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Dreading Every Text From Your Ex? How to Break the Co-Parenting Conflict Cycle · The Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce

• Todd: You know these messages you might get that might be kind of loaded, right? And your heart drops, like, I see the notification from this person and I know what's coming. And it sits here with this sort of anxiety. And then as I open the message, it might say, did you pack his shoes or something? okay, so it's not one of those. It was like a totally, you know, benign message. But I had thought about it for like eight hours. We were like, wait a second, why is the system kind of putting us against each other? Like we both kind of saw that. Entering my 50s, what am I gonna how's that gonna work? And then am I gonna die a little alone, you know these sort of obvious problems. Still question marks, right? And he says, Wow, you're still married to her, aren't you? And I was like, what does that mean? And he goes, Well, 'cause you're giving her the energy. He goes, the ever you keep giving someone energy, you're maintaining that relationship. It's like you're actually divorcing your kids. And that really is not a good feeling. And I know like divorcing your kids, but you don't see them every day. And that's sort of the price you pay for like sh trying to model a healthier life. Brooke: If you were to go through this process again, what would you do differently? Todd: This is gonna sound crazy after three and a half years. I think I Brooke: To the Smart Mom's Guide to Divorce. I bet this is something that you never thought. Todd: You can say that. Brooke: and yet here we are. So you are an industrial designer, you're a dad of two kids, and you were also on a mission to help co-parents communicate more effectively after divorce. So can you tell us like how you got into that? Like, what's the story behind that? Todd: Yeah, I mean, as you said, so I'm a designer, meaning I like to think I'm someone who solves problems. And I think the one of the greatest challenges I've discovered in terms of problem solving is kind of co-parenting in a way. And so normally I make manufactured items, but but the dynamic with my ex-wife was sort of new territory. I'm like, this isn't really sustainable. This isn't, I think, healthy in some ways. And how can this be solved was sort of the process that I went through. And more from a logistical perspective, like these apps and such. So, and essentially I just put my designer hat back on and said, how can I solve it in a way that I think makes sense for life today? And that's sort of what triggered this whole journey. Brooke: Hmm. Why do you think it is difficult for co parents to have healthy communication after the divorce and even during really? Todd: Yeah. I mean, of course, I everyone's different. my experience is also different probably from my ex's. And I know we tend to sort of and to be fair, the divorce process from my experience too almost sort of codifies this sort of adversarial role. And I think it's hard to we've had moments within it actually, which is quite interesting, maybe we'll talk about where we were like, Wait a second, why is the system kind of putting us against each other? Like we both kind of saw that. but I think you get in these sort of patterns that you don't realize you I mean, you might realize they're not healthy, but I think a lot of us tend to think it's the other person or w we tend to normalize it to a certain extent. And what I noticed is you just carry that along. And these apps typically just provide a new space to carry the same pattern. And so the really the goal here was to actually shift the pattern and and help guide folks into a healthier way of engaging. And and I think Why do we maintain these things? I think, you know, I will mention my therapist many times. I mean, he had said things such as, people do what's familiar to them, maybe not what's best for them or right for them. And I think that's very fair, at least in my case. So I think that's of tends to be a reason why folks hang on to patterns. Brooke: Yeah. When you were going through or when you decided this marriage isn't working anymore, was that something that you thought about like this is gonna be difficult to communicate like during the divorce process and after? Like was that a thought? Todd: Yeah, I think there was some lots of fear I should say around boy, this is gonna be a challenge. And you know, two pretty intense people. and I think you know, I I I also it took me maybe three years to actually say, Okay, I think I'm ready to do this and so there's some ramp up to it. I also recognized having some friends that were contemplating divorce, they had pretty good relationships, you know. And so I feel for the folks where it's not so clear, do you stay? Is it good enough? Is it gonna get better? Is it is it good? Like there's a lot of gray area. You know, mine was pretty clear. It wasn't modeling a life I wanted for my children. And so I knew it was just a matter of time. which we can get into. But I think ultimately that's yeah, it's a tricky one. But it took me three about three years to get to the mindset of say, you know what, it's There's there's it's a there's gonna be a better life for my kids' experience and for our experience if we take this decision. Brooke: Yeah. It sounds very familiar because there's a lot of parents out there that have those thoughts for years and sometimes even decades. Right. And there is that fear of the unknown and what is this gonna do to my kids and how are we gonna split things and how I'm gonna live as a single parent, you know, all of those things. So it was three years for you. What were those three years like internally? Todd: Great question. it was very interesting because I'm somebody who's quite active. I like to be I love working, I love doing what I do. And but I tell you, any minute I wasn't working, I was really just sitting and I was sitting there almost silently and I felt kind of lazy about it. I felt kinda guilty, like why am I not like always working, always doing something? And a friend of mine said, Maybe that's just what you need and I thought, wow, that's like someone's giving me the sort of license To allow myself to sort of digest and process. So th that was a huge learning for me. I think as someone that tends to self-judge, like, you gotta be you know you can't take a nap or something, like you have to always keep going. And so I think to give yourself a little grace and let your body like listen to your body, I think was one of the things I really learned in that process. my therapist was amazing, someone that really provided true support. And I don't think think I've ever really felt that before. Someone that's literally says I'm here to support you and I didn't really know what that meant. It took me a few months to really understand that. And and that enabled me to take some decisions. I had to find a coach, I called it, somebody, someone to kind of jump out of the airplane with. I wasn't really ready to just fly out of the plane, you know. So so I think moments like this were sort of important for me to kind of build the confidence to am I making the right decisions and to handle these questions. Like is it best at the end of the day for the kids and Or am I gonna die in this process? Like all this kind of fear that crops up. So it's good to have some sounding boards. Brooke: Yeah. So when you so at the end of those three years and you're doing this work and you're realizing some things about yourself that this isn't what you want to model to your kids is like what a healthy marriage looks like. What were your biggest fears? Todd: One was not seeing my kids every day. I think that still kind of hurts. and I keep saying this, but I don't think it's the right language. But it's like you're actually divorcing your kids. And and that really is not a good feeling. And I know like not divorcing your kids, you're st but you don't see them every day. And that's that's sort of the price you pay for like sh trying to model a healthier life. And as a human, I can't sit there This is a really short story I'll try to tell you. I I I was interested in writing books and but I never felt