Latest / Auto Collabs / “So we had to…” w/ Jim McKelvey

Transcript

“So we had to…” w/ Jim McKelvey · Auto Collabs

• 0:00
  There was this one time, actually it was the first time I ever heard Kyle speak in person. [upbeat music] This is Auto Collapse. It was a digital dealer in Tampa. And I was excited.
• 0:15
  You know, we, we had known each other a little bit, and I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna get to see him, like, do his thing from the stage."
• 0:20
  I sat down next to a random person I didn't know, and we started talking, and they recommended a book to me. It was called The Innovation Stack. And the guy seemed credible enough, so I ordered it on Amazon right away.
• 0:31
  And I was like, "I'll ship it to my house." So I go home, I read the book. The book totally changes my perspective on entrepreneurship. The author's name... Ooh, get it off. I bit my lip.
• 0:40
  The author's name is Jim McKelvey. I read the book, I kinda parked it for a while, and then I gave it to Kyle. Yep. And then you sat on it a while. Without a doubt, 'cause that's how I do books.
• 0:53
  [laughs] You're supposed to read them and hold them in. [laughs] Yeah. And then you told me about it yesterday. Wow. And I was like, "Okay." Okay, here we go.
• 1:03
  So I bought it on my Kindle and I started reading it on the flight over here, and I couldn't put it down, which is usually not how I do books. Well, that's what happened to me.
• 1:12
  So I got, uh, I actually got sick and read the book cover to cover in a day and a half. Wow. Because once I picked it up, it was like, "Oh, I'm in this book." Easy to read.
• 1:22
  It was easy to read, but it was also, I think you said the word earlier, it was, it's honest. Yeah, there's substance from his experience. [laughs] It is honest. And we need that.
• 1:33
  In, in today's world, you know, one of the things that grinds my gears is people that are like, "Oh, you wanna grow your business? Just do this." And you're like, "Really?"
• 1:42
  Without considering all of the other, you know, factors. "Well, it worked for me." Yeah. "Well, it worked for me." Really?
• 1:48
  And then you, you learn their story and you're like, "That's not how it played out for you at all." Yep. [laughs] I love... That's what...
• 1:54
  I, you know, I'm about, honestly, 40 pages into it, and I, I just read it the entire flight this morning. I plan on picking it up again on my flight back, uh, to, um, Texas. But it's so honest. It's so raw.
• 2:07
  It's, it's authentic. Like, this was the journey. And it's not just, "Here's the journey" isolated, like what, what he experienced with Square. It's, like, what came before that.
• 2:18
  What were the lessons compounding and the failures compounding before that? What were the risks? And how did he... I love how he's like, "This, like, scared the crap out of us." Mm-hmm. Right?
• 2:28
  I just love that authenticity, and it's so needed in, in the world today.
• 2:32
  You know, a lot of people know, so i- if, if you don't know, Jim is the co-founder with Jack Dorsey of Square, which is now called Block, because, you know, blockchain and stuff. Um- Still a square.
• 2:43
  Yeah, it's still a square. And a, a lot of people found out about Square because they realized that they needed to take payments. And by that time, it was a fairly decent sized company, right?
• 2:52
  And so you don't hear all of that, that grind that entrepreneurs go through. You know, these late hour nights of making different little prototypes and having to figure it out.
• 3:02
  And we'd, we'd never done anything like this before. Jim is a glassblower, right? That's the- Right... that's his trade by, by nature.
• 3:11
  [laughs] And so you don't, you don't think, typically g- uh, it's not a short walk from glassblower to tech entrepreneur, right? Yeah. That's not like, uh, oh, just a hop, skip, and a jump.
• 3:21
  That's a, it's normally a long walk. So the long walk is the education that any entrepreneur gets. And he talks about that through his book. I know we'll get that in the interview.
• 3:30
  I know we'll get that on stage at ASOTU CON, uh, when he's there, at the very first ever ASOTU CON.
• 3:35
  Um, and, and that level of honesty and encouragement for entrepreneurs in the, in, in what it really means, like you said, to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, he approaches problems...
• 3:46
  First of all, he says it has to really engage him if he wants to try to solve it. Mm. And, you know, in the book, he talks about Square, he talks about Southwest Airlines, he talks about Bank of America.
• 3:55
  He talks about serving an underserved population that everyone else seems to be ignoring. And him putting the pieces together in what he calls an innovation stack, which is the way that you do things.
• 4:06
  "We did this, which was a new thing. Well, if we wanted to do this, then we had to make these other things also work."
• 4:12
  So I can't think of a more relevant conversation for retail automotive right now than the, the innovation stack mentality that Jim brings up. So we're so excited for you to hear this interview.
• 4:28
  [upbeat music] Jim, we are so excited you just decided to, like, come to us from your cabin in Wisconsin with... If you're just listening to the audio, he's wearing a flannel shirt. There's pine doors behind him.
• 4:40
  And it, I just already feel more relaxed just by watching this. Jim, thank you so much for being with us today. Yeah.
• 4:47
  And, and in total disclosure, this is the bedroom 'cause it's the quietest room in the house, and I've got my laptop, like, stacked on laundry. [laughs] So, like- It's good...
• 4:56
  if, if you really wanna know, uh, how the other half lives, uh, this is it. [laughs] The laundry baskets are Jim's innovation stack for today. The stack of laundry baskets. Yes.
• 5:05
  [laughs] There's a literal s- there's a literal stack. I had to record, record a podcast in the bedroom, so then I had to stack laundry baskets so that I could, right? It's, like, perfect. It's perfect. E- exactly.
• 5:16
  You gotta- The, the behind-the-scenes is-... you gotta make it work, whatever you got... the behind-the-scenes is that there is a task for him, assigned to him, that says, "Fold laundry while doing podcast interviews."
• 5:26
  [laughs] It's perfect. It's great. So, um, so as you know, our audience is auto dealers and industry partners that are in the middle of this major upheaval in the auto industry.
• 5:40
  And, um, you know, we have our inside-the-auto-industry thoughts on what's going on in the automotive industry.
• 5:46
  But all of us are curious, what are your outsider thoughts on what is going on in the automotive industry right now?
