons two point zero,
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: and it comes across to the player as just absolute nonsense,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: and all of just kind of like the weight and
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: the significance of the information that's being presented to you
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: is something that's just going to be lost on like
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: ninety percent of Oblivion players, you know, that weren't coming
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: from Morowind and have like a deep intimate relationship with
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 3: with the Morowind game. And I think there's something I
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: think that's I think that's a shame. I think it's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: a shame that we don't get a sense of the
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: depth and the weirdness of the Empire in the same
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: way that we got a sense of the depth and
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: the weirdness of the people of arden Fell and how
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: it all kind of and it all comes ben, how
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: it all comes back to Lorcan.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that was a really good analysis I
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: and that's in large part what I meant when I
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: said earlier on that, you know, each of these games
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: gets a little bit more superficial, right where you're not
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: quite as immersed in the deep lore of the world
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: that you get in morrowind. I mean there's some of
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: that in Oblivion. I would argue there's even less of
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: that in Skyrim. In Oblivion, I feel like the highlight
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: is just the experience of being the doom guy, but
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: you are missing that that depth of lore being interwoven
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: in the things that you're doing. Is there anything else
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: from Oblivion that hasn't been mentioned or that you feel
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: like we should develop for they're in this conversation for anybody.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: Well, just going back to what we were talking about
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 4: with the chivalry aspect and the medieval aspect. You know,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 4: the idea of the player, of course being the doom guy,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: as you guys said, or a knight or whatever. You know,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: that that's you know, of course, the central theme of
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: the game. But I also find it interesting how when
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 4: you at the end of the game, if you don't
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: do all of the quests to help close the oblivion
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 4: gates outside of the cities, you don't really get a
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: whole lot of help at the Battle of Ruma, and
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 4: even the Chancellor, Imperial Chancellor himself, he refuses help because
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 4: he's got too many things on his plate outside the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: provinces and everything like that. And I think that that's
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 4: also just going back to the whole theme of being
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: very chivalrous and everything. It kind of incentivizes the player
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: to do those quests because it's not just a matter
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 4: of having a few NPCs that get killed within the
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 4: first five minutes. It's more about, you know, getting that
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: sensation of actually being that guy that goes out and
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 4: is the chivalrous knight trying to help, you know, protect
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 4: the entire the entirety of Syricville itself, and not just
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 4: going through the quest to do the quest. I don't
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: know if I made any sense with what I was
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 4: just saying.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: There, Yeah, it makes sense. Is a good point that
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: taking the time to i mean, to fulfill your role
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: as hero and to do service to others and ultimately
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: makes you stronger. And I think that there's a very simple,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: straightforward lesson to be taken out of that that I
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: mean has you know, as I tell my four year olds,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: like if you want good friends, you need to be
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: a good friend. It's that simple kind of idea that
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: service to others is ultimately going to make you stronger
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: because well, now you have more powerful people around you
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: who are going to be there for you as you've
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: been there for them. So very simple lesson, but profound one. Nonetheless, Yeah, well.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Then you can see that conflicting with man Cars whole thing,
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: you know, where it's like you see the the service
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: of the hero of Sira Del, you know how he's
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: just going around doing stuff and help people out, having
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: a good time. Yeah, unless you go down the dark
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: brotherhead and then you things the get a little a.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Little shady at that point, you know.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all right. But it was just seeing the
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: inherent selfishness of what man Car is trying to achieve,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: and and just you know that that brutalist transhumanism, the
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: arc that he goes on, and and and then it's
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: just yeah, because bringing out that ultimate moment of the
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: Battle of Bruma is yeah, it's extremely satisfying, you know,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: unfortunately limited by the technology of the time, just imagining
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: what it could be built these days of seeing the
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: different you know, guardsmen and heroes of the various of
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 2: the various city he's coming together to do this, you know,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: and even just like hearing Martin's speech at that point,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: like it's you know, having him becoming the hero at
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: that point. Is is also just a really cool story
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: the storytelling aspect of it that you see this once
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: again the two hero and the villain differences and it's yeah.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: Good moment.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And if you think about it, of course,
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 4: Martin had kind of a troubled past with the Dandrich
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 4: cults and everything, so it kind of ties in as
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 4: a full circle moment, you know, kind of not really
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 4: a redemption per se, but it's it's him coming through
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 4: the things that he suffered through and struggled with to
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: become the leader that he was supposed to be. And
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 4: then like you said, it ties in with Nankark Cameron,
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: who you know what did all he did and had
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: a very warped perception of, you know, everything he was doing.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's good good foil and I don't
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: don't want to anyone off. Is there anything else from
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: this game that anyone wanted to mention?