seen as a father in my household. So I was writing a book basically that they that I would leave for the kids one day that they'll read. And it was meant to be published, but I don't care if anyone read it except my kids. And And I started writing it and it was how to live and how to die was what it was called. And and I thought this is like all my learnings in life and like things that are really meaningful and like this is like my advice as like a father, 'cause cause I don't think they're he exposed to it while we were married. And as I'm writing this, I said, Man, this is really hypocritical because I'm not living. I'm not in the life that I'm like writing about. And that was like the revelation for me to say, I I why write this book? Just like live it. So I just shifted gears sort of overnight. The book transformed into something else totally s totally separately, which I'm happy about. And but I just shifted how I've been living and that I think is the the best gift I could give. Brooke: Mm. Yeah. Mm-mm. So it w the so there was a fear about not seeing your kids every day. Yep. Were there other fears that just kind of consumed you when you made that decision? Todd: Financial ruin too because you know, you're working have a business and you know, it's been it's been a lot of work for a lot of years and you think, boy, there's gonna be financial cliff now. And, you know, entering my fifties, what am I gonna how's that gonna work? And there's a lot there that financial concerns for sure. am I gonna die alone? You know, these sort of obvious problems and and still question marks, right? But I think it's I center my life around my kids. So I think that was the most important logic. I can handle the rest. Brooke: I think a lot of people can relate to that. Like, am I gonna die alone? You know, what does my future look like? Right. There's this unknown, but I I like to think of it where what's worse, being alone by yourself or feeling alone when you're in a partnership. Absolutely. Todd: Yeah, absolutely. So and I think that's part of the healing in a way is finding that security when you're actually alone and feeling good about it. And not saying you might love it, but that's some moments you might and that's cool. But but I think yeah, finding that I think that's part of the work is when you get there, it's much easier to take those decisions. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. So when you enter the divorce process, and I, you know, I like to say smart women listen to all perspectives because I I'm really interested in what it was like for you as a father going through this process. You had said that as a father you didn't feel seen. So what was the divorce process like for you as a father? Todd: So that's a really big question. it changed constantly. it was Kind of a going off on an expedition in a way. yeah, it just jumped to the end, in other words, it was a three and a half year process. and to jump to the end when it f f finalized, I thought, Well, what am I gonna do now? Like it was this project's over and I wasn't ready for that. So, in other words, it's all consuming, it never goes away. Every few hours you might get a message from the lawyer or some other movement or no movement, whatever. So it's this constant energy or drain while you're trying to be present parent, while we were still living together through the process, while you're funding it, like there's all this stuff. So it becomes just this beast, you know, at least it did for me. And so that's part of the experience. I was surprised how for myself I think I was able to manage my emotions through it, but I feel as though it's an incredibly emotional experience. And a very leg I keep seeing this word logistical, but it's a very prac also practical experience. And those two don't work well together somehow. And I think that's another thing that I didn't really expect. like what does fairness mean in a conversation? We each have different views of fairness. So a lot of things come up when you ask that question. I'm happy to take any direction. Brooke: Yeah, I I love that. Let's dive deeper into what is fairness look like. Because you're right, you know, you have a perspective, your ex-wife has a perspective, and we are all entitled to our own feelings about how things went down, right? Like we can validate each other's feelings without necessarily agreeing with it. So can you talk a little bit about that and what you discovered in in that realization? Todd: Yeah, I think it's very humbling the process too. some of the things that I guess how to even it's complicated conversation. I'm not even sure I have clarity myself, so that's probably that's probably the reason why it's complicated. But what's interesting is early in the process, I remember I thought I was approaching this in the right whatever that means right way. Because of course I thought of it. So that means it must be the right way, right? That's kinda how we're all kind of wired, at least I And I remember I I sat down with her early on in this process and I drew a line down the middle of the paper, 'cause I'm kind of a drawer, and I said on the left side we have mediation, on the right side we have litigation. And I said, So here's the pros and cons. And before I even started, I got as far as I just described, it like turned into a fight. And I was like, okay, so I guess litigation it is. And like I couldn't even get into the conversation of like why I'm suggesting mediation so we can just wrap this up, you know? And like here's the things we can do and just sort of move. So and I think and I don't know what she was experiencing, maybe me lecturing her of whatever versions of hers would shut her down, which would totally be fair that I of course didn't see. I'm thinking, this is a very simple thing. It's pick which lane you want to go in. I would like this one, which do you want? And then let's agree to follow the lane. And so so I guess in terms of fairness, like I was like really upset about them. Like, I guess now we got a three year journey ahead of us of all this money and time and energy when it could have just been a little bit of a different path. And be collaborative. And you know, I kept saying I wanted to be collaborative and and I don't know if that ever landed because of the way I was serving it and or sharing it. So so I think fairness again, I didn't really hear her probably well enough. And I can only speak for myself. So I think yeah, so it's a funny it's strange when you think you're when you're in it, it become because it also became kind of transactional all of a sudden. You're like, Hey Is it A or B? As opposed to all this emotional stuff, it was pick A or B and and then maybe for her, I don't know, but maybe for her that's like, Are you crazy? Or this is a very emotional complicated thing. Why would you give me A or B? So who knows? But yeah. Brooke: Yeah. It it's so emotional and I think it's just so much full of fear, right? We're so scared that we tend to focus on what's best for us and we we can't see that other person's perspective or how this is gonna impact them because they're looking at it from a completely different lens. Yeah. and I think unfortunately a lot of people just don't have that awareness when they're going through it because it it is that fight or flight, you know, I gotta protect, protect, protect. Todd: Yeah. Brooke: But as you said, you can have that awareness all day long. If the other person doesn't have that awareness, you're still kind of so did you read anything any books, like get into any resources that really helped you to realize some of this? Stop. Todd: I did. I try at one point I was reading all the books the names are disappearing from me. Young Pueblo's books. I read the two of them at the time, I believe, which I found very helpful. I was also studying Zen Buddhism 'cause I found that really important to help me kind of center The Body Keeps the Score, which is a wonderful book. And unrelated, these are not like s divorce books. Yeah, so they're but they were self help books, I guess you could frame it. And Attachment theories, like all this stuff. And I found it really interesting because it kind of, okay, now I get it. It was me helping rationalize all this