• 5:54
  So it's really interesting, um, 'cause you've got now some direct sales models that are, you know, breaking up dealerships.
• 6:00
  Uh, cars are lasting longer, so service is becoming, uh, you know, sort of a greater profit component, I think, than sales.Um, the used car market is crazy.
• 6:09
  One of my friends, uh, runs Enterprise, uh, so I get to hear about, uh, buying cars by the tens of thousands. Uh, and it's, it's nuts. Um, I just bought a car last week in...
• 6:22
  Well, it was two weeks ago, um, and the delay is a year. Like, like pay it now. Can, can you tell us what you bought? What did you buy?
• 6:30
  Yeah, so we bought a, um, a seven-passenger van in, it was a Toyota van, and we bought it in Greece.
• 6:37
  So in, in Kilkis, Greece, if you buy a car, uh, they don't have any inventory, uh, and they can't get any inventory, so you pay now and you pick it up in a year. Oh, so you had to pay now?
• 6:51
  Uh, it's a deposit, not a f- Okay... not, not the full amount, but yeah. Yeah. I was like, "I would check on that." [laughs] And forget dealing.
• 6:56
  I mean, forget sort of any haggling, 'cause they got nothing to deal with, [laughs] so. They're like, "Here." [laughs] At least I couldn't haggle. They, they threw a paper on the thing, put their feet up and said, "So?"
• 7:06
  [laughs] Yeah. Right? What do you wanna do? You know? That's great.
• 7:11
  So, okay, so your, a good friend is, is at Enterprise, and in, in the, this side of the automotive industry is we've recognized that, you know, companies like Enterprise and Hertz like that are some of the bottleneck in the inventory perspective.
• 7:28
  Because, um, au- automakers in, in, initially moved all of their fleet purchasing into consumer purchasing because there was a need to satisfy consumer, uh, deals.
• 7:39
  And so I'm sure that he's kind of experienced the stress of, you know, uh, attempting to find inventory, right? Yeah, but they're also making, uh, very good money on the used car sales- Mm...
• 7:50
  'cause those are super valuable, so they were sitting on a ton of, uh... I mean, look, I haven't talked w- whether or not he's profitable or not, or how, uh, 'cause it's a private company, it's none of my business.
• 7:58
  Um, but just the change, just the amount of things that they've had to deal with from, uh, you know, from the pandemic sort of shutting down travel to then there being this huge boon in used car sales, uh, to now there's being this, you know, chip shortage so they can't get, they can't get vehicles out.
• 8:15
  It's, uh, it's crazy times. Yeah.
• 8:19
  And, and you are, you know, you're, uh, a lot of people may know you, or at least our audience, because we've been kind of talking about you coming to, uh, our conference at SoDoCon here in just a couple months.
• 8:30
  Um, and, uh, we, we know you as, you know, the, the, the co-founder of Square and the writer of The Innovation Stack, which was a lot what you were doing around Square.
• 8:39
  But you're also, um, very deep into, uh, the economist side and the understanding, like, the s- the small business economy, right?
• 8:47
  That it's not just all, all, uh, Square isn't your, like, one, one throat to choke kind of thing in all, all that you do, that you've got a lot of this breadth of knowledge across broader economy. So our...
• 8:58
  You know, one of the things that we've been asking, and, and our good friend that, Alex Vedder, the CEO of Cars, has said, is like there are leading indicators in economy, and automotive is just one of those leading indicators to the rest of the economy.
• 9:09
  So from that economist perspective, what are you having conversations with, um, both in small and large business, uh, in, in looking at auto, um, as a perspective for the rest of, uh, industry economy and retail?
• 9:25
  So yeah, auto's a great leading indicator. We don't have any auto execs right now on the Fed where I'm... Uh, so I'm on the St. Louis Fed. I'm the chair of the St. Louis Federal Reserve. Mm.
• 9:34
  And, um, we occasionally have automotive leaders on there. We don't have one right now. Uh, we used to have a big trucking company, which was a great leading indicator as well.
• 9:42
  Um, but look, I mean, you guys, uh, a lot of the time see it first, although my question right now is, does the ch- ch- does the chip shortage sort of mess up that indicator? Like, in other words- Mm...
• 9:54
  if we could get the car, we'd buy the car, but we can't get the car, so we're gonna, you know, satisfy ourselves with something else. Um, and, uh, a- at least from the,
• 10:04
  you know, from the Fed right now, we are looking at signs of, you know, serious inflation. Um, and there's been a recession technically, uh, started, if you count, uh, GDP.
• 10:17
  Um, and this, this, you'll probably have to edit this out 'cause it's so damn boring, but it turns out that, um- Try us... GDP is gross domestic product. Yeah. Try us. Like, that's stuff sold.
• 10:25
  And there should be this other thing called GDI, gross domestic income, and they should be the same, 'cause when some- some- when somebody sells something, another guy gets income, but
• 10:35
  they should, those numbers should match, and they don't. [laughs] So one of them's signaling recession. One of them is not. So GDI is not signaling recession right now.
• 10:44
  So we're looking at all these leading indicators and kind of scratching our heads going, "Well, what's going on?" Um, and the, and the fact is we don't know, 'cause we shut down a healthy economy.
• 10:53
  So if you remember in 2019 when the virus came along, things were actually pretty good. Kind of remember that. Like, we'd been in a, you know, 12-year run. Yeah. [laughs] We remember back.
• 11:01
  Like, and, and we've never in the history of any economy started a recession intentionally. Like, it's always been something went wrong, like the housing bubble, and, you know, you get a recession.
• 11:14
  But this time what we did was we took a healthy economy, and we said, "Well, we need to shut this down for health reasons."
• 11:19
  And that's never been done, so the question is, okay, is it, is it like, you know, your doctor inducing a coma, um, which is probably better than you coming into the hospital in a coma? You know?
• 11:31
  [laughs] Like, if, if it's induced, you can probably get them out of it, right? Mm. As opposed to you're a vegetable and, you know, we're just crossing our fingers and, uh, you know, calling your next of kin.
• 11:40
  Uh, so we really don't know if this thing restarts differently than another recession. It might just come right b- right back to life fast. But, um, these are interesting times in the economics world.