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: So there is? I know we were talking about DLC
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: next week. There's one DLC actually that I want to
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: talk about is a horse armor. Uh how did he know?
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: How did he? How did he? Uh? Uh no? Uh?
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: And it and it so it ties in what everybody
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: else was saying about Nightly Virtue un Knights of.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: The Nine.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: Uh really really short DLC shockingly important one. The big
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: thing about the Knights of the Nine DLC is that
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: it like basically is kind of like one of our
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 3: first expansive, in depth looks at the early history of
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: the empire and how it was formed and how it
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: came to be. Because we get the story of Saint Alicia,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: we get the story of her champion ellenor White Stray,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: the Starbound Night, the star Bound Night, the star made night,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: U with the U with the uh, the the red
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: diamond in his chest. I wonder what that red diamond
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: could be? You've got you know, mora House the bull
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: uh And basically kind of like and You and the
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: Song of Pellanal is basically this this story of basically
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: a doom guy. Right, Pellanal is his own his own
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: dune guy who runs across siradill ripping and tell tearing
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: h elvin slavers to shreds and also sometimes kage because
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: they have pointy ears so they must be elves. Right. Uh.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: There's actually some parts of the story that are very
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: very that are very brutal and grim and not terribly
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: uh nightly like so much so that Alicia has to
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 3: make intercession to the gods like for forgiveness, and then
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: Pellanol has to atone whenever he has like his kind
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 3: of fits of rip and tear madness. Uh. But uh,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: but it give but it gives you, But it gives
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: you kind of like that story and that history of
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: kind of where the empire came from, and you get
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: this fun you get this fun little quest of you
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: basically have to you're collecting all of the the pieces
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: of the armor. And as you're doing it, Pellanol's armor,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: excuse me, and as you are as you're doing it,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: you are completing like all of these really cool You're
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: basically going on this grail like quest of nightly virtues,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: and each god has got like you know, each each
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: of the Adra that you you know that you kind
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 3: of go on pilgrimage for has like a different kind
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: of nightly virtue that you have to do in order
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 3: to get that piece of armor. There's a lot about
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: the Knights of the Nine that is very like is
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 3: very like Arthurian in that way, and it kind of
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: and it like uh and it it commits wholesale to
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: the uh, you know, to the knightly idea. And just
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: as just as Saint Alicia is kind of the person
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: who's making the covenant with Acotash, and you know, she's
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 3: the one who kind of forms the empire and Pellanol
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: is her champion, you have this really interesting parallel or
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: echo where you know, Martin is the one who's kind
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: of like, you know, bringing the empire back from the
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: brink of destruction, and you know, you have the champion
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: of Syriadol who is her champion, her advocate, who are
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: his advocate? Who? Excuse me, I'm getting the characters you
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: know mixed up. You know, you know, you're you know,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: you're fighting in Martin's name, just as Pellanol is fighting
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 3: in Alicia's name. Uh. And then just as you know,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: Acotash gives Alicia, you know, the Covenant, Martin, Uh, you know,
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: fulfills the Covenant, like we talked about earlier, and it's
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: one of it's one of those things where like the
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: story and the history behind it is so it's so
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: shocking to me. It's it's it's shocking to me that
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: it because in my opinion, this should have been This
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: shouldn't have just been a DLC. This should have been
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: woven into the main story, because there's an element to
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: this that has it's got a little bit of that
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 3: Moro wind deliment, you know, where the you know, the
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: Narra Marine is going on the pilgrimages and taking the
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: trials and you know, kind of like learning the history
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: and Knights of the Nine is kind of like a
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: weird little microcosm like that that's deeply woven in tied
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 3: to the Ambulti of Kings, the Covenant, the Empire, Elicia,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: all of it, like in a way that's just like
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: kind of weirdly not present in the main story of Oblivion.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: And I think it's I think it's a crying shame that,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: like cause I because I honestly, I honestly think that
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: like those two stories should have been synthesized into one.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because in a way it's a more fulfilling and
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: deeper aige for Broom, uh, where you're doing a very
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: similar thing going and doing these different tasks which aid
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: for Bruma is go to place, close gate, all right,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: I'll help you now, whereas this is a word, it's
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: just so much more depth to it, where you're you're
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: you know, and and the various quests that you're doing,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: You're you're you're sacrificing your yourself, you're giving yourself up,
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: you're taking on diseases, you're you know whatever, And there's
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: there's so much more to that of building a champion
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: than you know, go close gate counts happy, let's do
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: this thing.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just thinking about this, sorry, sir. I
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 3: was thinking about one of the one of the quests.