kind of messy stuff that was kind of floating around. So, and then but it was really interesting. I would come back to my therapist and then he would ask the same question until I understood it. How can I support you? And I go back to that because it's so simple. And and I would say, What do you mean? How can you support me? it doesn't make Sure, like and I'd answer I'd respond and then at the end he says you still didn't answer my question. And then I would sit there and sit there and session after session, and then I realize he actually means like he's asked me a question, like, Do you want a divorce? Do you want to stay in the divorce? Whatever you want to do, I'll help you stay there. And like I'll guide you. What do you want to do? And it so all the stuff you'd read, all the sort of meditation, you name it, it was that simple of like, what do you really want to do here? Take a decision. And then and then you go. And once you commit to it, it was like, Okay, now I'm I you feel so relieved, you know, it's like the best moment for to enter this like very difficult thing. But it was yeah, committing was the most important moment of the divorce, committing to it. Brooke: Did you ever get this sense that you were portrayed just as as the man? Because again, in my world, talking to a lot of women primarily. Yeah, the men can be seen can be portrayed as the villain in the divorce. Did you ever feel that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was that like? Todd: it's very hurtful. I think That's a really interesting question. I've not had anyone ask me that. But I think it's a lot there's a like unjust feeling 'cause if anyone understands like two sides of the story but nobody wants to hear it, or do I have a place to share it? And and there's a lot of like You know, it gets to sort of avoid getting into like personal stuff. But like there's you know, friends of mine I thought we had that relative to our relationship that suddenly like take sides and like a lot of this stuff happens. You're like, well, okay, I guess there's a narrative now and like all right and so at some point I just let it all take whatever narrative you guys want. Do whatever you want. And at some point I just stopped f arguing it, fighting it, trying to Just let it all go. And like I don't care. And so not saying it's a healthy way to handle it, but yeah, I initiated this divorce and I think that's what creates a lot of animosity. And but I think it's not clear why I initiated it. And I think that's maybe where I've failed. it might have looked like a attack across the bow as opposed to I want to do what I think is best for the kids and I think you think so too, because we've had these conversations. for years. And I remember I called her parents, I don't know if she knows this, and to say, Hey, listen, I am divorcing your daughter, but I'm not divorcing you guys. Anytime you want to see these boys, anytime you're in town, whatever, like and f but she can see anytime, but so can you guys. Like don't feel like it's off limits. Like, you know, and I thought it was important to like go around and and just be clear about the relationships. And so Yeah, I think the villainizing of someone doesn't benefit the more the person that's actually trying to villainize you. Does that make sense? Yeah. Brooke: Yeah. And I mean, not that women can't be villainized too, but you know, there I guess it depends on what circles that you hang out in. Right. you know, there could be men's circles where they're all complaining about the women and you know, whatever. But but but to your point, you know, as someone who initiated the divorce, like that can just put you, you know, in that role. Todd: Right? Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. And and that's and that's a hundred percent right what you say about men. I mean, you hear la I hear a lot of complaining from folks about, my wife this, my girlfriend, whatever. And and those yeah, like those conversations I d I don't know, maybe 'cause of my age, maybe because just how I'm wired, I just don't wanna be around. Like I it doesn't serve then why like and even when I was in my marriage that when we weren't happy, it wasn't running around saying, this is not okay. Like I knew it wasn't okay. But there's something about putting it out there into the universe and beating up a a relationship that you're fifty percent responsible for I think is just irresponsible. Brooke: Mm-hmm. Okay, so you alluded to this earlier that the process can fuel conflict. So let's talk about that. Todd: so and I don't know if it's just cause where I live or I was kept being told well COVID is why things are slow. it's this was after COVID, but apparently a backlog of divorces. I I don't really know the s true situation. But so yeah, so you have to make an agreement around children, you have to make an agreement around finances and in my case also around a business. So it became three agreements had to get built. And we started with the children and like let's we think we're pretty clear on this. We know we're gonna do fifty-fifty, like let's just bang that out. And that went on for a year and a half just to like get that decided. And now was she adversarial? I don't know. but once you now you need a lawyer and the lawyer says, well if you you know, I also know because my lawyer was saying some similar things, you can start to leverage this against that, against this other agreement part of the agreement that hasn't happened yet. Like it starts to become complicated And like, no, I just wanna like sort out the agreement with the children and the whole thing if we can and just move on. so and like hurler was very non-communicative and it went on for like months. We wouldn't hear anything. the one thing the system was good for, I believe, is just very slow, but it was there to protect the children. So it got to a point where we kept meeting with the judge and the judge is like, Listen, if you guys don't resolve this thing, I'm gonna step in and you're not gonna like it. So it kind of forced some action and each of these steps of the process kind of had to get to that point. And for some reason, while it's entangled with the lawyers, it wouldn't move. It got to the point where I alluded to earlier, that even with my ex wife, I'm like, hey, what's going on with your guys? And she's like, I don't know. What's going on with yours? I'm like, I don't know. Like we're both kinda like, Why the heck is this entangled? And so we would align, we'd of dip into moments of like unity, of like, it's us against the lawyers. And I I think they did At least I feel like mine did a reasonably good job. I'm happy with him, but but at the end of the day, yeah. And I remember even asking him, like, what's your compensation, like, motivation here? Like, isn't it to take forever? and I think he had a clever reply, he says no, to be referred to. And I thought, Fair enough. But you're also gonna want to build forever, right? You know, and so I think there's this kind of funny world, right? That I think some of it some of it they exploit. Some of it is the lack of understanding. So me and my ex in the situation. We don't know. So we're thinking this is normal. so it's a lot of that stuff, even when me and her are like actually sitting on the sofa being like, actually I'm we're aligned here. So like what's the problem? So that's kind of what I mean. This like system kind of fans this adversarial role a bit. Brooke: Yeah. And it's really interesting because a lot of people think that when you decide you're gonna get divorced, you run out and you get an attorney. Right. And sometimes when you do that, you are committing to a much more expensive and difficult divorce because, like you said, they can, well, we should go after this and we can do this and all all of these things. And because you are scared and you just want to protect yourself, you're like, okay, I'm just gonna do what my lawyer says, right? And in doing that, sometimes we can go against maybe our values, not intentionally, but as you said, you were just like, I just wanna do this. I sat with my wife, we agreed, I wanna get this done, but yet I've committed to this attorney, and now they're. doing all of these things, right? And you just kind