• 11:54
  This is one of those things that I think is really interesting, because here we are as... And I love how you've, you kind of depict this in the book, the difference between entrepreneurs and business people.
• 12:05
  Looking at it through the lens of a business person, the last two years are really difficult for us to forecast what the next few years are gonna look like, 'cause we've just kind of, uh, it, the last two year...
• 12:14
  I don't know how you guys feel. It's like the lastTwo years, three years has been like the Thanos snap of business.
• 12:21
  'Cause like how can you actually base anything off of the last two years with how unpredictable it has been and, and especially in the car business? Yeah. It's driving predictable business people crazy.
• 12:36
  Like if you're- Mm-hmm... used to following a formula, and that formula's been working for 25 years, the last thing you want is what we've just lived through, and we're, what we're gonna go live through.
• 12:45
  Like it's, it's just so much change. And what I talk about a lot in the book is that there's this mindset of the entrepreneur. And it's not something that's pleasant, okay? Like, nobody seeks this out.
• 12:55
  But some of us are sort of better equipped to deal with uncertainty and chaos on a daily basis than others, right?
• 13:02
  And if you need predictability, if you need to be sort of given a formula that you know works before you can start your work, um, then you're in real trouble right now, 'cause there's no known formula that works.
• 13:13
  There are a lot of smart people with a lot of good ideas, and this is actually why I'm kind of psyched about coming to your conference, is because, wow, that industry's really been disrupted, and I'm just gonna listen.
• 13:20
  I'm just gonna, you know, sort of soak up ideas and see what, you know, what people are thinking. But there's, you know, the people
• 13:28
  that I studied in the book are all of these folks who didn't really want to be out on their own, be out forced to invent things, but they sort of got into that situation, and they couldn't help it, and then they just refused to quit.
• 13:41
  And if you have that attitude, you're eventually forced to invent something.
• 13:45
  So innovation, I think, is, is sort of a last resort, but it better be a last resort if you're in a changing environment, and that's certainly what we're in right now. Yeah.
• 13:53
  You talk about, so in the book, uh, you need to read it if you haven't, you talk about, uh, Bank of America, Southwest Airlines, Ikea, and of course Square. Y- there's this element of copying as much as you can, right?
• 14:06
  Whenever you can, copy it. Because- Yes... spend your time, energy, and money on what you need to do to do the unique thing that you're going to do.
• 14:15
  And right now, in automotive anyway, there's not a whole lot to copy, right? Because everyone is, like, shifting. Like, what are we supposed to be copying from here?
• 14:24
  So it feels like even from an innovation stack mindset, there's very little to copy when it comes to, like, how are we gonna pull out of this situation?
• 14:34
  There might be other industries that are going through similar things. You might see parallels with these.
• 14:39
  So I would, you know, really encourage people who are in any vertical to, you know, sort of visit other spaces, right? Which is one of the reasons I love... I mean, what I know about automotive is, is almost zero, right?
• 14:50
  So I'm super excited to come to your conference. Like, that's just gonna be a great learning experience for me. Um, but generally, you're right.
• 14:58
  There's no model right now that they can just follow and plug in and have, have the numbers work. There's no guarantee. And so they're gonna have to get, um, get their heads around innovation.
• 15:09
  And, and one of the things that I talk about in the book that I, I think I didn't emphasize enough is what you just said, which is that copying should be the first thing you always do, but be willing to admit when it's not working, right?
• 15:22
  Mm. And we've, we've done two real disservices to people. The first is we've told them, "Be original. Oh, be original, be original." [laughs] No. Do something that works.
• 15:32
  Like, if, if, if what everybody's doing works- [laughs]... do that, you know? [laughs] Um, like, that's... I'm, I'm not trying to be an original parent. I got two kids. I'm trying to raise them- [laughs]...
• 15:41
  you know, to be normal kids. Can you imagine that? [laughs] Other parents with, like, great normal kids. And I was like, "Oh, please, you know, your kid looks pretty decent. What the hell did you do?
• 15:49
  I wanna do the same thing," you know? I don't wanna be original, I wanna be successful. Um, but the other thing that we'd, we've done, which I think is also wrong, is we've sort of oversold this idea of innovation.
• 15:59
  Like, oh, you should be original and innovative all the time. So we make it seem like this cool thing. And it's, it's only cool in hindsight, at least for me.
• 16:09
  Like, when I'm doing something that I don't know how to do, I'm always uncomfortable. Mm. And I don't like it, but it just is, there's just no other way to be, 'cause there's nothing to copy from. What do you think?
• 16:19
  You know, it's, it's funny- You know there's an original parent. Oh. We all got excited.
• 16:22
  [laughs] I'm, I'm just thinking there's an original parent out there somewhere that's duct-taped a fork to an infant's hand 'cause they want it to feed itself. [laughs] You know what I mean? Like... It doesn't work.
• 16:33
  I got loads of that stuff, man. If that works- [laughs] Take it. Michael, that is one of the most terrifying visuals. No, I, I, I think about that all the time. [laughs] Yeah.
• 16:41
  I think about that all the time, because there are so many things that I do that it's like it's just rote at this point. It's natural. It's in my nature. I know how to do it, right?
• 16:49
  Uh, you know, I can put an iframe on a website yesterday, right? Yeah.
• 16:54
  But any time that it's like I have no clue what I'm doing it but somehow I'm doing it in this moment, y- there's this moment where you kinda look back on it and you're like, "Am I gonna remember what I just did the la- the next time?"
• 17:10
  Because you were, you were so in this mode of just trying to figure it out because nothing else was working- Totally... or you've never done it before.
• 17:17
  And so then you have to do it, and you look back and you're f- and you finally...
• 17:21
  Y- I, I like how you said that innovation is typically hindsight, because you sometimes don't even recognize that you're innovating in the moment- Yeah...
• 17:28
  that you're doing it, because it's only out of, like, dire need that you either have to learn or try it in that moment, right? Yeah. The phrase is, "Oh my God, that really worked?" [laughs] You know?
• 17:42
  You tried something and it works, and it's like- Huh?... "Oh my God. What? That, that crazy thing that I did just worked?" Um, I see a lot of that. I have a question for you.