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, they all have like a neat little theme
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: to them. One of the quests for collecting one of
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: the armor pieces. There is this there is this young man,
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 3: this squire who like he's basically laying in the temple
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: in the temple, like he's kind of like he's kind
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: of like paralyzed. He can't really he can't move like
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 3: he can like he can barely lift his arms to
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: help him sell. And it's I can't remember, like it's
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: been hot. It's been a hot second since I've done
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: the quest. I can't remember exactly why he had his curse,
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: his affliction, but he was I know he was trying
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: to get one of the one of the armor pieces
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: for himself because he attempted to take on the pilgrimage
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: and he failed in some way. But what's really cool
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: is that you can kind of you do like this
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 3: nice nightly virtue of self sacrifice where you take the
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: young man's curse on yourself and it like affects your stats,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: like it affects your like your fatigue and your strength
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: and your speed and all of that, And so you
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: take on the young man's suffering, and in doing so
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: that makes you worthy to collect the piece of armor.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: It's very much a Christian nightly activity there, of literally
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: bearing his disease, you know that he might be free
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: and that you, in turn, I mean, can be virtuous
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: and that itself is its own strength that comes with rewards. Right,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: It's it's when you empty yourself in the right ways
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: that you actually become more full, more expansive, better equipped,
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: for what leaves before you. So yeah, that that DLC
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: is definitely a very much a hero's journey that is
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: largely missing from the oblivion, but fits very well within oblivion,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: as you were saying, as it builds you up into
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: the kind of hero that is fit to storm the
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: gates of hell, so to speak. And yeah, so yeah,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: totally totally agree with that also, I mean, just esthetically,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, he gets some cool stuff.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: I noticed earlier Christopher unmuted his microphone when you asked
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 3: if anybody had something to say A Christopher unmuted his
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: microphone and then muted it back. I was wondering if
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 3: he had something he wanted to say.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: No, it's just been kind of a late night kids
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so I've just been trying to
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: not be a distraction.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: You're well, you're well overdue for your turn to speak.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 3: Good sir, We would love to hear what you have
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: to say about oblivion.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: Spent a good amount of time stuck in painting and
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: on the shivering aisles. That's what I remember.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 3: That painting quest is so good.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: It was so trippy when the shaders just changed on
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: you and you're like, all of a sudden, Like what
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: on Earth?
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 3: I love what they did with that. In the remastered,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: they put like a painted like rasterization filter like over
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: the world like so like in the original game. Like
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: in the original version of the game, it's just kind
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: of like the textures of the grass and the trees
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: and everything, and the remastered they actually put like this
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: painted filter over everything, and it's really simple, but I
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: think it worked. It looks good.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a big fan of the remaster. It's just
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: beautiful work. And I desperately hope that one day they
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: get there with more wind.
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 3: We can hope.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: We can hope Arena and Red Guard as well. Yeah,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: has anyone here played the the those games, the first
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: second ones? I have, but I haven't.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 4: I have, but I haven't finished either of them. I've
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 4: gotten pretty far in Daggerfall, though. The best way to
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 4: play Daggerfall in particular is Dagrafall Unity, because you can
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 4: get all sorts of mods that they don't. I mean,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: it doesn't make the game look by you know, today's standards, great,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 4: but it does make it look much better compared to
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 4: the original, and it just runs better on modern systems.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 4: I believe there's a similar project in the works for
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 4: Arena and Red Guard, and then for Marrowin you can
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 4: actually get open Marwin, which allows you to add a
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 4: bunch of extra you know, fixes and mods and stuff,
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 4: so you know, I mean, they're not official remasters, but
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 4: you can kind of kind of get there with you know,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 4: player made mods and everything.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've seen people make Marowin look pretty good. Yeah,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: all right, Oh cool. I enjoyed this talk of oblivion.
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm really gonna try to do my
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: homework and be prepared next time as we get to
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: shipping aisles, which is, as I said, one of my
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: It is my favorite expansion of the whole run. So
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: I look forward to talking some some some Order of Chaos,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: some more some Shiogora and Jigglag stuff. So that'll be fun.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: All right, We'll go ahead and wrap it there for now.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 6: Ye have a good one. Take