of feel stuck. So I I just think that people don't necessarily understand what they're getting themselves into when they go through this process. Well Todd: Yeah, it's well said. I think you're absolutely right. You kind of get swept up into the process. I recognize it's some some situations, maybe through custody or with the the private business or finances, I don't know. that you it's probably highly recommended you get a lawyer. Like I I don't know when like what that threshold is. but I can say this was kind of an interesting piece of advice that I observed and my Therapist also, again, I'll keep bringing him up, had mentioned he goes, D does your lawyer understand her emotional state. And I was like, Of course. And he you're sure about that. And and it was an important comment because he he says, Otherwise, Todd, you he will fall into the same patterns that you have in your marriage, where your communication will kind of keep going in circles and not click. And I'm sure again she has her own version, right? And if you understand the emotional state of this person, which I didn't for a long time, you will just fall into this trap and so will he, and therefore you're gonna be in this for a long time. And and I think at the end of this whole process he then finally understood, but it was like three years in. so I think that's an important important observation. If you're dealing with let's say an intense or emotional situation, I think finding the lawyers that if you have to go down the route or mediators. That actually have that sensitivity to understanding, I think that really does help open up because it's like forcing someone to agree to something. When they're wired to never agree, you're gonna be in this for a long time. But if you find a way that they're able to have a open dialogue and and navigate sort of collectively, I think then you can really make progress. So and I think that's when it worked best was when me and her would actually say, Why don't we just have this conversation? And then like we kind of do the best we can. imperfectly but we got through it enough to then throw it back to the lawyers and said just kind of draw it up. Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And people do have that right. I mean, it's your life, right? And I think that gets lost on people too is you are hiring an attorney to provide a service to you. So the you are still in the driver's seat. Yes. And a lot of people forget that. And it's like, I gotta, you know, I gotta let my attorney do their thing. It's like, no, you're still driving the ship. Todd: Completely and to the point where like I you said it earlier, the your values and I think that's really important. I he always would send every single communication to me and never and hopefully they all do this and they won't just send it on your behalf without your approval. I almost rewrote every single one of them. I would take all the all the hostility out. I'm like, What are we doing? This isn't like what I believe in. So he would advise against it and I said, I don't care. This is not how I like to operate. So but it was fair we'd have that that's what he's there for, is to kind of be a pushback, I don't guess, right? And as a professional. But I didn't let my values get compromised in the process. And I think that's something that to your point, as a reminder to folks in this process, like, yeah, you you don't have to just follow their leadership blindly, like you're actually the leader here. Brooke: Yeah, because there are a lot of people that, you know, can do that un like unknowingly. Just, you know, let their let their attorney send all of this really harsh language to the other side, which creates more conflict, which isn't good for anyone. Right? It makes the divorce more expensive and it can really harm that co parenting relationship, which is really critical when you have young kids. Yep. You know, you're gonna be in each other's lives for a really long time. And it's important for your kids to see somewhat of a healthy dynamic. And I'm sure there's people out there that are like, well, I try, I do my best on my side, but the other person isn't. And as much as I want to give them a healthy dynamic, it's just not possible in my situation. So I want to acknowledge those people, but also I don't think that's necessarily a reason to give up and to accept it, right? There's always something we can do. Todd: Do. I mean, I'm not a therapist here, but that's for sure. But I I think there's a sign there because I d I think there's no situation. May again I'm not a therapist here, and please don't hunt me down if I'm wrong here. But I think I think there's no situation where the other person is wrong or completely wrong. I think it's you our failure to hear them in a way that that might they might need more flexibility to understand them, whatever it may be, but they're also trying to communicate something. And I think to say, they're wrong or they're crazy or they're whatever, even on s the surface level, even deeper, it might read that way. I still don't believe that anyone is actually there. I think it's really the challenge is how to be in a way that really keeps yourself respect that enables you to actually hear where they're coming from. Mm-hmm. Brooke: Yes, but and there are high conflict people out there. Yeah. And again, that goes back to how they were raised and maybe their personal traumas, childhood traumas, whatever it is. so I agree with you in that they have their own experience and they're not necessarily wrong. it's hard to say that when you're on the receiving end of some really harsh communication. But it it is something to just question like what are you doing to fan those flames or to you know to put them out. Todd: I w the my Zen teacher at the time, I remember asking him, I said, How you know, it's very like peaceful gentleman. I remember asking him, Hey, I'm dealing with this, you know, divorce situation and and I'm really angry at her. I'm like, how do I like l let go of this and like actually not be so angry, you know? and and I said but And but the good news is I feel pretty good right now. Meanwhile I'm in this room and where I'm I d I don't I'm not angry right now. And he goes, Okay, that's good. You're not angry right now right now And he says, But your goal would be to not be angry when she's in the room and I thought, that's a whole nother animal and then he made this sort of comment, he goes, And if you can figure that out, let me know And I realized that this is you know, I was beating myself up also of like Why why am I holding on to whatever, you know? And so it's cool to hear from this folks, these these guys that it's hard. And so there's a place we have to get there. Which and the good news is I th I think I actually just recently got there, so Brooke: great, great. so if you were to go through this process again, what would you do differently? Todd: Wow. I think I'd try to s this is gonna sound crazy after three and a half years. I think I'd slow it down. I think slow is fast. tr which I tried to go kind of fast, like okay, let's just get this done. And that made it slow. Cause it I think it was like a fire hose moment for her, is what I think. And that's I think one aspect. because it really boils down to I'm generalizing like five or six like bigger decisions, actually. You know, are you fifty fifty with the kids? Like, what's the financial situation? Like, how do you want to resolve that? I mean, do you trade holidays or not? Like it's kind of whatever. It's like that's kind of it. It's not like millions of decisions. I mean, there's a lot underneath it, but so and I think understanding that now and kind of putting all that on the table earlier and just saying, Hey, this is all that's here. Can we just like take three weeks, take whatever you need like come back with some ideas around this, I'll do the same. And or we just talk through it. Because I think instead we were like reading an encyclopedia from like the beginning through the whole thing to the end. And that made it this like long, like boring, difficult to find the one line item that that was like, do you want to split 50-50? Yes. okay. Cool. I read like 85 pages to find that one and now I keep reading. So