• 17:54
  What is the most innovative thing you have ever done? Innovative thing I've ever done? God. [laughs] In, in your mind, right? You don't have to go, like, what everyone else thought was innovative. For you personally.
• 18:12
  It's like I stacked laundry baskets- I, I-... in order to have this Zoom call. I mean, I've done- [laughs]... hundreds of examples. Uh, you know, probably the funniest one,
• 18:30
  uh, was single and being- I think we lost you guys I'm sorry, guys. The, the internet lagged there, so hopefully- One more second... I didn't, uh- So you said, "Probably the funniest one" Hold on, hold on.
• 18:41
  We'll cut it, yeah. We'll wait till... Yeah, we can cut there. That's fine. Yeah. See, this- Wisconsin Yeah, sorry. I'll try, I'll, I'll try- [laughs] I'll, I'll try this again. Um, uh, I c-
• 19:00
  y- y- I, I can't give you the best example, um, but probably the funniest one was when
• 19:11
  I realized that, um, trying to look cool and be cool was making me, me look uncool. And, and so I sort of...
• 19:25
  At, at one point in my dating life I, I just sort of gave up 'cause I c- gave up, and I w- I became sort of a, you know, sort of a sullen jerk. And the, the, the net effect was massively positive.
• 19:36
  I was like, "Wait a second. How can this be working?" You know? How can sort of being sort of rude and sort of detached and, you know, sort of aloof be appealing?
• 19:44
  I thought I was supposed to be nice and polite and, you know, better dressed and, and just... It, um... That might tell you about the people I hang out with more than me. [laughs] But I think, like,
• 19:58
  sometimes you do the opposite, okay? So I'll give you another example. Uh, we launched a program in St. Louis, uh, to, to train programmers. And... 'Cause we don't have enough programmers in St.
• 20:10
  Louis, so I thought, "Well, we need more." And, um, but we, we knew that education didn't work because everybody else had started with education. So instead of doing education we just did dop- job placement.
• 20:20
  We said, "Look, we don't care how you learn the stuff. Just show up. We'll get you the job." And- Mm... we figured out how to do that, and then people started showing up without the training they needed.
• 20:28
  And it was like, "Okay, we'll get you some training now." But we always... We, we, we did the whole thing backwards.
• 20:32
  So I mean, that's, that's sort of a interesting way to do something if you're, if you're looking to, you know, get new input. Like, try it the opposite way. Just go full on other direction. Um,
• 20:46
  but y- I think the, I think the more important lesson for people is, you know, be ready for that surprise moment when it actually works. Be ready for that time- Mm... when... I...
• 20:57
  Like, I see these videos of these guys doing, uh, you know, they try to flip the bottle upright, you know? And they're always so surprised when it works, 'cause you know the last 100 times they flipped- [laughs] Right...
• 21:07
  but it's not in the video, they, they... You know, it didn't work. But the 99th flip the thing lands, and you can see the reaction. Like, I don't care about the bottle.
• 21:17
  I want to see the reaction on the guy's face, because what that reaction tells me is that, "Dude, you've been trying all afternoon to do this one little trick and you just landed it. Congratulations."
• 21:27
  But it's that surprise. So be, be ready for that moment when the bottle lands up and it's not supposed to, or whatever your thing is. Mm. And be ready to notice it.
• 21:35
  And, and also be willing to a- admit the fact that the thing you thought would work might not be the thing that does work. Mm. This... I love this, this parallel that you draw to an earlier statement you made, Jim, um,
• 21:51
  which is that it's un... Like, there, there's, there's something to be said of the fact that we are overselling innovation today.
• 22:03
  We're, we're overselling entrepreneurship, we're overselling all of these things, illustrated in your book where you're, like...
• 22:09
  I mean, how did you know that putting pamphlets on CDs for trade shows was gonna be a thing? But in that there... It was s- like such unsexy work. Like, here comes Jack and he's scanning pages and copying them over.
• 22:21
  And, and you did that repeatedly over and over and over and over again. And, and I just think today there's so many voices out there, and I'd love your perspective on this.
• 22:33
  There's so many voices out there that are like, "Oh, you want to be successful? Just do the thing and there you go." And it's like, "Oh, look, you know, here's my six..."
• 22:42
  I don't know why six figures, by the way, is always the, the, like, thing. They're like, "Learn how I did a thing and built a six-figure business." You're like, "Cool. Great."
• 22:51
  [laughs] But you're, you're talking about repetition, finding innovation and getting clarity through movement, doing a thing over and over again- Yeah... as unsexy as it may seem. And, and how that's, uh...
• 23:03
  You know, what I took from your book is that those movements are essential to gaining the clarity required to have compounding success. Would love your take on that. I, I'll give you that. What? Can...
• 23:17
  [laughs] The Fruit Roll-Ups are in the pantry. She needs her swimsuit. Oh. So I- Of course... Yeah, go get my swimsuit. Wisconsin in the summer. Well, we're... Now you have to tear down your innovation stack.
• 23:27
  [laughs] Oh, God. [laughs] This might be- Yeah... the best podcast interview I've ever been a part of. Probably. Can you edit in, like, elevator music with, like, the, the- Yes... the bars like on Late Night TV?
• 23:38
  Yes, we can. [elevator music] I think we need to re-ask that question. [laughs] Yeah, Michael, a- ask the question again- Okay... 'cause that was a great question. [laughs] Right. So, so
• 23:52
  something that you said earlier really intrigues me. You speak about almost this repetitious need in business to kind of do these things over and over again, and then a way to, to build clarity.
• 24:02
  I mean, how could you have known that, um, attending a trade show would lead to putting content on CDs to distribute at trade shows?
• 24:10
  And as you explain, you know, scanning pages and putting those into the software and onto the CD, like, there's nothing about that that sounds appealing, just as a side note.
• 24:20
  But you did it, and it was like, "Oh, this works"?
• 24:23
  And it worked until it didn't.But I, I love how you illustrate the f- the, the need for that because there's so many people out there that just want us to believe they, they checked three boxes off- Yeah...
• 24:35
  and success happened, and they had a magical six-figure business, albeit I don't know why that's so appealing to some. I mean, like, hey, you know what? Aim lower. That's- Yeah... that's what I see.