I think that's sort of the analogy of how I've experienced this divorce. It just like the slog as opposed to like give me the highlights that I really care about. Once we're good there, the rest will follow. And I think that's what I would have would do differently, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Brooke: Yeah, and that is I think the thing that is most difficult is how far into the weeds do you get in the parenting plan? Because you have some parents that didn't go into the weeds and then they have a lot of conflict afterwards and they wish that they would have set those ground rules early on. But then to your point, if you're getting into those things too granularly during the process, it can slow it down, it can create conflict that just continues to resonate. Todd: So if this helps, because it's I'm entering this right now. so I have no idea what I had no idea what like a five two two five schedule was so that our custody schedule with the kids. Of course you can choose seven seven, you can do all these versions of, right? And we chose five two two two five because we were told it was a good idea. So okay. Because we wanna see our kids, but we can't do like one one one. You know, it has to be has to be somewhat yeah, realistic. So and now we're in it. Yeah, I go, this doesn't make sense because then for like these weeks, I won't see them for like whatever weekends in a row. And then for her, she won't see them for whatever weekends in a row. It becomes a little like, this isn't what I expected. So we're together we're like, actually, we should just change that. okay. So like now that we're in it. So there's a lot of the stuff you can't predict and and it kind of is okay to just do what you want after the agreement as long as you both agree to it. And and I think that's like a learning I didn't expect. I thought, forever we have to follow this framework that we don't understand yet. So I think give yourself time to say it's okay. Hey, I don't know if this is gonna work. If the challenge is if it works for her and not for me, it's in the agreement. You do have to live with it as far as I understand. but but see how it goes. And if there's things that you guys say, Hey, you know what, I would prefer it to be a little different, then sh then just do it differently as long as just agree to it and keep going. And I think that's cool and that's that's the flexibility I think folks should do. Brooke: Absolutely. And that's a flexibility that you can get when you prioritize good co parenting relationships. Yep. Yeah. Because if you have a very contentious relationship, you're not gonna be getting that flexibility. Yep. And and that is one of the things that I tell everybody that I talk to that's in a contentious relationship. It's like prioritize that relationship as best you can because then it's like, can I switch weekends? Yeah, you know, sure. Right. Todd: Yeah, and that's interesting 'cause mine was pretty contentious and for a long time. And I recently had some travel and hey, can you take the kids? Can we do a swap? and then next week can you swap? and then like three days later, actually another swap, it became like all of a sudden and I thought she'd say, Well now I'm gonna murder you because this is like and and she was like, It's cool. I'm like, I appreciate it, it's cool and then she's now asked for a swap. I'm like, Cool. And like so something has shifted I know it does get easier when you're physically separate. Again, we did the whole process while we were literally living in the same Brooke: I cannot imagine that. Todd: in your in a small apartment in the in New York City is not exactly spacious. But so that does help. But I think that's only part of it. I think the other part of it is you have to do your work, you gotta you gotta let go of stuff. Otherwise you're just gonna like mangle the co parenting experience too. So So part of it's a separation, but part of it is you have to really be intentional about what kind of experience you wanna have. Mm-hmm. Brooke: So when you had this initial idea. So you have an app, it's called Clearly, right? It's it's people are probably familiar with talking parents and some of the other apps out there, right? So so you had this idea. So like what was that moment where you're like, what exists is not good enough and I think we need something better. Todd: Yeah, I think again being designer, I tend to see things around me saying, you know what, this or that can be better. There's good there's always a better solution out there. And we we were using our family wizard, we're using two houses, we were trying these different things. And also she's a very similar mindset and we're both looking at this thing, well, this is kind of not such a nice experience, frankly, and a bit dated or a bit flat. but also some things didn't work, they weren't very intuitive. but the layer that I was most interested in was y we didn't have the healthiest dynamic as a marriage. And so I you you know these messages you might get that that might be kind of loaded, right? And and your heart drops, like, I see the notification from this person and I know what's coming. And it sits there. And it sits there with this sort of anxiety, you know, at least for me. And and then as I open the message, it might say, did you pack his shoes or something? I thought, okay. So it's not one of those. It was like a totally, you know, benign message. And but I had thought about it for like eight hours. I'm thinking, and if this is something urgent, I don't I need to open it, but I'd not ready mentally or emotionally to open it. Like it was just kind of this whole journey every time a message would come in, not knowing what kind of experience I'm going to have, like what trigger. So I thought that was the idea there was how can I like negate that sort of trauma action and or response and just instead create this app which basically handles in a way as a mediator. It's built on the Harvard negotiation framework, which we could talk a bit about and it serves across essentially what matters only uses AI. It analyzes the message that's been natively written by the user. And it repackages it in only what matters. It takes all the emotion out, all the historical baggage out, and it serves only that. So you know as the receiver, you're gonna get just what matters. And there's there's no bait there, there's nothing to trip on. but you do have the original message that's available to the to you should you wanna you tap and hold and you'll reveal that, which is also on the records because it's all part of these apps, which is necessary. So the big conclusion here was just I wanted to have a way to communicate that still send across, of course, the facts and information that's critical for successful co-parenting, but to really help move aside the patterns that kind of didn't serve in the marriage, if that makes sense. Brooke: Yeah. Todd: Another thing we added, which I love, is I know a lot of folks again don't want to say yes to something. Like it's for whatever reason, again, not not a psychologist here, but I know some people just yeah don't want to say yes, I agree with you. Like they just won't. So they'll just stonewall. They just won't respond. Mm-hmm. or if it's a no, they'll not respond. So like not response is kind of another sort of tactic, a kind of unhealthy communication tactic. So we have this there's sort of two ways we solve it. One is is we've sort of pipeline the conversation to resolution so that we're trying to get to resolution here. We're not just communicating in a loop. So you'll see in the app there's like a demo mode where you can go in, it says explore sample data at the bottom. And it lets sort of experience what a a a current family is using, we'll say a divorced couple, I guess. And so it's it lets you see how a conversation moves through to to resolution. So it's nice. So this closure, it's not these like open ended things. But the one I really like is when did you pack his or her shoes, it recognizes hey, this is just a yes or no question. The the app recognizes this, so it doesn't have to go through this elaborate thing. It just says, Would you like me to send this as a yes or no? And you say go. and then what the receiver