• 24:45
  [laughs] That's what I... [laughs] So what, what's your take on that? It... What's the message- So-...
• 24:50
  that you'd like to convey to those in, in business right now, especially in the car business, around repetitious behavior and, and why that might be essential? S- so, um, the...
• 25:00
  one of the greatest examples was the publication of my book, um, because I, you know, I wrote the whole book.
• 25:06
  I actually rewrote the thing five or six times before I even showed it to publishers, so it was pretty much in the final format- Hmm...
• 25:12
  um, except for the last two rewrites, and I took it into these, um, publishers fully done. Okay? No treatment, no outline. Like, this was a full book with illustrations, with, like, cartoons. It had everything.
• 25:24
  And it was, um, uh, it was Harper Collins, which is a big press. Yeah. Uh, they wouldn't even read it. They tried to bluff their way through the interview- That they read it...
• 25:35
  pretending they'd read it, and I could tell they didn't read it- [laughs]... 'cause they were asking questions that I... I was like, "Either I'm a really bad writer, or you guys didn't read this."
• 25:43
  And then I s- I, I was like, "Did you read this book?" And they're like, "No, no. We, w- we looked at the outline." And I was like, "Why the hell didn't you read it? Like, it's a full book."
• 25:52
  And they were like, "Well, we saw some problems with it." I was like, "Okay, so you s- saw some problems with without reading it." Here's the problem that they said: it needs checklists. And I said, "Wait a second.
• 26:03
  The whole point of this book is discussing things that have never been done before."
• 26:07
  [laughs] "So how the hell am I supposed to build a checklist when I don't even know how many items-" Choose something that's never been done. Do it. Write book. Yeah. Right?
• 26:16
  [laughs] Except that checklist is too short because what they told me, I'm not making this up, they said the checklist needs to have five to seven items on it.
• 26:25
  Like a, for a full book, not a listicle or one of those sort of l- things, but, like, if you wanna do a full published business book, um, you need five to seven i- five to seven items.
• 26:36
  Like- 'Cause they focus you to death... here are the five to four. More than seven, y- it's, it's too much.
• 26:40
  But they had this formula for it, and they really wanted to force every bit of thought that I'd had into this formula. And, and I think, Michael- Hmm...
• 26:51
  that's sort of, to answer your question, that's why we so- see so much of that crap, is because
• 26:57
  you start going down these paths, and then you see some formula that's been, you know, sort of vetted, and somebody gives you the checklist, and then you do the checklist.
• 27:07
  Or, or worse than that, you make up your own checklist with five to seven items on it, you know? And it's, it's just too, uh, superficial. Like, u- unfortunately, you know, when I, you know, I...
• 27:21
  When I was trying to write the book, I was trying to capture this idea that you don't get a guarantee if you're doing something that's new. Yeah. And that's the thing.
• 27:33
  If, if I listen for that question, in most of the, uh, you know, most of the questions I get from audiences, it's, it's always like, "How do I know when I've succeeded?" Or, "How do I know how to keep going?"
• 27:43
  Or, "How do I know? How do I... " And the answer is, you don't. [laughs] Like, you don't know it's actually gonna work. You're trying something. It might never work.
• 27:52
  [laughs] And that's the thing that people can't handle. Like, people can't wrap their heads around the fact that what I'm doing may never work. That bottle may not flip and land upright. Right. You know? Ah, yeah.
• 28:03
  And I just... I, I feel for those people because I've been there so many times, but you just... You're never gonna get that guarantee.
• 28:11
  And if you're hoping for the guarantee, you end up, you know, like these people who, you know, uh, live in St. Louis, and they think they live in San Francisco or, or San Diego.
• 28:21
  [laughs] Like, San Diego has perfect weather, okay? St. Louis has horrible weather, okay? [laughs] So I go all the time when my friends are like, "It's 110 degrees out here." And I'm like, "Yeah, it's July."
• 28:32
  [laughs] Or like, "It's freezing out." You know, they're complaining about the weather. Like, you live in St. Louis, Missouri. Naturally. The weather is terrible half the year. It's very extreme. We have 20 below.
• 28:40
  We have 110. Like, it's, it's bad. You're not living in San Fr- San Diego. It's 72 year-round out there. [laughs] It's their expectations.
• 28:50
  So I was just trying to lower people's expectations to go, "Look, guys, you are not going to be given a guarantee." People have succeeded without that in the past. So it... You feel a little bit letter...
• 29:05
  You feel a little bit better if you don't feel like, uh, you're, you're being lied to by some checklist.
• 29:13
  There's an element of the i- I, I immediately felt that reading the book, by the way, and I just wanted to give you props for that. Good.
• 29:18
  And, and r- why I'm so glad that these two stooges, uh, recommended that I read it, I immediately felt hope.
• 29:25
  I was like, "Oh, I'm not, I'm not a crazy person for thinking the way that I do," despite what we hear from the, the, you know, social media, you know, whate- m- crew who perpetuate the best parts of their fake lives online.
• 29:40
  And you're like, "I'm a failure." And then you read yours, and you're like, "I'm not... Maybe I'm not a fa... Actually, maybe I am a failure, but I'm okay with it now." Yeah. It was worth it. Or whatever. Like, yeah.
• 29:49
  It, it's... Thank you. Thank you 'cause, I mean, these are the people that I, that I really wanna reach, the folks who sit there, and I think are behaving very rationally and very admirably,
• 30:03
  but they're living in this world where everybody else is saying, "Well, well, you're stupid 'cause, you know, that might not work," or, or, or, uh, like, one of the things that really hit home to me is how many of the great entrepreneurs have had their loved ones tell them, "Stop."
• 30:20
  Right? Not the competition, not the people that they're beating up in the market, but the folks who care about the most are sayingMichael, don't do that, man. Yeah. Like, why would you take that risk?
• 30:29
  Why would you do that? You know, Kyle, come on. Like, come o- come, come back into the herd, Paul. Like, get back here, you know? I mean, it's, it's,
• 30:38
  it's really terrifying to have the people who you know have your best interest at heart telling you not to do something. [laughs] Well, you know, I, I- That's kind of the moment we realize-...
• 30:45
  I think some of it is because those closest people to you feel somewhat unsettled and safe by what you're telling them you're about to do too. Absolutely. Right? Because they're like- Yeah...
• 30:56
  "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So what you're telling me is you don't really know what's on the other side. You're kinda making it up a little bit as you go along, though.
• 31:03
  You're kinda doing this over here, but we've never really seen what you're doing. Explain to me that again because I don't think it's safe on the other side." And the SPA- They, and they're just telling you that-...
• 31:11
  all the data, right, all the data's like- [laughs]... "And you're likely gonna die." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, [laughs] there, there is that too. [laughs] Yeah. Um, it's, uh, it's a, it-
• 31:26
  the, the book tries to be an honest portrayal of what that feels like- Yeah... with a bunch of humor.
• 31:32
  Because the good thing about this topic is that there are a lot of great stories, because great stories are failure stories. Like, stuff that blows up and, you know, you lose a limb or something.
• 31:42
  Like, that's, you know, it's not a great experience, but it's a great story, you know? So I think that I want people...
• 31:50
  What, what I wanted to do is, is sort of respect the fact that most of the time in your life you're gonna be in a world where we can YouTube our way out of problems, right?
• 31:59
  You got, you know, the thing that doesn't work, you go on YouTube, you can look up somebody who's doing it. You know, maybe he'll talk too long, but you'll, you'll get the answer, right?
• 32:07
  But occasionally you're gonna find yourself on that edge where we don't have a video or a checklist or a solution or some expert you, you can pay, um, to solve that problem. And I think most people then back away
• 32:22
  because you've been trained your whole life, "Well, I'm not qualified to do this." Hmm. And the answer is, you're absolutely right, you're not qualified. But by the same token, nobody's qualified.
• 32:35
  Like, there's nobody qualified to do something the first time. Every time humanity advances forward, it's always by somebody who was not qualified. [laughs] That's a good point. That's great. That's a great word.
• 32:45
  [laughs] That's good. You know, we, we have, uh, we don't have a ton of time left, but, well, one, we, we just wanna tell you that, you know, Paul and I particularly, upon... It, it was...
• 32:57
  Uh, we'll tell you the story more in depth maybe when we're together.
• 33:00
  But it, it was, it was your book actually that kind of, like, was in the impetus to bringing us together to create what we've created that is now this, that is now hosting an event, which is Automotive State of the Union as a, as a company.
• 33:14
  It was Paul's kinda side gig before that, but it was this idea that, like, okay, there's a whole market segment that's unserved, and we have to draw that together.
• 33:23
  And the only way to do it is no- nobody in auto's ever done it that way before, and so we have to build a community like X.
• 33:30
  And, uh, also there's no technology that can be built for this amount of dollars to do it that way, [laughs] 'cause everybody that's currently doing it has much bigger budgets.
• 33:40
  [laughs] And so we, so we've kinda built it that way.
• 33:44
  Um, but one of the really interesting things that, that, uh, as auto people, uh, we saw in your book that maybe a lot of others may not, uh, uh, may have just kind of glanced over, is that, uh, you mentioned that you had an idea to start an EV company.
• 34:00
  Oh, absolutely. Can you talk- That's, that's a little bit more about...... a little bit more about... We've gotta know. The, there was, it was like just briefed over in the book. That was like one sentence.
• 34:07
  [laughs] But for us that's like, that's like we're raising our hand going, "Tell us about that." I actually missed it the first time through.
• 34:13
  I was sitting, I was reading the book again just a couple of weeks ago and I was like, "Skrrt, what?" [laughs] We gotta ask him. [laughs] Yeah. So, um, the st- this, the, the... My glass studio in St.
• 34:27
  Louis, Missouri is on this street called Delmar Boulevard, which, uh, got some money from the government and put down a decorative median.
• 34:34
  And when they dug up the, the, the asphalt to stick this decorat- uh, to, to stick these plants down the center of the street, they exposed all the old streetcar tracks. Okay.
• 34:45
  They just, years ago they just paved over these things. Yeah. Now, what you don't know about St. Louis is that we're one of the most segregated cities in the country. Mm-hmm.
• 34:52
  And w- a lot of our problems come from the fact that we are no longer connected as a people. Like, we've really got segregation down to an art in St.
• 35:00
  Louis, and part of that is because it's just hard to get from the Black side to the white side, and the poor side to the rich side, and the... You know, all that stuff just isn't connected. But it used to be,
• 35:10
  and it used to be connected by streetcars, which we tore out intentionally. And
• 35:18
  Jack Dorsey, who worked for me when he was 15, uh, he and I had talks like 20 years earlier about this problem and how, you know, he hated the automotive companies and swore he'd never own a car, and I, you know, felt similarly.
• 35:34
  And about that time I was... So I saw them tear up these tracks, and I was, I was pissed off and I felt powerless. And I looked at what the, what Detroit was building and I was like, "This is terrible."
• 35:47
  Um, and I'd seen an EV1 because, uh, uh... Um, uh, I, I do, actually my, my, one of my companies [laughs]...
• 36:01
  study, um, conference, Transportation User Board- Jim, Jim, can we, can we pause you right there?... those guys are the- Could you start back where you said, "And I saw-" N- nutty parts of, uh... Am I cutting out?
• 36:12
  Yeah, cutting out a little bit. We'll wait until it, it catches back up and we can edit this for sure. All right, I think you're back. Yeah. I'll, I'll, I'll- Okay. So say, "I saw an EV1." Okay.
• 36:21
  I'll, I'll, I'll talk- That's where you start. Cut out. All right. Yeah, no, no. Okay. So, um, I saw an-EV1 back at, uh, ITS America. At... The, the Transportation Research Board was one of my customers.
• 36:38
  I've often thought the electric car was the wave of the future. This was before Tesla. And I thought, "I need to build what Tesla was." And I didn't know that Elon was doing it at the time.
• 36:49
  Um, so I started actually looking for, uh, the components to build a car, and batteries. I mean, I was starting down that path. Um, and that led me back to contact Jack. Um, and Jack had just started Twitter.