gets is did you pack the shoes? You just tap yes or no. And you don't have to even say yes. You don't even have to, you can just tap yes or no. And if you have to open into some dialogue, you can convert it into a topic. But point being, I try to just make it low friction, fast, like I don't need to spend 30 minutes the right thing. I just need to go. I think a lot of folks are already writing in AI and write and bringing it back over, so they're already splitting their time between these two apps. so we're just baking it in. yeah, it was just like what else can we just fix? And that was the goal. Brooke: Yeah. I think it is a lot easier to just click a button than to type out yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But interestingly, so I listened to a lot of Chris Voss, who I don't know, do you know Chris Voss? and he was saying that people don't want to say yes. They're better at not saying no. Which I think is interesting. It's the same idea. Yeah. Yeah. So I I think all of that stuff and just how our mind works and how we talk to people, it's it's really beneficial for people to understand these concepts in the divorce and co-parenting space because it can really change a lot of things. Todd: I think so. I think there's like little kind of hacks in a way that really helps make life easier and and more effective. The goal is to be a better co parent to like for your kids. That's the goal here. See even if you have baggage and history with your partner, your ex partner, that's fine, fair enough. But you still need to like be present for your kids. And like that's the whole point of this whole whole thing. The good news is for me and my ex is we both love our kids and we both want the same thing for our kids and that's good. But we might have different pathways to Or interpretations of what that looks like. So again, this app sort of neutralizes the kind of emotional bit and lets us see, yeah, we do still care about the same thing. Mm-hmm. Brooke: So let's talk about patterns, because we talked about this a little bit before. Patterns that exist between co-parents who communicate well and the patterns for those that struggle with it. What do you see parents doing wrong? And what have you seen from parents who were doing it right? Todd: Well, I I couldn't answer either of those. I can say for myself specifically, but it's a it's a great question. I think what I love about this idea of the this Harvard negotiation framework so is it's really goes back to and it's funny, I took in the in the app I I sort of early on I was sort of practicing like demoing this thing and seeing does this really work? And I wrote this kind of like Common message that I might write to my ex. And and and it highlights, at least in the earlier version I made, it highlights everything and it kind of says, okay, this is what matters, this is what doesn't. Like it kind of shows me what it's thinking. And it highlighted the whole thing to one word that mattered. All the rest was like it didn't matter. And I thought, that's kind of got it wrong. You know, I'm like, this is this can't be right. And so I it it shown a light on that. Like even what I think makes perfect sense. Even what I think is like not emotional and like very kind of clear. It wasn't true. It was still like you remember that thing from three years ago? Like it was still touching on something, a nerve that I was unaware that I was still touching on. So so I think that's like an example of a pattern that it's you know, not to say it needs to be robotic and kind of just totally sanitize language. That's that's not it either. but I think it's about shifting the mindset to like what's really actually positive, what's actually gonna bring them joy, what's actually gonna move like us in a healthier direction, like and stepping through that. And it's kind of difficult. It's like that moment of becoming conscious. And I have like my young my youngest son, he goes to these kind of meltdowns and and I have a deal with him. I said, he'll get grumpy and just sort of shut down and and get kind of mean, you know? And and I'm like, You can do that. But just raise your hand when you want out. Just like put your hand up. And then you get a hug and like it's all good. And like we continue. And it's like like like not to say nothing ever happened, but for that moment, you're out of that character, so to speak, and you're now present again. You're now conscious. And it's beautiful. I'll see him raise his hand and all of a sudden he's like back to his old self and we can talk through what happened there and like and and he's a ma it's amazing. It's just like boom. He like breaks that pattern. But you know these dreams you have when you You're like wanna wake up, but you're like trapped in your body, like shit. I wanna like wake up. I'm I'm conscious, but I can't move my body. You feel like paralyzed. It's going from this unconscious to this conscious state, and it's like physically impossible. Like you feel paralyzed. And I think that's the pattern. And when you're in writing, when you're in this sort of communication, I should say, you have to feel you go, there's that wall that you feel, and like you need to step through that. to like actually get to a healthier way of communicating. And I think that's what to look for if you follow me. Brooke: yeah. I mean, I think that is a pattern that we are living so much of our lives unconsciously. I think they've done studies and it's like close to ninety percent of our life is just unconscious, you know, behavior because we're just doing the same things over and over again. Wake up, you brush your teeth, you you know, get your coffee, you take the dog out, whatever it is. And and that's absolutely true with communication, you know, especially like if you get triggered. we have a tendency to respond in a certain way when we're triggered. So so what I hear you saying is we just need to, you know, gain that awareness at that moment and pull ourselves out of that unconscious, you know, repetitive behavior and just, you know, choose to do something different. Todd: Yeah, I mean well said. And it's the outcome. What outcome are you like outcome are you do you want? Mm-hmm. And do you want this person to be triggered? Do you want like do you want to keep the loop going? Like what is it you're looking for here? And and take the time, take the space not to respond right away, things like this, some of your more practical decisions that help. so you're not like kind of fueling conversation, instead it separates time a bit. and I've noticed in this framework we also move the conversation less to me to you and more into a third space. So I'm not asking you necessarily to agree to this. It's I was thinking this and you that's another part of it, like breaking the pattern of like what what about you and it's more about what I feel and you can welcome to be what you feel. And I'm not gonna assume what you feel. And I think so like finding these patterns shifting to this third space becomes much easier to discuss and sort of negotiate to use those words around This topic as opposed to a direct conversation. I'm looking for a yes or no. Because that that for a lot of people, it's really hard for them to say yes. Brooke: Yeah, it is. And I think that what I know of the work that you're talking about, like getting to yes is a book that I have. It might be on that shelf behind me. and also Bill Eddy from the Con Conflict Institute, his Biff framework, which I talk to my clients about all the time, you know, it's taking the emotion out and it's like, what do you need to communicate? Correct, yeah. You know, you don't need to yell and like via text about you forgot the shoes again, you're worthless, you know, all of that stuff. It's like please make sure to bring the shoes next time. Boom, done. Yeah, exactly. Todd: Exactly. And it it's very effective. And you know, one of the things again my my therapist used to say, he's you know, I got a message from her and I'm like, you know, it kind of throws me off for the it sort of throws me off for the day. I'm completely like, no, like I I gotta like deal with this now and he says, Wow, you're still married to her, aren't you? I was like, what does that mean? And he