• 37:05
  Uh, and then he'd just been kicked out of Twitter. And so when they kicked him out of Twitter, he didn't have anything to do, so he was like, "Hey, Jim, if you wanna do the car company, I understand.
• 37:13
  But why don't we do something else?" And I was like, "Cool, what do you wanna do?" [laughs] So that's what became Square. I, I was actually trying to build a car com- [audio distorts] company. Um, but
• 37:31
  by the, the time we got going, you know, I was like, "Okay, well, let's let Elon do that, and we'll do this payment thing." Well, they, they both seem to be working out so far. [laughs] Yeah.
• 37:44
  Okay, so, um, we, we only have a, a couple minutes left. We're looking forward to seeing you on stage and hanging out.
• 37:50
  And I love the fact that, um, you're in absorption mode with automotive, because they're some of the brightest people in the industry- Hey, guys... that you're gonna get to meet. Pause for just a second.
• 38:02
  I'm gonna go see if some kid is on the internet, 'cause the internet's really slowing down here. Okay. [laughs] Hold on.
• 38:09
  [laughs] In our, in our call with him yesterday, Michael, he was like, "I gotta tell everybody to stay off the internet." He's like, "So whatever my kids are doing online, God knows what."
• 38:18
  He goes, "But they're not doing..." [laughs] Like, he's gonna make sure they're not doing it while he's on this podcast. [laughs] They're hogging all the bandwidth. There are some things money can buy.
• 38:26
  For everything else, there's poor internet still. [laughs] There you go. Uh- What were they watching? [laughs] Uh, nothing. They- everyone, you know... No one, no one's gonna admit it, so. [laughs] I n-
• 38:44
  I need a packet sniffer or something- Uh-... to figure it out. [laughs] He's gonna figure out exactly what it was. Okay. Um, I'll ask the question again. So, um- Yeah...
• 38:54
  we only have a, a few minutes left, and we're so excited you're gonna get to hang with us at ASOTU Con in September.
• 38:59
  I love the fact that you're in absorption mode when it comes to automotive, because they are some of the best innovators in the industry.
• 39:05
  I think you're, you're very much going to feel like you're with your people when you're with these specific people in the industry.
• 39:11
  Um, what is your advice, before you know anything else about the auto industry, looking into the... You're looking at car, you're speaking to car dealers. What are you telling them?
• 39:20
  How are you telling them to orient themselves right in this moment in time? Uh, my best advice is humility. Humility, humility, humility. Like, just be, be the dumbest person in the room. Mm.
• 39:35
  Um, because you'll be more likely to, uh, to hear that good idea if you don't think you already have it in your head. Mm.
• 39:44
  Um, that's the hardest for really smart people who are used to having answers, and are used to being successful. Um, and I, uh, but I, I, I... I- if there had to be one bit of advice, that would be it.
• 39:58
  'Cause that is the most likely thing to, m- to let the seed germinate. Like, you know, you, the, the seed lands, but if it hits concrete, it's not gonna bloom, you know?
• 40:09
  It needs to hit some sort of fertile soil that's willing to receive a new idea.
• 40:15
  Um, and humility, at least for me, is the best way to keep myself in that, in that mindset, which is like, "I really don't understand anything. I'm here to learn. These people are smarter than me," right?
• 40:25
  And a lot of times I like to go through the world thinking I'm really smart, right? Um, uh, especially when I, like, read news or politics or something like that. "I'm, I could do that better than the..." You know?
• 40:35
  [laughs] Fill in the blank. But I think the opposite is the attitude that, that you should have, especially at a conference, uh, like this. Oh, man.
• 40:44
  Well, that is, that's a good word going into, like, daily life, like, at conference, any time where you are...
• 40:51
  Like, if you are seeking to learn with humility, I think that, uh, you know, the, the, the sky is the limit, because your ears are open to, uh, the best possible ideas that could come from, "Hey," maybe you're, you're, you come up with it, or someone else in the room, or it spurs you on to think something.
• 41:05
  So that's huge. But Jim, thanks so much for letting us hang.
• 41:08
  I'm just ridiculously ex- excited to hang out with you, uh, and, and kind of break bread over all the conversations that are happening around, and hear you, uh, kind of impart, um, uh, just words of wismon- wisdom and care for the auto dealers and industry partners and everyone that'll be in the room.
• 41:25
  Um, and I think people will be well-served by this conversation too. So thanks for hanging out with us, and, uh, we can't wait to meet you soon. Thanks, guys. We'll look forward to it.
• 41:34
  [upbeat music] And, uh, I'll be doing mostly listening, but I'm, I'm really, uh, hoping that I, it's gonna be a great learning experience for everybody. Okay, so that, I, I wasn't sure what to expect going into it.
• 41:49
  I mean, I've read- Me neither... most of his book, and I'm, I've just... It's a page-turner. It's an easy read, but it's, it's just so compelling. So I, I had a bit of a basis coming into this.
• 42:01
  I had no idea he was gonna be so much fun and dynamic, and so, I'm- That's what I was gonna say. It, it just gonna be really exciting. Over-deliver, under-deliver? Over-deliver, as expected, or under-deliver?
• 42:10
  Oh, n- Oh, way over. I mean, yeah, way over-deliver. I mean, you know, there's some where you come in and you're just whelmed, you know? And you're just- [laughs] I am-... right through the middle. I'm whelmed.
• 42:20
  Well, here's what's crazy- No, he, that was amazing...
• 42:21
  is, is I've seen a few other, like, podcasts and interviews he's been on, and, you know, the, the, the difference with the three of us, right, and the majority of, uh, is like, you know-The, the majority of America kind of goes in, it's like they have their questions written down at the bottom, and they're looking down- [laughs]...
• 42:40
  and all that, and he's like, "Yep, okay, I've heard that one. Yep, that one's on the last podcast," right?
• 42:45
  And, and I think that he had fun, too, and I think that that's what, you know, is so cool about what we're doing and what the automotive industry is.
• 42:53
  And I- w- the, the thing that got me the most was, and this was a little bit, you know, a, of following our conversation with him, and, and even in the conversation, he was like, "I'm coming early.