goes, Well, because you're giving her the energy. He goes, the ever you keep giving someone energy, you're maintaining that relationship. Doesn't mean you you're you don't have any relationship, but that's still that was your marriage that you're maintaining. I thought, wow, yeah, at that moment. Cause I spent like six hours thinking about this message. And when I'm trying to like live the rest of my life right now. So it's kind of interesting, right? And and I and I do think though, this is maybe w a deeper conversation, but I don't want to say part of me likes that because part of me is like, you know, I care about this person for a part, big part of my life, and we have kids. And like, so maybe part of me feels bad if it becomes purely transactional. So I'm trying to find this like middle ground where it's not just like some robot that I'm like talking to. Cause I don't really want that either, you know. So, but it is interesting that it that there is some kind of new territory that I'm think we've might have recently found that feels caring and kind of And calm, supportive, empathetic, things that we didn't have in the marriage. And and that's okay too. It's not like, too bad we didn't have it. It's no, it's okay. Here we are. Brooke: Yeah. But when you do a reset, right? Like I think about it as like a new colleague. You're not going to get emotional and text. It is going to be more transactional with that person. And sometimes when you do a reset, it does need to be transactional, but then it can evolve and get, you know, more like, I don't know, just more relaxed and and and chill and more personalized once you've had that reset. But we have to recognize that when we are in an elevated state and when there has been conflict that maybe we just can't handle that right now. And maybe transactional is fine for now. Doesn't mean it's gonna be like that forever, but maybe that's gonna get us to that place eventually. Todd: I think that's really well said. There there's an emotional overwhelm, I think, that we can hold for a long time. I'm like, wow, I'm saturated. So any kind of moral in emotion, I just don't respond well or positively to it. at my so I had my youngest son's birthday was in December and and interestingly enough, so just a few months ago and it was a non collaborative event. Like in fact it it was a weird game of, well, I ran the birthday party without you and I wasn't there and like, well that's pretty awful. And my son was like, Where were you? You know, I'm like, Well, I didn't know. So there's a lot of this kind of stuff happening. And when I tried to get in front of that by messages earlier on saying it would be great to do this collaboratively. And so like these weird games and that like really made me upset. It was very frustrating and ruined like a month of my life like thinking about this. And and then as we approached my other son's birthday, I don't know if I pinged her first. I feel like I was saying so I kind of tried to say like Let's try it again, like a collaborative approach. But I felt like I don't know why I don't remember what happened because it was just real recently, but I think I sent something like that. But she right away wrote back, Hey, I was thinking we can do this here together. And it was like very collaborative approach all of a sudden. So I think she was like, Yeah, that was probably not a great experience for anyone. For me, it's like it's his the boy's birthday. Like, what do they want to do? Like it shouldn't matter. Even if we hate each other, it shouldn't matter. It's whatever they want. But it became this collaborative event. and I saw her there and she she planned it and she organized it and she invited everyone. I just showed up, so it was like I did nothing. And and I said, you know, thank you for planning all this. And I saw a mom that cares about her kids that wanted me to be there and and I was very thankful this kind of like a like human experience, you know. And that's just something that you know, as we go forward as she remarries or I whatever, like I can appreciate we still have these are our kids. Mm-hmm. And and I think that was felt. Like I think that's where we are. I think we s finally see that. And it's not a me versus you. It's like what can we do for them? Brooke: Yeah. Yeah. And that that can be really difficult when you are newly divorced and you're separate, but you're used to doing things a certain way. You're used to doing the birthdays together. You're used to doing these things together. Maybe one person is fine continuing to do those things that way and the other person isn't. And they want to do something separate. And there is a tendency to resist that change. And can keep us, you know, stewing on it for, like you said, a month, right? Because you're resisting that. And that's something that, you know, people should consider, you know, accepting. Like I want this to be this way because I hear this all the time. I mean, people like you can there's a dark cloud over them for a very long time because they're not it things aren't done in a certain way. And it can be beneficial to just say, okay, it's not gonna be like this this way. It is gonna be okay. And maybe it's for the best because you don't want your child's birthday to be about you guys. You want it to be about your child. You want Todd: Completely. Brooke: them to have a good time and not feel that stress because you know, if you're stressed and your spouse is stressed and you're in that environment, you don't think other people can feel that? Todd: Hundred percent. I gave her a hug for the first time in years at my son's birthday. And I noticed just to say thank you. And I've genuinely felt like thrilled to see her. And I said, Thank you for organizing all this. Like she literally did everything. And and then I saw the corner of my eye, my youngest son, his like face like exploded when he saw this. And I realized like he hasn't seen a hug, I don't think ever, you know, who knows? And You can see he was just like amazed to see that. Yeah. And it was cool. I'm like I'm glad he saw it, I guess, because genuinely was happy to see her. Brooke: Yeah. It it is. It's important. And yeah, it it's a realization that I think can really benefit people going through this is just understanding that yes, things are going to be different and that is okay. Yeah. Just because it's not the same that it's always been. And I I can tell you my kids love having two birthday parties. You know? Right. They're like, wait, we get two different opportunities, you know, like we get extra Christmases. Todd: To exploit us, yeah, yeah exactly. Brooke: Exactly. Exactly. They're like they're all fine with it. So, you know, I I think that you know, we just need to do a better job of considering alternatives, right? Instead of just, you know, saying that the way that we always did it is is the right way. There's lots of different ways. Todd: And it won't be perfect. I had missed an award ceremony at the school. I had no idea. They told my ex wife, they didn't tell me. I don't know why that happens, I guess. She didn't tell me 'cause she assumed I knew, fair enough. and I completely missed it. And my son won two awards and and he was like the proudest day of his life and I wasn't even there. And and when I saw him this week, you know, I I said I didn't know. And And I'm sorry wasn't there. It doesn't take away how proud I am and his accomplishment. That doesn't change any of it. And I and I said, unfortunately things like this are gonna happen. And I've never missed anything, nothing in their lives, and all of a sudden like this. So yeah, and I could there was no excuse. There was no it's just gonna happen. So I'm sort of choosing to kind of let it go and not not feel terrible about it the rest of my life. so that's the other side of it, is things are gonna happen. Brooke: Yeah. And, you know, earlier when I was asking you about the books, you were saying, Well, there was a lot of self help books and not necessarily divorce books. I I would encourage people to look into different books that are just not about divorce because one of the books that really helped me on my journey was Ecartoli's The Power of Now or It was a New Earth or one of those, right? He's got a lot of things. But it is about pulling us out of those negative places. And what is going on now so that we aren't stewing about it. Because you know, one of the things that's really hard when your kids go off to the other parent for the first time. For me, I was just sobbing, like eating a bunch of ice cream and like, you know, doing all this stuff, like my kids are not here. but after a while you start to appreciate that time. It doesn't mean that you don't miss your kids, but you can appreciate that time and you have a choice. You can use that weekend to just be miserable. Or you can allow yourself to be in the present moment. There's nothing you can do about it. Your kids are going to be gone whether you're upset or you're not. Right. And it's like giving people permission to enjoy their life. Todd: Yeah. A hundred percent right. And, you know, again, I'm not a therapist, but if you you know, really dig deep of, you know, I'm not having a great marriage and my my job's not great, whatever, like go through the list or my relationship with friends or family is not great, like whatever, right? It's the at the source of it tends to be a a a a very individual personal unhappiness or dissatisfaction, whatever it may be, for at least in my opinion. And I think So it's less about like fixing a marriage or fixing the job and and more about like what is it I really want in this life? And I think addressing that fundament the foundation, sort of the the underlying core of everything, then the rest becomes kind of easier. Not easy, but at least it gives you some type of guardrails to which to live by. And so for me, yeah, I agree with you. I don't not so sure like reading a divorce book or is is sort of the right one, not so you shouldn't. but when I was really working on the self help books, it really helped me kind of recalibrate what kind of life to actually want. Now the question is would that have saved the marriage? I don't know. And doesn't matter at this point, but but I think the sooner everyone can be self aware the better. and then the rest come what may. Brooke: Many moms listening out there are struggling. They are hurt, they're scared, they're frustrated, they might be angry, and maybe they're just unsure of what to do. What's something that you think they should know? Todd: boy. I feel terrible. anyone's like struggling through anything. Number one. There's a lot there. Like I I've had like a major death in my family and at some point I chose it to be seen as something very beautiful. I was like, wow or I can dig a hole, you know, like choose. So sure some days I dig a hole, but like there's a lot of beauty in this. And I think for folks that are really going through it, you know, recalibrate on yourself. That's like the first thing. The moment I stopped, I know this is sort of a funny one, but my Zen teacher it was really interesting. I my kids understand this well. I've shared this with them is and I obviously I'm gonna butcher this, but he was explaining to me that these motions are like storms in the sky. And okay and he says, and they'll just come and pass. And he says, And you are the sky, so don't worry about it. And I remember that really helps me. It helps my kids a lot. Like they realize like they're feeling angry or they're upset. It's okay. It's it's gonna blow over. And it doesn't mean you're not left with pain. It doesn't mean, you know, you're not rebuilding something like it. There's a lot there. but when I think about folks that are really struggling, you gotta protect yourself in a way that's healthy. get to the gym, get outside, go for walks, eat healthy, like It all starts there, you know. Yeah, I wish I I wish I could take people's pain away when I see them. I feel bad and it really kills me to see people struggling. And but there's something that and this is maybe again a very generalized statement and there's some folks dealing with some things that I can't even imagine, it's for sure. but there's something in I go to the gym, I go for a walk. Have a nice meal and suddenly life's not so bad for a little bit. And that's like a good moment of like, Okay, build on that. You know what I mean? And and then tomorrow build on that and just kind of small steps. Brooke: Yeah, yeah. That's what I tell people when you know when their kids are away and they're really struggling, do something that you couldn't do when they were here, something that you really enjoy and just allow yourself to be in the moment doing that thing. Todd: Well said. You'll find out that there's yeah, I forgot I like these things or I forgot to that this is an enjoyable part of whatever and 'cause you never had time. Especially as a mom, you're like always like head down doing things and and it's weird and freaky at first when it's suddenly quiet at home and you know, you're cooking by yourself or whatever for yourself. Like it's weird and But suddenly you can cook what you want, or suddenly you can, you know, take the nap you wanted to, or whatever. Suddenly you can do the things that you felt bad about, or at least I did, when the kids were running around. and it gives you a chance to restore for when they are running around. And and then suddenly you're even better than you might have been. At least that's been my case. You know, I can recharge so that when they're there, I'm like, bam, I'm there. I I kind of stopped working for a period now just to like. Be with the kids. When they're there, I don't do anything. I take those days. I pick them up from school. I'm the nanny and I love it. It's the best thing. Because I know I don't get to do that forever. So I didn't expect that. I thought, you know, keep working and but now I spend you know two and a half weeks during the week of like not doing anything but being with them. It's two and a half days of the week, sorry. And it's amazing. So allow yourself to kind of discover what. works for you, that helps you feel like you're healing. Mm-hmm. Brooke: Is there anything else that you wanted to share that we haven't talked about? Todd: I don't know. This is super interesting to me. I other than I hope I'm not generalizing anyone or marginalizing anyone's experiences 'cause everyone's got a totally different experience. And I used to think, mine is the worst ever experience. And then and even as we talk through it, I go I don't know if it was that bad. So I think whatever we however we might be labeling things It almost serves no purpose. You know, at some point it's like w I don't it doesn't matter if it was bad actually. Congratulations, Todd. It was terrible. Does that help? So I think at some point the sooner we let go of kind of the label and just say, All right, how do we help each other and help the kids? You know, then then it starts to become pretty good actually. So yeah. Brooke: Yeah. And I I think that's one of r the beautiful things about meeting other people that are in your situation and why I have a support group and why I encourage anybody around the world to find people who are going through it because then you realize like, wait, maybe I didn't have the worst experience. Not to be comparing, but just just to have that dose of perspective of like There's a lot of things out there that people are dealing with. And, you know, yes, it hurts. And yes, it's hard for me, but you know, I could be dealing with that. And and that would feel more horrible. Right. And so I I don't know. I think we could just all use a really good dose of perspective. Todd: Well said. I agree. Brooke: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming all the way to Chicago to have this conversation. Happy to. It was really it was really great. And I hope that that moms out there can can really relate to your story and just to hear the male perspective. I think that's really important. so I appreciate the vulnerability that you shared and I think that moms out there might also want to check out your app. So I will make sure to link to it in the show notes so people can check it out and see if it might work for their family. But I do appreciate you taking the time to come all this way. Todd: being here and really thanks thanks for this chat. I'm learning a lot from it as well. So thank you. Brooke: Great, great, thank you. All right.