• 43:04
  I'm gonna listen, I'm gonna learn, because I have no clue what's going on." That's amazing. "I have some contextualization because I know some people."
• 43:11
  [clears throat] "But what I wanna do is take everything that I know and lean in to the conversation that's happening that day already, and then we're just gonna extrapolate all of the goodness that comes from my learning and the wisdom that happens in the room.
• 43:24
  We're gonna put them together and make-" Good, nice... "this happy marriage of things that are gonna happen at the end of, at the end of Monday." That's incredible for me. No doubt.
• 43:32
  You know, I think the one thing that was really funny that didn't make it on the podcast, because we stopped pressing record, is he said, "I have a new company right now."
• 43:40
  This is at the end after we stopped the, the interview. "I have a new company right now. We're making compostable diapers." And Michael says- [laughs]... "Great, 'cause we're almost in a recession.
• 43:50
  You can deliver them to every small business owner in the country." [laughs] Well, 'cause he was, he was looking for focus group users. He was. Kyle says, "I got a four-month-old.
• 44:02
  Like, my wife's gonna attack you at this thing and say, 'When can we get them?'" And I'm thinking, y- you should just bring boxes of them to this- [laughs]... to this event, you know, just so we're all prepared.
• 44:10
  [laughs] Who wants to line up to test a diaper? I don't know. I, I'm not, not big into- So good... testing diapers. The, the fact that he is kind of who I expected him to be. Like, I didn't know from a person that- Mm...
• 44:22
  I, literally from a personality standpoint, all I really knew were his words, and his, his, you know- Right... his tone from the book, and his wit, and his intelligence from the book.
• 44:32
  But all of a sudden, like, when we had this conversation, I was like, "Oh, I can, I can picture him writing this book." So I really think kind of like- Yeah... what you read is what you get in this scenario.
• 44:44
  And man, I couldn't be any more excited to meet him in person and try to... We gotta make sure that we, we don't hog him from everybody else, because we're gonna wanna whisk him away and just like- [laughs]...
• 44:53
  "Let's just get in a VIP room and not let anyone else talk to you, 'cause we have questions." Yeah. Have you noticed, though, that this is a common thread. Like, those that... I mean, the, the level of
• 45:04
  achievement that he's had is, is to, uh, you know, at times just unfathomable to me, and he's like, "I'm doing this thing." You know, it's so casual to him. Like, that is not...
• 45:16
  I, I find this common thread with those who achieve incredible levels of success and achievement. That is not still the thing that defines who they are, and I love, like he said, "humility" in the podcast.
• 45:28
  Like, it just, it pours off of him. Here he is propping up his laptop on laundry baskets, and it's just like, "Yeah, I did a thing. You know, like, I'm doing this thing." Well, and- And, and I love that...
• 45:40
  and I love, like the thing that everyone would know him about, or that's on the headline of even the AsotuCon website, is co-founder of Square. And- Right...
• 45:48
  the, we literally asked him what he did three times on or off the podcast. [laughs] And it was the third or fourth thing that he said. [laughs] It's like, and [laughs]...
• 45:57
  He's like, "Oh, and I'm the-" Yeah, it's, it's-... "chairman of the St. Louis Federal Reserve." [laughs] Right. No big deal. Right. [laughs] Just a thing. Ah.
• 46:04
  I'm the largest importer of sand into the United States with my glass blowing company. Right, glassblowing sand. [laughs] And then there's that.
• 46:10
  No, and, uh, but it's this, it's this, it's that spirit that I think that automotive dealers and automotive industry partners have to take to their every day is like, "Yep, there's that thing I'm doing, and there's that thing I'm doing, and then there's that thing I'm doing.
• 46:24
  I'm doing that really well, so it's steady. And then I have to try something new over here, because I know that there's a problem that hasn't been solved, whether inside or outside of my business," right?
• 46:34
  The compostable diapers, he's like, "There's a problem. Nobody solved for it." Mm-hmm. Gosh. "I need to solve for it." And so, but over here, it's like, "Yep, Fed Reserve and Square, they're working." I know. Right?
• 46:43
  And there's probably some minor innovations, but over here is the major one. Right.
• 46:46
  And all of those are kind of, like, working together and understanding that whether you're in a single rooftop business and there are things like that moving, or you're working on multiple businesses,
• 46:57
  uh, it, it's, it's just a trajectory that I think that more people have to enter with humility, like he said, and just constantly be in that mode of learning and listening.
• 47:05
  Well- Here's what I'm so excited about, and, and then I'll turn it back over to you and shut up.
• 47:10
  The, the thing that I think is so compelling about him being one of the featured speakers at AsotuCon is what he said, "I don't have a ton of experience inside of automotive."
• 47:22
  And as he was saying that, I had an experience that came to my mind. I lost my car keys for 45 minutes straight one day. I'm looking high and low, guys. I'm crawling. I'm looking under couches. I'm lifting up
• 47:34
  cushions on the couch. I'm looking everywhere. They were in my hand the whole time. [laughs] I was holding them. Like, the, they were, they were...
• 47:42
  And I feel like sometimes, despite there being incredible operators that we're, we're featuring on the podcast here, and, and innovative thinkers, I think sometimes if we try too hard to solve a problem from the inside, we're missing so much context and other wisdom, experience, vantage points that could help, you know, strike a balance of, of new innovation and, and new ideas.
• 48:06
  And, and that's what I think is really compelling about having him admit that, and being a perpetual student with the humility to be able to come and just... Like, I, I just think magic's gonna happen at- Oh, agreed...
• 48:17
  AsotuCon with him, and, and I'm really looking forward to it. Agreed. Well, on behalf of Kyle Mountsier, Michael Cirillo, and myself, thanks for listening to the Auto Collabs podcast, retail automotive banding together.
• 48:28
  We'll see you next time. [upbeat music] Sign up for our free and fun-to-read daily email for a quick shot of relevant news in automotive, retail, media, and pop culture. You can get it now at asotu.com.
• 48:41
  That's A-S-O-T-U dot com. If you love this podcast, please leave us a review and share it with a friend. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.
• 48:52
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Auto Collabs. Welcome to Auto Collabs. [laughs] Are we recording? [laughs] Are we rolling yet? Not yet.